Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Patients Experiences => Topic started by: heelsunderhead on November 06, 2021, 10:15:37 PM
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People looking for LL in Greece have rights to know what can happens. Ask the doctor giotikas how to prevent this from happening to you. Knowledge is power. I don't say who is to blame but my dear friend had LL surgery in September in Greece and has been unconscious for many days since physical therapy and possible infarction. You hear the risks but you do not believe it will be you. Maybe just chance but may be needs a change in protocol. They will soon remove life support. He has GNail. He was strong person. 30 years. Everyone is too afraid to talk. Don't go alone.
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a? what do you mean? is your friend fine now? anything irretrievable?
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Did Dr Giotikas make any comments about the incident? Does everything continue as per usual? Are there any concerns about the Guichet nail? Does the ratcheting mechanism cause increase in swelling and chance of PE? I am a bit scared as I was making plans to get Guichet nail.
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a? what do you mean? is your friend fine now? anything irretrievable?
They are brain dead. It happened in the 6th week of lengthening and he was only given 2 weeks of Xeralto (blood thinner). So far I've seen maybe 4 deaths from LL and all of them were from DVT/PE. One this, another that indian guy whose sister wrote the blog about it and another 2 were in India (1 African girl and 1 indian girl). Maybe there are more that are not public.
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People looking for LL in Greece have rights to know what can happens. Ask the doctor giotikas how to prevent this from happening to you. Knowledge is power. I don't say who is to blame but my dear friend had LL surgery in September in Greece and has been unconscious for many days since physical therapy and possible infarction. You hear the risks but you do not believe it will be you. Maybe just chance but may be needs a change in protocol. They will soon remove life support. He has GNail. He was strong person. 30 years. Everyone is too afraid to talk. Don't go alone.
Can you provide us proof? I in contact with a few current patients in Athens, no one heard of this guy. Is this fake news? Look like this is you first post.
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Can you provide us proof? I in contact with a few current patients in Athens, no one heard of this guy.
All patients in Athens know this. If they don't know, they are not patients or they are really ignorant.
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Can somebody clarify what exactly happened to this patient? People seem to be implying the reason he had DVT/PE is due to not being prescribed Xarelto more than 2 weeks. Someone said he had it after a PT session and the taxi driver drove off which made matters worse...
Just curious because Giotikas is currently at the top of my list for future LL'ing and it would be helpful to know exactly what happened.
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Can somebody clarify what exactly happened to this patient?
How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.
Email them and ask them yourself.
info@athensbjr.com
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How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.
Email them and ask them yourself.
info@athensbjr.com
Some people have implied they were close with the patient, so I assumed we'd have more information than hearsay.
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How can other patients know "exactly" what happened? Of course, it's all anecdotes. It's not like every patient knows what exactly happened to everyone.
Email them and ask them yourself.
info@athensbjr.com
Agree. I would ask them directly if i were to have my surgery there and needed responsible answers. You can't really expect to find anything but gossip here
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Agree. I would ask them directly if i were to have my surgery there and needed responsible answers. You can't really expect to find anything but gossip here
It would not be right for them to disclose what happened to a patient. They can generally explain how they can save you from PE but not go into the details of any particular patient.
Remember, if not for some of the patients writing about it here, we would have never found out. It's not like their team would proactively write "Hi, your surgery is scheduled for next month so we are writing to you to inform you about a recent mishap for full transparency......."
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The decision to prescribe blood thinners depends not only on the surgery but also on the patient's own risk factors. Taking blood thinners does not reduce the risk of DVP/ PTE to zero. Everyone should know that having LL surgery comes with a risk of death / permanent impairment.
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The decision to prescribe blood thinners depends not only on the surgery but also on the patient's own risk factors. Taking blood thinners does not reduce the risk of DVP/ PTE to zero. Everyone should know that having LL surgery comes with a risk of death / permanent impairment.
It reduces the chances by 99%. No patient died by blood clots where surgeons give blood thinners. Don't buy into this bs. Blood thinners are very important.
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You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?
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@overandover and @LLSouthAmerica you are oth right. Blood thinners do reduce the risk of thrombosis significantly but it can still happen and patients have indeed died from PE whilst on blood thinner. i.e. the risk is reduced a lot but nover eliminated.
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You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?
Plenty? :'( What are the odds according to you?
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You don't know what you are talking about. I've seen plenty of patients die of blood clots even using blood thinners. Are you a doctor?
Any source to claim your comment? any link? or is it just your imagination?
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Any source to claim your comment? any link? or is it just your imagination?
Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.
Plenty? :'( What are the odds according to you?
I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.
However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.
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Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.
I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.
However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.
It is hard for us laypeople to find such papers. Could you find some research when you have a moment (for fracture nailing) as you are a medical professional?
I really am not able to decide without knowing the chances of pulmonary embolism. If there is a 5% chance after taking blood thinners then I won't do this procedure. If there is a 1% chance after taking blood thinners then I might. Pulmonary embolism is horrible. You can be left with searious health problems even if you survive.
Thank you sir
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Seriously? Just enter Pubmed and search any direct oral anticoagulant, warfarin or heparin. Every trial comparing these agents has patients who were treated and developed DVT and PTE. If the risk were zero and blood thinners were perfect, we would not have so many treatments for the same disease.
I don't make the odds haha. It is not a matter of opinion. You should search for a randomized double-blind trial comparing anticoagulant vs no anticoagulant in LL. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Probably because of the difficulty in having enough samples and different techniques by different doctors. You could look for femoral nailing and maybe extrapolate the overall risk for this surgery.
However, my point was that you have to know that everybody has a risk of having a DVT and PTE. This risk may increase if you are obese, a smoker. It also depends on the surgical technique and if you are weight bearing or not. Blood thinners may reduce this risk but there are pros and cons of using them. It is not for us to decide but for the specialists.
1. source of claim that LL patients who received Blood thinner died not in general.
2. I never said it's 100% effective.
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Any updates on this case?
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The patient in Greece has passed.
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Wow....this is seriously so bad ,poor guy..
I wonder if the doctor has a responsibility in this .
Paley has 0 deaths in his very very long career and we would know if that happened.
Same with Rozbruch etc.
Does weightbearing makes a difference ?
Anyway this is a really sad outcome and thanks to the person who opened this topic .
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He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.
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He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.
What is common ?
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It is normal for any surgeon to have complications, even death... even if he performed a close to perfect surgery. In America, patients sue doctors a lot more frequently than in other countries when they have bad results.
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Common to be sued ok..but In US I believe a death in a good surgeon record would really be mainstream .
Maybe I am wrong but if any of the top US cll surgeons had a death in the records by now we would certainly know .
Some things can't be (maybe) avoided , but I am sure there is a correlation between india/Greece--> deaths as it is with best surgeons --> 0 deaths reported in a long career .
Anyway idk...rn it's just sad about the guy ... hope we will have more infos
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He has had multiple lawsuits though... in America it is common.
A good surgeon doesn't have many lawsuits against him even in the US, period!
"Many lawsuits" is not something to be taken lightly because(regardless of whose fault it was) it definitely indicates unhappy patients/complications/negligence/ outcomes below expections etc... I mean, certainly something must have gone wrong for someone to sue his doctor...and if this has happened repeatedly, it certainly shows something, doesnt it?. Do we know what percentage of these lawsuits Paley eventually lost? or what were they related too? I don't belong to those who believe that Paley is the closest thing to God..quite the opposite from what I read here.
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A good surgeon doesn't have many lawsuits against him even in the US, period!
"Many lawsuits" is not something to be taken lightly because(regardless of whose fault it was) it definitely indicates unhappy patients/complications/negligence/ outcomes below expections etc... I mean, certainly something must have gone wrong for someone to sue his doctor...and if this has happened repeatedly, it certainly shows something, doesnt it?. Do we know what percentage of these lawsuits Paley eventually lost? or what were they related too? I don't belong to those who believe that Paley is the closest thing to God..quite the opposite from what I read here.
I don't believe in anyone to be God as well .
As probably prespective patients ,we have to see what doctor has his own interests+ours by his heart.
Paley has made an era and we cannot deny that.
Maybe without him we would not be here talking about CLL as an actuall thing;who knows .
But that said , he is a phenomenal surgeon and a phenomenal entrepreneur, which gets in conflict with our porpuse !
He most likely haven't been performing the surgeries itself since several years but in the field he is the n1 ,due to his experience and skill .
I believe that his bad outcomes (I never heard in this forum of crippled CLL patients by him but correct me if I am wrong) are due to his 0 personal care for the patient and the patient greed itself .
If you stick to the safe zones probably 80% of the ones who had a bad outcome like pains/decreased abilities/not regained full ROM would be way better .
Then you can complain and sue , sure ..but within yourself you know why that happened ...this forum is here to help us /each other not only to share experiences and lucky who gets trough it safely . We are not a Russian roulette.
That's why I would suggest and avoid doctors like betz,guichet,giotikas and many others ; because they dgaf about your outcome .And they barely try to hold u on something but rather agree on your lengthening goal..no matter if its 8 tibia or 10 femurs .
And this is also way I "trust" Dr.Lee more !
I am not by any chance promoting him , he is just my first choiche for this ,and it is because 1) he is skilled like Rozbruch or Paley and 2) he warns you that 8 cm is possible but NOT recommended. He will not shoot you if u aim at 8 but AT LEAST he tells you that , then up to you .
Those nails are for LLD not for CLL therefore LLD patient will benefit from 8 cm but not a CLL .
I went of topic as usual ahahah but point is that according to me , those doctors ,like the one mentioned in this topic ,should ne avoided ..because he performs in a country where you can't do s*** if something goes wrong and they barely care if it does .
10 or 20 k less doesen't worth the risk to me .
So you can sue your doctor , but I doubt that in best hands like Paley and co . The fault is entirely of the surgeon... because if it was he would not be performing by now if he had "multiple" bad cases caused by his poor skill .
Idk but hearing someone died chasing their dreams it's just so sad. Please save up and go to doctors who lower the chances to the maximum possible !
And go to a 1st world country so in case something happens out of your control , at least you can be somehow backed up!
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Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.
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Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.
I think it isn't wise to conclude the patien already had a rare underlying condition after s*** happened. A good surgeron with a good protocol should had performed comprehensive pre op tests so that the patient wouldn't qualify for the surgery.
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Anyone can have complaints and deaths in a very long career. The surgery didn't originate in America and no one should presume Americans are the best at it or have the most experience. I don't know much about Dr. Paley. I have no doubt he is excellent. I didn't consider doctors that required 3 month stays without exception but below are items that show no one has a perfect record.
State Complaint against Paley
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-doctor-dror-paley-20160318-story.html
State finds Paley supervised surgery but didn't perform it so it is dismissed against him and launched against dr he supervised.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-doctor-paley-wrong-limb-complaint-dismissed-20170227-story.html
Malpractice Suit against Paley
https://center.mdmalpracticeattorney.com/files/2013/12/SOC2010-398R.pdf
Recent infringement lawsuit against Paley
https://www.globenewswire.com/en/news-release/2020/10/06/2104528/0/en/IMED-Surgical-Files-Federal-Lawsuit-Against-Orthex-Dror-Paley-OrthoPediatrics-and-Squadron-Capital.html
Reviews in America of Dr. Paley
https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/30268/Dr-Dror-Paley-West+Palm+Beach-FL.html/
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Answering it he previous messages ,as I said...This doctor is not one to be considered as well with others. Period.
About the last Message ,Paley has a fraudulent story also at Sinai for some devices and that is why I would not go with him (also his age and so on) .
I am in Europe and it says the other links you shared can't be seen in my country so if you can summarize what they talk about would help me , so that I can at least answear properly
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I think it isn't wise to conclude the patien already had a rare underlying condition after s*** happened. A good surgeron with a good protocol should had performed comprehensive pre op tests so that the patient wouldn't qualify for the surgery.
THANK YOU !
Can we keep this thread alive forever ?
People need to know about those things/surgeons.
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I think it isn't wise to conclude the patien already had a rare underlying condition after s*** happened. A good surgeron with a good protocol should had performed comprehensive pre op tests so that the patient wouldn't qualify for the surgery.
He didn't have an underlying condition, he started an extreme diet and fasting method in the last days without notifying his doctor.
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He didn't have an underlying condition, he started an extreme diet and fasting method in the last days without notifying his doctor.
Do you know what diet it was by any chance?
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Do you know what diet it was by any chance?
Some kind of long fasting diet, I don't know more.
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Anyone can have complaints and deaths in a very long career. The surgery didn't originate in America and no one should presume Americans are the best at it or have the most experience. I don't know much about Dr. Paley. I have no doubt he is excellent. I didn't consider doctors that required 3 month stays without exception but below are items that show no one has a perfect record.
State Complaint against Paley
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-doctor-dror-paley-20160318-story.html
State finds Paley supervised surgery but didn't perform it so it is dismissed against him and launched against dr he supervised.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-doctor-paley-wrong-limb-complaint-dismissed-20170227-story.html
Malpractice Suit against Paley
https://center.mdmalpracticeattorney.com/files/2013/12/SOC2010-398R.pdf
Recent infringement lawsuit against Paley
https://www.globenewswire.com/en/news-release/2020/10/06/2104528/0/en/IMED-Surgical-Files-Federal-Lawsuit-Against-Orthex-Dror-Paley-OrthoPediatrics-and-Squadron-Capital.html
Reviews in America of Dr. Paley
https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/30268/Dr-Dror-Paley-West+Palm+Beach-FL.html/
Thank you @LU213. Those reviews are quite concerning as they question his professional integrity. I am starting to believe that if it wasn't for the increased sensitivity that most CLL patients have about keeping their privacy, there would have been more complaints or lawsuits against Paley and CLL. He is not trustowrthy imo.
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Some kind of long fasting diet, I don't know more.
The patient died. So we cannot crosscheck whether he trully did long fasting diet or not. Also we cannot conclude that fasting leads to embolism or not. I want to believe, but...
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Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.
That's not true, he did not have rare underlying conditions.
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I think it isn't wise to conclude the patien already had a rare underlying condition after s*** happened. A good surgeron with a good protocol should had performed comprehensive pre op tests so that the patient wouldn't qualify for the surgery.
+100
Unless the tests are super expensive and the condition is incredibly rare.
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It's a good thing to hear that the doctor is not changing his blood thinner protocol. That proves that there was some rare situation at play here. It would be easy for the doctor to just prescribe blood thinners at this point to all patients like Paley does. But if he is not changing it then it must mean he has really thought this through and decided.
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It's a good thing to hear that the doctor is not changing his blood thinner protocol. That proves that there was some rare situation at play here. It would be easy for the doctor to just prescribe blood thinners at this point to all patients like Paley does. But if he is not changing it then it must mean he has really thought this through and decided.
Doctor changing his protocol means admission for doing something wrong he is just trying to cover his back legally. If he had a medical condition why doc didn't test for it.
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As someone else mentioned, there would be little need to change his protocol or do more pre-op tests if the condition is incredibly rare (if indeed true).
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I was very friendly with the guy. He did not have any rare conditions. From a legal point of view, Dr changing protocol would mean admission that something could have been done to prevent the issue from happening, so no way they change protocol. I find amusing how people quickly try to rationalize what happened trying to find a "rare condition" on this guy, in order to think this tragedy could not happen to themselves. Guess what? This patient had no conditions, had done his research for years (he was a member in the forum), was disciplined and smart and worked hard. So yeah, this could have happened to any of us. There can be a discussion regarding the need of Xarelto, the fact that he did fasting for years (but everyone here knew about that, it was no secret), the incredibly bad luck he had... but it's just dumb to say he had rare conditions when he had none.
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I was very friendly with the guy. He did not have any rare conditions. From a legal point of view, Dr changing protocol would mean admission that something could have been done to prevent the issue from happening, so no way they change protocol. I find amusing how people quickly try to rationalize what happened trying to find a "rare condition" on this guy, in order to think this tragedy could not happen to themselves. Guess what? This patient had no conditions, had done his research for years (he was a member in the forum), was disciplined and smart and worked hard. So yeah, this could have happened to any of us. There can be a discussion regarding the need of Xarelto, the fact that he did fasting for years (but everyone here knew about that, it was no secret), the incredibly bad luck he had... but it's just dumb to say he had rare conditions when he had none.
Then why in the world you don't spam this story ?
Xeralto and diet are not "details" in this process .
Same thing hapoened to Guichet about blood thinners with the indian guy and a huge story was built on (thankfully).
The guy was a normal guy as any other.
The fact we have to learn to look at xrays,to remind doctors ITB realease ,blood thinners and so in ,its really sad.
IT SHOULD NOT BE OUR DUTY to check those things after the insane amount payed .
Therefore several weeks after the procedure , i don t see how this could be patient fault only.
If he had a condition , doctor fault !
If he didn't take xeralto ,chances are doctor didn't prescribe them longer since he was a member of the forum and knew how important it is!
If he dieted or fasted...I find it hard to believe that some deficit in vitamins and nutrients are what causes this ; it can lead to delayed consolidation or things like that but death ? Wow...
Idk , I am not a former patient neither I am a doctor but stay away from those "cheap" alternatives doctors operating in those weird countries. Period !
Can't stress enough with this !
This guy dreamed LIKE ALL OF US!
Please stay safe and stick to the bests in 1 st world country .
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If he dieted or fasted...I find it hard to believe that some deficit in vitamins and nutrients are what causes this ; it can lead to delayed consolidation or things like that but death ? Wow...
Idk , I am not a former patient neither I am a doctor but stay away from those "cheap" alternatives doctors operating in those weird countries. Period !
Can't stress enough with this !
This guy dreamed LIKE ALL OF US!
Please stay safe and stick to the bests in 1 st world country .
Oh, you must be one of those "God bless America" kind of guys!
Well, if you wanna talk about risks and regulation take a look at how great the All-American Stryde was; it gloriously failed and withdrawn within less than two years (!!) from its introduction; Let me remind you that it was European and UK doctors and the UK Authorities who first red flagged the problems of Stryde, when the US doctors and FDA were just doing“ business as usual”. Or, see all these public litigations and reviews against Paley that @LU213 shared earlier; he would probably have lost his licence for at least a couple of years if he was in the UK or most countries in the EU.
Better stop this “1st world country” moto of yours because ,imo, there are good and bad professionals and adequate public regulation on both sides of the pond.
Finally, if you take the time to google “fasting and thrombosis risk” you will find many studies about blood clots, strokes, fasting etc. (This by the way could serve as a useful piece of advice to our Muslim bros here doing LL during the Ramadan period).
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Oh, you must be one of those "God bless America" kind of guys!
Well, if you wanna talk about risks and regulation take a look at how great the All-American Stryde was; it gloriously failed and withdrawn within less than two years (!!) from its introduction; Let me remind you that it was European and UK doctors and the UK Authorities who first red flagged the problems of Stryde, when the US doctors and FDA were just doing“ business as usual”. Or, see all these public litigations and reviews against Paley that @LU213 shared earlier; he would probably have lost his licence for at least a couple of years if he was in the UK or most countries in the EU.
Better stop this “1st world country” moto of yours because ,imo, there are good and bad professionals and adequate public regulation on both sides of the pond.
Finally, if you take the time to google “fasting and thrombosis risk” you will find many studies about blood clots, strokes, fasting etc. (This by the way could serve as a useful piece of advice to our Muslim bros here doing LL during the Ramadan period).
You clearly didn't read carefully my previous posts .
I am not an "God bless America" person because I am not even from Us/neither I live there/ plan to do the surgery there .
Europe has regulations but do not have experienced doctors (at least that do CLL) , like other places ,like US.
On top of that the medical system is public therefore its safer for emergencies but good luck for things like CLL .
ON TOP OF THAT , I always said that if I have to go trought this I will pick dr.Lee also because he pointed out the s**** about Stryde early on when he had his first cases and he didn't operate with the nail as soon as that came out .
So I am not about America ; Paley also said that for him stryde would be still out and he would have let ppl decide if to go with it or not "with a disclaimer".
as I also said , I can't see the posts about Paley because that website is not available in my country so I don't know what is in there but hands down he is the most experienced surgeon so instead of thinking that he fails so others are allowed to fail too ,think that his volumes is insanely higher then "new" cll doctors popping out so complications when you do thousands of LLS can arise unfortunately.
ALSO if that happens with Paley or other "1st world surgeons" ,can you imagine what happens in other places ?
I don't know where are you from but I already put it out there that I perfectly know how things runs in country like Turkey,Greece and u name it !
So what I am saying is not " you are 100% safe in us" but that you are way more unsafe somewhere else and that the 10 k or 20 k less ,does not worth the % of risk increased when you decide to go in bad hospitals with barely unknown doctors .
That was my point !
You can agree or not agree but mine it's just logic, I have no interest in putting down a more affordable surgeon because it would benefit me as well , but stop trying to convince yourself (talking in general) that a cheap version can equal the skills/care/knowledge of an expensive version .
Costa are dictated by doctors name and experience but also from the anesthesia machine they us , the anesthesiologist hired , the pt hired ,the nurses hired and so on .
With such a delicate procedure I can't see how someone can go in bad hospitals with unknown doctors in poor countries like Greece where money is everything.
My point of view tho , maybe I am wrong idk but that's what I think .
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Finally, if you take the time to google “fasting and thrombosis risk” you will find many studies about blood clots, strokes, fasting etc. (This by the way could serve as a useful piece of advice to our Muslim bros here doing LL during the Ramadan period).
Ramadhan 2021 wasn’t in October/November, the day tragedy happened, it was in April/May
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Ramadhan 2021 wasn’t in October/November, the day tragedy happened, it was in April/May
My comment about Ramadan was a more general note about long fasting... I didn't mean that the patient in Greece was fasting because of Ramadan.
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谁有证据证明这件事情呢，我只看到了讨论，到没有新闻或者官方声明，虽然通过讨论感觉是真的。
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I find it tiring how a lot of people here try to justify all bad outcomes with "rare conditions" or "bad doctors"... this is a high-risk surgery, even when doing everything correctly there is a TRUE chance you may die. You have to make peace with it...
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I want to just confirm for the record that our friend was not Muslim. I do agree that Arcon's comment was just a general warning statement to people who fast for religious reasons and did not imply our deceased friend was Muslim. Our friend had pain in his right leg that he found strange and he often voiced concerns about it. These concerns were trivialized by the medical personnel other than the doctor (we were never present when he was with the dr). I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not but their response bothered my parent who would talk to me about how she didn't like how they made light of his weird pain. He then got a compression sleeve for his right thigh because no one did anything.
Dr. Giotikas told me the patient had rare background factors. I gather from his email that he was talking about the fasting being an unusual/little known risk in thrombosis. He did not say that our fellow LL patient had rare underlying medical conditions. It is possible that someone misinterpreted that statement by mistake.
I find it hard to believe that the patient did not inform the doctor of his dietary activities prior to surgery. Dr Giotikas sent out two emails to the existing patients regarding the tragedy. Like the rest of us, our fellow LL patient was not taking Xarelto.
Because of what happened to the guy whose sister wrote the story, I was keenly aware of symptoms of DVT and PE (although sometimes there are no symptoms). It was why I would not go alone. I think even though doctors make us sign waivers that we are aware of the risks, since it is a risk, doctors should explain to us the signs and what to do if it happens. Certainly we should ask prior to the surgery but many are like me, young and inexperienced. We think that asking a question is a betrayal of our trust in the doctor but it is NOT.
If the internet is correct, I searched and most people who get PE do not die and even most people that get the dangerous FE survive. We have one guy in this forum that got a FE during surgery with Paley that survived. So it is best to get help at the first minor sign even if it seems trivial. Many people die of FE getting the BBL which has been called the riskiest cosmetic procedure. The risk that was just a theory has just become very real.
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I want to just confirm for the record that our friend was not Muslim. I do agree that Arcon's comment was just a general warning statement to people who fast for religious reasons and did not imply our deceased friend was Muslim. Our friend had pain in his right leg that he found strange and he often voiced concerns about it. These concerns were trivialized by the medical personnel other than the doctor (we were never present when he was with the dr). I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not but their response bothered my parent who would talk to me about how she didn't like how they made light of his weird pain. He then got a compression sleeve for his right thigh because no one did anything.
Dr. Giotikas told me the patient had rare background factors. I gather from his email that he was talking about the fasting being an unusual/little known risk in thrombosis. He did not say that our fellow LL patient had rare underlying medical conditions. It is possible that someone misinterpreted that statement by mistake.
I find it hard to believe that the patient did not inform the doctor of his dietary activities prior to surgery. Dr Giotikas sent out two emails to the existing patients regarding the tragedy. Like the rest of us, our fellow LL patient was not taking Xarelto.
Because of what happened to the guy whose sister wrote the story, I was keenly aware of symptoms of DVT and PE (although sometimes there are no symptoms). It was why I would not go alone. I think even though doctors make us sign waivers that we are aware of the risks, since it is a risk, doctors should explain to us the signs and what to do if it happens. Certainly we should ask prior to the surgery but many are like me, young and inexperienced. We think that asking a question is a betrayal of our trust in the doctor but it is NOT.
If the internet is correct, I searched and most people who get PE do not die and even most people that get the dangerous FE survive. We have one guy in this forum that got a FE during surgery with Paley that survived. So it is best to get help at the first minor sign even if it seems trivial. Many people die of FE getting the BBL which has been called the riskiest cosmetic procedure. The risk that was just a theory has just become very real.
And now I would like to know how for someone this is not ,even partially, the surgeons fault ?
Knowing risks is a thing , but they guy in this message explained perfectly what more or less the situation looked like and as he said A) I doubt he didn't inform he was fasting and B) this surgeon popped out just couple years ago and he already had this outcome .
Can someone stop defending surgeons no matter what just because it is a f*****g high risk surgery ?
It is high risk for many factors but it is not high risk for death to the point were couple deaths here and there are ok and need to be accepted .
Wtf is wrong with some of you ?
This surgery takes with it OTHER risks like lose of ROM , athletic ability and so on that makes it risky .
But fractures of any type and LL of any type are performed every year for non cosmetic porpuses and I don't see bodies laying on the streets dead by fractures and LLD as we should given that a small amount of CLL had some bad outcomes , a Big amount of other patients should have bigger numbers right ?!
Like what?
Those risks are involved in any orthopedic surgery but giving xeralto is not a rocket science .
This guy just said that they didn't prescribe it to anyone !!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone can do what they want , idc , but er are all here to achieve our dreams and I would like to cheer with each other one day and maybe meet one of you guys , not to f******* end up reading this things !
He didn't die for something the surgeon could not do ,at least from the report of the guy who IS THERE !
someone please correct me if I am wrong because I really don't get how some ppl think here .
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I haven't yet commented in this matter because, even though I feel very strongly about the situation, I'd rather not present my opinions as fact in a case as serious as this. I do see some misconceptions and outright excuses in this thread, so I can provide these facts:
We all are prescribed Xarelto, but only for around 3 weeks, whereas other doctors like Betz or Paley give you Xarelto during all lenghtening. Giotikas reasoning is that Xarelto can cause serious side effects, and that the chance of clots after 3 weeks is extremely low with full weightbearing. I cannot give an informed opinion on this matter, as my field of expertise is Law, and not Medicine. I do think that, even if the chances are extremely low, I'd rather risk side effects (like liver issues) rather than embolism, and it seems that other doctors think the same. Again, I'm no expert on this matter, and this may have just been a freak accident.
The patient was disciplined, cautious and smart. He did previous research, in fact I met him initially trought this forum. The issue was not at all due to lack of mobilization, as he walked more than any of us. The week he had the embolism he was even walking home from PT, instead of taking taxi.
He had a fasting diet for years, that's true. However, it's a lie that he kept that secret: he was talking about it very often and EVERYONE knew about that. In fact, I personally heard him recommend that diet to one of the PT people. The Dr says he did not allow him to fast, but the patient personally told me that he asked him and was allowed as long as he took enough calories per day. I can't say the Dr is lying, as I never heard the real conversation and I only have the word of the guy, but 100% everyone knew about his fasting diet.
He had extremely bad luck due to the fact that the week before the incident he got the flu. A theory can be that he had COVID (fever, cough, muscle pain), cause it can cause clots , but he said he did a rapid test and came back negative. The thing is that, due to just having flu, when he started having embolism symptons (cough, chest pain) it seems that he just thought it was flu symptons again. In fact, I have an audio of him 1 hour before the incident, and he told me that he still had some symptons, but he was feeling "back to normal".
He did have thigh pain for weeks prior to the incident, but I don't think it was related, as he was told it was an issue with his IT bands
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This is heartbreaking. How long after his surgery did this happen?
This makes me so afraid.
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Thanks for all the information for those who actually knew him. It sounds like it's just really bad luck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Assayag also only prescribe Xarelto for the first few weeks?
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Morningstar had the flu too. He at first thought it was COVID. I wonder where they caught the flu? The head nurse wasn't vaccinated. She said she didn't trust the vaccine.
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I'm surprised it's not a requirement to be vaccinated there. Was the patient also vaccinated?
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I think all previous comments sound reasonable, I agree with @V21's post about not presenting opinions as facts because it only adds to the confusion. Imo, the best thing for those who are seriously considering Giotikas is to ask him directly about incidents, protocols, risks etc. For those who have met Giotikas it is common place that he is honest and knowledgeable and very open(not to say blatant!) with risks, problems, difficulties etc, so I would anticipate to receive some clear answers that make sense.
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I'm surprised it's not a requirement to be vaccinated there. Was the patient also vaccinated?
The pacient was not vaccinated, that's why I thought COVID could be a reason, cause it can cause blood clots (happened to my father, mildly). However, both him and Morning Star tested negative, so it seems it was just flu probably.
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Another relevant fact: it happened 6-7 weeks after surgery. I think that's the craziest thing here, as far as I know the chances of embolism so long after surgery should be extremely low (with a full weight bearing nail).
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The pacient was not vaccinated, that's why I thought COVID could be a reason, cause it can cause blood clots (happened to my father, mildly). However, both him and Morning Star tested negative, so it seems it was just flu probably.
I wonder if the patient had COVID in the past, and was maybe suffering "long COVID" or had some sort of side effect from it.
Another relevant fact: it happened 6-7 weeks after surgery. I think that's the craziest thing here, as far as I know the chances of embolism so long after surgery should be extremely low (with a full weight bearing nail).
This is what is crazy to me too.
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As a former betz patient I was prescribed xarelto for the entire length of distraction and betzbone is full weight baring as well. Kinda weird to me that giotikas just leaves xarelto out a few weeks post surgery. Rather be safe than sorry when it comes to blood cloths and stuff. I didn't like taking all these pills either but it was necessary.
What a sad thing.
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虽然这个事情已经被确定真实了。但我很想看到官方声明或者报道
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I agree with you.
All the medical team is familiar with the patient's diet, medication and lifestyle, both before and during surgery.
But even if this was an exception and the doctor forgot, the chief nurse was with him all day! She knew his diet, did his shopping, saw what he was eating all day! For god's sake!
To me this is very serious, and to anyone who is going to have surgery with Giotikas in Athens I would recommend to look at a external nursing team/PT on their own. At least this way you know who you are hiring, how experienced they are and how they treat you.
Because after this, I honestly would not feel at all comfortable or confident being under the care of the same team that "took care" of this guy.
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I agree with you.
All the medical team is familiar with the patient's diet, medication and lifestyle, both before and during surgery.
But even if this was an exception and the doctor forgot, the chief nurse was with him all day! She knew his diet, did his shopping, saw what he was eating all day! For god's sake!
To me this is very serious, and to anyone who is going to have surgery with Giotikas in Athens I would recommend to look at a external nursing team/PT on their own. At least this way you know who you are hiring, how experienced they are and how they treat you.
Because after this, I honestly would not feel at all comfortable or confident being under the care of the same team that "took care" of this guy.
Finally someone who actually says something as well .
We don't know how much but the doctor and the nurses have a relevance in what happened !
Period.
I would not trust the dr and the hospital in general .
Idk about you but I would not feel at all comfortable in a place where someone died .
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Now, this is a pretty ignorant comment right here. The chief nurse was with the guy for quite a while and did his shopping and eating habits, but she did the same with many other patients and even with the "late" guy's roommate, all of who are in excellent condition. She and the guy's roommate urged him not to do fasting for obvious reasons such as the need for calories while under such an invasive surgery. But as with anyone he was very confident in his approach and didn't heed the advice. As of now the doctor has changed his approach and has started to prescribe blood thinners to all the patients for a longer time. A 5-minute google search can prove that blood clots with fasting is extremely rare almost improbable. The obvious answer to me would be the blood thinners. Also, the reason the doctor is so confident with his claim of 'fasting' causing clots and not his idiotic approach of not prescribing blood thinners even during the hospital stay (my case) is that he has a massive legal team behind him which in a country such as Greece would bankrupt anyone who would try to litigate him. Don't be fooled. I've seen the doctor's approach regarding this case and I am not a fan of it.
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@Masteryourlife People die in the hospital all the time so that really is not a great test of the quality of the hospital. The original hospital (Mediterraneo) which I think was horrible in customer service, in fact had nothing to do with his death. He died in another hospital and it was probably too late by time he got to them. I also bet this local hospital did not have the latest and greatest equipment or medical team. There are probably people who died in each LL program. This one is well known because so many patients were there in Greece at the time and only one of them was bold enough to create this thread.
The chief nurse dressed in tight spandex pants and low cut, short and tight shirts. I prefer to have a skilled nurse that dresses in a professional manner than one that dresses provocatively. I did not find her to be highly skilled in communications and for that reason I would not let her come to my airbnb to help for nothing. She is not the reason the others did well. Maybe they did well in spite of her. All she did is help people click, transport and help with other tasks. I clicked way better without her. However, if the poor guy was sick prior to that date and had pain that he told to the chief nurse and she, chalked it up to the LL surgery, did not tell the doctor or urge a D-dimer test or an ultrasound, then she was negligent. This though I don't know.
I had a blood clot in a small vein in my lower right leg before. Don't know where it came from. It felt weird, like my leg was partially asleep. I noticed the difference in blood flow in the leg. Something wasn't right. I could walk and exercise but it felt worse when I was laying down. Mostly weird feeling but not so much pain. I kept trying to massage it to bring it to life. I researched the internet to try to find out what it could be. You can't see it in an xray. I had to argue with the doctors to get an ultrasound because I had no risk factors. Eventually they gave me an ultrasound. It went away with baby aspirin and B-12. I felt it right away when it was gone. This clot though was not DVT because it was not in a deep vein.
We don't have autopsy results so we don't know if fasting was the cause of the blood clot. Like Jack Hanna said it produces only a minimal increase in the risk. Dr. Giotikas always prescribed blood thinners but only for about 3 weeks. He told me he hasn't decided to prescribe it for the entire lengthening phase. He even sent an official email stating the same. Interesting that @Jack Hanna says he now prescribes it longer. So maybe he has changed since he sent the email.
Many doctors with extensive legal teams have been brought down with a skilled plaintiff's legal team. I for one don't have enough information to blame anyone. We haven't seen the evidence. Sometimes unforeseen occurrences befall us.
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@Masteryourlife People die in the hospital all the time so that really is not a great test of the quality of the hospital. The original hospital (Mediterraneo) which I think was horrible in customer service, in fact had nothing to do with his death. He died in another hospital and it was probably too late by time he got to them. I also bet this local hospital did not have the latest and greatest equipment or medical team. There are probably people who died in each LL program. This one is well known because so many patients were there in Greece at the time and only one of them was bold enough to create this thread.
The chief nurse dressed in tight spandex pants and low cut, short and tight shirts. I prefer to have a skilled nurse that dresses in a professional manner than one that dresses provocatively. I did not find her to be highly skilled in communications and for that reason I would not let her come to my airbnb to help for nothing. She is not the reason the others did well. Maybe they did well in spite of her. All she did is help people click, transport and help with other tasks. I clicked way better without her. However, if the poor guy was sick prior to that date and had pain that he told to the chief nurse and she, chalked it up to the LL surgery, did not tell the doctor or urge a D-dimer test or an ultrasound, then she was negligent. This though I don't know.
I had a blood clot in a small vein in my lower right leg before. Don't know where it came from. It felt weird, like my leg was partially asleep. I noticed the difference in blood flow in the leg. Something wasn't right. I could walk and exercise but it felt worse when I was laying down. Mostly weird feeling but not so much pain. I kept trying to massage it to bring it to life. I researched the internet to try to find out what it could be. You can't see it in an xray. I had to argue with the doctors to get an ultrasound because I had no risk factors. Eventually they gave me an ultrasound. It went away with baby aspirin and B-12. I felt it right away when it was gone. This clot though was not DVT because it was not in a deep vein.
We don't have autopsy results so we don't know if fasting was the cause of the blood clot. Like Jack Hanna said it produces only a minimal increase in the risk. Dr. Giotikas always prescribed blood thinners but only for about 3 weeks. He told me he hasn't decided to prescribe it for the entire lengthening phase. He even sent an official email stating the same. Interesting that @Jack Hanna says he now prescribes it longer. So maybe he has changed since he sent the email.
Many doctors with extensive legal teams have been brought down with a skilled plaintiff's legal team. I for one don't have enough information to blame anyone. We haven't seen the evidence. Sometimes unforeseen occurrences befall us.
It's true that now it seems like he changed his mind, as a current patient in Greece told me they have been given Xarelto for 10 extra days.
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Hey guys, I’m here in Greece. On Saturday it’s going to be one month. Thank G-d all is good. I do have some pain in different places but they pass. Anyways back to business.
Here all the patients know each other and are very friendly.
After this unfortunate incident the doctor prescribed Xarelto for everyone for another 8 days.
Meaning instead of 16 days now it’s 24 days. (He tells you to keep two for the flight back so total 26 tablets)
Regarding the chief nurse. She told me a few times that she told the patient “P” not to fast, plus the day before this accident happened she told him he looks pale and he needs a check up and to rest.
Please remember just the week before he had the flu.
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The chief nurse dressed in tight spandex pants and low cut, short and tight shirts. I prefer to have a skilled nurse that dresses in a professional manner than one that dresses provocatively. I did not find her to be highly skilled in communications and for that reason I would not let her come to my airbnb to help for nothing. She is not the reason the others did well. Maybe they did well in spite of her. All she did is help people click, transport and help with other tasks. I clicked way better without her. However, if the poor guy was sick prior to that date and had pain that he told to the chief nurse and she, chalked it up to the LL surgery, did not tell the doctor or urge a D-dimer test or an ultrasound, then she was negligent. This though I don't know.
Now I cannot say anything about the dressing manner of the nurse, that is entirely an opinion, but what I will say is please don't discredit anyone without working with them. Or simply don't judge a book by its cover. Makes you sound pretty stupid. Since I was the first G-nail patient and the doctor knew nothing about the clicking pain and what could minimize it, I called for her help to help me click, in fact, the other Patient V21 and the "late" patient did as well. Her main strength is that she actually tries her best at making your procedure as comfortable as possible. She was very responsive and helped figure out ways to click all while minimizing pain. In the beginning when my pain was almost 9/10 while clicking with the doctor's technique I and her would have a 3-hour session where we did lots of stretching, massage, and various other things that would help with clicking pain. I liked her service so much that I decided to hire her to take over my whole lengthening period. In fact, the clicking technique current patients use wasn't discovered by the doctor. It was in fact discovered by the chief nurse who was working on my clicking and had the idea. Now I had an issue with the doctor and the PT center because the PT center damaged my left calf muscle while doing a hamstring stretch, thus I decided to hire her for physiotherapy as well, and what do you know, I didn't go to PT nor followed the doctor's ridiculous advice of doing 1.33mm lengthening each day and had a better recovery than everyone who followed the doctor and went to the PT center. I was walking without support after one-month post OP. I credit most of that to the Chief nurse. Most people who come here can vouch for her. I will write a better summary about her in my post.
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You speak without knowledge if you say V21 was a fan of the nurse. People who call other people stupid because they don't agree with their opinions expose themselves for what they are. Arrogant. People are allowed to have different opinions. I didn't judge her by her cover. I said I didn't find her highly skilled in communications. You came alone so you had no choice but to get help. If you chose to use a person who wasn't trained in PT to do your PT that is your decision. She did not discover the clicking method. Betz did. I used it on day 2 after watching the Betz video. I even recorded myself on that day and shared the video with others. I ultimately found a better method in a Guichet video. You have no idea on my recovery to conclude you had a better recovery than me. From what are you basing that your recovery was better than anyone - your mind? Or did the nurse tell you that? My recovery is excellent. Just because you liked her doesn't mean I have to. If Dr. Giotikas was dressed in Spandex, at every appointment would you have chosen him? I am sure the deceased is vouching for her right now from the grave.
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I am not a patient and didn't live all this in first person but I feel that the dress code of the nurse does not make her bad but brings some doubts on the professional aspect which includes the dress code too .
I would like to focus on a passage where the guy up here @jackhanma says that giotikas told to him to lengthen 1.33 per day and that the pt damaged him qka was really bad .
Now...even the most ignorant and unaware kid of the forum knows that past 1mm per day should NOT be a thing ans this doctor tells to a patient to do 1.33 ?
Hopefully the guy did not follow him but YOU ALL PAYED a heck of money for that and the PT is trash ?
In a country were salaries are so low ,meaning that given the price of the procedure the PTs hired should be the top of the top of Greece.
You should not be the one to check on doctor/nurse job but rather the opposite where they stop you from doing stupid things .
On top of that ,the fact he added extra days to his blood thinner prescriptions says a lot .
More then arguing between us , we should be thankfull that someone brought this up and from it many others like you guys are sharing their experiences exposing some bad major mistakes .
To summarize the dr mistakes :
-suggested overlenghening of 1.33mm x day
-bad/harmful PT
-not accurate med prescription
- inexperienced with the clicking mechanism even tho he offers 2 mechanical nails
Do we need more ?
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You speak without knowledge if you say V21 was a fan of the nurse. People who call other people stupid because they don't agree with their opinions expose themselves for what they are. Arrogant. People are allowed to have different opinions. I didn't judge her by her cover. I said I didn't find her highly skilled in communications. You came alone so you had no choice but to get help. If you chose to use a person who wasn't trained in PT to do your PT that is your decision. She did not discover the clicking method. Betz did. I used it on day 2 after watching the Betz video. I even recorded myself on that day and shared the video with others. I ultimately found a better method in a Guichet video. You have no idea on my recovery to conclude you had a better recovery than me. From what are you basing that your recovery was better than anyone - your mind? Or did the nurse tell you that? My recovery is excellent. Just because you liked her doesn't mean I have to. If Dr. Giotikas was dressed in Spandex, at every appointment would you have chosen him? I am sure the deceased is vouching for her right now in heaven. lol.
I completely agree with you.
If I pay this amount of money I expect a treatment and a presence according to their marketing and price. Something that I do not see reflected.
I prefer a professional and specialized team rather than see some chick in tights.
If I wanted other types of services, I would have sought them out.
But who comes here comes for surgery, looking for a professional and serious team, not to a team that many of them have not even finished their medical degree and works with such high risk patients.
The nurse's team is basically a bunch of college kids, maybe they have no other way to earn money so they do this. Ridiculous way to earn money if you want to have a good career after you finish college but that's up to them, but the doctor knowing how risky this operation is and how important postop care is should not hire people like this, but a professional team, in all aspects.
And I repeat, even more so after all the money we paid for this.
Now, if there are certain patients who defend the nurses and the chief nurse so much, well, that's up to them with their personal preferences, I prioritize my life before some juvenile hormones.
But if they are so impressionable as to even defend a team that has made so many mistakes lately, I question the professionalism and ethics of this team in relation to patients, and their relationship/s with them.
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I am not a patient and didn't live all this in first person but I feel that the dress code of the nurse does not make her bad but brings some doubts on the professional aspect which includes the dress code too .
I would like to focus on a passage where the guy up here @jackhanma says that giotikas told to him to lengthen 1.33 per day and that the pt damaged him qka was really bad .
Now...even the most ignorant and unaware kid of the forum knows that past 1mm per day should NOT be a thing ans this doctor tells to a patient to do 1.33 ?
Hopefully the guy did not follow him but YOU ALL PAYED a heck of money for that and the PT is trash ?
In a country were salaries are so low ,meaning that given the price of the procedure the PTs hired should be the top of the top of Greece.
You should not be the one to check on doctor/nurse job but rather the opposite where they stop you from doing stupid things .
On top of that ,the fact he added extra days to his blood thinner prescriptions says a lot .
More then arguing between us , we should be thankfull that someone brought this up and from it many others like you guys are sharing their experiences exposing some bad major mistakes .
To summarize the dr mistakes :
-suggested overlenghening of 1.33mm x day
-bad/harmful PT
-not accurate med prescription
- inexperienced with the clicking mechanism even tho he offers 2 mechanical nails
Do we need more ?
It's not fair to say that the PT guys were trash. Most of us consider they are competent. It's quite painful, but it's supossed to be. Regarding the overlenghtening, I was told to do 1.33 for a week cause my bone growth was too fast, and I did, but it seems that everyone is being told to that. I don't know the reasoning behind this, but it can't be necesary for everyone. I know for a fact that most patients don't do it and keep the normal 1 mm pace during that week, and they are all perfectly fine. My pace was like 1 mm per day first three weeks, 1.33 per day un fourth week, and 0.78 per day until the end soon after that.
Regarding the other points, I do agree that there is inexperience regarding the clicking mechanism, and this is something I want to discuss further in my diary, as I think (comparing with other Betz or Guichet patients) that there must be easier ways to click. I do think the nail is great though, I'm quite happy I chose it instead of Precice.
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It's not fair to say that the PT guys were trash. Most of us consider they are competent. It's quite painful, but it's supossed to be. Regarding the overlenghtening, I was told to do 1.33 for a week cause my bone growth was too fast, and I did, but it seems that everyone is being told to that. I don't know the reasoning behind this, but it can't be necesary for everyone. I know for a fact that most patients don't do it and keep the normal 1 mm pace during that week, and they are all perfectly fine. My pace was like 1 mm per day first three weeks, 1.33 per day un fourth week, and 0.78 per day until the end soon after that.
Regarding the other points, I do agree that there is inexperience regarding the clicking mechanism, and this is something I want to discuss further in my diary, as I think (comparing with other Betz or Guichet patients) that there must be easier ways to click. I do think the nail is great though, I'm quite happy I chose it instead of Precice.
About PT I quoted what the other patient said but overall..too many ifs for the price you pay for it .
Idk glad some of you had good outcomes but for prospective patients I would not gamble .
I would choose someone else
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You speak without knowledge if you say V21 was a fan of the nurse. People who call other people stupid because they don't agree with their opinions expose themselves for what they are. Arrogant. People are allowed to have different opinions. I didn't judge her by her cover. I said I didn't find her highly skilled in communications. You came alone so you had no choice but to get help. If you chose to use a person who wasn't trained in PT to do your PT that is your decision. She did not discover the clicking method. Betz did. I used it on day 2 after watching the Betz video. I even recorded myself on that day and shared the video with others. I ultimately found a better method in a Guichet video. You have no idea on my recovery to conclude you had a better recovery than me. From what are you basing that your recovery was better than anyone - your mind? Or did the nurse tell you that? My recovery is excellent. Just because you liked her doesn't mean I have to. If Dr. Giotikas was dressed in Spandex, at every appointment would you have chosen him? I am sure the deceased is vouching for her right now in heaven. lol.
"People who call other people stupid because they don't agree with their opinions expose themselves for what they are. Arrogant."
This is quite ironic. Calling me arrogant should make you arrogant in this case, no? :o Well, you didn't like her dress code, that is your opinion, I got no issue with that. You say people are allowed to have opinions but then go on and make an assumption that the nurse is telling me things, which is pretty weird???
"She is not the reason the others did well." Now how is this not judging a book by its cover? C'mon man, did you leave your common sense behind in Greece?
But enough with childish insults, what you have said in your post is pretty judgmental and senseless, to say the least. I never said anyone liked her or needed to. You see when most normal people have two broken legs and are suffering in unbearable pain and neither the doctor nor the Physio is helping them, dress code and some fine English is the last thing they look for, guess it isn't the case for you. After all, who am I to say you aren't normal, am I right. Since you seem to think you are so knowledgeable, did you know that 2 out of 3 physio's in the PT center don't have any background in physiotherapy and are just random moms and dads that the doctor grabbed out of nowhere? And guess what, those "certified" physios damaged me and a couple of other patients while charging more for the service than the nurse. Patients not going to PT and hiring the head nurse isn't an unusual phenomenon, many patients have done this before. That should say a lot about the Doctor and PT center's approach. More so the PT center was reestablished less than a year ago, and it was actually made smaller, go figure. It is not even the doctor's own PT center, he has rented it. It is a small PT center where there are 5 PT beds and 10 patients, most of which aren't even LL patients. The only one who knows anything about physiotherapy is the head of the PT center and he never does any PT on anyone? Compared to the head nurse who has certifications in PT and massage therapy and is actually a certified nurse, anyone who comes here knows that the nurses are running most of Giotikas's business. He is a great surgeon, but the aftercare is pretty much absent without the nursing team.
You weren't even here when we were clicking with the doctor's miserable technique. You came at just the right time when everything was figured out and tested. Also, how are you gonna take advantage of her service free of charge and talk about her man, very low of you? I can say she found the clicking technique because no one was doing it prior to her. We were all clicking in the worst way imaginable and had 9/10 pain only for the doctor to disregard our suffering and ignore us. Then me, "p", and the nurse figured the clicking technique and shared it with all the patients, not you lol. You found the standing clicking technique, not the one that patients are using currently, so respectfully stop bull ting.
Now it is true I know nothing of your physical recovery since you left so soon. But seems like you need to focus more on recovering your common sense and sense of empathy since you are comfortable with dragging a deceased patient to boost your little banter. I knew him personally and this is pretty fked up and lowly of you man. Ultimately I hope you recover well not only physically but also mentally since you seem to be missing that bit.
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About PT I quoted what the other patient said but overall..too many ifs for the price you pay for it .
Idk glad some of you had good outcomes but for prospective patients I would not gamble .
I would choose someone else
I like Assayag a lot, he seems like he really cares about patients, but the issue is that know he only offers Precice for femurs. As a patient in recovery, I can tell weightbearing is key, and with Precice I would probably be terrified of damaging the nail. Out of curiosity, what surgeon would you choose? Weight bearing nails with femurs are offered by Betz, Giotikas and Guichet, and I would choose Giotikas, even though I agree with some of the criticts in this thread. Of course, the issue is different if you consider externals, in that case I guess Lee?
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@JackHanna Apparently not liking the lady you paid to take you to the movies, has really hurt your feelings. I have nothing against her. I just didn't find her highly skilled. I am going to be the adult and move on.
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I like Assayag a lot, he seems like he really cares about patients, but the issue is that know he only offers Precice for femurs. As a patient in recovery, I can tell weightbearing is key, and with Precice I would probably be terrified of damaging the nail. Out of curiosity, what surgeon would you choose? Weight bearing nails with femurs are offered by Betz, Giotikas and Guichet, and I would choose Giotikas, even though I agree with some of the criticts in this thread. Of course, the issue is different if you consider externals, in that case I guess Lee?
Given the Stryde recall I am waiting because I am avarage height and early 20s so although I want this surgery so much , I don't have the urge to go trough non wb nails or mechanical ones .
I don't want to rush it and maybe have Stryde/Nitinail/ or something new from Nuvasive back in a year or little more and me being with precice 2 .I think waiting is worth it .
Doctor wise as days go by Dr.Lee is my only choiche .
I think he was (skill wise) maybe second just to Paley but now that Paley doesn't perform basically anymore but rather let dr.Robbinson ,Dr.Lee internal femur is my only choiche .
This is also why I have to wait no matter what.
I hear here people who go to their 2nd or 3rd doctor choiche...idk I could never .
I am concerned with my first pick imagine with the others Lol
Given you situation I assume u had an urge to do it now .
If I was you I would have gone with Assayag P2 .
I understand it can be very very challenging not weight bearing but my mind/soul would be so much more comfortable then having an old mechanical wb nail with doctors with known complications .
Out of the 3 doctors offering wb nails ,j want to underline again if I was you , I would have post poned the surgery but giotikas back then had no death record as guichet and betz it's just so bad.
I read he has many lawsuits and he allows insane amount of lengthening so giotikas seemed the best out of those .
I answeared to all scenarios ,hope I did answear to your question properly as well
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Guys, let’s not fight.
The reality here in Greece is those that did not come with a girlfriend or sibling are hiring the nurses for clicking, PT assistance and general care. I’m in touch with all the patients. No one is ting on the nurses. They really try their best and most patients like them.
In regards to PT, I agree there are some PT’s there who are on a lower level.
This is just my opinion- please do not bash me. I understand YMMV.
The most advanced PT’s is “Alex” - PT owner, and “Alliki” she is very good and skilled. She DOES have a degree and certifications etc. I only work with them. Again this is just my opinion. The other patients work with the other PT’s and they are fine with them.
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*no one is ing
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ing
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I guess I can’t post curse words.
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@LU213 Man, how can you tell that nurses are not professional when you didn't hire one? I've been hiring nurses here everyday since the beginning of my journey and I am especially happy about the service.
P. S. Dressing is everyone's personal matter.
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Guys, do you think him having G-nail is a contributor to this unfortunate outcome? Or is it purely bad luck with his flu and fasting diet and all that? In other words, if he had chosen some other method like precice do you think the chances of him getting PE would have been lower?
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Guys, do you think him having G-nail is a contributor to this unfortunate outcome? Or is it purely bad luck with his flu and fasting diet and all that? In other words, if he had chosen some other method like precice do you think the chances of him getting PE would have been lower?
The chances would have been the same with Stryde: with weight bearing nails, only 3 weeks of Xarelto were given. So there's no problem in that regard with the nail.
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You mention it happened 6 weeks after his procedure. Now I am curious what the chances are of this being a "coincidence" in some ways. Like it just so happened he got PE while doing lengthening but LL didn't cause his PE actually? Or was this really a direct result of him getting the surgery? This is so sad and scary especially for people like me who are considering G-nail with Dr. G.
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You mention it happened 6 weeks after his procedure. Now I am curious what the chances are of this being a "coincidence" in some ways. Like it just so happened he got PE while doing lengthening but LL didn't cause his PE actually? Or was this really a direct result of him getting the surgery? This is so sad and scary especially for people like me who are considering G-nail with Dr. G.
It had to be related to surgery. As far as I researched, the danger for blood clots is there 3 months after an orthopedic surgery, and some Drs give you Xarelto for 3 months. However, with full mobilization, it's extremely weird for it to happen after 3 weeks, so Giotikas only provided Xarelto for that time taking also into consideracion it's bad side effects. In any case, extremely bad luck was involved: the chance was extremely low, he got flu at the same time and it masked the signs, the taxi driver was an idiot... But of course, you have to wonder if he would be alive if he had taken more Xarelto. Just don't know.
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Hi sorry. Do you mind if I ask what happened with the taxi driver? Did he leave him in cold weather or what?
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Hi sorry. Do you mind if I ask what happened with the taxi driver? Did he leave him in cold weather or what?
Quite the opposite from what I hear...He managed to arrive quickly to the physio centre when the patient started feeling not so well in his taxi and then informed the physio staff who immediately ran to help. It might well be thanks to him that the unlucky patient managed to survive the initial incident before he dies a few days later.
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You speak without knowledge if you say V21 was a fan of the nurse. People who call other people stupid because they don't agree with their opinions expose themselves for what they are. Arrogant. People are allowed to have different opinions. I didn't judge her by her cover. I said I didn't find her highly skilled in communications. You came alone so you had no choice but to get help. If you chose to use a person who wasn't trained in PT to do your PT that is your decision. She did not discover the clicking method. Betz did. I used it on day 2 after watching the Betz video. I even recorded myself on that day and shared the video with others. I ultimately found a better method in a Guichet video. You have no idea on my recovery to conclude you had a better recovery than me. From what are you basing that your recovery was better than anyone - your mind? Or did the nurse tell you that? My recovery is excellent. Just because you liked her doesn't mean I have to. If Dr. Giotikas was dressed in Spandex, at every appointment would you have chosen him? I am sure the deceased is vouching for her right now from the grave.
@LU213 whatever you do in life, do not become a lawyer. Your interpreting skills and conclusions need some serious work. Leave opinions/emotions aside and stick to logic. Using a dead person comically to raise a point is the most childish thing I’ve seen on this forum by far and overall says a lot about your maturity. This must be the difference between paying for your own surgery vs someone’s parents paying for their surgery. I initially wasn't going to bother but crossed the line like a kid with a tantrum. Do you even read what you write? Jesus
Have you used any of the nurses services? Nurses were mainly with their uniform and extremely competent. You have no idea what you’re talking about if this is the judgement you perceive on the nursing team. Make some money for your self first and then come back to this forum because it’s the only way I see it making you an adult, fellow American.
P.S. We can see your edit.
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I start this to help others be aware of the risks. I know the beloved person very well. Those people who troll the forum, never post images, never post about the beloved and only show up to defend the nurses, and attack posters do not help others. Only 2 people wrote about their sadness for the beloved's death in the diaries. V21 was one and LU213 the other. Please stop the high school personal attacks about stupid stuff like its bad thing that parents can afford to pay this procedure. No one cares who pay. Should people have the procedure in the first place? If so what people need to know to stay alive.
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The latest Giotikas interview by cyborg4life is up. It has some segments about PE risks and PE treatment protocols. What do you think guys? Heres the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QODiRKN3lFs
Do you think the blame is more on the medical staff or its really a combination of many factors that lead to his unfortunate outcome.
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I start this to help others be aware of the risks. I know the beloved person very well. Those people who troll the forum, never post images, never post about the beloved and only show up to defend the nurses, and attack posters do not help others. Only 2 people wrote about their sadness for the beloved's death in the diaries. V21 was one and LU213 the other. Please stop the high school personal attacks about stupid stuff like its bad thing that parents can afford to pay this procedure. No one cares who pay. Should people have the procedure in the first place? If so what people need to know to stay alive.
On October 7, I visited the rehabilitation center. That afternoon, I accompanied Paul to complete the whole Pt process. We have been chatting. His Chinese is very good. He shared a lot with me. I thank him very much. He is a very cheerful and smiling boy. I got an email reply from the hospital on November 10 to confirm his brain death. When I saw the email, my heart was broken. I couldn't believe it was true. I collapsed and cried many times that day. But I don't know what happened to him, so I didn't say anything.
(https://i.imgur.com/QVD4SZM.jpg)
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I'm sorry for your loss to all those who knew the patient who left us. If you are completing your lengthening still please stay strong and you will get through the entire process much taller than before :)
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SO sorry for your loss. This is truly devestating. This guy shared the same dream as all of us.
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The latest Giotikas interview by cyborg4life is up. It has some segments about PE risks and PE treatment protocols. What do you think guys? Heres the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QODiRKN3lFs
Do you think the blame is more on the medical staff or its really a combination of many factors that lead to his unfortunate outcome.
Was trash .(not because of Vic)
He did not care at all !
All he said was that his protocol was acceptable and that the person signed the paper 2 months prior .
I think this is the way guichet got over the problem as well !
Pathetic and disgusting .
I hate those doctors to a crazy extent because it might be partially true that we sign for it , but as for anything else (even a lip filler) , but we do not expect to die .
Also , stuff might happen but they can be fixed (Look at Paleys speech of PE and FE) ,but as other patients stated there , if you say something is not ok, "this is hurting that is hurting "and no one does A THING...then the outcome talks for the doctor .
I hope no one in the foreseeable future will pick giotikas (as it happened with guichet) for this procedure.
Also , only 2 deaths besides maybe some in india or idk with unknown doctors , happen with guichet nail .
Does anyone think that there is a correlation ?
I don't think so but it's just weird
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Was trash .(not because of Vic)
He did not care at all !
All he said was that his protocol was acceptable and that the person signed the paper 2 months prior .
I think this is the way guichet got over the problem as well !
Pathetic and disgusting .
I hate those doctors to a crazy extent because it might be partially true that we sign for it , but as for anything else (even a lip filler) , but we do not expect to die .
Also , stuff might happen but they can be fixed (Look at Paleys speech of PE and FE) ,but as other patients stated there , if you say something is not ok, "this is hurting that is hurting "and no one does A THING...then the outcome talks for the doctor .
Do you mean Guichet got a PE death too?! So this means, this kind of nail increases the risk? Does it mean we can choose external or LON/LATN and be safer from PE?
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I would say so.
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Also I do think it was beyond disrespectful how he went and was going over their "protocols" and "safety lines" when a patient is dead and cannot be brought back with these amazing protocols ....
Something went wrong(AND this almost two months after surgery!!!!!) and there should be people hold accountable for this. If not with legal system, then future patients who are thinking to go to Giotikas should NOT got! No height overgoes your wellbeing and living a long life! Please do think many times about which doctor you choose and how invested they will be in your wellbeing. Your wellbeing is their reputation, so trust me - they will care for the sake of something and not find any easy ways out! Thats how I feel with Paley, he will care for the sake of his business and reputation and thats good enough for me!
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Also I do think it was beyond disrespectful how he went and was going over their "protocols" and "safety lines" when a patient is dead and cannot be brought back with these amazing protocols ....
Something went wrong(AND this almost two months after surgery!!!!!) and there should be people hold accountable for this. If not with legal system, then future patients who are thinking to go to Giotikas should NOT got! No height overgoes your wellbeing and living a long life! Please do think many times about which doctor you choose and how invested they will be in your wellbeing. Your wellbeing is their reputation, so trust me - they will care for the sake of something and not find any easy ways out! Thats how I feel with Paley, he will care for the sake of his business and reputation and thats good enough for me!
Not defending other doctors, but I know for a fact that a guy had fat embolism with Paley (he survived) and the Doctor did not care that much about it, being an arrogant idiot.
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I liked giotikas a lot in this video...He seemed very well composed and very thorough in his answers.
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I also liked him yesterday...Open, trustworthy and knowledgeable. He made himself available to everyone and provided complete answers to all questions asked.
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Not defending other doctors, but I know for a fact that a guy had fat embolism with Paley (he survived) and the Doctor did not care that much about it, being an arrogant idiot.
I believe he survived because there was a treatment not because he was left on the bed and said "goodnight deal with it " .
Am I wrong ?
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People come on he did not give a f***.
When asked if prices will drop he said "I don't know."
We don't know either but maybe you can explain lil better or have a surgeon perspective.
Prices will change for sure in a way or another because new nails will eventually come out and more surgeon will perform it so his "explanation l" after the"idk." Made no sense .
More surgeon making it means a drop not a stabilization of prices or increase .
This means he clearly don't care and all he wants is money ,period .
Also " any word for perspective patients?" "No" .
Who ,I mean..WHO IN THE WORLD will pick him after a death case when in an interview he was so calm and giving the vibe of "could not care less" .
Complications can arise , but a death it's a death and saying protocol was "ok" and the patient had signed for it is beyond disrespectfull .
If the dead did not happen the interview was completely fine, but it did and the fact he acted like it didn't concernes me a lot ,not about him as a surgeon only , but as a human being !Period.
Anyone is free to do and pick the surgeon they mostly like tho thisbis just my opinion .
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Based on another post it seems the patient already had a rare underlying condition. I think there was already high risk, irrespective of the doctor.
The guy who was there (don't remember the nickname) said he was completly fine.
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Do you mean Guichet got a PE death too?! So this means, this kind of nail increases the risk? Does it mean we can choose external or LON/LATN and be safer from PE?
Uhm...I honestly don't know but I was asking you all for an opinion .
It's just random according to you or there is a correlation ?
Maybe size and mechanism ..idk
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Uhm...I honestly don't know but I was asking you all for an opinion .
It's just random according to you or there is a correlation ?
Maybe size and mechanism ..idk
I'm just saying both PE deaths were patients who had Guichet nail. Is there a correlation? I don't know either and hopefully someone can shed some light into this. It might help patients who still want to choose Dr. G but not his G-nail.
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According to most doctors PE, fat embolism and osteomyelitis risks are the same after femur nailing regardless of the type of the nails used or whether they are inserted from the hip or from the knee.
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...
When asked if prices will drop he said "I don't know."
We don't know either but maybe you can explain lil better or have a surgeon perspective...
Also " any word for perspective patients?" "No" .
Who ,I mean..WHO IN THE WORLD will pick him after a death case when in an interview he was so calm and giving the vibe of "could not care less" .
Complications can arise , but a death it's a death and saying protocol was "ok" and the patient had signed for it is beyond disrespectfull .
If the dead did not happen the interview was completely fine, but it did and the fact he acted like it didn't concernes me a lot ,not about him as a surgeon only , but as a human being !Period.
Anyone is free to do and pick the surgeon they mostly like tho thisbis just my opinion .
Calm down mate..We are all just expressing our opinions here.
About future prices: I wouldn't like a doctor speculating about anything when they don't have evidence. We can speculate freely here but doctors ought to be more careful when they speak. I prefer to hear " I don't know" when they don't; It's not for them to be worried about future prices from now anyway. This is mainly our problem.
About "any words for prospective patients": He took the time to answer to all questions in detail, patiently and with evidence, I didn't mind that he didn't make a statement in the end, other the "happy holiday season to all".
He was "so calm" because probably the tragic incident was a random or unavoidable event. He did say somewhere ".. the independent scrutiny didn't show any fault and this was a small relief for us" (or something like that, anyway). I don't know if in your country you believe that all complications are doctor's fault but I don't. Bear in mind that doctors are far more familiar than us with complications and deaths and Giotikas has worked in big trauma centres in the UK and even in war zones as a military surgeon so he has probably seen a lot! I am sure that he must have been devastated with what has happened but he has to carry on, doesn't he?
Needless to say I respect you beliefs.
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Calm down mate..We are all just expressing our opinions here.
About future prices: I wouldn't like a doctor speculating about anything when they don't have evidence. We can speculate freely here but doctors ought to be more careful when they speak. I prefer to hear " I don't know" when they don't; It's not for them to be worried about future prices from now anyway. This is mainly our problem.
About "any words for prospective patients": He took the time to answer to all questions in detail, patiently and with evidence, I didn't mind that he didn't make a statement in the end, other the "happy holiday season to all".
He was "so calm" because probably the tragic incident was a random or unavoidable event. He did say somewhere ".. the independent scrutiny didn't show any fault and this was a small relief for us" (or something like that, anyway). I don't know if in your country you believe that all complications are doctor's fault but I don't. Bear in mind that doctors are far more familiar than us with complications and deaths and Giotikas has worked in big trauma centres in the UK and even in war zones as a military surgeon so he has probably seen a lot! I am sure that he must have been devastated with what has happened but he has to carry on, doesn't he?
Needless to say I respect you beliefs.
I am here yo express my belief as well and not forcing anyone to do or not do anything but , I don't agree with your statment.
If CLL had such an unpredictable outcome like some doctors try to make us think ,then it would have been illegal in most countries , like the eye surgery thing .
It's not a Russian roulette !
I understand that something bad can happen and ppl died for way less invasive cosmetic surgeries ,but the guys in greece said that the guy complained several times and no one cared .
Also I did say that the interview was fine if he didn't have a death and all he said was that " an independent scrutiny " said that they protocol were acceptable .
For the money ppl spend on this , an acceptable protocol is not enough.
And hided behind the paper signed 2 months prior ..like...we know we sign for it but do you believe he did all he could to save him ?
This is the question I am making ,not that bad stuff can't happen , but that I am not sure he ( and his staff)did all they could to save him .(as some patients also stated by confirming the guy complained and no one cared) .
Those are the words of ppl with no interest in either side so him having "apparent " integrity on an interview doesn't say anything to me .
Again , I would never chose him ;would rather quit on the surgery then choose him,Guichet,betz and co. (Let alone some others that brave the ones who pick them ) .
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I liked Giotikas' responses. Of course limb lengthening is unlikely to get cheaper in the next 5 years. The only way it could become cheaper is if there is a sudden influx of quality doctors providing it.
Regarding Paley's fat embolism case, I believe he said that this had never happened before prior to COVID. Someone also mentioned the patient who died in Athens was unvaccinated. So there may also be some correlation with the pandemic.
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I liked Giotikas' responses. Of course limb lengthening is unlikely to get cheaper in the next 5 years. The only way it could become cheaper is if there is a sudden influx of quality doctors providing it.
Regarding Paley's fat embolism case, I believe he said that this had never happened before prior to COVID. Someone also mentioned the patient who died in Athens was unvaccinated. So there may also be some correlation with the pandemic.
I hope we can still confirm whether the patient contracted COVID or not. I read he did a rapid test and it came out negative but still. I know this may sound bad but if he had COVID and having the virus was part of the reason why he developed PE, that would put a lot of potential patients at ease.
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I liked Giotikas' responses. Of course limb lengthening is unlikely to get cheaper in the next 5 years. The only way it could become cheaper is if there is a sudden influx of quality doctors providing it.
Regarding Paley's fat embolism case, I believe he said that this had never happened before prior to COVID. Someone also mentioned the patient who died in Athens was unvaccinated. So there may also be some correlation with the pandemic.
A Paley patient with a diary from 2014 got a fatty emboli in his lungs and at the time Dr Paley said he was the second patient in the last 3 years that got it.
I doubt the embolism had anything to do with COVID in either case.
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A Paley patient with a diary from 2014 got a fatty emboli in his lungs and at the time Dr Paley said he was the second patient in the last 3 years that got it.
I doubt the embolism had anything to do with COVID in either case.
Thanks for clarifying. I know Paley mentioned recently (in an interview - possibly with cyborg4life I think?) something along the lines of there being higher reports of emboli or clots in 2020 and the only thing that had changed was the pandemic. Maybe someone else can confirm...
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Hey, guys, so the cause of this incredible tragedy has not been determined yet... I am very heartbroken and shocked. Such a tragedy should not come to such a self disciplined and active person. At the same time, I am afraid that there may not be a specific reason for such a tragedy, such as the hospital or whose fault, but it seems that there is no such reason now, What I fear most is that this tragedy is just because our brother is unlucky, because if so, this tragedy may come to anyone, and it may not be avoided no matter how hard we try. Can someone give us a reassuring explanation？…
Grieve for him again…
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…If CLL had such an unpredictable outcome like some doctors try to make us think…
the guy complained several times and no one cared
… " an independent scrutiny " said that they protocol were acceptable . For the money ppl spend on this , an acceptable protocol is not enough….
And hided behind the paper signed 2 months prior,we know we sign for….
Hi, I don’t know which doctors you are referring to, but the doctors I know do not present LL as “ unpredictable”. Giotikas said that dying from PE and fat embolism is a rare but real possibility. like 1 in 7000-10000 cases. Now if you think for a moment that that there have been 2-3 deaths from PE and another few cases of fat embolism in the last let ‘say 10-15 years, and there are maybe 1000-1500 LL surgeries done par year then the numbers do add up and make sense. This not unpredictable imo.
You don’t know the type of complains the died patient did. Maybe they were completely irrelevant to PE. Most of Giotikas’s patients say that he is always very responsive to provide solutions to patient’s concerns, problems etc. Afterall PE is not something that you have for weeks in your body before it decides to kill you. It happens within hours or a couple of days.
A verdict of an independent scrutiny would never use words like “very good, excellent, fantastic etc” they use terms like “ satisfactory- non satisfactory/ acceptable non acceptable etc”. You need to interpret these terms literally and binary. If they didn’t find anything I tend to believe that the incident was unavoidable or random or within statistics.
The informed consent process is very important in the West. It is one thing if you have a complication during a treatment as a doctor and a whole different story if you haven’t informed the patient about this possibility when you were discussing the treatment. Giotikas is a UK trained surgeon so this is inside him now.
I understand that you hate Giotikas but systematically defaming him based on your personal explanations of unproved facts is unethical, or at least wrong. I believe that you would be more relactunt to do it if for example giotikas was working in the same country with you and could sue you for professional defamation.
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I would like to ask if the patient can make some preparations before the operation to avoid fat embolism. For example, light diet, vitamin C supplementation, reducing body fat rate and so on. I know that in many ll cases, only a few fat embolism will occur. I don't want to be the unfortunate one. I want to try my best to make myself successful
But I'm still scared. According to the comments on the forum, Dr. giotikas should be a very good and experienced doctor, but the tragedy still happens to his patients, including I heard that some of Betz's patients also die. Is it because their ability is not enough or just because of bad luck? Because Dr. Lee, Dr. Paley and Dr. A, which seem to be more top doctors, have no death cases or even serious consequences
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.... Such a tragedy should not come to such a self disciplined and active person. At the same time, I am afraid that there may not be a specific reason for such a tragedy, such as the hospital or whose fault, but it seems that there is no such reason now, What I fear most is that this tragedy is just because our brother is unlucky, because if so, this tragedy may come to anyone, and it may not be avoided no matter how hard we try. Can someone give us a reassuring explanation？…
Grieve for him again…
Imo, the only reassurance is that it is very rare to happen. Choose a good doctor that you trust, stick to their advice, discuss openly all yourconcerns and symptoms,exercise within reason, eat well and stay hydrated.
I discovered recently that too much exercising or dehydration could also cause clots and PE.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2040580/DVT-I-developed-life-threatening-blood-clot-I-exercised-TOO-much.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2040580/DVT-I-developed-life-threatening-blood-clot-I-exercised-TOO-much.html)
https://www.stoptheclot.org/about-clots/athletes-and-blood-clots/ (https://www.stoptheclot.org/about-clots/athletes-and-blood-clots/)
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I would like to ask if the patient can make some preparations before the operation to avoid fat embolism. For example, light diet, vitamin C supplementation, reducing body fat rate and so on. I know that in many ll cases, only a few fat embolism will occur. I don't want to be the unfortunate one. I want to try my best to make myself successful
But I'm still scared. According to the comments on the forum, Dr. giotikas should be a very good and experienced doctor, but the tragedy still happens to his patients, including I heard that some of Betz's patients also die. Is it because their ability is not enough or just because of bad luck? Because Dr. Lee, Dr. Paley and Dr. A, which seem to be more top doctors, have no death cases or even serious consequences
If you read previous posts you will see that Paley had his fair share of fat embolisms in the past, which proves that it can happen to anyone. I also think that the more cases you do the more the chances statistically of something going wrong. From that prespective, rare things are more possible to occur in more experienced doctors who do more cases and maybe more complex cases. I dont think that Betz, Lee and A do as many LL cases as Giotikas does, and certainly not as many as Paley!
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Yes, I've seen that post, but Paley handled it well and the patient finally recovered. I think it also reflects his good ability.
And thank you for your advice! Although this seems a very disturbing fact, we may all need to gamble with fate
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1 in 7000 chance of death from PE. Giochet has done 700 cases and has had 1 known death. Giotikas probably far fewer cases and has had 1 known death. Paley probably way more but no known deaths (I think?)
We should get stats from Betz. If even he has had deaths then maybe the clicking mechanism MIGHT have something to do with it.
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Hi, I don’t know which doctors you are referring to, but the doctors I know do not present LL as “ unpredictable”. Giotikas said that dying from PE and fat embolism is a rare but real possibility. like 1 in 7000-10000 cases. Now if you think for a moment that that there have been 2-3 deaths from PE and another few cases of fat embolism in the last let ‘say 10-15 years, and there are maybe 1000-1500 LL surgeries done par year then the numbers do add up and make sense. This not unpredictable imo.
You don’t know the type of complains the died patient did. Maybe they were completely irrelevant to PE. Most of Giotikas’s patients say that he is always very responsive to provide solutions to patient’s concerns, problems etc. Afterall PE is not something that you have for weeks in your body before it decides to kill you. It happens within hours or a couple of days.
A verdict of an independent scrutiny would never use words like “very good, excellent, fantastic etc” they use terms like “ satisfactory- non satisfactory/ acceptable non acceptable etc”. You need to interpret these terms literally and binary. If they didn’t find anything I tend to believe that the incident was unavoidable or random or within statistics.
The informed consent process is very important in the West. It is one thing if you have a complication during a treatment as a doctor and a whole different story if you haven’t informed the patient about this possibility when you were discussing the treatment. Giotikas is a UK trained surgeon so this is inside him now.
I understand that you hate Giotikas but systematically defaming him based on your personal explanations of unproved facts is unethical, or at least wrong. I believe that you would be more relactunt to do it if for example giotikas was working in the same country with you and could sue you for professional defamation.
All your points makes sense to me but as you said ,the patient complaint might have not been related to PE as they might have .
I was not there and you were not there either .
Also , former patients said he had no clue of the ratchet mechanism...how do you perform a surgery on people like that ?
Another said the PT damaged him .
Some say something and some the opposite but they all agree that he had not clue about the mechanicm and that the guy complained and no one cared ;not my words but about patients at the hospital .
As I said ,I don't think giotikas did all he could to save him and I think this is kinda clear because he did not dide under treatment but untreated (as far As I read so far) .
I don't hate giotikas but as guichet has a death case and got demonized for the same exact kind of death , I don't understand why giotikas earned a better treatment after the same scenario .
Guichet also crippled a girl and we all agree he is to avoid , but I don't see giotikas any better ;
Several patients said he suggested a lenghetning of 1.33 (one was for fear of pre cons but the other was totally fine and got suggested so and he stated he still did 1mm and ended up fine ,but not thanks to giotikas) .
We are here to speak freely and I always say "my opinion" and I don't put them out there as universal rules ,but facts are facts and the one I mentioned above are not my words but current patients that might be hiding also something because still under treatment .
So it is not correct as well to come at me and say that I have no facts because if u scroll through recent posts and topics all I said has been said by current patients not my assumptions.
You are free to make your choiche , I just don't understand why some of you defend him even if he did not display any particular care or skill out of ordinary .
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If you read previous posts you will see that Paley had his fair share of fat embolisms in the past, which proves that it can happen to anyone. I also think that the more cases you do the more the chances statistically of something going wrong. From that prespective, rare things are more possible to occur in more experienced doctors who do more cases and maybe more complex cases. I dont think that Betz, Lee and A do as many LL cases as Giotikas does, and certainly not as many as Paley!
Giotikas literally became famous this couple past years .
So maybe right now with the wb nail he is doing more but total amount no way he has more then Lee or Paley .not a chance .
And you also proved my point in a certain way :
-Paley and Lee 0 death cases in a long lasting career with lots of CLLs
-giotikas literally just started doing CLL with many patients and look at the outcome he just had .
Am I wrong ?
Was he famous 10 years ago? Or 5 ?
Actuall question cause I saw posts about him literally just 1 or max 2 years ago .
Anyway no way he has more cases then 2 doctors like Paley or Lee , not a chance.
I don't want to start a "beef"with you but I hope this can be a constructive argue even with totally different opinions .
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Guys we need to find such statistics from all surgeons before assuming anything. How many cases has each surgeon done, how many cases of PE and then death.
for Betz, Paley, Assayag, Rozbruch, and so on
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@LU213 whatever you do in life, do not become a lawyer. Your interpreting skills and conclusions need some serious work. Leave opinions/emotions aside and stick to logic. Using a dead person comically to raise a point is the most childish thing I’ve seen on this forum by far and overall says a lot about your maturity. This must be the difference between paying for your own surgery vs someone’s parents paying for their surgery. I initially wasn't going to bother but crossed the line like a kid with a tantrum. Do you even read what you write? Jesus
Have you used any of the nurses services? Nurses were mainly with their uniform and extremely competent. You have no idea what you’re talking about if this is the judgement you perceive on the nursing team. Make some money for your self first and then come back to this forum because it’s the only way I see it making you an adult, fellow American.
P.S. We can see your edit.
If by uniform you mean the "Cheap Slutty Nurse Uniform- collection 2021", so yes, they wore the uniform to the letter.
Although again, if you want to have access to those kinds of services while having your bandages changed by a junior college student, the role couldn't be more realistic.
Now, if you are an intelligent person who is conscious about the risks or this surgery, and you're looking for a professional and qualified team and service, with a head nurse who really knows what she/he is doing, then I would look elsewhere.
There is no way in hell I would put myself in the hands of the same team of nurses under whose command a patient has died, for one reason or another. Especially not with the head nurse.
And for the record, if a nursing professional accepts money from her patient to go take pictures of him, or take him to the movies hand in hand, explain to me what kind of nursing job she is doing for him.
If you are looking for escort girls who play being nurses, this is your team.
If you're looking to go home alive after this surgery, is not.
But it's your life, in the end you decide what value you put on it.
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Not a patient from here, but I just remember reading in another patient's diary (LU213) that he was asked to turn to the side and throw up on a piece of cloth or something they put on the floor during his hospital stay and his family members helped clean up. That was quite questionable. He even put a photo of this arrangement on his diary.
But commenting on their clothes is not appropriate. If it's the uniform there, then it's the uniform. Cultures are different and we should not comment on such things. It is unfortunate that they don't get to wear comfortable clothing like nurses in the US but if it's the norm, we should not blame the nurses for this.
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1 in 7000 chance of death from PE. Giochet has done 700 cases and has had 1 known death. Giotikas probably far fewer cases and has had 1 known death. Paley probably way more but no known deaths (I think?)
We should get stats from Betz. If even he has had deaths then maybe the clicking mechanism MIGHT have something to do with it.
Albizzia nail and family(betzbone and guichet nails) and other clicking nails (like ISKD) have been around since the 90's and more than a few thousands must have been implanted by all surgeons of that generation. Paley and Lee themselves have used them and have published studies that you can find online. If PE was related to the implant itself it would have shown through all these years, there wouldn't just have been 2-3 cases. You can't really have the same parameter applied to thousands of patients and only cause problem in 2 or 3 and then you come out and say that it was that paritcular parameter that caused it; Statistics doesn't work like that.
What is a proven fact is quite the opposite: Non weight bearing and immobility is a proven common factor for thrombosis. All doctors seem to agree with this because they prescribe blood thinners for the whole immobility period ie 4-5 months. But even with blood thinners the risk of blood clot is around 1-2%! from that prespective mechanical nails must theoritically be safer because of their weight bearing capacity.
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Albizzia nail and family(betzbone and guichet nails) and other clicking nails (like ISKD) have been around since the 90's and more than a few thousands must have been implanted by all surgeons of that generation. Paley and Lee themselves have used them and have published studies that you can find online. If PE was related to the implant itself it would have shown through all these years, there wouldn't just have been 2-3 cases. You can't really have the same parameter applied to thousands of patients and only cause problem in 2 or 3 and then you come out and say that it was that paritcular parameter that caused it; Statistics doesn't work like that.
What is a proven fact is quite the opposite: Non weight bearing and immobility is a proven common factor for thrombosis. All doctors seem to agree with this because they prescribe blood thinners for the whole immobility period ie 4-5 months. But even with blood thinners the risk of blood clot is around 1-2%! from that prespective mechanical nails must theoritically be safer because of their weight bearing capacity.
Ok so we are gonna ignore the fact that surgeons with was less cases had a death but renowned ones like Paley,Rozbruch or Lee have 0 deaths with far more cases (1k+) and assume it was just luck based according to you/some others .
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If by uniform you mean the "Cheap Slutty Nurse Uniform- collection 2021", so yes, they wore the uniform to the letter.
Although again, if you want to have access to those kinds of services while having your bandages changed by a junior college student, the role couldn't be more realistic.
Now, if you are an intelligent person who is conscious about the risks or this surgery, and you're looking for a professional and qualified team and service, with a head nurse who really knows what she/he is doing, then I would look elsewhere.
There is no way in hell I would put myself in the hands of the same team of nurses under whose command a patient has died, for one reason or another. Especially not with the head nurse.
And for the record, if a nursing professional accepts money from her patient to go take pictures of him, or take him to the movies hand in hand, explain to me what kind of nursing job she is doing for him.
If you are looking for escort girls who play being nurses, this is your team.
If you're looking to go home alive after this surgery, is not.
But it's your life, in the end you decide what value you put on it.
Escort girls? Dude, what's wrong with you? Some nurse tried to rape you or what that you are texting such BS here? And who the hell are you at all? Every patient knows each other here both in forum and in reality. When you did this surgery at all?
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I pray for this guy that passed away and hope his family and other loved ones get through this pain. Can only imagine who he told and didn't tell and they find out he passed away like this. This is a good reminder to all of us to keep in mind of the risk when doing this. I also heard from a doctor that this isnt the riskiest cosmetic surgery out there. Is it possible operating doctor on this patient just wasnt as qualified as others in catching whatever happened soon enough to save the patient? I also think about how kanye west mom died during a cosmetic procedure. So it is true that any surgery has risk by i also agree with others who stated why havent we heard about this from other doctors. This definitely isn't a common thing. Is it possible that qualified doctors just know how to make proper adjustments based on complications while this doctor didn't?
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An independent review found there was no fault on behalf of the doctor or the hospital. Plus Giotikas has been working for the NHS in the UK over a decade and frequently deals with war injuries. Cosmetic limb lengthening cases are amongst the easiest cases he treats. Granted, he is fairly new to the G-nail but I don't think the method makes much of a difference. I really think this is mostly down to bad luck.
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Do you guys find the doctor warm and willing to answer questions? Or does he appear cold and with the attitude "just do as I say, don't ask too many questions"?
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Do you guys find the doctor warm and willing to answer questions? Or does he appear cold and with the attitude "just do as I say, don't ask too many questions"?
You can more or less see for yourself by doing his 15 minute consultation. its free.
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You can more or less see for yourself by doing his 15 minute consultation. its free.
I'm hoping to hear from patients who've gone through the procedure with him.
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I'm hoping to hear from patients who've gone through the procedure with him.
I’m here in Athens. Week 5 for me. The doctor is very professional and always answers my WhatsApps. He believes strongly in his protocol and that he is doing the right thing. However you can ask him to try different medicines and more dosage and he works with you. The only thing most patients don’t understand is why during the inflammation phase ( clicks are painful for 8-10 days) we need to increase clicks to 21 a day for 7 days. . Some patient do it, some don’t, everyone turned out fine.
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I’m here in Athens. Week 5 for me. The doctor is very professional and always answers my WhatsApps. He believes strongly in his protocol and that he is doing the right thing. However you can ask him to try different medicines and more dosage and he works with you. The only thing most patients don’t understand is why during the inflammation phase ( clicks are painful for 8-10 days) we need to increase clicks to 21 a day for 7 days. . Some patient do it, some don’t, everyone turned out fine.
He does not get angry if you ask him to change any protocols like "I don't want to click 21 a day during inflammation phase, I don't want to take pain killers" or other questions you might repeatedly ask because of fear and worry?
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He is not like Betz in the sense of stopping to answer your messages after a while. I'm more than 3 months post-op and he always answers all my doubts, regardless of how many they are. In fact, he does it pretty fast usually. So he is very professional in that regard. Of couse, he is not "warm", but that's his character. For example, he tends to give short explanations because he is the doctor and he is the one who has knowledge about the situation. From a personal standpoint, I like people like Assayag who dedicate time to explain patients even the most minor things, but that's not common between doctors: the common rule is that they just expect you to comply.
This is not a critic to Giotikas because, as I said, that is the common character for doctors. To sum up, I would say he is pretty professional and won't let you hanging like other doctors, but of course, you can't expect "moral" support if that's what you are asking.
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He does not get angry if you ask him to change any protocols like "I don't want to click 21 a day during inflammation phase, I don't want to take pain killers" or other questions you might repeatedly ask because of fear and worry?
No, he does not get angry. He just speak very official. Most patients did not do 21 clicks. Everyone’ has concerns so he understands we ask him lots of questions. Also because we are 10 patients here, we all speak to each other and try to give the best advice that worked for each of us. .
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He is not like Betz in the sense of stopping to answer your messages after a while. I'm more than 3 months post-op and he always answers all my doubts, regardless of how many they are. In fact, he does it pretty fast usually. So he is very professional in that regard. Of couse, he is not "warm", but that's his character. For example, he tends to give short explanations because he is the doctor and he is the one who has knowledge about the situation. From a personal standpoint, I like people like Assayag who dedicate time to explain patients even the most minor things, but that's not common between doctors: the common rule is that they just expect you to comply.
This is not a critic to Giotikas because, as I said, that is the common character for doctors. To sum up, I would say he is pretty professional and won't let you hanging like other doctors, but of course, you can't expect "moral" support if that's what you are asking.
Exactly. Well said. He gives answers and is very respectful but he is not a therapist who encourages you and deals with emotional or moral support. He does not give long detailed explanations for his reasoning etc. Its more like this is what’s doctor said let’s try our best to follow it.
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No, he does not get angry. He just speak very official. Most patients did not do 21 clicks. Everyone’ has concerns so he understands we ask him lots of questions. Also because we are 10 patients here, we all speak to each other and try to give the best advice that worked for each of us. .
10 patients and are you all G-Nail patients?
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10 patients and are you all G-Nail patients?
No. 2 presice. 2 Externals on Tibias. The rest G-nail.
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it is nice to hear that you guys have formed a group with each other. at least you have each other for support during the process! good luck to all of you :)
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Actually, he can even be supportive. Maybe that's not very common. But for example I was very disappointed about my condition after the nailing surgery. We had 2 talks: first one while I was still in the hospital and another one via video call. He really tried to motivate me.
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No. 2 presice. 2 Externals on Tibias. The rest G-nail.
Bro, a little correction: 2 Precise, 2 LATN tibia, the rest G-nail. :)
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你做手术了吗
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Although I understand that the cause of this tragedy is not anyone's fault, I still want to ask, if the symptoms of this unfortunate patient can be detected early, whether by himself or by the hospital, and attract enough attention from doctors to save the crisis? Or can patients just watch themselves get embolism and die willingly?
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i want to know too. it seems this patient was just doing his normal routine, walking a lot and going to PT and suddenly died?
what could he have done to prevent it? was he showing any symptoms at all but thought it was just because of his "flu" ?
honestly, im still very concerned about this and makes me want to reconsider doing Gnail in 2022..
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i want to know too. it seems this patient was just doing his normal routine, walking a lot and going to PT and suddenly died?
what could he have done to prevent it? was he showing any symptoms at all but thought it was just because of his "flu" ?
honestly, im still very concerned about this and makes me want to reconsider doing Gnail in 2022..
Well, there is always risk in any surgery.
There was also thrombosis happened in Stryde nail after 2 months operation.
However, this patient was cautious and went for a check after finding his leg was swollen and painful.
Always check with the Doc or go for examination if the pain and swelling did not improve, do not assume it is normal for LL.
Generally speaking in life: If your fears or concern about something overshadow your hopes.
You should consider changing/postponing/cancelling your LL Plan.
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Well, there is always risk in any surgery.
There was also thrombosis happened in Stryde nail after 2 months operation.
However, this patient was cautious and went for a check after finding his leg was swollen and painful.
Always check with the Doc or go for examination if the pain and swelling did not improve, do not assume it is normal for LL.
Generally speaking in life: If your fears or concern about something overshadow your hopes.
You should consider changing/postponing/cancelling your LL Plan.
We know that a surgery carries risks but what they (and me too) are wondering its :what could be been done and what will be done in case this happens to someone else .
Someone will have an embolism and we don't know who ,therefore knowing a way to detect/prevent it asap is key and that is what we are asking .
Maybe make it scans frequently?
Ll is panifull and it's like normal flu and covid , how can you 100% know what u are experiencing?
No one after such a trauma want to think at all the stuff we have to PLUS try to see any sign of embolism here or there because it's just unfair after all ..so we get it surgery has risks but what can we and the surgeon do to prevent those things from happening?
Sure that xeralto from day 1 till end of distraction and walking as much as possible are 2 factors, but what else to be more sure ?
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We know that a surgery carries risks but what they (and me too) are wondering its :what could be been done and what will be done in case this happens to someone else .
Someone will have an embolism and we don't know who ,therefore knowing a way to detect/prevent it asap is key and that is what we are asking .
Maybe make it scans frequently?
Ll is panifull and it's like normal flu and covid , how can you 100% know what u are experiencing?
No one after such a trauma want to think at all the stuff we have to PLUS try to see any sign of embolism here or there because it's just unfair after all ..so we get it surgery has risks but what can we and the surgeon do to prevent those things from happening?
Sure that xeralto from day 1 till end of distraction and walking as much as possible are 2 factors, but what else to be more sure ?
Self awareness of underlining illness or family blood clot history, daily sure of swelling or abnormal pain, breathing or chest pain.
Always tell Doc or go for examination if needed
Periodic Ultrasound scan for blood Clot helps for detection but again not 100% as the Clot can form within days.
We cannot be doing the scan daily.
There is no 100% protection net - what we can do is to minimize that hitrate of 1%
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They are brain dead. It happened in the 6th week of lengthening and he was only given 2 weeks of Xeralto (blood thinner). So far I've seen maybe 4 deaths from LL and all of them were from DVT/PE. One this, another that indian guy whose sister wrote the blog about it and another 2 were in India (1 African girl and 1 indian girl). Maybe there are more that are not public.
Were they all doing internal femur lengthening? I've always believed that internal femur is more dangerous and that more things can easily go wrong.
And to add, Dr. Catagni and Dr. Solomin have reported 1 death each from anesthesia complications the last time I talked to them. Maybe the number has increased since but I certainly hope not.
I find it tiring how a lot of people here try to justify all bad outcomes with "rare conditions" or "bad doctors"... this is a high-risk surgery, even when doing everything correctly there is a TRUE chance you may die. You have to make peace with it...
I'm not sure about that. It shouldn't be so dangerous especially for the tibias. It's far from internal organs like heart, lungs or brain. I don't think we should say there is a true chance of dying. But again, there is also a true chance that we may die on the airplane on the way to Athens.
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Were they all doing internal femur lengthening? I've always believed that internal femur is more dangerous and that more things can easily go wrong.
And to add, Dr. Catagni and Dr. Solomin have reported 1 death each from anesthesia complications the last time I talked to them. Maybe the number has increased since but I certainly hope not.
I'm not sure about that. It shouldn't be so dangerous especially for the tibias. It's far from internal organs like heart, lungs or brain. I don't think we should say there is a true chance of dying. But again, there is also a true chance that we may die on the airplane on the way to Athens.
Hi dude
Forum Folks and you are not doctor, stop making your own assumptions.
Take the opinions or feedback as a guide not rule or yardstick for your decision.
The best option is to consult a few LL doctors and do full detailed body check up in your country hospital.
Every surgery will have risk, it is matter of quantify risk level and an individual Physical body conditions
You can classify the risk level of 3 out 10 is high, other may view it as low.
My Gnail pain level was low (2 or 3 out 10) since day one and my clicking was easy.
My Journey in LL was uneventful which was totally different what others Gnail patients feedback here.
You are smart guy and should determine what is amplification, dramatization and overstatement in this Forum.
In life, if your fears overshadow your hopes, you should cancel or change your plan.
Take Care!
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Hi dude
Forum Folks and you are not doctor, stop making your own assumptions.
Take the opinions or feedback as a guide not rule or yardstick for your decision.
The best option is to consult a few LL doctors and do full detailed body check up in your country hospital.
Every surgery will have risk, it is matter of quantify risk level and an individual Physical body conditions
You can classify the risk level of 3 out 10 is high, other may view it as low.
My Gnail pain level was low (2 or 3 out 10) since day one and my clicking was easy.
My Journey in LL was uneventful which was totally different what others Gnail patients feedback here.
You are smart guy and should determine what is amplification, dramatization and overstatement in this Forum.
In life, if your fears overshadow your hopes, you should cancel or change your plan.
Take Care!
I'm not a doctor and I'm just pointing out the fact that most (if not all) of the cases that ended up real bad like this dead patient and Unicorn are from doing internal femur lengthening. And this consistency is too strong to be just a coincidence.
Low pain level doesn't mean safer.
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I'm not a doctor and I'm just pointing out the fact that most (if not all) of the cases that ended up real bad like this dead patient and Unicorn are from doing internal femur lengthening. And this consistency is too strong to be just a coincidence.
Low pain level doesn't mean safer.
dun do it then
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Bagga are there no new patients there right now? How come nobody is writing diaries or even updating them?
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I would also like to know if there are any new patients after this unfortunate event happened?
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Bagga are there no new patients there right now? How come nobody is writing diaries or even updating them?
There are new patients as far as i know
why no diary? you are funny to ask such question, it is up to individual to write and share their experiences
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There is also a case of a guy who started a diary and deleted it a week or so after the surgery. At first I thought that people just didn`t see that much value in writing new gnail diaries after that first wave, now I think it is little bit suspicious.
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There is also a case of a guy who started a diary and deleted it a week or so after the surgery. At first I thought that people just didn`t see that much value in writing new gnail diaries after that first wave, now I think it is little bit suspicious.
The best thing for you to do - not to speculate, book appointment with Doctor, talk with him and get existing or ex patients for references.
You can also consult few LL doctors before making your decision
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The best thing for you to do - not to speculate, book appointment with Doctor, talk with him and get existing or ex patients for references.
You can also consult few LL doctors before making your decision
Ex patients obviously won't agree.
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Ex patients obviously won't agree.
Speculation and Wild guess again in this Forum!
From what i know, Doc did request existing patients to email to the new patients to share the experiences.
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Hey bagga, what was your experience like with the Montaza Hotel or the Hyatt Hotel in Athens? It seems Dr. Gioitkas has patients stay there for 4 weeks
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hey nyc! For Giotikas in Athens, what have been your thoughts on the Montaza Hotel vs Hyatt hotel! Currently planning to stay in Athens in the Montaza hotel for the handicap room for 1 month and then a most standard room the rest of the time. Heard its noisy. Might look into switching to Hyatt if the noise gets too bad.
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@Masteryourlife People die in the hospital all the time so that really is not a great test of the quality of the hospital. The original hospital (Mediterraneo) which I think was horrible in customer service, in fact had nothing to do with his death. He died in another hospital and it was probably too late by time he got to them. I also bet this local hospital did not have the latest and greatest equipment or medical team. There are probably people who died in each LL program. This one is well known because so many patients were there in Greece at the time and only one of them was bold enough to create this thread.
The chief nurse dressed in tight spandex pants and low cut, short and tight shirts. I prefer to have a skilled nurse that dresses in a professional manner than one that dresses provocatively. I did not find her to be highly skilled in communications and for that reason I would not let her come to my airbnb to help for nothing. She is not the reason the others did well. Maybe they did well in spite of her. All she did is help people click, transport and help with other tasks. I clicked way better without her. However, if the poor guy was sick prior to that date and had pain that he told to the chief nurse and she, chalked it up to the LL surgery, did not tell the doctor or urge a D-dimer test or an ultrasound, then she was negligent. This though I don't know.
I had a blood clot in a small vein in my lower right leg before. Don't know where it came from. It felt weird, like my leg was partially asleep. I noticed the difference in blood flow in the leg. Something wasn't right. I could walk and exercise but it felt worse when I was laying down. Mostly weird feeling but not so much pain. I kept trying to massage it to bring it to life. I researched the internet to try to find out what it could be. You can't see it in an xray. I had to argue with the doctors to get an ultrasound because I had no risk factors. Eventually they gave me an ultrasound. It went away with baby aspirin and B-12. I felt it right away when it was gone. This clot though was not DVT because it was not in a deep vein.
We don't have autopsy results so we don't know if fasting was the cause of the blood clot. Like Jack Hanna said it produces only a minimal increase in the risk. Dr. Giotikas always prescribed blood thinners but only for about 3 weeks. He told me he hasn't decided to prescribe it for the entire lengthening phase. He even sent an official email stating the same. Interesting that @Jack Hanna says he now prescribes it longer. So maybe he has changed since he sent the email.
Many doctors with extensive legal teams have been brought down with a skilled plaintiff's legal team. I for one don't have enough information to blame anyone. We haven't seen the evidence. Sometimes unforeseen occurrences befall us.
hey! I'm going to do g-nail internal femur at the Montaza Hotel. What should I know about the nurses, the PT, embolisms, and Montaza Hotel before going?
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What are your thoughts on massage guns in addition to the PT in Athens? Bad idea? Unsure if I want to buy 100 USD for a massage gun but I heard some good things about it