Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Patients Experiences => Topic started by: SpeedDialer on September 14, 2022, 06:52:48 PM
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Giotikas is pronounced "ya-tee-kahss"
nai (neh) means yes in greek. oh-hee means no.
will have IV needle in left hand early on, but the pain of it dulls over time
The road outside Montaza Hotel (one place where he sends nurses) is narrow. parked cars make it harder to see fast bikers driving by but you can hear them, prolly don't listen to music on road
peeing in hospital bed:
when lying in bed, angle penis down into bottle (awkward but better than the pee falling back at you)
first day after surgery need more effort/force to get pee out
When done: Pull penis out of pee bottle w/ a tissue, catches misc pee
asking hospital staff to empty pee bottle whenever they come is useful
good to poo before go to hospital + before see doctor if can (pooing in bed in hospital = nightmare, you just get a pail/pan/paper, don't think they have any other options until they teach you how to get to toilet)
recommend not drink the tea or coffee they give till they teach you how to go to toilet, hot liquids can trigger urge to poo
m1 macbook air/m2 macbook air = awesome for this, can lift one handed (useful w/ IV needle in one hand), long battery life, doesn't get hot. Lighter + brighter=better
sleep mask/earplugs seem to help, the hospital + hotel both near car noise
accidental clicks tend to happen when legs not straight or transferring in/out of bed or wheelchair
lip balm/chapstick, toothbrush, floss, cleaning wipes, earbuds, phone, laptop helpful to have in easy to reach backpack pocket during hospital stay, still ask for help reaching them tho
for shorts, prolly want them to be very very loose and way oversized (easier to get on/off+stretch) but have ability to tighten at top w/ drawstring to prevent it from falling down. don't put phone in loose pocket though.
hospital/hotel plain white greek yogurt very plain and almost cheese-tasting-> ask for jam/honey to add if want sweeter
look for a pack of salt w/ hospital meal, it is there somewhere, salt good w/ bread and olive oil (ask)
heavy hiccuping after surgery -> you can try drinking water, but might not help, but will cause you to pee more -> hassle in hospital bed
montaza hotel price includes breakfast buffet -> has watermelon, tomatoes, eggs, sausage, pastries, bread, orange juice, milk, plenty of calories but I'm not sure best way to fill in nutrients that this would not cover, any ideas?
first day after surgery, legs and butt touching bed hard to move, gets hot and itchy, asking them to turn on air conditioner to somewhat cool helps
first day at montaza -> check shower nozzle holder, hotel room phone, make sure work, a bit old, ask for help if doesn't work
economy supermarket nearby montaza hotel (size of 7-11 but with some produce) -> not so useful after surgery, b/c of walking distance
wolf/efood for misc groceries
Airport currency exchange = massive ripoff (lose about 25%), I think there is an ATM near montaza though, maybe get schwab debit card for ATM fee reimbursement
Have not had to use cash yet though
exoficcio black boxer briefs (forgot exact name) have been pretty good for this, light, loose, breathable, can reasonably be confused as shorts, but has useful hole for peeing
typing w/ google translate to Greek on laptop useful even for nurses who speak some limited English, its just easier for everyone for them to read greek, make the font big
biggest cost you might not have thought of? taxi. Its like 15 euros to go from montaza hotel to hospital one way
both uber and beat work, they just route you to taxis tho. And remember cost of taxi to physical therapy.
push button in uber/beat apps to share location = less headache
montaza hotel room table very small, so don't need to bring much on top of desk stuff
montaza hotel side bed table very very small but has second layer to put stuff in, don't bring too much
montaza hotel = get breakfast, help moving stuff, phone to call for help, don't have to fix things, has nurses sent there, toilet paper, desk ppl speak English, its easier for beginner travelers
to prevent bluetooth headset from disconnecting from inactivity on laptop/making annoying "disconnected sound" -> download a 24 hour long no sound black video, have it playing on laptop
hospital bed has nurse button (looks like woman in red)
def get whatsapp before trip
Anyone have any other tips or want to correct me on nething?
IV needle in my left hand, choppy sentences srry
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what else:
as of sept 2022, in athens mediterraneo hospital new entrance is down a ramp near garage
as of sept 2022, i went to floor A to find the right place
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Giotikas is pronounced "ya-tee-kahss"
nai (neh) means yes in greek. oh-hee means no.
will have IV needle in left hand early on, but the pain of it dulls over time
The road outside Montaza Hotel (one place where he sends nurses) is narrow. parked cars make it harder to see fast bikers driving by but you can hear them, prolly don't listen to music on road
peeing in hospital bed:
Dr giotkas has a full package ,post operation?I mean accomadation,eating,etc…how much it’s cost?
when lying in bed, angle penis down into bottle (awkward but better than the pee falling back at you)
first day after surgery need more effort/force to get pee out
When done: Pull penis out of pee bottle w/ a tissue, catches misc pee
asking hospital staff to empty pee bottle whenever they come is useful
good to poo before go to hospital + before see doctor if can (pooing in bed in hospital = nightmare, you just get a pail/pan/paper, don't think they have any other options until they teach you how to get to toilet)
recommend not drink the tea or coffee they give till they teach you how to go to toilet, hot liquids can trigger urge to poo
m1 macbook air/m2 macbook air = awesome for this, can lift one handed (useful w/ IV needle in one hand), long battery life, doesn't get hot. Lighter + brighter=better
sleep mask/earplugs seem to help, the hospital + hotel both near car noise
accidental clicks tend to happen when legs not straight or transferring in/out of bed or wheelchair
lip balm/chapstick, toothbrush, floss, cleaning wipes, earbuds, phone, laptop helpful to have in easy to reach backpack pocket during hospital stay, still ask for help reaching them tho
for shorts, prolly want them to be very very loose and way oversized (easier to get on/off+stretch) but have ability to tighten at top w/ drawstring to prevent it from falling down. don't put phone in loose pocket though.
hospital/hotel plain white greek yogurt very plain and almost cheese-tasting-> ask for jam/honey to add if want sweeter
look for a pack of salt w/ hospital meal, it is there somewhere, salt good w/ bread and olive oil (ask)
heavy hiccuping after surgery -> you can try drinking water, but might not help, but will cause you to pee more -> hassle in hospital bed
montaza hotel price includes breakfast buffet -> has watermelon, tomatoes, eggs, sausage, pastries, bread, orange juice, milk, plenty of calories but I'm not sure best way to fill in nutrients that this would not cover, any ideas?
first day after surgery, legs and butt touching bed hard to move, gets hot and itchy, asking them to turn on air conditioner to somewhat cool helps
first day at montaza -> check shower nozzle holder, hotel room phone, make sure work, a bit old, ask for help if doesn't work
economy supermarket nearby montaza hotel (size of 7-11 but with some produce) -> not so useful after surgery, b/c of walking distance
wolf/efood for misc groceries
Airport currency exchange = massive ripoff (lose about 25%), I think there is an ATM near montaza though, maybe get schwab debit card for ATM fee reimbursement
Have not had to use cash yet though
exoficcio black boxer briefs (forgot exact name) have been pretty good for this, light, loose, breathable, can reasonably be confused as shorts, but has useful hole for peeing
typing w/ google translate to Greek on laptop useful even for nurses who speak some limited English, its just easier for everyone for them to read greek, make the font big
biggest cost you might not have thought of? taxi. Its like 15 euros to go from montaza hotel to hospital one way
both uber and beat work, they just route you to taxis tho. And remember cost of taxi to physical therapy.
push button in uber/beat apps to share location = less headache
montaza hotel room table very small, so don't need to bring much on top of desk stuff
montaza hotel side bed table very very small but has second layer to put stuff in, don't bring too much
montaza hotel = get breakfast, help moving stuff, phone to call for help, don't have to fix things, has nurses sent there, toilet paper, desk ppl speak English, its easier for beginner travelers
to prevent bluetooth headset from disconnecting from inactivity on laptop/making annoying "disconnected sound" -> download a 24 hour long no sound black video, have it playing on laptop
hospital bed has nurse button (looks like woman in red)
def get whatsapp before trip
Anyone have any other tips or want to correct me on nething?
IV needle in my left hand, choppy sentences srry
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?
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front of thigh, sides of thigh, hip flexors very sore, making it difficult to do the stretches, wonder if the nurses will help me
biceps and frontal delts actually sore, probably from using them to hold my leg up for stretching + walker use + wheelchair use, not sure
lats slightly sore, prolly from walker use (effectively you are doing static dips)
wonder what food to order when get back to the hotel in a few days, prolly some veggies that are easy to prepare/eat. and also an ice cream bar.
there are clicks from the gnail device itself (a bit lower pitched but louder)
And there are what I perceive to be body clicks (from someone's actual knees or hip but not the device). appear to be quieter/higher pitched. fellow LLer at the hospital also commented on this
thinking about mordin solus from mass effect w/ this sentence structure
"I made him a steak! Focused on big picture. Too many variables"
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Hi SpeedDialer
Good good diary. Love the details. I can confirm pretty much most of the sensations you described.
Keep going and stay mentally strong.
And congrats on the surgery. Worst is behind you
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Hi SpeedDialer
Good good diary. Love the details. I can confirm pretty much most of the sensations you described.
Keep going and stay mentally strong.
And congrats on the surgery. Worst is behind you
Thanks!!!
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Getting on and off toilet still difficult, needed alot of help
There is a certain feeling of being anchored that is associated with being unable to get up and do some things by yourself
once I'm on a laptop, I feel mostly free/fast moving again, except for the IV left hand needle in me
in terms of pain, compared to LL, I actually thought getting a hair transplant (with numbing but no anesthesia, still awake) was more temporarily painful due to being awake during the hair transplant surgery (feeling as if being stabbed in forehead many times)
Feeling of clicking hard to describe. Not painful if muscles relaxed but feels like a deep, invasive, significant feeling which for some reason can cause the mind worry even though I know I came here to do this to click and grow taller
The moments before the click are scarier than the actual click. The stretching feeling/awkward leg positioning as you configure your legs/rotate your thighs and not knowing when the click will happen
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There is something I am very curious about
When I sit upright on bed and rotate my heels upwards/inwards slightly even just 1 cm, I get the sensation as if the bed has moveable parts that are rotating upward with the feet
However, when I touch my hand to that side of the bed I know that clearly the bed on its center line on that end doesn't have flaps rotating upwards and inwards. The special hospital bed can only bend and flatten w/ the mechanical parts under it but it doesn't rotate upwards and inwards into itself.
Which means that somehow the sensation I'm feeling must be due to my legs themselves post surgery
And maybe unrelated to that--- it is odd the first few nights that when I try to sleep, my brain appears to be interpreting the overall pain/soreness of my legs as movement/my legs being moved. And so in my dreams, my whole body and especially thighs sort of move in waves or undulate or move in ways that roughly correspond to the locations of the soreness
this mostly subsided after the first night
overall, it is interesting how the pain/sensation of the thighs is causing the brain to interpret movement/spatial movement differently despite me knowing logically that my legs are mostly still/only moving slightly
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More on the montaza hotel
(I'm not there now b/c in hospital, but will go back to hotel soon)
Sometimes at the foot of the bed, the teal colored stands that the bed lays on can stick out/not quite trip you but can hurt if bumped into it. Careful of knees/legs when walking around the foot of the bed. Prolly I will ask for help to push that in
The TV of the hotel (not hospital) is small and high on the wall in the corner of the room. Didn't see HDMI but maybe has VGA. Smallness and corner positioning of it mean you can basically ignore it/not use it/will prolly be much worse than just your laptop
Athens so far has had an interesting feeling. Lots of graffiti, older looking buildings, some machines in the hospital remind me the machines in the late 1990s or early 2000s that I saw in my dad's doctor's office when I was a kid. Sometimes feels like going into a time machine.
Blotches/bits of the city that look very clean and new, but most of the area I've seen around Montaza hotel evokes this feeling of buildings/pavement/concrete/outdoor stairs being heavily worn down by time, graffiti, often empty-ish feeling alleyways, yet still have some people going about their days and bringing a bit of life to it
The multiple strip clubs near montaza are a thing, though I've somehow been lucky to not have been bothered yet by their noise. Surprised to see one of them with pictures of anime girls on its front door despite the place probably having nothing anime-related inside. Plenty of smoking and ash trays around.
Sometimes see young women in the hotel who, based on how they are dressed, I surmised may be somehow associated with the multiple nearby strip clubs. Adds character and color to the experience
Montaza's rooms and spaces may seem small but the essentials are all crammed in there, it still works out. No microwave but there is something to heat water
But I also see some more touristy types from other places (an older lady from the USA (comforting to hear a familiar accent), some Spanish speakers in a group) at Montaza
I know people recommend laptop bed stands. But honestly w/ a very thin and light laptop like the macbook air I sort of prefer just having alot of little pillows around (I had to order and buy them tho) to rest the laptop on. softer, less trapping, easier to get off you
Dr. Giotikas looks to be about 6'2 tall
The two male and female nurses who work most closely with him appear to be about 6 feet and 5'7 respectively
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When I'm not sure how to move my body to get into a certain position, I've kept defaulting to putting both hands under one knee. I'm not quite sure the optimal way to move the legs/body yet to move in bed, but putting two hands under one knee -> gives a bit of control of where at least one leg will go. Wonder if the nurses have any advice on this
pushing with triceps into the bed to scooch over slowly also helpful
did not realize how helpless someone ends up without full use of their thigh muscles, like even in bed I feel alot more restricted in my movement. legs are just alot stronger than your arms ---and when you can't use the legs effectively, it just becomes alot more evident how reliant we are on legs even in situations you don't normally associate with legs (like being on a bed)
Sometimes I wonder 'damn, I wonder if this would be easier if I was only 130 pounds back in freshman year of college over 10 years ago' instead of more like 170 now
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Thanks so much for the tips! And good luck with your lengthening journey!
I have a couple of questions:
-Did you get given the option of Novotel also when booking for a hotel? I read in Ozboy's diary Dr G may be starting to offer this hotel to patients.
-Did you get a catheter for the surgery?
-Which weight-bearing nail did you get (e.g. the 95kg ones or another)?
-What is your starting height?
-What is your target height?
-How many days will you stay at the hospital?
-Did you stay at Montaza the day before the surgery too?
-Do you have any money saving tips?
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Thanks so much for the tips! And good luck with your lengthening journey!
I have a couple of questions:
-Did you get given the option of Novotel also when booking for a hotel? I read in Ozboy's diary Dr G may be starting to offer this hotel to patients.
I admit to being completely out of the loop. Ozboy wanna comment on this? I'm a bit in the dark on this
-Did you get a catheter for the surgery?
No. I heard that a male precise patient ended up using one though
-Which weight-bearing nail did you get (e.g. the 95kg ones or another)?
I apologize, I prolly should know this but I don't. Vaguely remember it might have been 13 mm gnail or something but I am aware this might not be answering your question
-What is your starting height?
I'll keep it a secret in case someone I know goes on this forum, but its less than 170 cm starting height
-What is your target height?
Target is 6-7 cm more than now
-How many days will you stay at the hospital?
3, and I think that is standard, ne1 know if its different for precise or different for tibias? I used gnail femurs
-Did you stay at Montaza the day before the surgery too?
I did just in case my flight got cancelled-- so I came very early and took a few days to scope out the area. I think technically, if you time things perfectly w/ the flight and meeting, it is possible to 1. arrive 2. go to the pre-operation appointment that same day day 3. spend one night in montaza 4. surgery 5. hospital 6. back to montaza
So if you trust your flight will be on time, its possible to only have 1 night at montaza before the surgery
-Do you have any money saving tips?
I apologize that my advice will be a bit bland and a bit too USA focused. Series i bonds if you're in the USA for certain. There are some other miscellaneous high yield savings accounts (DCU gives 6% on 1000 USD, Affinity credit union gives 3.5% on 5000, Current gives 4% on 3*2000=6000 USD), bask bank (rumor is if you connect certain bank accounts to it, it causes freezings/errors though) offering about 2.5% now, but admittedly their websites are a bit frustrating to sign up for (some old, some have weird hoops to jump through like current have to setup three 2000 USD pods). Prize Pool savings account might technically be worth looking into (lower APY than bask bank for many but gives randomly generated awards that sometimes offset this). The signups for all of these are frustrating enough that it may be better to spend that time working/studying but these are options. I admit to being too noob with stocks/crypto to venture into them.
testing if answers above went through
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-Do you have any money saving tips?
I forgot other misc savings accounts but I believe discover, chase, TD bank, maybe some others have some signup bonuses which, depending on your work, may not be worth your time. I believe that fidelity has a signup bonus w/ its cash management account and also an account geared towards young people called fidelity bloom, and with this last one I vaguely remember there is some way to get 5% on 300 USD (so 15 bucks a year) if you keep on putting 300 USD into fidelity bloom every year
I think wealthfront has a 2% checking account too
There are no-penalty CD's from savebetter or other companies that might be worth looking into but I would not be keen to use them since the fed will probably increase interest rates a bit more
Sadly, the thing all these have in common is that the APY is just very very low (except perhaps series i bonds) but its better I think than having money in crypto or stocks and then them crashing right before you are about to do LL
I'd avoid crypto lending based on the disasters of terra luna, celsius, voyager, etc. I forget if FTX even allows non-accredited investors to get 8% yield anymore
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Thanks so much! Your answers are very helpful ;D
How is your pain level now?
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Pain when not moving is close to 0 or 1 out of 10. But when do stretches its maybe 7 out of 10
Having difficulty getting good range of motion on stretches by myself, looking forward to doing them w/ nurses/physical therapists
transferring on/off beds and on/off toilet still very difficult, need help
keep getting accidental clicks when transfer on/off bed, gotta figure out better technique
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Do you have to count the accidental clicks to know how much you have accidentally lengthened?
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Do you have to count the accidental clicks to know how much you have accidentally lengthened?
I've been told to not worry about them for now, any LL veterans out there wanna point out anything?
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Something about the hospital beds- sometimes after some nurses do some work in the room, they will unfortunately move the object with the 'call for help' nurse button to a place hard for you to reach
What I've found is that to reach that nurse button, I set my bed to be flat, scooch back a bit, and then there was this white wire hanging down. I was able to just reach it and that white wire led me to the object with the 'call for a nurse' button
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I admit that despite doing LL in Athens now, I have not been very disciplined w/ making a budget and am curious what you guys would put as cost estimates for this
I'd haphazard a guess of 60k USD, but maybe that's a lowball estimate
The recent strength of the USD might help
I am not sure if montaza is actually more expensive than apartment if you add in all the variables- b/c it includes breakfast, toilet paper, help from the hotel staff, there's the elevator and lift for the wheelchair, you don't have to fix stuff, you don't have to think about utilities, it has some handicap rooms. You can go downstairs (or actually probably its better to just take some pictures of their menus, then call the front desk with your phone) and pay 12 euros later for a full meal if breakfast buffet wasn't enough. Anyone wanna chime in?
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I admit that despite doing LL in Athens now, I have not been very disciplined w/ making a budget and am curious what you guys would put as cost estimates for this
I'd haphazard a guess of 60k USD, but maybe that's a lowball estimate
The recent strength of the USD might help
I am not sure if montaza is actually more expensive than apartment if you add in all the variables- b/c it includes breakfast, toilet paper, help from the hotel staff, there's the elevator and lift for the wheelchair, you don't have to fix stuff, you don't have to think about utilities, it has some handicap rooms. You can go downstairs (or actually probably its better to just take some pictures of their menus, then call the front desk with your phone) and pay 12 euros later for a full meal if breakfast buffet wasn't enough. Anyone wanna chime in?
That's roughly how much I am estimating, but I would be interested in your breakdown of expenses once you start doing grocery shopping, trips to PT centre, etc.
Will you be staying in a handicap room?
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I'm staying in the handicap room for about 2 weeks
I'm still theory crafting the best way to transfer on/off of beds and taxi seats. Accidental clicks have been a big problem- its not that painful but its jarring/feels very wrong and stressful
Currently I think the main thing is you want to slide your butt (by using your triceps/lats to scooch over) and not want to bend legs first. If bend leg first then the legs get rotated relative to your body -> accidental click, feels a bit stressful when it happens
Unfortunately its often to hard to scooch to the right place and I'm still working out the best technique to transfer off of beds without causing an accidental click
I think maybe I will try leading with my butt but am not sure
Any veterans want to chime in?
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Had two accidental clicks when trying to transfer from bed to walker today.
The rotating of the legs/unstable feeling is a bit scary when using them to stand up (when transferring from bed to walker)
Once I'm standing up straight with the walker, its alot less scary because I know I can hop with the walker and get to the wheelchair if need be
The sink is very close to the toilet, which I think may make it awkward to transfer from walker to toilet and need to work that out
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The act of getting shorts on is a bit annoying, I think I might look into a button style shorts like these post surgery shorts https://www.amazon.com/Post-Surgery-Shorts-Womens-Unisex/dp/B00EDH6N16/ref=sr_1_11?crid=2VI36CLVJ5W42&keywords=handicap+shorts&qid=1663371128&sprefix=handi%2Caps%2C930&sr=8-11
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If I was going to do it again, I might get these post surgery shirt and shirts. Not really needed if your clothes are loose enough but probably easier:
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Post-Surgery-Shorts-Tearaway-Unisex/dp/B00EDH6NIY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=MT83ZQDMCPNU&keywords=post%2Bsurgery%2Babrei%C3%9Fbare%2Bshorts&qid=1663375412&sprefix=post%2Bsurgery%2Btearaway%2Bshorts%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1&th=1&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EDH5X9Y/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A36VPWXO1LYBY7&psc=1
Sadly amazon.de doesn't ship these specific items to Greece
the shirt is less helpful since once your IV needles are removed, its easy to put on/take off shirts
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The grabber tool-> the handle end of it is like almost as useful as the pincer end of it
The handle end is bigger/harder can be used to push/move objects a few feet away + push the slippers onto your fight after they are loosely put on
Can also be used to lift bags that are some distance away
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The handicap rooms of Montaza- I believe they have 3 beds, at least mine does. which is actually useful for just using two beds to put stuff on so you don't have to bend down to the ground
the TV in this handicap room is in a much nicer location relative to the bed, I might use it later if my legs get better and if has an HDMI port (I think it doesn't though, think it only has VGA)
the exercise bike I got looks daunting. Looks like an accident waiting to happen if I make an error when trying to dismount it, currently only planning on using it if a nurse is around
When I'm on my wheelchair with my grabber, I feel very free
Currently when I want to move the wheelchair but carry an object, I shove that object into my shirt which acts as makeshift net to hold the object in (wonder if there is a better less silly way?). I attached a small backpack to the wheelchair which should also help for smaller objects.
Getting on the bed is somewhat stressful, but putting some pillows on it to land on seems to help (less of a drop down)
If I can improve my technique for getting on the toilet, it will decrease my fears alot
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The side button shorts are a good idea - I'm going to get some I think.
Does the hospital provide you with the grabber tool and exercise bike in your hotel room or did you have to pay for that yourself?
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I had to buy the grabber, thank god it came the day I needed it
May be worth to buy a foldable one before you come just to ensure you have it
Today was rough, couldn't do a wheelchair -> walker transfer, several hours later a nurse came and saved me
Gonna take more painkillers to hopefully prevent this from happening again
The thighs swelling alot is painful on a wheelchair, the space is tight
It is hard to judge whether I need to take a tramadol pill in order to do wheelchair/bed transfers. I guess I could try to gauge the pain from stretches first to determine whether I want to take a tramadol pill that day
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I'd recommend having both the phone, the grabber, and the tramadol pills (says Tramal on the box, maybe the brand name) all within easy reach from both your wheelchair and the place you sleep.
Pain from attempting to stand up from the wheelchair made the transfer difficult/resulted in me being stranded on the wheelchair. So having both the phone to ask for help and a tramadol pills within reach at all times give you ways to deal with this.
In the mornings, I'm very stiff. Takes me a long time with small movements to be able to do the stretches and still takes me a long time to do the transfers (taking me multiple attempts)
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If all of your phone, tablet, and laptop all just use USB C charging cables and your cables are long, it is helpful. Then you don't have as many wires around, can just use one or two long USB C cables and it will work for everything which is convenient for the very small bed desk and other desk in the room. Hope the world just moves to USB C (and adds magsafe to it) so we can be done w/ cable mess
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Although not fashionable, a fanny pack is very useful. As are zippered pockets on your pants for sure. The nurses wear scrubs, which have very loose pockets and I've seen phones drop before
I could have brought a very loose and soft vest with zippers or buttons also which would have been useful when I had IV needles sticking out of my hands. But that is only for a few days, after which time putting on a loose shirt is very easy
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Psychologically, the first week has changed my mindset a bit. Before, it was like "I really wanna get to 7 cm on femurs" and now its like "man even if I had to stop at like 5 cm, I think I'd still be quite happy"
I wonder if this will change later as I recover more though and become less afraid
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Thanks for sharing your experience.
Out of curiosity - what's making you afraid?
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Psychologically, the first week has changed my mindset a bit. Before, it was like "I really wanna get to 7 cm on femurs" and now its like "man even if I had to stop at like 5 cm, I think I'd still be quite happy"
I wonder if this will change later as I recover more though and become less afraid
Man, take my words for it. It will change.
All patients the first 2 weeks get discouraged to the point that they start questioning whether they should even start the lengthening.
To me, the worst days were the first few at the hotel. Going off the heavy IV painkillers, starting the clicking and all the general pains you have, will f..K with your mind badly. Or at least they did with me and other patients I've met.
But as others before me already said, I can confirm you that after these first few days (or couple of weeks) everything becomes easier.
Plus you start seeing the gains in height wohich5is a massive mental booster. Just keep this in mind. All the shot that's going through your head is just a temporary chemical imbalance that's caused by the trauma you e gone through. It's just temporary.
Stay strong and find something interesting to pass the time.... Movie series, documentaries, whatever's turns your crank.
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Man, take my words for it. It will change.
All patients the first 2 weeks get discouraged to the point that they start questioning whether they should even start the lengthening.
To me, the worst days were the first few at the hotel. Going off the heavy IV painkillers, starting the clicking and all the general pains you have, will f..K with your mind badly. Or at least they did with me and other patients I've met.
But as others before me already said, I can confirm you that after these first few days (or couple of weeks) everything becomes easier.
Plus you start seeing the gains in height wohich5is a massive mental booster. Just keep this in mind. All the shot that's going through your head is just a temporary chemical imbalance that's caused by the trauma you e gone through. It's just temporary.
Stay strong and find something interesting to pass the time.... Movie series, documentaries, whatever's turns your crank.
Thanks!!!
Today was a bit rough, was practicing transferring onto the toilet with a nurse, got very dizzy/nauseous, puked into sink. Did not fall because the nurse was there to help. My current plan is to do more practice walker walking around the perimeter of the bed with a plastic bag and phone in case I fall (then can land on the bed) or need help or puke again
And still in the morning I'm finding the legs to be very stiff, trying to use pillows under them to help slightly stretch them first before doing the exercises
Quads and hip flexors being very sore also a problem, makes it difficult to do the stretches
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Thanks!!!
Today was a bit rough, was practicing transferring onto the toilet with a nurse, got very dizzy/nauseous, puked into sink. Did not fall because the nurse was there to help. My current plan is to do more practice walker walking around the perimeter of the bed with a plastic bag and phone in case I fall (then can land on the bed) or need help or puke again
And still in the morning I'm finding the legs to be very stiff, trying to use pillows under them to help slightly stretch them first before doing the exercises
Quads and hip flexors being very sore also a problem, makes it difficult to do the stretches
I feel for you man. Stay strong. This is it. This is the period. It'll be better by the end of this coming week and you'll already be 15mm taller.
Yeah use the help of the nurses as much as you need. They'll be happy to help you I'm sure.
Tomorrow PT will be helpful too. I'll see you there I guess. I'll be in at 12pm. What time do you go?
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Still thinking about the best ways to move in bed
If you are going backwards, then pushing w/ triceps to scooch back and slide helps
But what i've found for going forwards in the bed is you can basically also slide forward, which hurts less than raising your butt to move forward
If you clear the space in front of your feet, grip/grab the covers with your hands, and pull yourself forward, most likely your butt and body will just slide forward on top of the sheets and you won't have to raise your butt
Still having trouble rotating legs in bed though, has potential for accidental clicks. I'm somewhat under the impression that at some point need to rotate the butt otherwise the legs will be rotated with respect to the butt -> accidental clicks
Currently thinking if I leave the bed, I should always clip on my fanny pack with my phone in it- that way the worst case scenario even if I fall I'll have access to my phone to call for help
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I feel for you man. Stay strong. This is it. This is the period. It'll be better by the end of this coming week and you'll already be 15mm taller.
Yeah use the help of the nurses as much as you need. They'll be happy to help you I'm sure.
Tomorrow PT will be helpful too. I'll see you there I guess. I'll be in at 12pm. What time do you go?
I'll be there 1:30 PM, unsure how long are physical therapy sessions usually?
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Yeah I might still be there. Lately my sessions have become longer since starting to use the treadmill.
I'll see you there then
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still having problems w/ accidental clicks from transferring from one surface to another (ex: wheelchari to bed, taxi to wheelchair, bed to wheelchair). When accidental clicks happen during a transfer, it doesn't quite hurt as much as cause alot of stress/sudden feeling, sweating, feeling of lack of stability and fear of falling
The 'grab the bed at random places with both fists', pull, and slide forward completely straight when lying on the bed has helped alot in decreasing accidental clicks. In general keeping the legs straight helps alot but is sometimes a bit difficult to figure out how to keep the legs straight
But its harder when there are inherently angles in the situation (ex: transfer from wheelchair to bed, you can't just fall straight into the bed straight, you have to sort of park your wheelchair side by side with the bed)
One of my wound dressings has gone loose, has been oozing/bleeding, messaged the nurse on whatsapp, not sure if I should do anything else
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Very, very tight quads, confused, it wasn't like this the first day after surgery
trying to constantly stretch quads at least gently with pillow setup (sitting up, knee to chest, heel towards butt gently)
But quads so tight I can't bicycle in some setups due to range of motion issues, gotta find a solution
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At some point after coming to your location for LL, a nurse recommended I get an ice pack
The purpose is to help with the pain right after you finish clicking
I am not sure it would be good to use if you are about to stretch later though, maybe only use when finished for the day or just in alot of pain? not sure
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Especially right before a click happens, certain muscles will tense up
it is a bit easier once I could really feel which muscles were tensing up and then relax those specifically
there is sort of a twisting feeling associated with the leg right before the click and it feels as if you kinda let that twisting feeling happen in the tissue and not fight it w/ contractions
I sort of feel the contraction and then pause and think and try to relax those muscles that just contracted and then continue pushing forward for the click
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if I were to do it again, I'd get a slightly bigger fanny pack, there is not much downside to it, you can hold more stuff, don't have to worry about stuff falling out of your pocket, it doesn't really get in the way during physical therapy sessions provided its not like massive
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Generally want to put the pee bottle on flat surfaces, not the bed, because .. well you know
You can take the pee bottle from hospital to the hotel with you (ask)
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How do you normally resolve tightness in the muscles? Or do you just wait for it to pass?
Also, when you order things to the hotel (e.g. groceries), do the staff bring it up to you?
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How do you normally resolve tightness in the muscles? Or do you just wait for it to pass?
Also, when you order things to the hotel (e.g. groceries), do the staff bring it up to you?
I apologize, I am still trying to work out the first question tbh. Because I am early in the process, the muscle tightness isn't excruciating, but it is stopping me from doing cycling esp my left quad so I've just been stretching it gradually. I am lucky that any painful muscle spasms I've gotten so far are very small and brief. But I've only done a bit less than 1 cm
I apologize, I actually have not ordered groceries yet but am looking through the apps to do this. I feel pretty certain that if I ordered food, the hotel would call me with the phone that is in each room and then I'd ask them to bring it up to me. The reason I feel relatively certain they would do this is that they do bring up the hotel's breakfast to me when I ask
Any Montaza hotel LL veterans want to chime in?
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Thanks for sharing your experience.
Out of curiosity - what's making you afraid?
The first weeks of LL, you get a taste of what it would be like to not walk again and you get a taste of what things could be like if things go wrong
The helplessness, the pain, the tightness, the thighs feeling like they are 1000 pounds, the somewhat less than ways to deal w/ pee/poo when you can't physically walk to the bathroom yourself, a certain feeling instability on the legs even when I use a walker (its getting better though)
And its like "if my recovery doesn't go well, maybe the future will look something like this"
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So after thinking about it, I think you really want your shorts to be way softer, more elastic, and looser than you think you need. Probably the post surgery button tearaway shorts is optimal but if you can't get that then just a very very soft and very large and elastic pair of shorts would be good. I'd say don't even use their pockets for fear of something falling out (pretty easy for that to happen), just use a big fanny pack to store stuff you want to bring with you.
Really the only point of the shorts is so you don't have to show your privates to the physical therapists, you want the shorts to just get out of the way functionally and not cause any discomfort
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Making some progress on the clicking techniques, found a way to do it with just one pillow + using a strap to assist with the second (inward leg movement) click, should be able to do it on my own soon
I have found that because its so hard to turn to your side, you'll be sitting on your butt alot of the time, which is alot of heat and pressure
I've found a small handheld fan useful so I can tilt to one side and fan one butt cheek at a time to relieve at least the heat part of this
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Psychologically, the pain and frustration today (alot of which came from the difficulty of moving, feeling heavy thigh'd in bed, constant pressure on butt) caused these thoughts: "man I don't care about 7cm vs 5cm, I'd be happy to do just 5 cm just please let me walk again normally" and "I don't care about doing LL a second time, I'd be happy to just get 5 cm and be done with this"
I don't know if these thoughts will continue but I felt these thoughts more strongly today
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Unlike the first two days after surgery, the quads are just so tight and sore now that it make it difficult to stand up with the walker, alone I get maybe one out of 8 attempts at standing up from bed to walker, spaced out over an hour
If I can resolve this problem, I feel I can remove alot of the misery of the current experience, alot of which is from the constant unrelenting pressure on the butt from sitting down and a feeling of not being able to escape (very difficult to rotate to the side without causing some pain/weird feeling deep in thigh)
That and if I can accomplish some toilet transfer unassisted that will also go a long way in making me feel less trapped and more free
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Making some progress on the clicking techniques, found a way to do it with just one pillow + using a strap to assist with the second (inward leg movement) click, should be able to do it on my own soon
I have found that because its so hard to turn to your side, you'll be sitting on your butt alot of the time, which is alot of heat and pressure
I've found a small handheld fan useful so I can tilt to one side and fan one butt cheek at a time to relieve at least the heat part of this
Is the nurse still assisting you with clicking?
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Is the nurse still assisting you with clicking?
yes
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I think I might have found a way to make the experience alot less miserable
When I sleep, I am on top of the bed normally (on top of bed lying on my back, parallel to bed like the normal sleeping position) (because I am following the instructions I was given of having a suitcase under the feet end of the bed mattress in order to elevate the feet)
BUT, given that the feet end of the bed is slopped upward (due to the suitcase under it)..
I'm finding that after waking up, it is a bit better for me to be perpendicular to the bed more of the time when I want to frequently do stretches. Can more easily sit at edge of bed, hang legs off edge of bed to stretch quads, lay back with legs hanging off bed to stretch quads more, sit back up and use a nearby chair next to my desk table to help stretch my hamstrings, quickly be able to go from bed to walker to practice that transfer many times, decreases the amount of time I am just on my butt -> no longer constantly putting pressure on butt -> alot less miserable, feel less trapped
I feel morale increasing and feel more confident I can do this
The improvements I made with clicking last night also helped me increase morale
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Good to hear that man,
The first week at the hotel is the hardest. Next week you'll start feeling much better. Good job
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How long are you stretching for each day? I'm glad to hear your morale is increasing - I'm sure it will keep going up from here.
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How long are you stretching for each day? I'm glad to hear your morale is increasing - I'm sure it will keep going up from here.
I apologize, I should be more disciplined about knowing this but I find myself sort of doing light hamstring and quad stretches for like 20 minutes, then I take a nap, then later when I wake up a few hours, I do it again
I think maybe I should be stretching more but I haven't found my rhythm yet
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observations on clicking:
- lean your upper body in the same direction your arm is moving -> then gravity is on your side, you can just relax your whole body more and the weight of your arm on the leg will help to push it into the right position when clicking
- don't entirely stop when you tense up right before click (risk accidentally going backwards in position and then have to push more later, just prolongs the pain), I think keep applying light pressure but try to relax the muscles as you are still applying pressure
- I've found that one big pillow under the leg seems to work well for trapping the heel/keeping the heel still. A strap helps alot for helping to position the feet we are finding
Mediterranean food, including Greek food, seems to have alot of cheese, tomato sauce, and lemon to flavor food, its not quite my jam but I'm certain that eventually I'll find some food I like at the hotel
I guess I should be more disciplined about finding more foods to eat but it is somewhat easy to just eat the hotel breakfast and then a cheap ice cream bar from them later
Alot of omega 3 supplements and omega 3 containing foods like flax seed seem to interact w/ blood clotting so I've been too afraid to eat them for fear they will mess w/ the xarelto I'm taking
Eventually I should probably find some fish dishes to eat that don't have lemon, there's gotta be alot of options, its Athens, its near the sea
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I'd strongly recommend one thing:
do not immediately open taxi doors to exit taxis in Athens Greece
-> look left and right carefully through the window, lots of little bikers zipping around in these narrow streets, don't know when they'll show up and run into your suddenly opened door
in general, Athenes has lots of narrow roads with lots of parked cars obstructing the view
-> can just wait for the nurse (if he/she is with you) to open the taxi door at an appropriate time
For moving in the taxi, I'd suggest always sliding back first then sliding forward at gentle angles. Much easier than rotating your whole body 90 degrees immediately (bad, greater chance of accidental clicks)
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Thinking about how to do the IT band stretches and also the adductor stretches w/ strap without accidental clicks
I'm assuming if I just keep my leg very straight there should be no problems w/ accidental clicks? not sure
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Today was the best day yet, the walking, clicking, etc all went well
morale is high
the quad stretches during physical therapy are the most painful part of this at the moment
I'm also trying to figure out my stretching routine and try to identify mistakes
Mostly focused on quad, hip flexor, and hamstring stretches still
Which muscles are most related to duck ass? Hip flexors? What stretches do you like for them?
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Today was the best day yet, the walking, clicking, etc all went well
morale is high
the quad stretches during physical therapy are the most painful part of this at the moment
I'm also trying to figure out my stretching routine and try to identify mistakes
Mostly focused on quad, hip flexor, and hamstring stretches still
Which muscles are most related to duck ass? Hip flexors? What stretches do you like for them?
Congratz Speedy 👍🏼💪🏼
It must be glutes for duck ass 😂
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When you were in the hospital did you have a private room or were you sharing with someone?
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When you were in the hospital did you have a private room or were you sharing with someone?
private
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The burger meal for 6.50 euros at montaza hotel is pretty good, has good sauce, tomato, lettuce, and a big plate of fries, its decently filling and tasty for 6.5 euros
the cheese pizza is inexpensive but the time I had it didn't have much tomato sauce and was a bit hard so I think I might stick to burgers the times I want to get a full lunch/dinner for less than 7 euros
But most days, I don't really feel I need that much more to eat after the hotel's breakfast buffet
I haven't lengthened much, don't have any duck ass yet, but am a bit afraid of it after seeing a patient with duck ass. I don't think glutes are really the problem, maybe hip flexors more of the problem
So right now I'm working on some hip flexors stretches off the edge of the bed (butt on edge of bed, back lying down on bed, one leg hanging off, one leg tucked to knee)
During physical therapy, the biggest amount of pain is from quad stretches, followed by hamstrings, then hip flexors that the physical therapist does on me. If I can work on these stretches alot at home, I think I can improve my quality of life alot and have alot less pain each week
For clicking, I've found so far:
- closing my eyes, listening to relaxing music, lean the upper body in the direction the arm goes, try to get close to almost sleeping helps, use some pillows even for the upper body to get comfortable, just let the gravity of one arm arm push down on your knee do the work for the clicks and just go completely limp, I didn't have any pain today doing clicks this morning
Its not as time efficient as using both arms to simultaneously move the leg to click, I think ozboy39 and veterans do that and their method is alot faster though
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Glad to hear you're getting the hang of clicking (albeit slowly). How many days after surgery did you start clicking?
Also, re the food - have you only been eating hotel food this whole time? :o
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Glad to hear you're getting the hang of clicking (albeit slowly). How many days after surgery did you start clicking?
Also, re the food - have you only been eating hotel food this whole time? :o
The day after surgery, Dr. Giotikas walked to my bed, and did a few clicks on me and then in the days following, the nurses will do small number of clicks on you teaching you how to do them
I think maybe a few days later we started doing the 15 clicks per day in earnest
The hotel food has the free breakfast buffet + can pay for lunch or dinner. Depending on what you get, it is not expensive and there's enough variety. I've only eaten their hotel food, not sure if I'll branch out. Probably I'm going to keep trying their dishes. There is a small fridge in the room, its on the floor though, a bit hard to reach
Probably my biggest concern is the breakfast buffet only has tomatoes and cucumbers for vegetables. I'll probably see what other veggies they have in the lunch/dinner and then decide if I want to order some other vegetables by grocery delivery
Before the surgery when I could walk, I did eat some food from a local supermarket ("economy supermarket") that is about the size of a 7/11
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Has your appetite returned back to normal yet would you say?
Also, just curious if you chose to stay in the handicap room (with 1 guest) included, the double room, or double for single use?
Still tossing up my options as to what's realistic and best. Also considering Novotel if it ends up being cheaper when taking into consideration travel costs.
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Has your appetite returned back to normal yet would you say?
Also, just curious if you chose to stay in the handicap room (with 1 guest) included, the double room, or double for single use?
Still tossing up my options as to what's realistic and best. Also considering Novotel if it ends up being cheaper when taking into consideration travel costs.
Staying handicap room for two weeks then moving to the single use room w/ the big bed (forgot what its called). Hopefully I don't regret my decision, I still need to figure out best arm placement during toilet transfer and shower transfer in the non-handicap room, which won't have the useful handle on the wall. Gonna try to work out the best technique. I think without the handles on the wall, I'll basically have to push off of the toilet itself or off of the shower chair itself, not sure yet, gonna ask the nurses
Appetite is not normal still, I'm rarely hungry
I still end up eating plenty though-- it would appear that I eat more for recreation/pleasure than out of hunger
Do the nurses ever go to novotel? I am a bit out of the loop
I think it is possibly useful to have slippers that have some grip on the bottom of them, I'm a bit worried about the slippery floor during showering, still working out the best steps in terms of arm placement/order of actions to do it safely
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Staying handicap room for two weeks then moving to the single use room w/ the big bed (forgot what its called). Hopefully I don't regret my decision, I still need to figure out best arm placement during toilet transfer and shower transfer in the non-handicap room, which won't have the useful handle on the wall. Gonna try to work out the best technique. I think without the handles on the wall, I'll basically have to push off of the toilet itself or off of the shower chair itself, not sure yet, gonna ask the nurses
Appetite is not normal still, I'm rarely hungry
I still end up eating plenty though-- it would appear that I eat more for recreation/pleasure than out of hunger
Do the nurses ever go to novotel? I am a bit out of the loop
I think it is possibly useful to have slippers that have some grip on the bottom of them, I'm a bit worried about the slippery floor during showering, still working out the best steps in terms of arm placement/order of actions to do it safely
I think the room you're referring to is the double for single use room. I'll be following your diary very closely to determine whether it's suitable! ;D
I think they do go to Novotel now because it was one of the options provided.
I'm also waiting to see whether you guys are offered to use the new SUV to transport you to and from the PT centre.
Have you lost much weight since surgery?
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Somehow I totally forgot to ask them to weigh me when I went to the doctor today
I mean I can tell I'm thinner, but maybe by only like 5 pounds? And maybe alot of that is muscle lost
I talked to someone much thinner than me, and he is having a problem where his butt is much thinner than before so sitting on the hard seats outside Dr. Giotikas's office caused him pain. I'm considering bringing a small backpack with a small cushion in it the next time I go in case they don't want me to sit on a wheelchair (at some point they prefer you don't bring wheelchair and just use the crutches it would appear) just in case I have to sit on those hard seats. Evidently he waited like an hour for the appointment because things were really busy
However, I wonder if that will happen to me any time soon, I don't look fat, but I think I'm the heaviest patient here at the moment, I feel like my butt has plenty of fat still, I should still be like 170 pounds I think even after losing some weight
Some days clicking is hardly painful at all and somedays is like a deep pain inside, especially the first click leaves some pain that lingers for like 5 seconds and is maybe a 5 or 6 out of 10 pain. Its usually the evening clicks that are a problem for me so maybe I should do more warmup (pretend leg cycle in the air) + take the tramadol + 2 paracetamol before eating dinner instead of after, not sure
I think the dinner beforehand might be causing the tramadol to take longer to kick in before the evening clicks
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I think the room you're referring to is the double for single use room. I'll be following your diary very closely to determine whether it's suitable! ;D
One thing I'll say is that the table + the bed side tables are just very very small, a little bit hard to get work done on then
The TV is small enough to pretty much be not worth using, I guess unless you like random TV channels
I'll say that the first week and a half the legs were so swollen for me that it was painful to sit in a chair and I spent most of the time in bed
Handicap bathrooms have room to park your wheelchair right next to them to do a wheelchair->toilet transfer, which is super useful the first week when your legs are weaker
However, the double for single use room bathroom is so small that I don't think you can park the wheelchair side by side with the toilet and would need to transfer using the walker.
There's a small elevated barrier in the single for double room bathroom (not in the handicap room, where the floor is completely flat). This barrier prevents water from the shower from going to other parts of the bathroom. Cannot really get wheelchair into there I think, its a bit tight + that elevated barrier would probably stop the wheels. Also need to get into the shower by walker
Basically before I transfer rooms, I need to make sure I've mastered the walker -> toilet without a side metal rail handle + need to practice taking a shower without any side rails to help me. It should not be hard if I do the steps in the order they told me, but it is something I am slightly worried about screwing up when I'm tired one day
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I'm also waiting to see whether you guys are offered to use the new SUV to transport you to and from the PT centre.
Yeah I am also hopeful for this. The taxi costs are a bit cancer and there's not really a way around it
Today I went from hotel->physical therapy center -> hospital (for doctor's apointment)-> hotel
Three trips, it was like 20, 40, and 20 euros so like 80 euros total in one day
Thank god I split the cost with someone, which I think I was only able to do because I no longer need the wheelchair (I think the taxi can only fit one wheelchair? Actually not sure, probably can squeeze in a second one somehow in the trunk, it folds)
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Note to self: bring warm loose sweatpants if I ever do this again
Tearaway sweat pants might technically be better, not sure it matters too much after a certain level of recovery though
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are you there by yourself man ? be strong !! I was alone for 2 month before I went home .
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are you there by yourself man ? be strong !! I was alone for 2 month before I went home .
I'm by myself but am at the Montaza Hotel where the nurses go. Gonna be splitting taxi bills with a patient hopefully
Tonight, clicking was more painful and took longer than usual. Legs were a bit stiff and sore going into the clicking. Which makes me think if I did the bicycle a bit before clicking it would have been better. But I'm still afraid of the transfer to the bicycle, it doesn't look that stable. Wish they had given us an on the floor magnetic pedaler, woulda been safer I think (but it would be a tripping hazard, so idk)
Tempted to buy my own magnetic small pedaler on the floor but I'm hoping I can just do other exercises instead
I think one LLer suggested doing pedaling in the air, I didn't have much luck with that as a warmup before clicking
I think I need to remember that for days when I come to the hotel late (ex: when see the doctor on a Monday every two weeks) I need to remember I'll get back at like 7-8pm so I should probably take the tramadol first thing when I get back instead of eating dinner first. Hoping that will cause the tramadol to kick in faster than eating it after dinner so it will be ready by the time of clicking
Tonight's sleep ---the club music nearby wasn't so bad but my thighs left very stiff and it was uncomfortable for a while until I fell asleep
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How frequently do you have to go to the hospital for check ups? It seems to me that with all the taxi rides it may end up being cheaper/about the same from Novotel.
Thanks for the details about the non handicap room. Have you moved into it yet?
Hope you get some good sleep!
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Out of laziness, I might just answer the questions after they accumulate and then answer in one huge post
The exercise bike at physical therapy- I'd say don't try to adjust it on your own, the seat can slide easily
today it rained and I gotta remember to bring a light jacket just in case the phone gets wet
hospital check up once every two weeks I think? ne1 wanna correct me?
haven't moved into non-handicap room yet but I've seen one before and the smallness means that the exercise bike will be a problem, not much space for it
Not sure about the novotel cost, but I've heard these rumors: I think its 86 Euros per night through some kind of deal the doctor arranged, a bit nicer, bigger, has an exercise bike that is easier to get onto in their gym and closer to the physical therapy center. And has a pool but evidently has some steps that are a big problematic to go up. The thing is, I think the nurses only go to it when someone specifically needs help, anyone wanna correct me if I'm wrong? Also not sure if their arranged transportation coming up will go to Novotel or not (it should though if its so close to PT..)
Montaza I can't remember I think its like 55 Euros per night at the non handicap room and like 60 for the handicap room? Anyone know?
But if you save like 13 Euros four times per week lemme think
err ok comparing montaza hotel handicap room 61 ish euros per night
I remember there is tax, not sure if it was 1 euro or 1.5 so I just picked some very very rough numbers
61*7 = 427 euros per week at montaza handicap room
56*7 = 392 euros per week (???) something might be wrong with my calculation or setup
Novotel 86*7=602 euros but then subtract out 4*13 euros for money saved on shorter taxi trip
602 - 4*13 = 550 euros per week
Is my math right? I'm getting novotel is a bit more than 120 USD per week more expensive than the other options, am I mistaken?
The other x factor is the noise at Montaza is worse because of the strip clubs nearby
I'm also considering novotel if I go for internal tibias in a year or so, anyone have any other info to share about novotel and your thoughts? Not sure how the prices compare though and if novotel charges more for handicap room or not, anyone know?
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So now even though my legs don't feel like 1000 pounds, they are just constantly a bit sore (a bit like DOMS) which is making clicking painful and harder and take longer
The quad stretches at physical therapy (where they stretch your legs using their arms/body weight while you lie down) are probably the most excruciating part of this journey, maybe 8 out 10 pain. I really did not expect this, but I wonder if sitting down alot on a bed during the pandemic made this worse than it would have been otherwise, not sure.
At least quads are one of the easiest muscles to self stretch when you're sitting down/on your back
Second behind that is the hamstring stretches which are maybe like 7 out of 10 pain at physical therapy
And then hip flexor stretches are maybe like 5-6 pain max
Oddly enough, IT band and adductor stretches never seem to hurt, but I wonder if that will change after I lengthen more
I think the issue is that like for adductors and hamstrings at some point when they apply more and more force, it moves your whole body instead of stretching more (though they can counteract thi by holding body down). For quads, this doesn't really happen, their body weight just easily overpowers just the flexion at the knee and they can stretch quads quite alot
I did get an IT band release I think (?) so maybe that is why IT band stretches never hurt (?)
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I think they do go to Novotel now because it was one of the options provided.
Will the hospital arranged transport go to Novotel? I would think it would have to given how close Novotel is to the PT center but I don't know
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I'm under the impression that Dr. Giotikas is very busy, has alot of patients, and he is probably bombarded by questions all the time by email and whatsapp
It feels like he and his team are trying to manage alot of patients, I think three new ones are coming very soon and it should be fun to meet them
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So currently I am toying with this idea to make evening and morning clicks easier:
- Maybe I will take the tramadol and two paracetamol before breakfast (I am not sure, but I think they take longer to kick in if you eat them after a big breakfast, anyone know?)
- then after the painkillers kick in, do the clicks
- then I go to physical therapy
- then I get back to the hotel and take another tramadol and two paracetamols before dinner (for the same reasoning as the above in ())
- then I eat dinner and possibly take a nap from exhaustion
- then legs will be stiff after a nap, need to warm them up + stretch them and maybe take another two paracetamol after, not sure
- then do the second set of clicks after the last two paracetamol kick in
Not sure if I should try this or if this is a good idea or not, just toying with ideas, I don't know if this is the optimal plan, if this is bad idea, or if there are much better plans
We can take up to 6 paracetmol pills and 2 tramadol pills they said, I just don't know the optimal timing of when to take them given that we need to do clicks, stretching, and physical therapy at various times
in terms of pain, the physical therapy is probably the most painful part. However, I've noticed the clicks sometimes can be relatively painless after some tramadol
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How frequently do you have to go to the hospital for check ups? It seems to me that with all the taxi rides it may end up being cheaper/about the same from Novotel.
Thanks for the details about the non handicap room. Have you moved into it yet?
Hope you get some good sleep!
once every two weeks for checkups
taxi rides I'm not sure--- we go to physical therapy like 4 times a week and you save about 13 euros per ride. Oh wait my math was definitely wrong before, so like I forgot to take into account the ride back.
So actually someone will save like 13*4*2 = 104 euros ish per week I think?
So actually the effective cost of montaza vs novotel might be alot closer than people realize
I'm not sure how this will change once the prearranged transportation kicks in though
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How much are you currently spending on food each week?
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How much are you currently spending on food each week?
Oh hm.. maybe like 55 euros per week ish?
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What do you guys think about novotel vs montaza for internal tibia?
It seems like the nurses will always come to help new patients for at least a week
I just don't have a sense for how easy/hard the transfers are for internal tibia to do on your own
For internal femur, I had difficulty with bed -> walker transfers for maybe like 10 days
So I think maybe the question I need to find out is how hard are the various transfers (bed-> walker, walker-> toilet, etc) are for internal tibias and at what point it is easy to do without a nurse coming to help
I haven't met anyone who is doing only internal tibia yet- only people who are doing both. Well I think I met one guy ?matteo? not sure briefly who was about to leave and I didn't ask him before he left Greece
Anyone who is doing internal tibia only have any thoughts on how long it took to be able to do the transfers reliably on their own?
I think maybe the other thing I need to figure out is how long novotel patients get nurse support before they have to only get it by request
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It seems like there is the option for internal tibia to stay in Montaza's handicap room for X weeks and then move to Novotel (like the girl did) and in my mind the main benefit is escaping the strip club noise and perhaps there is less car street noise at Novotel, not sure. That and maybe the transport costs would be less + get better (but more expensive) food selection at the hotel
But I think she did internal femur so it is not certain it would be the same for internal tibia
I mean it feels like the transfers for internal tibia should be easier than for internal femur, I just wonder how those maybe first two week are for internal tibia patients?
There will be three more patients coming, so maybe hopefully one of them is doing internal tibia and I can ask them
I emailed Novotel and don't completely understand what they are saying:
"The door is accessible also for people using wheelchair and vase basin has specific seize according to the Int. standards for wheelchair accessible rooms
Furthermore the bath floor is flat.
The main room has one double bed and a chair and has space for the people using the wheelchair.
The room rate is available for up to 2 people for superior rooms of 1 double bed.
"
But from the above I think they are saying that even their basic room type "superior" they call it might be OK for wheelchair users
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I'm noticing that when I have pain in the middle of my thighs before sleeping, sometimes I continue to feel that pain in my dreams
And in my dreams when I have that pain, I am often more disabled than I am in real life, feeling extra heavy, pain in the middle of the thighs (? at the gap where there is no bone? not sure?) and oddly enough have some kind of speech impairment in the dreams often too that feels associated with the rest of the pain
I do not know if I ever have had an accidental click while sleeping but I did feel a sort of knock or hitting feeling once, though I somehow doubt that was a device click, maybe a body click instead
I am hoping that when I go back down to 15 clicks instead of 21 per day that the evening stiffness/pain after clicking will go away
I will likely stay in Athens more than 3 months actually so I wonder if I will have the option to reduce my clicks to something lower than normal to spread things out-- Or if this is a bad idea and will cause premature consolidation?
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Today I actually had more pain during hamstring stretches than quad stretches, I feel like a nerve or something was in a bit of pain after the hamstring stretches, felt like a long thin string of pain from the underside of my thigh down to the underside of my calf
hamstring stretches are a bit more of a hassle to stretch than quad stretches, maybe I should have the band always at hand to be able to begin hamstring stretches more easily and do them more frequently
IT band stretches and adductor stretches never seem to be that bad -> and I think it may be because at some point, the fat of my thighs blocks the physical therapist from moving the IT band stretch beyond a certain point. And also when he tries to stretch my adductors beyond a certain point, it just moves/rotates my whole body, which also puts a limit on how much they can be stretched
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Back in the non-handicap room
I'll say a few things:
- it is totally possible to be in a non-handicap Montaza room after 3 weeks if you have gnail at least
- like alot of pieces of technology in general, the card keys at montaza have occasional certain issues of randomly stopping working, make sure you bring your phone and/or ID with you if you leave your room early on just in case (won't matter later when the front desk people recognize you though)
- The wheelchair will not fit into the bathroom door opening in the non handicap room -> that is actually OK for gnail and I wonder if its OK for some other nails too
- you can buy a toilet seat raiser from the guys who deliver the exercise bike (just ask them on whatsapp) for like 45 euros, it didn't really help me in the handicap room (where you can transfer from your wheelchair) but it is helping me now transfer from walker to toilet
- Technically it should be possible in theory to unplug the TV and use that outlet to charge devices on your desk, not sure, the other outlets are a bit far
- recommend getting a towel early and using it to hep you transfer from bed to wheelchair. Wheels/metal can chaffe your butt
- the non-handicap room will feel very small after you have lived in the handicap room, but honestly that's not a bad thing because if you ever fell down, you probably would rarely hit the floor, you'd probably actually just bump into the wall or fall onto the bed because of how tight the space is
- wonder if it would be worth getting some kind of foldable desk to increase desk space a little? small desk. But space is extremely tight as it is
- feeling lazy and I don't feel like slipping in the shower, why add that risk for so little reward? Can use cleaning wipes, I have alot. Can't get my wheelchair to the sink anymore (bathroom too narrow) to wash my hair though. I think maybe I'll just put a tiny tiny bit shampoo in my hair before going to the bathroom, walk in with the walker, put a bit of water on, go back to the wheelchair outside the bathroom, wipe it down with a towel, not sure if there are better ways?
then again, the walls are so narrow in the bathroom and shower that even if I did slip, I'd basically not fall down onto the floor-> I'd just bump into a wall and there would probably be no problem
I think it might be helpful to always have a chair at the edge of the bed and always have a walker at the edge of the bed. To be able to frequently use them for stretching and practicing transfers. With the big bed in the standard room, there's plenty of perimeter around the bed
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I think the room you're referring to is the double for single use room. I'll be following your diary very closely to determine whether it's suitable! ;D
I think they do go to Novotel now because it was one of the options provided.
I'm also waiting to see whether you guys are offered to use the new SUV to transport you to and from the PT centre.
Have you lost much weight since surgery?
What are your current thoughts of about montaza vs novotel? Thinking of doing internal tibias some day, not sure which would be better
If the nurse frequency at montaza is still higher, I'm tempted to do like 3 weeks handicap room at Montaza then the remaining time at Novotel (bigger desk space, probably less noise, save money/time on the commute, much more beautiful and large). I think one internal precise femur patient did something like this. But I'm not sure that is actually a good idea for internal tibias, I don't know how hard/easy the transfers are (wheelchair/bed, wheelchair/toilet etc)
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I think I have seen various nurses (including those not specifically associated with LL) drop their phones out of their medical scrub pockets like 5 times in three weeks
I don't know how the hospital thinks those thin hospital scrub pockets can hold smartphones given how often nurses have to bend down slightly to do something or help someone. Maybe they should just let them all have fanny packs or something
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Right now hamstring stretches during physical therapy are giving me the most pain right now, like 7 out of 10 pain. Quad stretches during physical therapy giving sometimes similar pain but sometimes a bit less
I actually think though that in the non handicap room, the walls are so close to the bed on both sides maybe I can use the walls to help me stretch hamstrings frequently to deal with this
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Clicking tends to be hard when the thighs are already sore- sounds obvious I know but I mean it
I prefer doing the clicking alone without the nurses now -> because I can take my time and do multiple attempts to do a click and I don't feel any guilt/judgement when I yell or groan in pain
It is usually like the first 2 ish clicks that are potentially painful but after that, they tend to get easier
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What are your current thoughts of about montaza vs novotel? Thinking of doing internal tibias some day, not sure which would be better
If the nurse frequency at montaza is still higher, I'm tempted to do like 3 weeks handicap room at Montaza then the remaining time at Novotel (bigger desk space, probably less noise, save money/time on the commute, much more beautiful and large). I think one internal precise femur patient did something like this. But I'm not sure that is actually a good idea for internal tibias, I don't know how hard/easy the transfers are (wheelchair/bed, wheelchair/toilet etc)
The prices for a room at each hotel change slightly depending on the time of year. But using today's prices I have worked out an approximation:
Montaza
Handicap room (30 days) = 1800 euro
Double for single use (60 days) = 3600 euro
Hotel Tax (1.50 euro per night for 90 days) = 135 euro
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 20 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 1920 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
10% discount for stays longer than 2 weeks = Deduct 540 euro
Total: 6915 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
Novotel
Handicap room single occupancy (Oct (86 euro per night); 30 days) = 2580 euro
Handicap room single occupancy (Nov to Mar (72 euro per night); 60 days) = 4320 euro
*Prices for superior room with double bed and double sofa bed for single use are the same as the handicap room*
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 8 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 768 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
Total: 7668 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
I am not sure if breakfast is included with the Novotel prices above - I'm waiting for Evi to get back to me.
Seems Montaza still comes out cheaper overall, but you may need to factor in other costs like the food menu, trips to hospital, etc. Also, keep in mind they are introducing the new SUV service so the price from each hotel to the PT centre may reduce drastically.
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Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
I remember that physical therapy center -> doctor's office was like 40 euros and I was miffed (my appointment was after physical therapy, we did take a slight detour to drop off a nurse at Montaza though), but thankfully that only happens once every two weeks.
I have to check my app's history but I have think that it is something like this:
So if I do some very crude estimates, I'm getting like 4*2*20+40/2 = 180 euros as a very rough ballpark per week of taxi fare, but I'm probably forgetting something and it might be a bit more or less. I think leaving montaza early is a potential strategy depending on the time of your physical therapy to avoid some traffic, not sure when traffic is the worst
(divide by 2 because see doctor only once every two weeks
Occasionally though you get lucky w/ traffic or w/e and sometimes the taxi is only 17 or 16 euros to physical therapy from montaza
But remember this isn't quite accurate b/c need two hotel -> hospital trips before the surgery so maybe its like 40-50 euros more at the start
However, hopefully commute prices will go down a bit once they arrange the SUV transport or w/e Evi was saying. However, if she said that its prices depends on the distances, then the distance montaza is from the physical therapy center will still matter a bit probably
Sorry I couldn't be of more help, I just have some rough estimates
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The prices for a room at each hotel change slightly depending on the time of year. But using today's prices I have worked out an approximation:
Montaza
Handicap room (30 days) = 1800 euro
Double for single use (60 days) = 3600 euro
Hotel Tax (1.50 euro per night for 90 days) = 135 euro
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 20 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 1920 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
10% discount for stays longer than 2 weeks = Deduct 540 euro
Total: 6915 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
Novotel
Handicap room single occupancy (Oct (86 euro per night); 30 days) = 2580 euro
Handicap room single occupancy (Nov to Mar (72 euro per night); 60 days) = 4320 euro
*Prices for superior room with double bed and double sofa bed for single use are the same as the handicap room*
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 8 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 768 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
Total: 7668 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
I am not sure if breakfast is included with the Novotel prices above - I'm waiting for Evi to get back to me.
Seems Montaza still comes out cheaper overall, but you may need to factor in other costs like the food menu, trips to hospital, etc. Also, keep in mind they are introducing the new SUV service so the price from each hotel to the PT centre may reduce drastically.
I think this is a good analysis. The SUV service might throw off the commute cost calculations, but I gave my best rough estimate in a post just above for the current situation for taxis and montaza.
I think that breakfast comes w/ novotel is my vague memory from ozboy's diary, and I'm under the impression that novotel has a better selection of fruits for breakfast than montaza
Right now, I am in a room in Montaza by luck that seems to be farther from the strip club noise though I still hear the busy road noise (which is usually not that bad just consistent low noise, except when the loud bikers drive by)
Montaza's lunch/dinner seems to have less selection than Novotel but be a bit cheaper by a few euros
I keep going for Montaza's burger meal b/c its only like 6.50 euros but eventually probably I'll get sick of it after too many times
I still think the better desk space at Novotel is good for people who want to game or get work done + the overall nicer atmosphere and space + the easier to mount bicycle in their gym is probably nice. But probably the best thing about novotel is just to avoid the dice roll of whether you end up close to the strip club noise at Montaza/being woken up in the middle of the night. I'll ask Evi later about how frequently the nurses go to Novotel in the first three weeks or so, I'm a bit worried about that the frequency of coming might drop off alot after the first week, though I'm not sure how much it matters for internal tibia patients (whether it matters alot or not much, I don't have a sense of how independent internal tibia patients can become after 1 week)
I'm doing gnail femurs now
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The prices for a room at each hotel change slightly depending on the time of year. But using today's prices I have worked out an approximation:
Montaza
Handicap room (30 days) = 1800 euro
Double for single use (60 days) = 3600 euro
Hotel Tax (1.50 euro per night for 90 days) = 135 euro
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 20 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 1920 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
10% discount for stays longer than 2 weeks = Deduct 540 euro
Total: 6915 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
Novotel
Handicap room single occupancy (Oct (86 euro per night); 30 days) = 2580 euro
Handicap room single occupancy (Nov to Mar (72 euro per night); 60 days) = 4320 euro
*Prices for superior room with double bed and double sofa bed for single use are the same as the handicap room*
Taxi to PT (4 times per week - 8 euro each way(?) for 12 weeks) = 768 euro
Taxi to Hospital (once per fortnight?) = unsure (please clarify for me)
Total: 7668 euro (excluding taxi to hospital costs)
I am not sure if breakfast is included with the Novotel prices above - I'm waiting for Evi to get back to me.
Seems Montaza still comes out cheaper overall, but you may need to factor in other costs like the food menu, trips to hospital, etc. Also, keep in mind they are introducing the new SUV service so the price from each hotel to the PT centre may reduce drastically.
My instinct is that probably you will be alot happier at Novotel, like I'm under the impression Novotel feels like a full, nice hotel and is part of a big chain owned by a bigger French hotel company (accor) + ozboy said it did not have noise problems. Montaza is fine, but it is sort of like them trying to cram all the basics into confined spaces. An exception to that is the montaza handicap room, which has plenty of space because it has three beds. My former handicap room was close to the strip club night noise, which consistently woke me up in the middle of the night, and I'm pretty glad that my current non-handicap room is farther from that noise. My current non-handicap room feels a bit like a college dorm room, everything is crammed and small but all of the essentials are there and I can't complain given the great price I paid. I feel like I can use the non-handicap room in Montaza easily and enjoy its cheaper price because I have gnai--l so it is OK that my wheelchair cannot even get into the bathroom in this tight space
But I sort of think that if I was doing any other method (precise, externals, etc) I would really prefer a handicap room (either montaza handicap room or novotel) with more space and be able to roll the wheelchair into the bathroom if need be
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Ah sorry I misread your post, you were asking about the SUV prices not the current taxi prices my b -- I'm also in the dark atm and am just waiting to find out
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A note to people thinking of doing externals:
unfortunately, there appears to be a bit of a dice roll that goes like this:
- people do externals to avoid drilling the kneecap (and they get external pin scars as the price)
- some people doing externals can handle the pin site pain and can go the full distance with just externals
- But some people (don't know the percentage) cannot tolerate the pin site pain and other things and end up switching to LATN (? wrong name? anyone know?) or internals midway-> ? so I think maybe they just end up drilling the knee cap anyway -> end up with both pin site scars + a drilled in kneecap anyway? Am I misunderstanding? Then you end up with the worst of both worlds, or I missing something?
but when you start, its not clear whether a given person can tolerate externals only the whole duration, so that is what I mean by a diceroll, I don't see how you can predict your response to the pin site pain before starting
Just something to keep in mind, I wonder if anyone has any statistics on this to know the likeliehood of this happening?
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Last night I slept the entire night without being woken up by the nearby strip club noise and I didn't hear it at all. I consider myself lucky. Had some great dreams, didn't have pain in my legs during my dreams, which sometimes happens and causes the dreams to become more nightmarish. I hate being disabled in my dreams
I setup my laptop/keyboard on the small desk at montaza and will try it out for gaming and productivity later
legs still just constantly a bit sore everyday, makes clicking harder than before
At some point my clicking was virtually no pain, but it has gone back to being a bit stressful
Although clicking can be stressful, it is probably worth it so far w/ gnail. I mean plenty of times I go to the bathroom, if I have to pick up an object, I temporarily will only be supported by my two legs and one arm on the walker. Is it a problem? I don't think so b/c its weight bearing, I still feel safe.
Probably right now I hate the time damaged/slanted pavement near montaza and the physical therapy center. Look down when you walk, don't be afraid to take a step back to safety if the walker seems wobbly on unstable/not level ground
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So maybe people who haven't come yet might be wondering the nurses we keep talking about sometimes by name
There are two nurses who work very closely with Dr. Giotikas, they often come to visit the newer patients especially to help them take are of themselves and teach them how to become independent
When new patients come, they shift their attention alot to the new patients so it is really important to try to become independent as soon as you can -> practice the bed to walker transfer, its safe, worst thing happens is you fall on the bed. One time a nurse had to deal w/ an emergency or something w/ a new patient so myself + another patient had to scramble at the last moment to get to the taxi ourselves with just the hotel staff aid, which turned out to be OK. Just be ready for that after like 1-2 weeks to rely more on yourself + the hotel staff
I do think that the bed -> wheelchair and then wheelchair -> toilet transfers are much much easier than walker transfers for going to the bathroom---but not ideal in the long term (better to practice walking with walker if you are able to). If you are using the wheelchair to transfer to the toilet, it might be easier to remove the toilet seat raiser device if you bought one since it is hard to go from a lower wheelchair elevation to a higher extra raised toilet seat. But if you are on a walker, then an extra raised toilet seat is awesome
There is a male nurse. On very rare occasions he smokes outside when we're outside waiting for a taxi, but its not a problem at all, just move the wheelchair a bit away if the smoke is an issue. He's strong, and has helped me move my stuff lots of times, I appreciate it, I apologize for not planning better and I apologize for bringing too much heavy stuff.
There's also the female nurse who is temporarily seemingly working alot double time and covering for both the administrative assistant (Dora) + doing her normal duties as a nurse. She knows alot of languages (English, Greek, Spanish at least) , puts people at ease, and I can see why Dr. Giotikas hired her
To my ears, Greek when spoken with a deep voice sounds calmly badass/manly. And when in a higher pitched voice, Greek can have a certain crack/pop sounds to it w/ the consonants (ex: parakalo). People are nice and its a good experience, but on the phone I would simplify your English and words (just focus on the main noun and main verb, don't add too many connecting words or you'll just end up confusing someone)
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If a Greek person tells you to put "spirit" on a cut (not related to leg lengthening), I think they mean "alcohol"? Maybe the Greek word for alcohol can translate into alcohol or spirits?
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Warning: the entrance to the shower section of the bathroom in the non-handicap Montaza room is too narrow to fit in a walker. Tried putting the shower chair straddling the shower section and outside but I couldn't sit on it stably from a walker.
My current solution is to just sit on the toilet and use the hand wash faucet's water to wash my hair by reaching my arms over, but I wonder if there are better solutions?
Any better ideas?
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Are you allowed to shower without a walker yet? I probably would stay in the handicap room until then...I guess it would be too slippery to use crutches in the shower
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Are you allowed to shower without a walker yet? I probably would stay in the handicap room until then...I guess it would be too slippery to use crutches in the shower
I am only allowed to shower using the walker, and the nurse was trying to help me work out the optimal way to enter and exit the shower in the non-handicap room. However, because the entrance of the shower portion of the bathroom is too narrow for the walker, that is one problem. Another problem is that once inside the shower portion, there is not enough space to actually turn/rotate the walker. In fact it feels like the walker cannot fully expand (by maybe about a cm or so) once inside the shower if you are facing the nozzle. And then finally when you try to exit the shower, its, like before when you tried to enter, still not wide enough to pull it out without folding the walker.
I don't think I will be able to shower without a walker for a long time given that I can't walk unassisted. I think you're right that the crutches would be dangerous inside the shower
I use gnail, I think it should most likely be OK to do the walker folds while standing up but I am going to double check with the nurse later the safest way to do this. I don't feel safe doing this on my own without a nurse for now, need some practice to do this logically
This all makes me wonder if I would even be willing to do the above if I had precise given my heavy weight of 170 pounds and the fact that precise is not weight bearing and I don't think it can support 170 pounds
I am pretty thankful I am using gnail, but I also wish I had been more successful in trying to lose weight, this whole thing would be way easier at my freshman year weight of 130 pounds
I think if you either use a montaza handicap room or use novotel, you can just avoid all the above problems. My instinct is that most people would be happier at novotel, not sure. I think that novotel has more space in the bathroom, not 100% sure but based on the pictures it appears to have more space
the montaza handicap room also has alot of space
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I know it's still early days as you are lengthening but I'm surprised it's much of an issue if you are using the nails that support 95kgs per leg
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shrug
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notes for me next time:
- when get in taxi, duck head extra low/bend over even more forward to avoid head bump into taxi
- maybe try out the greek salad w/o the cheese
- gonna try just constantly having two very small pillows under one tibia in bed so I can start stretching that leg's hamstring whenever I went (just by leaning forward slightly)
- put towel under elbow when use computer at desk
- what are the most common messages to put into google translate to turn to Greek to show someone? "please wait for my friend before you drive the taxi"
- figure out two sets of clothes to rotate for which are being cleaned and which are ready to be worn
- might as well ask for cold water when go to physical therapy center
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At some point are you thinking of doing internal tibias in Athens?
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The walker/wheelchair use seems to be affecting my dreams. I had a dream where arm movements, especially tricep movements, cause me to float / fly in the air
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A nurse helped me to attempt to walk without the walker one time up a very very small set of stairs up to the hotel (he held one of my arms and I used my other arm on a wall)
Its odd, like my legs felt a bit unstable/wobbly but I had the strength to do it in the quads/etc
I can't wait to use the antigravity treadmill at physical therapy (basically uses pressure/inflatable pads or something around your waist to hold your upper body up) and then you can walk on the treadmill as your upper body sort of floats above
I still haven't encountered the "flat ass" syndrome LLers have warned me about, and maybe with my body fat amounts I'll never bump into it ---but I still might experiment with bringing a little cushion to the hospital to use to sit on those hard chairs outside the doctor's office
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I've still been lazy and haven't done any grocery delivery yet. I wonder what would be most useful to get if I ever did?
Er lets see
Fruits that I can't get from the breakfast buffet. Maybe bananas are the easiest since I don't have any kitchen stuff.
Uh what else
Probably soda tbh. I can buy soda from the hotel but its like 3 euros for a small bottle.
An omega 3 fat source? But I keep reading that omega 3 supplements and some high omega 3 foods like flax seeds may mess with something related to blood, I think Dr. Giotikas told me not to get krill oil
I probably should pick some fish dish at the hotel to try at some point
If I did grocery delivery, I would probably want to get alot of stuff that can last a long time so I can just do one big delivery and use it over the course of several weeks. I could fill the hotel cooler with soda I guess.
alright alot of soda
maybe some bananas
what else
I don't see the value of getting protein powder or anything like that, I can just force myself to eat more eggs in the morning it seems, no?
Maybe I should eat less chocolate cake during breakfast, but its the best tasting food they have for breakfast at the hotel
The green apples seem to last a bit longer than the red apples from the hotel (don't seem that fresh), or maybe its just the sour taste masking the mild aging
The nutrition I'm missing from my diet seems to be vegetables, omega 3 fats, and I could probably be eating more protein. I still think I don't feel that motivated to get grocery delivery, I could just try out the greek salad dish later, try out a fish dish later, and force myself to eat more eggs in the morning instead of chocolate cake
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Toying with this idea for stretching hamstrings in a way that doesn't require any arm strength w/ the strap
1. Put wheelchair at edge of bed, but not facing the bed (90 degrees)
2. lock the wheelchair
3. scoot up towards it
4. put leg on the soft wheelchair arm rail that is closer to you
5. bend upper body forward slightly -> hamstring stretch
Not sure if its a good idea, but this would avoid having to use the arm strength
It still requires scooching towards that end of the bed but it seems like it otherwise would be a 'lazy' way to stretch hamstrings easily
Before in the handicap room, I did something similar with a chair but it wasn't as soft. And now I'm using my chair in a different position in the non-handicap room closer to the side table of the bed to hold stuff
The other easiest way seem to be
1. tuck one leg in
2. straighten the other leg, maybe put a pillow under it
3. lean forward -> hamstring stretch
I don't know why they seem to emphasize doing the hamstring stretch with a strap, but probably because at the start your mobility is worse and they are thinking about the situation of being stuck on your back in bed in one spot
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I used to rotate between the hamstring, quad, adductor, and abductor stretches doing them in roughly 1:1:1:1 ratios in terms of time
I don't think that's a great idea anymore -> I'm not having any significant pain from adductor stretches in physical therapy and the only pain I'm having from abductor stretches is from nerve pain, not the muscle pain
I'm having the most pain in the hamstrings and quads during physical therapy -> so it seems like I should spend most of my stretching time on hamstrings and quads, no? Quads are the easiest muscles to stretch by far from a sitting position, you just sit up and then heel to butt -> quad stretch
hamstrings with the wheelchair idea above are also pretty low effort to start doing and maybe I should just spend more of my time in a position (closer to the edge of the bed where the wheelchair is) where I am only 1 or 2 seconds away from starting a hamstring stretch if I wanted to do one (just lift leg onto the soft arm wheelchair rest -> insta hamstring stretch)
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At some point are you thinking of doing internal tibias in Athens?
Nah. Half a year of being wheelchair bound doesn't appeal to me :P I also have concerns about potential knee damage from doing tibias
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Note to self:
montaza food
the greek salad that costs 8 euros is mostly cucumber and tomato, the only new vegetables you get from it that you can't already get from breakfast are onions and peppers, and its not that much more. the greek salad is also pretty massive and is hard to finish
the falafel wraps look delicious, at least from what I saw afar, I might want to try one some time
still not that easy to get a large amount of protein for dinner, its mostly carbs for most meals, maybe I've overlooked a dish?
wish they had souvlaki but I can see why they would not invest in the equipment needed for it
another patient is telling me the hotel doesn't allow takeout delivered to the hotel. However, I don't see how they can possibly enforce that if someone just does the delivery to a nearby address and walks over. And they also can't stop grocery delivery, which could include precooked meals so I'm a bit confused
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other notes:
tuck in fingers not using during wheelchair, don't want them to bump into the metal wires of the wheelchair wheel
difficult to force myself to eat more eggs in the morning for protein, the chocolate cake and orange juice are easier to eat because of the sugar
Somehow when I'm in alot of pain, I don't feel like eating the tomatoes or cucumbers at breakfast at all,, not even the apples
hard to deal with temptations to skip a day of clicking "cmon just one day of rest won't hurt" though I wonder if this could cause any problems with premature consolidation later
today was the coldest morning I've been through yet in Athens, usually the past weeks weather was amazing even at 7 am
hoping when the ice packs to the hotel and pedal machine gets setup I will have an easier time
it is psychologically unpleasant to see the flexibility gains you make worked against by the lengthening (I got more flexible but now that muscle will be tighter again because the leg is now longer) \
the stationary bike they give you cannot really fit in the non-handicap montaza hotel room, be warned
dreams are getting strange, probably from the longer dreams resulting from not being woken up by the strip club music is contributing to that
right leg clicking is much harder than the left leg for me. The fact that the big click comes first for the right leg makes it harder I think, but I'm not sure. yelling helps. Clicking was going so well a few weeks ago, but once the whole thigh is sore again, clicking becomes painful again
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I think you should just order whatever food you want and hope for the best ;D
When do you take x-rays next?
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the montaza hotel chocolate cake, ice cream, and french fries temporarily distract from the pain and seem a bit dangerous for this reason
gonna branch out and try some other dinner dishes aside from the burger I think, I think with enough salt I can overpower the lemon flavoring of the occasional chicken dishes
the pizza I would say is still not worth it, I mean its alot of calories and filling for 6.50 euros but at the end of the day its a bunch of hardish bread with a small amount of tomato sauce and some cheese
I keep forgetting to ask them for the dish of the day on the phone. But often its like "its X traditional Greek dish, it is sort of like pasta w/ red sauce and X and Y and a smallish amount of meat" and I'll be thinking "man I'm in pain, do I go with the cheap burger meal which I know will feel good w/ the fries or do I roll the dice on this more expensive thing I don't know how to spell and am not sure I can find a picture of?"
At the hospital, there were alot of greek dishes I think and somehow I didn't have much luck w/ the various pasta/tomato/cheese dishes, they are sort of lighter and different flavored, maybe different herbs than what I'm used to in the USA with fast food. Kind of like cheese with some sweeter notes and herbs i don'[t recognize and I didn't have much luck w/ it
The falafel wraps look delicious from afar, I should prolly look at the options again. I mean falafel is deep fried, no? I'm not sure how much better it is than french fries. Occasionally the hotel has a lemon flavored piece of chicken with a bunch of rice dish, I wonder when that will come back, I think I won't mind it and it will be a break from this fried stuff.
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I think you should just order whatever food you want and hope for the best ;D
When do you take x-rays next?
er i think Its Monday? Prolly I should find out, I think its monday every two weeks for me not sure
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Looking at the novotel menu vs montaza hotel menu
novotel seems to have some like expensive higher end options like a 25 Euro salmon meal
but novotel doesn't seem to have like the 6-7 euro meal options that montaza has
novotel looks like it has a greater variety of ice cream options and more fruits and has more french stuff, probably because the french company accor owns novotel
probably my favorite fruit now are the green apples at montaza, something about that sour sugary taste in the skin
I think for the breakfast buffet I can eat like 5-6 eggs until I can't eat anymore, I mean maybe I could eat more if I had less chocolate milk or less orange juice
Although sometimes you'll hear from some of bodybuilders/ weightlifters that you gotta eat protein every X hours or 3 hours or w/e, but I'm skeptical of that. I mean if you eat a big breakfast buffet I have to think it takes a long time for all of that food to digest
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Trying to see if I can request a healthier starch option than french fries with the 6.50 euro burger meal, a little bit worried about the potential long term effects of eating french fries every day for several months (ex: supersize me movie)
It seems hit or miss when they have rice available
I mean I could ask for a bunch of toast/bread I guess but that would be pretty bland
wonder if I could ask for potatoes instead, maybe I'll do that
They probably have pasta on hand which might taste OK with salt
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I have an idea
I could buy the vanilla ice cream during breakfast and then eat with the chocolate cake they have at montaza. Or with the ice cream with the other sugar powdered cake they have sometimes
Probably not a great idea though, better to fill my stomach with the breakfast buffet food during breakfast time. and in fact maybe I should be just grabbing two plates of eggs first thing to ensure I eat more protein before I eat any cake or chocolate milk. I feel a bit awkward about asking for help to fill two plates of eggs--- usually, I ask for one plate, they fill up like 2/3 of a plate and they are like "want more?" I'm like "yup" they put a bit more, they ask me again, this repeats like 5 times until one plate is full
The eggs are positioned a big higher than what I can see from my wheelchair. At some point I should be make the trek to the breakfast buffet with the walker probably
I'm still wary of their sausages, they seem very soft/dough-like in consistency and I wish they were cooked a bit more, I'm a bit afraid of them after the time I puked after eating them (though that could be unrelated)
Definitely leg lengthening related
hamstring stretches seem to benefit from PNS (stretch, tense up muscle, relax, stretch with more range of motion than before) but I might try it with quads too
when I fit my wheelchair in the space between the bathroom door and the bed with the wheelchair facing the bed, the wheelchair seems to auto scrunch up into partial folded mode - probably from the lack of space
it sort of gives a cradle space in the middle to rest one leg on while another can rest on a wheelchair handle for a hamstring stretch
I'm trying to prioritize the most important things to bring back to the USA after I leave Greece. The pee bottle is useful but also very cheap/replaceable. Same with the grabber. The extra big ice packs for my legs were a big expensive so I might try to save those. Probably want to save the walker/crutches/wheelchair of course. Probably want to save all of my clothes, computers, etc. So I guess its a question of what I am comfortable with abandoning in Greece. Probably the pillows. The extra blanket I got was expensive though. I can probably abandon all my liquids, they are pretty replaceable. It is odd- I feel like I brought too much but I also somewhat feel that I use almost everything I brought. Wish I had brought a bigger second travel bag-> although it would be very clunky to bring with me, ultimately I'll just end up asking the airport to move it for me so its no problem
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Stuff I thought I would use but didn't end up using as much as I thought:
- portable thin book holders (holds books/papers upright) -> desk is too tiny, no space anyway
- my favorite extra big towel -> I used it as a blanket on the plane ride but I never use it now since I don't shower that often. also its size is a hassle during LL
- shower chair they give me -> I find myself using this next to my bed to stretch my hamstrings since I don't shower that often
- tablets -> thought I'd use these more but honestly with the m1 macbook air battery life/weight/having a keyboard there isn't much point to using tablets for what I mostly do (listen to youtube vids to distract me from pain)
- computer I use for gaming -> tiny desk at Montaza uncomfortable, I don't use it that much, I stay in bed more often and listen to stuff from my m1 macbook air, developing some right wrist pain also
- paper towels -> no point, just use the hotel's towels + toilet paper
what I am using more than I thought:
- I have a second grabber and I leave it in the bathroom, it helps me grab random stuff, helps me adjust my slippers
- vaseline, useful for all sorts of things, maybe I should have bought more, some brands are better quality than others
- cleaning wipes, so useful, so cheap
I spend alot of my time just eyes closed, lying down, listening to something, trying to escape from the pain and discomfort, waiting till I feel like doing some more stretches and then repeating this
I think it could be good to have two small water bottles and maybe like a strap connected to a grocery bag -> can fill up two water bottles each time you go to the bathroom so you have more water by the bed (handy for thirst, rinsing mouth, rinsing w/e)
I don't think a dry shampoo is that helpful because I can just sit on the toilet, reach my arms over to the sink and wash my hair that way
I thought that a VR headset would be nice during LL, but I actually think its probably worse than just a thin and light laptop with long battery life b/c of comfort and hassle
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Oh I guess I thought I would use my wireless keyboard and laptop and HDMI cable with the TV like back at home but that turned out to not be a thing, the TV is like up in the air and small
Maybe would be different for novotel, idk?
Its just alot easier to use a small thin and light laptop near you at all times than deal with the above
I think bringing some strong see through bags is useful and a bunch of nametags is useful. At montaza the storage room is sort of them just putting all the stuff on the floor together, good to have your stuff labeled I think
A small fan is quite useful for cooling off your butt b/c you'll spend alot of your time sitting on it
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On the plane ride, the seat table is a bit too low to use the laptop comfortably so I ended up just rewatching LOTR
I think maybe podcasts are ideal for the plane ride, you just close your eyes
I got the burger meal with pasta, it was 7.50 euros instead of 6.50 but at least it avoids eating fried foods
With some salt, the pasta tastes pretty good, I think they drizzled some oil on it to make it taste better not sure
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I think the mornings are a bit rough because at that point the legs are very stiff/sore and I think it is possible that by that time the painkillers have worn off
In the evenings I sort of find myself waiting until the tramadol kicks in, that sleepiness and then I feel its time to do the clicks
My technique seems to be getting better (not having legs tucked in too close -> feels a bit crammed) or starting at a position that lets me use gravity and angles better to be able to click more easily with less force from my arm
I remember seeing a youtube vid wishing there were left and right specific nails and I sort of wish that was the case. It is just much easier if the first click is the small click, I can't explain why
I have not yet tried the two arm method of clicking, I mean it looks really efficient but requires you to engage your arm/upper body muscles just slightly a bit more than the way the nurses show you
In a day it feels like there are three kinds of painful experiences:
1. Clicking (though I did have a period where clicking was virtually painless briefly when my amount of total lengthening was low but my technique was improving alot)
2. Exercising (except bicycle exercise, bicycle basically never hurts and feels fantastic) - walking with the walker is not bad but my hands/wrists are starting to hurt, maybe being lighter will help for this. Its also just not so pleasant to walk with the walker when the thighs are sore in general obviously
3. stretching, especially at physical therapy is the most painful part of the experience I think. I mean I still like it because I think to myself "there is no way I am going to achieve those ranges of motion by myself, its better pain now as opposed to more pain later with also less walking function"
I know they want us to walk like an hour a day. On a day to day basis, the fear of the pain during physical therapy gives alot of motivation to do at home stretches to decrease that pain (though in practice the pain might end up being the same, they'll just go for even more range of motion). There isn't something as visceral to motivate you to do more walking.
There is one person doing externals now that I know of here in Athens, and I am under the impression that even small stretching movements cause him great pain due to the pins. the female physical therapist tends to get annoyed because from her perspective, she is hardly moving the legs/feet but it causes groans/screams of pain. I have to think that this disconnect is frustrating for externals patients.
The physical therapy room as of oct 2022 is on the 3rd floor (not in the hotel ,not in the hospital) (it will say in the elevator in Greek "physikotherapia" for the third floor where the ph sound is the greek letter phi and the th is theta and capital rho looks like a P for R sounds). The pavement around the physical therapy center is slanted/old so be careful when using the walker on it
I'm still trying to figure out what "peristo" means, I hear it alot from Greek speakers
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I think a second pair of slippers might be helpful in case your first breaks but slippers are probably cheap/really easy to replace in athens
I have to remember to bring like actual shoes and socks when I start using the anti gravity treadmill, maybe I should ask them what is the first date I should bring shoes
Its getting alot colder too now, I miss the September weather already
I keep forgetting to check the weather in the morning, might be helpful to know when to bring my raincoat to protect my smartphone
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There is a worker at the montaza hotel with a small black beard / stubble who seems naturally tall and handsome and sometimes I wonder if he understands what he has. He's friendly/polite, comes in and brings meals for room service, and I wonder if he realizes he naturally has what alot of these patients are going through alot of pain trying to just get a small bit of
In youtube vids about Greece from the Easy Greek language learning channel, I would sometimes see in those vids Greek guys saying that Greek girls are hot- it seems to be true, but I am possibly getting a distorted view because montaza hotel is near a bunch of strip clubs + there were plenty of young tourists from other countries around who might have just been wearing less clothes back in September because it was very warm
I remember leechlet's diary years ago where he remembered seeing some tall, good looking people in France and he felt a bit bad about himself
At physical therapy, there are alot of leg lengthening patients, and it feels a bit like gym/physical education class in school except we are taking turns occasionally screaming or groaning in pain. We're sort of all united in one view, which is that height has value and the lack of it can cause problems, but on a day to day basis we don't really talk about those kind of societal issues and its more of like friendly pleasantries (how are you feeling, how is the hotel, where are you from, etc)
there are lots of people from australia I feel. Just two people I think right now from the USA, which surprised me a bit. Actually, that makes sense because I think that the USA has more LL doctors than Australia. With an international group like this, English becomes the main language in the physical therapy center except when the nurses/physical therapists are talking amongst each other. And it makes sense there are no British people here since Dr. Giotikas has a British office. And it probably makes sense there are no Greek patients that I've seen yet because they can simply just live at home and find local physical therapists in their area
I'm finding that after closing my eyes/resting after using the ice machine / electricity / pressure machine at physical therapy that (like waking up from a nap), my voice is a bit muffled and hard to understand, especially under a mask
When there are too many people in the physical therapy center, they tell us to wear masks
I got 4 covid shots done before I came and sometimes get lazy with mask usage. after I ate the meal on the airplane ride, I've been a bit lazier about putting a mask on since I already basically broke my rule on the airplane
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test
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Have you decided whether you will move to Novotel yet? Also, any update on the SUV or are you still taking taxis?
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Have you decided whether you will move to Novotel yet? Also, any update on the SUV or are you still taking taxis?
I'm staying at Montaza for the whole time, I feel like w/ gnail I can handle the non handicap room well. I took a shower with Evi's help and I feel like with practicing once or so more I can do it on my own (but I am not really motivated to shower on my own when I can just wash my hair while sitting on the toilet by reaching my arms over to the sink's water stream)
I asked Evi about the SUV, she told me to just wait and she would tell everyone about it when they were ready so I'm in the dark
I still am considering novotel if I do internal tibias one day (I'm thinking of doing maybe like 4 weeks montaza handicap room -> then move to novotel but I wonder if my idea is stupid or not, I can't tell. I can't tell how much greater frequency of nurse visits will even be a thing or how much it will matter.)
Evi's great, she even came last Sunday to help, it feels like she is constantly working and rarely takes breaks
What are your thoughts on what to do for food? I don't know if Novotel has a microwave or a bigger refrigerator or anything. At Montaza, I feel like I can fit my extra large cold packs (coming in a few days), some water, maybe some soda in the cooler they give us but I don't really feel like dealing with storing meat or anything like that. I find myself just eating the burger meal with pasta at montaza, I paid a bit more to get the pasta I think but it was still less than 8 euros per meal. It is still a mostly carb meal (maybe unfortunately?) but at least it seems like a step up over eating french fries everyday, which I was beginning to be afraid of health-wise
Novotel seems like a more upscale French-influenced (in the menu) hotel and their food seems significantly more expensive but maybe better. I don't know why but I'm having some issues uploading pictures, but I tried to upload the montaza menu but the forum wouldn't let me, not sure why
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Have you decided whether you will move to Novotel yet? Also, any update on the SUV or are you still taking taxis?
Still taking taxis, Evi told me to wait until they are ready to announce the SUV info to everyone
Taxi costs are indeed cancer but I am thankful that there is another patient who goes to physical therapy at the same time as me and we can share costs
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Evi's great, she even came last Sunday to help, it feels like she is constantly working and rarely takes breaks
What are your thoughts on what to do for food? I don't know if Novotel has a microwave or a bigger refrigerator or anything. At Montaza, I feel like I can fit my extra large cold packs (coming in a few days), some water, maybe some soda in the cooler they give us but I don't really feel like dealing with storing meat or anything like that. I find myself just eating the burger meal with pasta at montaza, I paid a bit more to get the pasta I think but it was still less than 8 euros per meal. It is still a mostly carb meal (maybe unfortunately?) but at least it seems like a step up over eating french fries everyday, which I was beginning to be afraid of health-wise
Novotel seems like a more upscale French-influenced (in the menu) hotel and their food seems significantly more expensive but maybe better. I don't know why but I'm having some issues uploading pictures, but I tried to upload the montaza menu but the forum wouldn't let me, not sure why
Is Evi the only nurse that visits you?
Hmm I would order groceries with mostly vegetables/pre-made meals to save money (if it works out cheaper)...tbh I'm a vegetarian so it's important to me to get vegetables and protein powder, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. (I'm thinking about stopping vegetarianism when I get the surgery but chicken is the only meat I like). What do the others staying at Montaza do for food?
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Is Evi the only nurse that visits you?
Hmm I would order groceries with mostly vegetables/pre-made meals to save money (if it works out cheaper)...tbh I'm a vegetarian so it's important to me to get vegetables and protein powder, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. (I'm thinking about stopping vegetarianism when I get the surgery but chicken is the only meat I like). What do the others staying at Montaza do for food?
Sometimes Bill comes instead. There are two visiting nurses in total (Bill and Evi), I'm under the impression usually at most one of them is at Montaza
Though actually recently I don't really need as much help as before and they spend more of their time helping the guy who uses externals. I think people on externals might want to stay at Montaza for the more frequent nurse visits because of the pin cleaning/infections/etc, not sure
I'm really only aware of what the guy doing externals (lives in Montaza also) is doing for food, and I am under the impression he is begrudgingly eating the hotel's food but wishes it had more protein and wishes he could get takeout. I think he is eating some falafel dishes and sometimes the burger dish. And sometimes they'll have like a chicken leg and a big plate of rice flavored with lemon. There also seems to be a variety of dish of the day traditional greek dishes, which I'm under the impression are often mixtures of pasta, red sauce, cheese, maybe some meat, and other things
I am under the impression with all the greek salads/falafel dishes it should be easy for a vegetarian to get by at montaza but it might depend on what someone likes. I feel like the amount of food they give you is pretty large
Although, according to the guy doing externals, the montaza hotel says they don't allow takeout from other places, I think a way around that is to simply set the address to be a nearby address, then go outside and accept that food when it comes. It is a hassle but oh well
I have not done the math, but I am not sure if premade meals put into the fridge come out to be cheaper when factoring in delivery costs. The other issue is that you will have no way to warm up the food unless you count using the kettle they give you to boil water and pour it in. So actually I guess if someone wanted like ramen meals/oatmeal meals/pour in hot water types of meals or something then yes it would be cheaper than hotel and maybe I'll try that sometime. I guess and canned soup meals should obviously be cheaper than the hotel too if you're willing to eat them at room temperature.
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Have you decided whether you will move to Novotel yet? Also, any update on the SUV or are you still taking taxis?
Ah good timing, they just sent an email about it to everyone just now, it's probably in your inbox
if not I will ask if I can paste the info here but basically it is approximately these costs:
SUV
montaza -> physio is 7 euros
novotel -> physio is 4 euros
(One way costs for everything)
Thank god, I think this cuts the costs way down even less than taxi sharing (er its a good reduction but not as much as I thought. I was paying 20 euros * 4 is 80 euros per week with taxi sharing cutting my old costs in half. So now it will be more like 7*2*4=56 euros from montaza per week for physical therapy travel). I didn't include doctor visits in my calculation since those are only once every two weeks
hospital for both cases is like 11/12 euros ish
to airport is like 32 euros
starts mid october, we have to inform the nurses if we want to use it, I think we will have some kind of help getting into the vehicle not sure
What are your thoughts now for Novotel vs Montaza? That 4 euro one way cost for novotel does indeed look good, but it doesn't really make up for Novotel's more expensive cost. Then again, the montaza handicap room is a bit expensive like 61 euros per day and novotel is 86 ish I think
In a week so you'd save uh lets see (7-4)*4*2=24 euros per week I think? So for travel costs for Novotel now you would only save 24 euros per week if my math is right? So Novotel is significantly more expensive than Montaza still but the good news is now that with the SUV everyones costs go down overall
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Thanks for the info regarding the new SUV prices...wow that's a massive difference I think! Much more cost effective...
Doing some rough calculations with the new SUV prices, Montaza still seems cheaper overall - I'd say there's about a 1000 euro difference (if not more) depending on which room you choose to stay in.
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Found out some things
Internal tibias precise:
- you can walk very short distances with the walker
- but they still ask you to bring the wheelchair with you to physical therapy
- Trying to find out about staying in Athens 3 months vs 6 months
- I'm under the impression there is greater risk of complications but in the short term it is less pain for the patient, am I wrong?
- still don't know what stretches they do for internal tibias at physical therapy, maybe I'll observe it later. I have to think that physical therapy they probably do more than just calves stretches, I mean I would think they would want to stretch the others just in case? If the patient is there anyway for physical therapy and needs to walk again eventually? I keep missing it and not seeing it, maybe I'll see it next time when I go to physical therapy
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Alright here is the original SUV email, evidently its just a pilot experiment for now:
"We are delighted to introduce a new transfer service for our patients in Athens, with our brand new company car, a Peugeot 2008 SUV!
You can now use our car to go from the affiliated hotels (or nearby areas) to your physio sessions, hospital appointments or to the airport on the day of your departure from Athens.
The service starts on Thursday 13th October 2022. The first 2 weeks will be pilot, to see how the service works, make adjustments etc.
You can benefit from its competitive pricing, the familiarity and comfort (as opposed to traveling with unknown vehicles and drivers), and from the fact that it is nurse led, so a nurse will be there to help you at all times during transfers.
Please let the nurses know if you wish to use the service
The pricing will be as follows:
Montaza / Grand Hyatt to physio center: 7 euro
Montaza / Grand Hyatt to Mediterraneo hospital: 8 euro
Novotel to physio center: 4
Novotel to Mediterraneo hospital: 11
Physio center to Mediterraneo hospital:12
All hotels to the airport: 32
All of the above prices are per person, one way.
Payments can be made in cash every Thursday for the total of transfers you did in the week before.
An invoice/receipt of your payments can be issued before your departure, at the end of your stay in Athens."
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"Payments can be made in cash every Thursday for the total of transfers you did in the week before."
Alright I am not sure if they will stick to this, but based on the above, I would bring alot of cash in Euros just in case, I think its on the order of 800-1000 euros but am not completely sure my math is right
This is a bit of a problem for me, I need to get to an ATM but I think the nearest ATMs to Montaza might involve crossing two very large/wide busy streets which I'm not really willing to do on my walker or wheelchair
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I realized another pro/con of novotel vs montaza
at montaza in the three rooms I've been in, I haven't ever been able to get the water to be hot, just lukewarm, slightly warmer at most
maybe I'm wrong, anyone wanna chime in?
at novotel, based on something ozboy told me, it should be able to get hot water from the shower which he said helps with soreness if you aim the nozzle at your sore leg
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If you take a bath you might have to heat up the kettle and pour it in
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Ah there's no basin for a bath at montaza, its just a shower
Anyone know if that is the case for Novotel?
I've found the second grabber stick kind of useful, I just leave it in the bathroom and grab stuff when I need to and I don't have to take the grabber with me to the bathroom while using a walker
The small pedal bike machine I bought is awesome, really a game changer for me. Helps with stiffness and depending on if you are leaning in or leaning back it stretches the muscles gently. Useful to warm up legs around clicking time or just move the legs/distract you from the pain
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Standard rooms have a basin in the shower and a glass door.
Handicap room doesn't. Straight on the floor
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Standard rooms have a basin in the shower and a glass door.
Handicap room doesn't. Straight on the floor
Thanks!
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I wonder if some kind of protein powder with omega 3 fats (maybe from seeds or something) might be good for this journey
But I don't know if it has any adverse cross reactions with other things we take so not sure
I mean I buy the burger meal with pasta at Montaza and think to myself "well I just ate a meal that is almost entirely carbs with a small amount of meat and an even smaller amount of veggies" and I feel somewhat that high carb meal - I sort of wonder if I even need those carbs I mean the training is hard but I don't know if it actually uses alot of calories
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If you take a bath you might have to heat up the kettle and pour it in
I was also going to say you could try a hot water bottle if you don't have a bath
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I feel now the hardest part is the extreme soreness/stiffness/unresponsiveness of the legs I feel right after waking up
I often nap after physical therapy, and I heard this napping is common (not sure how much is from exhaustion and how much is from the cooling of the legs they do at the end)
The soreness after physical therapy -> it is very difficult psychologically to do clicks that night. So far I've won the battle each night against the urge to skip clicks but I am afraid I may lose this battle someday if I don't figure out something
I've found the massage gun useful for this, I sort of glide it gently over the legs and it "wakes" them up a little and makes them more responsive to being moved
Then I go use the pedal machine a bit to "wake" up the muscles even more
Unfortunately, it doesn't make the soreness go away
I keep pushing the evening clicks to be later and later at night to buy me time
Its often not so bad once it gets started, its only 7 clicks..
Sort of becomes this battle "cmon evening painkillers, please kick in already and help me do the evening clicks"
There is something psychologically difficult about the clicks too "alright time to lose my flexibility progress a bit by lengthening my legs"
My hands and feet often sweat easily in real life before this, and they seem to sweat more during LL in general
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Right now, the things stopping me from using the shower hot water to stop soreness is:
1. the lack of hot water in shower nozzle
2. I could boil some water and then I think to make it safe, I would need to dilute it with regular tap water and then it would only last like one pour on my legs, not like a continuous stream of hot water
3. The overall awkwardness of getting into the tiny crammed shower area. Requires several points of not being supported by the walker (one to fold walker to be able to fit inside, one to grab shower chair to pull it into the shower area since otherwise it would block my entrance if I left in the shower area to begin with, one to fold the walker to pull it outside of the shower area). Still working out with Evi the best way to do this if I'm alone without her
"just walk inside without the walker" I could I guess -> but with the anti gravity treadmill even walking at only 50% of my weight is a significant task and same w/ walking w/ the crutches, I'm still afraid to try walking unassisted
However, the extra large cooling pads should be coming soon and I wonder if they will be a game changer. Unfortunately, unlike hot water, I don't think it is a good idea to use them before clicking or exercise, they seem more like a pain relief method to use when you're exhausted and can't exercise or stretch anymore
Anyone at Montaza been able to get like actual hot water and not just kind of warm water from the shower nozzle?
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Thanks for your post. I've had a rough idea about what to expect from this surgery.
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The burger at montaza- the edges of the patty are always burnt, I gotta remember to remove those edges before I eat them
Still debating whether to get a protein powder of sorts. Kinda feel iffy about the mostly carb dinners I usually have. Just kinda afraid of cross reactions with other things
Then again, protein powders/drinks are probably common. I am pretty sure the guy with a starting height of about 175 cm said he takes them everyday hm..
Definitely leg lengthening related
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Thanks for your post. I've had a rough idea about what to expect from this surgery.
I wonder if they have the Hobbit on the United airplane ride to Athens, I might watch it on the way back since I already watched the original LOTR trilogy on the way to Athens
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I know it's still early days as you are lengthening but I'm surprised it's much of an issue if you are using the nails that support 95kgs per leg
yeah so like for some context
On the anti gravity treadmill, currently I'm using like 50% of my weight (a machine is holding up my upper body so that it feels like only 50% of my weight is on my legs) -> it seems to be standard for them to start patients off with 50% or 40% is on the anti gravity treadmill
I don't think I could do 100% now
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1. Imo don't get cash at the airport unless its for small amounts like 75 USD or less -> prepare to get ripped off and lose 25% of your money, the trolls at the airport currency exchange will try to convince you to trade in even more "how long are you staying in Athens?"
2. The hospital has an ATM -> I'd get there early and try it out
I still don't know the best ATM near montaza, they all seem like they involve crossing that very wide set of two huge roads (frankly looks like hell to cross even before the surgery)
I don't know if schwab's debit card works for this (schwab gives ATM fee reimbursements) but I heard maybe fidelity also is a good option to get cash, not sure, anyone wanna chime in?
I don't know if Schwab's debit card even works at the hospital ATM or not
Anyone knows the questions the hospital ATM asks? Keep hearing that some ATMs will try to trick you at first into a bad rate, see youtube for that
Cash (physical Euros) is super useful for:
1. Exchanging money / splitting bills between other patients
2. Now it will be super useful to use on the cheaper transportation costs of the SUV service they are setting up
3. Giving money to a nurse so they can buy something for you in case you forgot to bring something like some warm clothes (even though its Athens, it will get cold starting in October sometimes, especially mornings)
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If you are going to use the nonhandicap room, I'd say its probably worth it to bring some kind of shoulder/sling bag that is big enough to hold water bottles, useful for refilling your water each night (montaza sells filled new plastic water bottles for like 0.50 euros which is great
For handicap rooms, it doesn't matter, you just roll in to the bathroom with your wheelchair and water bottles and go up to the sink, but even in that case I think some kind of shoulder bag would be good. Maybe a strap connected to a strong thick grocery bag too would give you more room to hold stuff
Right now I have like 3 water bottles that I rotate between the bed desk, the fridge, refilling them in the sink etc
There's always the option to just walk into the bathroom with the walker, use their cup to drink the tap water (which I hear is supposed to be safe in Athens) but I'm partial to cold water
I mean I could use a non-plastic bottle for the water bottles, it might be better but it would be heavier and annoying if it ever fell and broke
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I keep imagining a sarcastic troll Christmas poem about a hypothetical Larry the Leg Lengthener who wakes up and eats a "balanced and nutritious breakfast" of one tramadol, two paracetamols (painkillers), one lyrica for nerve pain, and one xarelto. To practice his singing and warm up his voice box, he goes to physical therapy to get his legs stretched extra hard today. He meets a 5'11 patient who is trying to get to 6'2 and asks him "why not go for even more". I have to think there are some sarcastic jokes related to leg lengtheners
I have yet to meet a patient who is very tall who is trying to become shorter but I wonder if Dr. Paley has encountered this with extremely tall women wanting to be discriminated against less / wanting to feel more normal
It is different for very tall women though. Although they face discrimination in dating, at the same time, their height/long legs is also kind of seen as desirable
I used to eat bigger breakfasts but somehow now I only eat like a bunch of eggs, chocolate milk, and maybe a small amount of OJ, I can't seem to eat anymore. I hope the hotel gets some like sausage patties or something to spice things up, their usual small thumb-sized sausages I feel are not so appealing after a few times. I'd recommend not eating their honeydew, tasted a bit odd and too soft to me
I feel like there is always a useful thing that can be done in a moment (rest, stretch, refill water, clean up room a bit, set alarm, plan for the upcoming day, exercise on the pedal machine)
I vaguely remember programmerdude or some username said with Dr. Paley LL he just played computer games to pass the time and it wasn't so bad. However, I'm finding sitting at desk to be totally unappealing and less comfortable than a bed, like the thighs will not feel so good after being on a chair for a while, maybe some cushioning helps
podcasts seem to be better when you're exhausted, you just close eyes and go limp
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Idk if things would be different if I was healthier/thinner/even younger but somehow the thought of doing quadrilateral lengthening like some people are doing my mind keeps thinking "man screw that, I am having difficulty just dealing with two nails in me, how would 4 feel?"
Then again, if you are thin, flexible, healthy, have a strong upper body I sort of feel it could be quite doable..
I believe though that if you do that, there is a point in time where you will actually be lengthening all 4 nails at once in a day, which frankly sounds pretty rough. I believe if you do quadrilateral they will do all 4 as precise and no gnail, I can't remember the reason. I can't remember but if you have 4 nails in you, I don't think you can walk with a walker for very long with the walker anyway so I'm not sure the use of gnail in that situation. I also wonder how clicking would feel if you have four broken segments and four nails in you so maybe it makes sense they just use precise for quadrilateral, not sure the actual reason though
I see why they encourage g-nail femurs, its just easier for everyone. Except clicking maybe. But I'm pretty happy Dr. Giotikas convinced me to just start with gnail for now, its easy mode compared to what I've seen other patients experience. I don't believe that gnail tibias is an option I don't know the scientific reasons for this
I remember the fear I felt the days after surgery whenever I was being asked "shall we do some clicking now?" "oh god no" and now I'm glad its much easier than before
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Right shin numbness seems to be affecting something
when the right shin is itchy, I scratch it, yet feel not much, unsure what is a good solution?
nevermind, waited it out, itching feeling left, right shin still numb ish though, its an odd feeling. You touch your shin and you can tell you are touching your shin but the feeling is alot more numbed on the surface
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I've gone back to my older technique for clicking for the right leg, seems to be working better, kind of what nurses show except I lean my whole body to the left on some pillows and have my whole body go completely limp, but I start off w/ leg a bit closer to clicking position w/ pillow and angles and-> then I just let that right arm weight do the work and relax
The clicking was alot less painful today for the right leg
It wouldn't look like much in a video, not much to show, basically would look like a corpse sitting but flopped over to his left on some pillows with a click eventually coming after the arm weight/light pressure on top of his right knee pushes the knee down enough
I sort of just feel the resistance and then exhale and let the whole body go limp/relax more and then the knee moves a bit more towards the clicking position and then rinse and repeat until the click comes
I think my wounds healing has helped to make this more possible, I can really lean towards my left without hurting myself by squishing open wounds or anything
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Dreaming to be tall as like an elf..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bawVQ7fkOfA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOvoGqraKY&t=34s
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Found out some things
Internal tibias precise:
- you can walk very short distances with the walker
- but they still ask you to bring the wheelchair with you to physical therapy
- Trying to find out about staying in Athens 3 months vs 6 months
- I'm under the impression there is greater risk of complications but in the short term it is less pain for the patient, am I wrong?
- still don't know what stretches they do for internal tibias at physical therapy, maybe I'll observe it later. I have to think that physical therapy they probably do more than just calves stretches, I mean I would think they would want to stretch the others just in case? If the patient is there anyway for physical therapy and needs to walk again eventually? I keep missing it and not seeing it, maybe I'll see it next time when I go to physical therapy
If it's a femur precice, you can't walk with a walker even for a short distance, right?
Don't precice patients and g-nail patients usually train together? Or are there so few precice patients that you have trouble observing them?
Thanks!！
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If it's a femur precice, you can't walk with a walker even for a short distance, right?
Don't precice patients and g-nail patients usually train together? Or are there so few precice patients that you have trouble observing them?
Thanks!！
I only know of one femur precise patient, the girl
She walks short distances with the walker
that being said, based on her size, I have to think her total body weight is very low
I don't know if things would change for someone like me who is like 170 pounds and I don't think precise can support that as well as her weight
we all train together sort of, our times at PT are staggered but we still bump into alot other patients at PT
there may be more precise femur patients who I just don't realize are precise femur patients but I've met alot more gnail femur patients
What are your thoughts on Novotel vs Montaza? Still not sure what I do want to do if I do internal tibia someday, the hotel choice is one of questions to figure out
OH WAIT nvm I do know a second femur precise patient so I know at least two
I forget his reason for choosing precise over gnail, but he did that choice intentionally.
He looks very young, thin, and healthy but I'm under the impression from seeing him that he is in quite a bit of pain. But hey at least he avoids clicking I guess. I will say though that generally clicking with my left leg is no problem at all, and I am improving my technique for right leg clicking and I think hopefully clicking will eventually become a non issue
The thing about clicking is it sort of like adds two additional stressful sessions each day (morning clicks and evening clicks)
I'm sympathetic to the male nurse's view of preferring gnail because of the additional independence you have
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So by far the main thing I wish I knew when I started is this:
- don't spend most of your bed time leaning on the back bed rest, its too far from the edge of the bed
- imo spend more of your time closer to the edge of the bed where it is easier (just a few movements) to get your legs to be dangling off the edge of the bed. Use pillows to get comfortable there
why?
- easier to do the quad stretch where you just sit at the edge of the bed with legs dangling off the bed and tuck feet in -> a low effort quad stretch that doesn't require any upper body strength
- easier to do the hamstring stretch where you just lift one leg and put it on a chair or your locked wheelchair right next to the bed -> don't need to mess around with using arm strength with straps to hold up your hamstrings
- the edge of the bed is the best way to do the hip flexors stretches imo, just go to the edge of the bed, lie on your back, tuck one leg in -> the other leg gets a hip flexor stretch
Why tire out your upper body more than you need to? Need that strength for walker usage/etc
- if your'e closer to the edge of the bed -> easier to go from bed to walker transfers to practice them more frequently early on
at the start its just harder to move, its better to be closer to the action and not have to move around so much in the bed
also I know the first day the doctor will tell you to do 3 different stretches involving stretching your legs using your arm strength -> I'd say don't tire out your arms too much, it depends how fit you are at the start, but you're gonna need that upper body strength the coming days. And frankly the hamstring stretch he shows you the first day on your back using your arms/quads to hold up your leg-> that stretch inherently ends up tightening the quads alot from its positioning/needing to use the quads to hold up the legs which I feel can have consequences the following days if you overdo it
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I mean one thing I like about Montaza is maybe one morning, I'll check whatsapp and be pleasantly surprised that Evi says she will come to check in on me that morning (along with making her round checking in on the other patients). And so maybe she helps me shower or practice the transfer to the shower, which is a bit more complicated in the tiny montaza shower spaces in the non-handicap rooms
I am hoping that more patients go to novotel and then they also end up doing that at Novotel (regularly going, giving semi-surprise visits to patients to check up on them)
but right now I think there are just two novotel patients, and as internal femur patients with some experience, they don't need anyone to regularly check up on them. even the precise femur patient seems really independent
I'm away from the strip club noise but both Hyatt and Montaza are near two really busy roads and there is always like at least one a-hole driver per night who will intentionally crank up his motor to be extremely loud on the road or some bikers will make alot of noise
earplugs help alot
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I had gotten a hair transplant before and was awake during the surgery and it was rough during the surgery, my body was constantly hiccuping strongly and each insertion of a graft was a painful needle prick/stabbing feeling
For leg lengthening if you are curious, you won't feel a single thing during the surgery itself
They sort of put a gas mask on you, you doze off.
During the surgery, I had a dream where I was calmly talking to the anesthesiologist in her office (you meet her the day before, I think she has worked both in Athens and in the United States, her English is good). In reality, probably it was the anesthesiologist talking to the doctor instead that caused this dream
They do things like stick a tube down your throat and ream your bones during your surgery, and somehow I felt none of this at all during the surgery and just enjoyed my pleasant dream. I also somehow did not even like hear anything related to what they were doing, I think I may have heard the anesthesiologist speak early on but that's it
When you wake up, you'll feel great, I forget if they give you morphine? not sure. the next day, your throat will hurt because they stuck something down your throat during surgery
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I only know of one femur precise patient, the girl
She walks short distances with the walker
that being said, based on her size, I have to think her total body weight is very low
I don't know if things would change for someone like me who is like 170 pounds and I don't think precise can support that as well as her weight
we all train together sort of, our times at PT are staggered but we still bump into alot other patients at PT
there may be more precise femur patients who I just don't realize are precise femur patients but I've met alot more gnail femur patients
What are your thoughts on Novotel vs Montaza? Still not sure what I do want to do if I do internal tibia someday, the hotel choice is one of questions to figure out
OH WAIT nvm I do know a second femur precise patient so I know at least two
I forget his reason for choosing precise over gnail, but he did that choice intentionally.
He looks very young, thin, and healthy but I'm under the impression from seeing him that he is in quite a bit of pain. But hey at least he avoids clicking I guess. I will say though that generally clicking with my left leg is no problem at all, and I am improving my technique for right leg clicking and I think hopefully clicking will eventually become a non issue
The thing about clicking is it sort of like adds two additional stressful sessions each day (morning clicks and evening clicks)
I'm sympathetic to the male nurse's view of preferring gnail because of the additional independence you have
Thanks!!This information is so useful.The 10.7/12.5mm precice only supports 50lbs so I guess you lose a lot of independence... Maybe Montaza would be better choice if you need more help from a nurse :'(
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Thanks!!This information is so useful.The 10.7/12.5mm precice only supports 50lbs so I guess you lose a lot of independence... Maybe Montaza would be better choice if you need more help from a nurse :'(
Yeah I'm hoping that eventually enough people go to novotel that the nurses go to novotel more often. I think the issue is that right now with only two patients there or something (who are both femur internal patients who are fairly independent at this point) they don't feel that motivated to give them surprise visits
I feel like since novotel is so close to the PT center, I feel like it shouldn't be that hard for the nurses to go to novotel more often, I think the male nurse has a motorbike
Whereas montaza there are just so many patients that they can just sort of easily make the rounds and visit each patient briefly
The tiny desk space, the so-so breakfast food selection, dice roll of whether you're close to the strip club noise, overall noise from the busy roads, the crammed shower space in the nonhandicap rooms, and the 'hot' water being only somewhat warmer than lukewarm (at least in the three montaza rooms I've tried) are all things against Montaza. But I mean the price is great, especially the non handicap room, the food is also cheaper, the staff is also nice and helpful , the nurse visits are nice
When are you thinking of doing LL in Athens? I might be around for a while
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Thanks!!This information is so useful.The 10.7/12.5mm precice only supports 50lbs so I guess you lose a lot of independence... Maybe Montaza would be better choice if you need more help from a nurse :'(
You know actually it might not be as bad as I thought at first. It seems that precise femur and precise tibia patients still use the walker for short distances (within their room for example). It is just seems that the nurses really do not want internal tibia to use their walker to go outside for very long (such as to the PT center). However, I think actually they are OK with internal femur patients going to the PT center with their walker, I think the girl who is doing internal femurs goes to PT with her walker. So I'm a bit confused--- but I do remember that internal tibia patients I believe only go to the PT center with their wheelchair
But for someone who mainly stays in their room and isn't interested in exploring Athens, it might not be a big deal. And you can still explore outside with the wheelchair always.
Though I find the old, cracked, and uneven pavement all around Athens to be very unfriendly to wheelchairs though, frankly I find the old pavement to be slightly unfriendly to even walker users
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I think the hardest part now is just waking up
I can't tell if it is just a false perception, but it feels as if when I wake up my legs feel physically harder to the touch
And they feel very stiff and sore and less responsive
And in the first two or so hours after waking up I think to myself that clicking is going to be hard
But eventually, the thighs become less sore (but still sore) and my clicking technique I feel is really good now (the wounds healing helps I think for the current positions I use) and I've always been able to do the clicks each day. However, I have kept pushing the clicks to be later in the day to buy me more time hoping the legs will become less sore
I've improved my right leg clicking technique enough its not that much harder than left leg clicking. If you're wondering, I find right leg clicking to be rough because the big click is first (if that doesn't make sense, it will once you start clicking, you apply alot more force to your leg for the first click, it feels better if that first click is the small click).
I feel like the main thing the first two hours is to stay busy with misc tasks while you're waiting for the legs to stop feeling like sore bricks (go pee, drink some water, brush teeth, eat breakfast, wash your face, do some light cycling, do some light stretches, stay busy don't just lay in bed) and eventually the legs will become less heavy feeling but they will still feel sore
Every time I eat a meal, I end up with a dilemma-- "if I don't eat the painkiller before the meal and instead I eat it after the meal,... will the painkiller take alot longer to kick in/be frustrating that it is taking too long to kick in?" I don't know the scientific answer but this thought seems to enter my mind and causes me to often take painkillers right before meals
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If it's a femur precice, you can't walk with a walker even for a short distance, right?
Don't precice patients and g-nail patients usually train together? Or are there so few precice patients that you have trouble observing them?
Thanks!！
I might have misspoken, because I just realized I think the girl who is a precise femur patient does come to PT with her walker I believe. I don't know if her weight plays into this, though, she looks very lightweight
Yet for some reason it may be different for internal tibia patients, who I think only come to PT with their wheelchair
Also the femur precise girl seem to live at Novotel without the nurses coming to see her regularly, so actually precise femur might be alot more independent than I thought
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In terms of how the the height feels, I've only lengthened a little ( abit more than 2 cm I think) but since I started out about the height of the female nurse -> the lengthening has the effect of making the female nurse look progressively shorter each day
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I think the hardest part now is just waking up
I can't tell if it is just a false perception, but it feels as if when I wake up my legs feel physically harder to the touch
And they feel very stiff and sore and less responsive
And in the first two or so hours after waking up I think to myself that clicking is going to be hard
But eventually, the thighs become less sore (but still sore) and my clicking technique I feel is really good now (the wounds healing helps I think for the current positions I use) and I've always been able to do the clicks each day. However, I have kept pushing the clicks to be later in the day to buy me more time hoping the legs will become less sore
I've improved my right leg clicking technique enough its not that much harder than left leg clicking. If you're wondering, I find right leg clicking to be rough because the big click is first (if that doesn't make sense, it will once you start clicking, you apply alot more force to your leg for the first click, it feels better if that first click is the small click).
I feel like the main thing the first two hours is to stay busy with misc tasks while you're waiting for the legs to stop feeling like sore bricks (go pee, drink some water, brush teeth, eat breakfast, wash your face, do some light cycling, do some light stretches, stay busy don't just lay in bed) and eventually the legs will become less heavy feeling but they will still feel sore
Every time I eat a meal, I end up with a dilemma-- "if I don't eat the painkiller before the meal and instead I eat it after the meal,... will the painkiller take alot longer to kick in/be frustrating that it is taking too long to kick in?" I don't know the scientific answer but this thought seems to enter my mind and causes me to often take painkillers right before meals
Does Athens BJR give you the exercise bike to keep in your hotel room?
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Does Athens BJR give you the exercise bike to keep in your hotel room?
yes but it does not really fit in the small Montaza non-handicap rooms and also I find it a bit sketchy/unstable to try to mount, especially early on in the process
I might actually choose to stay in Athens extra long until early March after hearing someone else consider it (not sure, might leave in earlier) and then sell my small floor pedal machine to a new patient, its awesome, can just use it instantly at the edge of the bed, can lie down on your back and then it also stretches the quads a bit as you use it
I bought it from the German amazon (there's no Greek amazon, but there are some other similar website s I hear) and it only had German instructions but luckily it had pictures so the nurse was able to figure out how to assemble it
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I'm starting to think that based on my difficulties w/ quad/hamstring pain during PT, I might just focus on doing the quad stretch that stretches both leg's quads (sit at edge of bed, two legs dangle from bed, put balls of feet on floor, tuck feet in, knees forward) and the two leg hamstring stretch (sit at edge of bed, put both legs on wheelchair, lean forward)
in the hope that I just get more total quad and hamstring stretching by focusing on two leg stretches
I'm starting to think I should do less cycling and more stretching -> because that is what is going to decrease my pain during PT
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Idk about other patients but the "after pee" effect of pee coming out right after you think you are finished peeing seems to be really noticeable in this journey, I think have something to soak it up always in anticipation
especially in the hospital
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Toying with another idea to get in as much hamstring and quad stretch as possible
from the position of resting the back on the bed's back rest while sitting up:
Put two small pillows under your feet
1. Put heels on those two pillows, push down on both knees to stretch both hamstrings, then end this stretch
2. then stretch both quads by tucking both feet in towards butt (knees will be up towards air)
And then plan is to alternate just over and over between 1 and 2
Not sure if this is a good idea, still experimenting, but I think this is the easiest way to max out how much quad and hamstring stretches I get, wonder if there are better ideas?
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I've learned:
don't say "my X muscle is tight" to the nurses/PT. They sometimes interpret you as blaming the result on something out of your control or you claiming that your muscle is more tight than other patients. They may feel your muscle and say "oh no, its about as soft as other patients"
I think instead you can say like "the current range of motion of X muscle is low/not many degrees" which is an objective observation
The crutches feel way better than the walker, less hand pain. I like walking near the front desk in case I drop a crutch or fall down and can call for help. But I feel that is unlikely-- the only places I'm really afraid of is the awful cracked/old/uneven pavement around Athens during the rain.
I'm somewhat under the (possibly false) impression that especially if you can stay near the doctor for longer and if your bone consolidation is not too fast, then it becomes more possible to just slow down the lengthening, which helps alot in the short term in terms of pain/range of motion. Is this impression wrong?
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Ok I think I have found another way to max out how much quad/hamstring stretching you can do in X time
1. Sit on your wheelchair
2. To stretch quads, tuck feet in, still with feet on the ground, and knees forward (can scoot wheelchair wheels forward)-> stretches both leg's quads
3. then, still on the wheelchair, scoot the wheelchair wheels backwards, legs more straightened, heels into the ground, butt still firmly planted in your wheelchair seat, slightly lean forward -> insta stretch of both leg's hamstrings. I don't think its a problem if your hands are on the wheel circles, you can't fall down, the legs hold you up, your butt is still on the wheelchair seat, + you can just roll forward to safety w/ the wheels + you're not really that forward leaning just slightly
And then just alternate between 2 and 3 and you can get in alot of quad and hamstring stretching pretty easily in a small amount of time
I don't know if this is a good idea or not but I'm toying with it in my mind, trying to just get as much quad and hamstring stretch as possible
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Alright I'm gonna use the walker on days it rains, screw it
I know the physical therapists/nurses all prefer you use the crutches over the walker at some point, but for rainy days, screw it
Not gonna use the crutches on raining days, why take that risk?
Why risk falling? If you slip in the rain and fall when using crutches, you basically land on your arms/wrists, you cannot really use your legs to brace the fall as someone warned me
If you use a walker, guess what, its four metal legs always + your two legs, its really hard to ever fall down
I know some nurses think it will be fine on crutches in the rain because the walk from the taxi to the physical therapy center is relatively short----but what exactly do you gain for that risk? Like literally the benefit is only a few more minutes of crutches practice instead of walker practice, that's it. (also the pavement around there is awful, uneven, cracked). Why use the crutches outside in the rain when I can, at any time, do indoor crutches walking practice whenever I want by the front desk hotel workers near people who can help me?
I'll take the scolding by the physical therapists for using the walker on raining days, I'm using the walker on raining days anyway, they can bite me
I'll check the weather the morning right before physical therapy- if there is significant chance of rain, I'm taking the walker, not the crutches to physical therapy
Why not use the wheelchair on rainy days? Well the thing is that there is not always a gentle slope up to the pavement of the physical therapy center depending on where the cars are parked. It is probably workable if I just ask the taxi driver to get me up to the sidewalk but then the physical therapists will be even more pissed to see me on a wheelchair as opposed to a walker
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how are you ? it seems Dr. G has a lot of patients nowadays. is this correct or is just my perception due to the increase in forum diaries.
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how are you ? it seems Dr. G has a lot of patients nowadays. is this correct or is just my perception due to the increase in forum diaries.
There's like 5 new Dr. G patients in this hotel (Montaza) including myself that weren't here in September 1st
It feels like there are new patients every 2 weeks or so, I might be wrong but it feels that way
I feel like he's super busy with new patients and this like doesn't even include his UK office
What are your thoughts on Novotel vs Montaza hotel for internal tibias in Athens? I'm still thinking about this, kinda wish Montaza had better fruit selection for their breakfast buffet and more desk space
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Alright so I think right now actually to get in alot of stretching there's this simpler method:
Sit at edge of bed, rotate between these three stretches:
1. Lie on back, pull one knee to chest -> hip flexor stretch on other leg
2. Sit upright, knees forward, heels in -> stretches both legs for quads
3. Sit upright, heels of feet into ground, lean forward -> stretches both hamstrings
I am willing to bet that your hamstrings/quads/hip flexors will be bigger problems than your IT band/adductors but evidently that's not always the case, I've bumped into one person who had alot of problems with IT band (but I'm confused by how that works, I don't have problems w/ the IT band itself after the IT band release, just the nerves that are stretched during the IT band stretches)
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There's like 5 new Dr. G patients in this hotel (Montaza) including myself that weren't here in September 1st
It feels like there are new patients every 2 weeks or so, I might be wrong but it feels that way
I feel like he's super busy with new patients and this like doesn't even include his UK office
What are your thoughts on Novotel vs Montaza hotel for internal tibias in Athens? I'm still thinking about this, kinda wish Montaza had better fruit selection for their breakfast buffet and more desk space
thanks for the info!
about the hotels, sorry, i have no opinion. only the patients in athens can answer this. if you are not liking or if you are not comfortable where you're staying then the obvious choice would be to move, yes?
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So far in Montaza's hotel food:
I haven't had much luck w/ the Greek dishes, I think my body isn't liking the kind of faintly sweet almost cinnamon like flavor in alot of meat/pasta dishes. That and the yogurt/cheese of certain sauces or bases can be very hit or miss for me, I guess I probably should have predicted this, maybe its common for mediterranean food
Think I'll just stick to foods that are closer to American dishes that I have a better idea of, less of a dice roll. I will say that I think their most expensive pizza dish (like 9-10 euros or something, has tomato, feta cheese, some meat on it, mushrooms) quite filling and large, I feel like it lasts two meals easily so it might actually be the most cost effective option even better than the burger, which they bumped up the price to 7.50 euros for
I know one patient who is concerned about not getting that much protein from dishes- > I don't think there is really a cost effective way to get protein except the breakfast eggs. Though I sort of wonder if a protein powder might actually be a good idea so I just don't have to think about that on a day to day basis and can just enjoy my carbs in peace
Then again, like do we really need that much protein? None of us here are that big or muscular, I feel like just even a modest amount of animal protein has a good effect and then you also get some in the milk and smaller amounts in other foods ..
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So I think the main thing now stopping me from buying a protein powder is I will go search it on amazon and be like "what is all of this stuff, like all these big letters, colors in the advertising, chemicals they put in them, will all these chemicals cause weird cross reaction with any medications I'm taking or have weird effects w/ leg lengthening? Do I even want to find out? "
https://www.amazon.de/s?k=protein+pill&crid=1DF1AV3M424QO&sprefix=protein+pil%2Caps%2C151&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
And I keep going back to the same thought "eh fk it, I eat alot of eggs for breakfast, like do I really need that much protein? I eat some animal protein in each meal, is that not enough?"
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Just buy a normal protein powder.....
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Do you remember how long the doctor said it would take to walk without crutches once you stop lengthening? And in your experience how long do you think it would take to return to what looks like a "normal" gait?
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Do you remember how long the doctor said it would take to walk without crutches once you stop lengthening? And in your experience how long do you think it would take to return to what looks like a "normal" gait?
my vague memory, could be wrong:
for gnail:
3 month mark after surgery (shortly after stopping lengthening) -> wide stance penguin walk possible, head elevation changes as do this, uncomfortable?
5-6 month after surgery -> closer to normal walking (so i guess like 2-3 months after stop lengthening) ?
Any veteran wanna chime in? Is my memory wrong?
what questions do you think are best to ask novotel? thinking of doing novotel internal tibias. last time for montaza I regret not asking them the size of the TV before I brought my HDMI cable
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Just buy a normal protein powder.....
Shrug
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Just buy a normal protein powder.....
https://www.amazon.de/s?k=protein+pill&crid=1DF1AV3M424QO&sprefix=protein+pil%2Caps%2C151&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
Which of these looks normal to you?
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thinking the easiest way to start a hamstring stretch from sitting position is:
cross legs, put one leg on top of the other, start leaning forward slightly
requires a bit less leaning forward than two legged stretches
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Have you ordered any groceries to Montaza yet?
Also, just curious where you stayed in Greece prior to your surgery? Montaza or somewhere else?
what questions do you think are best to ask novotel? thinking of doing novotel internal tibias. last time for montaza I regret not asking them the size of the TV before I brought my HDMI cable
Maybe ask them if you can order groceries and takeaway, as well as if any rooms have a bath
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I stayed in Montaza the days before the surgery, there might be cheaper options tbh
have not ordered groceries out of laziness, not sure what I'd get though if I did (maybe ramen? bananas? dunno what would be good that I can't get already that would make the delivery fee worth it, any ideas?)
glad I don't have to hop with the walker anymore they said, can use the walker or crutches and walk more normally (still not normal yet). I hated hopping with the walker, it was hand pain
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I stayed in Montaza the days before the surgery, there might be cheaper options tbh
have not ordered groceries out of laziness, not sure what I'd get though if I did (maybe ramen? bananas? dunno what would be good that I can't get already that would make the delivery fee worth it, any ideas?)
glad I don't have to hop with the walker anymore they said, can use the walker or crutches and walk more normally (still not normal yet). I hated hopping with the walker, it was hand pain
Do they sell protein powder at local grocery shops?
Glad you can just use crutches now! That must be a relief. Are you still using the walker in the shower?
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what questions do you think are best to ask novotel? thinking of doing novotel internal tibias.
as a current patient, you should know best the answer to this question. just take into account the fact that internal tibia (PRECICE) would mean wheelchair until the end! what are YOUR current needs? what things did you overlook before and are only realizing now that youre staying in montaza? wheelchair-specific questions. those might be the best things to ask novotel or any other hotel you wish to move to!
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as a current patient, you should know best the answer to this question. just take into account the fact that internal tibia (PRECICE) would mean wheelchair until the end! what are YOUR current needs? what things did you overlook before and are only realizing now that youre staying in montaza? wheelchair-specific questions. those might be the best things to ask novotel or any other hotel you wish to move to!
dunno
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looking through some novotel reviews, not completely sure this is the right one
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g189400-d206776-Reviews-Novotel_Athenes-Athens_Attica.html
Quotes:
We always stay in Accor hotels and unfortunately Novotel Athens has been very disappointing. The pillows are so old and grose and it feels dirty. Very outdated inside and in need of renovation. Sheets have holes in them! And the restaurant food was taken straight from the freezer to the deep fryer and I even saw the ‘chef’ smoking in the kitchen while he was cooking! Arrive average as well. Such a shame as the view from level 7 bar is amazing. Surely Novotel can do better.
As a typical Novotel hotel, the property was extraordinary, staff polite and helpful, room spacious and clean with daily service, regardless of Corona pandemic, but do taking all precautions. The hotel is located 5' from Plaka by taxi (around 4 euros only). Highlight: amazing outdoor swimming pool on the rooftop with great views to the Acropolis. Highly recommended particularly at night.
Cons: the vicinity is a bit dangerous because of numerous immigrants in the whole neighbourhood, so avoid wandering around at night (alone or with valuables at easy sight and access).
Overall, great value for money straight in the city centre and with all great facilities that a Novotel offers.
On arrival taxi told us not to walk out alone as area was not good. Prostitution offering services during day on streets.
Some reception staff require retraining, very unhelpful with poor local knowledge. Rooms very tired and not cleaned properly. Smells stale and of dogs. Rooms very small. Carpets threadbare and dirty. Showers mouldy. Breakfast is worst we have ever had. Hot food was cold every day and tasteless.
Swimming pool only suitable for paddling as only 50cm deep fo middle. You can not swim in this. It is deceiving from the photo. View from top excellent.
Bar man very grumpy and does not like to serve people when you eventually find him. No local restaurants nearby.
This hotel ticked all the boxes for a base in Athens for 4 nights. The room was comfortable and clean with good facilities such as a safe, fridge and tv. The rooftop pool was a wonderful place to chill and take in the views of the acropolis with beer in hand. The staff were very friendly and helpful making checking in and out easy. The breakfast was continental in style with a decent range of food choices to accommodate everyone. My only advice would be not to walk from the hotel towards the acropolis direction as there are some rather unsavoury streets along the way that do not feel safe during the day, let alone at night. Luckily, Larissa metro stop is less than 10 minutes walk, in a much safer route, which links you up with wherever you wish to go.
The hotel is competitively price which is attractive but the walking around area is undesirable with some strange people in the area. The underground car park is a nightmare if you have a SUV or minivan. The pool is packed with small kids. Basically, you get what you pay for.
Awful! Air conditioning in the room not working and no assistance from staff. Even refused to bring ice to the room. Appalling lack of empathy.
Booked this hotel as an Accor Diamond member, Never again.
Nice view from the rooftop, pool small for the size of hotel.
Great hotel, OK city
Pros:
- Rooftop pool
- Staff (Eva front desk, Georgio+Maria+Petrus rooftop bar)
- Lovely, semi-modern rooms+hotel
- Delicious Nespresso in room
- 2 free large mineral waters in room
Cons:
- Far from city center, 10min walk through run down neighborhoods to nearest metro station (buses were on strike our first day)
- Rooms were a bit stinky with mildew smell when key not activated in room
- Very icky smell rising up from toilet
Breakfast was a nice buffet with a good selection. We also paid for dinner which was fine. You ordered off a menu for that which also had a an average selection (pasta, pizza, burger and Greek options). We even arrived late on our first night and they had prepared plates for us as we had missed the dinner service.
My only negative was I wished they’d explained the half board a bit more clearly when we arrived. The staff seemed just as confused as us about it and we were told different information by different people. We did figure it all out in the end though!
The rooftop pool is very nice! Recommend going to watch the sunset and seeing the acropolis lit at night. Only down side is we were told we couldn’t eat there being half board which kind of sucked. We just enjoyed it after dinner with drinks. It does get busy and there are limited pool seats so keep that in mind if you’re after a lounge by the pool.
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Yeah so from the quotes above, it seems like the pool is shallow/filled with kids. The area around it is sketchy (drugs, homeless people). Some room cleanliness issues seem hit or miss. But everyone seems to love the breakfast and the roof top view
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There is a rumor that all the Montaza handicap rooms are near the strip club music (so far has been the case with everyone I talked to) but some people are not so bothered by that noise
This is making me lean even more towards novotel if I do internal tibias one day, I'm just worried about the frequency of nurse visits
Right now I believe there is one internal tibia precise patient at Montaza but he doesn't seem bothered by the strip club noise. I learned that even if you stretch your calves alot before doing tibias, there's a chance your achilles tendon will hurt
When I lived in a Montaza handicap room for around 3 weeks, the strip club noise did wake me up each night and my heart rate would be a bit up from the beat of the music, but somehow I did not mind this alot of nights
Now in a non-handicap room, the strip club music is far enough away it doesn't wake me up. Instead, knee pain wakes me up (I'm doing internal femurs, yes there is even knee pain for alot of internal femur patients evidently). I put ice pads on it when this happens, but I don't know if that is the best response. Someone mentioned the idea that jerking off and ice pads help more for pain than painkillers-> things like ice pads seem like more immediate relief than painkiller pills but I don't know if this is a good idea or a bad idea
I am so glad Dr. Giotikas convinced me to first just do internal gnail, I am really glad I did not do the 4 precise nail option (simultaneous internal precise femur and tibia), don't think I could handle it, I already have trouble with just gnails in my femurs
It is getting cold here in the morning in October in Athens. I think its a good idea to bring some warm fuzzy slippers (might seem crazy in September when its still warm, but eventually it will be good). I'd wear running shoes to PT.
So I guess if I were you, I'd bring three pairs of shoes: 1. regular slippers for warm weather 2. warm fuzzy slippers with friction bottom for practicing walking in the hotel 3. running shoes for the treadmill
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Alright so today I did a transfer into the non-handicap montaza room shower area with crutches and its alot easier than with a walker (walker is a bit bulky, hard to get into the shower area). Crutches are skinnier, its way easier to fit them into the cramped shower area
I feel like the hardest part was getting out of the shower area (cramped, wet floor by the time) and I ended up cheating a bit by using a table just outside the shower to lift myself up
So I think at least for gnail options, a non-handicap montaza room is a good budget option, it seems like everything just becomes really easy once you can use crutches
I'm still thinking about montaza vs novotel for internal tibias, it all depends on how much help it actually needs from the nurses and how often the nurses come
I think it would be different for a second LL though because now I feel I am pretty good at all the transfers (bed to wheelchair, wheelchair to seat, etc) and maybe I wouldn't need as much nurse support. If I fell down I guess I would crawl to my door, knock on it loudly and yell-- or ideally I think if I ever showered in a handicap novotel room during internal tibia I should put my phone in a place that is easy to reach from the ground actually so I can crawl over it and call for help
Its 86 dollars per day in novotel vs about 60 dollars per day in montaza's handicap room so about 1.433 times more expensive. I expect both prices to be more expensive in one year's time from now. Probably more expensive like 1.7 times more expensive at least when considering that novotel has more expensive food.
But on the other hand, novotel's breakfast seems to have a better selection of fruits and foods. And novotel has a gym with a nice bike to use (but screw it I'd probably buy a small pedal machine anyway because its a hassle to get out of the room). Novotel is closer to the PT center which should save money (alot of money in fact if the SUV transportation doesn't go through in the end). And the desk space. And the intangibles like the possibly better mental health from the nicer room/nicer rooftop space. And more desk space at Novotel which seems nice.
I've got to remember to ask the girl (just remembered her name) who has been to both -- to ask her how the internet speed and noise compared, I keep forgetting to ask her questions at PT
We ate some takeout food after PT outside (Montaza disallows outside takeout food for most of the day), we might keep it up until it gets too cold outside
Although the area around novotel is sketchy, I would say the area around montaza is like uh.. its not that sketchy in terms of crime but its a bit worn down and has alot of strip clubs. So I think maybe montaza's area is maybe slightly (???) safer but I think its area is overall worse because of the road noise and closeness to the strip clubs
But mainly the rumor that all the montaza handicap rooms (and lack of evidence against it) are close to the strip club music is pretty damning. But its really hard to give up on Bill's/Evi's frequent montaza hotel visits (reminds you about laundry, helps you with transfers, she has some bandages to put on your cuts) they are really nice to have, I'd really hate to lose those visits idk they just make you feel taken care of and safe -- Kinda wish everyone would go to Novotel and then they'd have to make rounds at Novotel
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alright think I figured out a more efficient way to stretch hamstrings and quads, not sure if this is a good idea or not
those green/turquoise bed back rests on the wall for the beds at Montaza hotel -> lie on back, put your heels on top of those soft turquoise backrests -> hamstring stretch
then let go of that wall mostly, just use wall to hold of the feet a bit, let the feet drop, knees up to ceiling, feet down, lying on back -> quad stretch
And then can just cycle between the two
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Alright heard some more rumors about novotel:
- novotel internet seems fine, you might have to reconnect/re-login every now and then though
- rumor that novotel's handicap room was like 89 euros per day but might be cheaper in the fall compared to the summer, not sure, can't remember might be less than 80 euros at unpopular times of the year
- I heard that because novotel is much larger than montaza, you will get less help from the staff in terms of them coming to your actual room or bringing stuff up to you (you have to come down to the front desk yourself)
- heard that novotel has a ramp so you don't have to use a lifting machine like at Montaza (man every hotel should just have a ramp, I don't understand the logic of having two stairways and one lift instead of one ramp and one stairway, except for really heavy objects)
- the novotel pool being only like 50 cm deep means its not as good for using it to exercise/walk in
some people are not bothered by montaza's strip club night time music but some are, I found that it consistently woke me up at like 2-3am but sometimes I randomly didn't mind
there's also a rumor that there are just not that many handicap rooms at montaza available at any given time and that they are all near the strip club music
If I were you guys, I'd look for a wolt promo code and buy a meal w/ it pretty soon, can get a pretty decent meal cheaply like that
I think montaza is the better option for gnails, its cheaper, you don't need a handicap room after maybe 3 weeks, and the second stairway to the entrance (on the right) has such a gradual slope that you can honestly get inside with a walker or crutches easily except maybe during heavy rain
if the SUV transportation goes through then the transportation costs for both options will be pretty close (both small). But if the SUV transportation pilot program fails, then I think novotel's costs will be alot closer to montaza's than people realize for handicap rooms
There's also a rumor that it takes a long time to find a good airbnb/apartment location if you want to go that route
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hi speeddialer, thanks for sharing the details! i am curious where are these 'rumors' coming from exactly ?
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hi speeddialer, thanks for sharing the details! i am curious where are these 'rumors' coming from exactly ?
talking to other patients
rumor because I will sometime hear it said like "I heard that X" so I'm hesitant to call of these things hard truths but I still find them useful
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deleted accidental post
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The montaza hotel shower- I found that if I keep it on hottest mode (which is not that hot) for like 10-15 minutes eventually it becomes slightly warmer which is great because it becomes warm enough to feel good against the thighs
I feel like if I can lose 12 kg I should be able to be in the montaza non handicap room even with internal tibias like one patient is doing now, especially if my tibias can fit the extra big precise 2 nail
But on the other hand, I might just end up still going to novotel's handicap room for the safety
But on the other hand, I still think novotel would have fewer nurse visits but maybe that will change in one year as novotel gets more popular
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how many nurses does the doctor have to visit each hotel?
and is losing 12 KG during lengthening possible really? i have not heard of patients lose that much weight!
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how many nurses does the doctor have to visit each hotel?
and is losing 12 KG during lengthening possible really? i have not heard of patients lose that much weight!
I don't know how many nurses per hotel. I know in total there are 2 who are closely associated w/ the doctor
I mean losing 12 kg within 1.5 years before I do internal tibias
Sorry I think maybe my diary is too confusing based on the questions I've seen and its time to end it soon
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I enjoy reading your diary and I think it's helpful for prospective patients. I think you should keep it.
Btw have you started using the new SUV service yet?
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I'm ending the diary because I think the diary has just been confusing/diary has been annoying to some people based on the responses
Everyone reading this, PM me if you are already scheduled and have paid to go to Athens or Baltimore for LL, we might see each other someday
Good luck everyone
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I'm ending the diary because I think the diary has just been confusing/diary has been annoying to some people based on the responses
Everyone reading this, PM me if you are already scheduled and have paid to go to Athens or Baltimore for LL, we might see each other someday
Good luck everyone
Please don't! :-[
You're doing great and if people are confused/annoyed they simply shouldn't bother reading it. Don't pay them any attention!