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[SpeedDialer]

Giotikas is pronounced "ya-tee-kahss"

nai (neh) means yes in greek. oh-hee means no.

will have IV needle in left hand early on, but the pain of it dulls over time

The road outside Montaza Hotel (one place where he sends nurses) is narrow. parked cars make it harder to see fast bikers driving by but you can hear them, prolly don't listen to music on road

peeing in hospital bed:

when lying in bed, angle penis down into bottle (awkward but better than the pee falling back at you)

first day after surgery need more effort/force to get pee out

When done: Pull penis out of pee bottle w/ a tissue, catches misc pee

asking hospital staff to empty pee bottle whenever they come is useful

good to poo before go to hospital + before see doctor if can (pooing in bed in hospital = nightmare, you just get a pail/pan/paper, don't think they have any other options until they teach you how to get to toilet)

recommend not drink the tea or coffee they give till they teach you how to go to toilet, hot liquids can trigger urge to poo

m1 macbook air/m2 macbook air = awesome for this, can lift one handed (useful w/ IV  needle in one hand), long battery life, doesn't get hot. Lighter + brighter=better

sleep mask/earplugs seem to help, the hospital + hotel both near car noise

accidental clicks tend to happen when legs not straight or transferring in/out of bed or wheelchair

lip balm/chapstick, toothbrush, floss, cleaning wipes, earbuds, phone, laptop helpful to have in easy to reach backpack pocket during hospital stay, still ask for help reaching them tho

for shorts, prolly want them to be very very loose and way oversized (easier to get on/off+stretch) but have ability to tighten at top w/ drawstring to prevent it from falling down. don't put phone in loose pocket though.

hospital/hotel plain white greek yogurt very plain and almost cheese-tasting-> ask for jam/honey to add if want sweeter

look for a pack of salt w/ hospital meal, it is there somewhere, salt good w/ bread and olive oil (ask)

heavy hiccuping after surgery -> you can try drinking water, but might not help, but will cause you to pee more -> hassle in hospital bed

montaza hotel price includes breakfast buffet -> has watermelon, tomatoes, eggs, sausage, pastries, bread, orange juice, milk, plenty of calories but I'm not sure best way to fill in nutrients that this would not cover, any ideas?

first day after surgery, legs and butt touching bed hard to move, gets hot and itchy, asking them to turn on air conditioner to somewhat cool helps

first day at montaza -> check shower nozzle holder, hotel room phone, make sure work, a bit old, ask for help if doesn't work

economy supermarket nearby montaza hotel (size of 7-11 but with some produce) -> not so useful after surgery, b/c of walking distance

wolf/efood for misc groceries

Airport currency exchange = massive ripoff (lose about 25%), I think there is an ATM near montaza though, maybe get schwab debit card for ATM fee reimbursement

Have not had to use cash yet though

exoficcio black boxer briefs (forgot exact name) have been pretty good for this, light, loose, breathable, can reasonably be confused as shorts, but has useful hole for peeing

typing w/ google translate to Greek on laptop useful even for nurses who speak some limited English, its just easier for everyone for them to read greek, make the font big

biggest cost you might not have thought of? taxi. Its like 15 euros to go from montaza hotel to hospital one way

both uber and beat work, they just route you to taxis tho. And remember cost of taxi to physical therapy.

push button in uber/beat apps to share location = less headache

montaza hotel room table very small, so don't need to bring much on top of desk stuff

montaza hotel side bed table very very small but has second layer to put stuff in, don't bring too much

montaza hotel = get breakfast, help moving stuff, phone to call for help, don't have to fix things, has nurses sent there, toilet paper, desk ppl speak English, its easier for beginner travelers

to prevent bluetooth headset from disconnecting from inactivity on laptop/making annoying "disconnected sound" -> download a 24 hour long no sound black video, have it playing on laptop

hospital bed has nurse button (looks like woman in red)

def get whatsapp before trip


Anyone have any other tips or want to correct me on nething?

IV needle in my left hand, choppy sentences srry

[SpeedDialer]

what else:

as of sept 2022, in athens mediterraneo hospital new entrance is down a ramp near garage

as of sept 2022, i went to floor A to find the right place

[Taweel]

Giotikas is pronounced "ya-tee-kahss"

nai (neh) means yes in greek. oh-hee means no.

will have IV needle in left hand early on, but the pain of it dulls over time

The road outside Montaza Hotel (one place where he sends nurses) is narrow. parked cars make it harder to see fast bikers driving by but you can hear them, prolly don't listen to music on road

peeing in hospital bed:
Dr giotkas has a full package ,post operation?I mean accomadation,eating,etc…how much it’s cost?

when lying in bed, angle penis down into bottle (awkward but better than the pee falling back at you)

first day after surgery need more effort/force to get pee out

When done: Pull penis out of pee bottle w/ a tissue, catches misc pee

asking hospital staff to empty pee bottle whenever they come is useful

good to poo before go to hospital + before see doctor if can (pooing in bed in hospital = nightmare, you just get a pail/pan/paper, don't think they have any other options until they teach you how to get to toilet)

recommend not drink the tea or coffee they give till they teach you how to go to toilet, hot liquids can trigger urge to poo

m1 macbook air/m2 macbook air = awesome for this, can lift one handed (useful w/ IV  needle in one hand), long battery life, doesn't get hot. Lighter + brighter=better

sleep mask/earplugs seem to help, the hospital + hotel both near car noise

accidental clicks tend to happen when legs not straight or transferring in/out of bed or wheelchair

lip balm/chapstick, toothbrush, floss, cleaning wipes, earbuds, phone, laptop helpful to have in easy to reach backpack pocket during hospital stay, still ask for help reaching them tho

for shorts, prolly want them to be very very loose and way oversized (easier to get on/off+stretch) but have ability to tighten at top w/ drawstring to prevent it from falling down. don't put phone in loose pocket though.

hospital/hotel plain white greek yogurt very plain and almost cheese-tasting-> ask for jam/honey to add if want sweeter

look for a pack of salt w/ hospital meal, it is there somewhere, salt good w/ bread and olive oil (ask)

heavy hiccuping after surgery -> you can try drinking water, but might not help, but will cause you to pee more -> hassle in hospital bed

montaza hotel price includes breakfast buffet -> has watermelon, tomatoes, eggs, sausage, pastries, bread, orange juice, milk, plenty of calories but I'm not sure best way to fill in nutrients that this would not cover, any ideas?

first day after surgery, legs and butt touching bed hard to move, gets hot and itchy, asking them to turn on air conditioner to somewhat cool helps

first day at montaza -> check shower nozzle holder, hotel room phone, make sure work, a bit old, ask for help if doesn't work

economy supermarket nearby montaza hotel (size of 7-11 but with some produce) -> not so useful after surgery, b/c of walking distance

wolf/efood for misc groceries

Airport currency exchange = massive ripoff (lose about 25%), I think there is an ATM near montaza though, maybe get schwab debit card for ATM fee reimbursement

Have not had to use cash yet though

exoficcio black boxer briefs (forgot exact name) have been pretty good for this, light, loose, breathable, can reasonably be confused as shorts, but has useful hole for peeing

typing w/ google translate to Greek on laptop useful even for nurses who speak some limited English, its just easier for everyone for them to read greek, make the font big

biggest cost you might not have thought of? taxi. Its like 15 euros to go from montaza hotel to hospital one way

both uber and beat work, they just route you to taxis tho. And remember cost of taxi to physical therapy.

push button in uber/beat apps to share location = less headache

montaza hotel room table very small, so don't need to bring much on top of desk stuff

montaza hotel side bed table very very small but has second layer to put stuff in, don't bring too much

montaza hotel = get breakfast, help moving stuff, phone to call for help, don't have to fix things, has nurses sent there, toilet paper, desk ppl speak English, its easier for beginner travelers

to prevent bluetooth headset from disconnecting from inactivity on laptop/making annoying "disconnected sound" -> download a 24 hour long no sound black video, have it playing on laptop

hospital bed has nurse button (looks like woman in red)

def get whatsapp before trip


Anyone have any other tips or want to correct me on nething?

IV needle in my left hand, choppy sentences srry

[SpeedDialer]

?

[SpeedDialer]

front of thigh, sides of thigh, hip flexors very sore, making it difficult to do the stretches, wonder if the nurses will help me

biceps and frontal delts actually sore, probably from using them to hold my leg up for stretching + walker use + wheelchair use, not sure

lats slightly sore, prolly from walker use (effectively you are doing static dips)

wonder what food to order when get back to the hotel in a few days, prolly some veggies that are easy to prepare/eat. and also an ice cream bar.

there are clicks from the gnail device itself (a bit lower pitched but louder)

And there are what I perceive to be body clicks (from someone's actual knees or hip but not the device). appear to be quieter/higher pitched. fellow LLer at the hospital also commented on this

thinking about mordin solus from mass effect w/ this sentence structure
"I made him a steak! Focused on big picture. Too many variables"

[OzBoy39]

Hi SpeedDialer

Good good diary. Love the details. I can confirm pretty much most of the sensations you described.

Keep going and stay mentally strong.
And congrats on the surgery. Worst is behind you

[SpeedDialer]

Hi SpeedDialer

Good good diary. Love the details. I can confirm pretty much most of the sensations you described.

Keep going and stay mentally strong.
And congrats on the surgery. Worst is behind you

Thanks!!!

[SpeedDialer]

Getting on and off toilet still difficult, needed alot of help

There is a certain feeling of being anchored that is associated with being unable to get up and do some things by yourself

once I'm on a laptop,  I feel mostly free/fast moving again, except for the IV left hand needle in me

in terms of pain, compared to LL, I actually thought getting a hair transplant (with numbing but no anesthesia, still awake) was more temporarily painful due to being awake during the hair transplant surgery (feeling as if being stabbed in forehead many times)

Feeling of clicking hard to describe. Not painful if muscles relaxed but feels like a deep, invasive, significant feeling which for some reason can cause the mind worry even though I know I came here to do this to click and grow taller

The moments before the click are scarier than the actual click. The stretching feeling/awkward leg positioning as you configure your legs/rotate your thighs and not knowing when the click will happen

[SpeedDialer]

There is something I am very curious about

When I sit upright on bed and rotate my heels upwards/inwards slightly even just 1 cm, I get the sensation as if the bed has moveable parts that are rotating upward with the feet

However, when I touch my hand to that side of the bed I know that clearly the bed on its center line on that end doesn't have flaps rotating upwards and inwards. The special hospital bed can only bend and flatten w/ the mechanical parts under it but it doesn't rotate upwards and inwards into itself.

Which means that somehow the sensation I'm feeling must be due to my legs themselves post surgery

And maybe unrelated to that--- it is odd the first few nights that when I try to sleep, my brain appears to be interpreting the overall pain/soreness of my legs as movement/my legs being moved. And so in my dreams, my whole body and especially thighs sort of move in waves or undulate or move in ways that roughly correspond to the locations of the soreness

this mostly subsided after the first night

overall, it is interesting how the pain/sensation of the thighs is causing the brain to interpret movement/spatial movement differently despite me knowing logically that my legs are mostly still/only moving slightly

[SpeedDialer]

More on the montaza hotel

(I'm not there now b/c in hospital, but will go back to hotel soon)

Sometimes at the foot of the bed, the teal colored stands that the bed lays on can stick out/not quite trip you but can hurt if bumped into it. Careful of knees/legs when walking around the foot of the bed. Prolly I will ask for help to push that in

The TV of the hotel (not hospital) is small and high on the wall in the corner of the room. Didn't see HDMI but maybe has VGA. Smallness and corner positioning of it mean you can basically ignore it/not use it/will prolly be much worse than just your laptop

Athens so far has had an interesting feeling. Lots of graffiti, older looking buildings, some machines in the hospital remind me the machines in the late 1990s or early 2000s that I saw in my dad's doctor's office when I was a kid. Sometimes feels like going into a time machine.

Blotches/bits of the city that look very clean and new, but most of the area I've seen around Montaza hotel evokes this feeling of buildings/pavement/concrete/outdoor stairs being heavily worn down by time, graffiti, often empty-ish feeling alleyways, yet still have some people going about their days and bringing a bit of life to it

The multiple strip clubs near montaza are a thing, though I've somehow been lucky to not have been bothered yet by their noise. Surprised to see one of them with pictures of anime girls on its front door despite the place probably having nothing anime-related inside. Plenty of smoking and ash trays around.

Sometimes see young women in the hotel who, based on how they are dressed, I surmised may be somehow associated with the multiple nearby strip clubs. Adds character and color to the experience

Montaza's rooms and spaces may seem small but the essentials are all crammed in there, it still works out. No microwave but there is something to heat water

But I also see some more touristy types from other places (an older lady from the USA (comforting to hear a familiar accent), some Spanish speakers in a group) at Montaza

I know people recommend laptop bed stands. But honestly w/ a very thin and light laptop like the macbook air I sort of prefer just having alot of little pillows around (I had to order and buy them tho) to rest the laptop on. softer, less trapping, easier to get off you

Dr. Giotikas looks to be about 6'2 tall

The two male and female nurses who work most closely with him appear to be about 6 feet and 5'7 respectively

[SpeedDialer]

When I'm not sure how to move my body to get into a certain position, I've kept defaulting to putting both hands under one knee. I'm not quite sure the optimal way to move the legs/body yet to move in bed, but putting two hands under one knee -> gives a bit of control of where at least one leg will go. Wonder if the nurses have any advice on this 

pushing with triceps into the bed to scooch over slowly also helpful

did not realize how helpless someone ends up without full use of their thigh muscles, like even in bed I feel alot more restricted in my movement. legs are just alot stronger than your arms ---and when you can't use the legs effectively, it just becomes alot more evident how reliant we are on legs even in situations you don't normally associate with legs (like being on a bed)

Sometimes I wonder 'damn, I wonder if this would be easier if I was only 130 pounds back in freshman year of college over 10 years ago' instead of more like 170 now

[thankscience]

Thanks so much for the tips! And good luck with your lengthening journey!

I have a couple of questions:
-Did you get given the option of Novotel also when booking for a hotel? I read in Ozboy's diary Dr G may be starting to offer this hotel to patients.
-Did you get a catheter for the surgery?
-Which weight-bearing nail did you get (e.g. the 95kg ones or another)?
-What is your starting height?
-What is your target height?
-How many days will you stay at the hospital?
-Did you stay at Montaza the day before the surgery too?
-Do you have any money saving tips?

[SpeedDialer]

Thanks so much for the tips! And good luck with your lengthening journey!

I have a couple of questions:
-Did you get given the option of Novotel also when booking for a hotel? I read in Ozboy's diary Dr G may be starting to offer this hotel to patients.

I admit to being completely out of the loop. Ozboy wanna comment on this? I'm a bit in the dark on this 

-Did you get a catheter for the surgery?

No. I heard that a male precise patient ended up using one though

-Which weight-bearing nail did you get (e.g. the 95kg ones or another)?

I apologize, I prolly should know this but I don't. Vaguely remember it might have been 13 mm gnail or something but I am aware this might not be answering your question

-What is your starting height?

I'll keep it a secret in case someone I know goes on this forum, but its less than 170 cm starting height

-What is your target height?

Target is 6-7 cm more than now

-How many days will you stay at the hospital?

3, and I think that is standard, ne1 know if its different for precise or different for tibias? I used gnail femurs

-Did you stay at Montaza the day before the surgery too?

I did just in case my flight got cancelled-- so I came very early and took a few days to scope out the area. I think technically, if you time things perfectly w/ the flight and meeting, it is possible to 1. arrive 2. go to the pre-operation appointment that same day day 3. spend one night in montaza 4. surgery 5. hospital 6. back to montaza

So if you trust your flight will be on time, its possible to only have 1 night at montaza before the surgery

-Do you have any money saving tips?

I apologize that my advice will be a bit bland and a bit too USA focused. Series i bonds if you're in the USA for certain. There are some other miscellaneous high yield savings accounts (DCU gives 6% on 1000 USD, Affinity credit union gives 3.5% on 5000, Current gives 4% on 3*2000=6000 USD), bask bank (rumor is if you connect certain bank accounts to it, it causes freezings/errors though) offering about 2.5% now, but admittedly their websites are a bit frustrating to sign up for (some old, some have weird hoops to jump through like current have to setup three 2000 USD pods). Prize Pool savings account might technically be worth looking into (lower APY than bask bank for many but gives randomly generated awards that sometimes offset this). The signups for all of these are frustrating enough that it may be better to spend that time working/studying but these are options. I admit to being too noob with stocks/crypto to venture into them.

testing if answers above went through

[SpeedDialer]

-Do you have any money saving tips?

I forgot other misc savings accounts but I believe discover, chase, TD bank, maybe some others have some signup bonuses which, depending on your work, may not be worth your time. I believe that fidelity has a signup bonus w/ its cash management account and also an account geared towards young people called fidelity bloom, and with this last one I vaguely remember there is some way to get 5% on 300 USD (so 15 bucks a year) if you keep on putting 300 USD into fidelity bloom every year

I think wealthfront has a 2% checking account too

There are no-penalty CD's from savebetter or other companies that might be worth looking into but I would not be keen to use them since the fed will probably increase interest rates a bit more

Sadly, the thing all these have in common is that the APY is just very very low (except perhaps series i bonds) but its better I think than having money in crypto or stocks and then them crashing right before you are about to do LL

I'd avoid crypto lending based on the disasters of terra luna, celsius, voyager, etc. I forget if FTX even allows non-accredited investors to get 8% yield anymore

[thankscience]

Thanks so much! Your answers are very helpful 

How is your pain level now?

[SpeedDialer]

Pain when not moving is close to 0 or 1 out of 10. But when do stretches its maybe 7 out of 10

Having difficulty getting good range of motion on stretches by myself, looking forward to doing them w/ nurses/physical therapists

transferring on/off beds and on/off toilet still very difficult, need help

keep getting accidental clicks when transfer on/off bed, gotta figure out better technique

[thankscience]

Do you have to count the accidental clicks to know how much you have accidentally lengthened?

[SpeedDialer]

Do you have to count the accidental clicks to know how much you have accidentally lengthened?

I've been told to not worry about them for now, any LL veterans out there wanna point out anything?

[SpeedDialer]

Something about the hospital beds- sometimes after some nurses do some work in the room, they will unfortunately move the object with the 'call for help' nurse button to a place hard for you to reach

What I've found is that to reach that nurse button, I set my bed to be flat, scooch back a bit, and then there was this white wire hanging down. I was able to just reach it and that white wire led me to the object with the 'call for a nurse' button

[SpeedDialer]

I admit that despite doing LL in Athens now, I have not been very disciplined w/ making a budget and am curious what you guys would put as cost estimates for this

I'd haphazard a guess of 60k USD, but maybe that's a lowball estimate

The recent strength of the USD might help

I am not sure if montaza is actually more expensive than apartment if you add in all the variables- b/c it includes breakfast, toilet paper, help from the hotel staff, there's the elevator and lift for the wheelchair, you don't have to fix stuff, you don't have to think about utilities, it has some handicap rooms. You can go downstairs (or actually probably its better to just take some pictures of their menus, then call the front desk with your phone) and pay 12 euros later for a full meal if breakfast buffet wasn't enough. Anyone wanna chime in?

[thankscience]

I admit that despite doing LL in Athens now, I have not been very disciplined w/ making a budget and am curious what you guys would put as cost estimates for this

I'd haphazard a guess of 60k USD, but maybe that's a lowball estimate

The recent strength of the USD might help

I am not sure if montaza is actually more expensive than apartment if you add in all the variables- b/c it includes breakfast, toilet paper, help from the hotel staff, there's the elevator and lift for the wheelchair, you don't have to fix stuff, you don't have to think about utilities, it has some handicap rooms. You can go downstairs (or actually probably its better to just take some pictures of their menus, then call the front desk with your phone) and pay 12 euros later for a full meal if breakfast buffet wasn't enough. Anyone wanna chime in?

That's roughly how much I am estimating, but I would be interested in your breakdown of expenses once you start doing grocery shopping, trips to PT centre, etc.

Will you be staying in a handicap room?

[SpeedDialer]

I'm staying in the handicap room for about 2 weeks

I'm still theory crafting the best way to transfer on/off of beds and taxi seats. Accidental clicks have been a big problem- its not that painful but its jarring/feels very wrong and stressful

Currently I think the main thing is you want to slide your butt (by using your triceps/lats to scooch over) and not want to bend legs first. If bend leg first then the legs get rotated relative to your body -> accidental click, feels a bit stressful when it happens

Unfortunately its often to hard to scooch to the right place and I'm still working out the best technique to transfer off of beds without causing an accidental click

I think maybe I will try leading with my butt but am not sure

Any veterans want to chime in?

[SpeedDialer]

Had two accidental clicks when trying to transfer from bed to walker today.

The rotating of the legs/unstable feeling is a bit scary when using them to stand up (when transferring from bed to walker)

Once I'm standing up straight with the walker, its alot less scary because I know I can hop with the walker and get to the wheelchair if need be

The sink is very close to the toilet, which I think may make it awkward to transfer from walker to toilet and need to work that out

[SpeedDialer]

The act of getting shorts on is a bit annoying, I think I might look into a button style shorts like these post surgery shorts https://www.amazon.com/Post-Surgery-Shorts-Womens-Unisex/dp/B00EDH6N16/ref=sr_1_11?crid=2VI36CLVJ5W42&keywords=handicap+shorts&qid=1663371128&sprefix=handi%2Caps%2C930&sr=8-11

[SpeedDialer]

If I was going to do it again, I might get these post surgery shirt and shirts. Not really needed if your clothes are loose enough but probably easier:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Post-Surgery-Shorts-Tearaway-Unisex/dp/B00EDH6NIY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=MT83ZQDMCPNU&keywords=post%2Bsurgery%2Babrei%C3%9Fbare%2Bshorts&qid=1663375412&sprefix=post%2Bsurgery%2Btearaway%2Bshorts%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1&th=1&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EDH5X9Y/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A36VPWXO1LYBY7&psc=1

Sadly amazon.de doesn't ship these specific items to Greece

the shirt is less helpful since once your IV needles are removed, its easy to put on/take off shirts

[SpeedDialer]

The grabber tool-> the handle end of it is like almost as useful as the pincer end of it

The handle end is bigger/harder can be used to push/move objects a few feet away + push the slippers onto your fight after they are loosely put on

Can also be used to lift bags that are some distance away

[SpeedDialer]

The handicap rooms of Montaza- I believe they have 3 beds, at least mine does. which is actually useful for just using two beds to put stuff on so you don't have to bend down to the ground

the TV in this handicap room is in a much nicer location relative to the bed, I might use it later if my legs get better and if has an HDMI port (I think it doesn't though, think it only has VGA)

the exercise bike I got looks daunting. Looks like an accident waiting to happen if I make an error when trying to dismount it, currently only planning on using it if a nurse is around

When I'm on my wheelchair with my grabber, I feel very free

Currently when I want to move the wheelchair but carry an object, I shove that object into my shirt which acts as makeshift net to hold the object in (wonder if there is a better less silly way?). I attached a small backpack to the wheelchair which should also help for smaller objects.

Getting on the bed is somewhat stressful, but putting some pillows on it to land on seems to help (less of a drop down)

If I can improve my technique for getting on the toilet, it will decrease my fears alot

[thankscience]

The side button shorts are a good idea - I'm going to get some I think.

Does the hospital provide you with the grabber tool and exercise bike in your hotel room or did you have to pay for that yourself?

[SpeedDialer]

I had to buy the grabber, thank god it came the day I needed it

May be worth to buy a foldable one before you come just to ensure you have it

Today was rough, couldn't do a wheelchair -> walker transfer, several hours later a nurse came and saved me

Gonna take more painkillers to hopefully prevent this from happening again

The thighs swelling alot is painful on a wheelchair, the space is tight

It is hard to judge whether I need to take a tramadol pill in order to do wheelchair/bed transfers. I guess I could try to gauge the pain from stretches first to determine whether I want to take a tramadol pill that day

[SpeedDialer]

I'd recommend having both the phone, the grabber, and the tramadol pills (says Tramal on the box, maybe the brand name) all within easy reach from both your wheelchair and the place you sleep.

Pain from attempting to stand up from the wheelchair made the transfer difficult/resulted in me being stranded on the wheelchair. So having both the phone to ask for help and a tramadol pills within reach at all times give you ways to deal with this.

In the mornings, I'm very stiff. Takes me a long time with small movements to be able to do the stretches and still takes me a long time to do the transfers (taking me multiple attempts)

[SpeedDialer]

If all of your phone, tablet, and laptop all just use USB C charging cables and your cables are long, it is helpful. Then you don't have as many wires around, can just use one or two long USB C cables and it will work for everything which is convenient for the very small bed desk and other desk in the room. Hope the world just moves to USB C (and adds magsafe to it) so we can be done w/ cable mess