Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: ChrisIsaak on October 03, 2013, 08:43:37 PM
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I arrived in Milan Malpensa Airport at 15:00 today. I took the "Malpensa Shuttle" Bus to Stazione Centrale, the downtown city center. The last stop is Stazione Centrale. From there, I had to take the subway to Loreto, only two stops ahead. This is where I'm staying tonight. Tomorrow morning I have Cybex testing at the Isokinetic Center, and will be meeting Dr. Guichet. More to follow soon. Stay tuned.
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Total Awesomeness. Looking very forward to hear about your experience.
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Exciting :D Maybe take some pictures of the place? Look forward to your updates.
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Cant wait. Dont forget to upload those photos !!!! :)
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Just got back. I'm very tired. I'll write it all tonight, guys. I also have a surprise photo for you. It's going to make you laugh. (It's the proof that God exists, and has a terrible sense of humor). :D
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For some reason I feel like a fat kid waiting outaide of the candy shop waiting for the doors to open. :D
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For some reason I feel like a fat kid waiting outaide of the candy shop waiting for the doors to open. :D
Lol.. Saw some of those at McDonalds today :D
* For those who don't know, Italians tend to close their restaurants around the evening.. So I couldn't find anywhere else quickly to eat. Nevertheless, I'll be off to a nice restaurant once I finish writing this. Hopefully, it won't take too long.
Okay.. Where do we begin? I woke up at 8:30 AM today, had an Italian breakfast (toasted bread, butter and jam, pastries, coffee), prepared my bag, filled it with sports clothes to be worn at the Isokinetic Center, then left. I made a mistake of not having enough Euros when I came to Italy, and had to go to Stazione Centrale (Central Station) for currency exchange. They're on the second floor. The consultation with Dr. Guichet is €300, and you have to pay in cash. The initial tests in the Isokinetic Center cost €150, but you can pay it with a MasterCard.
My appointment at the Isokinetic was at 11.30 AM, but I took the Subway station instead of taxi, and was half an hour late. Fortunately, it wasn't a problem. To avoid others facing a similar tardiness problem, here's a photo of Via Tommaso Salvini. You should enter this beautiful arch, and continue to walk to the right side. Ask for Via Vivaio to find the Isokinetic Center ("Come posso andare a .......... (insert location)). http://cubeupload.com/im/qjSOSj.jpg
Take the red metro line to Palestro. That's the closest station to the Isokinetic Center. http://postimg.org/image/gbho5ks8h/
The test at the Isokinetic Center takes about 20-30 minutes. Dr. Bonucci will take your measurements, look at your leg flexion, then basically all you do is sit on a typical leg extension machine you see at every gym, except for you only push with a single leg (then repeat for the other leg). The muscle mass, endurance, and range of motion of your legs are calculated, and sent to Dr. Guichet by email, so he will have the information before you get to his office. You also get a printout. http://postimg.org/image/cp79f6whd/
Then I did what I had to do in the beginning - I took a taxi to the Dr.'s office. I was 5 minutes late. I immediately knew it was Dr. Guichet when I saw him. Black suit, white shirt, red tie, very classy gentleman. He was speaking with the desk clerk in Italian. We shook hands. Then he asked me for the printouts of the PDF patient form that he sent. I didn't have them. He smiled, and said something like "If you don't comply now, how are you going to lengthen?" I was embarrassed. Lesson? Be a good kid and print your stuff - bring them along with you! (Even if you had sent it to Dr. Guichet by email before coming here).
Our consultation must have taken around 2 hours. No kidding. I haven't seen a professional like Dr. Guichet in any field or work before. He looks at every possible little detail. He measured my flexibility himself. I also complained about my Ballerina Foot (stiff achilles tendons). He suggested that he could do a release surgery (not the tendons, but a little above them) so that my posture would be corrected and my spine wouldn't hurt anymore. He told me I have no scoliosis. So no problem there.
I would like to bust a myth as well: Some former patients had written on old forum that Dr. Guichet didn't always appear emotionally supportive. I saw a very intelligent man with a good sense of humor, and a genuine care for the patient rather than sugarcoating the facts about LL. If you don't think Dr. Guichet was emotionally supportive, then perhaps you expected to sit on his lap and wait for him to sing you a lullaby? I mean.. Just asking. Different people, different expectations - no offense :D
Anyway.. He was quick to give me the bad news. He told me that...
- Considering my tendons, he wouldn't suggest lengthening the tibias. If I did lengthen them after he fixed my stiff tendons, I would get back to square one - my current condition.
- At my current physical condition, I could only lengthen 3,5 cm in femurs.
- I can raise my leg about 80 degrees, keeping the other leg on the ground and lying down on my back. That needs to go up to 120-130 degrees before surgery. This means that I have to go back home, contact a yoga/pilates/professional dance instructor immediately, have her get in contact with the good doctor, and stretch every fricking day for 3-4 months. Sounds like a plan.
- I need to add 3-4 cm to my thigh circumference. This means increasing the leg muscle mass by 30-40%. If done wrong, you can work out for 6 months and only increase it by 10%. It needs to be done like it's being done by a professional athlete. After stretching for 3-4 months, you can contact Serge Coneza, a trainer who used to work for Olympique Marseille football team, go to Marseille and work out with him for a month, or do it here in Milan. (I intend to go back to my hometown, and work with my personal fitness instructor.. Who already knows my plans about the surgery. Heck, I even told my cousins about it. Only the president of my country doesn't know about it yet.)
- I need to write a 2-3 page motivation letter on why I want to do LL. (I don't know if it will be graded.. Should use some SAT words, perhaps).
- 10 cm is crazy. Must aim 7-8. He could do 5 in femurs, and then add another 5, leaving some time for recovery in between. The cost would be the same, since the nail is the same. I told him that it would take too long. "I would be glad to do 10 cm if you were physically prepared for it", he told me.
Okay, folks. That's pretty much it. Now, if SysOP is reading here, I'd like to state that I am "upinthesky" from old forum , I'm not mad at him or anything, and I kept silent in the forum regarding recent events because I really want to stay with the community there as well. However, I believe that everyone has a right to read a patient's diary, be it folks in old forum , or folks here. I would like everyone to have access to this information. Therefore, I intend to blog my lengthening experience, and use both websites as a Question/Answer source for helping out upcoming LL patients.
NOW, READY FOR THE SURPRISE PHOTO???
http://postimg.org/image/u3rhngtm9/
I saw it while I was walking in the streets of Milan.. Lost, tired and hungry.
Proof that God exists, and he's having a lot of fun with me..
Dameon, lend a hand with the photo uploads please..
Thanks for reading & Cheers
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That is just awesome on the last pic you posted.. ;D. For the experience with Dr. Guichet, thanks for writing a very thorough detail of your consultation. From the looks of it, he really does show great professionalism and compassion with his craft towards his future patients. Do you heavily consider going with Dr. Guichet now, after visiting him?
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@ orlandoflorida, though we all disagree with the way things are handled in old forum , I believe ChrisIsaak is entitled to write his diary anywhere he seems fit. The problem with old forum is that it's a great site for information but the catch is, we'd have to deal with these schmucks like SysOp. I'm hoping this site is just that minus the tyranny.
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orlandoflorida,
You're criticizing SysOP for being a dictator, yet showing a similar attitude here. No offense, but no one tells me what to post, and where to post it. I don't agree with you that old forum is "all scam". Look at OldieButGoldie's diary. Read it carefully, and you'll see that everything isn't necessarily perfect during a LL journey. I have criticized SysOP's recent attitude as well (in this forum). Please don't turn this into a black & white thing, and make me believe that people who want to lengthen their legs have Napoleon complexes. Sweden posts on both websites as well, and I'm glad we have him here.
Your attitude = SysOp's attitude = "If you don't like this forum, then leave" = No sharing of information = Everyone's on their own.
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Sorry if I was too harsh. You have a point, orlandoflorida, I respect it. Apparently Dryani's info was deleted on old forum too. Now he's complaining on a thread called "Quite Bizarre". Okay, you really have a point.
It's sad that it has come to this.
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So SysOp claims that he "hid" these diaries in fear of it being "stolen" from anold forum? lol
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" I think restricting certain diaries to those who have more education about leg lengthening is a good idea." - Sysop
People have to be a really stupid to believe the crap this person is spewing. Read that sentence over and over again. Lol.
It's clear that people will continue to be mislead over there and alot of people don't even know what's really going on.
@ChrisIssak, great update about Dr Guichet, interested to know what's your impression of Dr Paley, maybe in another thread.?
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" I think restricting certain diaries to those who have more education about leg lengthening is a good idea." - Sysop
People have to be a really stupid to believe the crap this person is spewing. Read that sentence over and over again. Lol.
It's clear that people will continue to be mislead over there and alot of people don't even know what's really going on.
@ChrisIssak, great update about Dr Guichet, interested to know what's your impression of Dr Paley, maybe in another thread.?
I don't think a lot of people are buying it. Many people were online when Dryani posted, but avoided answering because they're afraid to get banned.
By the way, did SysOp turn off the feature where you can see who's viewing the thread you're looking at? I know he turned off the "Who's Online" feature, but when I look at a thread, I can't see anyone else but my own name or when I'm a "guest" as I'm viewing it.
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Yes he deactivated those features.
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Your experience paints a good picture of Dr. Guichet and adds to the positive things said about him. I've always liked that he demands a specific level of fitness prior to starting the program, and even examines you to see if you're psychologically capable of going through with the procedure. If I had a choice between Dr. Betz and Dr. Guichet, Dr. Guichet would definitely be the one I'd go to.
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@Carter,
Good question. Here are the differences I've seen between Dr. Paley and Dr. Guichet..
- Dr. Guichet sends you to an Isokinetic Center to obtain data regarding your flexibility/range of motion/muscle mass/endurance. Dr. Paley didn't do this during our consultation.
- Both doctors checked for fascia lata/IT band muscles' flexibility. Dr. Guichet's approach is "Extensive pre-op physical preparation". If your fascia lata is stiff, Dr. Paley will perform an additional release for the muscle during surgery. Perhaps that could be why he doesn't require an extensive pre-op workout. I don't know - have to ask him.
- It might be difficult to reach Dr. Paley after the surgery. Mind you, this is only gut feeling and not a factual information. Dr. Paley has a wide team of assistants. Dr. Guichet doesn't seem to prefer "middle men" between him and his patients.
- I saw a lot of children and Achondroplasia patients at Dr. Paley's clinic, he's busy with a load of patients. Dr. Guichet seems to have many athletes among his patients, and appears to be an expert in sports injuries.
- Dr. Paley gets your X-rays taken in a machine like a shower cabin. It's a special X-ray, full body scan. Dr. Guichet didn't do this.
- Dr. Paley is overconfident in his abilities. Going to a consultation makes you feel there is no other place to do LL in a correct way. Dr. Guichet makes you feel the same way, but he isn't arrogant about it. (Mind you, I believe that a bit of an arrogance is entirely fine and acceptable in an excellent, premier surgeon).
- Dr. Paley puts you in a wheelchair, your legs in a cast. Dr. Guichet wants you to weightbear immediately. Day of surgery, you wake up, and do stationary bike for half an hour. Yeah - no kidding.
- Precice looks much more comfortable and painless than a mechanical nail. But I have no idea about how it actually is like. Guess you'd have to do both to be able to compare and tell.
- Overall, I am very, very confused about why two diffent doctors who sell "Safety first" have so different approaches. Both have amazing track records.. I think I have to see Dr. Paley once more when Precice 2 comes up. Then I'll make my final decision. Meanwhile, I will keep in touch with Dr. Guichet as well. Currently, I'll start working on my flexibility and muscle mass as if I'm going with Dr. Guichet. At the end, whoever I go with, more preparation can't hurt, right?
- Dr. Paley never sugarcoated anything. He warned me about all of the risks. Then why didn't he tell me something like "You can only do x cm in your current condition"? Dr. Guichet gave me a VERY precise number. A certain limit. Dr. Paley did mention, however, that "Some patients do 5-6 cm's and they are content with the result. The height neurosis tends to break down once you begin the process with the surgery and lengthening. The fact that the new Precice 2 lengthens up to 8 cm's doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can achieve it."
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- Overall, I am very, very confused about why two diffent doctors who sell "Safety first" have so different approaches. Both have amazing track records.. I think I have to see Dr. Paley once more when Precice 2 comes up. Then I'll make my final decision. Meanwhile, I will keep in touch with Dr. Guichet as well. Currently, I'll start working on my flexibility and muscle mass as if I'm going with Dr. Guichet. At the end, whoever I go with, more preparation can't hurt, right?
I think you're in safe hands with either of them. Since Dr. Guichet does treat a lot of athletes, if you're at all worried about retaining most of your athletic ability after the procedure, then he may be a better guide in that area. Just a thought.
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I think you're in safe hands with either of them. Since Dr. Guichet does treat a lot of athletes, if you're at all worried about retaining most of your athletic ability after the procedure, then he may be a better guide in that area. Just a thought.
Thanks for your input, Kilokahn!
I'm considering a lot of factors. I've spent the last few years of my life in the United States, and Florida is definitely a lovely place around spring time. The US is a very comfortable country for disabled people on wheelchairs, so honestly, it wouldn't bother me a lot. My only concern would be muscle atrophy. However, as old forum Admin once said "LL is for show, not for go", and I am no professional athlete either. Italy, on the other hand, is my dream country. I want to force myself to learn another language properly. I'm starting to forget my French and Italian, and this could be a great opportunity to practice both.
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My thoughts are that recovery to the fullest extend should be priority. You can always learn language and travel to places on holiday, but you can only do LL once or twice. Both doctors are experienced, so it comes down to whether you prefer Precice or Guichet Nail. I get the feeling that with Dr Guichet, you will be sweating and pushed alot physically to do PT, whereas Dr Paley will be letting you do more relax stretching. It's also important to feel comfortable with the Doctor's personality.
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My thoughts are that recovery to the fullest extend should be priority. You can always learn language and travel to places on holiday, but you can only do LL once or twice. Both doctors are experienced, so it comes down to whether you prefer Precice or Guichet Nail. I get the feeling that with Dr Guichet, you will be sweating and pushed alot physically to do PT, whereas Dr Paley will be letting you do more relax stretching. It's also important to feel comfortable with the Doctor's personality.
Here's the story of a young woman who lengthened her legs cosmetically with Dr. Guichet (9.4 cm, almost 4 inches). http://www.leg-limb-stature-lengthening-taller-height-increase-cosmetic.eu/guichet/temoin04.html
She started walking without crutches on Month 7, post-op.
As far as I can remember, Dr. Paley claims that his patients can begin sports on Month 6, post-op.
I don't see a pattern here. You do extensive PT with a doctor, you only do stretching PT with the other. And yet, you return to sports quicker. Is this Precice's "magic", or is it simply because the girl lengthened quite a lot with Dr. Guichet?
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I don't see a pattern here. You do extensive PT with a doctor, you only do stretching PT with the other. And yet, you return to sports quicker. Is this Precice's "magic", or is it simply because the girl lengthened quite a lot with Dr. Guichet?
Maybe the girl was a very good candidate with strong flexibility? Certainly don't expect everyone to have the same recovery because of difference in genetics, age, fitness.
I can believe Guichet patients walking without support after 7 months if everything is done right.
Paley's claims of 6 month post op playing sports....I'm doubtful but who knows.
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Dr Guichet is a little more expensive than I had in mind, but it seems to be a fairly seamless procedure. For 7.5 cm or 8 cm femurs, so far I am leaning towards him.
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Dr Guichet is a little more expensive than I had in mind, but it seems to be a fairly seamless procedure. For 7.5 cm or 8 cm femurs, so far I am leaning towards him.
Let me know when you book a consultation.
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I saw a person called "upinthesky" posting the same information on old forum . If this is ChrisIssak, then he is supporting Sysop-Apotheosis. Do we really need this kind of members here??
It's time for these people to pick one side and stick with it. This applies to Sweden too.
Maybe you two should stick with contributing to the old forum 's scam and lies.
Maybe you should get the fk out of my thread. You have psychological issues mate.
I told I was upinthesky from old forum . I am sharing information in both websites so that people can benefit from it. If you have no wish from benefiting from this information, you may leave this thread. I'm not putting a gun in your head to read it.
I don't support SysOP or anyone else, and neither do I approve of what happened in old forum lately, but what can I do? You criticize the man for being a dictator, yet act the same. Are you to decide who remains on a site or not?
I understand you're butthurt from being kicked away, but I am not the one who did it, mate. You're picking on the wrong person. Sorry but everything isn't black & white. Some of us are aware that life is made up of grey.
This is my last warning. Don't fk with me. You may leave this thread if you have no wish of reading it.
Thank you & Much appreciated.
I apologize from other members for my language.
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orlandoflorida,
Sorry for losing my temper man, but I don't want to pick a side. Sorry. This has nothing to do with growing a backbone. I'll be honest with you. Do you know why I'm still on old forum ? Because despite what happened, old forum is still a fairly popular website. Most patients here are Sarin patients, but on old forum I've been able to meet a new Guichet patient today. I know it sounds selfish, because it is selfish, but I have to think about my own good as well. old forum remains a better domain for technical discussion regarding LL since there are more "veterans" and experienced folk there, and I sincerely hope Limb Lengthening Forum will develop in a similar way, but we both know that it needs time. If I wasn't on old forum , I'd be unable to find two guys, one going with Guichet and the other with Paley in January. So, whoever I choose to go with, I'll have a friend while lengthening. Then why am I writing on this forum as well? Simple - because I don't think it's fair to ban people out of a disagreement and keep them away from valuable informarion. I don't support SysOP, but I can't wage war on him. He's the boss there. All I care about is doing my LL while getting in touch with as many patients as possible, to help and to learn from. In other words, maximizing my networking.
I haven't hidden anything from anyone. Thanks for reading.
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We are not here to pick sides. Many of us have concluded that old forum is a sales led promotional site. We have more than enough evidence that it is.
We cannot ask old forum members to not come here. We are not dictators ourselves. At the same time, I understand where orlandoflorida is coming from when he says by staying there , you are supporting it as a legitmate objective site. You have to concede that it is true.
There is going to be a feeling out process but we believe that we will eventually have enough patient diaries to make old forum irrelevant.
Until then, feel free to come and comment. We just ask you do not promote old forum in any way. :)
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Don't be a prick orlandoflorida.
I'm not supporting Apo or anyone.
Who wants to stay in a website where someone tells you him or her is not welcome bc of this or that?
Grow up or get out.
The hating must stop.
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We are not here to pick sides. Many of us have concluded that old forum is a sales led promotional site. We have more than enough evidence that it is.
We cannot ask old forum members to not come here. We are not dictators ourselves. At the same time, I understand where orlandoflorida is coming from when he says by staying there , you are supporting it as a legitmate objective site. You have to concede that it is true.
There is going to be a feeling out process but we believe that we will eventually have enough patient diaries to make old forum irrelevant.
Until then, feel free to come and comment. We just ask you do not promote old forum in any way. :)
Good post! +1
I'll start my femur diary in here if I'm not banned until next summer. 8)
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As a old forum member myself, why do you think I've decided to stay away from Germany? :D
I'm not blind.. But I don't have a "black & white" understanding of ethics either. If someone chooses to believe everything they read on a website, that's not my fault. Everyone should do their own research before going through a surgery like this.
I agree with your approach, TomD. Thank you.
I understand how orlandoflorida feels, but this website shouldn't be anti-old forum . Putting your whole basis on being against something is actually accepting that they are superior. Limb Lengthening Forum should eventually become a good alternative source of information - a grown entity on its own.
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If old forum members are asked to pick a side, then guess who loses? My bet is this one. And that's regardless of how biased the pickers believe the old forum site to be. Reason being is the sheer volume/history of info. there and the size of the audience there trumps this brand new site without a doubt (for now anyway). Moreover, I'm guessing the vast majority of members here are still regularly visiting old forum for updates. All I want is as much info. as possible. I have always filtered everything I read anyway. (Much of which is rubbish in my opinion.) I will visit as many LL forums as I know about. And I'd prefer to be welcome in all of them. (Although I only know of these 2 haha)
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If old forum members are asked to pick a side, then guess who loses? My bet is this one. And that's regardless of how biased the pickers believe the old forum site to be. Reason being is the sheer volume/history of info. there and the size of the audience there trumps this brand new site without a doubt (for now anyway). Moreover, I'm guessing the vast majority of members here are still regularly visiting old forum for updates. All I want is as much info. as possible. I have always filtered everything I read anyway. (Much of which is rubbish in my opinion.) I will visit as many LL forums as I know about. And I'd prefer to be welcome in all of them. (Although I only know of these 2 haha)
Haha, actually that's a good analogy of how things work in the real world. Generally people are too scared to go against what they know is wrong, this is why they end up screwing themselves in the long run anyway. As they say, karma is a bi*ch. Maybe staying on old forum helps a little in networking, but man how do you sleep at night knowing you are part of a con job?
Alot of it is down to Fear (false event appearing real). LL tend to attract alot of insecure people already, so this is not surprising.
In case you guys have not noticed, old forum has gone noticeably "quieter" since the truth was exposed, look at how many members are actually posting there now. Quite a number of people have deserted the site altogether and no longer associated themselves with it.
How many old forum members are actually still unaware of what's really going on? I bet a good number of them are still in the dark, due to the banning of people and censorship of PM.
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Personally my loyalty is to LL Forum for keeping it real and helping people avoid alot of the BS elsewhere. Do I still surf old forum for info? Yea sometimes just to laugh at the noobs there. But no way am I posting a damn thing to fulfill Apotheosis and Crazy+6 twisted "vision" of LL.
anyway, let's move on from this sub topic okay? Some people will cling onto old forum till the earth ends and others know what they stand for. No point arguing anymore.
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Carter - nice questions.
My answer is simple - I don't have that much of a conscience.
If you ask if I can sleep comfortably at night, yeah of course I can. Trust me, I've seen much worse things in life than being part of a con job.
I suppose you and orlandoflorida must be American? I might be wrong, but I'm assuming so. I've lived in the States for a couple of years and personally seen how some people idealize a certain code of ethics. This happens in first world countries. Not in holes like where I come from.
I come from a land where there is no justice whatsoever and one must be the fittest to survive.
Everyone's on their own in this journey. When I share information, I expect people to be happy. Maybe I can lure a few patients on old forum to go to Dr. Guichet, who emphasizes safety first before all else. I don't have to share this information, because I don't get a reward for it except for helping other patients. I am not spending my time here (or any old forum) to be judged.
Everyone's on their own in life. If some people are naive enough to "buy" the scams, perhaps they need to work on something more important than their height. I believe most of the people received PM's there. Well, they could've come here. Like I, or Sweden did.
You seem to be confusing "Utility maximization" and "Being afraid". I'm not afraid of anyone. Certainly not from an online forum moderator.
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I believe most of the people received PM's there. Well, they could've come here. Like I, or Sweden did.
Forget that PM thing, it didn't work out judging by the "Most Online Ever" stats. Some people never check emails, turn off PM to Email feature or thought it was spam/virus link. You can still see confused people like Dryani and others who are obviously out of the loop.
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How many old forum members are actually still unaware of what's really going on? I bet a good number of them are still in the dark, due to the banning of people and censorship of PM.
About that, I think someone should compile the evidence against old forum /Sysopotheosis more or less in the form it's already in here in the sticky threads, but then post it on a more permanent external site, like a single page article on a simple site like a blog. Then we could make sure that article will appear on the first hits for "make me taller" or similar related searches on Google so that there's no way no one interested in LL could miss it. A similar example would be the Reddit post on /r/short recently, but that thread will get buried in time, and that's a pretty limited audience as well. This forum is nice and will also pop up in search results, but with the crucial old forum info buried in forum threads some of the "in your face" debunking effect will be lost and some people will maybe never stumble upon it.
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Hi
I read this thread on 30 nov 2014 and then i saw your diary that you wnet to Turkish doctor?
What are factors that you chane for G to Turkish doctor?
And do you have any suggestion to me?
I really want to do with Paley and Guichet but I need 8 cm.
If my flexibility noot too good,should i wait for 4months to work out Yoga?