Limb Lengthening Forum

Community Hangout => Off Topic => Topic started by: Astronomy on May 02, 2021, 04:02:19 PM

Title: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Astronomy on May 02, 2021, 04:02:19 PM: I've found a phenomenon that although he or she is already taller than a region's average height by even 5cms,still exclaims his height is on average or even below average.I dunno vanity plays a role or it's real that average height is not only just statistic and you should get taller than the average height by 5cm-10cms to be considered as normal.

But I found this phenomenon just in China.

Recently I've met an overseas Chinese girl who said in a European country where she dwells in with 176-177cm average height statistically,a 183cm tall man can be called 'tall' by both men and girls but in China although even millenials average height is only 173cm(You can say 178cm or 180cm but I wanna tell you this thread won't show welcome to retards like you),185cm can win attraction on dating.

Is my country too heightism or average height is just a piece of statistic lie?
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: TheDream on May 02, 2021, 04:29:21 PM: It is an interesting question that I believe anyone who visits here will have wondered about often, I know I have.
The best answer I have been able to conjure on the matter is this:

Height follows a normal distribution (gaussian distribution in math). With a normal distribution you have what is called a standard deviation, which quantifies the spread. In this case it would be the spread of male heights in the population. One standard deviation is defined as the 68th percentile. Meaning that 68% of male height will lie within this range. Two standard deviations are known as the 95th percentile. Meaning that 95% of male height will lie within this range. Three standard deviations is known as the 99th percentile. Meaning that 99% of male heights will lie in this range.

In the image below you can see the area between -1σ and 1σ is the one standard deviation range. Meaning that 68% of male heights will lie in this range and consequently considered average heights.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Standard_deviation_diagram.svg/325px-Standard_deviation_diagram.svg.png)

Anything below -1σ can objectively be categorized as short in my opinion. Everything above +1σ can be consequently be considered tall in my opinion. Then you have heights below -2σ which is very short and below -3σ extremely short.

What height these ranges correspond to will depend on which country you are living in.

As an example in Denmark, statistics from 2007-2008 show that for young adult males (ages between 18-24) at the time, the mean height in this normal distribution was approximately 182 cm. The 1 negative standard deviation (-σ) was approximately 178 cm. The negative second standard deviation (-2σ) was about 172 cm. The 1 positive standard deviation (σ) was approximately 187 cm, so this is where you would be considered tall. The second positive standard deviation (2σ) was approximately 194 cm, so this where you would be considered very tall. Source: https://www.sdu.dk/sif/-/media/images/sif/projekter/projekter_dokumenter/kram/resultater/fra+helbredundersoegelsen/anthropometry.pdf (https://www.sdu.dk/sif/-/media/images/sif/projekter/projekter_dokumenter/kram/resultater/fra+helbredundersoegelsen/anthropometry.pdf)

These numbers will of course be different for other countries. If you live in the Netherlands they will be higher while if you live in Italy or Mexico they will be lower. This can also explain why some people here on the LL forums will consider LL at a height of say 5'8" (173 cm) if they live in a tall country, while for someone in a shorter country, 5'8" (173 cm) will be a perfect height and they cannot understand why someone with that height would consider LL.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Serilium on May 02, 2021, 04:45:23 PM: American distribution for men

THIS IS ONLY FOR AMERICA INCLUDING IMMIGRANTS.
I can definitely see it being different if you are in Netherlands, Mexico, Phillipines, etc.
-1 SD: 170.8cm (~5'7) Bottom 16% of society
-2 SD: 163.2cm (~5'4) Bottom 2% of society
-3 SD: ~150cm (~5'0 and less) Effectively bottom 0% of society. In 100 out of 100 rooms you enter, you will probably be the shortest man every time. You probably have never met any guy shorter than you that doesn't have achondroplasia/dwarfism.

Personal thoughts(remember this is for America only on average + immigrants, different reactions if you are in an all white city, in the Netherlands, etc):

-1 SD: Damn, sucks, but you will not always be the shortest guy wherever you go, still less than ideal but you'll be alright at least half the time. I could see you being insecure about it, you are shorter than roughly 80% of all men you see. At least you're taller than the vast majority of women! Disclaimer: PLENTY OF GUYS AT THIS HEIGHT HAVE NO NEUROSIS AT ALL AND ARE CONFIDENT AF! But totally understandable if that's not you

-2 SD: Damn, your basically the shortest dude whereever you go, but you occasionally see some dude shorter every few weeks, tough stuff I could definitely see height neurosis developing just by virtue of being towered by everyone else. You're shorter than effectively 98% of all men you see. And you are probably at the same height as the average women, so half of them will eclipse you. Feel really bad for you man.

-3 SD: Damn, you are the shortest guy you probably have ever seen except dwarfism patients, really tough man. You are the shortest man in your life probably. I have no words but I truly feel for you and I know you definitely are justified in whatever height neurosis or dysphoria you have 100%. It sucks man, I have the utmost respect if you do something great of yourself and ignore the stupid height trait and neurosis.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: increase on May 02, 2021, 04:47:53 PM: i am 3 :-[ :'(
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: TheDream on May 02, 2021, 05:21:33 PM: Quote from: Serilium on May 02, 2021, 04:45:23 PM
American distribution for men

THIS IS ONLY FOR AMERICA INCLUDING IMMIGRANTS.
I can definitely see it being different if you are in Netherlands, Mexico, Phillipines, etc.
-1 SD: 170.8cm (~5'7) Bottom 16% of society
-2 SD: 163.2cm (~5'4) Bottom 2% of society
-3 SD: ~150cm (~5'0 and less) Effectively bottom 0% of society. In 100 out of 100 rooms you enter, you will probably be the shortest man every time. You probably have never met any guy shorter than you that doesn't have achondroplasia/dwarfism.

Remember to be careful using terms such as % of society when referring to your data. I believe your data is for men, which means it is not representative of society as women will have a different height distribution. Even at -3 SD or below there will still be quite a few women below that, simply as a consequence of statistics.

I believe thinking of things in terms of normal distribution and standard deviations can add some objectivity to our feelings of height neurosis however. I believe psychologists will always argue that LL is a consequence of body dysmorphic disorder. Which is an interesting debate. Is height neurosis actually always body dysmorphic disorder or is it a legitimate rational feeling past a certain SD?

I guess a psychologist would argue that there are lots of men at -2 SD and below -3 SD that do not do LL, are married and as a consequence; it is invalid to use a normal distribution to argue in favor of LL and height neurosis being rational.

On other hand we know from this data along with objective statistical data that men at -2 SD and -3 SD or below are at a severe objective disadvantage when it comes to attracting a partner. So is it not logical to feel bad about your body and want to change it?

This would however require admitting that there is a giant, serious discrimination against short men in society, on the same level of severity as racism, which is not a pleasant realization for normal people to admit.

Alternatively however, we cannot ignore the argument that there are lots of men who do not feel height neurosis even at -2 SD or -3 SD. So it is not a given that you will feel it. It is also not impossible to enter a successful relationship with a woman you love.

Therefore, are we that browse this forum and consider LL subjective to a certain personality trait that makes us more vulnerable to body dysmorphic disorder? Or is it simply a rational and logical objective feeling to consider LL in order to improve our probability of satisfying a woman we fall in love with. I think it is a fascinating and important debate to think about. Personally, I don't think any therapy session can fix height neurosis at about -2 SD or below. It is perhaps the most basic, primitive feeling a life force can feel, our size compared to the size of others. Still, a lot of men at - 2 SD and - 3 SD do not seemed bothered by height neruosis, so perhaps it is the personality trait that causes me to be prone to body dysmorphic disorder that makes me blind to reality.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: BelowTheMean on May 02, 2021, 07:21:17 PM: What makes this more complicated is that while actual heights follows a Gaussian distribution, women don't view male height in this way.
-Possibility 1: Short men are literally invisible to women and they can only picture taller men in their heads when asked about average height. This view of male height follows a normal distribution with a mean much higher than the actual average.
-Possibility 2: Women do notice short men but underestimate how many there are because they are thinking about taller men most of the time. This view of male height follows the Pareto distribution with a large majority of men falling "below average" in height.

Both possibilities can produce the "6' minimum or single" girls.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: berezoni on May 02, 2021, 08:11:52 PM: Quote from: increase on May 02, 2021, 04:47:53 PM
i am 3 :-[ :'(
I hope you don't mind me asking ...Are you still growing? What is the reason? Is it genetics? My daughter is only 4'7 due to precocious puberty.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: increase on May 02, 2021, 08:30:13 PM: I expressed myself badly.
I measure 153 (5'0 ") and I meant that I am in the 3rd option of the Serilium pose. I think it was genetic in my case. I intend to do the two segments (tibia and femur) by LON or just tibia by LON and femur by Precice-2. the tibia already started this year, in July.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: 10cmOnTibiaOrGTFO on May 02, 2021, 08:42:54 PM: i am 1. and yeah im pretty confident but tahts because im smart and im quiet good looking.
so at least i got blessed with intelligence and have a career going for me.
else i would probably rope ^^ imagine being short and have nothing going for you in life jeez :-X
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Body Builder on May 02, 2021, 10:43:08 PM: About 7cm (3 inches).
If 5.10 is the average height, less than 5.7 is short and more than 6.1 is tall.
If someone is very strict maybe 2 inches (5cm) but I strongly believe that up to 3 inches more or less is considered as average.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Astronomy on May 03, 2021, 04:43:10 AM: Quote from: TheDream on May 02, 2021, 04:29:21 PM
It is an interesting question that I believe anyone who visits here will have wondered about often, I know I have.
The best answer I have been able to conjure on the matter is this:

Height follows a normal distribution (gaussian distribution in math). With a normal distribution you have what is called a standard deviation, which quantifies the spread. In this case it would be the spread of male heights in the population. One standard deviation is defined as the 68th percentile. Meaning that 68% of male height will lie within this range. Two standard deviations are known as the 95th percentile. Meaning that 95% of male height will lie within this range. Three standard deviations is known as the 99th percentile. Meaning that 99% of male heights will lie in this range.

In the image below you can see the area between -1σ and 1σ is the one standard deviation range. Meaning that 68% of male heights will lie in this range and consequently considered average heights.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Standard_deviation_diagram.svg/325px-Standard_deviation_diagram.svg.png)

Anything below -1σ can objectively be categorized as short in my opinion. Everything above +1σ can be consequently be considered tall in my opinion. Then you have heights below -2σ which is very short and below -3σ extremely short.

What height these ranges correspond to will depend on which country you are living in.

As an example in Denmark, statistics from 2007-2008 show that for young adult males (ages between 18-24) at the time, the mean height in this normal distribution was approximately 182 cm. The 1 negative standard deviation (-σ) was approximately 178 cm. The negative second standard deviation (-2σ) was about 172 cm. The 1 positive standard deviation (σ) was approximately 187 cm, so this is where you would be considered tall. The second positive standard deviation (2σ) was approximately 194 cm, so this where you would be considered very tall. Source: https://www.sdu.dk/sif/-/media/images/sif/projekter/projekter_dokumenter/kram/resultater/fra+helbredundersoegelsen/anthropometry.pdf (https://www.sdu.dk/sif/-/media/images/sif/projekter/projekter_dokumenter/kram/resultater/fra+helbredundersoegelsen/anthropometry.pdf)

These numbers will of course be different for other countries. If you live in the Netherlands they will be higher while if you live in Italy or Mexico they will be lower. This can also explain why some people here on the LL forums will consider LL at a height of say 5'8" (173 cm) if they live in a tall country, while for someone in a shorter country, 5'8" (173 cm) will be a perfect height and they cannot understand why someone with that height would consider LL.
I can't agree more with you.Someone excessively strict is holding two different principles like in some regions with 175cm average height,174 or 173 cm is short but 176cm or 177cm is just on average.The former conflicts with the latter.That's why you can still see someone stupid over his inhabitat's average height than 5cm he is still considering LL cuz he is too perfectism to accept the truth that he can be called tall already.

And also why women are always seeking for spouses with height over the average height than 10cm and they are still keeping saying he is just normal.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: tallmen on May 03, 2021, 11:49:55 AM: Quote from: Coeus on May 02, 2021, 04:02:19 PM
I've found a phenomenon that although he or she is already taller than a region's average height by even 5cms,still exclaims his height is on average or even below average.I dunno vanity plays a role or it's real that average height is not only just statistic and you should get taller than the average height by 5cm-10cms to be considered as normal.

But I found this phenomenon just in China.

Recently I've met an overseas Chinese girl who said in a European country where she dwells in with 176-177cm average height statistically,a 183cm tall man can be called 'tall' by both men and girls but in China although even millenials average height is only 173cm(You can say 178cm or 180cm but I wanna tell you this thread won't show welcome to retards like you),185cm can win attraction on dating.

Is my country too heightism or average height is just a piece of statistic lie?

It's because of f**dup sex ratio in china. There are a lot more guys and too few girls so that's why they have these ridiculous standards. You can't do anything about that. It is what it is. Get the surgery and move to the US.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Astronomy on May 03, 2021, 12:18:01 PM: Quote from: overandover on May 03, 2021, 11:49:55 AM
It's because of f**dup sxx ratio in china. There are a lot more guys and too few girls so that's why they have these ridiculous standards. You can't do anything about that. It is what it is. Get the surgery and move to the US.
Actually I'm also planning to dwell in US not simply cuz of imbalanced ratio of two genders.Just cuz I think Chinese education can't create prodigies but only examining robots.To foster a highly intelligent baby I won't let him achieve Chinese education.

Not offense to China but Chinese education is always being blamed for high stresses it is bringing to children but also creating students only placing emphasis on nothing but scores all the time.I dont want my children to be so-called scoring heroes.I think it's the part reason why only Chineses are always insulting short men as disabilities.To be frank I've never heard of foreigners calling short men as disabilties and at most short.Calling short men as disabilities both insult the disable and short men and mostly Chineses can't learn that.

I ain't afraid of your being puzzled in my country even though I grew taller to 175cm after LL,there are also some girls calling me disabilities.I dunno why in a country with 173 average height(Millenials average height.If some Chinese visitors are prone to trying to argue with me that milenials average height is 180cm I won't argue with you cuz in my eyes you're just a retard.Average height of 180cm is taller than most of European countries').

I also found that many Chineses website users are drastically bragging millenials' average height,such as 11 y.o boy is normal if he is 180cm tall or 12 y.o girl is normal if she is 170-172cm tall,and it's more exaggerated that a 185cm tall man can't feel he is a tall man among junior students.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: tallmen on May 03, 2021, 01:14:35 PM: Quote from: Coeus on May 03, 2021, 12:18:01 PM
Actually I'm also planning to dwell in US not simply cuz of imbalanced ratio of two genders.Just cuz I think Chinese education can't create prodigies but only examining robots.To foster a highly intelligent baby I won't let him achieve Chinese education.

Not offense to China but Chinese education is always being blamed for high stresses it is bringing to children but also creating students only placing emphasis on nothing but scores all the time.I dont want my children to be so-called scoring heroes.I think it's the part reason why only Chineses are always insulting short men as disabilities.To be frank I've never heard of foreigners calling short men as disabilties and at most short.Calling short men as disabilities both insult the disable and short men and mostly Chineses can't learn that.

I ain't afraid of your being puzzled in my country even though I grew taller to 175cm after LL,there are also some girls calling me disabilities.I dunno why in a country with 173 average height(Millenials average height.If some Chinese visitors are prone to trying to argue with me that milenials average height is 180cm I won't argue with you cuz in my eyes you're just a retard.Average height of 180cm is taller than most of European countries').

I also found that many Chineses website users are drastically bragging millenials' average height,such as 11 y.o boy is normal if he is 180cm tall or 12 y.o girl is normal if she is 170-172cm tall,and it's more exaggerated that a 185cm tall man can't feel he is a tall man among junior students.

All eastern countries are like that. They don't care about mental health and life. It's all about competition and their ridiculous standards.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: RealLostSoul on May 03, 2021, 02:12:16 PM: In my personal experience <2 inches of the average is short while >2 inches above average is tall. For example, 5'11 is the average in my region. People who are below 5'9 and above 6'1 often get comments from other people.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Serilium on May 03, 2021, 06:08:39 PM: 180 cm man in china: really is 174 + 5cm thick soles + lie inflation of height
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Astronomy on May 03, 2021, 06:25:49 PM: Quote from: Serilium on May 03, 2021, 06:08:39 PM
180 cm man in china: really is 174 + 5cm thick soles + lie inflation of height
Actually it is true that 180cm is a usual height for Chinese millenials,especially in highly developed regions like Shanghai,Beijing,Qingdao,Shijiazhuang and so on.So when some users announce they feel average with 180cm height,I will mostly agree with him.

But nowadays many and many Chineses are writing fairy tales that there are no millenials under 180cm or even 185cm,or something like 175-180cm is the shortest in a normal class.(Yeah...completely beat Crotians and Dutchs hahaha..).And you can also see some so-called 'parents' or even junior students keep running their mouths that 180cm is on average as a 11-12 y.o boy and there are more exaggerated announcements than this.

So I think Chinese average height maybe can step into the first place of the whole world?
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Serilium on May 03, 2021, 06:55:52 PM: Quote from: Coeus on May 03, 2021, 06:25:49 PM
Actually it is true that 180cm is a usual height for Chinese millenials

Source missing not everything you read on the computer is true ;D
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Thorfinnn on May 03, 2021, 07:29:23 PM: 180 cm average millennial height in China?
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: HeightGain on May 03, 2021, 07:37:13 PM: Where I work I see many rich Chinese in their 20s. Very rarely do you see one over 183cm. There is no way the average is anywhere near 180cm.

Start of the day in boots and lifts then the average might be 180cm.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: tallmen on May 03, 2021, 10:56:05 PM: Quote from: Thorfinnn on May 03, 2021, 07:29:23 PM
180 cm average millennial height in China?

It's psychological. If he feels 180 cm is average height nothing you say will change his mind. He won't be happy unless he reaches 180 cm no matter what. Thankfully for me, the number is 172 cm to be happy and I can easily reach that target in just one lengthening.
Title: Re: How many centimeters below average height a man should be considered 'short'?
Post by: Astronomy on May 04, 2021, 05:46:17 AM: Quote from: overandover on May 03, 2021, 10:56:05 PM
It's psychological. If he feels 180 cm is average height nothing you say will change his mind. He won't be happy unless he reaches 180 cm no matter what. Thankfully for me, the number is 172 cm to be happy and I can easily reach that target in just one lengthening.
It ain't resulted from one's psyche and is true that 180cm is a normal height for Chinese millenials cuz heights ranging from -1 SD to +1 SD will make you feel you're just a normal pedestrian walking on the streets and in the schools.But I'm talking about metrocirtizens and it can't be like this in villages or remote regions.Yet 180cm is a highly welcomed height in dating or devoting yourself to being a superstar.