Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: Righteous on January 23, 2022, 04:34:41 PM
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Rather than 'equality', I prefer 'fairness', so I thnk LL must forbid patients above average height of their countriesfrom doing this surgery to guarantee 'taller men still can be taller men' will never happen.
What's your take on this?
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Rather than 'equality', I prefer 'fairness', so I thnk LL must forbid patients above average height of their countriesfrom doing this surgery to guarantee 'taller men still can be taller men' will never happen.
What's your take on this?
I don't know, but some taller men may want to do it if they want to become Hollywood stars. Same happening to people wanting to become Korean actors.
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Well what is average??
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Well what is average??
In Asia, the average height for taller men maybe around 174-175cm.
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And America??
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And America??
I guess if an American is around 176-178, that is a little taller but not super tall. 178 would be quite tall in Asia.
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Is the average American 178?? I did not know that
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Are you saying ban any person 175 and above from getting ll???
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Are you saying ban any person 175 and above from getting ll???
NO. It's up to them whether they want to do LL.
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Yes I agree
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My thoughts are that u are crazy n that moderator should ban u and some other recent users !
Who are u or anyone to decide who is a good candidate or not !?
Get the surgery and stfu with all this hate n discrimination towards others as if it was others people fault that they are taller then u!!!
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Yes - a silly question on this site
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My thoughts are that u are crazy n that moderator should ban u and some other recent users !
Who are u or anyone to decide who is a good candidate or not !?
Get the surgery and stfu with all this hate n discrimination towards others as if it was others people fault that they are taller then u!!!
I saw your height and I am not considering you getting forbidden from this surgery if you are living in a country taller than 175cm.
I am just guaranteeing the necessity of LL cuz yesterday a post about LL arms race warned us that if everyone could achieve LL then LL instead became meaningless cuz taller men were still taller men.
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Yes - a silly question on this site
until one day you did surgery to grow up to like 170cm but orginally 170cm men did it to grow up to like 180cm. Still couldn't make sense.
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Are you saying ban any person 175 and above from getting ll???
If LL can guarantee it cannot be achieved by anyone who wants to do this then banning is just a joke. But in light of yesterday's post about LL arms race, it is likely not to be just a joke.
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My gosh - you really don't make sense 😒
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LL arms race???
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1) You acting like every short men cares about height as much as we all do while I made example of poeple close to me shorter them me that could not care less .
2) because you are obsessed ,like all here, you consider "normal" or "douable" to brake both of ur legs , put nails in and go trough an exhausting period of distraction ,just to have right after a phase of consolidation where you will have to re-learn how to walk ..even with a weight bearing nail..not even considering that before n after stryde it was about being on wheelchair for months n months .
A LOT of people with height dysphoria out there will NOT do this surgery.
You can just go n scroll down the comment section on ytb on some BBC videos or other programs in the states that brought this procedure ,and you will see how many people claim short heights but they would not do the surgery .
Others say they would but because to type it is easy but they eventually will never go for it because it is a BIG decision .
You forgetting all those factors and acting like this was easy n only thing from stopping taller people to do it it's because they don't know it .
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1) You acting like every short men cares about height as much as we all do while I made example of poeple close to me shorter them me that could not care less .
2) because you are obsessed ,like all here, you consider "normal" or "douable" to brake both of ur legs , put nails in and go trough an exhausting period of distraction ,just to have right after a phase of consolidation where you will have to re-learn how to walk ..even with a weight bearing nail..not even considering that before n after stryde it was about being on wheelchair for months n months .
A LOT of people with height dysphoria out there will NOT do this surgery.
You can just go n scroll down the comment section on ytb on some BBC videos or other programs in the states that brought this procedure ,and you will see how many people claim short heights but they would not do the surgery .
Others say they would but because to type it is easy but they eventually will never go for it because it is a BIG decision .
You forgetting all those factors and acting like this was easy n only thing from stopping taller people to do it it's because they don't know it .
I have to agree—not to mention tall people have even less motivation to undergo this kind of procedure.
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Just stop posting silly questions - or moderator should step in
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I mean u've posted nearly 1500 times and you will never do the surgery - have you nothing else to do you are not adding to prospective Limb Lengthening- you are now taking seriously a ll arms race??? wtf
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I mean u've posted nearly 1500 times and you will never do the surgery - have you nothing else to do you are not adding to prospective Limb Lengthening- you are now taking seriously a ll arms race??? wtf
No need to register a new account th. I have to warn you if you were banned but you log in with a new account then you should claim it's your another account, otherwise you are still likely to get banned although I don't think mod will allow banned users to log in with a new account without being banned for one more time ::)
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1) You acting like every short men cares about height as much as we all do while I made example of poeple close to me shorter them me that could not care less .
2) because you are obsessed ,like all here, you consider "normal" or "douable" to brake both of ur legs , put nails in and go trough an exhausting period of distraction ,just to have right after a phase of consolidation where you will have to re-learn how to walk ..even with a weight bearing nail..not even considering that before n after stryde it was about being on wheelchair for months n months .
A LOT of people with height dysphoria out there will NOT do this surgery.
You can just go n scroll down the comment section on ytb on some BBC videos or other programs in the states that brought this procedure ,and you will see how many people claim short heights but they would not do the surgery .
Others say they would but because to type it is easy but they eventually will never go for it because it is a BIG decision .
You forgetting all those factors and acting like this was easy n only thing from stopping taller people to do it it's because they don't know it .
All right I think I have made it clear that if LL arms race will really happen then it's the only feasible way to eradicate LL arms race so I already got your points but the prerequisite of all of what I am talking about is LL arms race will happen. If it won't then O.C what I am saying is just a piss in the wind.
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Banned for what, 1500 posts!!! 🤣
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There's no LL governing body that can tell every doctor on earth what to do.
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I just don't think the concern is valid. LL is a costly, hard procedure to undergo that requires 6+ months of recovery, pain, and PT in order to return to normal. Do you really think tall people are going to go through with that? What motivations would they have for doing so? It would be a waste of time for them.
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Are you saying ban any person 175 and above from getting ll???
Everybody should be honest here: altough I respect everybody's opinions, if I was a doctor I would never do LL in a person even shorter than average in his country if he/she was within one standard deviation. And of course this wouldn't be like somebody said (I think incredible) to keep natural population proportions.
It would be of course because , although I will most probably do LL(my height neurosis is decades long and I am allmost beyond 3 standard deviations), this is potentially (very) dangerous and in certain cases of height dysphoria, a man will sometimes never be happy with his height.
In medicine the first Hipócrates principle is " do no harm".
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Everybody should be honest here: altough I respect everybody's opinions, if I was a doctor I would never do LL in a person even shorter than average in his country if he/she was within one standard deviation. And of course this wouldn't be like somebody said (I think incredible) to keep natural population proportions.
It would be of course because , although I will most probably do LL(my height neurosis is decades long and I am allmost beyond 3 standard deviations), this is potentially (very) dangerous and in certain cases of height dysphoria, a man will sometimes never be happy with his height.
In medicine the first Hipócrates principle is " do no harm".
From renowned surgeons no bad cases (meaning deaths or complications that could not be fixed) have been reported .
Complications under 6 cm femur are pretty rare and overall people are satisfied.
Bad cases are reported with bad or new doctors and with big amount of lengthening.
This surgery is hard but until we undergo it , we don't know what it is and what it feels like to be on the other side,so we might overstimed it by trying to be more aware (if it makes sense said like this ) .
Some report it to be easier then they thought so ..if kids can undergo it (even tho unilateral) we can do it bilateral !
I'm very scared as well,but if it is performed worldwide then yes..for being cosmetic its "very risky" from a theoretical point of view , but because mental health it's not taked into account .
Its riskier to be depressed and unhappy both from a physical n mental point of view since this it's not an open brain surgery !
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I will probably do LL. and you're right in some points.
But unfortunately for me, you and most people here, I'm sorry, you are not correct in crucial aspects.
You can check it in this forum, in which a minimal proportion of LLers participate. Here there are reported at least 3 thrombosis deaths, including with two of the top doctors (Paley and Guichet).
Several became crippled and many with physical "underperformance" after surgery.
We can only minimize risks by for example choosing one of the most experienced and ethical doctors, be ready to do 6 or even 7 physiotherapy sessions per week during months or more, choosing the saffest and not the more "fashion" or comfortable methods (still Ilizarov externals for tibias, for example), and being sure to be psychologically and financially prepared for treatment of complications, pain, etc.
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I will probably do LL. and you're right in some points.
But unfortunately for me, you and most people here, I'm sorry, you are not correct in crucial aspects.
You can check it in this forum, in which a minimal proportion of LLers participate. Here there are reported at least 3 thrombosis deaths, including with two of the top doctors (Paley and Guichet).
Several became crippled and many with physical "underperformance" after surgery.
We can only minimize risks by for example choosing one of the most experienced and ethical doctors, be ready to do 6 or even 7 physiotherapy sessions per week during months or more, choosing the saffest and not the more "fashion" or comfortable methods (still Ilizarov externals for tibias, for example), and being sure to be psychologically and financially prepared for treatment of complications, pain, etc.
Paley never had a death , just giotikas and guichet with a 13 mm thick albizza nail .
Giotikas is no one in this field and had several misalignments while guichet was a famous doctor but turned out not to be a good one .
I read that sarin was very popular in old forum , this does not make him automatically a good choiche ( making an example that "famous" does not equal good) .
Crippled people ,as I said, were all with BAD doctors in bad countries (as far as I know/its reported here) .
Complications and underperformance can be a thing but it's up to age /amount of lengthening and so on .
A healthy 20 to 30 yo person with <6cm femur and <5 cm tibia , will hardly have bad outcomes with a good doctor .
Things can happen because its life , but this was my point .
People still to this day go to betz ( who is 70yo +) and do 10cm ..is it that LL it's not safe or that they are stupid ?
By no mean go and do it for bo reason , but I believe that if u follow those steps , you will eventually trade some athletic ability but you will be x10 times happier which to me , it's worth the trade .
Basketball players will have later in life joints problems ,same with soccer players of NFL players who had brain problems etc.
There is always a trade off in this life ,but if you do it for the right reasons , that trade off might be very worth it .
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Paley never had a death , just giotikas and guichet with a 13 mm thick albizza nail .
Giotikas is no one in this field and had several misalignments while guichet was a famous doctor but turned out not to be a good one .
I read that sarin was very popular in old forum , this does not make him automatically a good choiche ( making an example that "famous" does not equal good) .
Crippled people ,as I said, were all with BAD doctors in bad countries (as far as I know/its reported here) .
Complications and underperformance can be a thing but it's up to age /amount of lengthening and so on .
A healthy 20 to 30 yo person with <6cm femur and <5 cm tibia , will hardly have bad outcomes with a good doctor .
Things can happen because its life , but this was my point .
People still to this day go to betz ( who is 70yo +) and do 10cm ..is it that LL it's not safe or that they are stupid ?
By no mean go and do it for bo reason , but I believe that if u follow those steps , you will eventually trade some athletic ability but you will be x10 times happier which to me , it's worth the trade .
Basketball players will have later in life joints problems ,same with soccer players of NFL players who had brain problems etc.
There is always a trade off in this life ,but if you do it for the right reasons , that trade off might be very worth it .
Ok, you just can't get out of some dogmatic wishful thinking. It's a pitty because you won't learn or contribute much here if you stick too much to that.
Yes, there were crippled persons with top doctors, for example "Unicorn" with Dr. Guichet (altough some people prefer to blame her).
Yes there was at least a death with Dr. Paley (thrombosis).
And 99% of LLers I suppose don't use this forum to know more about.
It seems to me you're imprisoned in wishful thinking. It's simply not true unfortunately that those 20/30 old with 6 cm extension in both segments are almost always ok. And just to remind, I will probably do LL. It's true that we can minimise risks to a certain extent (eg an experienced and ethical doctor) and you are right that there are tradeoffs and some of us may be happier being taller albeit with lower performance, so we should be more realistic to be able to plan ideally our LL process and to be tottally prepared for the possible outcomes.
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Ok, you just can't get out of some dogmatic wishful thinking. It's a pitty because you won't learn or contribute much here if you stick too much to that.
Yes, there were crippled persons with top doctors, for example "Unicorn" with Dr. Guichet (altough some people prefer to blame her).
Yes there was at least a death with Dr. Paley (thrombosis).
And 99% of LLers I suppose don't use this forum to know more about.
It seems to me you're imprisoned in wishful thinking. It's simply not true unfortunately that those 20/30 old with 6 cm extension in both segments are almost always ok. And just to remind, I will probably do LL. It's true that we can minimise risks to a certain extent (eg an experienced and ethical doctor) and you are right that there are tradeoffs and some of us may be happier being taller albeit with lower performance, so we should be more realistic to be able to plan ideally our LL process and to be tottally prepared for the possible outcomes.
The problem with you rigt now is that you are not even Reading my texts but just going on your own .
Paley had NO death reported ,what are you talking about?
I already talked about guichet n there have been MANY mistakes there ;AGAIN,guichet was a famous doctor not a good one , just like sarin .
There is no wishful thinking because I m years in ,and probably will never be ok with this surgery .
I will do it , but will never dive into it happy and glad I'm breaking my legs because I'm fearless .
You saying yes or no to my statments but yet have to see a bad outcome from a person that followed the steps I mentioned before ; if you can link a diary or something I would be intrested to read .
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Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley, altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.
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The problem with you rigt now is that you are not even Reading my texts but just going on your own .
Paley had NO death reported ,what are you talking about?
I already talked about guichet n there have been MANY mistakes there ;AGAIN,guichet was a famous doctor not a good one , just like sarin .
There is no wishful thinking because I m years in ,and probably will never be ok with this surgery .
I will do it , but will never dive into it happy and glad I'm breaking my legs because I'm fearless .
You saying yes or no to my statments but yet have to see a bad outcome from a person that followed the steps I mentioned before ; if you can link a diary or something I would be intrested to read .
I am furthermore totally with you and your realism, your natural perspective of it and "fear" in period 3....
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Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley, altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.
I respect your opinion and I think we displayed each other position enough .
The only thing I would like to correct is that Paley has the biggest CLL center in the world and no death reported or patients/familiar who claimed such an outcome .
It is always full of CLL patients there so a death would never go unnoticed at such an institute !
U might be mistaking it with giotikas because I never ever heard of this .
I read a topic of a person complaining for Paley s service back in the 90s and kept trash talking him .
He might have made a bad decision and this is not a good thing ..but he is human and it wasn't a cosmetic case .
I invite you to rethink your position on Paley because it's never been a thing on those forums that Paley had a death
and it is written in his online page very clearly and no one ever contradicted that .
This is also why we compare him to other doctors because he had tons of cases and no deaths/serious complications like crippled people etc while others with less loads and years they happened to have poor outcomes .
This underlines that bad luck can be a thing but it's a lot about surgical skills and proper follow ups .
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Yes it's true I may have not a global view of your posts, I was some time away from the forum and only now was revieweing some of it and seeing your important contributions.
But you seem too radical sometimes when not minimising risks or not accepting some facts.
I keep insisting there was at least one death with Paley, altough I cannot rerence it here right now. And on the other hand, Guichet, together with him, is one of the most experienced and better surgeons in the world. I know that none of them report any serious complications or deaths ever, but it isn't even logical after decades of practice and complex surgeries.
If I misunderstood something else, I'm sorry.
Speaking of death if you can recall one guy that back then you had much hatreds of cuz he addressed thaat having Parkinson or Leukemia is better than being short then I'd tell you that guy is me and rn I am still stuck with this kind of thought and I think if there were 2 options death or living an under 5'5 life then I'd choose the former so death is not a problem for me at all.
Dunno since you can't prove yourself with a death case under Paley's hands why you are spouting Paley's caused at least 1 death case cuz Paley is just the surgeon what I am aiming for so I cannot let go of your unlogical statements sorry.
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I respect your opinion and I think we displayed each other position enough .
The only thing I would like to correct is that Paley has the biggest CLL center in the world and no death reported or patients/familiar who claimed such an outcome .
It is always full of CLL patients there so a death would never go unnoticed at such an institute !
U might be mistaking it with giotikas because I never ever heard of this .
I read a topic of a person complaining for Paley s service back in the 90s and kept trash talking him .
He might have made a bad decision and this is not a good thing ..but he is human and it wasn't a cosmetic case .
I invite you to rethink your position on Paley because it's never been a thing on those forums that Paley had a death
and it is written in his online page very clearly and no one ever contradicted that .
This is also why we compare him to other doctors because he had tons of cases and no deaths/serious complications like crippled people etc while others with less loads and years they happened to have poor outcomes .
This underlines that bad luck can be a thing but it's a lot about surgical skills and proper follow ups .
No need to dispute over an unfalsifiable case if you 2 don't mind me to say like that but if it would be death then I would accept if it would be disability then I couldn' although I still think being disabled is better than being short. Just don't wanna become disabled with my money and that is the reason why I don't hesitate to do LL not like common ppl. But you got it right and surgery outcomes comprise lucks, caregiving, skills and etc., instead of just either one of them.
BTW I am fixated on Paley's Option 3 and I was glad to have seen there are some cases of Option 3 on this website so I see hopes in my life rn.
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Most of tall people won't get this procedure done, so that problem will not exist.
Let people be free, if a tall person wants to be even taller, we should accept it.
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Most of tall people won't get this procedure done, so that problem will not exist.
Let people be free, if a tall person wants to be even taller, we should accept it.
I changed my thoughts and I confess my stupidities. I think it should be covered by medical insurance just for short patients and the shorter patients are the more the prices must be covered.
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I have to agree—not to mention tall people have even less motivation to undergo this kind of procedure.
perhaps some people enjoy living life as a spectacle. if this is indeed so, it may be natural to assume that if LL helped one achieve this distinction they'd view it as a rational decision.
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Speaking of death if you can recall one guy that back then you had much hatreds of cuz he addressed thaat having Parkinson or Leukemia is better than being short then I'd tell you that guy is me and rn I am still stuck with this kind of thought and I think if there were 2 options death or living an under 5'5 life then I'd choose the former so death is not a problem for me at all.
Dunno since you can't prove yourself with a death case under Paley's hands why you are spouting Paley's caused at least 1 death case cuz Paley is just the surgeon what I am aiming for so I cannot let go of your unlogical statements sorry.
Yes, I was shocked as I interpreted it as a general position towards every not tall people (as if all people shorther than X cm had worse lives than having dementias and so on).
But if it's your personal feeling of course I respect that and I'm sorry for your feelings.
Just let me say, though, that you seem to have fallen in an exaggerated situation of height neurosis. I don't think in general that psychotherapy can cure height neurosis but I would humbly suggest you tried to "balance" and get some support for better decisions having some counselling. I say that because of own experience, having height neurosis and because I find similarities in our feelings except reaching that point of comparison to Parkinson and cancer, so don't get offended, please.
Regarding at least one death with Paley (I say this "at least" because a minimal number of LL ers come here and surgeons themselves don't admit it (like Guichet) on their web pages), I read it here in this forum from a patient that was hospitalised at the same time. That's why it's not general knowledge, the patient who died never reached the "recover center" in Palm Beach where everybody is.
But it was due to thrombosis, and that can be minimised but not avoided by any surgeon, so it's part of the risks, I was not blamming the surgeon.
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Yes, I was shocked as I interpreted it as a general position towards every not tall people (as if all people shorther than X cm had worse lives than having dementias and so on).
But if it's your personal feeling of course I respect that and I'm sorry for your feelings.
Just let me say, though, that you seem to have fallen in an exaggerated situation of height neurosis. I don't think in general that psychotherapy can cure height neurosis but I would humbly suggest you tried to "balance" and get some support for better decisions having some counselling. I say that because of own experience, having height neurosis and because I find similarities in our feelings except reaching that point of comparison to Parkinson and cancer, so don't get offended, please.
Regarding at least one death with Paley (I say this "at least" because a minimal number of LL ers come here and surgeons themselves don't admit it (like Guichet) on their web pages), I read it here in this forum from a patient that was hospitalised at the same time. That's why it's not general knowledge, the patient who died never reached the "recover center" in Palm Beach where everybody is.
But it was due to thrombosis, and that can be minimised but not avoided by any surgeon, so it's part of the risks, I was not blamming the surgeon.
Alright thx for your sympathy from my bad feelings but for death, some extreme incels on this forum are plugging away with crazy statements like you don't deserve to live cuz you are short, height takes everything from us besides happiness, if I can't lengthen my tibias by 8cm I will kill myself and etc., so your revelation of Paley's death case doesn't make sense in their shoes cuz they would rather lose their lives than going on being short, let alone you yourself already think that was not Paley's fault.
But we can juxtapose CLL with plastic surgery, which also can lead to death accidentally, and even bad news about plastic surgeries are spread out on Internet at times, but patients are still managing to change theie faces through this surgery cuz they have been give lessons by the society about how important one's appearance is and that being said those who are really striving for getting taller also ignore bad news about CLL to do CLL to get taller.
So this world is mistreating ppl to this extent and we gotta have sympathy from those who wanna change their physical features running the risks caused by various surgeries.
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Alright thx for your sympathy from my bad feelings but for death, some extreme incels on this forum are plugging away with crazy statements like you don't deserve to live cuz you are short, height takes everything from us besides happiness, if I can't lengthen my tibias by 8cm I will kill myself and etc., so your revelation of Paley's death case doesn't make sense in their shoes cuz they would rather lose their lives than going on being short, let alone you yourself already think that was not Paley's fault.
But we can juxtapose CLL with plastic surgery, which also can lead to death accidentally, and even bad news about plastic surgeries are spread out on Internet at times, but patients are still managing to change theie faces through this surgery cuz they have been give lessons by the society about how important one's appearance is and that being said those who are really striving for getting taller also ignore bad news about CLL to do CLL to get taller.
So this world is mistreating ppl to this extent and we gotta have sympathy from those who wanna change their physical features running the risks caused by various surgeries.
Yes, that's the general picture.
But I think we and doctors must be attentive to different kinds of height or other body dysphorias. What I mean is that there are cases, for example one person in Brazil that did around 40 (its true!!!) plastic surgeries (nothing to do with CLL) with certainly non ethical doctors and she never stops, she never gets "satisfied". These are cases for psychiatrists and psychologists, not for plastic NOR orthopaedic surgeons. That's why I respect but makes me think (like many doctors) why a man over, let's say 1,70 m tall or specially around average like around 1,76 m, wants LL surgery. I always think he may have a kind of neurosis that nobody can be sure to disappear after LL. But this is me thinking, not judging.
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Yes, that's the general picture.
But I think we and doctors must be attentive to different kinds of dysphoria. What I mean is that there are cases, for example one person in Brazil that did around of 40 (its true!!!) plastic surgeries (nothing to do with CLL) with certainly non ethical doctors and she never stops, she never gets "satified". These are cases for psychiatrists and psychologists, not for plastic NOR orthopaedic surgeons. That's why I respect but makes me think why a man over, let's say 1,70 m tall or specially eround average like around 1,76 m wants LL surgery. I always think he may have a kind of neurosis that nobody can be sure to disappear after LL. But this is me thinking, not judging.
Agree on every word you say.
Surgeries that can change patients' physical features are very addictive and charming and if patients with dysphorias that can glue them onto this kind of surgeries forever then surgeries are way dangerous for them than for normal patients and I am really convinced that human is very difficult to be satisfied so that's another reason why I posted my methodology here to forbid average or even beyond average patients to achieve this surgery cuz the situations are essentially different for them from those patients who are really short and deserve this surgery.
Fortunately the benefits from height are capped and beyond a certain threshold, growing any taller cannot make sense like growing taller than 2m, unlike plastic surgery. The appearance has no threshold and of course the more beautiful/handsomer you are, the more benefits you can achieve from your apppearance, the main reason why patients are addicted to them, not to mention some unethnical web writers/surgeons are 'fearmongering' here and there and for sure we can figure out why some women are going mad about changing their appearances.