Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Patients Experiences => Topic started by: WishMeLuck on January 20, 2023, 05:25:57 PM
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Hi,
So I am starting to share some info here, basically to help others (this forum helped me (I hope end results will be good) to get to this point, so would like to share some info about my experience.
Feel free to ask any questions.
Story:
5"9, in my thirties. I discovered about LL about 12 years ago and found this forum (used to be called MakeMeTaller, getting slightly taller was always something I thought can benefit me.
Back then I basically decided internals are more interesting, and femurs due to faster recovery and less complications (I will give you my view about proportions later).
Back then according to my conclusions, Guichet and Betz were the main players, precise/stryde didn't exist, externals were not something I would do (I am not very short so I was looking for fast recovery with minimal suffering).
There were a couple of Guichet diaries here and I travelled to meet him and some of his patients that had diaries in this forum. I was impressed with their mobility and I thought this is a nice idea. I didn't have enough money back then, and I also believed even if I did I probably wasn't responsible enough to go through this (without telling anyone). So I continued with my life.
I started using lifts and that made me quite happy with my life, the tall effect was great (it works for sure - don't let anyone tell you it's not). However - lifts suck big time. Using them for years will also damage a lot of things in your feet.
As I became more succesfull, I started playing around with the idea of doing LL, and as I was still obsessing with height the idea always popped into my mind.
I decided I would do it, hoping and praying I will manage to get a gain without risking too much other aspects of my life (job, friends, family, athletic ability).
The week before making the decision and paying for this was exteremly hard, and I almost decided not to do it up until the last minute. In the end, I said to myself that something must have brought me here for a reason and this is a journey that I must take. Please pray for my sucess.
General views about this after surgery::
So, basically I would say that even tough I was reading this forum for years, it didn't prepare me well enough for this. Neither Guichet and his team, or meeting other patient. When you are an "outsider" to the experience, anything seems easier for you and you assume things will work out. But when you are part of it - it will test who you are and what you can endure.
This is not a cosmetic surgery (like boobs, nose or any other thing in which you do a surgery and being pretty passive after you recover). This is a process that I would describe like this:
- Turn yourself into a disabled person (very disabled because you break TWO limbs (this is rare even in accidents)
- Lengthen the limbs gradually in a process that will make you count minutes every day looking for the next day, stretching muscles in a way you never experienced before, as well as soft tissue like nerves and tendons. This is traumatic to the body
- Isolate yourself from your environment
- Complications can occur
- Even after you finish lengthening, you have a very long recovery process to come back to what you were (I assume 1 year on average).
This means I will only recommend it to people who HIGHLY suffer from height (shorter guys than me - I feel you). And you must be very strong mentally.
Don't imagine that you will pay for a surgery and some magic will make you taller. Be PREPARED for a very tough experience.
You CANNOT do this alone. You need a 24h helper (you can't reach your feet or get up sofas or beds so easily in the first days). You must learn all the small bits of living as a disabled person (there are many tricks you will need to learn).
Guichet and team
Basically the have a very strict and define protocol, which includes Gym training twice a day for stretching and strength of your lefts(they recommend training before surgery with the team - I believe this is a great idea but I haven't done this myself). Besides training, you need to eat 4000 calories a day, take supplements, comply to their diet, do bike 1.5h each day, and click 3 times a day using the G-Nail). You also need to document all of that every day (that would take more hours than what you will have in your day).
Guichet is not an easy guy, but he is a scientist at the heighest levels (he invented this nail and is still actively researching LL). He is a difficult person and would not be your psycologist or support but more like an army general always pushing you to work harder and not crying. Sometimes - that helps (I have my cases of feeling so weak I couldn't stand and after he pushed me to gym I was actually feeling better). But sometimes, it's also problematic and might miss some issues that solving them could benefit his patients. I do believe support is important so don't get me wrong.
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Check unicorn's insta first:
https://www.instagram.com/unicorn_gets_taller/?hl=de (https://www.instagram.com/unicorn_gets_taller/?hl=de)
Also do some research about Yush Gupta.
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How much cms of lifts were you using? Also, care to elaborate about the "tall effect" you mentioned?
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Great diary entry!
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More on Guichet and team
I was impressed with the improvements he made to his protocol. Basically, I remember that 10 years ago with Guichet, the surgery would include more hospitalization, more complications and slower recovery. Right now, what he calls "hyper fast track" lowered the hospital time from 3 nights to 0-1 night. I stayed 1 night, although I was expecting to stay 0. Will touch on that later.
Also, I believed that his focus on training prior to surgery and after is key for recovery, and respected him for that because I am sure it made him lose a lot of patients (most of us are lazy, and that's ok).
Guichet is still available to you after surgery, as well as his team. However, don't expect him to be your 24h companion.
You will receive a program with everything you need to do after surgery, including all medicine, training, post-op check, gym training times and you need to document everything you do.
He will tell you exactly what to do and he emphasizes one thing - Don't ever do anything, even not changing 1mg of medication, adding an exercise or clicking an extra click without letting him know. He want's to know everything and will not accept any deviation from his protocol, which he will show you statistically using research evidence, that is beneficial (he will walk you through all his number and statistics).
He claims all of his statistics that are constantly improving is due to him constantly trying to improve in every parameter (he said "I am an inventor, I always try to make things better").
His anesthesia protocol impressed me as well, he basically uses General + Morphine to the spine. The reason for using specifically morphine is that it will maintain muscle, thus you can use it after surgery to achieve things like riding the bike or walking stairs. In addition, they are now using some compound that doesn't make patients vomit (I didn't feel sick at all).
My Experience
So before surgery I was nervous like hell, I thought it is better to dissappear from earth. But I was still curious if that is possible, that I can become taller and get through this, and live my life after I recover as a taller "me". Eventually I said to myself the NIKE approach of "Just do it" and boom, I decided that the best way for me to make sure I go to surgery is to do fun stuff the night before and not sleep a lot, so I would be quite tired when entering and my brain will be on "automatic" mode.
Checked in at the hospital, met Guichet and the Anestesiologist, The OR was full of people (around 8 people) one of the male nurses put an IV in my hand, after several attempts to find a vein, then I heard the Anestesiologist say something like "let's inject it", and the next thing I know I open my eyes and I see that I'm in the recovery room (I think).
I was looking at my legs, I could move my toes, but I could not move my legs. Imagine you are using your brain to move them but they don't move. So I thought to myself - That's probably due to spinal anesthesia. Then I see Guichet, and I just told him that I think anesthesia didn't finish yet on my legs. He said: no that's not possible. I said by I cannot move my legs. He said of course, we need to activate the muscle. Next thing I know he grabs my knee and pushes it to my chest. I couldn't believe how heavy my legs were, they felt like I had a truck on me. Then he tells me to grab my calf and push it towards the femur. It was almost impossible but I managed to connect them. He said very good, and then I was able to move my legs a little, but they were super heavy and stiff.
You cannot imagine the level of stifness until you do it. It is something I never experienced before. The only way to move your leg is if you make the initial movement with your hand and then your leg will "learn" that movement.
Then Guichet showed me how to click my legs, but I was super dizzy and didn't even understood what he was saying or which leg we clicked (he said I should click the next one by myself later). I later decided it was the left and clicked the right one more the next day but who knows...
The feeling of heaving two broken legs is something I will never forget. You are basically disabled. I had to call nurses to move my blanket 1cm, or handle me water that is 5cm away. In addition, I decided I would put my feet at the bed, and it felt like the part of the bed where I was laying my feet is like a boat, or something that moves. I thought that might be a special bed for recovery of the legs. But I was WRONG - the feeling I had is me moving my fracture site, which is possible I believe because this is a ratcheting nail with some degree of freedom for the LEFT and RIGHT. Once I understood that, I understood that I basically have new legs now, that I don't even know how to operate.
Guichet and a PT wanted me to stand a use a walker, I tried and then I just opened my eyes and understood that I fainted. So I was to stay at the hospital for 1 night (I didn't want to leave). But some patients leave in the same day of operation.
I hired a helper (you MUST have somebody 24/7 with you, at least for the first period (I am still day 4 post op so can't say anything for after). So told her to come back tomorrow.
The night was difficult, I had to rely on nurses and couldn't move from the bed. I was happy my legs were not shaven (this will hide the scars more). also, I was very happy that I don't have a cathether. I didn't have a lot of pain, just feeling disabled was hard. I got a slight fever and was given an IV.
The feeling of disability was the hardest for me, as you are perfectly normal a few hours before, and now becoming handicapped. This is something you must be prepared for mentally and this is not a joke. It would last more time, and will improve gradually in slow steps over many months. Make sure you can handle something like this (don't think - I am so strong, be sure you are)
Key insights after doing LL
1. Most people in this forum are height obsessive (this is an obsession). I understood I was obsessed as well. LL will give you more perspective. People in the world don't walk around thinking about height 10 times a day (at least) like most of you. Try to see the world from their eyes to get better proportions. You might be doing wrong decisions also for the number of CM you want.
2. LL is not a magic surgery that will make you "a taller you". It should be described as: a bone lengthening making a specific bone segment in you longer and your other parts of the body above it will increase from their previous position. Be carefull not to LL to much.
3. Being disabled is rough, especially if you lived a normal and active lifestyle before. The more you did - the more you should prepare mentally to sacrifice that. If you are a loner, this might be easier for you.
4. You must be 100% sure you want to do this (90% is not good enough)
5. You must be mature enough and responsible for every aspect (additional costs, organization) everything that will make you achieve this and go through this safe. Any parameter that you would skip could cause a major complication.
That's it for now.
Please wish me luck
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Hi Limbfan2020,
I was actually aware of these cases, and it didn't make it any easier decision. However, I was more focused on the experiences of the patients that I met with my own eyes and on additional diaries in this forum that were more successful. I do believe that every medical procedure heavy as this has a rate of serious complications, and as more doctors will do it - the more cases that are unsuccessful will appear. It is something we should all take into account.
If you look carefully - you can find horror stories about every doctor. So this is part of the game. Don't think for a second that I don't believe these are very serious cases you have mentioned. But I found bad stories about all the other ones as well (Betz dissappearing and additional surgeries or complications/Horror stories from Turkey/And even complications from Paley and others), but what's common to all of the is that they are all still running and kicking with more patients still doing LL under their hands.
The fact that Giotikas also decided to use the G-Nail made me consider it even more, as this also increases the number of cases done by this method.
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How much cms of lifts were you using? Also, care to elaborate about the "tall effect" you mentioned?
I believe they were about 5cm.
You can test the "tall effect" very easily. Through in some lifts and go play around the world. You will see a difference in how the world perceive you in many ways.
I would also tell you that lifts really sucks - people notice them (some will tell you, so multiply 5X and get also the people that noticed and just didn't say anything). In addition, they give you a strange height effect, which is different than LL.
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I believe they were about 5cm.
You can test the "tall effect" very easily. Through in some lifts and go play around the world. You will see a difference in how the world perceive you in many ways.
I would also tell you that lifts really sucks - people notice them (some will tell you, so multiply 5X and get also the people that noticed and just didn't say anything). In addition, they give you a strange height effect, which is different than LL.
A total of 5cm or5cm insoles+height of boots?
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A total of 5cm or5cm insoles+height of boots?
Not counting boots. Just the insoles. I guess they would give you around 4cm as they have an angle.
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Thanks for sharing your experience.
As part of his stats did he share the number of deaths that have happened among his patients? If he didn't that would be quite disingenuous.
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So,
Basicaly you get 1cm during the operation, then you start clicking since the first day of surgery (there is not waiting period like I see here with other doctors). Clicking using the conventional method was easy for me for the first 2 days, but now at postop day 5,6 it has become harder for me. This is not due to pain, but due to my muscles being tight so I need to stay at that annoying position for more time until they relax. This increased stress a little, as one time I got a muscle contracting at the clicking position, heard the click, but it hurt as the muscle just contracted suddenly. ANY TIPS?
Guichet wants you to train all the time, and he says losing the most muscle is in the first week, so he wants you to do as hard as you can the first week (I was on the Eliptical machine the day after surgery).
At postop day 5, my legs were much stronger now (before, in order to raise them from the bed I need to do the first lift with my hands. Now I can control them better with my mind even without needing to kickstart them with a hand movement. Also I can move them much faster and stronger.
I have duckass since day 1 after op (anybody else had that so soon?
I am using the walker and now I feel pretty good with it. In order to train my walking (and not just lifting my body with my arms) I was suggested by Guichet to "Catwalk" - basically you walk leg crossing leg. He says if you walk like that since early stage, you will not get wide legs.
In my first week, I wasted all my strength on things that didn't contribute to my healing (entering a taxi took me 20 mins and sitting on the toiliet 15 mins). I was also very stressed from these things. Now I found better ways to do them (ordering a van and not regular taxi, getting a toilet sit lift).
I still keep my helper with me 24h, but for the last two days she went away for some hours so that's also an improvement.
Currently my biggest challenge is to find a way to click fast enough so I will not miss clicking sessions (I missed some already), whilst still keeping up with the crazy daily routine (2 gym training a day X2H, daily tests, and aslo eating 4k calories a day, taking all vitamins and supplements that Guichet requires.
All I care about is being as most efficient as I can, and continue lengthening.
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How do you have ur helper 24/7? Does she go away in her room until you need her or she's besides your bed all the time?
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How do you have ur helper 24/7? Does she go away in her room until you need her or she's besides your bed all the time?
I took an apartment with a big sofa bed in the living room. She is staying there. I believe I don't need 24h anymore since I feel much comfortable now and less stress. But having the first night at the hospital was amazing (nurses to move my legs and help me). And since 2nd night helper until night 5 helped me feel more relaxed.
I will keep her just for the day this week. And she is preparing all meals for me (amazing food)
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Thanks for sharing your experience.
As part of his stats did he share the number of deaths that have happened among his patients? If he didn't that would be quite disingenuous.
I didn't realise you're early in your journey and so sorry if this question was not in good taste.
I was just trying to respond to how you said the doc shows stats but I'm not sure if he shows all his prospective patients all the complications including death (there has been at least one). From what I know, he doesn't list this.
Anyway, most of his patients lengthen and recover the fastest among most doctors and I'm sure you'll fall into that category too. Good luck! Is this in Milano or Londra?
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I didn't realise you're early in your journey and so sorry if this question was not in good taste.
I was just trying to respond to how you said the doc shows stats but I'm not sure if he shows all his prospective patients all the complications including death (there has been at least one). From what I know, he doesn't list this.
Anyway, most of his patients lengthen and recover the fastest among most doctors and I'm sure you'll fall into that category too. Good luck! Is this in Milano or Londra?
Hi Ten,
Sure no worries :)
I know there has been a death with other docs as well. Death is not included in his statistics as a parameter, but I have asked him. He did not hide it from me and basically answered that there was one patient that ever died and that was due to things relevant to compression stocking and other things that the patient did not comply with.
I then discussed Guichet regarding the major complications (like thrombosis, and PE). He gave me very good explanations to how he deals with them in his protocol, and at what parts of the process they become a risk (not all of them are relevant and there are specific timeframes in which they could happen. (after my surgery, I was actually rolled to an ultrasound machine that scanned my major arteries for PE), Guichet said that risk something you would already know about right after surgery and they are carefully checking for this.
Being here in this situation, I try to comply with everything he says. When you are sent to an apartment even at the day of surgery, you are on your own. This can be highly risky. This is why you must fully comply and understand everything, there are so many details however that sometimes its not easy to do (you are not in your optimal state - you are disabled and after a major surgery). So - I can also understand why individuals could get to complications, basically if you fall into depression and staying away from the protocol, or the opposite (being too active and doing too much activities or the wrong ones and breaking something or the nail), I could have easily fallen out of one of these taxis.
Currently in Milan :)
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Guys any tips for clicking better and easier are welcomed! Please assist me if you have the knowledge.
Also how can I make my muscles less stiff. I am doing the regular stuff like bike exercise and stretching but still they are super hard to manuver.
I am at postop day 5
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There is this video if you've not seen it already
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjY6oAxLhHk
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I remember reading a Betz diary where the dude did his clicking in a bathtub with warm water. I have 0 experience though :)
If you do so much therapy, gym and all that, could you ask those guys to do your clicking when you're there?
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Guys any tips for clicking better and easier are welcomed! Please assist me if you have the knowledge.
Also how can I make my muscles less stiff. I am doing the regular stuff like bike exercise and stretching but still they are super hard to manuver.
I am at postop day 5
If I can help… I did Gnail in August with Giotikas. You seem to have had the same issue I had in clicking as in at about day 4 or 5 (can’t remember exactly), I started having great difficulty in “finding” the click and was ending up straining all my legs in the effort.
I was using the “conventional” that they teach you in hospital. That didn’t work for me.
See the videos below and perhaps go read around page 3 or 4 of my diary for a detailed explanation on “how” I managed to execute those (super duper slowly).
If you do it slowly is really almost painless.
See videos below
LEFT LEG
https://streamable.com/z4xgzo
RIGHT LEG
https://streamable.com/l4ys7j
Hope this helps.
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If I can help… I did Gnail in August with Giotikas. You seem to have had the same issue I had in clicking as in at about day 4 or 5 (can’t remember exactly), I started having great difficulty in “finding” the click and was ending up straining all my legs in the effort.
I was using the “conventional” that they teach you in hospital. That didn’t work for me.
See the videos below and perhaps go read around page 3 or 4 of my diary for a detailed explanation on “how” I managed to execute those (super duper slowly).
If you do it slowly is really almost painless.
See videos below
LEFT LEG
https://streamable.com/z4xgzo
RIGHT LEG
https://streamable.com/l4ys7j
Hope this helps.
Oz thanks a lot my friend! I am checking out your videos. I actually don't have an issue holding my legs like you do over there, but it is quite scary to twist it like that. I need to practice but it looks like a good alternative. Did you have any boundaries before you were able to do that?
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Man, no problems at all.
I did this:
The first time around I was super scared but I noticed that if I start twisting the leg very gently and slowly, it’ll get to a point where it just starts hurting (your muscles I guess)… and so as soon as I hit that point (could be 10…15 degrees, who knows) I stopped and left it there for a few seconds until the strain subsided.
Then once my leg relaxed at that angle (usually it took about 20 seconds or so) and I relaxed and the tension in my body eased off, I then pushed a little further until again, I started feeling a little pain (I never pushed it “through the pain”) and so I then repeated the same until at some point it’ll click
First time I really took a long time…. But then all subsequent sessions became exponentially easier.
One thing that may help the first few times is if you have pillows or some sort of support for the dangling leg, that’ll remove also the extra effort that your arms would have to do, so that you can really relax the leg and muscles as much as possible and just concentrate on gently twisting it
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Postop day 10
So basically I'm at 2cm now.
Training 2X time at the gym for 2 hour sessions each + 3X sessions of clicking in 8 hour intervals + eating 4000 calories a day + dealing with the fact that I have two broken bones and I am disabled is taking 99% of my time.
I have improved my movability, since I started elevating my legs more during my sleep and resting time (I had a lot of fluid in my legs and that helped to drain that and thus my movability improved).
Basically, it seems like one the main ideas about LL is:
- You train gym/PT and you feel much better afterwards, that improves your movability and recovery
- You click to lengthen the bone - That destroys what you accomplished above
You are in that circle. It is super difficult because you train very hard for 5-6 hours every day, but then some clicking sessions elongate your muscles and they quickly forget what they got.
The trainers here say that after you finish clicking, you need to continue the same training for 3 extra weeks and then the muscles will gain everything, since you don't stretch them more from the bone.
I am very tired and really want this to end soon. But I am giving everything I have (clicking at 2am in the morning is really hard)
I can't stress how hard it is to be disabled, not being able to lift something from the floor, or spending a lot of time on things that are trivial when you are normal.
Also - anyone of you considering a non-weight bearing method - please be carefull. I think that several months in a wheelchair i would have got shocked.
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Congratulations!
a) In Athens, we did not use a bicycle in the hospital
b) In Athens, we got a bicycle delivered to our place. Some people are able to mount it day 1 after leaving the hospital, some are not.
What was your experience like with these two things above?
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Congratulations!
a) In Athens, we did not use a bicycle in the hospital
b) In Athens, we got a bicycle delivered to our place. Some people are able to mount it day 1 after leaving the hospital, some are not.
What was your experience like with these two things above?
Hi,
So basically every patient of Guichet must have a bike in their residence and do 60-90 minutes of bike a day. You can split that time with biking at the gym, which I usually like more. Guichet says that biking is one of the most important things, because it drains our the fluid from you system and cleans the muscle system.
Guichet has about 4-5 bikes at this office so you just borrow one from him and they are being passed by the patients.
He will try to get you on a bike the same day of surgery, but if you are weak you would bike the day after. I was too dizzy the day of surgery and preferred to stay at the hospital for 1 night, leaving noon the day after.
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So, I had my 10 day postop X-ray. My bone is forming strong and Guichet decided to increase me to 10X3 click per DAY. this is a huge amount of clicking but he also wants me to catch up with about 20 clicks that I had missed so far. I believe 30 clicks a day will happen for about 2-3 days before he gets me back to 21 clicks again.
Basically, I expect to reach 4cm at 21 days postop. This is hyper fast. My goal is between 4-5cm, and I can't get to finish with the already.
The gym training by Guichet 2X times a day really proved itself. My legs feel really strong. I was able to walk without crutches around the apartment. I am currently not using any painkillers (I didn't use any besides the ones I received during surgery).
My sleeping is pretty descent, I actually expected it to be a lot worst from other diaries here. I manage to sleep 85% of my sleeping time. I usually wake up 1-2 times per night for about 5 minutes, move my legs a little in bed, and fall asleep again. I think this must be related to how Guichet is making us so tired with the gym training, that I am waiting just to go to sleep.
I might stop at 4.5cm, as this will get me to 181cm, and I just feel that clicks and lengthening are not easy for the body. I want to begin my recovery soon and start to gradually return to normal life.
In any case, I will not do more than 5cm, as I found that lowering the clicks at that stage would just take too long for me to get more height (from 5 to 6 is almost 1month, which is what I get from 0 to 4.5cm).
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So, I had my 10 day postop X-ray. My bone is forming strong and Guichet decided to increase me to 10X3 click per DAY. this is a huge amount of clicking but he also wants me to catch up with about 20 clicks that I had missed so far. I believe 30 clicks a day will happen for about 2-3 days before he gets me back to 21 clicks again.
Basically, I expect to reach 4cm at 21 days postop. This is hyper fast. My goal is between 4-5cm, and I can't get to finish with the already.
The gym training by Guichet 2X times a day really proved itself. My legs feel really strong. I was able to walk without crutches around the apartment. I am currently not using any painkillers (I didn't use any besides the ones I received during surgery).
My sleeping is pretty descent, I actually expected it to be a lot worst from other diaries here. I manage to sleep 85% of my sleeping time. I usually wake up 1-2 times per night for about 5 minutes, move my legs a little in bed, and fall asleep again. I think this must be related to how Guichet is making us so tired with the gym training, that I am waiting just to go to sleep.
I might stop at 4.5cm, as this will get me to 181cm, and I just feel that clicks and lengthening are not easy for the body. I want to begin my recovery soon and start to gradually return to normal life.
In any case, I will not do more than 5cm, as I found that lowering the clicks at that stage would just take too long for me to get more height (from 5 to 6 is almost 1month, which is what I get from 0 to 4.5cm).
This is a crazy fast lengthening. Is there any worry its too fast?
And what do you mean your bone is forming fast. Having consolidation 10 days post op is almost unfathomable. Do you see slight traces of bone formation or something? Id be really interested to see the x-rays but no pressure.
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1. what do you do for 2 hours per session twice a day in the gym?
2. what resistance do you put on the stationary bike when you bike 90 min per day? you put it at 1-2 out of 10 or 5 out of 10 maybe?
3. what is your natural sleeping position? are you usually a side sleeper?
4. do you find it comfortable to sleep on your side with a pillow between the knees or the bone breaks hurt in that position?
5. why do you plan for just 5cm? do you know your xray measurements of the femur and tibia?
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Hi,
So basically every patient of Guichet must have a bike in their residence and do 60-90 minutes of bike a day. You can split that time with biking at the gym, which I usually like more. Guichet says that biking is one of the most important things, because it drains our the fluid from you system and cleans the muscle system.
Guichet has about 4-5 bikes at this office so you just borrow one from him and they are being passed by the patients.
He will try to get you on a bike the same day of surgery, but if you are weak you would bike the day after. I was too dizzy the day of surgery and preferred to stay at the hospital for 1 night, leaving noon the day after.
This is something I prefer about Guichet honestly. Even though he is expensive and there was that lawsuit with unicorn, I think he's one of the best options for people who are near his locations (london, Milan, Paris, etc). Ex: trying to optimize various things about training/diet. It's good he has the bike/pedal machine ready in the hospital, it's like why not? It has benefit and basically zero downside for the patient + nurses around to help the patient mount it.
I think if I do tibias someday I think I will ask the (different) doctor in Athens to at least have a very small smooth magnetic pedal machine on the floor bedside in the hospital room you can use while sitting in bed. If any of you guys are thinking of doing any kind of LL surgery in Athens, I would recommend you ask the Athens doctor to have a small magnetic pedal machine on the floor you can use while sitting in bed in the hospital itself. I know that this diary is for Dr. Jean-Marc Guichet, not for surgeries in Athens, but there's the same clicking nail option (g-nail). It seems like Dr. Dimitrios Giotikas is willing to do it from what I asked but not enough people have asked him for him to bother with it.
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This is a crazy fast lengthening. Is there any worry its too fast?
And what do you mean your bone is forming fast. Having consolidation 10 days post op is almost unfathomable. Do you see slight traces of bone formation or something? Id be really interested to see the x-rays but no pressure.
Hi, I'll post the X-rays when I receive them digitally.
Basically, Guichet says that patients that go through his protocol might fuse very fast. He mentioned one patient that did 7.5cm and his bones were fused in 1 month! In addition, if you forget a couple of clicks you will get a phone call from Guichet himself yelling at you that your bones could fuse and that could become a pricy surgery, and that you must click as fast as he tells you too (Guichet is following everything you do, eat, breath using a one-drive spreadsheet, where you must enter all the data to yourself every day).
If you don't eat enough calories - he will call you. If you don't train enough - he will call you, if you are late for the gym - his secratery will call yelling at you.
He really believes in his protocol, so I just decided to blindly confide with it. That made be basically have 0 personal time (no tv, not fun, no nothing). I just train, eat, click, train, eat, click, train, train, stretch...
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1. what do you do for 2 hours per session twice a day in the gym?
2. what resistance do you put on the stationary bike when you bike 90 min per day? you put it at 1-2 out of 10 or 5 out of 10 maybe?
3. what is your natural sleeping position? are you usually a side sleeper?
4. do you find it comfortable to sleep on your side with a pillow between the knees or the bone breaks hurt in that position?
5. why do you plan for just 5cm? do you know your xray measurements of the femur and tibia?
1 - 2 hours per session in the gym includes bike, eliptical, and about 10 excercises and stretching routines, each with 50 reps.
2 - Guichet want's you to go maximum with the bike. So we are talking about at least 5 in the resistance (he will yell at you that you can do more and must increase so you will not lose you muscles).
3- naturally I am a side sleeper and never slept on my back (holding a girl besides me is usually the best when I have one :) ). Here, I am sleeping only on my back. If you train hard during the day until your eyes start to close on you - you will fall asleep this way.
4- side hurts because of the incisions, and also it is a big scary when you have a ratcheting nail because the leg could twist and this is something I am always afraid of.
5- I plan on going for 5cm because I just want to continue with my life and not walk around for months looking like a spider. I am not very short to begin with, that would take me to 181.5cm. I believe this is taller than Leonardo Dicaprio or Brad Pitt, and I don't think they suffer from height. So I think life is not just height and want to go back to focus on other things. I don't see investing an additional full month just for clicking to get to 6cm (more risk, more time off work, possible complications, harder recovery).
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So I am basically able to walk with crutches pretty well.
My only concern is sitting down on lower objects (sofa, chair, beds). I really need some good tips on how to do it, would appreciate any help.
Standing up from an object using the crutches seems easier (I put one hand on the object and second hand on on crutch and stand up).
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Hi, I'll post the X-rays when I receive them digitally.
Basically, Guichet says that patients that go through his protocol might fuse very fast. He mentioned one patient that did 7.5cm and his bones were fused in 1 month! In addition, if you forget a couple of clicks you will get a phone call from Guichet himself yelling at you that your bones could fuse and that could become a pricy surgery, and that you must click as fast as he tells you too (Guichet is following everything you do, eat, breath using a one-drive spreadsheet, where you must enter all the data to yourself every day).
If you don't eat enough calories - he will call you. If you don't train enough - he will call you, if you are late for the gym - his secratery will call yelling at you.
He really believes in his protocol, so I just decided to blindly confide with it. That made be basically have 0 personal time (no tv, not fun, no nothing). I just train, eat, click, train, eat, click, train, train, stretch...
wow that sounds incredible. by fused you mean fully consolidated in 1 month? 7.5 cm should take about 1 year to consolidate properly, this is beyond human capabilities on theory
ditto on the xrays, ive never seen a guichet xray before so im interested to see his recent work. you do know how unicorn got screwed right? she had a hairline fracture on the femur in the initial surgery on her right leg which was too much trauma for the bone to unite and then she started getting accidental clicks 20 times a day because there was no callus to provide some resistance and extended the entire nail on its own without union so yeah basically a horror story
1 - 2 hours per session in the gym includes bike, eliptical, and about 10 excercises and stretching routines, each with 50 reps.
2 - Guichet want's you to go maximum with the bike. So we are talking about at least 5 in the resistance (he will yell at you that you can do more and must increase so you will not lose you muscles).
3- naturally I am a side sleeper and never slept on my back (holding a girl besides me is usually the best when I have one :) ). Here, I am sleeping only on my back. If you train hard during the day until your eyes start to close on you - you will fall asleep this way.
4- side hurts because of the incisions, and also it is a big scary when you have a ratcheting nail because the leg could twist and this is something I am always afraid of.
5- I plan on going for 5cm because I just want to continue with my life and not walk around for months looking like a spider. I am not very short to begin with, that would take me to 181.5cm. I believe this is taller than Leonardo Dicaprio or Brad Pitt, and I don't think they suffer from height. So I think life is not just height and want to go back to focus on other things. I don't see investing an additional full month just for clicking to get to 6cm (more risk, more time off work, possible complications, harder recovery).
4. arent the incisions supposed to be small and its been 10 days? please let us know how your side sleeping goes, i couldnt side sleep for 2 months when i did tibia LON and it made me really unhappy during the process(other guys in the institute where i did it were able to side sleep with the frames on so it was my own problem overall).
5. are you shooting for 1 month to get to 5cm? and then about a month to "fuse"? what is your opinion on any potential nerve or tissue damage from faster than average of 1mm per day lengthening?
your diary might turb out to be the most interesting one we've seen in ages on here
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My only concern is sitting down on lower objects (sofa, chair, beds). I really need some good tips on how to do it, would appreciate any help.
Yes agreed, low objects can be annoying. When I was in pain, I would usually get a cushion/pillow on the corner of my bed, lower the walker leg lengths, sit on the pillow and then get up with the walker. And then once I was standing, I would grab the forearm crutches/crutches and switch to them in my room.
Someone gave me a tip for low surfaces: first grab the lower rungs of the walker, and then switch your hands to the usual handles. He used this strategy to get on / off these 1 foot high beds that were by a swimming pool
Since we're able to stand up, a forearm crutch user gave me the tip of shortening/lengthening the forearm crutches as need be when you're about to lower yourself onto a very low height surfaces. I am not exactly how that would work because for extremely low surfaces (ex: 1-1.5 feet high off the ground) I admit I just use a walker. However, I believe he most likely turns his back to the low surface. Then, while standing, he shortens his forearm crutches a bit. And then very slowly uses them to go from standing to sitting.
Shortening regular crutches while standing (right before lowering yourself onto a low height surface) also works but it's clunky and annoying if you drop a crutch. I wouldn't do it.
For regular crutches (not forearm crutches) in Athens, we generally form a triangle with the crutches two (soft armpit pad parts forming tip of top of triangle. The horizontal flat ground floor itself is the base of the triangle.) and then use that tip top part as a handle to help get up higher. This doesn't really work well on slippery surfaces since the crutches end up angled and just slide/messes with the triangle. I found a fist pushing up from my seat at the same time sometimes helps depending on how stable the surface is
I admit that if the surface is very very low on the ground and the ground is slippery, I just say screw it, and I get my walker to do the transfer
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Hi WishMeLuck,
Can you ask Dr Guichet for his opinion on nerve damage? It's understandable he wants you to click faster because you will preconsolidate but what about nerve damage? 4cm in 21 days seems like a lot. There has got to be some reason why he thinks it's ok to do this as per protocol. Maybe he has some published research that we don't know of?
And congrats on almost reaching your goal already. It must feel great to put this behind you soon.
Thank you
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Do you not feel much pain when clicking? I'm curious since you said you stopped using pain medication.
Also, why is 0 - 5cms so fast, but 5 - 6cm takes one month?
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I can write a diary describing my trip to space just by writing. You have no pictures or videos. I think this diary is fake. Let me tell you before you write, with the leg picture and video, no one is exposed and who it is can never be found. Also, although this is a difficult operation, there are many people who share pictures and videos. I prefer to read video diaries with pictures rather than just reading articles. Good luck on your journey.
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Hi WishMeLuck,
Can you ask Dr Guichet for his opinion on nerve damage? It's understandable he wants you to click faster because you will preconsolidate but what about nerve damage? 4cm in 21 days seems like a lot. There has got to be some reason why he thinks it's ok to do this as per protocol. Maybe he has some published research that we don't know of?
And congrats on almost reaching your goal already. It must feel great to put this behind you soon.
Thank you
So basically Dr Guichet recommends on different protocols to different patients (he aknowledges that caucasians have higher bone healing rate than asians - you can see he also answered that in one of his interviews in this forum). You basically start clicking from the first day of surgery! he distracts 1cm which is 150 clicks. Than in the same day you need to do 3 clicks after you wake up and another 3 at night. After that, you have another day of 3x3, another day of 5x3, and then you just continue with 7x3 per day for about 3 weeks. he will lower that afterwards to 5x3. and after 5cm to around 3x3.
Of course - that could change based on your comments (nerve pain, other pain etc.). For me I didn't feel any of these pains, I just felt it is harder for me to click (the click is harder to get and I use more force). So he said I might fuse and I need to increase.
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Do you not feel much pain when clicking? I'm curious since you said you stopped using pain medication.
Also, why is 0 - 5cms so fast, but 5 - 6cm takes one month?
Hi, see my above comment regarding clicking rates.
I do feel pain which I describe as 2-4 when clicking (out of 10). Guichet makes you describe on a spreadsheet every clicking session in terms of 1-10 for your pain and 1-10 for your stress, and also the time it took you to click. He monitors it all rigorously.
Regarding why the beginning is faster - Guichet said that your body can give more in the beginning.
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So, Basically I'm at 2.3cm and I am now using a lot of force for my clicking - they don't come easy anymore.
Guichet said that it is because the bone is starting to fuse, and if I increase the clicking rate it will become easy afterwards again.
Did anyone experience with difficulty of clicking after some easy time?
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So basically Dr Guichet recommends on different protocols to different patients (he aknowledges that caucasians have higher bone healing rate than asians - you can see he also answered that in one of his interviews in this forum). You basically start clicking from the first day of surgery! he distracts 1cm which is 150 clicks. Than in the same day you need to do 3 clicks after you wake up and another 3 at night. After that, you have another day of 3x3, another day of 5x3, and then you just continue with 7x3 per day for about 3 weeks. he will lower that afterwards to 5x3. and after 5cm to around 3x3.
Of course - that could change based on your comments (nerve pain, other pain etc.). For me I didn't feel any of these pains, I just felt it is harder for me to click (the click is harder to get and I use more force). So he said I might fuse and I need to increase.
Thanks for the answer. I think it's clear his goal is to make LL as quick a process as possible. He wrote this paper called "The cosmetic dream and future of lengthening procedures" where he talks about where he wants LL to be and all the steps he takes to increase the rate of bone healing. I also get the feeling he is "experimenting" in this space.
My only qualm with all this is that he does not list nerve damage in his complication statistics. It would be surprising if it is 0% after his hundreds of cases.
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Great post!
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2.7cm
Clicking is still hard for me. In the left leg I am using a lot of force and I feel a lot of tension inside the leg from the muscles when I am twisting the leg. On the right I also feel pain in the fracture sight and it is quite painful. I feel like the leg is going to explode and then "click" and suddenly the tense muscles stop.
I am using the conventional clicking method (leg on high pillows). I wasn't able to click in the method used by Ozboy (holding leg up and twisting it).
I also tried biking more before I click, using a massage gun and using Arnica which is a muscle relaxing cream. Still it didn't really help sadly.
I think my main struggle is clicking. I am also quite bored with the routine of training so much, stretching eating and clicking and really want to go back to my normal life. I hope to reach 4.5cm and finish this, but every day is a struggle. If I could solve my clicking issue I could earn more hours in the day and feel less "robotic"
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Man, stay strong and committed. One mistake I made was to let myself go around the 3cm mark.
I got a bit lazy with stretching and strengthening and I’m still paying for it now.
Keep this process your main focus until the end and during the first month of consolidation and then you’ll come out a new man on the other side.
Life is beautiful “up” here (lol)
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Thanks for the answer. I think it's clear his goal is to make LL as quick a process as possible. He wrote this paper called "The cosmetic dream and future of lengthening procedures" where he talks about where he wants LL to be and all the steps he takes to increase the rate of bone healing. I also get the feeling he is "experimenting" in this space.
My only qualm with all this is that he does not list nerve damage in his complication statistics. It would be surprising if it is 0% after his hundreds of cases.
Ten I agree with you. And nerve damage happens for sure, because I personally know about one patient here that lost sensation in a specific are even after 1 year post op. Guichet showed me so many statistics (he will flood you with those at his consultation appointments, that I can't even remember if nerve damage was present). However, in the surgery consent form, nerve damage is mentioned as a potential complication.
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So,
Today I met Guichet and we discussed my current state, my expectations and where this is going.
I mentioned how hard clicking is for me, and Guichet still believes that I need to increase the number of clicks (and not any specific medication should be used). He did gave me a couple of Naproxene pills, but said not to take them, only if clicking will be much harder.
We discussed my gym training. Basically, in 3 weeks I attended 30 gym training sessions, as well as done 30 home trainings (I am training 4 times a day, 2 at the gym and then additional 100-200 reps of each excercise at home).
This hectic schedule was very difficult for me physically and mentally. Guichet didn't make it any easier (I was constantly late for the gym), he just ordered his trainers and me that if I will be late more than 20 minutes the trainers should leave. I hated him and loved him for this, it sucks but it also worked and I was so scared that I ran around like crazy to reach the training sessions on time.
One thing I know for sure - no matter how much pain I have, and sometimes I can barely walk to the gym as my lags are super heavy from the night, but once I finish his gym training - I have zero pain and I am walking much better right after the first training. After the second training - I walk almost normally. This is crazy and makes me respect his crazy army approach, because you can just see the difference.
We also laughed that I actually did the eliptical machine the day after surgery (he believes I'm the current holder of this world record). To be honest - I was in such a shock that I would do anything he asked. But I did do it. Right now it's also one of my favourite excercises (you really feel it helps your walking afterwards).
Guichet will also fix every little detail about what you do - how you walk, bend, sit, sleep, use crutches, turn. You also feel like you are not good enough, but his tips are always good and you feel much better after. Also, his knowledge of the nail and what kind of movements can damage the ratchet is amazing and he will fix everything you do in order to maintain the nail functionality.
I came to him asking for pain medication (wanted to drug myself out of this hard situation). He basically said that they don't really work (other patients here did confirm this to me). He said just to continue training and his protocol and that's it.
Well I know for sure that my gym manuvers are excellent right now (you would not see that I have broken legs and I have quite high range of motion). I am following this protocol (he tracks everything I eat as well and comments on that). I do feel quite strong, but mentally exhusted.
This thing will test you.
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Ten I agree with you. And nerve damage happens for sure, because I personally know about one patient here that lost sensation in a specific are even after 1 year post op. Guichet showed me so many statistics (he will flood you with those at his consultation appointments, that I can't even remember if nerve damage was present). However, in the surgery consent form, nerve damage is mentioned as a potential complication.
From what I distinctly remember it's not listed in the statistics he shows. Please be vigilant and if you develop any sensations please let him know. Nerve pain can be exasperating. The medications used to control it cause side effects so you would be in hot soup if you get chronic nerve pain.
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We also laughed that I actually did the eliptical machine the day after surgery (he believes I'm the current holder of this world record).
Congrats!
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However - lifts suck big time. Using them for years will also damage a lot of things in your feet.
I can only speak anecdotally but I used lifts every single day, in every boot I wore for a good 7 years and the only “damage” it did to me is that my calves were a bit tight when I started lengthening and had to stretch them additionally for the first 4 weeks then I could drop it (i did femur LL). I never had any issues ever, not even in sports. I still heavily stand behind the sentiment that if someone wants to be taller and feels confident with lifts they should wear them for the rest of their lives instead of ever touching LL. (No one ever noticed my lifts too btw). It’s too extreme of a surgery and you sacrifice a lot when you do it. if I was confident enough to not think about height anymore with lifts I would have never ever done this.
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hi
does Guichet have any restriction on taking patients who have anxiety/depression?
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I can only speak anecdotally but I used lifts every single day, in every boot I wore for a good 7 years and the only “damage” it did to me is that my calves were a bit tight when I started lengthening and had to stretch them additionally for the first 4 weeks then I could drop it (i did femur LL). I never had any issues ever, not even in sports. I still heavily stand behind the sentiment that if someone wants to be taller and feels confident with lifts they should wear them for the rest of their lives instead of ever touching LL. (No one ever noticed my lifts too btw). It’s too extreme of a surgery and you sacrifice a lot when you do it. if I was confident enough to not think about height anymore with lifts I would have never ever done this.
I think you have a good point, which I could have only understood after I went through LL myself (before you break your legs your height suffering is much worse than after, where you get more proportion about height, life and all). Lift sucks for sure, but LL is super serious, dangerous, painful and more.
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hi
does Guichet have any restriction on taking patients who have anxiety/depression?
He actually works with two professional psychiatrists, one who you must have consultation with before LL, but also after your LL you will have at least two meetings with a psychiatrist, and I am sure you can have more. I suggest you contact him.
From my experience I can tell you that LL will take you to the extreme. You will lose your autonomy, you will be in pain, and you will be in a situation that you have probably never been before. This is an extreme change which could target depression. I love the fact that you are honest about it and checking carefully that this can be suitable for you with your mental state. Keep that up! consult with specialists carefully before. and speak to other patients as well.
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How are you getting on these days? You must be past 3.5CM now no?
We had the exact same clicking issues and Im now in the process of winding down lengthening after about 32mm.
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I can only speak anecdotally but I used lifts every single day, in every boot I wore for a good 7 years and the only “damage” it did to me is that my calves were a bit tight when I started lengthening and had to stretch them additionally for the first 4 weeks then I could drop it (i did femur LL). I never had any issues ever, not even in sports. I still heavily stand behind the sentiment that if someone wants to be taller and feels confident with lifts they should wear them for the rest of their lives instead of ever touching LL. (No one ever noticed my lifts too btw). It’s too extreme of a surgery and you sacrifice a lot when you do it. if I was confident enough to not think about height anymore with lifts I would have never ever done this.
I get what you're saying (LL is hard and think seriously about it) but as an alternative lifts are really not a substitute for being taller. Nothing is.
You invite friends over or go to their home and you take your shoes off. You have a significant other and she sees you with shoes off. You go to the beach or on a boat and shoes are off. Like what are you going to do, always wear shoes forever even in your bed lol. And people pick up on it faster than you realize.
I never wore lifts for this reason, it just doesnt make any sense and they're extremely uncomfortable. And when people find out you're wearing them you look like even more of a clown than just being short. I know this will piss off a lot of people but thats my honest opinion.
If you're short you basically have 2 options:
1) Get jacked and own it. Basically become a battle gnome.
2) get LL
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UPDATE?
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UPDATE?
I would like to update this fake diary with your hijab mother at home. Troll turco.
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:( because the forum went down WishMeLuck might have stopped visiting entirely
I really wanted to hear an update from him
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Hi,
So I wanted to update about my current situation. I remember I always hated when people would finish their diaries and disappear. Well, they probably don't want to think about LL any more again! and go on with their lives (because this is not over!).
So, the crazy thing that was the lengthening itself was behind me. In addition, now it is 2.5 months since I stopped clicking. The first month after I stopped I was basically a disabled person walking with crutches in the street (barely). At night pain and waking up several times at night. the first month is far from being normal. 2nd month I started to walk more normally. Dr Guichet was mad at me that I am using crutches so I ditched them and initially it was very difficult. I would calculate every step, I was very slow, and also very afraid from falling in the street (going up or down one stair is very scary without your crutches!).
I used to bike every day and suffer from a lot of pain. After that, I started to do eliptical every day.
Right now, I am walking normally and starting to also do some weight machines at the gym. However, running is still impossible ( I can't lift my legs and I can't do the "bouncing" motion of running.
Still after meeting several patients online, they think my healing is crazy well. But for me - I want to get back to fully normal.
This is one of the most difficult things I ever did, and it is still not over (I used to run every week 10-14km x2, now I cant even run 50m). Also, you need surgery to remove the nail after 1 year and I am a bit traumatized from the whole thing.
This will test how strong you are, especially if you have a normal life before LL (you have more to lose).
For very short people - you might benefit from it because it is relatively safe.
For taller people - this will test how crazy you are...
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Thanks for the update. Did you reach your goal of 5cm?
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If you have recent imaging data please put it at this thread. Redact any information that could be used to dox you.
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i wonder how much the guy lengthen and did he stop early because of pain. i need at least 5 cm.
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Were you given blood thinners (xarelto) throughout lengthening? it seems there are 3 deaths with this nail and all were because the patient was not taking blood thinners. has guichet decided to give blood thinners to his patients now?