Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Information About Limb Lengthening => Topic started by: whysoserious on December 10, 2013, 11:17:45 AM
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Hey guy, im newbie here.
I want to ask what is the long term effect of LL. I mean in the future there must be an impact cause by LL(stretching our nerves,tissues,muscles,etc). Does anyone know about this? Like maybe premature arthritis or something
I really want to do LL but im a bit curious about what will happen in the future like 10-20years.
Thanks,
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod
I've been doing some google and apparently every LL will or have some problems with their knee.
But then on the forums people say they're doing very fine...
It's a very good topic to discuss with.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod
I've been doing some google and apparently every LL will or have some problems with their knee.
But then on the forums people say they're doing very fine...
It's a very good topic to discuss with.
The important thing to know is that there are very few (honest) LLers staying around posting about their experience years after they've finished it all. SDOW on this forum is among the exceptions. Maybe they'll all encounter more or less serious long-term problems eventually, but won't know it until a few years or more have passed. And then I doubt most of them would bother returning to these forums to tell about it.
Maybe Dr. Franz, the orthopedist surgeon here, can say something about it.
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Franze already said 1/4 people will have permanent knee pain. Scared as fk because one of my knees hurts to move/lift and hasn't improved at all since surgery...
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On this forum Dr. Birkholtz said tjat among those who get an intramedullary rod put in after lengthening, 50% of them will have permanent knee pain. You will also have to worry about other things, like getting compartment syndrome possibly, or developing arthritis - improper fixation of the fibula being one of the things that can cause it. Complications also potentially increase the more you lengthen.
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On this forum Dr. Birkholtz said tjat among those who get an intramedullary rod put in after lengthening, 50% of them will have permanent knee pain.
No he didn't. Don't correct me when your wrong and the source is two clicks away, it's not a good look.
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No he didn't. Don't correct me when your wrong and the source is two clicks away, it's not a good look.
He wasn't trying to correct you, chill out.
Whether it's 25% or 50%, the information is worth a second read for anyone interested in Limb Lengthening.
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=137.0
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No he didn't. Don't correct me when your wrong and the source is two clicks away, it's not a good look.
(http://www.assetstorage.co.uk/AssetStorageService.svc/GetImageFriendly/721367416/511/680/0/0/1/80/ResizeBestFit/0/FRU/0B3D4610B9E11FA8FA999525757FC58A/neil-degrasse-tyson-reaction.jpg)
I hadn't read your response, I was replying to the first post of the TC. Also, it's easy to see where the mix up happened with Dr. Birkholtz's quote "Apart from the reaming and potential infection risks, tibial nails have around a 50% chance of persistent knee pain. Only half of these patients improve when nails are removed." I didn't remember the second part of that response, just the 50% chance of persistent knee pain. Relax.
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Dr. Birkholtz's quote "Apart from the reaming and potential infection risks, tibial nails have around a 50% chance of persistent knee pain. Only half of these patients improve when nails are removed." I didn't remember the second part of that response, just the 50% chance of persistent knee pain. Relax.
I can see why that answer could be open for interpretation. It's best to ask Dr Birkholtz directly for clarification when it's something that's concerning enough. Here's how I interpreted it.
There's a 50% Chance of persistent knee pain after the tibial nails are inserted. Of those patients who have knee pain complication, only half (50%) had improvement (pain free?) when the nails were removed.
Love that picture, but you can't beat this video. It shall be posted everytime anybody need to chill out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmv3WlKa6U8
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Here is my question to Dr. Franz Birkholtz.
I would also like to clarify the numbers you gave for tibia lengthening. Are you saying 50% of patients will experience knee pain throughout their life using LON, LATN or internal nail for tibia lengthening?
Here is Dr. Franz Birkholtz answer.
The anterior knee pain rates quoted is unfortunately permanent.
There seems to be come confusion over the numbers.
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There is no confusion, just people with poor comprehension and others taking quotes out of context. Franz was very clear honestly. Undoubtedly some will read this thread and make massive life changing decisions, sorry for wanting to make the information to be accurate? Didn't really mean the post to be over hostile though.
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The point is that there are some permanent "complications" after LL.
Question is: how can we prevent/treat it? I wonder why it's the knee, gotta do some more research.
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The point is that there are some permanent "complications" after LL.
Question is: how can we prevent/treat it? I wonder why it's the knee, gotta do some more research.
Doflamingo,
The patellar tendon is split in order to insert IM nails into the knees. This is an important tendon for knee flexion, and doesn't always heal properly from the operations to insert and remove nails. Dr. Franz kindly provided us the statistics regarding the percentage of patients who end up with permanent knee pain.
Unfortunately, there is no other way to insert a lengthening nail into the tibia. So if you do, LON, LATN, or internal lengthening you run a high risk of being stuck with permanent knee pain. It's just the harsh reality of LL, and, unlike the old forum, here we believe that it's best to disclose this BEFORE a prospective lengthener jumps the gun and gets nails inserted.
Your best bet to minimize your chances of permanent knee pain is to do external fixation ONLY and not remove the frame until your bones have fully consolidated. You should do this with a weight-bearing frame (like the Taylor Spatial) and walk and stand, or your muscles will completely atrophy during lengthening, and you run the risk of getting severe ballerina foot. Unfortunately, given your particular time constraint of 2-3 months to do LL, externals-only may not be a feasible option, and you may have to run the risk of getting permanent knee pain or forego LL altogether. The choice is ultimately yours, but please take the time to become as informed as possible.
Best wishes,
Tall
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Thanks Tall.
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From the old forum, the Dictator deleted a post from Shorty who request for removal of his LL photos, they ignored patient rights to privacy. Screw them!
Questions from Member
1) If you do LL in your tibias, will this somehow also have impact on your upperleg (for eg: shortening in the muscle hamstring)?
2) Is LL the cause of x and o legs? If yes, how to treat or prevent it?
3) Pinbending is caused by standing; let's say I'll only do 5cm but I'd rather not have any pinbending and yet I want the best for my soft tissues, what should I do? I was thinking of simply stretching in bed, or isn't that enough? Any suggestions please.
4) Will take supplements make you heal faster? (multivitamin, calcium, protein, ...)? I'm planning to take them (limited).
5) Are ballerinas and duck-asses treatable on a natural way (no operation) after LL? Or is it forever?
6) How do you take showers with external devices on your legs? Cover them with plastic (wouldn't the water come it?)
7) After frame removal, how long do you have to stay in bed before walking?
8-) Do you lose some cm after removal the internal&externals? Let's say I want 5cm, how long should I lengthen to be sure? 6cm?
Answers from The Dictator:
1. Yes. Muscles in your upper and lower legs are connected by tendons, ligaments, fascia and other soft tissues. When you lengthen one part of your leg it stretches these tissues throughout your leg. Each stretches to a different degree. Your hamstring will stretch also, which is why it is important to do physical therapy and weight bearing while you lengthen.
2. X-Legs (Genu valgum) and O-Legs (Genu varum) naturally occur in the legs of some people and can be corrected during leg lengthening. It can also be caused by leg lengthening if it is done improperly.
3. Stretching in bed is not enough to keep yourself from getting ballerina foot (Equinus contracture) while lengthening tibias for most people. Weight bearing and direct pressure on the soft tissues is what keeps the body closest to its natural state of use and is the best way to prevent it. Pin bending is common for patients that lengthen with an Illizirov Frame if they weight bear on that frame while lengthening. How much depends on many factors. It is better to have pin bending and lengthen a little longer than to sit in bed for months on end and then have a long recovery from ballerina foot.
4. Eating properly will help you heal faster than taking supplements and not eating enough of the nutrients you need. Food contains vitamins that are eminently more absorbable than a multi-vitamin pill.
5. You are much better off preventing ballerina foot (Equinus contracture) and duck-ass (Hyperlordosis) in the first place. This can be done to a different degree in every patient with daily physical therapy, weight bearing, and safe physical activity that involves the legs (pilates, yoga, exercise bike). Rarely is surgery necessary to remove the condition if you get it. Weight bearing over time (by walking) will resolve the issue almost all of the time.
6. Most doctors have their patients cover the frames with some sort of plastic cover.
7. This varies with each patient. Do not expect your result to be exactly the same as another patient. Your doctor can give you a guideline for what is common, but this is very individual.
8. This tends to be very little. I have seen some people claim as much as .5 CM but I have not seen evidence of it.
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Questions from Member
1) what can you tell about the knee damage after LL? Ive heard many LL will suffer from knee pain in future.
2) is there a way to speedup your recovery time (beside eating, drinkin, exercising,...)?
3) im going to do tibias in summer with lon, all ill do is train my muscles (legs) and stretch a lot, are there any other suggestion to prepare myself?
4) do you recommend sringari? Because he's the only one in my price range Sad. (Gotta do in summrr 2014, now or never).
5) please correct me if wrong: ballerina is caused by lack of physio during LL, but it can be "cured" after ll right?
Answers from the Dictator
1. I have seen a lot of LL patients, and almost all of them have fully recovered. The only one I know of personally that had serious knee problems did external femur lengthening and had a lot of problems. I would avoid external femur lengthening if you can. I had pain in my knees after LL but it went away. If you lengthen a reasonable amount and are religious with your physical therapy then you should be fine.
2. No. The less you lengthen the faster you will recover, but there is no magic bullet to make your body heal faster if you are healthy and doing everything right. You sure as hell can slow it down by doing everything wrong.
3. No. Have strong legs, good health, good flexibility and prepare your self mentally for the pain and difficulty of LL and you will do fine.
4. I have met and spoken to Dr. Sringari and we talked extensively about patient care (I had just fought with Dr. Sarin about that same topic and it was fresh on my mind). I believe he is a good doctor and is doing a good job for his patients so far. I am keeping an eye on him as best as I can from half way around the world. ( This part is BULL ) :)
5. Ballerina is caused by your ligaments being stretched because the bone they are attached to is getting longer and they cannot adapt quickly enough. They are forced to stretch and adapt by the forced stretching of physical therapy and weight bearing.
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The patellar tendon is split in order to insert IM nails into the knees.
Unfortunately, there is no other way to insert a lengthening nail into the tibia.
Wrong! Well trained surgeons almost never split the patella tendon to insert an IM nail for tibia lengthening. That is why Dr. Sarin split the patella tendon because he is not well trained. Well trained surgeons go around the patella tendon. If you actually read what Dr. Birkholtz said then you would know that splitting the patella tendon or going around the tendon is not the cause of the life long knee pain. It's the change in the structure of the bone after reaming the tibia.
Nobody really seems to know. Initially we thought it may have do do with whether you split the patella tendon to insert the nail. Going through or next to the tendon does not seem to make a difference though.
It probably is multifactorial, but may have something to do with the change in threedimensional architechture of the proximal tibia as a result of the nail. Put in layman's terms: it's probably because we make a huge hole and shove a piece of metal down it!
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Wrong! Well trained surgeons almost never split the patella tendon to insert an IM nail for tibia lengthening. That is why Dr. Sarin split the patella tendon because he is not well trained. Well trained surgeons go around the patella tendon. If you actually read what Dr. Birkholtz said then you would know that splitting the patella tendon or going around the tendon is not the cause of the life long knee pain. It's the change in the structure of the bone after reaming the tibia.
Thanks for correcting this misunderstanding, Rivers. Still, the risk of permanent knee pain is directly caused by putting IM nails in the tibiae, so the only way to avoid that would be do use external fixation exclusively, correct?
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But how about internal femurs? Is the chance on me ending up with a knee pain after doing internals on femurs as big as for doing internal tibias?
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Hi everybody,
To ascertain the long-term effects of LL one has to look at different scenarios. The worst case is being crippled for life, amputations, chronical infections, chronical pains, premature arthritis, etc. The best case is being taller without any negative long-term effects. Everybody hopes for the latter, but what if something out the worst happens? There will be no plan B. And there won't be any going back to the state before LL. Therefore anybody considering LL should be really aware of those risks and really imagine what could happen. Are you really willing to gamble with your health?
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Wrong! Well trained surgeons almost never split the patella tendon to insert an IM nail for tibia lengthening. That is why Dr. Sarin split the patella tendon because he is not well trained. Well trained surgeons go around the patella tendon. If you actually read what Dr. Birkholtz said then you would know that splitting the patella tendon or going around the tendon is not the cause of the life long knee pain. It's the change in the structure of the bone after reaming the tibia.
In the quote from Franz he says it doesn't make a difference whether it's split or pulled aside, you have the same result, so what does it matter? Is this more anti-Sarin fiction from old forum like that whole c-cut business?
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so in general it seems that the external method is the safest in term of permanent knee problem and pain ,right
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Hi everybody,
To ascertain the long-term effects of LL one has to look at different scenarios. The worst case is being crippled for life, amputations, chronical infections, chronical pains, premature arthritis, etc. The best case is being taller without any negative long-term effects. Everybody hopes for the latter, but what if something out the worst happens? There will be no plan B. And there won't be any going back to the state before LL. Therefore anybody considering LL should be really aware of those risks and really imagine what could happen. Are you really willing to gamble with your health?
Crippled and amputations are the reason why i havent done my LL. Those 2 are the worst case scenario. But i dont know, if u go to a good surgeon, u wouldnt get that.
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Crippled and amputations are the reason why i havent done my LL. Those 2 are the worst case scenario. But i dont know, if u go to a good surgeon, u wouldnt get that.
Right. If you go to a good surgeon, probably not. Based on Professor Xia's LL record, I calculated that my risk of being crippled was 0.002%.
But there is always some small risk, nobody will deny that.
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Let's just put it this way- you have a 10x higher chance of being crippled on your drive to the hospital than you do under the knife.
As far as long term effects, I think Dr. Birkholtz was on the money with 25% of people having lifelong knee problems. I'm a little scared of that myself, since I already have pretty bad knees.
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Every surgery is a risk, the odds of being crippled and amputations from LL is very very low if you have a good Doctor. Main concern will be recovery of walking and sporting ability.
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Let's just put it this way- you have a 10x higher chance of being crippled on your drive to the hospital than you do under the knife.
As far as long term effects, I think Dr. Birkholtz was on the money with 25% of people having lifelong knee problems. I'm a little scared of that myself, since I already have pretty bad knees.
Same here. I can easily stomach a 0.002% chance of being crippled, but hate to think of the 25% chance of permanent knee pain. That's really high in my book. Personally, I am very short, but also very athletic. It sucks to know that you can't be the person you want to be, at least socially-speaking, because of a physical limitation like short stature, unless you run a high risk of trading it for another physical limitation that would also inhibit you from becoming your dream self (potentially severely diminished athleticism). I just wish we could have the best of both worlds, and this forum is a huge leap in helping us be informed enough to achieve that.
My thoughts now are that exclusively external LL, with a fully weight-bearing frame, followed by stem cell injections during consolidation may be the safest route for those seeking to avoid knee pain. I have also heard that Dr. Salameh's patented fixator involves inserting pins in a way that completely avoids muscles. I don't know how true this is, but, if true, it might really facilitate complete recovery.
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None of the external tibia fixators have pins going through the muscle. That only happens if the surgeon is incompetent and can't aim the pins properly.
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Tall,
Kinda curious to hear more about your athleticism. What sport(s)? To make this board more of a community, there should be a section where we can just post threads intro'ing ourselves (maybe talk about why we're here in the first place) and revealing some key info we don't mind sharing. That would be pretty neat to have. :)
My gameplan right now is to get femurs first done in May 2014 with PRECICE and then move on to either LON or external tibiae within a year (of course, nothing works according to your plan). Stem cells + externals sounds like a great idea too.
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Tall,
Kinda curious to hear more about your athleticism. What sport(s)? To make this board more of a community, there should be a section where we can just post threads intro'ing ourselves (maybe talk about why we're here in the first place) and revealing some key info we don't mind sharing. That would be pretty neat to have. :)
My gameplan right now is to get femurs first done in May 2014 with PRECICE and then move on to either LON or external tibiae within a year (of course, nothing works according to your plan). Stem cells + externals sounds like a great idea too.
Hey BD,
I love your idea of an page where we can introduce and get to know each other. It would definitely lend itself very nicely to our smaller-sized community. Maybe we can create a whole section dedicated to just that.
I found it really cool to hear someone (besides myself ;)) be interested in my athletic hobbies. On the other site I always used to get the impression that the general attitude was "if you don't play sports for a living, then your athleticism post-LL doesn't matter". But sports are a great way for people of all ages and sizes to find happiness, self esteem, friendship, and relaxation. It really makes me sad when people have to miss out due to physical limitations. My community hosts quite a few sports leagues for people with various handicaps, and I can definitely say that the therapeutic and healing potential of sport (and exercise in general), on so many levels, can't be underestimated.
Personally, I've always been a huge fan of cross-country and track running. When I was a younger man, I was a regional cross country champion. My best events were the 10K and 5k, but I wasn't too shabby at the 1600 meter and 3200 meter races either. Cross country was really a special place for me because I feel like longer-distance running is really one of the relatively few areas of high-intensity sports where smaller people can really thrive. If you've seen the size of olympic marathon runners you know what I mean. However, I've gotten old enough that I'm pretty sure I won't be a cross country champion anytime soon (but hey, who can predict the future ;D). I'm under 30, but I've definitely passed my fastest days. That being said, I still do lots and lots of running and biking, in all sorts of settings. Trail running and mountain biking are among my favorites. I also rock climb, and have heard that most professional climbers have shorter arms and a relatively big leg-length to body-length ratio. So LL'ers would be perfect candidates! :D
Height has always been a source of insecurity for me. I've had a degree of height neurosis ever since I was cut from my high school basketball team years ago for being too short (just like MJ, except I didn't have a growth spurt later on >:(). I refocused a lot of my energy on training for cross country and that took my happiness to new levels. Many years later, I definitely feel good about myself, but frequently feel like I just can't be the leader or alpha in social situations because very few actually take short guys as seriously as teller people in many contexts. I also have a thing for taller girls, funny given my own height. I find that quite a few of them more down to earth and less superficial since a lot of them have also sometimes had a hard time on account of their height. But it's sure ironic that many of them still won't date a short guy. Personally, I've lost jobs and awards to less qualified candidates, and feel almost certain that my height played a role in it, at least subconsciously. Obviously, the problem is with society and not with me, but Rome wasn't built in a day and society isn't going to change overnight. My ideal plan is to successfully get LL, but then, as an average to tall person (depending on how much and how many times I ultimately lengthen, treat short people exactly the same as anyone tall, helping society to change. I'm just getting the surgery because that change won't be fast enough to make me happy, and I don't know if I'll be around when society fully changes (although I'm sure it WILL happen eventually). I also have always felt like I'm a tall guy who got a short guy's body. Kinda strange, I know, but that's honestly a good way to describe it. LL will definitely be my only cosmetic surgery.
I am alright losing some athleticism to LL, since I am well beyond my days of competition and wanting to "win" in athletics. But, and it's a major but, if I lost my ability to run 10 kilometers at a speed that actually feels like running and not jogging, or my ability to jump, climb, play football decently, or squat, I know I'd be really depressed. Plus, if I did become taller, why not pick up basketball again, since height's seriously the only thing that's been holding me back all these years, at least in basketball?
Sports have been such a big part of my existence and I plan to participate in them for the rest of my life. I know this isn't necessarily the ideal attitude to have on an LL forum, but I'm willing to spend 3 years and a lot of dedication recovering, and at least I'll have very fit and flexible legs when I actually get to start my LL. If anything should go very wrong and I did end up crippled, I would resort to kayaking and stay active that way. It's important to be optimistic, but with a surgery like LL, a back-up plan definitely won't hurt.
If anyone else here is also a sportsman or has other cool hobbies, I'd genuinely love to hear about those as well! It's so great seeing that the members of this forum are truly devoted to learning about how LL affects the body long term, and how possible it is to fully recover. Thanks BilateralDamage for the great ideas!
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Yeah, I think this site is far from dead. The problem I see is that there aren't very many trusted methods of communication on the subject of leg lengthening. So much misinformation gets thrown around and it's near impossible to verify anything, and really the only certainty we have are the doctors who perform the surgeries- most notably those who have been recognized for their involvement in CLL for several years now.
For those of us who are detail-oriented (because why wouldn't you be when you plan on having your legs cut open) it's hard not to feel a little phased by the profound lack of verifiable information out there. For example, in the recent discussion of the long term effects of CLL and the possibility that one might sustain knee problems from doing internal tibial surgery, we have little basis to confirm any of this is true besides the word of doctor Franz Birkholtz. Which is not to say that I wish to scrutinize the doctor here since it's got more to do with the nature of internet anonymity in the end. I suggest cross referencing with another doctor would definitely prove useful here, but that hasn't been done yet.
Let's not forget that this is our legs we're talking about. No sane person here would be willing to do the surgery at the cost of losing functionality, or experiencing long term pain/complications from CLL. I think about this a lot. There's no reason in doing something for cosmetic purposes if there's a high risk of incurring long term issues from the whole procedure.
The user stillyoung suggested we start a CLL wiki, which would help consolidate the information a little better. In the end, the most important factor here are the experienced doctors. Their word trumps any member of the forum here, to be honest... and I trust their collective insight on CLL beyond anyone else.
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For example, in the recent discussion of the long term effects of CLL and the possibility that one might sustain knee problems from doing internal tibial surgery, we have little basis to confirm any of this is true besides the word of doctor Franz Birkholtz. Which is not to say that I wish to scrutinize the doctor here since it's got more to do with the nature of internet anonymity in the end. I suggest cross referencing with another doctor would definitely prove useful here, but that hasn't been done yet.
Actually that particular issue is confirmed through recent research on non-cosmetic patients and not just the word of one doctor:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=99.msg2672#msg2672
And I bet many of them didn't even lengthen much, they simply had a rod implanted to help correct their injuries.
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Actually that particular issue is confirmed through recent research on non-cosmetic patients and not just the word of one doctor:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=99.msg2672#msg2672
And I bet many of them didn't even lengthen much, they simply had a rod implanted to help correct their injuries.
I see... does this issue occur in both internal tibia and internal femur patients, or just tibia patients as the study suggests? What do we know about the long term effects on patients who undergo internal femoral lengthening?
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I see... does this issue occur in both internal tibia and internal femur patients, or just tibia patients as the study suggests? What do we know about the long term effects on patients who undergo internal femoral lengthening?
Wondering about that myself.
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Going to just bump this thread since I don't think we've reached any definitive answer on the long term effects of LL. To me, there's absolutely no reason for me to sacrifice a pair of otherwise healthy legs just for some slight height gain.
Concerning internals:
If arthritis is a common occurrence among patients who undergo internal tibial lengthening, why have I not seen this discussed well enough in the past (on old forum /LL Forum)? What do we know about the long term experience of patients who've undergone internal femoral lengthening? How many years are we looking at before we can get a good evaluation of whether a patient sustains long term consequences from CLL?
I recall various sources stating CLL contains no long term side effects so long as the procedure is done correctly, so it's come as a bit of a shock to me that the internal tibial method has proven to have complications years down the line. Sure everyone on the forum is as concerned about the short and long term risk factor as I am...?
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It look like my replies (as well as old forum PartyLeaks's) on the "Site feels dead..." post were moved on over to this one, probably to consolidate relevant information to this one post. Though I didn't request this, I believe it will help keep all the information in one compact thread. Just to clear up the confusion as one of my replies starts with "this forum is far from dead" or something along the lines, which was in response to that original post.
Just wanted to bring this thing up as well: on the makemetaller post, there is a very clear statement on the site's must-read post that purports that LL has posed no long-term complications 50 years since its inception:
18. Are there any long-term complications from having LL?
LL has been practised for over 50 years and there are no reports of any long-term complications, and no reason or logic to suggest that there should be.
[source: old forum Topic: Leg Lengthening FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)] http/www link edit
The reason this is strange to me is that it was written in 2011, three years after this pubmed article was published, clearly articulating the long-term issues of LL http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282
Ever since limblengtheningforum.com opened, I've had to completely re-evaluate my understanding of LL. There's so much misinformation out there on the subject of limb lengthening, it's incredibly discouraging... we need to understand exactly what LL is, and clarify the level of risk we are getting ourselves into. I'm glad we're now on what I think is a more open/free channel for communication through this forum, but I constantly wonder if this is enough.
Stay safe, people.
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@speaknuh,
Yeap, I merged those posts into this topic so it's easier for everyone to not miss out on the information posted. Also edited http/www links to Make Me Taller, as explained in our forum guidelines.
So this thread will be the consolidated version for anyone interested in the long term effect of LL, it's definitely a topic worth having more insights and discussion about. I was personally motivated to start the new forum because of a statement that sum up old forum nowadays
"pick a cheap Doctor and cross your finger hoping it's safe".
That should not be the way. Safety and Recovery must come first. Also it's not healthy when one person is constantly shoving his opinion down people's throat and deleting posts that he disagree with, among other things.
Since I disagree with how old forum is run, I decided to do something about it and hope that this forum will be better than old forum .
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We should start a compilation of studies on this thread or another one. This would provide a central location for solid research derived information involving a large number of patients. We then discuss the conclusions of the studies, have a better assessment of the real risks, and be able to compile questions to ask current LL doctors using this data.
Do you all agree?
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The biggest long term effect I know is height. ;D ;D
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We should start a compilation of studies on this thread or another one. This would provide a central location for solid research derived information involving a large number of patients. We then discuss the conclusions of the studies, have a better assessment of the real risks, and be able to compile questions to ask current LL doctors using this data.
Do you all agree?
I'm all for this, though I wonder how much has been done in the way of studying these long term effects. If we were to compile a bunch of studies, it would be useful to note what particular surgery was done, when it was performed, what device was used, etc. (though for my interests specifically I want to know more about femoral internal lengthening).
It's strange to me that people out there are still interested in going through CLL when we haven't yet reached a consensus on its long term effects over our legs. Two new patient diaries for Dr. Paley have sprung up over the last few weeks on the old forum, which I am pretty suspicious of (moreover, why post on a site where your message gets filtered by the admin before it becomes public?). While I am anticipating the results of the Precice 2 before I jump into CLL myself, I'm pretty concerned about the welfare of the people undertaking CLL without knowing fully its risks and consequences.
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I got a private message about this and wanted to share it with the rest of the forum.
Here's the Universal Pain Assessment Tool:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25724858/UNIVERSAL-PAIN-ASSESSMENT-TOOL
When walking it's 0.5 to 1. I notice it but can ignore it and just keep walking, for hours if necessary. After using the knees a lot I barely notice it at all. If my knees were metal, I'd say they get rusty easily and that using them lubricates them.
When kneeling it's 1 to 3. I always notice it, and sometimes I can ignore it. But other times it interferes with tasks. The worst situation would be walking on my knees on a hard surface. I'd definitely feel it and it would interfere with how I walked. Working out doesn't help this at all. I guess I'd better behave myself since apologizing on my knees would hurt. :P
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Thanks for this. I have to risk the possible permanent knee pain of LON/LATN since I just don't have the time to do external. It's nice to have an idea of what sort of permanent pain I risk getting a rod put in.
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I can't sit on my knees either on a hard surface. It hurts too much.
I'm just home from Taekwondo class and my knees feel sore on the inside bc I jumped a lot.
My ankles hurt on the inside too.
It's terrible.
I think I ruined my life. I can't do actually.
I'm going to try and do a video this Thursday or tomorrow. Then I'll show you how fast I am and how explosive I can be.
I was the greatest in my town and I ruined it for ~6cm of height. What the hell did I do to myself?
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I can't sit on my knees either on a hard surface. It hurts too much.
I'm just home from Taekwondo class and my knees feel sore on the inside bc I jumped a lot.
My ankles hurt on the inside too.
It's terrible.
I think I ruined my life. I can't do s**t actually.
I'm going to try and do a video this Thursday or tomorrow. Then I'll show you how fast I am and how explosive I can be.
I was the greatest in my town and I ruined it for ~6cm of height. What the hell did I do to myself?
Sweden think about it this way if you can:
You are in your mid thirties right? then your athletic prime would soon be over, you have already accomplished more than most people do in terms of sports. So when you eventually stop doing taekwondo those 6 cm will benefit you more than they hurt hopefully. Of course this is assuming the pain issues keep improving.
I know many people who have problems with their knees and legs without having done any LL, their problems come from small injuries and because they are lazy. Its pretty normal. They cannot play sports at a high level because of this but they are happy with their life anyway.
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I almost view this as a positive influence on my life (the knee pain). Whenever I don't feel like working out I remember the knees and the LL and being short. I already made this tradeoff, I already got my new height, so now I have to pay for it every day with a workout. There is no going back on the deal.
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I almost view this as a positive influence on my life (the knee pain). Whenever I don't feel like working out I remember the knees and the LL and being short. I already made this tradeoff, I already got my new height, so now I have to pay for it every day with a workout. There is no going back on the deal.
Thats probably the best way to handle a problem like that, im impressed :D
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Do you workout everyday because your ll? I am sorry I don't understand what you mean are you still recovering?
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My knees are much better. I barely feel them at all.
I can even sit on them on a hard surface but I prefer not to.
Sitting still for an hour or so makes them sore and it takes a while to get them going again, like 5-6 strides.
Running is no problem either for the knees.
Some days they can ache a little and others it's nothing at all.
If I'm up and going I don't feel any ache at all.
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I want to renew the discussion of permanent effects because I think people on here are too optimistic -naive- even about what this surgery means. The general consensus seems to be: "I'tll be tough but I'm going to get through it and then I'll enjoy being tall for the rest of my life -who cares about muscle stiffness or knee pain I was never into sports anyway."
Not only will this mindset lead to a rude awekening but it can be outright dangerous as stated in this thread: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=680.0
Limb lenghtening is dangerous, it can even be life-threatening here are a number of common complications that can occour. Each one is quite unlikely but altogether there is a very real chance that one or more of these will happen to you:
- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."
The scary part is that this can happen to anyone regardless if you pay a million euros or 5 thousand. It has happened in Germany and the US so we aren't safe just because we go with a respected surgeon.
Even if you make it through unscathed you will never recover fully -well you might if you only do 2CM but then what's the point?
No you will have hurt your body in a very real sense and in such a way that no doctor can ever fix it. I know a lot of you might think that you can deal with some issues and that it's a worthy trade-off for that extra height but will you think that 6 years from now, or 10? -Remember this is forever it can't be undone.
Some of us think it's possible to recover completely -100%- you're just as good as you were and you've still got all the potential you once had- Well maybe it can be done afterall Shyshy says he had but for every success story there are three other like Sweden who feels he has destroyed his body and replaced it with regret -and for everone of him there are five other diaries who just end abruptly with no follow-up and it gets moved to the back of the list never mentioned again.
What happens to these people? I like to think the just move on with their life and forget the whole thing but who can say. If you fell into a depression because you now move like a 60-year old or people avoid you because you look like a freak or worst case scenario you've lost a leg -would you really continue to update your thread on a small internet forum?
These things worry me because even though I am tall by this sites standard I don't see a very happy future for me at this height and yet what if I do this surgery and I regret it? I don't have a bad life but it needs improvement in this one area -the question is: is it worth the risks and can I deal with the effects?
Guys, can we really live a life like someone who was naturally tall after LL or will we always be a bit damaged, always be slightly crippled and always a bit of an abomination?
And an addition: maybe I'm not the one to talk but you guys that are 183CM or above you've already got a respectable height are you reall certain this is all worth it? I know I wouldn't do it if I were 185CM.
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OK. you win.. Everybody that was about to do this surgery. Cancel it.
You are talking to deaf ears. It does not matter. Is like when your hungry. You might put it off for sometime. But you will eat inevitably orelse you die inside.
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But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.
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This should be addressed to Ajax/endomorphisme
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But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.
The subjects are intertwined, one string fits to the other. I find this thread more pointless because as i said i could give 2 flies about the consequences others might not agree with me but i doubt it.
I've been a member for 5 years ive seen it all inside out. all the old school diaries. I get the feeling you are new here and think that this thread is somewhat revelation to the majority of members but its not. It just states the obvious. sorry.
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take a look at the poll for itsmylifes diary.
the statistic never seems to change.
40% believe in 5-6cm
20% believe in 6-7cm
20% believe in 7-8cm
20% believe in 8-9cm
this is the very reason why so many people get fked up. the second reason is because we all know soft tissue cant go past 0.66mm per day and NO MUTHERfkER STICKS TO IT.
instead they (ultimately do an average of 0.66mm perday) but destroy their body 1 day at a time by over lengthening on a daily basis, they think they are fine during this process because they mask the symptoms of the damage with massive levels of pain killers. ultimately they are fking their body up.
I can tell you with certainty the body can not lengthen past this level unless you use medication to lie to yourself about how fast you can lengthen. when you do something bad the body produces pain to tell you to fking stop. my doctor will not give me any pain killers and I tell you now going above 0.66 is impossible. because your body screams to stop this madness. the same for going above 5cm in total length.
I have never seen a diary where someone did 5cm or less and had permanent damage. with a good doctor. and lengthened 0.66mm per day every single day.
the problem is that people need to be informed about how serious this surgery is. but NOOOOOO every stupid mutherfker comes here wanting to lengthen 20cm, and then ultimately decides on less but still decide to do too much. the problem is greed. people are greedy they want to complete the surgery as fast as possible and want to lengthen the maximum as possible.
greed needs to end.
6cm tibia is the MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
external femur 5cm MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
internal femur...... I cant answer. but every stupid nobody who does answer will answer this question with greed in their mind wanting it to be as high as possible. and that again is the problem. your body has limits.
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you won't recover completely, some people may think they are fully recovered because they are not athletic, and i think 4 cm is pretty safe with a good doctor and if you follow his recommendations, but people on the forum call you retard because they consider 4 cm is not worth it.
Overall i agree, i'm more concerned by the risks than money and proportions
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Hi forcedpuberty in which country aro you do lengthening?
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I'm also very interested about this topic and rest assured that Slim_tim's response is not representative of the entire forum. I believe that we should compile more data (complications, etc) from diaries and other sources so we know exactly what we're getting into.
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Yeah we should try to move this forum in a more serious direction instead of resting it between a forum for serious discussion and a community of short folks complaining about women and disrespectful friends.
I've come to respect Forced puberty, even though he can be a bit crude, because he actually brings up relevant information and he at least seems to know what he's talking about. The thing he said about not lenghtening over 0,66mm per day is very interesting but is it possible todo that while avoiding premature consolidation?
Also the safe limits are important I think staying below 7CM with internal femur and below 5CM in the tibia is key -won't even bother adressing ext. femur. The less -the safer. We also should do a better job of cautioning people that have excessive goals in mind for their own good.
As for Slim_Tim I know this has been discussed before but there is still no consensus. Until we have at least guidelines that will help ensure a reasonable recovery I'll continue making threads like this. Also: an important topic like this needs to be an ongoing discussion as we successively learn more about how we can stay as safe as possible.
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you guys, especially the ones that never did lengthening are simply wrong... there are no definites first of all
i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...
guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok
I can already walk. etc etc
i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and it has zero impact on function
Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters
For most people, while technically they will not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference
the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...
I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or motor function
Being short sucks
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I had LL so maybe you want to here my experience about that.
If you have a good doc you will be completely healed after a certain time, once the bone is fully consolidated you will be same as pre op, just like after a normal broken bone. But of course things can happen, but they rarely happen and if you have a competent doc, he will fix them. I walk like pre-OP 11 months after my first OP, no one can tell that I had a big operation, because I walk completely normal.
If it's worth it though? I'm not sure, even though I'm average now and that I feel tall at 178cm (with shoes) and I live where the average height is 179cm, so I really enjoy that but 1 year is a long time. Would I do LL at this height? Not even if I got paid millions, I can promise you that. I realized that this height thing is more of a mental problem, I felt like a king at 165cm because I never thought about height, but when I started to think about it and read on bull forums like this I started to get problems.
So my tip to you is get off this forum like I did (well sometimes I come and read some things when I'm really bored, but I'm not as active as I used to be) and forget about height because you are fine and please don't come with this bull excuse like "I'm from Sweden hurr durr" it's nonsense and you know that.
But I would still recommend this for people who are around 165cm, even though you suffer a lot, being average feels really nice and with some Nike Air-Max, phuuu, you will feel awesome. And this is coming from a guy who had probably one of the "easiest" LL you can imagine, no complications, a really really good doc, support from my whole family and friends, I did LL at my home and many many more positive things most of the people who do LL didn't have the pleasure to have. But this is just my advice, do what you want with this.
Maybe I'll be back another time. Good luck and enjoy your life guys :)
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I agree with 123
It's definitely worth it, if you're as tall as I was..
I would not think about ll at my current height
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Alright thanks for the answers and I can definitely relate to height-neurosis being a mental thing -I used to feel just great about myself as well.
Crimsontide are you saying that it is mostly individual and some people have problems and some people don't? Are there some things that can help your recovery and are there complications that can arise later after the surgery?
123 what doctor did you go to and do you have any tips for people that haven't done the operation yet?
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It comes out of two ways - either you're cured or crippled.
Flip a coin
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Alright thanks for the answers and I can definitely relate to height-neurosis being a mental thing -I used to feel just great about myself as well.
Crimsontide are you saying that it is mostly individual and some people have problems and some people don't? Are there some things that can help your recovery and are there complications that can arise later after the surgery?
123 what doctor did you go to and do you have any tips for people that haven't done the operation yet?
I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times ;D
But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.
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It comes out of two ways - either you're cured or crippled.
Flip a coin
even with a good doctor like Paley/Guichet and training your flexibility months before?? This is nonsense...
The real answer is that it varies by the individual. If you are athletic, exercise and stretch regularly, have a good doctor doing the procedure, and have a positive outlook during lengthening, you will find it very rewarding. I myself haven't lengthened yet but from reading the diaries of ppl that were lengthened by good doctors, I can tell that you will be more happy if you put 100% effort into it and focus on your goal.
I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.
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even with a good doctor like Paley/Guichet and training your flexibility months before?? This is nonsense...
The real answer is that it varies by the individual. If you are athletic, exercise and stretch regularly, have a good doctor doing the procedure, and have a positive outlook during lengthening, you will find it very rewarding. I myself haven't lengthened yet but from reading the diaries of ppl that were lengthened by good doctors, I can tell that you will be more happy if you put 100% effort into it and focus on your goal.
I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.
Mentally
It's mostly a mental game. We created this in our heads, and can only be resolved in our heads, which is altered by our experiences.
It's our choice to take and decrease the risks as much as possible through quality effort and treatment.
However, it's only to create the experience in our effort and image to put the beholder in ourselves.
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uppland,
i'm saying that almost everyone comes out ok
I don't see many diaries of those tat went india regretting it... the majority are ok
I personally did nothing special to prepare, and hardly walked while lengthening... I know medium drink has said he rarely walked too, and he's ok as well...
there are drs in russia and india that do the operation correctly....And getting it done in europe or america dosnt guarantee zero complications...
this operation is actually relatively simple.... and the correction I might need to get even simpler
ilizarov in particular has been around a while now, and extensivelystudied ... as long as you find a dr that has a good ammount of experience, you will be ok
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Looking forward to weighing in as I recover.
Having done 8 CM, I can say for starters that my fully healed legs leg press and movements feel great.
My only issue is some pain in lower left leg and rather tight hip flexors with duckass, both of which should likely be resolved soon.
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was it 8 cm taking into account any pin bending?
apparently some people lose 3-5 mm.
please do let us know if you can still run..problems with nerve injury has been documented by paley et al, the common peroneal nerve.. which may result in delayed athletic response times,etc
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uppland,
i'm saying that almost everyone comes out ok
I don't see many diaries of those tat went india regretting it... the majority are ok
I personally did nothing special to prepare, and hardly walked while lengthening... I know medium drink has said he rarely walked too, and he's ok as well...
there are drs in russia and india that do the operation correctly....And getting it done in europe or america dosnt guarantee zero complications...
this operation is actually relatively simple.... and the correction I might need to get even simpler
ilizarov in particular has been around a while now, and extensivelystudied ... as long as you find a dr that has a good ammount of experience, you will be ok
i agree..
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@123 That is actually great advice, I'll admit I am a bit nervous of how the doctor will react -he certainly will not perform the operation on me as it is illegal for cosmetic reasons here but whatever he could tell me helps thanks for the tip.
@crimsontide I'm sorry but what do you mean with "ok" I have accepted that the surgery may be with me my whole life but I couldn't accept not being able to do stuff like climbing mountains, running long distances, skiing on steep slopes etc. That would make me feel cippled even if I technically wasn't. So that's what I'm really worried about.
Of course I would do everything in my power to recover best I could. I'll start stretching tomorrow actually -as soon as I learn what kind of stretches I should do. Does anyone know?
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was it 8 cm taking into account any pin bending?
apparently some people lose 3-5 mm.
please do let us know if you can still run..problems with nerve injury has been documented by paley et al, the common peroneal nerve.. which may result in delayed athletic response times,etc
Went with internal femurs.
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I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times ;D
But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.
whats the name of the doctor who did your surgery? /pm
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@123 That is actually great advice, I'll admit I am a bit nervous of how the doctor will react -he certainly will not perform the operation on me as it is illegal for cosmetic reasons here but whatever he could tell me helps thanks for the tip.
@crimsontide I'm sorry but what do you mean with "ok" I have accepted that the surgery may be with me my whole life but I couldn't accept not being able to do stuff like climbing mountains, running long distances, skiing on steep slopes etc. That would make me feel cippled even if I technically wasn't. So that's what I'm really worried about.
Of course I would do everything in my power to recover best I could. I'll start stretching tomorrow actually -as soon as I learn what kind of stretches I should do. Does anyone know?
how long are u post-op? and how many months post frame removal?
once u can do contact sports, try plyometrics.... it builds up muscle reaction times, speed and power....
but i just read disturbing information from paley et al that nerve damage might result in slow reaction times for the muscles..
very disturbing
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I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times ;D
But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.
are you the same 12345 in the old forum ?
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are you the same 12345 in the old forum ?
No.
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I doubt there are any long-term effects from ll with a good doctor, safe protocols, etc. The little research that exists in area of cosmetic ll seems to show that there are few-to-no long-term effects of the procedure. As for Sweden, it's important to remember that he got his surgery with Dr. Sarin the butcher.
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I doubt there are any long-term effects from ll with a good doctor, safe protocols, etc. The little research that exists in area of cosmetic ll seems to show that there are few-to-no long-term effects of the procedure. As for Sweden, it's important to remember that he got his surgery with Dr. Sarin the butcher.
Well that is true but I also feel like it's the norm on this forum to gloss over the real negative and focusing on the gain. It's a coping strategy I understand but I don't want us to ever get to the point where we ignore serious concerns like motor function, nerve damage, permanent pain etc.
It does happen: Medium Drink has knee pain and reduced fatigue maybe nothing too serious but it will still be with him for the rest of his life. Sweden has reduced motor function and agility -he had a bad experience sure but those can happen with all doctors. I'm sure Sweden walked into Dr Sarins office thinking he was in safe hands.
Some of the brightest diaries like OBG's feauture videos that show him moving seemingly like normal and yet he says he only regained 75-80% of his running ability after two years -he did 6CM internal femur and is considered one of the more successful ones.
This is a life altering surgery -hopefully for the better but I, at least, want to be very clear about what I'm walking in to before I go for it.
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Well that is true but I also feel like it's the norm on this forum to gloss over the real negative and focusing on the gain. It's a coping strategy I understand but I don't want us to ever get to the point where we ignore serious concerns like motor function, nerve damage, permanent pain etc.
It does happen: Medium Drink has knee pain and reduced fatigue maybe nothing too serious but it will still be with him for the rest of his life. Sweden has reduced motor function and agility -he had a bad experience sure but those can happen with all doctors. I'm sure Sweden walked into Dr Sarins office thinking he was in safe hands.
Some of the brightest diaries like OBG's feauture videos that show him moving seemingly like normal and yet he says he only regained 75-80% of his running ability after two years -he did 6CM internal femur and is considered one of the more successful ones.
This is a life altering surgery -hopefully for the better but I, at least, want to be very clear about what I'm walking in to before I go for it.
80 percent is not that bad, but both did 7 cm which is maybe too much, especially for tibia.
I hope there will be more people who will do 4 or 5 cm, this is what i'm aiming for, so i need to know if it's safer or not.
And oldiebutgoldie has not updated his diary for 4 months, i hope he will catches us up on his recovery
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Looking forward to weighing in as I recover.
Having done 8 CM, I can say for starters that my fully healed legs leg press and movements feel great.
My only issue is some pain in lower left leg and rather tight hip flexors with duckass, both of which should likely be resolved soon.
I'm really happy for you, man! To be almost fully recovered after only about four months and 8 cm is fantastic!
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There is nothing to say that Medium Drink's knee pain actually comes from the surgery. There could be other factors at work.
Sweden also entire with Dr. Sarin, whom is the worst excuse for an ll doctor that these forums have ever seen.
OBG says his running speed is back up to "90% compared to before", and that was before his rods were removed about three months ago. It's also important to remember that he wasn't a young man in the prime of his life; he was 45, so recovering from surgeries is naturally going to be a little harder.
The research amongst young peoples whom get cosmetic ll, 20s to 30s, seems to show no long-term side effects/impairments.
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The research amongst young peoples whom get cosmetic ll, 20s to 30s, seems to show no long-term side effects/impairments.
I'm very interested in this research. Care to share the link?
Thanks
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I've only seen these two studies so far. But, the results look very promising:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25183215
http://www.bjj.boneandjoint.org.uk/content/87-B/10/1402
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Very interesting indeed. Almost all the patients had a positive outcome according to those studies. Not it's all about finding the right doctor.
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its not all about the right dr... but, if you have the money, go to rozbruch
I'll post my experience soon about him
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I am 5'5 and i am going to do probably 5 on my tibia in the next year but will I do 6 or 7 ? Bitch I'm 5'5 who the fk wants to be 5'7? I'm 22 and I am going to be done with my master's degree in November I can't be happy at 5'5. Hate people the way they treat me and . I really just don't care about it either 5'9 is my ultimate goal but being closet to 5'10 is ideal.
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I am 5'5 and i am going to do probably 5 on my tibia in the next year but will I do 6 or 7 ? Bitch I'm 5'5 who the fk wants to be 5'7? I'm 22 and I am going to be done with my master's degree in November I can't be happy at 5'5. Hate people the way they treat me and crap. I really just don't care about it either 5'9 is my ultimate goal but being closet to 5'10 is ideal.
5.5CM on your tibiae and 7CM on your femurs and you'll be set for life.
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you should do 7 cm, 172 is a decent height and you avoid the trauma of a second procedure
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you guys, especially the ones that never did lengthening are simply wrong... there are no definites first of all
i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...
guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok
I can already walk. etc etc
i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and it has zero impact on function
Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters
For most people, while technically they will not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference
the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...
I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or motor function
Being short sucks
Needing a second surgery is not an example of someone who has no problems from LL surgery and in a more current post, you are now in recovery from surgery again. So you're not exactly a fully recovered patient without complications and certainly can't speak about longterm problems. http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=634.450
Cautionary Threads like these are important because there are many people who aren't as embittered by their heights as you are/were…. even at your previous height. They are those who may change their minds about this surgery and decide it isn't worth the risks or that your current post-op recoveries are not what they consider an acceptable trade-off for them.
You hate being short so much that you're probably more optimistic about any problems you're experiencing that others who are not as unhappy would be.
Medium Drink of Water has posted that he is satisfied with his decision to have LL surgery even though it had consequences. He reveals all the problems he's had and still has because he understands that what is a good result for him might be considered a poor result by someone else. He doesn't seem to have any problems with people being forewarned about complications or even emphasizing them.
There's no need to be annoyed if someone else decides that this type of surgery isn't worth it and doesn't go thru with it.
Someone who hates his stature as much as you did will do this surgery regardless of how many warning threads are posted so it isn't meant for you. Some people would rather be dead than to keep living as a short person but others just want to get taller only if it makes common sense for them.
Believe me, there are times when I absolutely hate my height but I want to know as much about the consequences as possible.
Your own experience with LL and needing a second surgery may not be a problem for you, but it would be for me. I will need to read about the average patient experiencing more successful surgeries than your own to consider this for myself.
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Needing a second surgery is not an example of someone who has no problems from LL surgery and in a more current post, you are now in recovery from surgery again. So you're not exactly a fully recovered patient without complications and certainly can't speak about longterm problems. http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=634.450
Cautionary Threads like these are important because there are many people who aren't as embittered by their heights as you are/were…. even at your previous height. They are the ones who may change their minds about this surgery and decide it isn't worth the risks or that your recovery that you are happy with is not what they consider an acceptable trade-off for them.
You hate being short so much that you're probably more optimistic about any problems you're experiencing that others who are not as unhappy would be.
Medium Drink of Water has posted that he is satisfied with his decision to have LL surgery even though it had consequences. He reveals all the problems he's had and still has because he understands that what is a good result for him might be considered a poor result by someone else.
There's no need to be annoyed if someone else decides that this type of surgery isn't worth it and doesn't go thru with it.
Someone who hates his stature as much as you did will do this surgery regardless of how many warning threads are posted so it isn't meant for you. Some people would rather be dead than to keep living as a short person but others just want to get taller only if it makes common sense for them.
Believe me, there are times when I absolutely hate my height but I want to know as much about the consequences as possible.
Your own experience with LL and needing a second surgery may not be a problem for you, but it would be for me. I will need to read about the average patient experiencing more successful surgeries than your own to consider this for myself.
Very wise words
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I am 5'5 and i am going to do probably 5 on my tibia in the next year but will I do 6 or 7 ? Bitch I'm 5'5 who the fk wants to be 5'7? I'm 22 and I am going to be done with my master's degree in November I can't be happy at 5'5. Hate people the way they treat me and crap. I really just don't care about it either 5'9 is my ultimate goal but being closet to 5'10 is ideal.
I'd want to be 5'7 bro rather than my current 5'3. Don't let your goals to get your head man 5'7 is average short but you won't get laughed at unless your personality sucks. Personally I've been humbled a lot on this forum by dudes who are two to five inches shorter than myself and will never reach 5'7
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what is this post???
are u joking???
let me make it very short
1- i never stated i had no issues... those are yours words which you need to make up to have a basis for this long post
2-i have no idea why this post was even made... i constantly state no one will ever be 100%
i can't stand these long posts that can be written in a sentence or two
very simply, heres how it goes
almost no one will recover 100%
almost everyone who has ll will function normally again... unless they do something like 10-12 cm... and almost everyone that gets this surgery does not regret it... even the biggest complainers like sweden don't regret it
read more posts , then post
btw, you obviously hate your height... that is why you're spending time on this forum... i did hate my height, but I don't now
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joel,
if youre 5'5, 5'8 or so is a realistic goal
5-10 is too much, 5-9 even is a bit much
big difference between 5'5 and 5'8
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I am 5'5 and i am going to do probably 5 on my tibia in the next year but will I do 6 or 7 ? Bitch I'm 5'5 who the fk wants to be 5'7? I'm 22 and I am going to be done with my master's degree in November I can't be happy at 5'5. Hate people the way they treat me and crap. I really just don't care about it either 5'9 is my ultimate goal but being closet to 5'10 is ideal.
You can be happy at 5'5. I know this because I'm 5'5 and in my late 20s. Let me explain something to you since you're 22. People your age are superficial and haven't prioritized other characteristics of people over looks yet. That's why you feel the pain of being short more. It gets better when you're older. Much better especially if you make a lot of money and have a funny/fun personality. Trust me on this. You can spent the next few years always looking at your height and being sad. Or you can work on the other aspects of your life like I did and be an amazing person despite your height.
I'm only getting LL because I don't like the way I look, and not because of the way people treat me. I'm actually well respected and have a lot of followers on social media. When the rest of you is great, people won't care about your height. Look at that short guy at Game of Thrones. Well respected. Even Tom Cruise at 5'7 is respected. People make fun of him for his height and religion, but you got to admit that he makes interesting movies. And if they still don't respect you solely because of your height, then they're superficial. And you probably don't want to be friends with those people anyway. Don't let other people's opinions about you make you do stupid things like overlengthening. It's called peer pressure. And many dumb people injured themselves and/or died because of it. And for what? To impress people who you don't even care about? Believe me when I say this: You will stop caring about these people after a while. At your age, you're probably struggling for attention because you haven't yet established yourself as somebody yet. And you're frustrated that nobody is paying you attention. Guess what? Everyone at your age is probably suffering from this (minus the super attractive people). Don't let being short be the excuse as to why you can't be happy. You're still taller than 50% of the girls. That's not a bad dating pool size.
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I'm a little confused, you've told a few people on here that doing 4/5 inches is way too much with a starting height of 5'5 but you're saying you want to get to 5'9/5'10?
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I am 5'5 and i am going to do probably 5 on my tibia in the next year but will I do 6 or 7 ? Bitch I'm 5'5 who the fk wants to be 5'7? I'm 22 and I am going to be done with my master's degree in November I can't be happy at 5'5. Hate people the way they treat me and crap. I really just don't care about it either 5'9 is my ultimate goal but being closet to 5'10 is ideal.
I'm a little confused, you've told a few people on here that doing 4/5 inches is way too much with a starting height of 5'5 because of the smaller bodies but you're saying you want to get to 5'9/5'10?
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joel,
if youre 5'5, 5'8 or so is a realistic goal
5-10 is too much, 5-9 even is a bit much
big difference between 5'5 and 5'8
Four inches shouldn't hurt anyone divide evenly between segments. That's pretty moderate and reasonable
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thats over 10 cm and 2 surgeries
its a bit much... people talk about 2 surgeries as if its pretty easy,but lets look at statistics
how many diaries are on this site, and how many of these diaries are of people having 2 surgeries
its very low, close to 0 %... are there any successful double surgeries on this forum?
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No succesful double surgeries in the forum. In my opinion, even some people who has done one surgery is hiding information from us. They say everything is OK but it isn't.
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Define "successful"
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You will end up fked bro
That's the price you've to pay
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I'm all for this, though I wonder how much has been done in the way of studying these long term effects. If we were to compile a bunch of studies, it would be useful to note what particular surgery was done, when it was performed, what device was used, etc. (though for my interests specifically I want to know more about femoral internal lengthening).
It's strange to me that people out there are still interested in going through CLL when we haven't yet reached a consensus on its long term effects over our legs. Two new patient diaries for Dr. Paley have sprung up over the last few weeks on the old forum, which I am pretty suspicious of (moreover, why post on a site where your message gets filtered by the admin before it becomes public?). While I am anticipating the results of the Precice 2 before I jump into CLL myself, I'm pretty concerned about the welfare of the people undertaking CLL without knowing fully its risks and consequences.
Joan Rivers and Michael Jackson thought they looked great with all their plastic surgeries even the infamous "cat woman" so they're examples of people taking conventional plastic surgeries too far but were happy with their results even though others thought they were crazy and looked horrible… so this is also a mental issue especially in LL when you're choosing to get your legs broken. To be fair, all plastic surgeries are partly a mental issue anyway, so it's just the degree of safety & risk that should matter.
I don't believe I will ever get LL in my lifetime based on the cumulative information I've read here and doing my own research so it's good that this forum can convince some people to get the surgery while dissuading others. If everyone who visits this forum became gung ho to get the surgery, I wouldn't trust it.
I do credit all the people who elected to get the surgery for paving the way with their experiences to making this a safer, more accepted form of elective surgery for others in the future. I really think the future for this type of elective surgery looks promising and I'm fascinated by the process, but the current risk/rewards of LL is just not for me.
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There are no long term studies of CLL, so everyone who does it is taking a gamble. I think that's why there seems to be a big divide between the definitely short doing CLL vs the average height and up people doing CLL. Taking that gamble to no longer deal with all the crap that comes with being short is understandable to a lot of people, whereas taking that gamble for purely aesthetic reasons seems totally mental to a lot of people. I'm in more the average range 5'8, and the people I've let in on my desire to get taller have advised me to see a therapist.
However, even though there are no long term studies, I tend to think in the middle of the road. You probably won't ever be your 100% pre-LL self like some orthopedic surgeons say and what anecdotal evidence seems to show. But at the same time, the claims by certain orthopedic surgeons that CLL is going to make you f***** once you hit middle age seem completely unfounded.
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I would like to hear medical opinions but im afraid they wont be fair. doctors who do CLL would say everything is OK. Other doctors usually say it's totally crazy.
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Yes, all doctors who perform CLL will say it's OK, especially drs who underplay risks, like dr monegal or dr betz according to many users.but it isnt.
I would like to hear medical opinions but im afraid they wont be fair. doctors who do CLL would say everything is OK. Other doctors usually say it's totally crazy.
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it's hard to tell what will happen down the line, but people go to sunbeds and everyone knows it's not safe, and people get skin cancer all the time by that, yet it's still given approval.
I'm no expert, but for this i can only think early onset of arthritus in the knees, I can't imagine anything else happening other than that.
but all scientific evidence supports that once the bone is healed everything is back to normal and any doctor looking at your knee bones would conclude that you bone is exactly the same as it was 9 months ago, only longer, so i like to think there are no issues.
very unlike the sun bed people, any doctor would say you will get skin cancer, and your going to get it, and i can see it happening, yet people (mostly girls) do it and you thin why there are many attractive women who are very white.
I would say liposuction is pretty bad, but i don't know much about it, id say sun beds and liposuciton are worse than LL, just because something is painful and invasive doens't mean it isn't safer than other things which are more conventional.
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Q: What is the long term effect of limb-lengthening?
A:
Leg lengthening procedure is a kind of controlled fracture healing and once the bone is healed, there is no long term effects on the lengthened bone, as bone is under constant remodeling, hence the newly formed bone is as strong as the intact original bone. The real concern is on the long term mechanical effects on the joints. As change of height and bone length, will lead to change of body balance and loading pattern on the joint will be changed. However, our body can adjust the gait pattern to adopt the changes, and it will take a few years for the body to fully adapt to the new changes.During this period, we will recommend modest exercise. We have several patients who had leg lengthening surgery 15 years ago and none of them complained any serious complications such as arthritis. The long term effect of cosmetic surgery (20-40 years) is not yet known and we don’t anticipate any major complications at this stage based on our clinical observations.
find that on a site
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Yes, all doctors who perform CLL will say it's OK, especially drs who underplay risks, like dr monegal or dr betz according to many users.but it isnt.
. Please tell US what happened!
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There are a number of risks that might happen.
What will happen is that your muscles will have to apply force over a larger area and thus be slower and weaker. Imagine you're swinging a small stick, it's pretty easy and fast. Now imagine you swing a longer and heavier stick, your swings will be much slower and heavier won't they?
This is basic physics and cannot be avoided, it is possible to train and adapt the muscles but I've only seen two examples of people who claim they got back to their previous level.
Don't lengthen too much and don't deviate from a natural ratio between the femur and tibia.
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well on the ratio thing that can arguably be fixed again by making the femurs longer, so they are back to their original ratio.
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youll never be 100% again, but youll be okay
i dont put too much weight into the muscle being weaker
its true it will have a longer axis, but the muscles stretch a bit, and the body adapts
id say 2 full years to get to 90% or so, especially if external was done
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Just wanted to update everyone on this. My knees have been progressively getting better since I started this thread. I don't feel any pain at all when I walk now, and the sensitivity upon kneeling is maybe a 1 on this scale now.
I'm not as anti-internal nail as I once was in light of these developments.
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Just wanted to update everyone on this. My knees have been progressively getting better since I started this thread. I don't feel any pain at all when I walk now, and the sensitivity upon kneeling is maybe a 1 on this scale now.
I'm not as anti-internal nail as I once was in light of these developments.
Very interesting!
Thanks for the update.
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BTW Are you receiving any treatment or have you started any activity that could potentially decrease the knee pain?
If not, then would you have any idea why the pain has subsided? And are there times when your knee pain temporarily rises?
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Just wanted to update everyone on this. My knees have been progressively getting better since I started this thread. I don't feel any pain at all when I walk now, and the sensitivity upon kneeling is maybe a 1 on this scale now.
I'm not as anti-internal nail as I once was in light of these developments.
Congratulations, these are very very good news.
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BTW Are you receiving any treatment or have you started any activity that could potentially decrease the knee pain?
If not, then would you have any idea why the pain has subsided? And are there times when your knee pain temporarily rises?
Hmm...
Three years ago I weighed 160 lbs, and that was when my knee issues were at their worst. Now I'm down to 135 lbs. Maybe less stress on my joints is the reason. My diet has also been a bit healthier in the past couple of years, so maybe improved nutrition also plays a part.
But that could very well be an illusory correlation. 160 lbs isn't all that heavy.
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With the studies mentioning permanent knee pain I would be curious to see if the percentage of complications was still over 70% after 10 years for example. Glad to hear your pain has decreased mdow however I'll still be steering clear of tibial nailing. :P
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glad to see this!!!
btw, when people say they are against tiabial nailing,
internal tibias always requires tibial nailing, correct??
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glad to see this!!!
btw, when people say they are against tiabial nailing,
internal tibias always requires tibial nailing, correct??
By definition.
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Not a cripple or an amputee, suffering from major depressive disorder with suicidal ideation.
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No succesful double surgeries in the forum. In my opinion, even some people who has done one surgery is hiding information from us. They say everything is OK but it isn't.
Too many says they're OK but in fact they suffer every day.
I've been told I'm the only honest one about what the procedure is really like. Not sure about it but having met so many patients all over I can say I healed up pretty well.
It may sound as I'm complaining a lot about aches or different problems but I'm just telling it the way it is. Nobody gets unaffected from this and I bet I can outrun most of the old patients in here.
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Too many says they're OK but in fact they suffer every day.
I've been told I'm the only honest one about what the procedure is really like. Not sure about it but having met so many patients all over I can say I healed up pretty well.
It may sound as I'm complaining a lot about aches or different problems but I'm just telling it the way it is. Nobody gets unaffected from this and I bet I can outrun most of the old patients in here.
Now I'm certainly impressed with what you've done Sweden and I am the first to applaud your commitment to truth rather than sugar coating. That said, after seeing your videos I feel like there are a couple of femur patients that move and run in a smoother more natural way, can't tell about their speed though.
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If I could undo LL, I would. Being mid-20s and not able to participate in sports for the rest of my life, and moving like an arthritic 70+ through most movements is not worth being taller.
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If I could undo LL, I would. Being mid-20s and not able to participate in sports for the rest of my life, and moving like an arthritic 70+ through most movements is not worth being taller.
This is just tragic, but I understand you. :(
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I move pretty stiff bc of my broken foot right now. Before that I ran almost every day and it just went better and better.
The foot set me back a lot and I gained some weight too.
It's going away soon and I'll be cycling more now instead, but I will always fight until I can run descent again.
I ran 10km in March this year in ~56minutes. I'm pretty happy with that.
There must be many who can move better than me I'm sure of it. But the general patient is not in to serious sports.
I will try to get back in competitive class again. Just have to change my style a bit.
Most likely there will be aches for the rest of our lives - that goes for everyone who lengthened their legs.
Especially when we get older.
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56 minutes for 10km isn't bad at all for a guy in his 30's. Most men in their 30's would be much slower than that. So congrats! What was your 10km time before LL?
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56 minutes for 10km isn't bad at all for a guy in his 30's. Most men in their 30's would be much slower than that. So congrats! What was your 10km time before LL?
Between 38-45min depending on daily shape.
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polycrates,
id regret ll too, if i were you. you were basically 5'10... what i went through would not have been worth it if instead of 5'6, i was 5'9
but you say you cant participate in sports, why? do you mean competitive sports, or you cant do anything?
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If I could undo LL, I would. Being mid-20s and not able to participate in sports for the rest of my life, and moving like an arthritic 70+ through most movements is not worth being taller.
So you still not healed from your toe and foot issue? So bad.
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I think you'd be be better off if you got your nails out. They do force your bones to be stiffer and act more rigidly than they would otherwise. The nails can also cause fully healed bones to ache as bones are naturally supposed to flex and bend during walking and sports.
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There are always residual effects of every surgery, let alone LL. The trick is to minimize them by efficient planning in choosing the right doctor, being realistic with your goals and following correct recovery protocol.
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I've had a rough recovery. I think a year from now however I will be good, with the exception of worse running, which currently is terrible.
I am happy to report that most the people I am in contact with still that I lengthened with are playing sports/have no issues, and I am very happy for them. These were all Paley patients.
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That's by all accounts great to hear PD. If I may bother you with just two questions; how much did each of these individuals lengthen? How many people did you lengthen with?
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That's by all accounts great to hear PD. If I may bother you with just two questions; how much did each of these individuals lengthen? How many people did you lengthen with?
It is a good point
I guess less tan 8cm may be 6cm maximum?
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Nope. One individual did the same amount as me, starting an inch shorter than me.
One did indeed only do 6 cm, though he was over 40 years old! Starting around two shorter than me.
Another example did just about a cm less than me, starting a whopping 5 or so inches shorter than me.
Proportionately I did far more than two of them, and slightly more than the other, yet they have had great recoveries. I think this mostly proves that even moreso than amount lengthened(although I am sure my recovery would have been phenomenal with an inch less of lengthening), how your body responds to it determines your outcome, and is somewhat luck of the draw.
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It depends on each individual
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Does anyone know of any long term effects of LL on femur (approx. 7,5 cm). I was wondering if the massive gain of bone, and therefore the increased weight on your tibias could cause long term problems such as Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Osteoporosis, knee pain, etc. ?
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well,if i dont get better, id say dont do it
might be diue t achilles issues
i just cant enjoy walking now
paley said id never get near 90% recovery after achilles lengthening, while catagni says 100% is possible or probable
hard to know who's right
i cant stand on my tiptoes now.... and i used to have very strong lower legs
worst thing though is my walking speed.... im so slow,no power
im not sure what my options are now, if ill recover
definitely cant enjoy life like this
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well,if i dont get better, id say dont do it
might be diue t achilles issues
i just cant enjoy walking now
paley said id never get near 90% recovery after achilles lengthening, while catagni says 100% is possible or probable
hard to know who's right
i cant stand on my tiptoes now.... and i used to have very strong lower legs
worst thing though is my walking speed.... im so slow,no power
im not sure what my options are now, if ill recover
definitely cant enjoy life like this
I am sorry that LL did not work out for you as you hoped it would. :( If I may ask, how much did you lenghten your tibias?
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very nicely explained and I do understand the risk associated with this surgery and after effects but I am willing to go for it because I cannot stay whole life being short.
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take a look at the poll for itsmylifes diary.
the statistic never seems to change.
40% believe in 5-6cm
20% believe in 6-7cm
20% believe in 7-8cm
20% believe in 8-9cm
this is the very reason why so many people get fked up. the second reason is because we all know soft tissue cant go past 0.66mm per day and NO MUTHERfkER STICKS TO IT.
instead they (ultimately do an average of 0.66mm perday) but destroy their body 1 day at a time by over lengthening on a daily basis, they think they are fine during this process because they mask the symptoms of the damage with massive levels of pain killers. ultimately they are fking their body up.
I can tell you with certainty the body can not lengthen past this level unless you use medication to lie to yourself about how fast you can lengthen. when you do something bad the body produces pain to tell you to fking stop. my doctor will not give me any pain killers and I tell you now going above 0.66 is impossible. because your body screams to stop this madness. the same for going above 5cm in total length.
I have never seen a diary where someone did 5cm or less and had permanent damage. with a good doctor. and lengthened 0.66mm per day every single day.
the problem is that people need to be informed about how serious this surgery is. but NOOOOOO every stupid mutherfker comes here wanting to lengthen 20cm, and then ultimately decides on less but still decide to do too much. the problem is greed. people are greedy they want to complete the surgery as fast as possible and want to lengthen the maximum as possible.
greed needs to end.
6cm tibia is the MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
external femur 5cm MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
internal femur...... I cant answer. but every stupid nobody who does answer will answer this question with greed in their mind wanting it to be as high as possible. and that again is the problem. your body has limits.
You remind me a guy I've met in Serbia. Many didn't liked him because he was "too honest".
Screw the political correctness. You've summed up pretty well.
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Proportionately I did far more than two of them, and slightly more than the other, yet they have had great recoveries. I think this mostly proves that even moreso than amount lengthened(although I am sure my recovery would have been phenomenal with an inch less of lengthening), how your body responds to it determines your outcome, and is somewhat luck of the draw.
I noticed people saying others have great recoveries… but unless it's medically documented or you know them personally and in contact with them, you'd never know if they have complications. I would never have known your leg snapped if you weren't willing to openly discuss your recovery here… so thanks for your updates. I find your updates, along with Medium's to be 2 of the most credible sources on this website that I can find on this subject.
It's notoriously hard to verify anyone having full recoveries. Crimson says that many are happy they had the surgery but that says nothing about them being fully recovered. That can simply mean they find moderate pain or having a limp or some other handicap is better than being short. Kinda like all those people in Hollywood who look like the Joker after doing too many facelifts but are still happy with the surgeries.
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I've seen most people having some kind of complications even with the best doctors. LL is no joke.
If you go to ty doctor the higher your chances are of getting complications.
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It's now been 3 years since I did my first operation(frames on, nail in legs).
Today I have X-legs which affects my walking and running to the point my back hurts insanely in some evenings. I even broke my foot bc of it(lower part of tibia around the foot). It has healed very bad and actually hurts every single day if I don't do drugs like an addict.
My muscles are like 45% of what they used to be on my thighs. My calfs have totally exploded in hyper trophy to the point where it's difficult to pull over most jeans around them and then they're loose around the thighs.
There is a constant stretch in my calfs and ankles when I stand up straight and standing up for a long time hurts my back.
I'm slow in my body as an old man(I'm 30+).
Running is ALWAYS very difficult and it's not something I just do even if I need to(like catch the train or stuff like that)
I can jump up to 40-50% of what I used to be able to.
Jumping from one leg is close to impossible.
Sometimes my calfs get cramps and I need to point with my feet(like standing on toes).
My knees ache a little every morning and when I stand up from sitting down.
I can barely sit down on the ground anymore in any position bc then I fall back. My back muscles are too short.
If I sit more than 30 seconds on my knees I can almost not get up by myself. And some days it's impossible to sit on my knees.
My shins are just too long. It doesn't look natural - especially when I sit on my knees. Heels almost stick out from my butt then.
When I do the splits, which I still can on a good day, I can't grab on to my feet bc my legs are too long for my arms. It's BEYOND unnatural. Every gymnast can grab their feet - but me. And it's bc I can't reach them anymore. It looks W E I R D !!!
Standing up I can't reach my feet. It's also unnatural. Sure, some days I can, but not easy - like before.
My stamina is like a 60-year old.
Doing properly squats is very dangerous for my back bc my total biomechanics are changed and altered. I have to do it in the machines. But I'm still strong in my legs compared to most people.
If anything touches the lower screws in my tibias I want to die bc of the pain it gives for one second.
Don't do more than 5cm on tibias god damn it!!!!!!
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My doctor measured me last week. I was 179,5cm tall. It felt good. I asked for the checkup I did with him back in 2011 and checked my height. It said 173cm tall.
He didn't notice by the way......
The fact that I'm now around average is actually very satisfactory for me. I went to India, sure, but I got the height. No question about it.
The one thing that bothers me the most is my broken foot. Everything else is tolerable and right before I broke my foot I ran 10km in 55 minutes.
I haven't started working yet. I'm still in school and will do so until June 2017. Hopefully after that I will get a very good office job where I can relax my destroyed body, my new destroyed TALL body.
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How much did you lengthen in total? Do you regret doing it?
It's now been 3 years since I did my first operation(frames on, nail in legs).
Today I have X-legs which affects my walking and running to the point my back hurts insanely in some evenings. I even broke my foot bc of it(lower part of tibia around the foot). It has healed very bad and actually hurts every single day if I don't do drugs like an addict.
My muscles are like 45% of what they used to be on my thighs. My calfs have totally exploded in hyper trophy to the point where it's difficult to pull over most jeans around them and then they're loose around the thighs.
There is a constant stretch in my calfs and ankles when I stand up straight and standing up for a long time hurts my back.
I'm slow in my body as an old man(I'm 30+).
Running is ALWAYS very difficult and it's not something I just do even if I need to(like catch the train or stuff like that)
I can jump up to 40-50% of what I used to be able to.
Jumping from one leg is close to impossible.
Sometimes my calfs get cramps and I need to point with my feet(like standing on toes).
My knees ache a little every morning and when I stand up from sitting down.
I can barely sit down on the ground anymore in any position bc then I fall back. My back muscles are too short.
If I sit more than 30 seconds on my knees I can almost not get up by myself. And some days it's impossible to sit on my knees.
My shins are just too long. It doesn't look natural - especially when I sit on my knees. Heels almost stick out from my butt then.
When I do the splits, which I still can on a good day, I can't grab on to my feet bc my legs are too long for my arms. It's BEYOND unnatural. Every gymnast can grab their feet - but me. And it's bc I can't reach them anymore. It looks W E I R D !!!
Standing up I can't reach my feet. It's also unnatural. Sure, some days I can, but not easy - like before.
My stamina is like a 60-year old.
Doing properly squats is very dangerous for my back bc my total biomechanics are changed and altered. I have to do it in the machines. But I'm still strong in my legs compared to most people.
If anything touches the lower screws in my tibias I want to die bc of the pain it gives for one second.
Don't do more than 5cm on tibias god damn it!!!!!!
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My doctor measured me last week. I was 179,5cm tall. It felt good. I asked for the checkup I did with him back in 2011 and checked my height. It said 173cm tall.
He didn't notice by the way......
The fact that I'm now around average is actually very satisfactory for me. I went to India, sure, but I got the height. No question about it.
The one thing that bothers me the most is my broken foot. Everything else is tolerable and right before I broke my foot I ran 10km in 55 minutes.
I haven't started working yet. I'm still in school and will do so until June 2017. Hopefully after that I will get a very good office job where I can relax my destroyed body, my new destroyed TALL body.
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Respect to Sweden where its due. For the newbies although the permanent decrease in athleticism is better known now he was warning people about doing over 5cm years ago when it was common to see diaries of guys doing 7,8 even 9 cm on tibia!
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Respect to Sweden where its due. For the newbies although the permanent decrease in athleticism is better known now he was warning people about doing over 5cm years ago when it was common to see diaries of guys doing 7,8 even 9 cm on tibia!
Yet we still see people doing 7-9 cms on femurs, which is in no way better. The biomechanics are changed anyways and squatting is much harder with longer femurs.
Thanks for being honest, Sweden. Even for me it's a good read. However, I believe most of your negative effects come from complications namely x-legs and broken foot, the later isn't even related to LL. If you get to fix your foot and x-legs and remove the rod, you should feel much better I think.
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It's not very painful. Just daily difficulties.
I regret going past my goal of 6cm. I went for 7cm bc the other guys looked good even after doing 8cm.
It will be impossible to fix my X-legs and the foot. The foot has already healed improperly and it's the femurs that are twisted which causes the X-legs.
LL will fk your body up.
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if time is reverse before you did ll, will you do ll again? if yes, how many cm
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Respect to Sweden where its due. For the newbies although the permanent decrease in athleticism is better known now he was warning people about doing over 5cm years ago when it was common to see diaries of guys doing 7,8 even 9 cm on tibia!
Nothing but respect for Sweden & his honesty.
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I understand when people who are perhaps only 150cm want to be 170 cm and not 160 cm, which is still short. But it does not help if you risk very serious complications with every inch more.
Diaries are always mentioned here and many users are really afraid because of negative reports of other patients. But in my opinion you must not overlook one thing. If everything went well, you are not so motivated to register to a forum and share your story with the world as if something went wrong because then you are pissed of and disappointed and want to warn other people! So its very important to get to know patients with limb lengthening procedures who had bad experiences and find out what went wrong. I appreciate that these patients share their information with us. Such diaries have to be taken very seriously but perhaps, been weighted too heavily. I am convinced that there are also many happy, satisfied but unknown patients with successful surgeries and recoveries of whom we know nothing because they never write and tell a word about their cases.
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^There are a number of diaries which begin *before* the day of surgery, or very close to it.
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I understand when people who are perhaps only 150cm want to be 170 cm and not 160 cm, which is still short. But it does not help if you risk very serious complications with every inch more.
Diaries are always mentioned here and many users are really afraid because of negative reports of other patients. But in my opinion you must not overlook one thing. If everything went well, you are not so motivated to register to a forum and share your story with the world as if something went wrong because then you are pissed of and disappointed and want to warn other people! So its very important to get to know patients with limb lengthening procedures who had bad experiences and find out what went wrong. I appreciate that these patients share their information with us. Such diaries have to be taken very seriously but perhaps, been weighted too heavily. I am convinced that there are also many happy, satisfied but unknown patients with successful surgeries and recoveries of whom we know nothing because they never write and tell a word about their cases.
I totally agree. I believe the overwhelmingly vast majority of patients are perfectly fine, their surgeries went without problems. Whether they are happy with their proportions and new height and in life, in general, that is another questions. But from purely surgical point of view I am absolutely certain that almost all surgeries, statistically speaking, go without complications. People are just not into writing in online forums. Especially when everything is fine. If it is not, they might consider asking for an advice or warning others but otherwise they just move on with their life.
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I got bad news fior you guys doing ll
i should have listened to swden... dont go over 5 cm if u must do this surgery
something ive never brought up either
even before my achilles surgery... when i was in morocco.. i would walk to the bathroom and back..
now one day, i noticed something... it just seemed like i had lost power.... didnt think much of it at that time, but it was noticeable...
this occurred around 5 cm or so
now if i hadnt gotten the achilles surgery, id be better... and i still think ill recover, even if i have to do more surgeries, and get a prosthesis.. i think ill be walking ok again
dont go over 5 cm..... my ballerina and power issues seemingly overnight...
dont do this surgery... if you do it, then 5 cm max
what swden says about not doing thihs even if he has to, i can relate to that
for me, and im sure for himself too, I wouldn't think about going for a walk, or having to run if needed.. it was so easy and natural
now its something that's constantly on my mind...
only way either of us is gonna be ok is if exchanged our current legs with better ones
its not biomechanics.. its the stretching of the tendons, nerves and muscles, along with bone issues
dont get this surgery
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another thing
getting a rod in your legs will make it hard to kneel
my left leg hurts like hell when i kneel because of the rod and screws... right one is ok
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It's not very painful. Just daily difficulties.
I regret going past my goal of 6cm. I went for 7cm bc the other guys looked good even after doing 8cm.
It will be impossible to fix my X-legs and the foot. The foot has already healed improperly and it's the femurs that are twisted which causes the X-legs.
LL will fk your body up.
Sweden,
i am at the same height as you before LL, do u feel the last cm had a hugh impact on ur bio-mechanics and recovery ?
i am thinking of 6cm at most, i would be happy with 179, but i have short legs, mine seating height is similar to mine 5'10 friend, but mine legs..............
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Sweden,
i am at the same height as you before LL, do u feel the last cm had a hugh impact on ur bio-mechanics and recovery ?
i am thinking of 6cm at most, i would be happy with 179, but i have short legs, mine seating height is similar to mine 5'10 friend, but mine legs..............
If you're 179 right now you are a total idiot if you do LL.
You will mess up your body for life. You need to get it that doing more than 5cm is catastrophic. Doing LL at your current starting height is useless and insane.
Don't do it.
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If you're 179 right now you are a total idiot if you do LL.
You will mess up your body for life. You need to get it that doing more than 5cm is catastrophic. Doing LL at your current starting height is useless and insane.
Don't do it.
No, he is 171 (or something around that height) If I remeber correcctly.
Aren´t you still thinking about femur lengthening?
How much better do you think would your recovery have been if you had only lengthened 3,5-4cm´s instead of the 7 you did?
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Sweden, my tibias measure in at 38cm long. If I keep lengthening to around 10%, so 4cm gain, would that be catastrophic? I value your opinion more since you actually did LL. Also In your opinion would I make a recovery close to 100%? do I need Achilles lengthening?
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it's not the biomechanics, its the soft tissue stretching which really messes everything up
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Crimson, if i lengthen only 5 cm, will it be alot better?
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No, he is 171 (or something around that height) If I remeber correcctly.
Aren´t you still thinking about femur lengthening?
How much better do you think would your recovery have been if you had only lengthened 3,5-4cm´s instead of the 7 you did?
I'm thinking about it. Yes. But it will probably not happen in 5 years at least.
If I did 4cm instead of 7 it would be WAY better recovery. But I would feel cheated, not getting enough height ending up 176/177.
I should have stopped at a MAXIMUM of 5,5. No more.
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Sweden, my tibias measure in at 38cm long. If I keep lengthening to around 10%, so 4cm gain, would that be catastrophic? I value your opinion more since you actually did LL. Also In your opinion would I make a recovery close to 100%? do I need Achilles lengthening?
It won't be catastrophic doing only 4cm. You should ask yourself if you will be happy with only 4cm.
Forget 100% recovery. It will never happen.
Nobody can tell if you need Achilles lengthening. Probably not if you do only 4cm and stand up every day and do your physio.
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Sweden, my tibias measure in at 38cm long. If I keep lengthening to around 10%, so 4cm gain, would that be catastrophic? I value your opinion more since you actually did LL. Also In your opinion would I make a recovery close to 100%? do I need Achilles lengthening?
Usually 15% is the cut off, although some doctor says 20% is max. 4cm is very safe.
You are unlikely needing AL as long as you stretch before and after surgery every day. Sweden had a very bad doctor, so be careful who you choose. Dr Lee in Korea said patients doing less than 5cm mostly had close to 100% recovery (and so as my mom)
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sweden, how about 5 cm?
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no, 5 cm is not better
i mean it might be better in terms of recovery, but is it really worth it
thats the thing about ll.. you go over 5 cm, and complications come... but is it really woryh it for 4 cm???
youre breaking your legs, and complications can still occur below 5 cm
this surgery is not worth it... the soft tissue damage is too much..
think about this... ill be better after a below knee prosthesis than I am right now
the soft tissue damage is tremendous
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It won't be catastrophic doing only 4cm. You should ask yourself if you will be happy with only 4cm.
Forget 100% recovery. It will never happen.
Nobody can tell if you need Achilles lengthening. Probably not if you do only 4cm and stand up every day and do your physio.
I would say it will make me happy, because I will be going from 5'7 to just under 5'9 which increases my height percentile drastically.
In what ways can a 100% recovery be impossible? Are there small pains and chronic discomforts? Can you expand on that? Thanks
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It's somewhat annoying that people who went to bad doctors decide to make their own experience as a general experience... Tibial lengthening is also possible to a max of 10cm (There is an australian Israeli born politician that added 8cm to her tibias in Russia... You can check it out on google and she is perfectly fine...). Complications can happen even with the best doctor.. But what's important is if the doctor can heal/repair those complications... You sweden got malallignment which wasnt taken care of (And the Ilizarov method is also done for people with misallignment (or however you spell it). You went to an awful doctor not a good one.. Same goes for Crimsontide... If this method did destroy lives and cripple everyone, it wouldnt be done in children by the tens of thousends...... Sorry
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tbike, youre living in a fantasy land if you think 10 cm on an adult is possible without complications
tbike... do you realize that there's a major difference between children and adults when it comes to surgery???
children can do much more than 10 cm, and come out okay... certainly not an adult in his 20's or 30's
if you disagree, fine...
tbike, i want to see peer reviewed papers on the outcomes of doing 10 cm lengthening on HEALTHY ADULTS
if these papers do not exist, then I think it's fair to say that your claim is false
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tbike, youre living in a fantasy land if you think 10 cm on an adult is possible without complications
tbike... do you realize that there's a major difference between children and adults when it comes to surgery???
children can do much more than 10 cm, and come out okay... certainly not an adult in his 20's or 30's
if you disagree, fine...
tbike, i want to see peer reviewed papers on the outcomes of doing 10 cm lengthening on HEALTHY ADULTS
if these papers do not exist, then I think it's fair to say that your claim is false
I said 10cm on children. No I do not recommend to do 10cm on adults... I still believe that the upper safe limit is somewhere around 6-7cm (reading diaries in old forum and seeing cases of limb disperancies in adults). Btw, where did I write anything about 10cm?
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my apologies then
but even 6 or 7 cm... where are the studies on healthy and normal adults? this 6-7 cm limit seems to be largely made up, though I might be wrong
I certainly don't think 7 cm is safe, based on my own experience, and from reading many diaries, but that's not very scientific
I just don't think theres much evidence out there to judge the safety of ll when performed on healthy adults
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my apologies then
but even 6 or 7 cm... where are the studies on healthy and normal adults? this 6-7 cm limit seems to be largely made up, though I might be wrong
I certainly don't think 7 cm is safe, based on my own experience, and from reading many diaries, but that's not very scientific
I just don't think theres much evidence out there to judge the safety of ll when performed on healthy adults
I compare my case (or any CLL case for that matter) with limb disperancies in adults. These operations are usually done when the disperancy is more than 3.5cm. Catagni (which together with Cattaneo brought the Ilizarov technique to the west and thought many orthopedic surgerons) put the numbers between 5-8cm. He has a case study (which you can see on this site going to the doctors list "catagni 2015 update") of 54 cosmetic patients who did CLL of 5-8 or even 9cm with a follow-up of a few years that was published in a british orthopedics journal. He said that there were complications but that they were treated. Also, our family friend that is one of the best orthopedics surgerons in Israel (PROFESSOR Rami moshayov which is the head of the Hadassa medical center of Jerusalem for traumatic orthopedics) said that they tried to do CLL in Israel with the Ilizarov technique but that almost no body passed the psycological test so that's why it wasnt worth it. I asked him about Catagni and about the risks of this surgery... He said to me that Catagni is "The best of the best" and that I will put myself in safe hands with him but that I should prepare myself for a very hard psychological journey (And that I should think if I am capable of this kind of feat). If this surgery was as dangerous and almost a sure way to cripple myself he would have told me and my mom to not even think about it.
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tbike
you brought up a very important point
Israeli dr that that didn't perform ll because basically no one passed his pre screening
also, getting 1 leg broken and lengthened is not even close to being the same thing as having 2 broken, so limb discrepancy cases while interesting, aren't that relevant
having 2 legs broken compared to 1 is not 2x as bad, but like 10x as bad... there's a huge difference... and it has an effect on our recovery
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tbike
you brought up a very important point
Israeli dr that that didn't perform ll because basically no one passed his pre screening
also, getting 1 leg broken and lengthened is not even close to being the same thing as having 2 broken, so limb discrepancy cases while interesting, aren't that relevant
having 2 legs broken compared to 1 is not 2x as bad, but like 10x as bad... there's a huge difference... and it has an effect on our recovery
Not no one... But not enought (He said that for state hospital to have a department open for only 10-20 people a year is not worth it economically... In Israel the system works in a way that a state hospital can also do private intervention.. Which means that if I as an Israeli want to do with a private doctor a gastric sleeve surgery for example, I only pay 30% of the fee while the state health security pays the other 70%... It's a complicated system in Israel to explain here... But basically in terms of healthcare we are almost communists which is great :D). Yeah... The pain is much worse and being temporarly crippled is a huge toll on the psych.... But if you prepare physically and mentally good enough and long enough for it, you can make it.
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I'm gonna visit Israel in the next year
don't discount how bad it is to have 2 broken legs... it's really bad... if I had 1 broken leg, I never would have had achilles surgery... having 2 broken legs with ballerina makes life very very difficult
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I'm gonna visit Israel in the next year
don't discount how bad it is to have 2 broken legs... it's really bad... if I had 1 broken leg, I never would have had achilles surgery... having 2 broken legs with ballerina makes life very very difficult
I will be happy to give you a tour of Jerusalem :)
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sweet:)))
let's do it
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I'm gonna visit Israel in the next year
don't discount how bad it is to have 2 broken legs... it's really bad... if I had 1 broken leg, I never would have had achilles surgery... having 2 broken legs with ballerina makes life very very difficult
This is why for me I keep coming back to Dr Monegal in my mind. The idea of having two broken legs and essentially being crippled (not that one is exactly a walk in the park) genuinely freaks me the hell out.
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This is why for me I keep coming back to Dr Monegal in my mind. The idea of having two broken legs and essentially being crippled (not that one is exactly a walk in the park) genuinely freaks me the hell out.
I'm not against doing one leg, you can ask other doctors to do one leg at a time, but don't go to Spain. Cooper had just one tibia done and had problems. Musicmaker had just one femur done and had problems. None of them could walk although they had done one-stage surgeries. Both crippled and needing corrections. Getting just one leg done doesn't mean you will be complication-free. Just my 2 cents, my opinion (I can give my opinion as Crinsomtide does and everybody else here).
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Out of the people who were unsatisfied in the collection of diaries, they all did 6cm and above. How much safer is just doing 3.5cm?
For those who have already done tibias, do you think you would have a better recovery and almost no complications if you stopped at 3.5cm?
Hypothetically, you would have done it with only external fixators.
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I want to make this surgery but I m afraid...
Can u advice me? Which dr can I have?
Germany dr Betz? No complications?
i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...
guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok
I can already walk. etc etc
i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and it has zero impact on function
Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters
For most people, while technically they will not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference
the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...
I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or motor function
Being short sucks
[/quote]
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What was your starting height Crimson? Some of us here are 163 man
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I want to make this surgery but I m afraid...
Can u advice me? Which dr can I have?
Germany dr Betz? No complications?
i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...
guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok
I can already walk. etc etc
i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and it has zero impact on function
Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters
For most people, while technically they will not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference
the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...
I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or motor function
Being short sucks
Dear Joubran:
who is your dr?
I would like to get more information for your dr
thanks
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It's somewhat annoying that people who went to bad doctors decide to make their own experience as a general experience... Tibial lengthening is also possible to a max of 10cm (There is an australian Israeli born politician that added 8cm to her tibias in Russia... You can check it out on google and she is perfectly fine...). Complications can happen even with the best doctor.. But what's important is if the doctor can heal/repair those complications... You sweden got malallignment which wasnt taken care of (And the Ilizarov method is also done for people with misallignment (or however you spell it). You went to an awful doctor not a good one.. Same goes for Crimsontide... If this method did destroy lives and cripple everyone, it wouldnt be done in children by the tens of thousends...... Sorry
What children are you talking about? ???
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What children are you talking about? ???
children with Acondroplasia and leg disperancies
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This post is for those interested in athletic recovery following limb lengthening, its been posted multiple times but finally it's on a permanent thread. It is a quote from Dr Donghoon Lee who has successfully performed hundreds of cosmetic limb lengthening operations. The quote is from Walk6 diary on old forum who had tibia lengthening with Dr Lee.
"I personally asked Dr. Lee what he thought about this (lengthening past 6 cm) and he has told me that from his experience in talking to former lengthening patients (2-3 years post recovery) those that only lengthened 5 cm recovered fully and their previous athleticism returned close to 100% to pre-LL levels. On the other hand, those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions (walking, light jogging, etc), BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities (full sprinting, jumping, basketball, rugby,etc..). Additionally, those that lengthened beyond 7 cm saw an ever greater decline in their previous athletic abilities.
In short, those who lengthen beyond 5 cm will not be able to recover all of their pre-LL athletic abilities because their muscles, nerves, tendons will be stretched well beyond their natural limits and will be permanently damaged. He used the rubber band analogy and Dr. Lee believes strongly in this. Once a rubber band (muscle) is stretched beyond its natural limit, even if its by only half a centimeter, then it will begin to tear and will forever lose its previous elasticity. The muscle's natural limit seems to be at 5 cm for many patients, though it can be higher or lower depending on the patient's initial tibia/femur length."
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This post is for those interested in athletic recovery following limb lengthening, its been posted multiple times but finally it's on a permanent thread. It is a quote from Dr Donghoon Lee who has successfully performed hundreds of cosmetic limb lengthening operations. The quote is from Walk6 diary on old forum who had tibia lengthening with Dr Lee.
"I personally asked Dr. Lee what he thought about this (lengthening past 6 cm) and he has told me that from his experience in talking to former lengthening patients (2-3 years post recovery) those that only lengthened 5 cm recovered fully and their previous athleticism returned close to 100% to pre-LL levels. On the other hand, those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions (walking, light jogging, etc), BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities (full sprinting, jumping, basketball, rugby,etc..). Additionally, those that lengthened beyond 7 cm saw an ever greater decline in their previous athletic abilities.
In short, those who lengthen beyond 5 cm will not be able to recover all of their pre-LL athletic abilities because their muscles, nerves, tendons will be stretched well beyond their natural limits and will be permanently damaged. He used the rubber band analogy and Dr. Lee believes strongly in this. Once a rubber band (muscle) is stretched beyond its natural limit, even if its by only half a centimeter, then it will begin to tear and will forever lose its previous elasticity. The muscle's natural limit seems to be at 5 cm for many patients, though it can be higher or lower depending on the patient's initial tibia/femur length."
Tell that to Lumier and the other ex Catagni patients I have spoken to who all lengthened between 7-8cm
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I have seen zero evidence that suggests patients will recover pre surgery athletic abilities
I mean 0.
I have never seen evidence that even 1 patient has recovered 100% of their athletic abilities as determined by actual testing
None
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Tell that to Lumier and the other ex Catagni patients I have spoken to who all lengthened between 7-8cm
I think I'll take the word of a top orthopedic surgeon who has seen hundreds of follow up cases over your
complete lack of evidence.
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I think I'll take the word of a top orthopedic surgeon who has seen hundreds of follow up cases over your
complete lack of evidence.
Funny thing is that I am doing the same
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Tell that to Lumier and the other ex Catagni patients I have spoken to who all lengthened between 7-8cm
The only running that has been seen that was close to normal was OBG who did 6cm on femur, shyshy looked OK at 7.5cm but not really natural. Not surprising that you didn't post supporting video for your claims. That's not a personal attack as everyone on here wants to justify their preselected lengthening amount.
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permanent effects of LL:
- sexual attractiveness
- respect from your peers
- more likelihood to climb the corporate ladder
- 'leadership skills'
- 'confidence'
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I'd like to get an overall increase of 2", which on top of 1.5" boots and 0.7" lifts would bring me to an even 6'. Would I still have these problems if I went 1" (2.54cm exactly) on both femur and tibia? I don't want to go too far with limb lengthening, since my wingspan is around 5'9".
From what you guys are saying, I would be able to do this without much in the way of complications. Has anyone tried combining rGH and/or IGF-1 injections with limb lengthening to increase recovery/promote faster soft tissue production?
(I can't touch my toes and am not flexible, my lumbar region doesn't bend, if that makes a difference)
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Everyone here wants to LL to much and maybe your not even able to do 5cm on YOUR bone segment the longer your legs are the better it might be to do for you. People who look great and like models have to eat diets no one wants to eat and take drugs to stay thin don't be shocked if your good looking and you have to get hooked on pain killers like most people are or on Xanax.
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Everyone here wants to LL to much and maybe your not even able to do 5cm on YOUR bone segment the longer your legs are the better it might be to do for you. People who look great and like models have to eat diets no one wants to eat and take drugs to stay thin don't be shocked if your good looking and you have to get hooked on pain killers like most people are or on Xanax.
Lol, ok.
Thanks for sharing.
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Would you do 7 cm with fitbone, how much time I recover.
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I wouldnt do 7cm on any segment unless you will enjoy hard recoveris additional complications(like nerve injury) and have a huge chance to walk like 60yo.
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So, Yourspaceboyfriend what amount do you recommend with an internal nail
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Some doctors advise you to do more because they dont care like Betz
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6 cm is safe?
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For all cases, youll never be 100% ok
For some of them you wont come alive or wont walk anymore. There are some examples in this forum
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For all cases, youll never be 100% ok
For some of them you wont come alive or wont walk anymore. There are some examples in this forum
Why do you keep on resurrecting 1 year old topics to scare people? You haven't done LL and won't even do LL.
Anyone expecting to be 100% did not do enough research, but we all know that a high level of recovery is possible. You can go back to playing sports, hike the Alps, jump off walls, dance the night away, just your muscles won't be as explosive as they once were.
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I wouldnt do 7cm on any segment unless you will enjoy hard recoveris additional complications(like nerve injury) and have a huge chance to walk like 60yo.
Not sure if you're a doctor, but many people breeze through 8cm internal femurs and walk at 4 or 5 months
Source: me, I did LL.
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Not sure if you're a doctor, but many people breeze through 8cm internal femurs and walk at 4 or 5 months
Source: me, I did LL.
Really dependent on the individual.. Check out Doingitforme's diary if you haven't already... 7-8cm is typically a harder recovery.
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permanent effects of LL:
- sexual attractiveness
- respect from your peers
- more likelihood to climb the corporate ladder
- 'leadership skills'
- 'confidence'
Had to comment on this.... Hate getting sucked into this s**t haha..... Climbing the corporate ladder has nothing to do with height. Leadership skills are based on your character and the interpersonal skills you possess.. Respect from your peers; I'd say that this has a ring of truth to it, but over emphasised. Sexual attractiveness; it's one tick in the box when it comes to overall attractiveness. Confidence; Hell yeah!
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Had to comment on this.... Hate getting sucked into this s**t haha..... Climbing the corporate ladder has nothing to do with height. Leadership skills are based on your character and the interpersonal skills you possess.. Respect from your peers; I'd say that this has a ring of truth to it, but over emphasised. Sexual attractiveness; it's one tick in the box when it comes to overall attractiveness. Confidence; Hell yeah!
Lol, so true.
I haven't done as well as I have professionally because of height, that's for damn sure. Hell, the guy I bought out in the company I own half of is 6'4
(I know, because he's a friend of mine and likes to brag about it. He's now married to a 6'2 amazon that likes to wear 4" heels. Wanna feel short? Stand next to a woman that is 6'6 in heels... :o )
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For all cases, youll never be 100% ok
For some of them you wont come alive or wont walk anymore. There are some examples in this forum
Yes, LL is so deadly that some guys don't even survive the initial consultation. ::)
I have a consultation in September...I hope I don't deaded.
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(I know, because he's a friend of mine and likes to brag about it. He's now married to a 6'2 amazon that likes to wear 4" heels. Wanna feel short? Stand next to a woman that is 6'6 in heels... :o )
She probably has pretty dopeass legs lol.
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She probably has pretty dopeass legs lol.
Let's just say...at her current body weight I feel sorry for her heels.
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One thing that I find mind shattering on this forum(and on the old forum as well) is the kind of issues people obsess over as they are inquiring about or even doing LL. I find people obsessing over proportions(which does not even register as a concern for me.)
Even 'health' related discussions are mostly about soft tissues, while no body is addressing(or maybe even noticing) the elephant in the room. Your main concern should be: what kind of bones will I have after this is all over? and how will my LL choices affect this aspect of the outcome.
Here, I am referring mainly to osteoporosis(since bone deformities are a short term complication, and by the time lengthening and consolidation are finished a patient will have known if he\she has to deal with it or not.) I have found forums to provide little to no information on this complication. A patient's LL might be over for 15-40 years before they suffer this condition, and it just MAY BE that it was caused by LL.
Upon comparing methods(internal vs external) with this in mind, I find a strong tendency to think that externals provide better LONG TERM outcome(what a shock, right? I mean this is totally against conventional wisdom.) With internals you lose the bone marrow(and perhaps other stuff as well) of the operated bone segments. Bone marrow plays a major role in your bone remodeling
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7816067
I am guessing here(but this is an educated guess) that when this process becomes faulty one becomes likely to develop osteoporosis. Sure your body might find a way to compensate for the absence of bone marrow, when you are still young, but will this go on through your older-elderly years?
Any help in answering these questions would be appreciated(especially if it comes in the form of information extracted from medical articles.)
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One thing that I find mind shattering on this forum(and on the old forum as well) is the kind of issues people obsess over as they are inquiring about or even doing LL. I find people obsessing over proportions(which does not even register as a concern for me.)
Even 'health' related discussions are mostly about soft tissues, while no body is addressing(or maybe even noticing) the elephant in the room. Your main concern should be: what kind of bones will I have after this is all over? and how will my LL choices affect this aspect of the outcome.
Here, I am referring mainly to osteoporosis(since bone deformities are a short term complication, and by the time lengthening and consolidation are finished a patient will have known if he\she has to deal with it or not.) I have found forums to provide little to no information on this complication. A patient's LL might be over for 15-40 years before they suffer this condition, and it just MAY BE that it was caused by LL.
Upon comparing methods(internal vs external) with this in mind, I find a strong tendency to think that externals provide better LONG TERM outcome(what a shock, right? I mean this is totally against conventional wisdom.) With internals you lose the bone marrow(and perhaps other stuff as well) of the operated bone segments. Bone marrow plays a major role in your bone remodeling
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7816067
I am guessing here(but this is an educated guess) that when this process becomes faulty one becomes likely to develop osteoporosis. Sure your body might find a way to compensate for the absence of bone marrow, when you are still young, but will this go on through your older-elderly years?
Any help in answering these questions would be appreciated(especially if it comes in the form of information extracted from medical articles.)
Good post, Greco.
Yep, I'm also shocked by some people's priorities. Things like proportions or being or not able to squat 150 kg post-op should be the last concern!
As for the bone marrow thing, it is a serious question and it would be great if a doctor answers it. Too bad all the registered doctors have abandoned the forum after the continuous trollololing and false accusations.
I'm not an expert, but -as far as I know- the yellow marrow to be found inside femurs does not play the highly important roles the red marrow does.
"Yellow bone marrow is found in the hollow interior of the diaphyseal portion, or shaft of long bones. Its main function is to store adipocytes whose triglycerides can serve as a source for energy. The marrow fat is physiologically different than the subcutaneous fat in the body, and is the last fat to be lost due to starvation."
Source: http://www.conversantbio.com/blog/red-bone-marrow-vs.-yellow-bone-marrow-what-is-the-difference
There is also red marrow inside the femurs, but in adults it is mostly located at the epiphyseal ends ("heads") of the bones.
(http://images.radiopaedia.org/images/2898475/2f6e0f47b8b308f0becb034aed62e8_thumb.jpeg)
I'm not sure if this is also reamed when the nails are inserted.
I also appreciate any feedback on this topic.
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Hi Ozymandias,
Well I have asked one of the doctors who do internals about the effects of losing the bone marrow of the operated bone in an email, and he said that it would be better if I talk it over with him in a consultation(so no answer.)
There is also red marrow inside the femurs, but in adults it is mostly located at the epiphyseal ends ("heads") of the bones.
(http://images.radiopaedia.org/images/2898475/2f6e0f47b8b308f0becb034aed62e8_thumb.jpeg)
I'm not sure if this is also reamed when the nails are inserted.
The proximal end of the femur(this is the one highlighted in your picture) probably gets reamed as well(the drill goes right through it.)
Reaming also raises other concerns. Here it says that the surgeon would ream the canal so that it's diameter would become 1.5 mms greater than that of the nail to be inserted:
http://www.bjj.boneandjoint.org.uk/content/89-B/11/1421
I would expect that this would mean that your endosteum as well as part of the inner wall of your compact bone would have to go(the compact bone is only a few mellimeters thick)
This is a reference picture for the anatomy of a long bone:
(http://humananatomy.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/anatomy-of-a-long-bone-cartilage-and-bones.png)
the thinning of the bone wall as well as the loss of marrow also raises biomechanical concerns about the resilience of the resulting bone(a cylindrical object A that has some viscous material inside should be more resilient than a hollow cylindrical object B, even more so when B has a thinner wall than A)
Back to the cellular aspects of the topic:
Your body would still have red bone marrow in other bones, but could this marrow stored far away from your operated bones supply them with osteoblasts and osteoclasts in the same efficiency, as did the marrow which they lost?
It would be great if somebody gets these questions to a surgeon who does internals.
In any case... ideas?
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Interesting stuff, Greco (and kinda worrying, to be honest)
As for reaming the "head" of the bone, I'm not sure. I've seen x-rays where the nail is placed next to the top, however others look like this one:
http://www.abc.es/Media/201406/02/image%202--478x891.jpg
In a paper by Frank Birkholtz I posted here quite recently, he discussed a failure of nail distraction during femoral lengthening, which was apparently caused by an insufficient reaming. Therefore, it seems that surgeons are quite cautious about reaming too much.
I will try to investigate this as far as I can. Hope others contribute as well.
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Found some nice stuff about bone reaming and its consequences (I have highlighted the words "bone" and "reaming" in order to make lecture kinda easier)
Obviously the book is huge, and includes some interesting data about intramedullary rodding, but focusing on the reaming part (pages 279-281)
https://books.google.es/books?id=8sLNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=bone+reaming&source=bl&ots=WfOqZcHm-F&sig=TX21I_CTVfsWpsdoKnOqL7RoP-I&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxy_mAhevOAhWBXRoKHSk4AEgQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=bone%20reaming&f=false
(Hope the link works for everyone. I have screencaped some parts in case it doesn't. If some pages are not shown, you can always google the following parts, and hopefully they will appear)
"Destruction of the medullary contents by reaming has both local and systemic consequences. Reaming obliterates the remaining medullary blood supply after injury. This vascular system reconstitutes in 2 to 3 weeks."
"Therefore, destruction of marrow during reaming does not produce anemia, apart from that created through blood loss into the soft tissues"
So I'm guessing that the vascular system of the bone does not suffer long-term effects. Can someone confirm this?
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Why are proportions, biomechanics, soft tissue damage or anything else any less important than this basically "new" thing about bone marrow?
Bone reaming is also being done for the installation of titanium rods which have nothing to do with LL or CLL... If the method would have dire consequnces, the reaming for any reason would not be practiced....
Adult bone marrow is a viscous fluid made of fats and water (And that's from where the risk of fat embolism comes from during internal CLL). There is nothing important in this fluid according to what science know till now. Maybe it is important maybe it isnt but no one knows now... People live pretty good without an entire leg (loss of limb for whatever reason)... They dont suffer any kind of anemia or immune disfunction which means that the body can compensate..
Sorry, but it almost sound like trying very hard to find a reason as to why not to do this surgery... There are enough risks as it is... No need to add a new imaginary one
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Ok. I did expect that some people would lash back at me when I try to start a detailed scientific discussion, since details get people worried and consequently are not popular. But here is the thing: Refraining from thinking and researching will not make the consequeces and dangers go away. Just because you do not see something on somes doctor's website FAQ section does not mean it is not there. I say this with no hard feelings, and I can understand that you(I am assuming you did internals) do not want to think about this stuff.
Now, I will reply in as much detail as possible:
Why are proportions, biomechanics, soft tissue damage or anything else any less important than this basically "new" thing about bone marrow?
If you go back to my posts you can see that I was talking about biomechanics as something which IS IMPORTANT. As for proportions: I sit down in the train and look around me and find 10 guys whose proportions I would have if I did 20 cms. A person with average proportions would need to do a drastic amount to become disproportionate, not to mention most short guys have very low leg/body ratios. In any case proportion is not a health concern. When it comes to soft tissue damage, the reason bone quality is more important(I am not saying soft tissues are not important) is that soft tissues almost always get better after the procedure given enough time. I cannot say the same is true with bones(bone remodelling does not have to restore your bones to their previous strength if they get reamed, and if you do not like what I am saying give me evidence(Maybe now, you will say that there is no evidence to the opposite, but the opposite is what one would intuitively expect.))
Bone reaming is also being done for the installation of titanium rods which have nothing to do with LL or CLL... If the method would have dire consequnces, the reaming for any reason would not be practiced....
Adult bone marrow is a viscous fluid made of fats and water (And that's from where the risk of fat embolism comes from during internal CLL).
Yes doctors have been doing this for a while, but this does not mean they know what physiological changes it causes within a 50 years span(I would appreciate articles about follow up after REAMED nailing(sometimes nailing is done with no reaming))
There is nothing important in this fluid according to what science know till now. Maybe it is important maybe it isnt but no one knows now...
Remember that we are talking about reaming and loss of bone marrow. These are not the same thing.
By the way, some articles which I have read say that the material released from reaming plays a role in the healing of the fracture(look up the section "Autografting by debris from intramedullary nailing"):
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://medicaljobinterview.org.uk/orthopaediceducation/books/images/pdf/FRCS%2520Orth%2520evidence%2520base%2520course/Presentation%2520for%2520Delegates/IM%2520Nailing%2520Biological%2520and%2520physiological%2520effect%2520%255BCompatibility%2520Mode%255D.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiY_JecsO7OAhVDNxQKHXWPC_44ChAWCCcwBA&usg=AFQjCNF2INneFQuTGSRezU_mGxMxnlS5sA
...so reaming makes you lose more than just fat.
People live pretty good without an entire leg (loss of limb for whatever reason)... They dont suffer any kind of anemia or immune disfunction which means that the body can compensate..
Remember that we are talking about the effect of reaming on the operated bone segments and what happens when this segment loses ITS OWN marrow. If the segment has been amputated, everything we are talking about becomes irrelevant.
Sorry, but it almost sound like trying very hard to find a reason as to why not to do this surgery... There are enough risks as it is... No need to add a new imaginary one
I am very detrmined about having the procedure(for both tibiae and femurs) but I want to figure out the best procedure, and I can't unless I ask the big hairy questions.
I will not answer any more replies written in the same tone and attitude as the last one.
Best,
El Greco
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Ok. I did expect that some people would lash back at me when I try to start a detailed scientific discussion, since details get people worried and consequently are not popular. But here is the thing: Refraining from thinking and researching will not make the consequeces and dangers go away. Just because you do not see something on somes doctor's website FAQ section does not mean it is not there. I say this with no hard feelings, and I can understand that you(I am assuming you did internals) do not want to think about this stuff.
Now, I will reply in as much detail as possible:
If you go back to my posts you can see that I was talking about biomechanics as something which IS IMPORTANT. As for proportions: I sit down in the train and look around me and find 10 guys whose proportions I would have if I did 20 cms. A person with average proportions would need to do a drastic amount to become disproportionate, not to mention most short guys have very low leg/body ratios. In any case proportion is not a health concern. When it comes to soft tissue damage, the reason bone quality is more important(I am not saying soft tissues are not important) is that soft tissues almost always get better after the procedure given enough time. I cannot say the same is true with bones(bone remodelling does not have to restore your bones to their previous strength if they get reamed, and if you do not like what I am saying give me evidence(Maybe now, you will say that there is no evidence to the opposite, but the opposite is what one would intuitively expect.))
Yes doctors have been doing this for a while, but this does not mean they know what physiological changes it causes within a 50 years span(I would appreciate articles about follow up after REAMED nailing(sometimes nailing is done with no reaming))
Remember that we are talking about reaming and loss of bone marrow. These are not the same thing.
By the way, some articles which I have read say that the material released from reaming plays a role in the healing of the fracture(look up the section "Autografting by debris from intramedullary nailing"):
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://medicaljobinterview.org.uk/orthopaediceducation/books/images/pdf/FRCS%2520Orth%2520evidence%2520base%2520course/Presentation%2520for%2520Delegates/IM%2520Nailing%2520Biological%2520and%2520physiological%2520effect%2520%255BCompatibility%2520Mode%255D.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiY_JecsO7OAhVDNxQKHXWPC_44ChAWCCcwBA&usg=AFQjCNF2INneFQuTGSRezU_mGxMxnlS5sA
...so reaming makes you lose more than just fat.
Remember that we are talking about the effect of reaming on the operated bone segments and what happens when this segment loses ITS OWN marrow. If the segment has been amputated, everything we are talking about becomes irrelevant.
I am very detrmined about having the procedure(for both tibiae and femurs) but I want to figure out the best procedure, and I can't unless I ask the big hairy questions.
I will not answer any more replies written in the same tone and attitude as the last one.
Best,
El Greco
Muscle tissue, nerve tissue or any other mesenchimal tissue cannot repair themselves completely... This is why there is a big concern regarding "soft tissue" (Although, I recently had a cup of coffee that exploded for some reason in my hand cutting part of my Tenar muscles groups which resulted in scar tissue in the muscle itself... Fortunately, I am happy to report that after the removal of all the stitches, the function of my thumb has almost returned to 100% almost 1 month after the incident. This has given me some relief in terms that muscle function can recover pretty good even if something like 20% of my muscle fibers according to the doc who operated my hand were completely cut).
Now about the bone marrow stuff. Since it's not full of any pluripotent cells like young human marrow, the liquid is replenished (as far as I know... I might be wrong) which means that after nail removal, things go back to how they were... Post nail removal x-rays that were posted here and on old forum didnt seem to hint at a "hollow bone" so this is no concern as much as I believe.
Frankly, I dont really care what will happen to me when I will reach my 50's or 60's because (1) I want to do it as young as possible in order to "use" the advantages of being taller when they are mostly applied (everyone gets less and less superficial as they age... Especially women for which most of us do this surgery in the first place) (2) by that time I am pretty sure that medicine will be pretty advanced in order to fix any long term concequences.
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Ok. I did expect that some people would lash back at me when I try to start a detailed scientific discussion, since details get people worried and consequently are not popular. But here is the thing: Refraining from thinking and researching will not make the consequeces and dangers go away. Just because you do not see something on somes doctor's website FAQ section does not mean it is not there. I say this with no hard feelings, and I can understand that you(I am assuming you did internals) do not want to think about this stuff.
Sorry El Greco, but I don't think you've magically discovered some big risk that the entire LL medical community has missed. the yellow marrow in an adult bone doesn't have any vital function which is why reaming and internal nails are acceptable in the first place not only for LL, but regular broken bones too. further, the marrow grows back after removal like others have pointed out.
I would be more concerned about real risks like PE from reaming. LL has plenty of important risks you should be worried about, but I think you're making a big deal out of a non-issue on this one. If still concerns you though, then I would go ahead and ask your surgeon before you do LL.
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even with a good doctor like Paley/Guichet and training your flexibility months before?? This is nonsense...
The real answer is that it varies by the individual. If you are athletic, exercise and stretch regularly, have a good doctor doing the procedure, and have a positive outlook during lengthening, you will find it very rewarding. I myself haven't lengthened yet but from reading the diaries of ppl that were lengthened by good doctors, I can tell that you will be more happy if you put 100% effort into it and focus on your goal.
I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.
I think that's a beautiful reply! ;)
In case of having an actual chance to do it, I would surely workout and stretch a lot before doing it and really put myself into it!
I guess it could even be life changing and, maybe, while looking for this one goal of surgery, non-active people could find in sports a new reason to feel good with their own height.
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Wooov.. I can go thru anything with tall height .. just not limb amputation or paralyzed :p
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Wooov.. I can go thru anything with tall height .. just not limb amputation or paralyzed :p
then go with expert doctor, not ones in your height. trust me you will destroy your marriage and everything if something wrong happen.
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I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.
Height is not something that is "deserved" at all. So many people get a good height completely for free, they do nothing to "deserve" it, they are born with a certain set of genetics, they grow up, and when they are 16 or 17, they reach their final height, that's it. Height is not some kind of award for great deeds, and should not be treated as such. If someone decids to do LL, he should know it's a step with many consequences, and if he prepares well or if he doesn't prepare well, both ways will have different consequences. But that's not because someone doesn't "deserve to be taller".
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Final height of males is reached until 18 in most of the cases, spine is the last part that stops growing.
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then go with expert doctor, not ones in your height. trust me you will destroy your marriage and everything if something wrong happen.
That's right man. Things can go wrong and then you loose the best years of your life
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New study shows that increasing Tibia/Femur ratio beyond 0.8 is correlated with long-term arthritis.
Copy paste from link https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436):
The Association of Tibia Femur Ratio and Degenerative Disease of the Spine, Hips, and Knees.
Weinberg DS1, Liu RW.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
When individuals with asymmetric lower extremities present for evaluation of limb-length inequality, correction can occur at the tibia, femur, or in both bones; however, there are limited data available to justify either technique. The aim of this study is to examine the normal ratio of tibia length/femur length (T/F), and to explore the relationship between T/F ratio and osteoarthritis of the spine, hips, and knees.
METHODS:
Bone lengths of 1152 cadaveric femora and tibiae from the Hamann-Todd osteological collection were measured. Degenerative joint disease was graded in the hip, knee, and spine. Correlations between the ratio of T/F and osteoarthritis were evaluated with multiple regression analysis.
RESULTS:
The average ratio of T/F was 0.80±0.03. There was a strong correlation between age and arthritis at all sites, with standardized β ranging from 0.44 to 0.57 (P<0.0005 for all). There was a significant correlation between increasing T/F and hip arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.006), and knee arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.008).
DISCUSSION:
Increasing tibia length relative to femur length was found to be a significant predictor of ipsilateral hip and knee arthritis. Therefore, we recommend that when performing limb lengthening, surgical planning should lean toward recreating the normal ratio of 0.80. In circumstances where one bone is to be overlengthened relative to the other, bias should be toward overlengthening the femur. This same principle can be applied to limb-reduction surgery, where in certain circumstances, one may choose to preferentially shorten the tibia.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
This is the first study to report long-term consequences of lower extremity segment disproportion.
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What could go wrong so badly at a reputable doctor, they dont want to kill you and an official death has bever been reported. Surely if something goes wrong they can somehow find a way around it, no?
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What could go wrong so badly at a reputable doctor, they dont want to kill you and an official death has bever been reported. Surely if something goes wrong they can somehow find a way around it, no?
Putting aside the risk of thromboembolism and fat embolism which can kill you, and all the risks of the surgery itself that can happen but its frequency is reduced when going to a top doctor? Sure, your bone healing might be slow and you might end up with an exponentially longer recovery time that you considered making you lose your job and going into bankruptcy.
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What could go wrong so badly at a reputable doctor, they dont want to kill you and an official death has bever been reported. Surely if something goes wrong they can somehow find a way around it, no?
Reputable is not the same that capable. The worst thing that can happen is amputation, death is ridiculous now. Most of the times yes they can find a way, just go to a good doc, we have diaries here, not to hungry moneymakers.
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What could go wrong so badly at a reputable doctor, they dont want to kill you and an official death has bever been reported. Surely if something goes wrong they can somehow find a way around it, no?
There have been a *number* of patients who have had to get corrective surgery during/after lengthening. Often more than once. All this costs tens of thousands more. Unless you're a multi-millionaire, this can destroy your life financially. This will severely limit your choices in life-- anything from getting a loan, to taking a spur of the moment trip with friends will be compromised. Not to mention the toll on your body from multiple surgeries. And the income you lose during this period.
So you probably won't die but it can still pretty much destroy your life.
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There are many anonymous patients (some of them without an account in this forum) who had indeed their lives destroyed by LL. Respect to all those people who lost their time, health, money, and love from their dearest ones after the surgery and its many complications.
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Looking at the change of the man's picture in the following site, it seems 5 cm lengthening of tibia is even too much.
Is it because he seems to have lost too much muscle?
anyway looking at this I probably will be happy with 3 cm lengthening of tibia considering too much risks of this surgeries.
However people may think I7m too crazy for doing only 3 cm. But, since I'm an asian my tibia is a little too short aesthetic wise.
https://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201709/14/65/d0092965_03402268.jpg
http://shirabeau.exblog.jp/25605778/
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Looking at the change of the man's picture in the following site, it seems 5 cm lengthening of tibia is even too much.
Is it because he seems to have lost too much muscle?
That is precisely why. He lost a good amount of muscle and fat, which can make people look sickly. It's not a good look, but alas it's temporary.
It's better to look for patients a year or two after consolidation.
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Looking at the change of the man's picture in the following site, it seems 5 cm lengthening of tibia is even too much.
Is it because he seems to have lost too much muscle?
anyway looking at this I probably will be happy with 3 cm lengthening of tibia considering too much risks of this surgeries.
However people may think I7m too crazy for doing only 3 cm. But, since I'm an asian my tibia is a little too short aesthetic wise.
https://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201709/14/65/d0092965_03402268.jpg
http://shirabeau.exblog.jp/25605778/
I don't know whether the picture is deceptive or not. But even though he has done 5 cm, his tibia looks so long.
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That is precisely why. He lost a good amount of muscle and fat, which can make people look sickly. It's not a good look, but alas it's temporary.
It's better to look for patients a year or two after consolidation.
Yep.
And the longer tibias look better to me. He just needs to recover from LL.
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I totally agree with you, I had it done when I was only twelve because i was born with a leg longer than the other one and its been hell to me this past 18 years living in pain not being bale to function 100 percent its the worst especially as a female, like wearing heels on a special occasion is a challenge. I wish my dad had never allowed that surgery :(
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I’m female and plan to do cross lateral, 4 or 3 cm on femur and 3 cm on tibia. Is this relatively low risk because not lengthening large amounts??
Would be one femur and one opposite tibia then after the other 2 cross sections.
I’m about to give up my job, my apartment, leave all my stuff in boxes to go and do this and change my life. I’m so scared but feel I have to do it.
Good for you that you've made your decision to take this step. Where are you doing it? How tall are you currently ?
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I totally agree with you, I had it done when I was only twelve because i was born with a leg longer than the other one and its been hell to me this past 18 years living in pain not being bale to function 100 percent its the worst especially as a female, like wearing heels on a special occasion is a challenge. I wish my dad had never allowed that surgery :(
I wish we had asked her more questions when she'd still be reading the forums.
Wwoman26 is the classic example of justified LL: correcting a limb length discrepancy in a child whose growth plates are still not closed. Even despite that, she thinks she'd rather have lived with the discrepancy.
Of course, she may have had a completely different opinion and went for LL herself (as an adult) had her parents not decided on this for her when she was a child, but this we'll never know.
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I got a private message about this and wanted to share it with the rest of the forum.
Here's the Universal Pain Assessment Tool:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25724858/UNIVERSAL-PAIN-ASSESSMENT-TOOL
When walking it's 0.5 to 1. I notice it but can ignore it and just keep walking, for hours if necessary. After using the knees a lot I barely notice it at all. If my knees were metal, I'd say they get rusty easily and that using them lubricates them.
When kneeling it's 1 to 3. I always notice it, and sometimes I can ignore it. But other times it interferes with tasks. The worst situation would be walking on my knees on a hard surface. I'd definitely feel it and it would interfere with how I walked. Working out doesn't help this at all. I guess I'd better behave myself since apologizing on my knees would hurt. :P
Not trying to sound smart but I'm going to assume that kneeling down on concrete would hurt anyone and not just former LL patients.
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I did LL 14 yrs ago, read my diary
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Hello Friend
I would like to know how it is now, the pains are better, are you training enough?
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I can update my pain level as well. I almost feel no pain at all in my knees anymore and I run, jump, do martial arts and all there is to it today and I feel barely anything.
I got used to the pain so nowadays I’m surprised I don’t feel it anymore.
There is still a little bit of stiffness in the mornings but it’s nothing really. I mean, who isn’t stiff in the morning? :)
I was just out for a long run and there is no sensitivity or any pain in the knees.
I’ve been actively trying to fix my Xlegs with many exercises and have special made insoles I use when I walk.
Maybe it has helped, don’t know - but life without pain is better!! :)
And no, I won’t remove my rods in my legs. I will die with them in there.
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Hello Friend Sweden
How nice that you can jump and run.
congratulations for the dedication, no doubt you had evolution and few pains today because you were very dedicated in training.
how interesting I did not know there was surgery that did not remove the internal rods.
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And no, I won’t remove my rods in my legs. I will die with them in there.
Interesting.
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how come? what's the point of leaving them in?
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I can update my pain level as well. I almost feel no pain at all in my knees anymore and I run, jump, do martial arts and all there is to it today and I feel barely anything.
I got used to the pain so nowadays I’m surprised I don’t feel it anymore.
There is still a little bit of stiffness in the mornings but it’s nothing really. I mean, who isn’t stiff in the morning? :)
I was just out for a long run and there is no sensitivity or any pain in the knees.
I’ve been actively trying to fix my Xlegs with many exercises and have special made insoles I use when I walk.
Maybe it has helped, don’t know - but life without pain is better!! :)
And no, I won’t remove my rods in my legs. I will die with them in there.
you will have more athletic hability with them out, i feel that way after removal.
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In some ways i wish i was american..short guys are able to be successful in america..but canada is a very judgemental place. The wrong look will lead you to a life full of misery.
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never be scared of LL, it change my life and I thankful every day that it. More importantly, we have a though process of yin and yang. Meaning something negative has to come from everything positive - like some weird cosmic balance. This is not the case with Leg Lengthening.
Think of it like being overweight, then losing weight. Where is the yin and yang? You will enjoy your life more comfortable and healthy. The same is true with LL, just follow the procedure daily, eat correctly, take your medication as directed and work through it during the lengthening the process. Being short isn't the end of the world and if you can handle that you can handle everything.
No one ever knew how much height effected me, I was happy, had great friends and interesting relationship. I ignored and work thru clothes not fitting correctly because I had kids legs and man size waist. I prefer were shorts because pants always look weird on me and made me feel uncomfortable. I wore lift shoes from time to time so I could be a little taller at bars or meeting new people.
But I made it through, when an opportunity came up and I had the money I completed the surgery in 2009. It was amazing, it truly was a life changing event for me. I was happy to go out drive around, show myself off. I couldn't buy enough clothes because everything looked good. Girls actually, gave me a lot of attention - my strength was gone but in its place was height. I worked out went to physio and regain the ability to walk without showing issues. What a difference it made in my life.
I looked at my Porsche and thought?!?! I am no longer a short person driving an awesome car. Here's the thing, I remember what it was like to be short and when I see short people I don't say anything but I always try to stand a little shorter get a little nicer because I remember being short myself and it suck for me. I am thankful I was able to get taller and that the Lord allowed me to do such an amazing thing.
Please make sure you mind is in right gear before you do it. These chat rooms are full of people that need emotional support not to get taller. Getting taller didn't change me. It allow me to express how I always felt about my self, larger then I was. Hope this helps with idea - going through this procedure is complicated and expensive I used the best doctor in the world. He invented the system, device and technique and it was still challenging. THIS is a hard procedure full of risk and pain. And while you are doing it, it feels like it will hurt forever then one day after 6 months you walk up like nothing happened, no pain, no aching and then you stand up and wow - -you are really tall!!!!
Jamee
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I need some opinions.
I'm in a situation where I NEED LL, my femur to femur is about 6 CM off, my tibia to tibia is about 3 cm off. I have constant knee pain on my right side, lots of cracking if I get down too much.
I can either do it local and it's free, but would only fix the 6 CM and 3 CM.
Or
go elsewhere, do tibia up to 6 cm, and pay, fix my discrepancy at the same time, then come back to my country and do femur local and removed the rod from the tibia.
Don't know which is best, I stand at 172 cm. Also trying to figure how much height gain would I get from option A.
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never be scared of LL, it change my life and I thankful every day that it. More importantly, we have a though process of yin and yang. Meaning something negative has to come from everything positive - like some weird cosmic balance. This is not the case with Leg Lengthening.
Think of it like being overweight, then losing weight. Where is the yin and yang? You will enjoy your life more comfortable and healthy. The same is true with LL, just follow the procedure daily, eat correctly, take your medication as directed and work through it during the lengthening the process. Being short isn't the end of the world and if you can handle that you can handle everything.
No one ever knew how much height effected me, I was happy, had great friends and interesting relationship. I ignored and work thru clothes not fitting correctly because I had kids legs and man size waist. I prefer were shorts because pants always look weird on me and made me feel uncomfortable. I wore lift shoes from time to time so I could be a little taller at bars or meeting new people.
But I made it through, when an opportunity came up and I had the money I completed the surgery in 2009. It was amazing, it truly was a life changing event for me. I was happy to go out drive around, show myself off. I couldn't buy enough clothes because everything looked good. Girls actually, gave me a lot of attention - my strength was gone but in its place was height. I worked out went to physio and regain the ability to walk without showing issues. What a difference it made in my life.
I looked at my Porsche and thought?!?! I am no longer a short person driving an awesome car. Here's the thing, I remember what it was like to be short and when I see short people I don't say anything but I always try to stand a little shorter get a little nicer because I remember being short myself and it suck for me. I am thankful I was able to get taller and that the Lord allowed me to do such an amazing thing.
Please make sure you mind is in right gear before you do it. These chat rooms are full of people that need emotional support not to get taller. Getting taller didn't change me. It allow me to express how I always felt about my self, larger then I was. Hope this helps with idea - going through this procedure is complicated and expensive I used the best doctor in the world. He invented the system, device and technique and it was still challenging. THIS is a hard procedure full of risk and pain. And while you are doing it, it feels like it will hurt forever then one day after 6 months you walk up like nothing happened, no pain, no aching and then you stand up and wow - -you are really tall!!!!
Jamee
yo dope comment! inspiring man! thanks by the way
what doctor was it?
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never be scared of LL, it change my life and I thankful every day that it. More importantly, we have a though process of yin and yang. Meaning something negative has to come from everything positive - like some weird cosmic balance. This is not the case with Leg Lengthening.
Think of it like being overweight, then losing weight. Where is the yin and yang? You will enjoy your life more comfortable and healthy. The same is true with LL, just follow the procedure daily, eat correctly, take your medication as directed and work through it during the lengthening the process. Being short isn't the end of the world and if you can handle that you can handle everything.
What doctor? And I have a Porsche too lol and that’s exactly how I feel, planning to do this in 2020
No one ever knew how much height effected me, I was happy, had great friends and interesting relationship. I ignored and work thru clothes not fitting correctly because I had kids legs and man size waist. I prefer were shorts because pants always look weird on me and made me feel uncomfortable. I wore lift shoes from time to time so I could be a little taller at bars or meeting new people.
But I made it through, when an opportunity came up and I had the money I completed the surgery in 2009. It was amazing, it truly was a life changing event for me. I was happy to go out drive around, show myself off. I couldn't buy enough clothes because everything looked good. Girls actually, gave me a lot of attention - my strength was gone but in its place was height. I worked out went to physio and regain the ability to walk without showing issues. What a difference it made in my life.
I looked at my Porsche and thought?!?! I am no longer a short person driving an awesome car. Here's the thing, I remember what it was like to be short and when I see short people I don't say anything but I always try to stand a little shorter get a little nicer because I remember being short myself and it suck for me. I am thankful I was able to get taller and that the Lord allowed me to do such an amazing thing.
Please make sure you mind is in right gear before you do it. These chat rooms are full of people that need emotional support not to get taller. Getting taller didn't change me. It allow me to express how I always felt about my self, larger then I was. Hope this helps with idea - going through this procedure is complicated and expensive I used the best doctor in the world. He invented the system, device and technique and it was still challenging. THIS is a hard procedure full of risk and pain. And while you are doing it, it feels like it will hurt forever then one day after 6 months you walk up like nothing happened, no pain, no aching and then you stand up and wow - -you are really tall!!!!
Jamee
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Man there are so few reputable people on here, that sucks.
After going thru the old and new forum. People here STILL talking about going over safe limits. Questions doctors and facts lol. Wtf.
The safe limit is about 5-6cm in Tibias. Period.
There’s a crapload of evidence on this. Not only does your athletic ability retain close to 90% or more. But there’s less soft tissue complications and less complications as a whole.
There have been proven doctors on the forum say this. There’s medical sites that prove this. And yet people. Hype each other up for 7cm or more on each segment. That’s insane.
If it isn’t worth it for 5-6cm then save up and do both segments at 5-6cm.
It’s stupid and Unsafe to do limits they tell you not to cross. Wtf.
I can’t even get a realistic option or experience becuase people are saying they are good.
And then say “except for a weak this or painful that” or “can’t run anymore but who cares becuase I was never into sports” . Who cares if you weren’t lol the point was you can run before and now you can’t.
I wish when people post dumb comments like going over the 15% max recommended by doctors, they put sources instead of just giving false hope that’ll lead to a scholarship at wheelchair university. Smh
We can get this done get taller/longer and minimize risks if we stay within expectations of yourself and a qualified doctor. If majority doctors say 6 is the max. Maybe go right under the max. No one will be 100% but you can get close if you stay within the 10-15% of original limb and don’t go pass 4-6cm per segment. Stay healthy and realistic everyone.
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but 7cms arent 7cms..
If a guy with 1,8 lengthen 7cms he wont have much problems as someone with 1,6m who lengthens the same amount
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Everyone is individual. There is of course obvious safe limits that no one should pass but everyone will be different, some have reported the need to stop at 5cm but there are those who got to 7cm with decent recovery.
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So who qualifies as a good candidate to do 7.5 cm to 8 cm? i always hear 8 cm is the max you should do for internal femurs is that right?
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Is it true that the lengthening process works better with a person who already has a large size (180cm+)? This is what I was able to read once while browsing this forum, I ask confirmation.
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Is it true that the lengthening process works better with a person who already has a large size (180cm+)? This is what I was able to read once while browsing this forum, I ask confirmation.
Yes. Extending less percentage of the original bone is safer. Ironically a 6'0 doing LL is safer than a 5'4 person doing LL.
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Thank you for your answer ghkid2019 !
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how much can i do when i cross lengthen, say femur first then tibia?
how much on femur to be safe and not get crippled and then how much on tibia?
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Depends on how flexible you are. There aren't any fixed limits.
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I agree that having low risk outweighs the large length and proportions. But let's be honest with ourselves. The type of ppl that are willing to do this surgery are ppl who are quite a bit shorter than average.
Is a 5 foot 5 guy willing to go through all the pain and potential side effects for 4 cm?, and become 5 foot 6.5. LMFAO. It's sad truth but ppl need to hear it.
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I agree that having low risk outweighs the large length and proportions. But let's be honest with ourselves. The type of ppl that are willing to do this surgery are ppl who are quite a bit shorter than average.
Is a 5 foot 5 guy willing to go through all the pain and potential side effects for 4 cm?, and become 5 foot 6.5. LMFAO. It's sad truth but ppl need to hear it.
There are guys entire standard deviations lower than that doing quad lengthening (tib + femur) as we speak at Paley clinic.
My point is, I think a lot of the risks are now to the point of being MOSTLY manageable in the care of a top, top surgeon.
If you go to the third world for surgery, you can't expect much. Can you?
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I can update my pain level as well. I almost feel no pain at all in my knees anymore and I run, jump, do martial arts and all there is to it today and I feel barely anything.
I got used to the pain so nowadays I’m surprised I don’t feel it anymore.
There is still a little bit of stiffness in the mornings but it’s nothing really. I mean, who isn’t stiff in the morning? :)
I was just out for a long run and there is no sensitivity or any pain in the knees.
I’ve been actively trying to fix my Xlegs with many exercises and have special made insoles I use when I walk.
Maybe it has helped, don’t know - but life without pain is better!! :)
And no, I won’t remove my rods in my legs. I will die with them in there.
Any update since then? And how can you fix xlegs without corrective surgery? I didn't think that was possible with just stretching.
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you will have more athletic hability with them out, i feel that way after removal.
Can you give more details on what you mean by "athletic ability"? That is a bit vague.
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I agree that having low risk outweighs the large length and proportions. But let's be honest with ourselves. The type of ppl that are willing to do this surgery are ppl who are quite a bit shorter than average.
Is a 5 foot 5 guy willing to go through all the pain and potential side effects for 4 cm?, and become 5 foot 6.5. LMFAO. It's sad truth but ppl need to hear it.
i didnt say do 4cm lol.. but as you can read above ... someone literally saying "some people did over the amount and had decent recovery". <--- that sounds terrible. and thats not height neurosis anymore if you can say youre willing to butcher yourself when you can still get almost 3in safe on femurs and 2 in on tibia relatively safe.
but the point i was making is - most people commenting like that have no money saved, no real research, just joined recent, just spitting out the longest numbers they THINK they can do, and tell people on their mock ups they look great lol. so it makes it hard to gain info and go over resources in a good way.
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8 cm tibias ftw
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Just wanted to update everyone on this. My knees have been progressively getting better since I started this thread. I don't feel any pain at all when I walk now, and the sensitivity upon kneeling is maybe a 1 on this scale now.
I'm not as anti-internal nail as I once was in light of these developments.
Oh wow it's almost six years ago now but I'm so happy to hear it. I always actually wondered why you were so concerned with kneeling down anyway and the pain it was causing. I can't think of how rarely I kneel in my day to day life. But certainly if it always hurt when you walked that would certainly be a bother for anyone. Glad to hear it settled down. Congrats.
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Oh wow it's almost six years ago now but I'm so happy to hear it. I always actually wondered why you were so concerned with kneeling down anyway and the pain it was causing. I can't think of how rarely I kneel in my day to day life. But certainly if it always hurt when you walked that would certainly be a bother for anyone. Glad to hear it settled down. Congrats.
Always be concerned about pain. It's a sign that something is wrong with your body. I'm worried that this low-grade inflammation in my patellar ligaments that gets worse or better in cycles will eventually cause difficulty walking or even standing. :(
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I'm wanted the LL surgery by this year but now I'm doubting with the "not full 100% recovery" since I dance and Run Half Marathons 1 time at year as a hobbie.
I was aiming for PRECICE method in Femur 2, from 1.60cm to 1.65cm = 5cm of lengthening
Female - 28 years old
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sara did you do the surgery? which doctor? results ?
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I think that up to 3 inches is fine. But I keep telling people who get LL to do Physical therapy, physical therapy, PHYSICAL THERAPY. If you want to be 99% of what you were you are going to have to push yourself to your limits and do pt well above what your doctor says and for a long period of time. Its hard, but you don't want to be crippled
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never be scared of LL, it change my life and I thankful every day that it. More importantly, we have a though process of yin and yang. Meaning something negative has to come from everything positive - like some weird cosmic balance. This is not the case with Leg Lengthening.
Think of it like being overweight, then losing weight. Where is the yin and yang? You will enjoy your life more comfortable and healthy. The same is true with LL, just follow the procedure daily, eat correctly, take your medication as directed and work through it during the lengthening the process. Being short isn't the end of the world and if you can handle that you can handle everything.
No one ever knew how much height effected me, I was happy, had great friends and interesting relationship. I ignored and work thru clothes not fitting correctly because I had kids legs and man size waist. I prefer were shorts because pants always look weird on me and made me feel uncomfortable. I wore lift shoes from time to time so I could be a little taller at bars or meeting new people.
But I made it through, when an opportunity came up and I had the money I completed the surgery in 2009. It was amazing, it truly was a life changing event for me. I was happy to go out drive around, show myself off. I couldn't buy enough clothes because everything looked good. Girls actually, gave me a lot of attention - my strength was gone but in its place was height. I worked out went to physio and regain the ability to walk without showing issues. What a difference it made in my life.
I looked at my Porsche and thought?!?! I am no longer a short person driving an awesome car. Here's the thing, I remember what it was like to be short and when I see short people I don't say anything but I always try to stand a little shorter get a little nicer because I remember being short myself and it suck for me. I am thankful I was able to get taller and that the Lord allowed me to do such an amazing thing.
Please make sure you mind is in right gear before you do it. These chat rooms are full of people that need emotional support not to get taller. Getting taller didn't change me. It allow me to express how I always felt about my self, larger then I was. Hope this helps with idea - going through this procedure is complicated and expensive I used the best doctor in the world. He invented the system, device and technique and it was still challenging. THIS is a hard procedure full of risk and pain. And while you are doing it, it feels like it will hurt forever then one day after 6 months you walk up like nothing happened, no pain, no aching and then you stand up and wow - -you are really tall!!!!
Jamee
Amazing comment. GOATed.
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I think that up to 3 inches is fine. But I keep telling people who get LL to do Physical therapy, physical therapy, PHYSICAL THERAPY. If you want to be 99% of what you were you are going to have to push yourself to your limits and do pt well above what your doctor says and for a long period of time. Its hard, but you don't want to be crippled
Who have you kept telling with your five posts?
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To the OP Aand supporters alike. Unless you have gone through the surgery yourself or you’re a doctor that has performed multiple surgeries.
You have ZERO credibility and all your claims are simple nothing but copy paste.
How you feel about something doesn’t matter to a process because statistics in itself is not even accurate as it is selective.
I understand you may intend good but your approach isn’t the best way to go about it
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It's now been 3 years since I did my first operation(frames on, nail in legs).
Today I have X-legs which affects my walking and running to the point my back hurts insanely in some evenings. I even broke my foot bc of it(lower part of tibia around the foot). It has healed very bad and actually hurts every single day if I don't do drugs like an addict.
My muscles are like 45% of what they used to be on my thighs. My calfs have totally exploded in hyper trophy to the point where it's difficult to pull over most jeans around them and then they're loose around the thighs.
There is a constant stretch in my calfs and ankles when I stand up straight and standing up for a long time hurts my back.
I'm slow in my body as an old man(I'm 30+).
Running is ALWAYS very difficult and it's not something I just do even if I need to(like catch the train or stuff like that)
I can jump up to 40-50% of what I used to be able to.
Jumping from one leg is close to impossible.
Sometimes my calfs get cramps and I need to point with my feet(like standing on toes).
My knees ache a little every morning and when I stand up from sitting down.
I can barely sit down on the ground anymore in any position bc then I fall back. My back muscles are too short.
If I sit more than 30 seconds on my knees I can almost not get up by myself. And some days it's impossible to sit on my knees.
My shins are just too long. It doesn't look natural - especially when I sit on my knees. Heels almost stick out from my butt then.
When I do the splits, which I still can on a good day, I can't grab on to my feet bc my legs are too long for my arms. It's BEYOND unnatural. Every gymnast can grab their feet - but me. And it's bc I can't reach them anymore. It looks W E I R D !!!
Standing up I can't reach my feet. It's also unnatural. Sure, some days I can, but not easy - like before.
My stamina is like a 60-year old.
Doing properly squats is very dangerous for my back bc my total biomechanics are changed and altered. I have to do it in the machines. But I'm still strong in my legs compared to most people.
If anything touches the lower screws in my tibias I want to die bc of the pain it gives for one second.
Don't do more than 5cm on tibias god damn it!!!!!!
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My doctor measured me last week. I was 179,5cm tall. It felt good. I asked for the checkup I did with him back in 2011 and checked my height. It said 173cm tall.
He didn't notice by the way......
The fact that I'm now around average is actually very satisfactory for me. I went to India, sure, but I got the height. No question about it.
The one thing that bothers me the most is my broken foot. Everything else is tolerable and right before I broke my foot I ran 10km in 55 minutes.
I haven't started working yet. I'm still in school and will do so until June 2017. Hopefully after that I will get a very good office job where I can relax my destroyed body, my new destroyed TALL body.
YOU WENT TO INDIA.
Also your current physical stature matters a lot. All those things you mentioned are not explicit related to LL. Someone who is out of shape can experience all those things you’re experiencing.
I would NOT RECOMMEND INDIA TO ANYONE . Not even my f**ckin enemy.
Also the method you did matters as well so if you did the Lizarov method then your points are all subjective to you and your experience.
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Also y’all speaking like y’all some athletes or something. The majorly of y’all are possibly not even that physically fit or active so I’m not sure what your all worried about. For your everyday binge watching Netflix or driving to the fast food restaurant to order foods that a bad for you, you will be just fine.
Once I’m done with my procedure and documenting. I will return to this site a year or so after to give my thoughts and opinions.
Your age... physical activity level and predisposed genetics and errors all play a factor. It’s not just about lengthening.
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YOU WENT TO INDIA.
Also your current physical stature matters a lot. All those things you mentioned are not explicit related to LL. Someone who is out of shape can experience all those things you’re experiencing.
I would NOT RECOMMEND INDIA TO ANYONE . Not even my f**ckin enemy.
Also the method you did matters as well so if you did the Lizarov method then your points are all subjective to you and your experience.
A rational candidate will never opt for Indian surgeons owing to awful hygienes,medicals,expertises,personnels and indigences.
Apart from cheap prices,I can't find any legit reason to go for India.And that's whyhe is suffering from bad consequences physically and mentally.
Also he described his post-surgery life as hopeful and promising although he is close to paralysis.
So we can analyze the pros and cons.Let's say his surgery is satisfactory in the long run.
If you can head for Paley or Betz,results won't be that embarassing and incommodious.
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A rational candidate will never opt for Indian surgeons owing to awful hygienes,medicals,expertises,personnels and indigences.
Apart from cheap prices,I can't find any legit reason to go for India.And that's whyhe is suffering from bad consequences physically and mentally.
Also he described his post-surgery life as hopeful and promising although he is close to paralysis.
So we can analyze the pros and cons.Let's say his surgery is satisfactory in the long run.
If you can head for Paley or Betz,results won't be that embarassing and incommodious.
Actually very good surgeon in india, parihar. Besides that I wouldn’t consider anyone else personally, even parihar facility doesn’t look like American standards ive heard.
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Actually very good surgeon in india, parihar. Besides that I wouldn’t consider anyone else personally, even parihar facility doesn’t look like American standards ive heard.
In COVID-19 pandemic in addition to Parihar's only external methods,India is not a resort not only now but also originally for LL.
I'd rather do surgery in China instead of India or other southern-east countries.
I can't believe there is someone planning on LL under Indians,Viets or Laos' hands.That's beyond irrations.
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In COVID-19 pandemic in addition to Parihar's only external methods,India is not a resort not only now but also originally for LL.
I'd rather do surgery in China instead of India or other southern-east countries.
I can't believe there is someone planning on LL under Indians,Viets or Laos' hands.That's beyond irrations.
Apart from China, LL is also popular in Korea. Do you think it's safe to recommend people who wanna do LL to choose Korea for the surgery?
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Apart from China, LL is also popular in Korea. Do you think it's safe to recommend people who wanna do LL to choose Korea for the surgery?
True.Korean surgeons are more expertise than Chinese.But Dr.Lee's surgery price is very horrible,as high as European surgery prices.
And there is only one reputable surgeon in Korea,just Dr.Lee.Other surgeons are rarely mentioned in this forum so it's kinda gamble to choose other Korean surgeons and China possesses more reputable surgeons,such as Hetao Xia,Helong Bai,Xiangsheng Zhang,Yilian Han and so on.
But everyone having attempts to complain them for discrete surgeries is bastard cuz limb lengthening surgery will get more rigorously prohibited in China due to policities and there will be less amount of patients available to surgery.
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To respond to the starter of this blog, he is 100% correct. LL is very risky but as the second person said, who cares people want to be taller. Being short is one of the worst things you can have going on for you in life for many reasons and I say get the surgery if you can afford, be reasonable and make sure you get a good doc. Prepare for the worst because recovery can be lengthy. Realize that the surgery can go wrong but again reduce those odds by preparing.
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I did almost 10cm and if I could go back in time I would have stopped at around 5cm. The main reason for this is mobility. Today I can walk completely normal and even run, but that should be taken with a pinch of salt. When I say that i can run its more similar to when a 50 years old run, not a 25 years old.
The other problem is that my femurs are now waaaay to long compared to my upper body, so when I sit down I look like a freak.
If I become a millionaire one day I will actually shorten my femurs by about 4-5cm.
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Why not lengthen your tibias?
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Why not lengthen your tibias?
This
You should always lengthen both segments if you're concerned about athleticism imo, because that's the only way you'll preserve your pre-op biomechanics.
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take a look at the poll for itsmylifes diary.
the statistic never seems to change.
40% believe in 5-6cm
20% believe in 6-7cm
20% believe in 7-8cm
20% believe in 8-9cm
this is the very reason why so many people get fked up. the second reason is because we all know soft tissue cant go past 0.66mm per day and NO MUTHERfkER STICKS TO IT.
instead they (ultimately do an average of 0.66mm perday) but destroy their body 1 day at a time by over lengthening on a daily basis, they think they are fine during this process because they mask the symptoms of the damage with massive levels of pain killers. ultimately they are fking their body up.
I can tell you with certainty the body can not lengthen past this level unless you use medication to lie to yourself about how fast you can lengthen. when you do something bad the body produces pain to tell you to fking stop. my doctor will not give me any pain killers and I tell you now going above 0.66 is impossible. because your body screams to stop this madness. the same for going above 5cm in total length.
I have never seen a diary where someone did 5cm or less and had permanent damage. with a good doctor. and lengthened 0.66mm per day every single day.
the problem is that people need to be informed about how serious this surgery is. but NOOOOOO every stupid mutherfker comes here wanting to lengthen 20cm, and then ultimately decides on less but still decide to do too much. the problem is greed. people are greedy they want to complete the surgery as fast as possible and want to lengthen the maximum as possible.
greed needs to end.
6cm tibia is the MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
external femur 5cm MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
internal femur...... I cant answer. but every stupid nobody who does answer will answer this question with greed in their mind wanting it to be as high as possible. and that again is the problem. your body has limits.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-of-the-Ilizarov-frame-for-tibial-lengthening-with-an-automated-control_fig1_264833669
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A rational candidate will never opt for Indian surgeons owing to awful hygienes,medicals,expertises,personnels and indigences.
Apart from cheap prices,I can't find any legit reason to go for India.And that's whyhe is suffering from bad consequences physically and mentally.
Also he described his post-surgery life as hopeful and promising although he is close to paralysis.
So we can analyze the pros and cons.Let's say his surgery is satisfactory in the long run.
If you can head for Paley or Betz,results won't be that embarassing and incommodious.
"A rational candidate will never opt for Indian surgeons owing to awful hygienes,medicals,expertises,personnels and indigences."
the surgical skills I've personally witnessed within the operative theater from an "indian" surgeon would strongly imply that the reverse is true at expertise. perhaps it's not fair to make this global claim about all "indian" surgeons...
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I got a private message about this and wanted to share it with the rest of the forum.
Here's the Universal Pain Assessment Tool:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25724858/UNIVERSAL-PAIN-ASSESSMENT-TOOL
When walking it's 0.5 to 1. I notice it but can ignore it and just keep walking, for hours if necessary. After using the knees a lot I barely notice it at all. If my knees were metal, I'd say they get rusty easily and that using them lubricates them.
When kneeling it's 1 to 3. I always notice it, and sometimes I can ignore it. But other times it interferes with tasks. The worst situation would be walking on my knees on a hard surface. I'd definitely feel it and it would interfere with how I walked. Working out doesn't help this at all. I guess I'd better behave myself since apologizing on my knees would hurt. :P
Sorry for my ignorance but the workout you refer that kind of ''lubricated'' your knees (you still do it?) can be for example a gym/home (or true) bike? I ask this because I may not have much time to workout and a home bike would be perfect. And some surgeons even suggest mainly a bike as physiotherapy.
By the way, do you feel specially afraid of using a normal bike, maybe due to danger of special harm if you would fall?
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How common is permanent knee pain when using Precice? What kind of permanent pain can a precice get?
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Do calfs get bigger when u do femurs LL? I have read this and i get why it happens, but iirc it happens when tibias only right? or do this happens when u do femurs too? I ask this bc i have already big calfs (im not fat, its genetics) and wouldnt like to get bigger calfs lol
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Do calfs get bigger when u do femurs LL? I have read this and i get why it happens, but iirc it happens when tibias only right? or do this happens when u do femurs too? I ask this bc i have already big calfs (im not fat, its genetics) and wouldnt like to get bigger calfs lol
Dr. Lee said calves get bigger during tibia lengthening, but the same doesn't happen with femurs. I'd personally be fine getting bigger calves, most people who lift weights lack them and can't grow them very well haha
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I was talking about tibias nailing
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Sorry for my ignorance but the workout you refer that kind of ''lubricated'' your knees (you still do it?) can be for example a gym/home (or true) bike? I ask this because I may not have much time to workout and a home bike would be perfect. And some surgeons even suggest mainly a bike as physiotherapy.
By the way, do you feel specially afraid of using a normal bike, maybe due to danger of special harm if you would fall?
Most aerobic workouts will do it. I think I was doing Power 90 back when I wrote that.
I rode a bike every day for two years, twice even down a hill at high speed, so I'm definitely not afraid.
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How common is permanent knee pain when using Precice? What kind of permanent pain can a precice get?
I believe it comes from splitting the patellar ligament rather than the type of nail.
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Most aerobic workouts will do it. I think I was doing Power 90 back when I wrote that.
I rode a bike every day for two years, twice even down a hill at high speed, so I'm definitely not afraid.
Thanks, I'm happy you don't have any feelings to be afraid of biking.
For aerobics do you think it's enough or ok running, stationary bike, eliptical or stationary rowing? You have a preference?
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Variety is my preference, and everyone else who knows about fitness.
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Variety is my preference, and everyone else who knows about fitness.
I don't know much about fitness, only that as they told me in the gym I should "target" a certain pulse according to age and calculated maximum pulse to assure I was in the "cardio" zone.
I did that by running but was wondering what kind of alternatives there were, for example bike, I think. Running became hard during some time precisely due to knee pain during months because of infectious arthritis in the past.
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Dr. Lee said calves get bigger during tibia lengthening, but the same doesn't happen with femurs. I'd personally be fine getting bigger calves, most people who lift weights lack them and can't grow them very well haha
Ikr? That's such a weird concern people have. Imagine being concerned that your muscles might grow bigger lmao
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Girls don't want it.
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Idk why a girl would want to be taller. Short girls generally have the largest dating pool, everyone loves em lol
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They want to be taken more seriously.
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Cause being taller is more aesthetically pleasing and elegant.
Answering for myself, mostly that reason, but also because I really don't like being smaller than most men. It makes me feel weak and vulnerable which I despise.
But yeah there's quite a lot of reasons to why women would want to get LL.
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Cause being taller is more aesthetically pleasing and elegant.
Answering for myself, mostly that reason, but also because I really don't like being smaller than most men. It makes me feel weak and vulnerable which I despise.
But yeah there's quite a lot of reasons to why women would want to get LL.
I still don't get it why some folks here are perplexed about why women also want to do LL, just like women are curious why some men are contemplating on doing plastic surgeries. To be frank don't restrict what you should do with the society's view of values. If you want to increase one of your attributes just do it don't take whoever persuades you out of doing it just bc society is not demanding it srsly.
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I still don't get it why some folks here are perplexed about why women also want to do LL, just like women are curious why some men are contemplating on doing plastic surgeries. To be frank don't restrict what you should do with the society's view of values. If you want to increase one of your attributes just do it don't take whoever persuades you out of doing it just bc society is not demanding it srsly.
That's absolutely true :)
However society isn't really what's holding me back lmao
Being in Med school, time and my wallet are
I don't really know how it'd be possible for me to give up half a year at best when I'm already in for like 10 years, and I don't know if spending 80k is that worth when I'd rather spend it on a house or sth
So rn it's kinda just something I'm contrmplating.
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I still don't get it why some folks here are perplexed about why women also want to do LL
It's because they won't benefit from it. It's not like a guy getting a nose job; a handsome man is thought of more highly than an ugly one. It would be like a guy spending 100K, months of downtime, and risking his life to remove his body hair; totally perplexing.
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It's because they won't benefit from it. It's not like a guy getting a nose job; a handsome man is thought of more highly than an ugly one. It would be like a guy spending 100K, months of downtime, and risking his life to remove his body hair; totally perplexing.
I understand that maybe women wouldn't benefit as much in the dating realm as a man would, but there are many women who feel infantilized by their height and it can have major effects on their self-esteem. I totally understand why a 4"11 woman could feel distressed about her height, given that she is towered over by almost every adult of both genders and even many children and teenagers. Nobody male or female needs to do LL, but I don't think it's shocking that a very short woman would want to be taller. In fact, I think it's a lot less perplexing than some of the 5"11 guys on this forum who are desperate for LL. Not disparaging them either, just my opinion.
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Agree, LL at 5,9 or above is nonsense for a man.
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It's because they won't benefit from it. It's not like a guy getting a nose job; a handsome man is thought of more highly than an ugly one. It would be like a guy spending 100K, months of downtime, and risking his life to remove his body hair; totally perplexing.
Hum people don't only do things to do better on the dating scene ? It's not all about dating, men who have their hair removed do so because it helps them be more comfortable in their own skin not for dating reasons smh
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Agree, LL at 5,9 or above is nonsense for a man.
In China for some reasons a lot of 13-14 y.o adolescents are complaining about being 2 short bc they are only 5'10-6'1
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Hum people don't only do things to do better on the dating scene ? It's not all about dating, men who have their hair removed do so because it helps them be more comfortable in their own skin not for dating reasons smh
I agree. I am also fixated on plastic surgeries, which are perceived as a sissy's behaviours in my country. Boys and girls are always persuading you out of doing plastic surgeries with old excuses like your wallet is more important than your face, your personality/talent/intelligence is more important, you should hit the gym instead of hitting the cosmetic surgery hospitals, but the truth is usually that girls fall in love with guys with more handsome faces, and taller heights. So I never bought those bs like it's more important for men to become more rich to attract girls, though it can indeed increase the quality of lives, but in dating realm face and height are prioritized.
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In China for some reasons a lot of 13-14 y.o adolescents are complaining about being 2 short bc they are only 5'10-6'1
Only the trolls, because they know they can cause you mental distress when they do it.
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Can I do LL Surgery if I have bowed legs? If yes, then will the total increase in height be affected due to my condition?
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I agree. I am also fixated on plastic surgeries, which are perceived as a sissy's behaviours in my country. Boys and girls are always persuading you out of doing plastic surgeries with old excuses like your wallet is more important than your face, your personality/talent/intelligence is more important, you should hit the gym instead of hitting the cosmetic surgery hospitals, but the truth is usually that girls fall in love with guys with more handsome faces, and taller heights. So I never bought those bs like it's more important for men to become more rich to attract girls, though it can indeed increase the quality of lives, but in dating realm face and height are prioritized.
Well I mean it's not all that comparable though. Like if you wanna get a nosejob or whatever go ahead it's really no big deal. Now limb lengthening on the other hand is a really big deal whether that's money wise or body wise so unless you absolutely need it I wouldn't get it (I myself am very unlikely to get it done cause I value my athleticism and I wanna be rich lol)
Plus there's quite a public for smaller men, I know I like them, I have a lot of tall girl friends who do too
So yeah if you're gonna get LL do it for you, not for dating
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there is no magic bullet to make your body heal faster
the magic bullet is (actually) AAS. But only consider this if they’re legal OTC at your country of residence.