Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Information About Limb Lengthening => Topic started by: Muse on March 04, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
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These are the recommended lengthening amount by Limb Lengthening Doctors worldwide, from their response in the Doctor's Directory. Note that they are recommending based on their own specialized LL techniques.
Dr Leonid N.Solomin:
- On average, 3-6 cm for femur and lower leg: depends on the initial extremity length: the longer the initial length, the greater the elongation possible.
Dr. Barinov:
- Surgeons worldwide recommend to grow 5-7 cm, which is considered physiological. On an average patients grow 0.75 - 1 mm a day. growing 8-9 cm requires up to 9-10 months of treatment. I must say that the process of growing is very individual, some patients stop at 3-4 cm, others grow 9 cm and it's impossible to predict how the body will react to growing.
Dr Janet Conway :
- The total recommended lengthening is 2 inches (5 cm) in the thigh bone (femur). Lengthening more than 2 inches in one bone is associated with higher complication rates. If desired, another entirely separate lengthening procedure can be performed one year later in the shin bones (tibiae) to gain an additional 2 inches (5 cm) of height.
Dr Dror Paley:
- 8cms femur and 6-7 cms tibia. 1 mm daily femur and .75 tibias
Dr Shahab Mahboubian:
- If the PRECICE lengthening device is used, the current limitation is 6.5cm. If the LATN or LON technique is used, patients can gain 8 cm or more, if their body accommodates the lengthening well.
Dr Saurabh Khakharia:
- 1mm daily rate of lengthening. Amount of lengthening will depend on how your body takes it.
Dr Suhas Shah :
- Cosmetic lengthening of the tibias is recommended a maximum of 7.5 cm with external fixation, LON, or LATP
Dr Manish Dhawan:
- Lengthening of 5 to 8 cm will require 5.5 to 6.5 months.
Dr Mangal Parihar:
- Max 6 cms. daily rate 0.75 to 1 mm, depending on pain and muscle tightness.
Dr Amar Sarin:
-Safely can increase 22 5 of leg length. Lengthening depends on person to person may be 1.25mm to .5 MM
Dr Guichet:
-It depends on your body, and that must be evaluated. Some patients stop at a 5 cm gain, while others may go to 9 or 10 cm. All patients do not have the same body or psychological capacities. In Dr. Guichet’s practice, the average gain is 68 mm in cosmetic lengthening (115 cases).
Dr Alex Monegal:
-I recommend to use intramedullar devices. We can lengthen up to 8cm in fémur and 6 in tibia. It depends on your current height and the tibio-femoral proportion What i might advice you to lengthen.
Dr Jamal Nemer:
- Optimum value of the lengthening: 6,5-7,0 cms for femurs and 4,5 - 5,0 cms for tibias. Maximum "hard" program: 10-11 cms for femurs and 6-7 cms for tibias. There is a big resistance of Achilles tendon after 4,5-5,0 cm of tibias lengthening. And there is a big resistance of hip's muscles after 6,0 - 7,0 cm of femurs lengthening .
Dr Milorad Mitkovic:
- the recommended maximal lengthening is 5-7.5cm or 2-3 inches.
Dr Maurizio Catagni :
-At the level of the leg, with 2 level of osteotomy, with Ilizarov ring fixator, for an amount of 5-8cm, depending from the patient
Dr Alexander Kirienko:
-Recomendent amount of lengthening 6-8 cm of both legs.
Dr Rainer Baumgart :
-In normal proportioned people lengthening of more than 5cm (2 inches) only at the femur or at the tibia creates disproportions, which is not advantageous. If you want to get more than 5cm (2 inches), it is normally necessary to lengthen femur and tibia simultaneously. With this procedure you can reach 10-15cm (4-6 inches) or even more, but in most cases the relationship to the frame becomes disadvantageous if you lengthen more than about 10cm (4 inches).
Dr Augustin Betz:
- Our patients can gain up to 4-5 inches (10-12 cm) in one operation on upper legs (femurs) or lower legs (tibias). Patients may also gain a total of 8-9 inches (20-22 cm) in 2 operations. 1st operation on femur for 4-5 inches (10-12 cm). 2nd operation on tibias for 4 inches (10 cm). The amount of gain in tibias may vary from patient to patient. In many cases it is advised by Prof. Dr. Betz to lengthen up to 6-8 cm in tibias. Patients gain an average of 7-10 cm in one bone region at the Betz institute. The rate of lengthening is 1 millimetre per day
Dr. Ghassan Salameh:
- 8 cm , 0.8 mm per day
Drs Wiebking/Krettek/Jagodzinski/Liodakis:
- ISKD and Precice nail. Lengthening up to 8cm possible.
Dr Muharrem Inan:
- The ideal lengthening amount is 1/5th of the original length of the bone. The maximum tolerable amounts of lengthening we advise is 8 cm for femurs and 6 cm for tibiae.
Dr.Mehmet Kocaoglu:
- Eight and seven cms. My average amount of lengthening for cosmetic lengthening patients is 8-10 cms.
Dr Hae-Ryong Song:
- complication rates was increased in cases with lengthening of more than 30% of initial length. So, usually, for tibia, we lengthened about 7 - 8 cm. and for femur we lengthened about 5-7cm.
Dr Donghoon Lee:
- To minimize various complications resulting from limb lengthening, it is recommended that lengthening is performed under 20% of the original bone length, and by an experienced surgeon. Since the femur is longer than the tibia, generally speaking it is possible to lengthen more when lengthening the femur. However, since the muscles surrounding the femur are very strong, too much lengthening could lead to joint contracture in the hip joint or knee joint, so caution must be taken. According to Park's report (Park HW et al, JBJS,2008 ) , 25% of the people who lengthen the tibia(6cm in average) was found to have some difficulties in persuing vigorous activity If both Tibia and Femur are lengthened sequentially, the maximum to be 10cm in total. But, one more important thing is to consider body ratio. So, I recommend to decide the target considering the safety, recovery of sports activity and body ratio.
Dr Aimin Peng:
- 6-8 cm lengthening for cosmetic purpose Dr. Peng always recommends. The rate of lengthening daily is 0.66-0.67mm as average.
Dr Xia/Dr Li:
-In regard to the lengthening surgery, we usually lengthen the tibiae for cosmetic purposes, as most of people with short stature have relatively short tibiae, and the lengthening of tibiae will make them look more even. The surgery on tibiae is also relatively easy and risk free comparing to femurs (as there are a lot of muscles around it and special cares are needed to keep the patients comfortable during the lengthening). In most of cases, 8-10 (3-4 inches) cm tibial lengthening is sufficient to satisfy the needs.
Dr Bai Helong:
-6 一7cm is the maximum lengthening amount we recommend for safety in tibia . Sorry we do not do femur.
Dr Lyall Ashberg :
-Maximum lengthening that I would consider safe at this stage, would be about 5cm to 6cm of each segment (femur or tibia). Thus 10cm is realistic to achieve safely (~4 inches) but only in a staged fashion. It is possible to continue lengthening if there are no complications, given that the current Precise nails distract up to 6.5cm (another 3cm or 1.2 inches). This can be decided upon as the process continues.
Dr Franz Birkholtz:
-Functional recovery is multifactorial but we expect high levels of recovery in lengthenings between 5 and 10 cm. Cosmetically 10cm still keeps people in proportion. I would aim for 5-6 cm on femur and 4-5 cm on tibia. Arthritis is probably due to malalignment, but also increased joint pressures. This seems to be related to the extent of the lengthening as well.
Dr. Richard Luzzi :
- Safety reasons: 5cm tibias, 6cm femurs;
Dr Mirzoyan:
- In our practice we have increased length 14 cm (5.5 inches)for cosmetic reasons. This was indicated because of obvious disproportion between the patient’s body and legs. Theoretically, there is no limit. The problem is to estimate comprehensively how much any particular patient ultimately needs to make him proportional. Proportion between the tibia (lower leg) and the femur (upper leg) is also very important. With some frequency, potential patients ask us to lengthen tibias only by 8 or 10cm. We never do this. Priority №1 for us is the final esthetic result, and beyond that, biomechanical correctness
Dr. Khaqan Jahangir Janjua:
-We can increase your height by 5 to 12 cm (in stages).
Dr Porn-A-Nake Tardthong:
- The height that you may get will be about 5 - 8 centimeters depending on your anatomical structure. One important caution about this procedure is you should follow our instructions strictly; absolute bed rest and a good understanding why you need to use the wheelchair and restrict strenuous activities. *Please note that this limit may vary a bit, depending on your individual anatomical structures. If your legs are rather short compared to your upper body, you are a suitable candidate for limblengthening or height increase surgery. However, the maximum length somebody can gain is about 12 cm or more.
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great post,there is no general consensus, but 5 cm per segment seems to be the safe limit.
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Seems like 7-8 cm is fine for tibia if your bone length is longer (22.5% in my case)
But I think I will err on the side of caution and do 7-7.5 cm only because worried too tall in my country and greater chance of athletic abilities recovery
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Maybe stick this post as a general info thread?
In general it seems like 4CM should be "safe" while 7-8CM is pushing it.
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I would say 5cm is pretty good estimate of the "safe" limit. In my experience, and in other diaries I have read, it seems that soft tissue/nerve pain often starts to escalate around the 5cm mark. I know that's when things got bad for me.
Only patients who are extremely naturally flexible and/or just straight up lucky can hope to do 7.5cm+ in one surgery. At least, that's my opinion, having struggled a good amount to get to around 7cm (and I worked hard and did all my PT). Then again, I didn't get any soft tissue releases, so that made my experience that much harder.
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I would say 5cm is pretty good estimate of the "safe" limit. In my experience, and in other diaries I have read, it seems that soft tissue/nerve pain often starts to escalate around the 5cm mark. I know that's when things got bad for me.
Only patients who are extremely naturally flexible and/or just straight up lucky can hope to do 7.5cm+ in one surgery. At least, that's my opinion, having struggled a good amount to get to around 7cm (and I worked hard and did all my PT). Then again, I didn't get any soft tissue releases, so that made my experience that much harder.
Im at 5.5 cm and still no nerve pains. Im only on paracetamol and lyrica 75 mg (stopped tramadol for a week). I will listen to my body and stop if it gets too pain..
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Im at 5.5 cm and still no nerve pains. Im only on paracetamol and lyrica 75 mg (stopped tramadol for a week). I will listen to my body and stop if it gets too pain..
Yeah I"m going to see if I can get another prescription for Lyrica, although Dr. Guichet said there are better medicines for nerve pain that comes from LL. Right now, if it weren't for the nerve pain, I'd feel a lot better.
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Yeah I"m going to see if I can get another prescription for Lyrica, although Dr. Guichet said there are better medicines for nerve pain that comes from LL. Right now, if it weren't for the nerve pain, I'd feel a lot better.
Pregabalin and its sister (I cant remember the name) are best for nerve pains. they are first-line agent and med students all know them..
Even when I stop Lyrica, I don't feel any pains... But I take LYrica 75 mg at night to sleep. It makes you feel calm and relaxed.
I could have stopped Lyrica, but I get breathless when I reduce it to zero.
So now I am taking 75 mg and next week I drop to 50 mg/day.
I take lyrica now not for pain :'(
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Pregabalin and its sister (I cant remember the name) are best for nerve pains. they are first-line agent and med students all know them..
Even when I stop Lyrica, I don't feel any pains... But I take LYrica 75 mg at night to sleep. It makes you feel calm and relaxed.
I could have stopped Lyrica, but I get breathless when I reduce it to zero.
So now I am taking 75 mg and next week I drop to 50 mg/day.
I take lyrica now not for pain :'(
What has helped you the most with nerve pain? I texted ChrisIsaak to ask him, but he says Tramadol, but that didn't do much for my nerve pain. I'm going to ask Dr. Guichet to contact my personal doctor here at home to give me another Rx, because pharmacies near me all won't take international prescriptions. So damn annoying.
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I was experiencing some bad pains at about 4 cm. Tramadol + Lyrica, really helps..... Did it work for you?
Why do I experience zero pain now at 5.5 cm? According to my docs, the pain drops off mid-way, so I can expect more pain soon?? :-X
Now I can even stop paracetamol and be totally pain-free......
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Some doctors agree to do the number of cm you want to do and then you get problems. 5 or 6 cm is the maximum limit for tibiae and 6 or 7 for femurs... and its risky. I would advise 4 + 6 as a maximum, and that's a lot. You won't be the same after all that lenghtening
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I think 1.5cm internal femurs + 2.5cm external tibias is the safest way for me. And 4cm is the amount I would be satisfied with.
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I think 1.5cm internal femurs + 2.5cm external tibias is the safest way for me. And 4cm is the amount I would be satisfied with.
1,5 cm. Are you crazy ? Any doctor will accept you
do 4 cm in one operation, more simply and no more risky than 2 operations
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1.5 + 2.5 isn't reasonable. Your soft tissues will recover better than if you lengthen more but what about the trauma of doing both tibias and femurs? not reasonable
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1.5 + 2.5 isn't reasonable. Your soft tissues will recover better than if you lengthen more but what about the trauma of doing both tibias and femurs? not reasonable
Yes, I'm aiming for long-term recovery as top priority. How I would do it is do 2.5cm external tibia first, and then after 3-4 years do 1.5cm internal femur. All from top doctors. Money and time is not really an issue.
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Yes, I'm aiming for long-term recovery as top priority. How I would do it is do 2.5cm external tibia first, and then after 3-4 years do 1.5cm internal femur. All from top doctors. Money and time is not really an issue.
Apparently this guy has no idea what he's talking about
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Apparently this guy has no idea what he's talking about
Don't comment if you have nothing useful to say. Mod plz ban this guy. Thanks
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Don't comment if you have nothing useful to say. Mod plz ban this guy. Thanks
You want to ban him because he has a different oppinipon than you? ;D
Doing 1,5cm´s with an internal device is stupid (not only money wise), you didn´t really consider the fact that the surgery alone is pretty scary. The anesthetics and painkillers are pretty harmful for your system and the x-rays increase your chance of cancer in the long run. So doing this procedure twice for only 4cm´s in total is not smart.
Do 4-5cm´s with an internal nail and call it a day.
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You want to ban him because he has a different oppinipon than you? ;D
Doing 1,5cm´s with an internal device is stupid (not only money wise), you didn´t really consider the fact that the surgery alone is pretty scary. The anesthetics and painkillers are pretty harmful for your system and the x-rays increase your chance of cancer in the long run. So doing this procedure twice for only 4cm´s in total is not smart.
Do 4-5cm´s with an internal nail and call it a day.
He didn't state an opinion, he just insulted me for no reason. Useless, negative posters need to get banned ;D
I'm not worried about using anesthetics and x-rays. There are no studies that show anesthetics are harmful to the body and that x-rays cause cancer. Even if it was a little toxic to your body, you can recover from it easily over time. What you cannot recover from is mechanical deviation and stretched out muscles/tendons and other soft tissue and nerve damage in your legs that is inevitable if you do large amounts of lengthening. 1.5cm is enough that I can get a significant height increase while minimizing mechanical deviation and soft tissue damage. Also, I can get back to regular life a lot more easily if I do 1.5cm.
Also I think doing femurs 3-4 years after I do tibia is better since I can have a long time to recover from the first surgery. 2.5cm in tibia is about 5 months total recovery. 1.5cm internal femur is about 2 months for lengthening/consolidation time.
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He didn't state an opinion, he just insulted me for no reason. Useless, negative posters need to get banned ;D
I'm not worried about using anesthetics and x-rays. There are no studies that show anesthetics are harmful to the body and that x-rays cause cancer. Even if it was a little toxic to your body, you can recover from it easily over time. What you cannot recover from is mechanical deviation and stretched out muscles/tendons and other soft tissue and nerve damage in your legs that is inevitable if you do large amounts of lengthening. 1.5cm is enough that I can get a significant height increase while minimizing mechanical deviation and soft tissue damage. Also, I can get back to regular life a lot more easily if I do 1.5cm.
Also I think doing femurs 3-4 years after I do tibia is better since I can have a long time to recover from the first surgery. 2.5cm in tibia is about 5 months total recovery. 1.5cm internal femur is about 2 months for lengthening/consolidation time.
What? Did you just say that there is no evidence that x-rays increase the chance of getting cancer? :o Dude, please inform yourself a little about the subject, it's for your own good.
Edit:
Anesthetics are related to brain damage btw. Saying there are no dangers involved by the x-rays , anestaethics, the pin killers and the stress that is caused by the surgery is just wrong. Every decent doctor will tell you that.
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What? Did you just say that there is no evidence that x-rays increase the chance of getting cancer? :o Dude, please inform yourself a little about the subject, it's for your own good.
No I did not say that. I said there are no studies that show x-rays cause cancer. The human body repairs low-dose radiation damage.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306067.php
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No I did not say that. I said there are no studies that show x-rays cause cancer. The human body repairs low-dose radiation damage.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306067.php
http://ukhealthcare.uky.edu/CT-risks/
They used fruit to test this, so it's not necessarily the most accurate studie for humans. Non the less it's known that radiologists do have an increased risk to develop cancer.
To get back to the original topic, 1.5cm's can easily accieved by using lifts. Spending so much money and time for a very similar result is probably not worth it.
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http://ukhealthcare.uky.edu/CT-risks/
They used fruit to test this, so it's not necessarily the most accurate studie for humans. Non the less it's known that radiologists do have an increased risk to develop cancer.
To get back to the original topic, 1.5cm's can easily accieved by using lifts. Spending so much money and time for a very similar result is probably not worth it.
Not to argue with you, but radiologists spend all day in that environment. Getting a few x-rays for LL poses a negligible amount of risk for cancer.
I already wear shoe lifts, but there's a maximum amount of shoe lift I can wear comfortably on a daily basis. Currently my shoes+lifts give me 4cms in height, but if I try to increase that, it's not comfortable. For me, it's not sustainable after 4cm shoe+lifts.
Also, the total amount of LL I want is around 4cm and I think it's worth doing both segments because it's safer for the legs to do less amounts each.
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why not do 4 km in one operation? It is not less risky
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Woah, I consider myself part of the "don't-lengthen-too-much" yihad, but both segments for just 4 cm is crazy.
And even more, why 2.5 cm in tibias and 1.5 in femurs? Unless your tibias are naturally longer than your femurs (is that possible?) you are changing your tibia-femur ratio for no reason (2.3 in femurs and 1.7 in tibias could be better, but whatever... it still sounds crazy)
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4 cm in two surgeries :D what a nut job haha
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why not do 4 km in one operation? It is not less risky
I completely agree. 4Km is indeed the best. You will be the tallest person in every situation :D
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Hello
I am experiencing really bad pain 6 years after my last leg lengthening operation in which I have had 3 in total . I am taking much more painkillers now than I ever did during my treatment !
I was wondering if anyone else Is having this trouble with arthritis and nerve damage I am now on morphine continually and there is no sign of me coming off it !
I am so grateful of my surgeries and without them I wouldn't have been able to get about without crutches or a wheelchair .
I am 27 years old and am just a bit worried about what the future holds and wondering if there's anything that's anyone has came across to help ?
Thank you
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Hello
I am experiencing really bad pain 6 years after my last leg lengthening operation in which I have had 3 in total . I am taking much more painkillers now than I ever did during my treatment !
I was wondering if anyone else Is having this trouble with arthritis and nerve damage I am now on morphine continually and there is no sign of me coming off it !
I am so grateful of my surgeries and without them I wouldn't have been able to get about without crutches or a wheelchair .
I am 27 years old and am just a bit worried about what the future holds and wondering if there's anything that's anyone has came across to help ?
Thank you
who is your Dr.? and What part did you have leg lengthening operation? (femur or tibias? )
what method did you take?
good for you, but 6 years for recovery is too slow.
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Hello
I am experiencing really bad pain 6 years after my last leg lengthening operation in which I have had 3 in total . I am taking much more painkillers now than I ever did during my treatment !
I was wondering if anyone else Is having this trouble with arthritis and nerve damage I am now on morphine continually and there is no sign of me coming off it !
I am so grateful of my surgeries and without them I wouldn't have been able to get about without crutches or a wheelchair .
I am 27 years old and am just a bit worried about what the future holds and wondering if there's anything that's anyone has came across to help ?
Thank you
How much did you lengthen in each segment? what's your height now? Why did you do 3 surgeries? You had acondroplasia? Leg disperencies?
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i just read on old forum, is it true that the bone will shrink, so if i lengthen 4 cm, the actual will be like only 3 to 3.5cm?
How can bone shrink??? Please use your brain to think before asking such question.
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Hi! So for an example for the femur. The consensus is something like:
Do 6cm if you want to be safe and 8cm as the max limit.
But wouldn't 15% for safety and 20% for a max be a better way to explain it.
From my inaccurate measurements my femur is 40cm and my tibia is 34cm.
So if I do 15% on both segments I would achieve:
40 * 0.15 + 34 * 0.15 = 6 + 5 = Around 11cm
Someone with lets say 47cm femur and 40cm tibia could lengthen.
48 * 0.15 + 42 * 0.15 = 7 + 5 = Around 12cm.
That means I could lengthen to 177cm before screwing myself over, disregarding proportions.
Am I correct in this or is the % irrelevant since some people can lengthen 10% and some 20% and get the same result, therefore rendering this useless and rough estimates of 6 and 5 cm being better?
Just some shower thoughts.
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Hi! So for an example for the femur. The consensus is something like:
Do 6cm if you want to be safe and 8cm as the max limit.
But wouldn't 15% for safety and 20% for a max be a better way to explain it.
From my inaccurate measurements my femur is 40cm and my tibia is 34cm.
So if I do 15% on both segments I would achieve:
40 * 0.15 + 34 * 0.15 = 6 + 5 = Around 11cm
Someone with lets say 47cm femur and 40cm tibia could lengthen.
48 * 0.15 + 42 * 0.15 = 7 + 5 = Around 12cm.
That means I could lengthen to 177cm before screwing myself over, disregarding proportions.
Am I correct in this or is the % irrelevant since some people can lengthen 10% and some 20% and get the same result, therefore rendering this useless and rough estimates of 6 and 5 cm being better?
Just some shower thoughts.
Everyone who wants LL is either short or just below average so 5cm is almost the same % to everyone.
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We have seen a lot of people from 150 to 180 doing it though.
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We have seen a lot of people from 150 to 180 doing it though.
I've to be honest, I'vent read any diary of a 150cm or 180cm tall person. Most diaries I've read are from 162~172cm.
*edit* Also, I believe people use cm and not % because they don't know the exact length of their femur.
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I know one guy who was 180.1 and went to 185.1 I think. I also saw some diary about a woman who was 5 feet I think, that would be like 152-153 I guess.
The definitely exist.
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I know one guy who was 180.1 and went to 185.1 I think. I also saw some diary about a woman who was 5 feet I think, that would be like 152-153 I guess.
The definitely exist.
I believe you. But for some reason doctors always ask you how many cm's you would like to lenghten and not how much %.
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I have seen some doctors talk about %. I think it was a Turkish and a Korean one. Maybe it was Dr. Inan and Dr. Lee (Don't remember really)
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Some doctors say you shouldnt go over 10 per cent, but if the amount of cm is not over 20 per cetn it is well tolerated.
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Some doctors say you shouldnt go over 10 per cent, but if the amount of cm is not over 20 per cetn it is well tolerated.
there is no any medical or scientific approve that some specific percentage play a very strong rule. I know two people's diary that made 23% and they do better than one with 15%. the most accurate factor is when your doctor "expert one" ask you to stop. so 15-23% based on diary should be realistic yet.
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The lengthening will vary from person to person your body doesn't give a sh@t about percentages or formulas you have come up with.
These ridiculous percentages/formulas individuals come up with in here are proof that these people are clearly not wired up right and should not be doing this surgery.
The proportion police are severe body neurotics/dysphoriacs its proper medications they need not surgery.
'Oh if I lengthen 8cms il have lengthened 'x' percentage of my tibia which will make my tibia/femur ratio 'x' amount blah blah blah. Trust me when you cannot walk properly or are hobbling about on crutches for a year the last thing on your mind will be your fkn wingspan or ratios
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Yes because there is no difference between lengthening 5cm and 10cm.
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Yes because there is no difference between lengthening 5cm and 10cm.
there are people with 7 cm and fked up and some people with 9 cm and doing very well. so it depends on your body mostly then numbers
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there are people with 7 cm and fked up and some people with 9 cm and doing very well. so it depends on your body mostly then numbers
Funny, because people that end up with problems are people who lengthen more than 6cm.
Absolute coincidence right?
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Funny, because people that end up with problems are people who lengthen more than 6cm.
Absolute coincidence right?
i said it clear "depend on your body". even 5 sometimes a problem and you should stop before. just follow your body thats it
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It'd be awesome if we could get a reputable doctors input on this. I beleive the 5 to 6cm limit is not for the bone. It is for your soft tissues. Once they stretch beyond 5 to 6 cm, you start losing more and more function.
Its also hard to gauge peoples recovery because some people don't care about athleticism. They grow. If they can walk they are content where as other people feel LL crippled there life because they can't run like they used to even though they can walk just fine or even run moderately.
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There's zero debate with this the more you lengthen the bigger the risk! As for the folk who have done 9-12cms per segment give it a decade and let's see what shape they are in. And as for the folk that have done both segments and done in excess of 15cms trust me youl be glad you are not them in future.
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I never said that there was any magic formula. I am just saying the the "under 6cm tibia and you will be safe" will most likely not apply if you are 150 and have really short tibias. So when setting a goal for yourself. Remember, I am talking about goals. Doing it % wise is a better way.
And also, since most people don't get the big issues before 5cm which is under 15% for most people. Setting a goal of 15% on each bone would be wise for me.
For an example @YourSpaceBoyfriend, your goal is 6cm femur and 4cm tibia. Doing the math most likely it would be wiser to do less femur and more tibia. Since your femur is not 50% longer than your tibia. (Not attacking you just taking your goal as an example since I think it's a very good and realistic one.)
This is just estimates as I find the math fun, and people with an iq over 105 will understand that.
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How is 15% 8-10cm?
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I never said that there was any magic formula. I am just saying the the "under 6cm tibia and you will be safe" will most likely not apply if you are 150 and have really short tibias. So when setting a goal for yourself. Remember, I am talking about goals. Doing it % wise is a better way.
And also, since most people don't get the big issues before 5cm which is under 15% for most people. Setting a goal of 15% on each bone would be wise for me.
For an example @YourSpaceBoyfriend, your goal is 6cm femur and 4cm tibia. Doing the math most likely it would be wiser to do less femur and more tibia. Since your femur is not 50% longer than your tibia. (Not attacking you just taking your goal as an example since I think it's a very good and realistic one.)
This is just estimates as I find the math fun, and people with an iq over 105 will understand that.
Sorry pal I wasn't having a go I'm just trying to point out that these formulas just don't mean anything. Il give you two examples, two guys I met in Beijing one was 164 and the other 172cms starting heights the first lengthened 5cms the second 5.5cms. The first said he felt the safe range on his tibias was 4cms and he has problems to this day, the second one got 3.5cms removed as his feet didn't move and running was virtually impossible. These 'safe ranges' are largely made up.
The people here who have claimed to recover their athletic abilities likely had the athleticism of Steven Hawking before they even done this surgery so it's a pointless conparison.
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How is 15% 8-10cm?
Wasn't talking to you was talking to the little poofter Zaney, the wee fag that will never do this surgery. The little pointer who thinks he's an intellectual. He's probably a Trekkie who goes along to conventions to play online gaming. He's likely a nappy wearing homo who can no longer hold his bowels due to years upon years of consented sodomy 😂😂😂😂😂
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That about those cases in Beijing is actually valuable information. Most likely you lose more potential than you lose current performance. Some don't experience a big loss in athletisism since they weren't even close to their potential. That's my guess.
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That about those cases in Beijing is actually valuable information. Most likely you lose more potential than you lose current performance. Some don't experience a big loss in athletisism since they weren't even close to their potential. That's my guess.
Pm me pal
The average person is not athletic in this day and age hence the reason 15 year olds are sporting the physiques of 40 year olds these days. Comparing the average persons athleticism with a guy who squats 400 or who runs the 100 in 11.5 is like comparing the athletic abilities of a darts player with Bryan Habana. Even if cosmetic appearance is your only goal your basic functioning will suffer and you have no idea what you may want to do in future. This surgery if done to excessive amounts basically disables you to a degree.
The folk who claim 100% athletic recoveries are likely A) fake profiles B) were never athletic in the first place C) folk in denial about what they have actually done to themselves. And the others who claim you can recover but have never actually done it are in denial and can't accept the fact that it's a toss up between being taller and losing function vs a lifetime of living the life as a short guy. I understand the frustration however this is the reality of the procedure.
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Bigpo you are saying that mathematics are silly, just remeber that your roof was built based on mathematics.
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Bigpo you are saying that mathematics are silly, just remeber that your roof was built based on mathematics.
No not at all but there is no precise formula for this surgery that will avoid complications, its a gamble and that's it.
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No not at all but there is no precise formula for this surgery that will avoid complications, its a gamble and that's it.
The surgery is definitely a gamble no matter the length you could do 4cm and be messed up, you could do 7cm and be messed up vice versa. There's no lemgth or "safe percentage" although one has to admit that the more you lengthen to higher the chance you run into complications.
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The surgery is definitely a gamble no matter the length you could do 4cm and be messed up, you could do 7cm and be messed up vice versa. There's no lemgth or "safe percentage" although one has to admit that the more you lengthen to higher the chance you run into complications.
Very true
Sadly these facts are lost on a lot of people on here
This surgery was never intended to be used for cosmetic purposes the general amounts surgeons would do were 1-4cms and it was for didcrepancies not height related issues
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Don't even compare 4cm to 7cm, it's whole another dimension of gambling.
There is even risk that you will get bombed by ISIS when going to the hospital. It's not about having no risk at all but reducing it as much as you can.
Benefits need to outweight drowbacks, no height is worth walking like a 60 year old man.
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Lengthening 7cm doesn't mean you're gunna be walking like a 60 year old man I will be the proof of that if you don't find there to be enough already.
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I never said that.
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The lengthening will vary from person to person your body doesn't give a sh@t about percentages or formulas you have come up with.
These ridiculous percentages/formulas individuals come up with in here are proof that these people are clearly not wired up right and should not be doing this surgery.
The proportion police are severe body neurotics/dysphoriacs its proper medications they need not surgery.
'Oh if I lengthen 8cms il have lengthened 'x' percentage of my tibia which will make my tibia/femur ratio 'x' amount blah blah blah. Trust me when you cannot walk properly or are hobbling about on crutches for a year the last thing on your mind will be your fkn wingspan or ratios
Dude - people need hope. This surgery for many people is a way to make it through the hardships of their day, a day of feeling inferior and unhappy, the feeling of not being in the appearance you want to be. They learn that the surgery exists and it serves as a dream of the end of these horrible feelings, a dream of being taller, because that's what some people want very badly. Of course they think about how much they will be able to gain, and of course they will dream of 8 cms, or more. Thinking that "maybe I can lengthen 3 cms before my body resists too much and I have to stop" is not a great glimpse of hope for these people.
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Hope is fine so long as you are not being delusional. There's a huge difference between a positive attitude and a delusional one. Most of the people on this board suffer from the latter!
I get it being short fking sucks it wrecks our lives and we have no control over it however pushing yourself to do 'ideal' amounts or trying to get your money's worth for what you paid is going to fk a lot of people up.
This surgery I'm sure has helped a lot of people the ones who did safe amounts and listened to their bodies however I'm sure there are numerous folk out there this surgery has messed up badly.
This surgery is not your knight in shining armour that a lot of folk on here think it is
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Every time there's a change you know exactly what you're leaving, but not exactly where you'll be, your new feelings. You have in mind just a very perfect idea, not an already touched and lived reality. Thanks to this forum all the LL candidates can touch the realities of the ones who have had their own individual and unrepeatable experiences reported in their own diaries.
But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?). So, if the LLeners have not disappeared, between the lines it's like that there's a sort of light regreat, of light sadness, of not completly achieved happiness, maybe due to: loss of money, loss of time, loss of health, loss of athletic abilities, loss of proportions, use of aesthetic strategies to disguise the new proportions ( before LL use of lifts/ after LL use of disguising strategies).
So, the original romantic gap between the perfect idea before LL and reality is still there: perhaps in the end nothing changes, you're just taller from the outside, but inside you are always the same, what you are.
"Nature has fram'd strange fellows in her time: some that will evermore peep through their eyes, and laugh, like parrots, at a bag-piper, and others of such vinegar aspect, that they'll not show their teeth in way of smile, though Nestor swear the jest to be laughable".
So, is LL worth?
Yes, if you're more or less like a midget very far from the average of your country (but once again it's all relative) or if the alternative of your actual state of mind is suicide, go for it; otherwise you could think one more time while wearing lifts:))
Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible, you will abandon forever your golden section proportions (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).
So, before doing LL, consider that your original perfect idea could not unfortunatly become your expected and waited for so long reality, but if the fate wants it, your perfect idea will be your perfect reality forever.
You have to offer a sacrifice to Zeus, so that the fate will be your knight in shining armour...
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Every time there's a change you know exactly what you're leaving, but not exactly where you'll be, your new feelings. You have in mind just a very perfect idea, not an already touched and lived reality. Thanks to this forum all the LL candidates can touch the realities of the ones who have had their own individual and unrepeatable experiences reported in their own diaries.
But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?). So, if the LLeners have not disappeared, between the lines it's like that there's a sort of light regreat, of light sadness, of not completly achieved happiness, maybe due to: loss of money, loss of time, loss of health, loss of athletic abilities, loss of proportions, use of aesthetic strategies to disguise the new proportions ( before LL use of lifts/ after LL use of disguising strategies).
So, the original romantic gap between the perfect idea before LL and reality is still there: perhaps in the end nothing changes, you're just taller from the outside, but inside you are always the same, what you are.
"Nature has fram'd strange fellows in her time: some that will evermore peep through their eyes, and laugh, like parrots, at a bag-piper, and others of such vinegar aspect, that they'll not show their teeth in way of smile, though Nestor swear the jest to be laughable".
So, is LL worth?
Yes, if you're more or less like a midget very far from the average of your country (but once again it's all relative) or if the alternative of your actual state of mind is suicide, go for it; otherwise you could think one more time while wearing lifts:))
Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible, you will abandon forever your golden section proportions (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).
So, before doing LL, consider that your original perfect idea could not unfortunatly become your expected and waited for so long reality, but if the fate wants it, your perfect idea will be your perfect reality forever.
You have to offer a sacrifice to Zeus, so that the fate will be your knight in shining armour...
Once you completely healed there is no long term complication
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Once you've undertaken this path, you can't go back, it's irreversible, you will abandon forever your golden section proportions (except for individual safe amounts) and when older you'll have more probabilities (expect for individual safe amounts) of facing eventual problems such as stasis eczema, arthritis, thrombosis... (source Wikipedia).
There've been no long term studies linking LL to athritis, and except maybe LON, how?
As for proportions, as long as you don't look horrendous, you're the only one that will mostly care about them. "We're all the heroes of our own stories" and most people are too busy minding their own business to care. But yeah, if you lengthen half a foot you're going to look bad.
I wouldn't look at LL as a means to go from 5' to 6' but a few inches gain depending on your proportions, time, money etc is rational. I've never seen a case with 2-3" of lengthening that made me go "There's definitely something wrong here" unless your segment is already unnaturally long and you lengthen that one. Even those inches can be life changing for those below average height.
But in a lot of diaries in the old forum and in this one there is no big evidence of more happiness/self-confidence achieved (except maybe in a dozen of them: can you list these cases please?)
I made a poll about whether LL was worth it to those who did it: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3741.msg57002#msg57002
Unless a lot of non-veterans have voted and ruined it, most people agree it was. The comments show them being happy with their LL. Unicorn faced complications, she's still happy. The boy doing his LL cheap in Vietnam is happy. I'm very glad I did this(I'm not done yet). These are just the recent diaries.
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// breaking my self-imposed abstinence from this forum to hopefully share something useful
The most meaningful advice I got regarding percentages, centimeters, etc. was from Drs. Paley and Packer. They both said "how much you lengthen depends on how much your body is able to tolerate. We will not lengthen you more than your body can realistically achieve under medically safe parameters." (this takes into account the hard limit of 8cm of the Precise nail, obviously)
I don't know what all the parameters are, but I would suspect they involve loss of flexibility, loss of range of motion, nerve damage, bones not healing, etc.
During my conversation with Dr. Packer, she said some people come in and are absolutely fixated on the full 8 centimeters, and in some cases, some of those people have to make peace with the reality that it will just not happen for them.
So, neither percentages nor centimeters are most important. Safety is most important. You want to come out exactly like you came in health-wise, just taller (and, well, with a few somewhat noticeable scars - not much can be done about that except fading over time, creams, plastic surgery, if it's all that important).
I have a goal, but am not married to that goal. I don't want to do multiple surgeries, and I want as close to a full recovery as possible. It's already awesome that you can grow 3 inches after your growth plates close - even less than that, huge achievement for most people. Go in with safety as the #1 priority, come out healthy and enjoy your new height.
Here are, however, some things that _may_ help get you close to the maximum number:
1) Lots of flexibility. With all the doctors I've consulted, they all cited this as the # 1 success factor in getting the maximum amount of height from the procedure
2) A very regimented and methodical recovery plan, and extra stretching and PT.
- Dr. Packer really stressed this. Everything has to be done on the clock, daily, like the most punctual drill of your life.
3) Obviously, optimal health and lean muscle mass. No smoking, drinking, etc.
- Dr. Guichet is on to something when he says "prepare like an Olympic athlete for this". Bodies that are healthy and strong have much lower risk factors and chances of complication, and will generally recover faster.
- Drs. Paley and Packer reinforced the health part. They both said that in some cases, older patients recover faster than much younger ones due a much more optimal physical condition. Programdude's diary mentioned this several times, from his experience. They went as far as saying that even up to 50 years of age, age is not a factor for patients that are very healthy and in good shape.
Last - Yoga and especially Pilates. I've "grown" a full inch from both. Mind you, this is making the most of height I had but lost due to moderate scoliosis and, despite ridiculous flexibility and athleticism, poor posture and neck alignment. Probably also the case for most people, our posture sucks nowdays. So this gives you back something you probably already had, but 2.2 cms is nothing to laugh at and it's either less that you have to lengthen, or something extra to gain.
I should mention that this is the most I'll gain through Yoga and Pilates. I've straightened and realigned my spine as much as I can without surgery (and it's been close to a full recovery), but aside from not walking around with a stupid hip gait, I'm a bit taller, and that's pretty awesome. They'll also get you flexible if you're not, which will definitely help with the procedure.
Also, there are absolutely tall people that do this surgery. Dr. Paley operated on a 5'11" Dutch patient (he cites this on his website). Of the thousands of people that do this procedure (Precise alone apparently just hit 2,000 nails, with Dr. Paley having inserted 350 of them, there are only a handful of diaries, and the majority are on this site). I won't reveal my height - many have asked - but I cannot be considered short (I also cannot be considered tall, I am not 6'), and I'll have this surgery in less than 3 months.
HTH. Focus on going in as flexible and as healthy as you can, and always keep safety first.
--jbc
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Hope is fine so long as you are not being delusional. There's a huge difference between a positive attitude and a delusional one. Most of the people on this board suffer from the latter!
I get it being short fking sucks it wrecks our lives and we have no control over it however pushing yourself to do 'ideal' amounts or trying to get your money's worth for what you paid is going to fk a lot of people up.
This surgery I'm sure has helped a lot of people the ones who did safe amounts and listened to their bodies however I'm sure there are numerous folk out there this surgery has messed up badly.
This surgery is not your knight in shining armour that a lot of folk on here think it is
Of course if you come really close to the actual surgery, you have to consider all possible outcomes, and prepare for a painful recovery time. But if your surgery is still years away, and you struggle from day to day, because you are constantly towered by taller dudes and you feel like trash, using the thought that "one day, I'll do LL and easily be 6-7 cms (or a similar number) taller, it won't be easy, but I will prepare for my best, manage the recovery, and then I'll finally have more of the height I've always wanted" as your distant hope to cure your depression, is perfectly fine.
Not to mention the possible advancement of lengthening techniques and new technologies like stem cells, nanobots, synthetic growth plates. These can also be great spots of hope, even if they're 120 years away, because future generations won't have to suffer the height neurosis I have to.
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You should not get your info from an online website run by non Drs
So even though my diary is real, you can NOT trust any diary on here, including mine
This forum still has Suhas Shah up as a Dr. I can tell you for a fact that Dr shah would never be allowed to practice in the United States, and his clinic would never pass any state inspection
There are patients on here that still can not walk 1-2 years after surgery. When I say can not walk, I'm not talking about a case such as myself, where I can't walk exactly as I did in the past. I mean they can not walk at all.
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Guys, do not get this surgery. If you wanna talk to a reasonable person, I suggest listening to Alu
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You all need to ignore Crimson.
Crimson lengthened 7+cm in ONE SEGMENT.
He went to a bad doctor and he also did barely any physical therapy during his lengthening.
This surgery should be done at the best doctors, while in top pre-op physical shape.
You cannot blame and tell other people to rethink this surgery when you yourself did not think before getting it done. 7+cm in one segment is stupid and ridiculous especially in the tibias which we know the limit should be 4cm. You have no one but yourself to blame and should stop the bias posting.
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I think the limit for tibias is 6cm, after that is is dangerous.
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In terms of limits, even if one individual is different from another (and once again it's all relative), I couldn't agree more with Midnightninja: in the diaries here we have 2 examples: Wannabegiant and OldieButGoldie. 2 stories of succesful recovery and outcome. Why? The first lengthened about 4cm in the tibia, the second about 5cm in femurs. 4/5=0.80....These are the safe limits... all the others who have lengthened more than about 4cm in tibias and more than about 5cm in femurs have always reported something negative, if they don't have disappeared, in terms of new biomechanics, balance, proportions, dorsiflexion, etc.... but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me...of course if you do both segments you can do a bit more because you keep in balance the crural index....it's a personal choice, if you wanna do 10cm in 1 segment, do it, then post a pic of your new proportions and a video while running, please, so that it could help potential LLeners.
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Kilo increased 6 cm and is well.
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midnight, i was actually told to reply to you by another member that actually had ll
wanna know what they said?? They agreed with me. They will not post here, but I will
You have no idea of what you are talking about, and you seem a bit confused. First off, you don't know me, or anything about me. We have never spoken or met, and you don't know anyone that knows me.
I've met exactly 1 member from this forum, and it was not you
Your logic escapes me. I can't tell others to make a mistake because I made a mistake??? Very interesting logic there.
You can make excuse after excuse, but that's because you're deluded
Do you realize I'm actually doing better than alot/ most? people that had the surgery. You try to portray me as a bad case , when in actuality, while I'm not in the top 10%, I'm certainly not in the bottom 50%
I can walk without a limp, and have no pain... I actually did do pt, though pt does not do that much. It's 90+ % genetic.
Look at the diaries. Sweden has constant pain. Rgkey has severe deformities. One of paley's patients suffered a severe fracture while lengthening. Other patients can not walk at all
These are all facts which no one can deny
Have you ever wondered why almost no one posts videos??? How many patients have posted videos of themselves skipping down stairs???
I could post a video now of myself walking, and say " hey guys, look at me, doing great"
No one would notice anything out of the ordinary, yet I refuse to lie to potential patients.
If you think that voluntarily breaking healthy legs, then stretching them even 4 cm will not impact your functionality, then I put you in the same category as evolution deniers.
You all need to ignore Crimson.
Crimson lengthened 7+cm in ONE SEGMENT.
He went to a bad doctor and he also did barely any physical therapy during his lengthening.
This surgery should be done at the best doctors, while in top pre-op physical shape.
You cannot blame and tell other people to rethink this surgery when you yourself did not think before getting it done. 7+cm in one segment is stupid and ridiculous especially in the tibias which we know the limit should be 4cm. You have no one but yourself to blame and should stop the bias posting.
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I will agree with this post in 1 aspect
anyone thinking they can do 6 or more cm on tibias or femurs should be prepared for complications
I don't agree though that even 4 cm is safe. My evidence is patients here that had severe complications before 4 cm
Is 4 cm safer? Yes. is it safe?. No
In terms of limits, even if one individual is different from another (and once again it's all relative), I couldn't agree more with Midnightninja: in the diaries here we have 2 examples: Wannabegiant and OldieButGoldie. 2 stories of succesful recovery and outcome. Why? The first lengthened about 4cm in the tibia, the second about 5cm in femurs. 4/5=0.80....These are the safe limits... all the others who have lengthened more than about 4cm in tibias and more than about 5cm in femurs have always reported something negative, if they don't have disappeared, in terms of new biomechanics, balance, proportions, dorsiflexion, etc.... but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me...of course if you do both segments you can do a bit more because you keep in balance the crural index....it's a personal choice, if you wanna do 10cm in 1 segment, do it, then post a pic of your new proportions and a video while running, please, so that it could help potential LLeners.
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RGKEY is probably the worst example since he did 9cm tibia lengthening....
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Rgkey did a lot
swden did less, and I won't say names here, but others did even less and suffered severe complications way before 6 cm
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Depends also on the length of you tibia, is not the same a 180 cm person lengthening 6 cm than one of 150 cm lengthening the same, you shouldnt pass the 20 per cent of the lenght of the bone.
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Thanks for your intellectual honesty Crimsontide.
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What complications would you possibly have if u do just 4cm precice femur with a good DR? I can't see any problems happening unless a freak a accident occurs...
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Onemorefoot, the 20% rule is a myth, a myth that has a meaning untill it remains enclosed in your mind dreaming about LL to justify your goals, but it doesn't apply to the individual, unique and unrepeatable reality of LL.
Consider for example Penguinn's femur length (sorry Penguin if I take your data as example, but in few diaries there are the right measures of the limbs) of 42,6cm...42,6*0.2=8,52cm....so what would this rule imply?...
Consider instead of not going too far from your original crural index for your new biomechanics, that you will experiment only at the end of the process, and about which before LL you have only an idea in your mind, even if this idea seems perfect to you....wait reality....
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I agree with you applesandoranges...
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Apoxy. People with lengthening done all over the scale have recovered differently depending on luck, the pre op. Prep, doctor and method used, there post op. work put in.
Recovery is more affected by soft tissues and muscle fibers lengthening then total amount of bone lengthened (assuming reasonable amount) and this is dependent on how flexible you are, how fast you lengthen etc. I don't understand how the crural index has anything to do with your success.
Assume you lengthen 2cm at 3mm per day. How well will your recovery be.
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I assume it is important for your new biomechanics (there is an article I have cited), there will be a reason why it has a certain value in your body, nevertheless I realize that I've written too much. I'm not entitled since I'm only a potential LLener, me too with my "perfect" conservative ideas in my mind but without a personal LL experience, at the end of which from perfect they could appear wrong. Like talking about how to drive a car, having just read a book. It's better for me to shut up, all my ideas and thoughts have been already written in my previous posts.
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I'll add that until 5cms of internal femoral lengthening I had zero problems. If that were my goal, I'd call my lengthening flawless. My right leg's knee bending issue has just begun at 2". 2-3" is also where my proportions will go from fine to a bit off(without clothes). However my doctor hasn't told me I need to stop, I'm doing intense physio and the lack of perfect proportions is worth it to me for the 3rd inch.
Also most people that did LL seem to think it was a great decision.
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3741.msg57002#msg57002
Assume you lengthen 2cm at 3mm per day. How well will your recovery be.
3mm per day is insane.
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I have read your diary twice. I have seen that you post negatively on here due to your surgery mistakes, sharing your story is one thing but posting negatively due to your mistakes is wrong.
You advise people not to get this surgery when you failed to do this surgery safely. You lengthened the upper most limit on your tibias and you went to a bad doctor while doing no physical therapy.
Here is a video of someone who is running after LL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukwz5iYerJ0
This is an extensive and dangerous surgery, this surgery should not be done if you don't have the funds to go to the best dr. There are people on here who says "I have 20k who should I go to?" this is wrong.
As much as we hate to read this, money should not define your doctor. You should go to the best dr and save for it.
I will reiterate what I have said, you're telling people not to do this surgery when you botched yourself from the beginning by neglecting physical therapy, going to a crap dr, and lengthening too much on one segment.
I myself have the funds to go and get 4cm done at this moment. I plan on doing 3cm on femurs and tibias because I am a smart and unlike you, I know doing 7+cm on one bone is stupid.
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you seem to not notice the difference bewtween an anecdote and a scientific study
One video means almost nothing. There are always exceptions,.
I also said I could post a video of myself, and no one would think there was anything wrong with me if I did not tell them how I feel when I walk
I still have not seen even 1 video of an ll patient running down a flight of stairs. Anyone that has done ll will tell you going downstairs is the one ability that is most difficult to regain
Am I saying that no ll patient can skip down stairs? No, but if I had to guess, I'd be very confident that % is well below 30%
For some people, perhaps they don't mind not being as they once were, but I'm not one of them
Sweden is another one that will tell you what I just said. Some people are ok with just having very basic functionality, but I suspect most are not
It's a very hard thing to admit that you've most likely permanently harmed your body, which accounts for members not regretting their surgery,( Rgkey will tell you it was a fantastic decision, so I don't put much stock into patient satisfaction surveys) but that's the way it is for most ll patients
I have read your diary twice. I have seen that you post negatively on here due to your surgery mistakes, sharing your story is one thing but posting negatively due to your mistakes is wrong.
You advise people not to get this surgery when you failed to do this surgery safely. You lengthened the upper most limit on your tibias and you went to a bad doctor while doing no physical therapy.
Here is a video of someone who is running after LL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukwz5iYerJ0
This is an extensive and dangerous surgery, this surgery should not be done if you don't have the funds to go to the best dr. There are people on here who says "I have 20k who should I go to?" this is wrong.
As much as we hate to read this, money should not define your doctor. You should go to the best dr and save for it.
I will reiterate what I have said, you're telling people not to do this surgery when you botched yourself from the beginning by neglecting physical therapy, going to a crap dr, and lengthening too much on one segment.
I myself have the funds to go and get 4cm done at this moment. I plan on doing 3cm on femurs and tibias because I am a smart and unlike you, I know doing 7+cm on one bone is stupid.
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It's a give and take crimsone... You were just oblivious to how much you were supposed to give. Some people are ok with less agility, athletisism or whatever. You arent (and there is nothing wrong with that). But from here to say that this surgery is disastrous is another thing.
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7 in tibia is madness no way I ever do this , midnight is a smart boy he will do fine . I am like him actually I am aiming for 4+3 or 4,5 +3,5 I will see with Paley when it will be my time .
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I believe if your young and healthy up to 8 cm on tibia is possible. Many things decides wether you're a good candidate or not. Such as muscle attachments, Achilles' tendon position, bone density...
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is it possible to lengthen the Femur and Tibia during the same surgery? I would would prefer to do like 7-8cm on both and not have to come back for more after a year.
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is it possible to lengthen the Femur and Tibia during the same surgery? I would would prefer to do like 7-8cm on both and not have to come back for more after a year.
No respectable doctor would allow that.
If you want to win a year but never be able to walk again normally (if you could even walk) then you really should avoid LL.
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No respectable doctor would allow that.
If you want to win a year but never be able to walk again normally (if you could even walk) then you really should avoid LL.
I thought I saw quadrilateral lengthening advertised in Paley web page when I was researching LL.
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Well I saw that on Paleys website it said you can do Femur first and 3 weeks later the tibia. I want about 15cm height increase in total.
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Stupid question but are the rods later removed?
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Did Anyone messure there pre LL ratio?
If Yes- how?
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Hello, I am new
I followed this forum some months ago but never speak-out because my case is rally unique. I though I am shorter than any one here with just 147cm, it's mean I hopeless to be average height with my current condition (160-165 cm for women in Vietnam I believe) . I am 32 years old and can't do LL until next 2 years because some special reasons. At the soonest time to do LL, I will be 34 or 35, the age which not really suitable to do LL, so 1 LL might be maximum. My family are not agree with my decision because from their perception there is nothing wrong with my life: a loving, tall and handsome husband, 2 kids, and a good position at work. All my friend and my family can't understand why I need to do this crazy trip with a lot of risks and unbearable painful, and I can be dismissed from current work after at least 10 months proceduce. But they are not me to understand how I feel.
I heard about LL several years ago but I worry about permanent long-term harm so I did not seriously study about this. Thank for this forum, now I gain some confident and decide to do LL even it seem quite late. Pain is the least to be concerned to me. To me pain, time and risk is worth if I can gain 7-9 cm within single surgery, then I will be 154-156 cm)
Suppose I do tibias LL with 8 cm by LON ( no other option except LON in Vietnam). You might think I am crazy. I think that too. But I saw some people in this forum do 8, 9 cm on tibias. They have some trouble since they took out the frame too soon, or they didn't do practices properly. So if I take care my LL well enough I hope it will be alright. Proportion is not st I worry about because I still look ok with 15 cm height heel. I suppose I have very short leg then. I am not sportive much, so reduce athletic is not much problem itself. I just need to be work, run or do slight sport normally not need to be supper then it will be ok
I considering do AT release. Obviously, 7-9 cm on tibias needed AT release operation, as far as I know. I saw some of you very criticize this also. But this is my final hope. I wonder how many chance I will have trouble of cannot perform walking normally or even painful if I do ATL followed up tibias LL? Is there anyone here have no problem after the same procedure?
Please give me your frankly advice, especially if you are or knowing some one who did the same as my plan, and share with me their result.
Thank alot
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At your age bone formation is not that good. In my opinion dont put in risk And just enjoy your Life. But you want this, better go for the pure external way, if you have bad bone formation the gap can be compressed. If you go for LON, there can be more complications And if you get some misalignment you have to be operated again. The amount you want is quite a lot for your height. ATL is maybe the worst choice one can do, becuase your feet Will feel strange forever. But if you want 7.5, ATL may have to be done. If I can ask you, where are you from?
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im turning 20, is this a good age? and yes Im done growing, I have a huge beard :D
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At your age bone formation is not that good. In my opinion dont put in risk And just enjoy your Life. But you want this, better go for the pure external way, if you have bad bone formation the gap can be compressed. If you go for LON, there can be more complications And if you get some misalignment you have to be operated again. The amount you want is quite a lot for your height. ATL is maybe the worst choice one can do, becuase your feet Will feel strange forever. But if you want 7.5, ATL may have to be done. If I can ask you, where are you from?
Thank Onemorefoot for replying me
I am from Vietnam.
I thousand time whisper to myself that I should accept my height as I am now. But you know, we just live once. I sure I will feel regret whole remain of my life because I didnot do any think to improve it , but I will also regret if I destroy my life by making a risky decision at my age. What should I do?
As far as I know, LON is lengthen over nail. It means chance to misalignment the bone will be very very small. The nail intramedullary will help to make sure the bone align properly . LATN and pure external LL which let the bone develop freely so the chance of misalignment increase. Is this correct or I understand wrong? An advantage I see with LATN over LON is that the intramedullary nail put inside after lengthening can be of a larger diameter than the one put inside the bone canal during lengthening with LON, so consolidation will be quicker in LATN and less harmful for bone development.
I rather go with LATN but in Vietnam, LON is more feasible and practical because doctor just know about LATN but never practiced it.
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Hi there,
You can do cross lengthening in Russia with either Dr. Solomon or Dr. Kulesh like myself. Basically in the first procedure they lengthen the right femur and the left tibia and in the second procedure they lengthen the opposite. The reason for this is because the external method could be extremely irritating if you have to large cages only on the femur bone. Russia is also relatively cheap if we were to compare it to the doctors in europe let alone the U.S. Rent is not too expensive and the doctors are very supportive as far as I have heard. Also note that these doctors have succesfully done many operations before so I would say you are in safe hands. I know that being extremely short sucks. I can only imagine your situation. So if you are short on time/money then Russia is a safe bet my friend otherwise you can spend more and do it in europe. Dr. Kulesh could lengthen 15cm for you if you wish. A member on these forums did the same. If you want I could give you dr. Kulesh' email.
Hope you fet what you want bud.
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Im at 5.5 cm and still no nerve pains. Im only on paracetamol and lyrica 75 mg (stopped tramadol for a week). I will listen to my body and stop if it gets too pain..
I know this is a long time ago but how has the recovery went for you like can you run and walk without a problem
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Do you guys think it's better to do 8cm in Tibias alone or do cross lengthening and gain 9-10cm in both tibia and femur? I do fantasize about being much taller but then again I don't want to get 'too' greedy.
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Hey muse.. and hello everyone here. I’m planing to do PRECICE surgery, from Turkey. Can somebody tell me here, where I can find the most cheapest PRECICE method on this planet? :D
I want to add 3.5 inches femur.
Unfortunately, I believe the maximum for the PRECICE rod is 8cm, which is about 3.15 inches.
Do you guys think it's better to do 8cm in Tibias alone or do cross lengthening and gain 9-10cm in both tibia and femur? I do fantasize about being much taller but then again I don't want to get 'too' greedy.
It is generally easier to add more length on the femur, also, there was a study posted here correlating long tibias with certain late-life issues.
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Do you guys think it's better to do 8cm in Tibias alone or do cross lengthening and gain 9-10cm in both tibia and femur?
Overdozer did 7.5 cm in both tibias and femurs (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1671.0) at 167 cm, so you never know, but 8 cm for your tibias sounds bad on paper. You really won't know what your body can handle until you start lengthening.
If you can afford it, cross-lengthening sounds like the more reasonable way to go. You could do something like 6 cm tibias and 7 cm femurs, that'd be within a safe range for both sets of segments. And who knows, maybe your doctor will say that you can lengthen a little more than that.
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Do you guys think it's better to do 8cm in Tibias alone or do cross lengthening and gain 9-10cm in both tibia and femur? I do fantasize about being much taller but then again I don't want to get 'too' greedy.
For me personally I’d say cross lengthening for example if you do say 5cm + 5cm it would keep your leg proportions even also you would have noticeably longer upper legs that’s why I’m personally thinking about cross lengthening
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I agree with everyone, it's not so much the money thats the issue but I'm worried about not being able to handle 2 surgeries of lengthening, menatally speaking.
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I agree with everyone, it's not so much the money thats the issue but I'm worried about not being able to handle 2 surgeries of lengthening, menatally speaking.
I'm going quadrilateral and had the same worry about pain and mobility.
Pain: look into my research on alternatives to painkillers (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5285)
Mobility/independence: I reasoned that I won't have use of my legs after one surgery for 6 months, so if I add another one 3 weeks into the 6 months, it won't make much of a difference. I've read two QLL patient diaries (IAmReady and Vitruvius) and it wasn't clear how much worse things became after the second surgery.
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more than 6cm on femurs starts looking disproportional and more than 4cm on tibias.
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I see that Paley offers Stryde for internal tibias. what are the advantages of doing tibia internally?
I am a female, small-boned, i am scared that there are no small enough STRYDE nails to do tibia internally. i dont wnat to do femurs cause they are already very long for my body (short torso and tibias). but i want to use STRYDE cause it is the only thing that justifies for me doing this procedure at Paley's ($$$$$)/in my 30th (finally can afford it)
please advise
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what are the advantages of doing tibia internally?
Much more comfortable to sleep with than external fixators, reduced risk of infection, can be completely hidden under pants/tights.
External fixators are weight-bearing, but with STRYDE, that's also the case - if there are thin enough nails for your tibias.
I am a female, small-boned, i am scared that there are no small enough STRYDE nails to do tibia internally
Have you asked Dr. Paley what is the smallest diameter STRYDE nail that they have?
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I'm sorry OYG but I have to contradict you
It is generally known that for tibias the best method is External with Ilizarov
It is way less invasive than putting nails inside a bone
Infections with Externals when occur can be easilly treated with local meds due to being external infections while infections with Internals are way more dangerous and can lead to osteomyelitis and in the worst case amputation
Ilizarov also allows to do more accurate corrections of misalignments
The best method for tibias is external and anyone denying it is simply wrong
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If the best method for tibia is Ilizarov (external), then why Paley is not offering it? Why he is doing internal only for tibia?
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I'm sorry OYG but I have to contradict you
It is generally known that for tibias the best method is External with Ilizarov
It is way less invasive than putting nails inside a bone
Infections with Externals when occur can be easilly treated with local meds due to being external infections while infections with Internals are way more dangerous and can lead to osteomyelitis and in the worst case amputation
Ilizarov also allows to do more accurate corrections of misalignments
The best method for tibias is external and anyone denying it is simply wrong
I disagree. The external frames makes it very painful to do stretching exercises/therapy. With internal, you don't have the pins pulling at your flesh while you are stretching. Sure the infections can easily be treated but they are still painful.
Also, I may be ignorant on this, but I don't think the external frames allow rate control/reversal like Precice.
I can't comment about the likelihood of osteomyelitis with Precice.
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I disagree. The external frames makes it very painful to do stretching exercises/therapy. With internal, you don't have the pins pulling at your flesh while you are stretching. Sure the infections can easily be treated but they are still painful.
Also, I may be ignorant on this, but I don't think the external frames allow rate control/reversal like Precice.
I can't comment about the likelihood of osteomyelitis with Precice.
From experience external tibias were fairly comfortable. Pins werent painful at all. I did get a minor infection but was cured fast with antibiotics. Also external frames do allow controlled lengthening and reversal as well. If we talk about external frames on femur then yes thats very painful atleast it was for me and i had alot of pin cutting and pulling but tibia was a breaze to lengthen. Hardest part was getting rid of ballerina foot but that would be hard with internal as well.
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From experience external tibias were fairly comfortable. Pins werent painful at all. I did get a minor infection but was cured fast with antibiotics. Also external frames do allow controlled lengthening and reversal as well. If we talk about external frames on femur then yes thats very painful atleast it was for me and i had alot of pin cutting and pulling but tibia was a breaze to lengthen. Hardest part was getting rid of ballerina foot but that would be hard with internal as well.
My goodness! You did external femur? I heard thats painful AF. Hope you are doing well! Do you happen to know what makes external femurs particularly painful?
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This thread is outdated. For multiple doctors
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There've been no long term studies linking LL to athritis, and except maybe LON, how?
Hey penguin. You said LL is linked with Arthiritis EXCEPT for LON, how is that? Does LON offer some advantages over any other type of lengthening?
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From what I have read in various sources, the amount of lengthening one can add to height safely depends on many factors such as muscle flexibility, initial bone height, the patience of the patient etc. But for the majority of people, 7-8 cm is possible. Experiencing so called "ballerina syndrome" or difficulty in movement is frequently seen in people who go over 5-6 cm but that is a temporary condition and is absolutely curable with physio and exercises ;)
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Yes the Rod's are removed about 6month to 1.5 year after the lengthening is completed. I know guys that have never removed their rods. But can you imagine? Kind of like wolverine... Jamee
I couldn't wait to get mine removed, I had them in for a full year and a half.
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Is Betz a deceiver?He told me he had lengthened like that much for YEARS........
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Is Betz a deceiver?He told me he had lengthened like that much for YEARS........
I have heard a ton of things about Betz on these forums! Good and Bad. I know he has been doing this surgery for a long time now. I wonder what his success rate is... hmm
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I have heard a ton of things about Betz on these forums! Good and Bad. I know he has been doing this surgery for a long time now. I wonder what his success rate is... hmm
I think bad things about him came out just because he exaggerated adopted elongating amount.That sounds even like a daydream....
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I am a Betz patient and am happy with the results so far. I’m in the consolidation phase now. While in Germany, I met some former Betz patients and they were both very happy with their results. I like Dr. Betz as a person and can recommend him.
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I have heard a ton of things about Betz on these forums! Good and Bad. I know he has been doing this surgery for a long time now. I wonder what his success rate is... hmm
Me also. It would be amazing if we could somehow build a consortium of verifiable info as it's just so hard to know what to believe with some doctors/diaries on this forum.
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Hey! I’m 149cm female and interested in LL at 32! I don’t think u should do external method bcz that will be extremely painful. I will be choosing precise if I go for it as it comes in thin nails and can bear some weight if you’re thin & short. I weigh 49 kg & I think precise can handle upto 68 kg? So if you weigh less pick precise. I’m unmarried n worried my life may come to a still if I get LL & God forbid recovery takes long. Although bone formation at this age is fine & deteriorates after 50s.
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Hey! I’m 149cm female and interested in LL at 32! I don’t think u should do external method bcz that will be extremely painful. I will be choosing precise if I go for it as it comes in thin nails and can bear some weight if you’re thin & short. I weigh 49 kg & I think precise can handle upto 68 kg? So if you weigh less pick precise. I’m unmarried n worried my life may come to a still if I get LL & God forbid recovery takes long. Although bone formation at this age is fine & deteriorates after 50s.
Great - and congratulations on your decision! Are you considering femur or tibia? Just remember to eat healthy and exercise/stretch a lot before AND during lengthening - you'll do great! :)
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Hey! I’m 149cm female and interested in LL at 32! I don’t think u should do external method bcz that will be extremely painful. I will be choosing precise if I go for it as it comes in thin nails and can bear some weight if you’re thin & short. I weigh 49 kg & I think precise can handle upto 68 kg? So if you weigh less pick precise. I’m unmarried n worried my life may come to a still if I get LL & God forbid recovery takes long. Although bone formation at this age is fine & deteriorates after 50s.
Cheers friend!
Well I don't know about the precise weitght bearing, but you can message a doctor via email to make sure.
Well, it depends at your goal to be honest. But 20% of the total size of the bone is the max, usually. You can get only 8cm with one surgery and 8-16cm with two surgeries, but it depends at the lentgh pprogram you choose. Therés no rule for it. Beacause it mostly depends at your body conditions and health, if you're healthy and really flexible, the rehab should take less time. I would say that it takes 2 years to fully recover, trhough what I read.
But please, email doctors and ask them about it, emailing is free :)
Hope the other users come here to help!
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Honestly, goals are one thing. Your suffering tolerance and function recovery is another. Lengthening past 6cm will feel quite different than the first 3cm. If your body says stop, then you should, or you will likely never return to normal functions without a follow-up surgery.
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Honestly, goals are one thing. Your suffering tolerance and function recovery is another. Lengthening past 6cm will feel quite different than the first 3cm. If your body says stop, then you should, or you will likely never return to normal functions without a follow-up surgery.
This is the correct answer.
Personally I am doing 5cm. It's not worth the risk and long-term work you need to put into your body to recover.
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This is the correct answer.
Personally I am doing 5cm. It's not worth the risk and long-term work you need to put into your body to recover.
How much easier & less risky is it to recover from doing 5 cm vs doing more than that? I know that Dr. Donghoon Lee has said that going over 5 cm leads to more serious strength / ability losses, but it would be nice to see supporting evidence of better recovery / less complications in the form of patient diaries and studies, etc.
-Hercules
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How much easier & less risky is it to recover from doing 5 cm vs doing more than that? I know that Dr. Donghoon Lee has said that going over 5 cm leads to more serious strength / ability losses, but it would be nice to see supporting evidence of better recovery / less complications in the form of patient diaries and studies, etc.
-Hercules
Yeah apparently from reading diaries and YouTube vids, on the femurs the first 3-4cm is very doable and it starts to get exponentially more difficult past around 5-6cm. That’s why I’m aiming for 5-6cm when I do it hopefully. But if your body can handle it and it’s safe, then you can do more. Listening to ur body is very important.
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UNOFFICIAL GRAPH SHOWING HOW DIFFICULT LENGTHENING GETS AS YOU GAIN LENGTH (in CM) (LINK AT BOTTOM):
Below is a link to a "generalized and unofficial graph that shows how difficult lengthening gets as you gain length." The graph is from the patient diary of one of Dr. Assayag's patients. The patient says that the graph is "based on the reports of experts in the leg lengthening field, specifically the doctors, physical therapists, and actual leg lengthening patients who have described the difficulty levels based on the length. Of course it doesn’t apply to everyone, but this is a general overview." You can see that GRAPH in the patient's diary here:
https://heightjourney.wordpress.com/2021/04/23/day-36-end-of-week-5-journey-getting-tougher-3-15cm-1-24-inch/
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Seems like Dr.Betz being devoted into making jokes?10-12cm in one operation?
Alright what I've heard is that it's just a piece of fake news and one friend in my Wechat group paid a visit to Betz and it was a coincidence that he asked the question about lengthening amount recommend and Betz's answer was '5-6cm in tibias and 7-8cm in femurs'.
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Hey guys, I am a 5'3" male. I am looking to get to the 5' 6.5" general height. I would want to do both femurs and tibias for good proportions and safety as it seems that 5cm (about 2 inches) is the safety limit to extending a bone. I was considering 2 inches in the femurs and another 1.5 in the tibias. Would this be a good option?
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Hey guys, I am a 5'3" male. I am looking to get to the 5' 6.5" general height. I would want to do both femurs and tibias for good proportions and safety as it seems that 5cm (about 2 inches) is the safety limit to extending a bone. I was considering 2 inches in the femurs and another 1.5 in the tibias. Would this be a good option?
Totally safe.But you have to be warned against nails being called back and for instance,now Indian surgeons cannot provide intramedullary rods for patients and you have to buy rods through companies.
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Is simultaneous/sequential quadrilateral lengthening worth it, heard there is more risk for complications? And who would be the better option, Dr. Donghoon Lee or Dr. Parihar for it?
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Totally safe.But you have to be warned against nails being called back and for instance,now Indian surgeons cannot provide intramedullary rods for patients and you have to buy rods through companies.
Is simultaneous/sequential quadrilateral lengthening worth it, heard there is more risk for complications? And who would be the better option, Dr. Donghoon Lee or Dr. Parihar for it?
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Is simultaneous/sequential quadrilateral lengthening worth it, heard there is more risk for complications? And who would be the better option, Dr. Donghoon Lee or Dr. Parihar for it?
I said Indian surgeons cannot provide rods anymore and absolutely Dr.Donghoon Lee is the better opinion
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Hello, everybody,
I am new here, so please be patient with any mistake or inconvenience.
I think I am in the topic about the recommended/indicated/safest amount of limb lengthening.
According to my previous research, a fundamental item to evaluate that is the starting point, that is, the original lenght of the bone. I don't understand why doctors don't include this variable in their information. Are they all a bit commercial or isn't this item not that important? It real seems to be relevant, at least from a common sense point of vue. It's "bad" because very short people like me (152cm) will be candidates to less lengthening, but anatomy and physiology are not made of wishful thanking.
The maximum safe lengthening amount I read was 20% of initial lenght. This is to be taken into account together with other things, like bone density, flexibility, etc.
What's your opinion and information on this? Have you questioned the doctors?
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I said Indian surgeons cannot provide rods anymore and absolutely Dr.Donghoon Lee is the better opinion
Lee is only better option than Parihar if you want to pay 2 to 3 times the price for a doctor with over decade less experience just so you can eat Korean noodles in a shiny hospital.
I used to consider Lee but researched and now believe if you can afford Lee you should just go to Parihar and use that extra money to stay in the luxury Mumbai hotels that have mostly international visitors.
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Im 1,65 male; would u guys do 6cm or 7 cm in femur? Is the additional cm worth?
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Im 1,65 male; would u guys do 6cm or 7 cm in femur? Is the additional cm worth?
7 cm is generally going to be fine in the femurs, but only your doctor can make that decision.
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Do you know what the advantage/disadvantages of supra vs infra?
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I wish growing 3.5 or 4 inch could be risk free :'(
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Femur max 9cm safe 7cm / Tibia max 7cm safe 6 cm (except for flexible and tall people they may exceed these figures)
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With consistent and professional therapy throughout the lengthening process, along with good PT-Patient-Dr communication for pain management , slowing the rate of lengthening and dedication to stretching you should be able to achieve 8cm in the femurs. There are many options available to safely achieve 8 cm but its hard work and dedication.
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With consistent and professional therapy throughout the lengthening process, along with good PT-Patient-Dr communication for pain management , slowing the rate of lengthening and dedication to stretching you should be able to achieve 8cm in the femurs. There are many options available to safely achieve 8 cm but its hard work and dedication.
Given how hard it is to achieve 8cm and the amount of resistance from your body like it is screaming at you to stop lengthening would you consider it a sign that pushing through to that point is bad for your body long term?
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lmao several of Buldu and Betz's patients did 11 on femurs all the time
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even a guy called fivetenneeded2016 did more than 20 cm but in small amounts for 3 or more segments
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2870
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lmao several of Buldu and Betz's patients did 11 on femurs all the time
Lots of peeps do it. Few talk about it.