Limb Lengthening Forum

Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Patients Experiences => Topic started by: DoingItForMe on April 28, 2015, 11:09:08 PM

Title: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 28, 2015, 11:09:08 PM
I'm about to have my consultation next week with Dr. Paley, so I decided it's time to start my diary.

The reason why I'm starting my diary is because I figured that many of you will probably not want to pay the $1,050 ($750 for consultation and $300 for X-Ray) to meet with Dr. Paley. But since I'm about to, leave your questions here and I'll ask him. His assistants sent me a FAQ from Dr. Paley, so I'll answer some of the questions based on his FAQ if it's already there. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to paste the whole FAQ here, so I'll just stick with that for now.

The X-ray is one day and the consultation is the following day. So you probably want to stay at a hotel in between days. Hotel for a day is probably $80-$100.

Here's the FAQ about me personally to preempt your questions:

Age: 26-30 (I won't give my exact age because it might reveal my identity, sorry)
Gender: Male
Starting height: 165 cm (5'5")
Starting weight: 154 lbs (might change when surgery day comes - I'm slightly overweight on purpose, because I want to have more soft tissue when the surgery comes. I will ask Dr. Paley if this is smart when the time comes.)
Wingspan: 170 cm (5'7")
Planned height: 173 cm (5'8") - 8 cm (3") increase
Starting flexibility: Standing straight up, I can touch the floor with the palms of my hand and still have a few cm of some slack left. I can't do a split, but if I sit in a V shape, my legs can split apart approximately 130 degrees. I'm capable of putting my legs behind my head. I can sit with my butt between my feet and knees bent and lean all the way back without a problem. Lying down with one leg straight up, I can form a 90 degrees angle without a problem.

How I'm paying for it: I'm self-made. I started coding apps after I read some poor person's autobiography about how he made millions from coding apps. One of the apps I wrote became very successful very quickly and is still successful (I will not say which one, because I'm not here to promote my business and because I don't want to reveal my identity). I expect all of the costs to add up to around $90,000-$100,000 (judging by other patient diaries from Dr. Paley). I plan to get my IT bands released. The financial loss and 6 months of not working much isn't a big deal to me.

Who I told about this surgery: My family and a few friends close to me who I trust to keep a secret. Nobody else. I learned from reading other people's diaries to not tell anyone, because supposedly this surgery is frowned upon by society. I don't need that kind of lack of support from people whose opinion I don't care about. So I will tell nobody else. A few years ago, I told a few close friends that I was considering it, and they were all against it and thought I was crazy for even considering it. The people who I've told that I'm actually doing it are also against it, but will support me if I go through with it.

Why I'm doing this: As my username implies, I'm doing this for me because I'm not 100% happy with the way I look. I look short and stumpy. I work out, but I'm not super cut or lean or anything like that. This is not for any other person besides myself. Two years ago, I was actually going to go to Dr. Betz for LL because I wanted 10 cm. But then I decided that I didn't want to spend 6 months of arguably my best physical years (mid-20s) in crutches. I also learned to accept my height and stopped giving much thought about my height after a while. Now in 2015, I'm still thinking about LL, and still can't stand the way I look in the mirror. And it's worse now because I'm getting older, so I can't pretend that I'm a teenager anymore. I'm perfectly happy with everything else going on in my life. I don't even have a issue with girls, because I've been dating pretty/smart girls since high school. Once girls get to know me, they stop caring about my height. But I'm realistic when I look in the mirror. I don't look attractive at this height. So I'm doing this purely because I want to finally be happy with the way I look. It's the only aspect of my life that I'm unhappy about. I understand the risks and pain, and I still want to go through with it. When I wear my 2-inch shoe lifts, I feel great about myself and the way I look. I want this feeling to be permanent.

Previous surgeries: None. The only things I've done to myself is Lasik and braces. Both of these corrected things that I wasn't too happy about in my life as well. And now I'm absolutely glad I did those operations. I hope LL will have the same effect on my life.

General health: Other than a slightly higher than average blood pressure and heart rate (still within healthy limits, but my dad suffered from HBP, so I'm watching what I eat now), I'm perfectly healthy. I'm going in for an annual physical tomorrow with my family doctor to check again to make sure. I read from some other diary that I should be doing this anyway prior to surgery.

Why I chose Dr. Paley: Proximity mainly. I live in the U.S. and don't want to go to a foreign country. The other reason is because I like the idea of Precice 2 (no pain with clicking like the Betzbone). I'm also okay with just 8 cm and below, because I don't want a higher risk of long-term complications. I think 8 cm and below is still sort of safe. I also don't want only 5 cm, because honestly, that really isn't that much. And the other reason is because other people seem to recommend him as the go-to doctor (besides Dr. G in Italy and Dr. R in NY) if money isn't a big issue. I'm not affiliated with Dr. Paley or any other doctor in any way, and will report on any complications I have and how Dr. Paley dealt with them.

Proportions: I think my femurs will be disproportional compared to my short tibia after surgery. I don't plan on getting my tibias lengthened until after I'm happy with my femur surgery. But most likely, I will not do it, because I don't want to put my body at risk again for something that isn't THAT important to me. I'm also worried that my 5'7" wingspan will look short compared to a 5'10" height, and I don't want to get my arms lengthened. My plan is to just wear 2-inch shoe lifts like I've been doing for the past few years. This will make my tibs appear longer and thus will make me look proportional again. Also, I think the ideal height for a male is 5'9"-5'11" (I read this online from a study). So 2-inch shoe lifts + 3-inch LL puts me right in that sweet 5'10" spot. But I think I will already look great at 5'8" (I tested this with 3" shoe lifts). I don't want to be greedy and gain permanent knee pain from internal tibia lengthening.

Surgery date: I plan on getting my surgery in late-June/early-July, so I'll probably be quiet in May/June. I'll let you guys know when I get it when I finalize the date during my consultation (they won't let me finalize the date until after the consultation is over).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: crimsontide on April 29, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
odds of knee pain  arent that great... the more diaries i read, it seems that most people arent having many issues with knee pain
longer tibias also look better, but not a huge concern


and girls never stop caring about your height, so I think it's a good decision
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 29, 2015, 01:40:10 AM
odds of knee pain  arent that great... the more diaries i read, it seems that most people arent having many issues with knee pain
longer tibias also look better, but not a huge concern


and girls never stop caring about your height, so I think it's a good decision
Thanks for the first comment! I remember reading the statistic somewhere that about 40% of patients had knee pain after internal tibia surgery. If it isn't knee pain while walking, it's knee pain while kneeling. I don't want any of that. I don't remember reading anything about knee pain for internal femurs, so I'm going to go with internal femurs.

I'm aware that longer tibias look better, but it also takes long to stretch/recover and you also get less out of the surgery than femurs (I think 6 cm was the recommended max while femurs were 8 cm?). Don't normally wear shorts, so I think I'll be okay. I'll consider tibias after I'm done with femurs and recover fully (probably 2 years from now). Hopefully by then, there'll be something that doesn't give knee pain. Maybe external tibia? But for now, I'll be happy with 5' 8" and some shoe lifts to get to 5' 10". Shoe lifts will give me the same effect as a 2" tibia surgery without the actual surgery. I think that's a better choice for me. But shoe lifts to take me to 5'7" from 5'5" isn't that big of a difference. I still look short. Just less short. 5' 10" would be nice, and would be a dream come true.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 29, 2015, 02:00:11 AM
Congrats on starting your journey man. I think you've made a fantastic decision, and you're in the best hands possible with Dr. Paley.

5'8" is pretty decent height. I was a little over 5'5", and my final height is now 5'8" (internal femurs). I'm actually considering adding on another inch next year from just re-breaking the femurs and using the same rods already inside. My femurs will probably look pretty disproportionate at that point, but tibias just take way too long, and I don't want to do (or pay for) a second full-blown LL...and 5'9" is a height that I think I would be 100% perfectly fine with. I don't really care about proportions too much, and in clothes, long femurs are pretty easy to hide. I just slept with another girl this past weekend, told her I did LL...she said she would have never noticed had it not been for the crutches and me telling her (and obviously she saw me nked)..she was 5'6" and I was comfortably taller than her :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 29, 2015, 03:20:11 AM
Congrats on starting your journey man. I think you've made a fantastic decision, and you're in the best hands possible with Dr. Paley.

5'8" is pretty decent height. I was a little over 5'5", and my final height is now 5'8" (internal femurs). I'm actually considering adding on another inch next year from just re-breaking the femurs and using the same rods already inside. My femurs will probably look pretty disproportionate at that point, but tibias just take way too long, and I don't want to do (or pay for) a second full-blown LL...and 5'9" is a height that I think I would be 100% perfectly fine with. I don't really care about proportions too much, and in clothes, long femurs are pretty easy to hide. I just slept with another girl this past weekend, told her I did LL...she said she would have never noticed had it not been for the crutches and me telling her (and obviously she saw me nked)..she was 5'6" and I was comfortably taller than her :)
You sound happy with your new height. That's awesome to hear! Yea, I wish my final height was 5'9" instead of 5'8". But 8 cm is the max that Precice 2 will go. I'll stick with shoe lifts I guess. I read through your diary. I'm not caught up in the numbers game and don't mind not reaching 5'9". I just want to look good. I'm also worried about being limited if I don't do an IT band release, which I see in your diary that you didn't do. You said that it's a 20% decrease in athletics once I do that? I'm not so worried about losing athletic ability, because honestly, I'm not great at sports to begin with and don't plan on playing more sports in the future. If you could go back in time, would you have done the IT band release?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 29, 2015, 03:36:58 AM
You sound happy with your new height. That's awesome to hear! Yea, I wish my final height was 5'9" instead of 5'8". But 8 cm is the max that Precice 2 will go. I'll stick with shoe lifts I guess. I read through your diary. I'm not caught up in the numbers game and don't mind not reaching 5'9". I just want to look good. I'm also worried about being limited if I don't do an IT band release, which I see in your diary that you didn't do. You said that it's a 20% decrease in athletics once I do that? I'm not so worried about losing athletic ability, because honestly, I'm not great at sports to begin with and don't plan on playing more sports in the future. If you could go back in time, would you have done the IT band release?


Yeah I'm more or less happy with my new height, as it was in line with my expectations (around 7cm). I went with Dr. Guichet, and he does not do ITB releases as far as I know. I don't know if an ITB release would have made much of a difference. I personally didn't want the ITB release, as it was just one less part of my body that was tampered with. But Paley and Rozbruch do it for many patients, and they have no issues. I believe Dr. G ordered me to stop clicking when he did because my left leg was healing slowly (and it makes sense, because left leg clicks had become very painful, and I had a lot of numbness around the shin and knee area).

I was admittedly (and still am, to a degree) caught up in the numbers game because it's been so ingrained in my head that 5'8" is the absolute bare minimum that a guy should be to avoid most height discrimination. So getting to 5'8" (evening height) is great, but I'm thinking of doing a little more only as a buffer (and factoring in shrinking as I get older). I have the option of doing a femur re-break next year, and from what I know, it will be much, much faster to just bang out one more inch. But maybe I won't feel the need to do it. We shall see.

When is your surgery?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 29, 2015, 03:57:16 AM
I plan on getting my surgery in late-June/early-July. I already have time off from work planned and have someone planned to take care of me for the first month. I don't have an exact date yet, because Dr. Paley doesn't allow people to book a surgery date without a consultation first. I'll let you guys know when I finalize the date during my consultation next week.

I think programdude also didn't release his IT band, and he's having some pain, too. I wonder if this is related? Hopefully people who did and didn't have IT bands released can chime in on their experience with it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 29, 2015, 04:02:39 AM
I plan on getting my surgery in late-June/early-July. I already have time off from work planned and have someone planned to take care of me for the first month. I don't have an exact date yet, because Dr. Paley doesn't allow people to book a surgery date without a consultation first. I'll let you guys know when I finalize the date during my consultation next week.

I think programdude also didn't release his IT band, and he's having some pain, too. I wonder if this is related? Hopefully people who did and didn't have IT bands released can chime in on their experience with it.

I know ChrisIsaak had an ITB release on only one leg, and has said his legs felt the same pretty much throughout the process. From what I know Programdude is doing well, I think maybe his recovery has taken a bit longer is because 8cm is actually quite a lot. I think it's considered the "safe" limit for femurs, but it's still a pretty high amount. I personally had never planned on doing past 7cm in one procedure (but might if I do the femur re-break for another inch max), but I think you'll be fine to go to 8cm, it just may take longer to recover.

Regardless, don't worry...either way, you're in great hands with Dr. Paley!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 29, 2015, 04:59:39 AM
Thanks! Dr. Paley probably has the most experience with ITB release vs no ITB release. So I'll ask him when the x-rays are done and the flexibility tests are done. I think programdude was flexible enough that he didn't have to have ITB released. But he also started off at 5'8" (lucky dude). I'll let you know what Dr. Paley says about it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 29, 2015, 05:08:19 AM
Thanks! Dr. Paley probably has the most experience with ITB release vs no ITB release. So I'll ask him when the x-rays are done and the flexibility tests are done. I think programdude was flexible enough that he didn't have to have ITB released. But he also started off at 5'8" (lucky dude). I'll let you know what Dr. Paley says about it.

Everyone is different. My flexibility pre-op was pretty good, probably slightly above average I'd say. I was in very good shape pre-op (especially because I did Dr. G's pre-training requirements), yet I struggled to get ~7cm. I had a pretty good amount of pain from 5cm and onwards, and was told I had to stop around 7cm. I kinda feel like LL is one of those "life is like a box of chocolates" things...you can be young and in amazing shape and still really struggle with this. I also think it also helps to have a better starting height as PD did (I think that makes it a bit easier to stretch the soft tissue, which is the limiting factor for most LLs, and certainly was for me). I don't think adding on another inch or so in a year will be hard because I"ll know exactly what to expect at that point...

Keep us posted on your consultation!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: programdude on April 29, 2015, 07:18:34 AM
Just want to comment that I don't think Paley will operate on someone who doesn't get a consult first. Best of luck man!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 29, 2015, 07:46:44 AM
Just want to comment that I don't think Paley will operate on someone who doesn't get a consult first. Best of luck man!
Yup. His assistants told me the same. Are there any tips for me before I go next week? Something I should ask him when I see him?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: MiniM on April 30, 2015, 02:01:54 AM
if I book the surgery date, I'm consider about accommadation, still quit confuse about it. The hosipital will book that for u or urself? I will take the one Dr Paley recommended

And price for three month, I think if u r their patient and want to stay for months there's discount for it. but How much?

I'm from other country, do I only can use the credict card or I can apply for an account there in u.s

So many questions
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 30, 2015, 03:32:51 AM
if I book the surgery date, I'm consider about accommadation, still quit confuse about it. The hosipital will book that for u or urself? I will take the one Dr Paley recommended

And price for three month, I think if u r their patient and want to stay for months there's discount for it. but How much?

I'm from other country, do I only can use the credict card or I can apply for an account there in u.s

So many questions
If you're under 18, you can stay with other people in the same house (called the Quantum House) for $35/night. If you're over 18, you can book a hotel close-by. They have a shuttle that will take you to the hospital. Prices are around $70/night for a studio and $80/night for a one bedroom. These are discount prices that the hospital helps you get for being a patient. Otherwise, they're normally around $100/night. The hotels probably take Visa/Mastercard if you have those. I don't know who books it yet, but I do know that you have to be a patient to get discount prices on the hotels. He recommends 4 different extended-stay hotels. They all seem similar. I will find out more for you when I have a surgery date and can finally book the hotel.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 16, 2015, 06:23:33 PM
Just had the consultation last week. I also saw my family doctor two weeks ago, and I waited to update my journal until after I got back my lab results for a complete physical.

May 5th - X-ray Day
First thing I did when I got to the Paley Institute was sign in. I had already filled out and signed my forms prior to arriving. My appointment was at 2 PM, and I got the x-ray done at around 3 PM. The x-ray machine was called EOS, this was the first one in Florida. It does a fall body scan and gives high-res x-rays of the whole body. They gave me a green hospital gown and I stood for about half an hour in the x-ray machine, which was a circular cylinder looking machine with an opening for you to get it. If you were to look at the it from above, it'd look like the letter C. It stood about 8 ft high. They took only two scans. One with my legs staggered (right foot in front and left foot in back), and one without both legs together.

By 4 PM, I was out of the hospital, and I went to the outlet malls nearby and visited the Tesla dealership to pass time. All were only 10 minutes away from the hospital.

May 6th - Dr. Paley Consultation Day
The appointment was for 7:30 AM, but since I already registered myself, I came at 7:50 AM and was still okay. They don't officially open until 8 AM anyway. The first person I met was John the PA. He asked me a bunch of questions about my height and then made me stand on these wooden blocks that were 2 inches and 3 inches high. He asked how I felt standing on them. I said that I felt like I was at a normal height after standing on them. He told me that since I'm still young, I should expect a good recovery as long as I keep stretching every day: About 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the afternoon and 1 hour at night. The one hour of stretching in the afternoon will be with the PT, so it's really 2 hours of stretching on my own. It was recommended that I have someone for at least 2 weeks to help me stretch. Recommended is 4-6 weeks. I'll be having someone for 5 weeks to help me out.

About an hour later or so, Dr. Paley comes into the room and we talk about our lives. He was very interested in my life, because it's not normal for someone this young to pay for the surgery himself. Normally, it's parents paying for their kids. I explain that I was just a normal 9-5 office worker and living a normal life. But then I became a self-made millionaire app developer after I read and followed the advice from this autobiography from a successful app developer. The book's called Lifehacked and I highly recommend it as a good read even if you're not into app development - I wasn't prior to reading it. Anyway, I go to explain how my app helps people, and how I'm semi-retired and I mostly do charity work now. This part of the story is important, because later on, he helps me out with the surgery date because of my life story. I'll explain more at the end of this entry.

He has John do a flexibility test and confirmed that I needed an IT band release, because my legs don't drop when I lay on my side and make an open scissor shape with my legs. They stay straight and Dr. Paley explains that it's my IT band that's holding them up.

IT band release

In regards to the IT band, Dr. Paley explained that it shouldn't have any long-term effects. He said that after a few weeks, the area where he cuts heals up. And when he looks at the x-rays, it looks almost as if he never cut them in the first place. I asked if I'd lose any athletic ability for doing it. He said no.

Long-term effects of LL

I asked if he kept in touch with his old patients. He said that someone he operated on 26 years ago talked to him and the patient was still fine. He said that none of his previous patients have mentioned anything about arthritis or any other long-term effects. He said that since I'm in my 20s, I can expect an almost 100% chance that I'd have no long-term effects. He said that nobody in their 20s who had this operation had any long-term effects. He also explained that those with complications are usually the ones who don't follow the stretching or his advise. He said that there was one person who wouldn't return the device that stretches his nail.

What to do prior to surgery

Dr. Paley told me to start taking Silica supplements. These are mostly vitamins such as calcium and Vitamin D to promote bone growth. Seems expensive compared to other over-the-counter vitamin supplements. But Dr. Paley recommended them, so I'll be taking them. I was advised to start taking them a week before surgery. I asked if I needed to lose weight, and he said no. I have a suspicion that those with muscular legs will have a harder time with LL, so I'm going to not work out my legs prior to surgery. I hope that I'm correct with this theory. I asked him if stretching prior to the surgery will help, and he said that it probably wouldn't. He said that the effects of stretching only lasts for a few hours. I'm going to try to do some stretches anyway to get myself into a routine prior to surgery.

Precice 2.1

I was told that at around December 2014, he switched to Precice 2.1, which is an update to Precice 2.0. He said that it had better welding and was improved after his experiences with the Precice 2.0. I asked if this was the final nail version and can't be improved further. He said that things always have room for improvement, but that I shouldn't keep waiting for the next best thing, because I'd always just be waiting then. He explained that he's working on a nail that will be completely weight-bearing with much stronger material.

Finally, a nurse named Mary came in to take my vitals, such as height and weight and blood pressure, and then I was given the okay to leave. It was around 10 AM when they were all done. I tried to book my surgery date while I was still there, but the doctor was too busy to give me an available surgery date. I told them that I wanted a late June surgery.

I found out that I'm actually 164 cm from the test at Dr. Paley's office. And 164.5 cm from the test at my family doctor's office. So I'm actually 5' 4.5" - 5' 4.7". With 8 cm added, I'll be 5' 7.9", which is still very close to my realistic goal of 5' 8". Ideally, I'd like to be 5' 10" or 5' 11", but I don't think I'd want to do tibias.

Rundown of the Pricing

Paid by credit card:
$300 for x-ray
$750 for the consultation with Paley
$10,000 deposit for surgery
$159.95 for 3-month supply of Silica 1, Silica 2, and Silica Boost supplements.
$7,291.20 for 3-month stay at Hilton Homewood Suites (93-nights * $70/night + 12% tax)

Paid by wire transfer:
$75,000 surgery - Total surgery was $85,000 which includes the $5000 IT band release. Originally, it was $90,000, but I got a $5,000 discount for mentioning that I was part of the old forum, which was true.

My health insurance might have helped pay partially for these, but here's my out-of-pocket expenses:
$77 for Vitamin D test
$8 for one month supply of Vitamin D supplements

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have paid for the Vitamin D test, because my complete physical tested my Vitamin D levels. Also the nurse at St. Mary's who gave me the test, didn't bother finding a good vein. She just stabbed in a seemingly random location (not even close to the crease on my elbow), and this left that area bruised (internal bleeding).

In terms of accommodations, the Hilton Homewood Suites seems like the best choice. I was given the option of $70 for a studio suite or $80 for a one-bedroom suite. I chose a studio. It comes with free breakfast everyday and free dinner from Monday-Thursday. There is a swimming pool with a lift. The discount price is offered when you mention that you are a patient at the hospital. Normally it's $99 a night for the studio suite. Internet is free and comes with wired and wifi. Kitchen comes with a coffee pot, and free beverages. It also has pots and pans and dishes. The housekeeper can clean the dishes for you everyday. There's a $100 fee if you have a pet (up to 2 pets and 75 lb each). The $100 fee is to pay for the cleaners to clean the room after you leave, so that the room is allergy-free for the next person staying. I don't know how long I need to stay the hotel, but I was told that lengthening starts 5 days after surgery, and 80 days are needed to stretch 80 mm (1 mm per day). They told me to book the full 3 months to just be on the safe side, in case some days I might not lengthen the full 1 mm. I booked 93 nights just to be on the safe side. I was told by the hotel that I could shorten the days if I explain my situation when I arrive. We'll see how true this is. Be sure to book early, because there were only two studio suites left in my time frame when I booked.

My lab results from my family doctor found that I'm mostly healthy. My cholesterol levels are a bit high, and my doctor told me to go on a low-carb idea to lose weight. My glucose levels are also a bit high, so I'm going to cut back on my sugar intake (which coincides with my cut back on carbs anyway). I'm currently at 153 lb. Dr. Paley said that my weight is fine, but I plan on being a bit more fit prior to surgery to get into the routine of having a strict diet and ample stretching and exercising.

My surgery date is booked for June 30th with June 29th as a pre-op day. Dr. Paley actually was going to be on vacation in those two weeks. But he explained that he liked who I was, and was willing to come during his vacation to do the surgery. The next available surgery date if he didn't do that was in September. He said that most people book a year in advance to get a summer date, because summer is usually when his patients don't have school, so thus is when he is the busiest. While I don't need to go to school, the person who's taking care of me for 5 weeks is in college and is only available in July. So that's why I requested a late June surgery date, and Dr. Paley was nice enough to help me out. He explained that he meets with many prospective stature patients but rarely does he take the interest he did with me. I guess you can call it karma.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on May 16, 2015, 06:57:17 PM
It always sucks finding out that we're shorter than we had originally thought. Makes it that much harder to achieve the goal we had in mind, even if the height increase is still a great improvement. I barely made it to 5'8" (based on late evening height) from 166/5'5.3" (when I thought I was closer to 5'6"). It's why I'm strongly considering doing another (much quicker) round of LL to get about another inch for sake of completion (since the rods already inside my legs are good for about another inch, possibly a tad more).

Your accomplishments are very impressive. I'm glad Paley helped you out. Dr. Guichet was similar with me and helped me out in a number of ways because I think he took a liking to me. Go for as close to 8cm as you can get, but be warned that recovery for anything above 7cm (possibly even anything about 6.5cm) starts to get quite difficult. May not be a problem for you since you do charity work and have plenty of money (and can afford the time off), but it may get frustrating. I've been fortunate to have a situation where I can work from home a lot while my walking still improves (5 months post op now), but I don't feel great about it. I'm just thankful I've been able to keep getting paid throughout the entire process (I'm nowhere near as rich as you, even though I'm fairly well off for my age and where I live).

Best of luck to you. You'd better enjoy your last few weeks of being able to walk normally!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: tallerbetter on May 16, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
Just had the consultation last week. I also saw my family doctor two weeks ago, and I waited to update my journal until after I got back my lab results for a complete physical.

May 5th - X-ray Day
First thing I did when I got to the Paley Institute was sign in. I had already filled out and signed my forms prior to arriving. My appointment was at 2 PM, and I got the x-ray done at around 3 PM. The x-ray machine was called EOS, this was the first one in Florida. It does a fall body scan and gives high-res x-rays of the whole body. They gave me a green hospital gown and I stood for about half an hour in the x-ray machine, which was a circular cylinder looking machine with an opening for you to get it. If you were to look at the it from above, it'd look like the letter C. It stood about 8 ft high. They took only two scans. One with my legs staggered (right foot in front and left foot in back), and one without both legs together.

By 4 PM, I was out of the hospital, and I went to the outlet malls nearby and visited the Tesla dealership to pass time. All were only 10 minutes away from the hospital.

May 6th - Dr. Paley Consultation Day
The appointment was for 7:30 AM, but since I already registered myself, I came at 7:50 AM and was still okay. They don't officially open until 8 AM anyway. The first person I met was John the PA. He asked me a bunch of questions about my height and then made me stand on these wooden blocks that were 2 inches and 3 inches high. He asked how I felt standing on them. I said that I felt like I was at a normal height after standing on them. He told me that since I'm still young, I should expect a good recovery as long as I keep stretching every day: About 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the afternoon and 1 hour at night. The one hour of stretching in the afternoon will be with the PT, so it's really 2 hours of stretching on my own. It was recommended that I have someone for at least 2 weeks to help me stretch. Recommended is 4-6 weeks. I'll be having someone for 5 weeks to help me out.

About an hour later or so, Dr. Paley comes into the room and we talk about our lives. He was very interested in my life, because it's not normal for someone this young to pay for the surgery himself. Normally, it's parents paying for their kids. I explain that I was just a normal 9-5 office worker and living a normal life. But then I became a self-made millionaire app developer after I read and followed the advice from this autobiography from a successful app developer. The book's called Lifehacked and I highly recommend it as a good read even if you're not into app development - I wasn't prior to reading it. Anyway, I go to explain how my app helps people, and how I'm semi-retired and I mostly do charity work now. This part of the story is important, because later on, he helps me out with the surgery date because of my life story. I'll explain more at the end of this entry.

He has John do a flexibility test and confirmed that I needed an IT band release, because my legs don't drop when I lay on my side and make an open scissor shape with my legs. They stay straight and Dr. Paley explains that it's my IT band that's holding them up.

IT band release

In regards to the IT band, Dr. Paley explained that it shouldn't have any long-term effects. He said that after a few weeks, the area where he cuts heals up. And when he looks at the x-rays, it looks almost as if he never cut them in the first place. I asked if I'd lose any athletic ability for doing it. He said no.

Long-term effects of LL

I asked if he kept in touch with his old patients. He said that someone he operated on 26 years ago talked to him and the patient was still fine. He said that none of his previous patients have mentioned anything about arthritis or any other long-term effects. He said that since I'm in my 20s, I can expect an almost 100% chance that I'd have no long-term effects. He said that nobody in their 20s who had this operation had any long-term effects. He also explained that those with complications are usually the ones who don't follow the stretching or his advise. He said that there was one person who wouldn't return the device that stretches his nail.

What to do prior to surgery

Dr. Paley told me to start taking Silica supplements. These are mostly vitamins such as calcium and Vitamin D to promote bone growth. Seems expensive compared to other over-the-counter vitamin supplements. But Dr. Paley recommended them, so I'll be taking them. I was advised to start taking them a week before surgery. I asked if I needed to lose weight, and he said no. I have a suspicion that those with muscular legs will have a harder time with LL, so I'm going to not work out my legs prior to surgery. I hope that I'm correct with this theory. I asked him if stretching prior to the surgery will help, and he said that it probably wouldn't. He said that the effects of stretching only lasts for a few hours. I'm going to try to do some stretches anyway to get myself into a routine prior to surgery.

Precice 2.1

I was told that at around December 2014, he switched to Precice 2.1, which is an update to Precice 2.0. He said that it had better welding and was improved after his experiences with the Precice 2.0. I asked if this was the final nail version and can't be improved further. He said that things always have room for improvement, but that I shouldn't keep waiting for the next best thing, because I'd always just be waiting then. He explained that he's working on a nail that will be completely weight-bearing with much stronger material.

Finally, a nurse named Mary came in to take my vitals, such as height and weight and blood pressure, and then I was given the okay to leave. It was around 10 AM when they were all done. I tried to book my surgery date while I was still there, but the doctor was too busy to give me an available surgery date. I told them that I wanted a late June surgery.

I found out that I'm actually 164 cm from the test at Dr. Paley's office. And 164.5 cm from the test at my family doctor's office. So I'm actually 5' 4.5" - 5' 4.7". With 8 cm added, I'll be 5' 7.9", which is still very close to my realistic goal of 5' 8". Ideally, I'd like to be 5' 10" or 5' 11", but I don't think I'd want to do tibias.

Rundown of the Pricing

Paid by credit card:
$300 for x-ray
$750 for the consultation with Paley
$10,000 deposit for surgery
$159.95 for 3-month supply of Silica 1, Silica 2, and Silica Boost supplements.
$7,291.20 for 3-month stay at Hilton Homewood Suites (93-nights * $70/night + 12% tax)

Paid by wire transfer:
$75,000 surgery - Total surgery was $85,000 which includes the $5000 IT band release. Originally, it was $90,000, but I got a $5,000 discount for mentioning that I was part of the old forum, which was true.

My health insurance might have helped pay partially for these, but here's my out-of-pocket expenses:
$77 for Vitamin D test
$8 for one month supply of Vitamin D supplements

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have paid for the Vitamin D test, because my complete physical tested my Vitamin D levels. Also the nurse at St. Mary's who gave me the test, didn't bother finding a good vein. She just stabbed in a seemingly random location (not even close to the crease on my elbow), and this left that area bruised (internal bleeding).

In terms of accommodations, the Hilton Homewood Suites seems like the best choice. I was given the option of $70 for a studio suite or $80 for a one-bedroom suite. I chose a studio. It comes with free breakfast everyday and free dinner from Monday-Thursday. There is a swimming pool with a lift. The discount price is offered when you mention that you are a patient at the hospital. Normally it's $99 a night for the studio suite. Internet is free and comes with wired and wifi. Kitchen comes with a coffee pot, and free beverages. It also has pots and pans and dishes. The housekeeper can clean the dishes for you everyday. There's a $100 fee if you have a pet (up to 2 pets and 75 lb each). The $100 fee is to pay for the cleaners to clean the room after you leave, so that the room is allergy-free for the next person staying. I don't know how long I need to stay the hotel, but I was told that lengthening starts 5 days after surgery, and 80 days are needed to stretch 80 mm (1 mm per day). They told me to book the full 3 months to just be on the safe side, in case some days I might not lengthen the full 1 mm. I booked 93 nights just to be on the safe side. I was told by the hotel that I could shorten the days if I explain my situation when I arrive. We'll see how true this is. Be sure to book early, because there were only two studio suites left in my time frame when I booked.

My lab results from my family doctor found that I'm mostly healthy. My cholesterol levels are a bit high, and my doctor told me to go on a low-carb idea to lose weight. My glucose levels are also a bit high, so I'm going to cut back on my sugar intake (which coincides with my cut back on carbs anyway). I'm currently at 153 lb. Dr. Paley said that my weight is fine, but I plan on being a bit more fit prior to surgery to get into the routine of having a strict diet and ample stretching and exercising.

My surgery date is booked for June 30th with June 29th as a pre-op day. Dr. Paley actually was going to be on vacation in those two weeks. But he explained that he liked who I was, and was willing to come during his vacation to do the surgery. The next available surgery date if he didn't do that was in September. He said that most people book a year in advance to get a summer date, because summer is usually when his patients don't have school, so thus is when he is the busiest. While I don't need to go to school, the person who's taking care of me for 5 weeks is in college and is only available in July. So that's why I requested a late June surgery date, and Dr. Paley was nice enough to help me out. He explained that he meets with many prospective stature patients but rarely does he take the interest he did with me. I guess you can call it karma.

What a nice account. Thanxs bro
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on May 16, 2015, 08:31:03 PM
Thanks for the detailed recap mate! All the best!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: programdude on May 16, 2015, 11:33:51 PM
Sorry I didn't check to see your post about tips, but it looks like you did fine.

That is a very useful compilation of information for someone examining this, and looks to be accurate(though I think home woods rates change based on time of year?)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 18, 2015, 05:04:28 AM
Thanks for all the support guys. I'm going to give as much detailed account as possible whenever it's possible. YellowSpike, I don't mind not reaching 5'8" fully. I just want to be taller. At 5'4.5, I'm only taller than about 4% of adult males (20-29). At 5'8, I'll only be taller than 33% of males, but that's a big improvement! Source: https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0209.pdf If you're 5'9, you'll be taller than 42% of males. It sounds like you won't be happy unless you get that extra inch. I'd say go for it. Just go get to 5'9" and then want more again. Gaining height can be addictive, as John the PA told me. But he also said that most people only do one surgery, because they're happy with their new height already.

Sorry I didn't check to see your post about tips, but it looks like you did fine.

That is a very useful compilation of information for someone examining this, and looks to be accurate(though I think home woods rates change based on time of year?)

Homewood discount rates seem to change based on their negotiations with St. Mary's. The price I gave $70 per night started since December 2014, and apparently still is at that price.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on May 18, 2015, 12:01:54 PM
YellowSpike, I don't mind not reaching 5'8" fully. I just want to be taller. At 5'4.5, I'm only taller than about 4% of adult males (20-29). At 5'8, I'll only be taller than 33% of males, but that's a big improvement! Source: https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0209.pdf If you're 5'9, you'll be taller than 42% of males. It sounds like you won't be happy unless you get that extra inch. I'd say go for it. Just go get to 5'9" and then want more again. Gaining height can be addictive, as John the PA told me. But he also said that most people only do one surgery, because they're happy with their new height already.

Oh yeah, 5'8" is a huge improvement, and not a bad height. I just personally feel now (comparing myself to other guys as I walk around) that I'm very close to being average. And since the rods inside my legs already are good for another inch (and won't take nearly as long as this has), I'm heavily considering it. But not entirely sure I'm gonna do it yet. I want to do it, just don't know if I'll have the time.

I would never do tibias, so that would be the end of it for me.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: KrP1 on May 18, 2015, 12:47:27 PM
Oh yeah, 5'8" is a huge improvement, and not a bad height. I just personally feel now (comparing myself to other guys as I walk around) that I'm very close to being average. And since the rods inside my legs already are good for another inch (and won't take nearly as long as this has), I'm heavily considering it. But not entirely sure I'm gonna do it yet. I want to do it, just don't know if I'll have the time.

I would never do tibias, so that would be the end of it for me.

hi yellow, i really think that you are more 5´9 than 5´8 . most people use their morning height when they talk about it
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tyler_Durden on May 29, 2015, 11:30:19 PM
Hey man good luck!
I'm going to have consultation with Paley on the 21-24th of June

I wanted to ask you regarding the IT band release . You said :
"because my legs don't drop when I lay on my side and make an open scissor shape with my legs They stay straight"

If I do that they are not falling as well but thats because I'm holding my legs on purpose so if I just let them go they will fall. What does it means? I don't think I've understand how do you if you need to release your IT band?

 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Chenboy on June 05, 2015, 01:09:30 PM
Hi guy yesterday I just have consultation with parley ....
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 07, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Hey man good luck!
I'm going to have consultation with Paley on the 21-24th of June

I wanted to ask you regarding the IT band release . You said :
"because my legs don't drop when I lay on my side and make an open scissor shape with my legs They stay straight"

If I do that they are not falling as well but thats because I'm holding my legs on purpose so if I just let them go they will fall. What does it means? I don't think I've understand how do you if you need to release your IT band?
Don't try to figure this out on your own. If you're doing the consultation with Paley anyway, they will test your flexibility. Most likely, you will want your IT bands released if you are trying for 3 inches. Other than losing $5,000, Dr. Paley says that there's no long term side effects of having your IT bands released.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Chenboy on June 16, 2015, 11:47:44 PM
Are you still in Wpb.  I will go to there also I want to see you
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CBixler on July 15, 2015, 07:33:12 PM
So it has been two weeks since your surgery, I do hope you post an update soon.... Yogi Bear also seems to have vanished, I wonder what Paley is up to....
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 19, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
As you may know, the first two weeks after surgery are the most painful. Yogi and I met up in person and realized how painful the first two weeks are. She and I have been busy dealing with the pain to want to write about it. I actually changed my surgery date due to a flight delay, so to simplify things, I'll just say the days away from surgery.

But I'm feeling better now, so here's the recap:

Day 0:
Just pre op. This is just a three hour thing where you register with the hospital and sign your living will and fill out more paperwork. Before that, they first take your blood and vitals I make sure things are okay for surgery. The anesthesiologist also examines you to see which one he will use. Also asks if you want an epidural. I opted out because I heard you lose a day or two of recovery if you have it. After pre op, I returned to the hotel to check in.

Day 1:
Surgery day. Super easy. They basically make you strip and put all your clothes in a bag. Then you wear a gown. Then they inject a pain killer in your spine. Then threw put a gas mask on and start wheeling you to the operating room. You don't even leave the prep room before you fall asleep. Ten seconds later, you wake up with the sound of the nurses over you. You then realize that it wasn't ten seconds later. It's about three hours later. No pain. Just confusing and super high. Feel super happy that things went well and that I'm not dead.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Cooper on July 19, 2015, 05:00:45 PM
DoingItForMe- you are in good hands with elite team. I was just having conversation with my LL mate. We had such a great time at WPM and her mother even says so!!!

Dr. Paley has great setup. I really liked it and partly the reason I picked him over Dr. M or Dr. R. If you have a car than get out from hotel and go to perry bridge, mall or city center. Obviously after few weeks of surgery. Many places to enjoy.

We did BBQ outside the pool every weekend and party late. I am sure there are other LLers in hotel and you can regroup and enjoy. Good luck mate!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 19, 2015, 05:20:53 PM
Day 1 continued:
They roll me to my hospital bed. I'm feeling great. No pain. I can even do bicycle kicks with my legs. It was very odd, because I remember reading about how everyone else was in so much pain. Nurses kept taking my vitals every 4 hours. The main nurse (the one you call when in pain) kept asking how I was doing every 4 hours as well as gave me the drugs I needed. But they were alternating with the nurses that take vitals, so you really see a nurse every 2 hours or so. The main nurses switch every 8-12 hours or so. All nurses were very kind. I slept well that night without pain. Problem is that you get woken up every 2-4 hours because of nurses taking your vitals. Peeing wasn't a problem, because they stick a tube up your penis and you don't even know that you're peeing. It just leaks out of you. They gave me stool softeners, but I didn't poop until 5-7 days later. Didn't have any alien poop. Just looked like normal poop. I even bought milk of magnesia as suggested by other patients, but I didn't need it at all. I've been pooping everyday normally after I was discharged from the hospital.

Day 2-5:
So I stayed in the hospital for a total of 4 nights, 5 days. They started distraction since day 1 (1 mm on surgery day as well), so each day is equal to 1 mm already. Days 2-5, I felt pains ranging from 3-8. It mostly hovered around 3, because they gave me this great pain killer called toradol that they inject in your ivy. I recommend it, because it always kills the pain from 8 to almost 1-3 within 45 minutes or so. Without it, you get percocet, which is a mix of oxycodone and tylenol (acetaminophen). You only get percocet in the hospital, I believe because you can overdose on Tylenol. When discharged, you get Oxycodone. Percocet only lasts about 2-4 hours for me. So I actually ask for it every 4 hours (usually to coincide with the nurses taking my vitals, so that I only get bothered every 4 hours instead of every 2 hours). I take 2 every 4 hours. That's the max you can take. At the beginning, I didn't know that you had to request for pain killers. I thought that they just give it to you without asking. So there was a time when I didn't get any pain killers for 12 hours. This was the only time my pain level went to 8. All other times it was just 3. I have a high pain tolerance (as confirmed by my nurses), so my pain levels might be different from yours. But a 3 is like soreness after hitting the gym for too long. An 8 is like someone constantly pulling your leg after it's broken.

During this time, they also showed me some physical therapy (PT) exercises. One hour per day. It wasn't much. Mostly just moving my ankles and bending my knees to my chest and raising my legs up. They found that my flexibility was very high. Just a day or two after my surgery, I was already able to touch my ankles to my butt. Not many people can do it. Also on day 2, I was already able to walk 4 times around the hospital hallways. That was also something they haven't see before. I walked 1 time around the hallway fully during the first PT, which was about 30 hours after surgery. And then at night of day 2 (40 hours after surgery), I walked 3 times in a row around the hallway. By day 4, I was able to walk more than half a dozen times in a row around the hallways during PT, and they only stopped me because my hour of PT was over.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 19, 2015, 05:34:53 PM
Day 5:
Discharge day. Since they discharged me on a weekend, they actually made me pay $35 to hire a wheelchair-accessible taxi to bring me to the hospital. The Paley team messed up there and never reimbursed me for that. Turns out that there's actually a $5-8 roundtrip wheelchair-accessible taxi, and the hospital screwed me over by hiring the more expensive $35 one that was only one-way. They also tried to get me to buy the drugs from Garden Drugs Inc, which deliver to the hospital, but Garden Drugs Inc wanted $600+ for all drugs because my insurance wasn't accepted by them. I went with Walgreens instead, which also delivers to the hospital, and ended up paying only $300-400 for all drugs. Again, I suspect that the hospital gets some kind of cut for hiring the more expensive companies for the same services. I suggest not falling for their tricks.

Week 1 in the hotel (starting on the 5th day after surgery):
The hotel is not bad. $70 a night. Pots and induction stove suck. They barely get hot and are all warped. I don't suggest doing much cooking with it. Breakfast and dinner taste like food you get at a cheap buffet. They gave me stomachaches, because my stomach is sensitive to cheap foods.

In terms of pain, week 1 was the worst. Day 1 after discharge was the first and only time I experienced level 10 pain. They said level 10 pain is when you cry involuntarily. That's the only time I ever did. And the feeling is like if someone shot your parents in front of you and made you watch them die. Now imagine that emotional pain as a physical pain in your legs, and that's what it feels like. It's like if someone cut your leg open and decided to pull your wound apart with his salty, sweaty hands.

I realized why I was experiencing this pain. It's because it was first day off toradol and percocet, and I was going cold turkey with pain meds. The only pain med is Oxycodone, which I found out only lasts 1-2 hours and only kicks in after an hour. And you can only take 2 pills (10 mg) every 4 hours, so you have 2-3 hours of suffering. Since this is the closest time to my surgery without much pain meds, this was the first time I experience level 10 pain. First the first few days in hospital, I thought every patient who complained about pain was a wuss, because I didn't have much pain. I expecting pain levels like child-birthing pains, and never got to that level in the hospital.

Once I got to this level 10 pain, I finally realized what everyone was talking about. Yes, this was the most pain I ever felt in my life. This is probably what it feels like to be tortured.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 19, 2015, 06:41:03 PM
Week 1-2:
So I suffered this constant rollercoaster of pain (goes down to 3, and then jumps up to 9-10 every 2 hours) for several days. I had trouble sleeping at night because the pain would wake me up. I realized now why other patients had trouble sleeping at night. I asked another doctor friend of mine for his opinion. He told me to get Oxycontin which is a slow release version of Oxycodone and was wondering why they were not giving me Oxycontin. Oxycodone is 10 mg per 4 hours. Oxycontin is 10 mg per 12 hours. This way, I would not have a rollercoaster ride of pain. I emailed Dr. Paley who emailed the other doctors. At first, they were pissed that I asked an outside doctor for a second opinion. But in the end, they agreed with him, and they told me to get Oxycontin and Ibuprofen (Advil). So I was to take Oxycontin every 12 hours and Advil 800 mg (4 pills), every 6 hours. The Advil actually causes stomach ulcers (bleeding) if taken with the blood thinner that I was already prescribed. So it's dangerous to take Advil with it. But, the combination of Advil and Oxycontin worked. I no longer had the rollercoaster ride of pain. I had a base level of pain around 1-3. And when I go too long without pain meds (like if I slept for a long time), I sometimes get back to level 8 pain or so, but two pills of Oxycodone stops that immediately an hour after taking it. I decided at this point to only take Oxycodone when I needed it, such as an hour before PT start. This is because I was developing a tolerance for Oxycodone, so it wore off quicker and didn't have as much of an effect. So I found it more wise to only use it when needed, so that impact of it was stronger. It was so strong after not using it for a whole day that when you take two pills before PT, you feel euphoric and happy and don't feel ANY pain at all. This made PT a breeze for me. So this setup of one 10-mg Oxycontin per 12 hours, four 200-mg of Ibuprofen (Advil) per 6 hours, and one or two 5-mg of Oxycodone when pain level 0 is desired (only once or twice per day) works great for me, and I would recommend this pain med setup to anyone who had the same rollercoaster of pain and/or trouble sleeping at night.

Trying to get off Advil
One time I tried going cold turkey on the Advil (i.e. stop taking any at all) and used only Oxycontin/Oxycodone, because I was scared of getting stomach bleeding. That was dumb of me. Don't go cold turkey on pain meds. I went cold turkey for two days and suffered level 7 pain constantly during those two days. As soon as I got back to the Oxycontin/Advil combo, I was back to pain level 3 and below. I sleep the full night now with this setup and can do pretty much anything, like use the walker for long periods of time. I used my walker so often the first week out the hospital that I developed bruises on my palms. They have trouble healing, because I keep hurting that bruise over and over again when I use the walker at the hotel and during PT. I recommend getting a wrist guard and some gloves to soften your palms when holding the walker. I put about 70 lbs on my palms when using the walkers according the scales. I regret not getting the gloves sooner and bruising my palms. Don't make the same mistake as me.

Physical Therapy
By the way, they start you on PT 5 days a week immediately and PT happens at the Paley institute within the hospital. The days/times are randomly assigned to you at the end of each week. Some of those times and days are times when the Paley free transport don't operate. That's when I use the hotel's free shuttle to get there. But the hotel's shuttle doesn't have wheelchair access (it's just a red minivan), so I have to use the walker with it. But if the hotel shuttle is only from 8 am to 8 pm, so if your PT is at 7 am, you have to pay for that $8 taxi. PT for me is a breeze. I have excellent flexibility. I can touch my butt with my ankles. I have spread my legs 45 degrees to the side. I can put my knees straight to 0 degrees. PT is also fun when you crack jokes with the PT. The hour goes by very quickly, and I actually enjoy going to PT everyday. You get a random PT, so it's not always the same person. From what I heard, "big Mike" is the guy who really pushes you (i.e. makes you hurt but gives you good stretch results) and is the best PT. I haven't had him yet, so I can't comment. But all the other PT patients say that he's the best. I've only had the female PTs so far, and all have been very nice to me. They focus on your weak spots. For me, that's my hamstrings. Everything else is loose and flexible except for my hamstrings.

Tips I learned
1. When on the wheelchair, always keep your legs straight or dangling. Don't put your knees up on your chair. I was told that this makes your muscles tighter and hard to extend your legs later.
2. Don't sleep on your side. That's where your pins are and it hurts a lot when you wake up. I tried it once. Never again.
3. You need help for the first few weeks. It helps a lot. It's very hard to do much on your own. It can be done, but it's very hard. Things like opening doors are frustrating without help. Things like picking things up and putting it somewhere else are time consuming, because you have to get back on the wheelchair. It's hard to do these things while on a walker in your first few weeks, because of the pain. Hired caretakers are $250 per day (24 hours) and want their own room ($70/night), so try to find a friend/family to do it or you'll be spending a lot of money.
4. Put some towels or put a box/stool under your feet when you poop. This keeps the pressure off your femurs when you sit there for a long time. This reduces your pain and helps keep your blood flowing in your legs. I might use this trick when I get better, too, because my feet tend to fall asleep when pooping for half an hour.
5. Instead of using the weird gel-like cushion on the wheelchair, use the hotel pillow instead. The weird gel cushion feels like you're sitting on a hard rubber that keeps moving around. Pillow is much better feeling.
6. Try to get into the pool as soon as the doctors let you - usually 2 weeks after surgery. Being able to walk in the pool makes you feel normal, and the pool is usually warm. It's usually cold on rainy days, but mostly warm, because it's heated to around 78-80 degrees or so. On a sunny day, it feel likes 85 degrees in the water, which feels really nice. I usually swim at night (pool closes at 10 pm), because I don't want to get sun burnt, which can happen easily in Florida. Also night time is when there are less people, which is nice, because some of the kids (non-patients) that go in the pool are pretty rowdy and dive/splash water, even when they're not supposed to.
7. Try to get prescriptions earlier. The pharmacies nearby keep running out of drugs (Oxycodone and Oxycontin to be specific) and they don't really deliver except for Garden Drugs. Walgreens delivers to the hospital, though. So try to get them about a week in advance before you run out, because it takes about 1-2 weeks before they get their next shipments in each pharmacy I called.
8. They mark your leg where you're supposed to put the magnetic machine to do the distraction. The distraction machine is easy to use. First you plug in the machine to an outlet. Then you align the pill shaped hole in the distractor with the rectangle mark on your leg. Then press F1 to start the machine. It displays the distraction while you're doing it, and it lasts about 2 minutes. Then when it's done, the top-left arrow blinks and you press it to reset it back to 0. Then you put the machine on the other leg, and press F1 to start it again. Then you press the same top-left arrow to reset it. Finally you unplug the machine.
9. So here's a tip about the mark on your leg with distraction. They put a sticker over the mark, but that sticker comes off easily if you shower. So bring a black and silver sharpie. The black wears off faster but I use it to fill the inside of the rectangle. The silver sharpie lasts longer and I use it as the outline of the rectangle. I also drew a line with the silver sharpie around the distractor when placed in the position. You can't see the pill-shaped hole yourself, so you can't align the distractor yourself through that. Instead, get someone to align it for you and then draw an outline of the whole machine on your leg. Then you can just align the machine based on that outline instead of the rectangular maker. I get a bunch of clear stickers from the doctors to put over this to protect it from water. It lasts about 3-7 days. I should be able to distract myself using this method. I haven't tried yet, because I currently have a care taker doing it for me.
10. I shower after I poop, so I don't have to wipe. It also means that I only have to go to the bathroom once or twice a day.
11. I brush my teeth in the shower. It's hard to brush your teeth while standing, and I don't recommend it. Do it while sitting in the shower. They give you a chair to sit in the shower, and a chair to sit in for the toilet - with handle bars on each side to help you get up.

Day 16:
This is when you get your first X-ray and first doctor report on how well you're doing. My X-rays came back fine, and everything is going well. So I have nothing to report here. Distracted 16 mm on each leg as expected.

Week 2-3:
I'm in that "honey moon" phase that they speak of (i.e. not much surgerical pains, and lengthening pains haven't started yet). They say lengthening pain happens after 6 cm and continues to 8 cm. I plan to flex and stretch as much as possible before then so that I can prepare myself for the 6-8 cm stretch. Distraction/lengthening itself feels like nothing. You can't even tell that it's happening. You do only .25 mm each time and four times a day. I've met with the other patients here at the hotel. Everyone's very friendly. I set up card games, buy take out food for everyone, and hold Friday movie nights in my room to make the other patients feel more at home. I brought my PC and connected to the hotel TV via HDMI. The hotel TV sucks. I brought my own external speakers as well to help. But the TV is 1080p, but looks like 720p and is only 27 inches or so. Picture quality looks like something from 15 years ago.

Complaints about Dr. Paley
Everything actually runs very well and almost everything you need is given to you. There are a few things I didn't like, like the PT forgetting to tell me that they changed my time, so I ended missing a PT session. But most of that stuff is minor. The only real complaint is that they didn't give me Oxycontin/Advil idea to begin with and only started me off with Oxycodone. If they had me on Oxycontin/Advil to begin with, I probably wouldn't have had that level 10 pain in the first few days out of the hospital.

Other costs
So I already mentioned the costs before. So here are additional costs: Oxycontin is $200 for 60 pills. I was forced to get this from Garden Drugs, because they were the only ones who still had it in stock and I was in a rush to get them, since I was in that rollercoaster of pain. So it might be cheaper at the other pharmacies, but they might not be in stock. The other drugs combined is around $343 (again, don't use Garden Drugs if possible - they tried to charge me $660 or so for all of them). There was also a separate bill for the x-ray lab that went to my house that I didn't know about. It was for $170. That surprised me, because they never mentioned this to me when I paid $300 for the x-ray during the consultation. So the consultation with Dr. Paley is actually $750 (Dr. Paley) +$300 (xray) +$170 (xray lab) +$77 (vit D test) = $1,297 in total and not $1,000.

Okay, that's about all I have to report. Things are going well. And I think everything will be the same for the next few weeks/months. I'm actually a pretty busy guy with lots of work to do, so I will report back when things change. I doubt that YogiBear will update her diary. She's not doing as well as me. She's on that rollercoaster of pain that I told you guys about. I told her about my med setup and am trying to get her to get on it. Hopefully that will help her out. I don't think I should be talking about her situation, but I just wanted you guys to know why she hasn't been updating her diary. So don't blame her to for not updating her diary. I actually feel bad that she's not doing as well as I am with recovery, and would actually be surprised if she started writing in her diary again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on July 19, 2015, 07:08:30 PM
Good write-up.  Hang in there.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Ghostfish on July 20, 2015, 06:05:51 AM
Hi DoingItForMe

Congrats on your LL journey!  Thank you so much for writing a great diary so far.  It is really helpful and informative.
Be strong!
Wish you the very successful LL!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 20, 2015, 09:50:33 AM
Hi DoingItForMe

Congrats on your LL journey!  Thank you so much for writing a great diary so far.  It is really helpful and informative.
Be strong!
Wish you the very successful LL!

Thanks! I was tempted to not write it, because it's very time consuming and I'm not actually as bored as other patients say they are. I actually like being in the hotel room, because I brought my computer and it feels like my own bedroom. Also I go swimming everyday and talk to other patients everyday, so it feels like normal (maybe even better than normal life).

I wrote the diary because I learned a lot from the other people's diaries, and there were things I learned that were missing in other other diaries. Therefore I felt that it would be the right thing to do to pay it forward and help out future patients with my knowledge. I don't want to spend too much time on here, because I have other more important things to do. But I will drop by every once in a while. If you don't hear from me, you can just assume that things are still going well. I will come back and write in the diary when things change or I learn something new. The only change right now is that I'm able to survive the day without OxyCodone now and have reduced my Advil intake to just two pills per 6 hours. I hope within the next few days that I only need OxyContin. And then for the next week, to be off all narcotics in general, so that I can drive again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on August 20, 2015, 04:08:36 PM
Hey mate I don't mean to rush you or anything, especially since you do seem busy, but considering it's been about a month I was wondering how you have been?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CBixler on August 23, 2015, 06:03:23 PM
Yes an update would be nice. How is everything? I hope the second month of lengthening is a lot smoother than the first one
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 23, 2015, 11:35:44 PM
I was doing stellar from 0-4 cm. Flexibility was still amazing and impressed all the PTs. I could bend my legs 150 degrees (ankles touching my butt). At around 4-5 cm, my flexibility starts nose-diving. I measured at 120 degrees last week, and I am probably at 110 degrees or less now. 90 degree is the goal, and I'm still past it, but I'm getting dangerously close. My 90 degree straight leg raise was last measured at 65 degrees on the right and 75 on the left. The goal is 70 degrees, so I'm not doing great with my hamstrings too. I can also only bend my foot up 10 degrees from neutral. 20 degrees is the goal.

I blame my loss in flexibility on two things. First, I am not as young as the teenaged patients here. They are able to flex just fine. I assume because they are still growing, and their body is okay with that. My puberty stopped a decade ago, and it is now evident. The muscles on my legs are really tight now like they've been over stretched. It is not keeping up with the lengthening. I am going hard on PT to try get me flexibility back. I am in the pool 3 hours a day and stretching as much as I can that my endurance and pain lets me. But I guess my leg muscles are working against me (prior to surgery, I could leg press 550+ lbs - not sure what my max is, because the machine at my gym tops off at 550 lbs). My suggestion is to not have muscular legs prior to leg lengthening if you're doing femurs.

As for the pain, the doctors are trying to wean me off them. And that is annoying me, because it gives me less time to do PT at home. I require two Oxycodone 5 mg pills to feel no pain. A single Oxycodone does almost nothing for me. But they give me only 4 pills a day. So if I take two for PT, I only have two left for the rest of the day. And two pills lasts only 3-4 hours. It's not enough in my opinion, and I question why the doctors are doing this to me. I also blame this for why I am losing flexibility. Before, I used to be able to do PT at home almost 24 hours a day, because I was on oxy 24 hours a day. Now they won't even give me OxyContin (the long lasting one) during the day.

So I was back to that rollercoaster of pain I mentioned because I don't have OxyContin during the day. I don't think the doctor (Dr. Packer) understands that I'm experiencing a lot of pain when not on Oxy. She said that I've been on oxy for over a month and should be off it by now. Well, when I'm ripping my muscle fibers apart to stretch my legs further, it isn't exactly a walk in the park. She doesn't believe me, and I am rationing out my Oxy now like it's a rare commodity.

Since I only get OxyContin once per day, I decided to just take it during the day instead and take no oxy at all at night. I figured that if I'm going to be in pain several hours a day, I rather sleep through it. So now I'm trying to take OxyContin during the day and jam 3 hours of PT after taking two Oxycodone. Then I save the other two Oxycodone as emergency for when the pain gets too much. I would much prefer if I had more Oxycodone so that I could do more PT throughout the day. I will see the doctor next Tuesday, and will see how that goes.

Other than that, I am past 5 cm and I am counting down the days until 8 cm. I have no caretaker, and have managed to do everything on my own. Going to the pool 3 hours a day and chatting with the other patients help a lot. I also host trivia game nights at my hotel room and share my snacks to the other patients. They all appreciate it.

Will I get to 8 cm? I'm 90% sure that I will. I will power through the pain and keep doing as much PT as I can. If the doctor gives me enough oxy this time around, I raise my chances of getting to 8 cm to 99%.

How does it feel to be 2 inches taller? Amazing! I used to be 5'5"-5'6" (depending on time of day), and now I'm 5'7"-5'8". I measured at 167 cm at the office when I started, so I will probably be 175 cm when finished, which is close to 5'9". I'm going to wear one inch shoe lifts to get to my ideal height of 5'10" instead of doing Tibs. I think one inch in sole gels are not that embarrassing or shameful - compared to the 2-3 inch ones I used to use. Now that I've been through the process, I think losing 6 more months of my life is not worth it. The jump from 5'6" to 5'9" is enormous though.

Some of the girls here staying at the hotel are starting to develop a crush on me. So this is how it feels like to be attractive. I've never had girls become interested in me from just my looks before. It feels good. It makes you feel wanted and confident. Even though I'm experiencing the worst pain in my life, I am extremely positive about the whole process. It is like I'm getting a second chance at life. I wish I had done this sooner. But then again, the technology was not as good back then. This precice 2.1 is pretty resilient. I doubt that weight bearing is only 75 lbs. I have put more than 75 lbs on them before and they still are not bent. But I only did it by mistake and only lasted for a second or less.

I'm newly single and can't wait to get an expensive tailored suit and find myself a nice girlfriend to spend time with. This was the same feeling happy feeling I had when I got rid of my glasses and got LASIK.

As for long term effects, I do notice that I lost my ass muscles. I lost 15 lbs and I think a lot of was from my butt. I can no longer touch my toes while bending down. I can no longer sit Indian style. I can no longer put my legs behind my head. I haven't lost my leg muscles though. Probably because I walk in the pool 3 hours a day. Other patients look like they have skipped leg day for life. Meanwhile my legs are still thick and muscular. I think I gained a lot of upper body strength, since I use my arms to get around everywhere. I'm noticeably more proportional now, and I am no longer ashamed of my body when I look in the mirror. Instead, pardon my ckiness, I look really attractive. If I was a 4-6 before, I am a 7-9 now. Once I heal up, I plan on getting my six pack back and aiming for the 9-10 level in physical attractiveness. If anything, the LL process has gotten me on a 3-4 hour per day workout regime, and I've been sticking to it pretty well. Before, I used to focus mostly on work and ignored my body. Now that I have more money than I can spend in a lifetime, I have enough free time to focus on my health and hopefully attracting my future wife.

I remember two years ago, my friends talked me out of getting LL. They said that I should just accept who I am and be happy with what I have. They said that I should find someone who doesn't care about height. I did. And then she left me. And then I kept getting rejected by high quality girls because of my height (yes, I asked them why). So my friends were wrong and I wish I did this when I was younger and healed quicker. I am much happier now, and I am attracting a lot more girls than before. This means that the quality of my future wife will be much better as well. Screw accepting a lower standard. Aim higher. Make your dreams come true. Don't accept that loser mentality that you can't get better. Society is not going to change for you. Heightism is real. I can see the difference between even just being two inches taller.

Would I recommend LL? Yes, if you are below 5'7". At 5'8" and above, I'd say that it's not as worth it. Except if you're really rich and money isn't an issue and time isn't an issue and pain isn't an issue and if you live in a place where everyone is taller than you. Then yea, why not? If you're under 25, I'd say that LL is much easier to do than if you're say over 30. I can see how the difference in age is affecting the recovery in the different patients. If you're around 5'5" as a male, I'd say that the jump in three inches is probably the most significant. Most bang for the buck if you will.

I hope this diary helps people. Good luck to all the other patients present and future.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on August 24, 2015, 01:09:26 AM
Fantastic diary as always mate. Good to see that for the most part you're doing good physically and mentally and that you've gained much greater confidence. As for the effects you've noted, just take it easy. I'm sure going Indian-Style and bending down to your toes will return to you when you've consolidated and recovered your muscle strength; and after you've taken the rods out (which will also be a bit of a wait but still). One thing I have to wonder is how do you know look proportionally speaking? You said you look a bit more proportional so I'm wondering what your wingspan is and the inseam to height ration of you body is? As always mate wish you look on this journey!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 24, 2015, 02:08:00 AM
DoingitforMe...very happy for you and that you seem so happy so far. Getting to 5'8" range will help a lot with girls. It's not an amazing height and you're still in the short zone (though bordering on average, at times), but women typically aren't a problem. I'm a solid 5'8" at night (but I claim 5'9" on online dating sites, since I'm that height in shoes anyway, more if I'm wearing Nike Airmax or Timberlands/boots), and women 5'5" and below are now no sweat (even in heels). And there are MANY hot women that height and below (though I'm dating two girls right now, one is 5'6 and the other is 5'7...they don't seem to mind). And a hookup is 5'3" and she said "what are you, 5'10?" That was...pretty awesome :)

Would love another inch someday, though. I did mockups with another inch on femurs, and surprisingly, they don't look terrible! If I can manage the time, I might just do that. I know you said you're gonna wear lifts, but even wearing 1 inch lifts piss me off and make me feel like a fraud.

Keep going man. Stay strong!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 24, 2015, 02:17:09 AM
My wingspan is 5'7". I look more proportional now because I have a long face and long torso. My Tibs do look short now compared to the rest of my body though. I think this is where wearing long pants and shoe lifts will make my Tibs look longer. I may consider tub lengthening to 5 cm just to be safe and make it more proportional, but it seems like it's not as worth it as getting from 5'6 to 5'9
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 24, 2015, 02:23:30 AM
My wingspan is 5'7". I look more proportional now because I have a long face and long torso. My Tibs do look short now compared to the rest of my body though. I think this is where wearing long pants and shoe lifts will make my Tibs look longer. I may consider tub lengthening to 5 cm just to be safe and make it more proportional, but it seems like it's not as worth it as getting from 5'6 to 5'9

Wingspan is about 5'7.5/5'8 (don't know it exactly, but in that range). The only time my tibias really seem short is when I'm nked, but once your thighs fill out again like mine have, they won't look as bad.

In a perfect world, if I had the time (can't screw up my career), I'd do 4cm on tibias, and be done. I might have to settle for 2.5cm more on femurs and deal with the not amazing proportions (although in the mockup, they didn't look much different from how they are right now, and I don't think they're that bad now).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 24, 2015, 02:28:09 AM
DoingitforMe...very happy for you and that you seem so happy so far. Getting to 5'8" range will help a lot with girls. It's not an amazing height and you're still in the short zone (though bordering on average, at times), but women typically aren't a problem. I'm a solid 5'8" at night (but I claim 5'9" on online dating sites, since I'm that height in shoes anyway, more if I'm wearing Nike Airmax or Timberlands/boots), and women 5'5" and below are now no sweat (even in heels). And there are MANY hot women that height and below (though I'm dating two girls right now, one is 5'6 and the other is 5'7...they don't seem to mind). And a hookup is 5'3" and she said "what are you, 5'10?" That was...pretty awesome :)

Would love another inch someday, though. I did mockups with another inch on femurs, and surprisingly, they don't look terrible! If I can manage the time, I might just do that. I know you said you're gonna wear lifts, but even wearing 1 inch lifts piss me off and make me feel like a fraud.

Keep going man. Stay strong!

Agreed about the lifts making it seem like a fraud. But, the shoe lifts I have make my soles more comfortable, so I'd be wearing them even if it didn't give me a height boost. I wear shoes deep enough that the shoe lifts are invisible when you take them off. And I think dropping down one inch after taking off your shoes isn't really that noticeable. Dropping two to three inches was, though.

In your case, if adding one inch was that easy, I'd do it. In my case, I'd have to do a whole new surgery to get to 5'10", so I'll be happy at just 5'9". I originally reported that I measured at a shorter height 5'5". But it turned out that my posture was lowering my height by an inch. By fixing my posture and straightening my spine a bit, I got to a little less than 5'6" prior to surgery. I guess all those years of hunching over and programming made my posture suck. So those looking to look an inch taller, try fixing your posture with a massage therapist.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 24, 2015, 02:35:51 AM
Agreed about the lifts making it seem like a fraud. But, the shoe lifts I have make my soles more comfortable, so I'd be wearing them even if it didn't give me a height boost. I wear shoes deep enough that the shoe lifts are invisible when you take them off. And I think dropping down one inch after taking off your shoes isn't really that noticeable. Dropping two to three inches was, though.

In your case, if adding one inch was that easy, I'd do it. In my case, I'd have to do a whole new surgery to get to 5'10", so I'll be happy at just 5'9". I originally reported that I measured at a shorter height 5'5". But it turned out that my posture was lowering my height by an inch. By fixing my posture and straightening my spine a bit, I got to a little less than 5'6" prior to surgery. I guess all those years of hunching over and programming made my posture suck. So those looking to look an inch taller, try fixing your posture with a massage therapist.

Yeah it's kinda hard to say what our starting heights truly are, because you get different measurements based on how you stand and the time of day, and even the method used (stadiometer vs manual measurement). Dr. Rozbruch in NY had me at close to 5'6" (like you), Dr. G had me at 5.5.3", so I go with Dr. G's conservative measurement. I'm close to 5'9" in the morning out of bed. Hopefully you can get 8cm, I had to stop at 7cm (or just over it, because apparently clicks give you a bit more) because of my left leg having slow consolidation and a lot of pain at the end.

In theory, another inch on femurs would be relatively "easy" (if you can refer to breaking your bones as "easy"). He said it would only take 2 weeks to actually get the inch, and then consolidation for such a small amount should be a lot faster. Only issue is that I just landed a new job, but if I'm there for at least a year, then maybe I'll consider it. Proportions will not be ideal, which is my only concern, but the mockups actually didn't look bad at all. I was pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 24, 2015, 10:54:55 AM
The day before my surgery, I measured myself at 167 cm (almost 5'6") by drawing a line on my wall where my head is while looking at a mirror to make sure that the pencil was parallel to the ground. And then I used a tape measure to measure the distance from the ground to that line.

When I went to Paley's consultation at the beginning of the year, they measured me at 5'5" (165 cm), which made no sense. But then I remembered that when they did it, I had been staying up all night the night before my consultation. My spine and posture was not very good when they measured me and I was very tired. I also remember them pushing the metal line really hard down on my head to the point where it hurt. Now that I think back about it, I think it was a tactic to make me think that I'm shorter than I really am.

But I also think what really changed was that I measured myself at 5'6" right after I woke up from a good nights sleep. And this was also after I had multiple massage therapy sessions to remove the decade old knots on my back and spine. This straightened up my posture by a lot, and even my friends noticed. So right before surgery, they remeasured me at pre-op, and I was standing at 167 cm.

Right now, my posture is back to being bad, because of duck ass. The curvature of your spine is noticeable when you have duck ass. After I fix my posture again when the recovery is all finished, I'd be probably 175 cm, which is slightly less than 5'9". But I don't mind not being exactly 5'9". I was able to get gorgeous girls at 5'5"- 5'6" (being a young self-made multimillionaire with a nice face helps here). So being around 5'9" is going to be a walk in the park.

If I can regain my flexibility within a year, I might do my tibias at a conservative 5 cm to get me to 180 cm, which is close to 5'11. I have the time and money for it. Whether it's worth it or not is questionable, because it IS a loss of 3-6 months of my life. What do you guys think? If my recovery goes well and I regain my flexibility, should I aim for 5'11" and regain proportions on my legs?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 24, 2015, 12:19:49 PM
Well yeah, if you measure yourself in the morning right after a good night's sleep, you're gonna be at your tallest possible height. I don't know what my morning height was before LL (probably about 5'6", I know I was 5'5.3" at night), but I know I'm a tad below 5'9" right outta bed (like 174.7 ish), and around 5'8" at night right before bed.

In your case, if you have the time and money, why not do enough just to get to 5'10? I'd love to be 5'10 (evening height), but my career would end up in a precarious state if I took more time off (I am lucky I was able to get a fully paid leave and work from home for 3 months, as it was). Since you're self-made (congrats by the way - you have my utmost respect), you can easily do another LL. I will likely have to settle for 5'9 via an extra inch on femurs...cheaper and faster than a tibia LL.

If you're able to get girls at 5'5", yeah getting girls post LL will be a cakewalk. I think once you hit 5'8" (at the bare minimum), facial aesthetics and body really take over (unless they are size queens who will exclusively date 6ft or above).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 24, 2015, 07:50:19 PM
Yea doing just 5-6 cm more on my Tibs would get me to 5'10"-5'11". That would be my dream height. I think I will do it next year unless I meet some amazing girl and she's happy with my 5'8"-5'9" height. I got measured again today for my doc's appointment tomorrow and I actually gained flexibility back. I measure 126 degrees on my right leg for knee bend, and 70 degrees for straight leg raise. 70 degrees for straight leg raise is just neutral for them, so I will have to keep working on that. But that's a 5 degree improvement from 65 last time, and 120 for knee bend. This means that all that extra PT I've been doing while in the hotel really worked.

I am updating my guess from 90% chance to get to 8 cm to 97% chance to get to 8 cm now, seeing that I am able to maintain or improve my flexibility even though I am at around 6 cm now.

Do you think it'll be weird to be 5'11" with a 5'7" wingspan though? Seems like maybe I should just be happy with 5'8"-5'9".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 24, 2015, 09:30:35 PM
Yea doing just 5-6 cm more on my Tibs would get me to 5'10"-5'11". That would be my dream height. I think I will do it next year unless I meet some amazing girl and she's happy with my 5'8"-5'9" height. I got measured again today for my doc's appointment tomorrow and I actually gained flexibility back. I measure 126 degrees on my right leg for knee bend, and 70 degrees for straight leg raise. 70 degrees for straight leg raise is just neutral for them, so I will have to keep working on that. But that's a 5 degree improvement from 65 last time, and 120 for knee bend. This means that all that extra PT I've been doing while in the hotel really worked.

I am updating my guess from 90% chance to get to 8 cm to 97% chance to get to 8 cm now, seeing that I am able to maintain or improve my flexibility even though I am at around 6 cm now.

Do you think it'll be weird to be 5'11" with a 5'7" wingspan though? Seems like maybe I should just be happy with 5'8"-5'9".

I hope you can get to 8cm, good luck man! I worked really hard in PT and had above average (though I wouldn't say amazing) flexibility, and it got really hard at about 6cm. Really hard. But I'm sure you'll do fine.

5'8" isn't too bad, and generally good for most women aside from very tall ones (which don't even appeal to me, regardless) or true height queens. The only thing I would say is not to base your decision on future LL on having a gf or not. Do what you want and what makes you happy :) I know I'd be be 100% satisfied at 5'10, but time is an issue for me. So I might have to settle for 5'9 and not amazing proportions if I do another inch on my femurs next year. That seems to be the fastest and easiest way to get closer to my ideal height range of average without taking what seems like another eternity to recovery. And after you recover from this, seeing how long it will take (especially if you do 8cm), you may not wanna do tibias (they take even longer). But you're a few years younger than me, you're rich and self employed - so if anyone can do it, you can!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 25, 2015, 12:01:18 AM
The only thing I would say is not to base your decision on future LL on having a gf or not. Do what you want and what makes you happy :) I know I'd be be 100% satisfied at 5'10, but time is an issue for me.

You might have misunderstood what I meant when I said that. I meant that if I find an amazing gf within the next year and she's okay with my height (i.e. finds me attractive), then I will probably be too busy traveling the world and having fun with her to have time for another 6 months of LL. I had a gorgeous, amazing long-term GF of many years when I did this LL. I was doing it purely for my happiness. But I couldn't help but feel that I took 2 months away from her life as she took care of me and had to handle my pee and watch me piss myself in bed. If I didn't do LL, I would have been traveling the world with her like I used to do and have great fun. I felt really bad about it as most of our time was spent sitting in a hotel room and it made our relationship very stale - like being in a boring marriage. I would not want to put any girlfriend through this again. She broke up with me after she stopped taking care of me. She was happy with my height before, and I think I lost a lot of respect from her for doing LL. This is why people should keep LL a secret. Other people will not say it to your face, but I have a strong feeling that a majority of people will lose respect for you when they find out that you did a cosmetic surgery. It is similar to how people lose respect for women who get breast implants. They see it as vanity, and they don't understand the discrimination and heightism. I wouldn't want to lose another amazing GF again. And I think going from 5'6" to 5'9" is a bit more understandable. If I told my future GF that I was going to volunteer to be handicap for 6 months and risk potential long-term side effects like knee pain to gain 2 inches in height, she might also lose major respect for me. I don't want that.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on August 25, 2015, 03:02:55 AM
watch me piss myself in bed.

why would this happen? I thought LLers can do toilet transfers themselves.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 25, 2015, 10:43:25 AM
Only for pooping. It is more convenient to use the urinal, especially because I drink a lot of water to keep myself healthy. It is hard to pee horizontally into a urinal. It is not uncommon to get piss on yourself afterwards, because gravity doesn't clear out all the residue pee in your penis.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 25, 2015, 01:16:15 PM
I don't even care about a gf or not, but I would tread carefully. If I ended up with an amazing gf (and could see it going long-term), I would possibly consider not doing a second LL. But a woman can always just leave you, and I have to be true to myself. And I'm still not happy with my height. Whether I'm doing femurs for an inch or 1.5 inches on tibias, I am almost certainly doing a future LL. I will not stop until I am happy, regardless of a hypothetical future woman or not.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 25, 2015, 06:19:51 PM
I will not stop until I am happy, regardless of a hypothetical future woman or not.

I really hope you become happy one day with or without the surgery. Good luck, my friend. And let my experience be a warning if you do get an amazing long term gf and you end up doing LL in front of her. She will most likely lose a lot of respect for you and even be disgusted. Whenever I see posts on non-LL forums about someone doing LL, almost all of the replies from women are that it's a huge red flag and a deal breaker. And if she asks her friends if how she feels about LL is rational, all of her friends will also think that you're crazy and not support what you're doing. This is what happened to me. And this is how I lost my girlfriend. So my advice would be to do that LL sooner before you find your significant other.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 25, 2015, 06:36:31 PM
I really hope you become happy one day with or without the surgery. Good luck, my friend. And let my experience be a warning if you do get an amazing long term gf and you end up doing LL in front of her. She will most likely lose a lot of respect for you and even be disgusted. Whenever I see posts on non-LL forums about someone doing LL, almost all of the replies from women are that it's a huge red flag and a deal breaker. And if she asks her friends if how she feels about LL is rational, all of her friends will also think that you're crazy and not support what you're doing. This is what happened to me. And this is how I lost my girlfriend. So my advice would be to do that LL sooner before you find your significant other.

Thanks man. And I agree with you 100%. I was out with a very hot girl last night. She said several times how she doesn't date guys below 5'7" (and then guess me at "what are you, 5'9 or 5'10")? I would never tell a woman about this. If I'm tight that day and my gait is still funny, I just tell her I had surgery to fix bowlegs, and it's worked so far.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on August 25, 2015, 11:25:38 PM
What's up?  I am staying at home wood suites right now waiting for my consultation tomorrow. I'll be here till Thursday and I'll most likely have my surgery next month. If you get bored let me know.  Hope all is well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 26, 2015, 09:54:21 AM
What's up?  I am staying at home wood suites right now waiting for my consultation tomorrow. I'll be here till Thursday and I'll most likely have my surgery next month. If you get bored let me know.  Hope all is well.

Good luck with the consultation. Maybe you might bump into me at the physical therapist office in the morning.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on August 26, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
I really hope you become happy one day with or without the surgery. Good luck, my friend. And let my experience be a warning if you do get an amazing long term gf and you end up doing LL in front of her. She will most likely lose a lot of respect for you and even be disgusted. Whenever I see posts on non-LL forums about someone doing LL, almost all of the replies from women are that it's a huge red flag and a deal breaker. And if she asks her friends if how she feels about LL is rational, all of her friends will also think that you're crazy and not support what you're doing. This is what happened to me. And this is how I lost my girlfriend. So my advice would be to do that LL sooner before you find your significant other.

I don't know if you can keep a secret for long. Once you get really close to her, and get over the fact that you did LL it wouldn't be ok to keep it a secret. What do you think would happen if she found out after you have kids, etc. Living a part of a distasteful marriage will suck. Not that I have a solution to the issue, I'm pointing out that keeping it a secret is really critical and yet difficult.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 26, 2015, 02:26:57 PM
I don't know if you can keep a secret for long. Once you get really close to her, and get over the fact that you did LL it wouldn't be ok to keep it a secret. What do you think would happen if she found out after you have kids, etc. Living a part of a distasteful marriage will suck. Not that I have a solution to the issue, I'm pointing out that keeping it a secret is really critical and yet difficult.
I can keep a secret very well. I don't plan on getting married and having kids. World's overpopulated.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on August 27, 2015, 12:01:44 AM
I wouldn't tell anyone.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 27, 2015, 11:39:55 AM
So a new development is that my nails are slightly bent near the top. However, the distraction is still working, so they still have me to okay to go to 8 cm. they also told me that to get to 8 cm, I actually have to lengthen to 84 mm. So I'm staying a bit longer than expected.

In other news, I stopped taking OxyContin, because I'm running out of it. I plan on saving it for days that I would need it consistently, like if I went on a date. I now only take Oxycodone, which leaves gaps in my pain because they only last 3-4 hours. When I wake up in the morning, that is when I am at my peak pain. The oxy would be at its lowest in the morning. This is when I find out what is really aching in my body. And lately, it is the area around my knee. My knee cap is not aligned properly. It makes a clicking noise when I bend or move my legs sideways. The doctor told me that clicking noises happen to a lot of people and that it's nothing to worry about. I bet that I am grinding my knee caps right now against my knee joint and this is going to give me knee pain when I'm older. So my plan is to not do running any more in my future. I read that runners also develop knee problems from all the rubbing. Only swimming for aerobic activity for me from now on. Other than that, I'm in a very uplifting mood, because they gave me the okay to go to 8 cm and I am already at 6 cm. the next 25 days are going to be really tough, from what I heard. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on August 27, 2015, 12:01:40 PM
So a new development is that my nails are slightly bent near the top. However, the distraction is still working, so they still have me to okay to go to 8 cm. they also told me that to get to 8 cm, I actually have to lengthen to 84 mm. So I'm staying a bit longer than expected.

In other news, I stopped taking OxyContin, because I'm running out of it. I plan on saving it for days that I would need it consistently, like if I went on a date. I now only take Oxycodone, which leaves gaps in my pain because they only last 3-4 hours. When I wake up in the morning, that is when I am at my peak pain. The oxy would be at its lowest in the morning. This is when I find out what is really aching in my body. And lately, it is the area around my knee. My knee cap is not aligned properly. It makes a clicking noise when I bend or move my legs sideways. The doctor told me that clicking noises happen to a lot of people and that it's nothing to worry about. I bet that I am grinding my knee caps right now against my knee joint and this is going to give me knee pain when I'm older. So my plan is to not do running any more in my future. I read that runners also develop knee problems from all the rubbing. Only swimming for aerobic activity for me from now on. Other than that, I'm in a very uplifting mood, because they gave me the okay to go to 8 cm and I am already at 6 cm. the next 25 days are going to be really tough, from what I heard. Wish me luck!

Isn't there an alternative to giving up running? Perhaps you could fix whatever bothers your knees with another surgery, or ask your doctor about it. I'm not sure I understand it fully but if it doesn't just go away, you shouldn't have to live with it.

All the best! You're more than 2 inches taller than you were before.  8)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 27, 2015, 12:11:32 PM
I didn't do running before the surgery anyway. I do elliptical and swimming
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on August 27, 2015, 12:13:47 PM
I didn't do running before the surgery anyway. I do elliptical and swimming

But the knee cap and clicking problem is temporary, right? Plus the doctor said it's common, so what's the problem?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 27, 2015, 01:19:06 PM
It's temporary hopefully. The reason is two things. One is that my knee caps are being pushed to the outside, because my femur is jamming into it and the tendons around the knee cap are holding it back from letting it stay in the middle. So it is grinding against my knee joints.

Another clicking noise is near the middle of my nail. They said that this is from the bone forming around the gap. The formation is not 100% smooth and narrow. It will be slightly larger than the rest of the femur. This causes the rough newly formed bone to scrap against the muscles.

I will report that with more stretching, I managed to get the clicking noise reduced. Other patients said that it goes away after a few weeks.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 29, 2015, 06:40:00 PM
Does anyone know if LL patients are still on pain meds after 6 cm and heading to 8 cm? Dr. Packer told me that most people have been off pain meds by now. But half the patients at the hotel are on it still and half are off it. In general, it seems like those under 25 of age are off it, and those over it are still on it. But I'm curious to know if other LLs who have done it have aches and tightness while going from 6 cm to 8 cm.

I still have a lot of pain in my legs when I'm not on Oxy. The pain is like a lingering ache/soreness. And then there's also a sharp pain in my knee joints. I'm starting to get worried that the pain will be permanent. Though most seem to report that a week after the lengthening stops, the pain stops. I hope that is the case for me as well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on August 29, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
Don't worry about the pain being permanent. You're still in the process, damn it. Worry if it's there after the process.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 29, 2015, 07:34:38 PM
Does anyone know if LL patients are still on pain meds after 6 cm and heading to 8 cm? Dr. Packer told me that most people have been off pain meds by now. But half the patients at the hotel are on it still and half are off it. In general, it seems like those under 25 of age are off it, and those over it are still on it. But I'm curious to know if other LLs who have done it have aches and tightness while going from 6 cm to 8 cm.

I still have a lot of pain in my legs when I'm not on Oxy. The pain is like a lingering ache/soreness. And then there's also a sharp pain in my knee joints. I'm starting to get worried that the pain will be permanent. Though most seem to report that a week after the lengthening stops, the pain stops. I hope that is the case for me as well.

Most people in China while I was there took pain meds the entire time.  I've never heard of people going off the pain meds once they get past a certain point.  I had aches, soreness, and tightness the whole time I was lengthening.  What you're going through sounds perfectly normal to me.  Most likely all of your problems will go away once you're done.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 29, 2015, 07:52:52 PM
Does anyone know if LL patients are still on pain meds after 6 cm and heading to 8 cm? Dr. Packer told me that most people have been off pain meds by now. But half the patients at the hotel are on it still and half are off it. In general, it seems like those under 25 of age are off it, and those over it are still on it. But I'm curious to know if other LLs who have done it have aches and tightness while going from 6 cm to 8 cm.

I still have a lot of pain in my legs when I'm not on Oxy. The pain is like a lingering ache/soreness. And then there's also a sharp pain in my knee joints. I'm starting to get worried that the pain will be permanent. Though most seem to report that a week after the lengthening stops, the pain stops. I hope that is the case for me as well.


I experienced most of what you describe. I was on pain meds the entire time I was lengthening. After 5cm, I felt it got pretty hard. 6cm to 7cm was a real b*tch. I wanted to go to 8cm, but had to stop around 7cm or a little over that because the pain in my left leg (which I still have sometimes, though not nearly as bad) got almost unbearable.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 29, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
Okay, thanks for the reassurance, guys. And yea, around 5 cm is when my thighs got tighter while bending them. Followed by my knee caps starting to click and hurt. I'm still aiming for 8 cm. Just wanted to make sure I don't mess up my legs by lengthening too much. My nail is slightly bent btw, since 5 cm. the doctors didn't mention it, but I can see it in the X-rays. It looks exactly like programdude's X-rays. The lengthening still works even though it's slightly bent, so I don't care. I looked at other patient's X-rays and they are also slightly bent. By the way, I have a lot of stories to tell about other patients who don't have diaries here. I will tell them when my process is over and when theirs are over, too.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 30, 2015, 12:46:47 PM
For first time this morning, I woke up not so sore. And for the first time, I didn't wake up from the pain. I had a slight soreness in my knee joints, because I slept in a fetal position. Stretching out my legs straight immediately fixed that pain. Normally I'd wake up in agonizing pain and then rush to take pain meds. This morning and also yesterday, I was feeling less pain. I am at 6.1 cm right now, and should be 6.2 by the end of the day. They want me to lengthen to 8.4 cm, so I am literally counting down the days now. But the lack of pain now is very very promising. So what changed?

Tropical storm Erika is hitting us and the pool is constantly rained out. I only went to the pool for about 10 minutes before getting out. This is the first time I've done so little pool PT. Normally I walk for 3 hours, which is about 1 mile or so. If you look at my legs, they're still bulky, and my PTs don't even bother doing leg exercises much with me anymore, because of how much exercise I do already.

Anyway, I realize now that the pain I've been feeling is probably the soreness from all the stretching and walking I do in the pool and at the PT office - where I also tell them to push me to pain level 10 and hold it. My pain tolerance lets them flex me that much, and it was the only reason why I gained flexibility when normally people lose flexibility. However, I noticed on Friday that I let them stretch me too far each time, because for first time, they pulled a muscle. While doing a straight leg raise on my right leg, the tendon connecting my groin to my left inner thigh felt a very very sharp pain like something ripped. The PT immediately ran and grabbed an ice pack. It still hurt for the rest of Saturday, and I think it stopped and healed up now.

So to sum things up, I decided to use yesterday as my "rest day", which I don't normally do. Every day for the past two month had no rest days. And with the "rest day", most of my aches and soreness went away. I only took four Oxycodones yesterday without any OxyContin. This is the least amount of Oxy I've ever taken before. Before that I was on 5 for two days, and before that I was on 6 for two days, and before that I was on OxyContin with various amounts of Oxycodone (4-6).

So I conclude that the pains are gone because I either finally let my body have a rest day from all working out. Or I've been having withdrawal symptoms from Oxy and now no longer do. Yesterday was the only day I never took more then 5 mg of Oxy per 4-6 hours. Or my body just got lucky and healed all the problem areas. Either way, I am feeling in an upbeat mood this morning because now I know that none the pain I felt was permanent. Unless something happens in the next 23 days, I should be able to get to 8.4 cm without permanent damage to my body. I am so happy right now.

Of course, I was still on Oxy yesterday, but when I woke up this morning, it would have been over 8 hours since I last took one. And I know Oxy wears off after 3-4 hours. So each time I wake up, I know what I would feel like if I didn't take Oxy. I finally felt okay for the first time in a long time. I mean, I still feel pain when I flex my legs past its limits, but I no longer have that lingering aches and soreness all over. With this knowledge, I'm still going to do a lot of PT at home and at the hospital. Right now, my flexibility and getting to 8.4 cm is more important than not feeling pain. This would probably mean that I'd have to go back to taking more Oxy to battle the pain. I'm fine with that, because I just proved in the past month that I am capable of weaning myself off Oxy and resisting the temptation to take them just to get that "high". My rest day was for me to just find out if the pain would stop if I stopped working myself so hard. I'm an overachiever, so that explains why I've been doing more PT than most patients here.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 31, 2015, 01:14:50 AM
Met with Dr. Paley today. He told me that the clicking noise in my femur sounds mechanical and that it is probably the rods rubbing against each other internally. I asked him if I should be worried and he said no. But he will check my X-rays tomorrow and give me a better idea of how I'm doing. Also, he told me to expect to stay at least an extra few days after my lengthening is complete. Mine should be complete in 22 days (so next next next Monday). I have a doctor's appointment with him that day. But he said not to expect to leave the next day. I was quite surprised by that. He said to expect to leave Friday, but he will let me go home early if he sees that I am doing well. So for future patients, expect to be in West Palm Beach around 90 days instead of 80 days of lengthening. Seems like everyone doesn't lengthen the exact amount each time. Everyone seems to lose .25 mm of lengthening every two weeks. So they want patients to lengthen to 8.4 cm to get to exactly 8 cm. Their explanation is that it is hard to lengthening perfectly each time. I don't buy it. I lengthen exactly as they told me to without any mistakes. My explanation is that the machine is not exactly "precise".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 31, 2015, 01:32:29 AM
I have heard several times that the Precice sometimes doesn't give you the full amount that you click because the muscles  (as they tense up) fight against the lengthening mechanism. I've heard this happen for Precice and Fitbone patients (seems to be the motorized nails). Clicking nails like the Gnail and Betzbone are more painful and probably not ideal for soft tissue, but they seem to give you a bit more than what you click. But I'll probably go back whenever I can and finish what's left on my nails (2-3cm) to feel fully accomplished.

Very happy that you seem to be able to get your full goal man! Congrats in advance, you're almost home!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 31, 2015, 05:15:03 AM
Thanks YellowSpike. Congrats to you in advance as well to achieving your goal if you get the extra 2-3 cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on August 31, 2015, 12:32:40 PM
Thanks YellowSpike. Congrats to you in advance as well to achieving your goal if you get the extra 2-3 cm.

Thanks. You are reaping the rewards of being a model and dedicated patient. I thought I worked hard, but apparently not hard enough (my main mistake was not walking enough early on). Maybe I shouldn't have done LL in a foreign country all alone with zero help (do all your own shopping, getting food prepared, laundry, etc.)...but I digress lol

At this point, I know exactly what I have to do for a better recovery (stretch more and walk a lot, even with broken legs). So 2-3cm more will be a walk in the park for me relative to what I just did (7cm). Proportions won't be ideal, but I don't think they'll be too terrible (mockups looked about the same as what they are right now). Being 5'9" I think will be worth having slightly off proportions (although the two girls who have seen me nked that know I did LL have said my proportions, even standing up, look fine, and I pressed them both to tell me the truth and not lie).

How are you able to walk though, I thought Precice wasn't weight bearing? Do you mean with crutches/walker? Keep on doing what you're doing. If Dr. Paley believes your recovery will be fine at 8cm, go for it and don't look back. You might not need to do a second LL like me if you can get close to 5'9.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 31, 2015, 05:40:01 PM
I walk and stretch in the pool 3 hours a day. I always look like a grandpa afterwards from the wrinkly fingers and feet. PT is my full time job. And I'm a hardworker.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 02, 2015, 11:56:29 AM
The nerve pain that I used to have on my left leg when doing a straight leg raise is gone. So things are looking up for me. Now there's clicking on my left lags as well, but it doesn't bother me. I just hope that it doesn't cause me arthritis in the future, because it is the sound of my knees rubbing against the joints. They haven't told me to stop lengthening yet, so I am hopeful. Only 20 more days of lengthening left!!!! I can see the light!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: mb53 on September 02, 2015, 03:48:13 PM
What's the deal with this procedure and alcohol? I know cigarettes are obviously a no-go. But I'm a little over halfway done and this surgery stresses the hell out of me. There are times I could really use a drink.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 02, 2015, 04:11:41 PM
Alcohol reacts with your drugs.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 04, 2015, 09:01:21 AM
18 more days and hopefully I can go home. Clicking noises in my legs are getting louder. One of the theories is that the nails bent enough to cause a gap between the rod and the bone. And the clicking is the rod rattling inside my leg. There's also clicking in my knee caps that's normal with tightness at this stage. Either way, I am still a go for 8 cm and my next X-ray and appointment is with Dr. Paley next Friday. I should be at 7 cm then (7.4 cm according to X-ray). So far my adductors are tight and my hamstrings are tights. I can only leg raise on my right leg to 70 degrees (85 on the left). The cut off point is 65 before they stop my lengthening. Luckily I got from 65 to 70 when I at 4.5 cm. I am working extra hard to at least keep it at 70 degrees so they give me the go ahead for 8 cm. One patient managed to get from 70 back to 90 by the time he got to 8 cm. Challenge accepted!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: goldenegg on September 04, 2015, 01:12:46 PM
Hey Doingitforme,  glad to hear that you're going strong in the final stretch.  It's amazing that patients are actually able to gain flexibility during lengthening!  I can't imagine the amount of dedication to PT required to do this.

Just wondering to what point are bent nails acceptable?  I've read some diaries of bent nails that need to be replaced, but others like yours and programdude where slight bends are ok and can keep lengthening. Would really love to hear Dr. Paley's thoughts, if any, he shared with you on how much bending is considered ok.  Also if there is any concern about the bone healing curved?  Really appreciate it!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on September 04, 2015, 05:50:06 PM
Hey bro.  Are you doing the stretching sessions alone when you're not at physical therapy?  Would it be better to hire someone to help me?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: mb53 on September 04, 2015, 10:01:34 PM
Hey bro.  Are you doing the stretching sessions alone when you're not at physical therapy?  Would it be better to hire someone to help me?

I'm not the OP but I'm also a Paley patient and I much prefer stretching on my own. I can't do all of them but I can do the vast majority.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 05, 2015, 05:43:00 AM
It's possible to do the stretching on your own. I'm assuming that the nails can bend slightly as long as it is still lengthening. The ones who have to stop are probably the ones who fracture their bones or if the nails stop lengthening. I mean, my bones are adapting to the bent nails. It is growing around it and conforming to the shape. It'll probably be really hard to take out while bent though. Which is why I think programdude had hip pain after having his rods removed. The doctor must have had to use a lot of force to remove the bent rods.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 05, 2015, 05:50:41 PM
I asked Paley and he said that my xrays are perfect and that the slight bend is normal. He said that it's even desirable to have the bend for alignment reasons. According to my distraction machine, I distracted 68 mm by the end of the day. Which would mean that I should be around 6.4 cm taller right now.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: goldenegg on September 05, 2015, 10:15:03 PM
I asked Paley and he said that my xrays are perfect and that the slight bend is normal. He said that it's even desirable to have the bend for alignment reasons. According to my distraction machine, I distracted 68 mm by the end of the day. Which would mean that I should be around 6.4 cm taller right now.

Great info.  Thanks for asking!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 06, 2015, 02:39:08 AM
Good to know things are going well for ya at least. Keep it up! Also I'd love to hear more stories about your time with other patients who are undergoing LL (I think at least knowing that there is a chance to experience this with others sure does help); but that also begs the question of just how many people undergo LL at any point in time.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 06, 2015, 04:55:54 PM
I will talk about other patients after I am done lengthening. I don't want retaliation for saying negative things that happened to the other patients.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 07, 2015, 03:46:30 AM
Ahh I see, makes sense for the most part. Hopefully there wasn't anything too negative that might have happened to the other patients you were with. Like I said man keep it up, you seem to be doing great and your more constant feedback has been inspirational for me especially considering our similar circumstances. I do wish you well! (Even though you never did actually answer my question regarding your inseam lol). Godspeed.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 07, 2015, 06:18:47 AM
I don't know my inseam. There were a bunch of mistakes made by Paley/Paley's team. And several negative experiences (like make patients and parents cry type of situations). I will not elaborate because I fear retaliation. It is not hard to figure out which patient I am, since I am one of the only one within the group of patients who doesn't have a problem. I am one of the lucky ones. Perhaps those patients will write their own diaries explaining their negative experiences. But I really don't want to get on Paley's bad side, since I am still being treated by him. Plus, nothing bad happened to me, so I have nothing bad to say in my own experience other than not getting Oxycontin from the very start.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 07, 2015, 06:24:36 AM
There are about 8 other CLL patients that I know of right now. So I'd say around 7 CLL patients a month. Most patients are not doing it cosmetically. Lots of small children here. You really bound with the other CLL patients. Except there are stuck-up ones who think that they're too good to talk to other people.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Uppland on September 07, 2015, 12:58:14 PM
I will talk about other patients after I am done lengthening. I don't want retaliation for saying negative things that happened to the other patients.

Would Paley really do that, do you get that kind of vibe from him?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 07, 2015, 02:45:13 PM
I don't know if non-cosmetic LL and cosmetic LL complications can be placed under the same scrutiny. People doing it because they had an accident are bound to have more complications than someone that had his leg tenderly surgically broken.

Out of the cosmetic LL patients, how many are doing well?

And all the best! :D
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 07, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Would Paley really do that, do you get that kind of vibe from him?
Dr. Paley really likes me. I'm like his star patient. He even gave me his personal cell phone number that I can get immediate access/questions from him. I do not want to ruin that type of relationship I have with him. Sorry, but you're going to have to hear about the negative experiences from others.

Here's my honest opinion about him though: He's a very safe doctor. He'll stop you short of your goal if he thinks you might damage yourself permanently. That's why a lot of patients are upset. I'm the only one in my group that's actually heading towards 8 cm without nerve damage. Others have stopped around 7 cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 07, 2015, 06:39:20 PM
Out of the cosmetic LL patients, how many are doing well?
Depends on your definition of "doing well". Out of the patients that I've talked to, it seems like I'm the luckiest among the group, with no nerve damage, good flexibility, excellent rate of bone consolidation (not too slow/not too fast) and good probability to head to 8 cm. I'd say around 50% of the patients I know have at least one problem in that list. But nobody has a bent nail even after making mistakes. It seems like the nails can handle more than 75 lbs. Nobody is crippled or anything like that. Dr. Paley is very safe. You just might not get to your 8 cm goal, because of how cautious he is. He told me the story of someone disobeying him and continuing his lengthening even after he told him to stop. That patient ended up with a dropped foot. Then there was even a doctor who finished lengthened, went home, and thought that he could weight bear, even though Dr. Paley didn't give him the OK. He was cky, and when he took 4 steps without crutches, he broke his nails at home.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 07, 2015, 08:15:12 PM
I see makes sense really. It's at least not as bad as it sounded originally (the whole patients and parents crying make it seem horrid) as it's a lot better to be safe then sorry; an aspect I respect greatly of Paley. I'm sort of more interested in the social and daily experiences one might have with the other patients. I do however find it funny that some seem to be stuck-up like you said they were... considering the process they're currently going through. Keep vigilant mate, it seems like you're on the fast track to a great recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 07, 2015, 09:07:42 PM
That's good to know. I'm surprised so many had complications though. Hopefully you keep the 'star patient' badge intact throughout.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 07, 2015, 09:17:14 PM
I see makes sense really. It's at least not as bad as it sounded originally (the whole patients and parents crying make it seem horrid) as it's a lot better to be safe then sorry; an aspect I respect greatly of Paley. I'm sort of more interested in the social and daily experiences one might have with the other patients. I do however find it funny that some seem to be stuck-up like you said they were... considering the process they're currently going through. Keep vigilant mate, it seems like you're on the fast track to a great recovery.
the crying is because someone might have permanent toe functionality loss and will probably get to 4-5 cm at most.

You make friends with other patients and it becomes like a family. Time passes faster when you have friends to hang out with. Except if you're that stuck up kid who doesn't want to socialize with anyone. Whatever. His loss.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 07, 2015, 09:21:07 PM
Except if you're that stuck up kid who doesn't want to socialize with anyone. Whatever. His loss.
That 'snob' really seems to have rustled your jimmies. Go into detail, I wanna know more.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on September 08, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
You are probably mistaking snobbishness with shyness.  He probably doesn't know how to respond.  Might even be scared. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 08, 2015, 09:10:29 AM
You are probably mistaking snobbishness with shyness.  He probably doesn't know how to respond.  Might even be scared.

Perhaps, but this isn't his first LL. He's already above average height, and he's going for more. When I tried to talk to him, he ignored me and even lied to me when I asked if he did his femurs already, too. It was later on that the other patients told me that he doesn't talk to anyone because he's snobbish. They told me that he likes to brag about his accomplishments by keeping a list of them on the back of his phone. He's not worth wasting more of my time talking about. My.point was to only illustrate that you will meet different types of people: self-made millionaires, patients who come from old money and parents are paying for it (mostly these), intelligent people who made it on their own and also have wealthy parents, as well as people with an arrogant attitude.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on September 08, 2015, 03:03:06 PM
the crying is because someone might have permanent toe functionality loss and will probably get to 4-5 cm at most.


oh :( nerve damage? whose fault was it?

I remember polycrates had something like this.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 08, 2015, 03:44:45 PM
oh :( nerve damage? whose fault was it?

I remember polycrates had something like this.
Again, I am scared of retaliation, so I do not want to talk about other patients yet. It will be very likely that the ones with negative experiences will elaborate further and write their own diaries. But please just let me finish lengthening without pissing anyone off. Just two more weeks.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on September 08, 2015, 05:02:18 PM
Again, I am scared of retaliation, so I do not want to talk about other patients yet. It will be very likely that the ones with negative experiences will elaborate further and write their own diaries. But please just let me finish lengthening without pissing anyone off. Just two more weeks.

cool. you're doing us a favor already by maintaining a diary.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 09, 2015, 02:46:23 AM
13 more days of lengthening left. Taking final measurements tomorrow morning to find out if I'm okay to go for 8 cm. PTs think I can. Measurements will tell me if I can or can't. Wish me luck.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: ouroboros on September 10, 2015, 06:36:33 AM
You've come all this way......you inspire us all...
Good luck!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 11, 2015, 06:35:38 PM
Met with Dr. Paley. Everything is going great.  I have 90 degree leg raise (increased from 65 degrees a month ago). My leg raise was 90 degree prior to surgery, so I basically am back to close to what I was before. I am at 7.1 cm after 73 days of lengthening. He suggested that I slow down to .75 mm per day to relieve the pain and make my consolidation faster. I will take his advice and slow down. It will only add 3 more days of lengthening, so I don't mind it. He said it will help me consolidate faster than the 3 days added. So I'd be better off in the long term.

I have no nerve pain or any other problems. I have a successful lengthening, and I would suggest doing a lot of PT yourself. It helped a lot to increase my flexibility. I suggest taking a lot of pain meds to make up for the pain that the extra PT causes. The other patients who don't do PT at home have nerve pain and aren't doing as well as me. But they have less pain than me. I rather have the pain and better end results. The pain meds help make it so that the pain is minimized.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: llb on September 11, 2015, 11:30:11 PM
Hi DoingItForMe
Congrats on your progress!
Im undergoing limb lengthening surgery next week. Is there any value in doing  the pre-operative stretching?
Is there anything else (supplements etc) I should do?
Thanks
llb
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 12, 2015, 09:00:42 AM
Hi DoingItForMe
Congrats on your progress!
Im undergoing limb lengthening surgery next week. Is there any value in doing  the pre-operative stretching?
Is there anything else (supplements etc) I should do?
Thanks
llb
Paley said that stretching before surgery, especially only a week before surgery, will do nothing for you. But stretching after surgery is very very important. I am only doing this well because I stretched every single day, even when my body screamed at me to stop. But I will also tell you that I was very flexible prior to surgery, and that helped a lot. The muscles in my legs did the opposite, though. I hope you've been skipping leg day, because my right leg is stronger that my left leg, and it had the hardest time stretching. I wish my legs weren't so muscular going into surgery. Programdude would probably agree with me that the muscles work against the lengthening.

Get Silica supplements, which is really just calcium and vitamin D supplements. Buy some Tylenol. Get some heat pads and ice packs. I have a whole list of tips at the beginning of this diary. Read them. Good luck.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 13, 2015, 05:16:23 AM
Perhaps, but this isn't his first LL. He's already above average height, and he's going for more. When I tried to talk to him, he ignored me and even lied to me when I asked if he did his femurs already, too.

I'd just like to point out that I just realized this is probably another guy from the old forum who's currently undergoing LL. It took me awhile but putting two and two together...yeah I'm sure it's him. lol

Anyways, good to see things are going well for you, guess things will wrap up for you on August 23rd huh?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 18, 2015, 11:12:12 AM
The pain has gone down significantly a week after slowing down my lengthening to .75 mm a day. I would recommend this to anyone who had a lot of pain towards the end and want an easier time. Before, the pain hovered around 7-8 when off Oxycodone. Now it is a 3-5 when off Oxycodone. Nothing else changed. Still doing a lot of PT. This is looking hopeful for me as I feared that the pain would stay forever. But it appears that the pain goes away a week after you stop lengthening, according to another patient who finished.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 18, 2015, 01:14:44 PM
Good to see you're doing well. How much have you lengthened so far?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 19, 2015, 09:11:14 AM
I'm somewhere between 7.6 and 8.0 cm. I am not sure because the X-rays have a margin of error of 5%. I'm just going to keep lengthening until I see Paley again next Friday. But technically, I should have either been done already or very close to finishing. Today is my 82nd day lengthening. I'm going to be lengthening for 90 days, just to make sure that I get the full 8 cm. Paley said that the Precice 2 will automatically prevent me from lengthening further. There's no way to tell when I've hit 8 cm, but the nail will just not keep lengthening past 8 cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 19, 2015, 09:23:02 AM
That's awesome. How do you feel being 3 inches taller? :P
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 19, 2015, 12:01:31 PM
That's awesome. How do you feel being 3 inches taller? :P
I already felt awesome at 2 inches taller; not so much at 1 inch taller. At 3 inches taller, I can officially say that I'm not short anymore and I am excited and super happy. It feels like I've been given a second chance at life. I look around and almost every girl is shorter than me. Before, they were around the same height as me and half the times taller. And for males, they are similar height as me now, so they can't call me short anymore or view me as short. A lot of the male LLs also started and ended at the same height as me. When I look at them, they look normal height now after being 3 inches taller. I might even say that they look tall due to their new proportions - long legs, short torso. So if I can view a fellow male at that height as tall, then I'm assuming that other people will view me the same. The change from 5'5"-5'6" to 5'8"-5'9" is significant in terms of the way I view myself. Will I do my tibs as well and go above average height? No. I'm not a very greedy person by nature. I just want to be viewed as an equal and not abuse this surgery as a chance to look down on others (literally).

There are other reasons why I don't want to do the surgery again. I've lost many things during this surgery. I've lost my long term girlfriend, who lost a lot of respect for me doing this surgery as well as while I was recovering/lengthening. I've lost 6 months of my free time - and possibly 8-12 months if I do my tibs. I came into the surgery thinking that I could do work during the 3 months at the hotel, or at least read a book or learn new things. But no, most of the day is either physical therapy or being high on drugs or suffering in pain. I don't recommend doing any work during those 3 months of lengthening. I'm not so sure what will happen now, now that I'm about to stop lengthening. I will report back later on that. I am still on Oxycodone, so I still don't think I can work yet. I still wake up with pain in the middle of the night. Found out last night. But I was able to go back to sleep without popping another oxy like I had to do before.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on September 19, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
Congratulations on feeling better about yourself.  It is a long, difficult process, but worth it, I think.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on September 19, 2015, 09:47:06 PM
Good to see you're doing great. :) How painful would you rate the Precice process on 10?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 19, 2015, 10:50:47 PM
Great to see things are going so good for you mate. Sure, you've had some bad things to overcome, but considering you're new outlook on life I'm sure you're gonna enjoy it greatly. So what do you now plan on doing once you're lengthening face is over? I'm sure you will go home and have to worry about consolidation, but how about activity here on the forums? I ask only because I'm sure, like I know I would, I'd like to put this completely behind me and move on never have to think about LL ever again.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 21, 2015, 03:32:19 PM
It is worth it. I would recommend it to anyone who has ever felt height discrimination and want to feel happier knowing that it will no longer happen. It is a very painful process, and there are risks involved. I'm very lucky to not have any of those risks happen.

The lengthening part doesn't hurt at all with the precice machine. But I had a lot of muscular pain from it being stretched to its limit. My puberty also stopped a decade ago, so my body probably expecting growth. There's a teenager here who stopped taking pain medications since like the second week. So if you're young, it's not as painful as when you're older.

Consolidation turns out to be another difficult process, because you have to set your home up to be handicap accessible, which my home isn't. I had to learn to use the crutches to go up and down the stairs. There are no ramps in my house. Also at home, there is no hotel maid to take my trash out. That's probably the only thing I can't do on my own. Since I live alone, I plan on hiring a caretaker to help me with that, as well as help me buy groceries and cook some meals for me.

I will try to stay active in the forums until I can walk and run normally again. After that, I don't think you'd learn much more about process from me anymore, because I've written a lot of details already. Maybe I'll stop by again when I remove the rods.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 22, 2015, 11:33:37 AM
I'd just like to point out that I just realized this is probably another guy from the old forum who's currently undergoing LL. It took me awhile but putting two and two together...yeah I'm sure it's him. lol
I initially thought that as well, but that user said that he was staying at Springfield and not Homewood Suites. The guy I was talking about was staying at Homewood Suites. And their heights don't match.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 06, 2015, 10:58:32 AM
Just stopping by to let you guys know that I've reached all 8 cm and the pain dropped drastically after the lengthening stopped. I still feel pain on my thigh muscles when I bend my knees too much, but luckily I can bend my knee past 100 degrees, so it's not a big issue. I also still feel some kind of stiffness in my thigh muscles when I wake up. I'm not sure if it's because I don't sleep with my legs straight or because of the leg exercises I do during the day. But the knee pain is completely gone. That was one of my worries in the past.

I am significantly less flexible than when I started out, but I hope to regain this flexibility over time. It's not a big deal to me if I don't, though. If I had stopped at 6-7 cm, I'd probably have much of my flexibility back by now. The last cm really made me much less flexible. Something to think about for future LL patients. Paley said that my bone growth is slow, so I'm stuffing myself with calcium and vitamin D. I'm also using an Exogen 4000+ machine to try to speed up growth. Paley said that it wouldn't help much, but it doesn't hurt to use it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on October 06, 2015, 11:26:27 AM
Good to see you're overall doing well. ;D
Hope the edges get rounded off soon.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on October 06, 2015, 02:23:08 PM
Ahh very nice. I was just about to ask how are things going. Anyways, are you still in WPB? How long do you expect the consolidation to take and what are you gonna do in the mean time? Best of luck :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: concernedmom on October 06, 2015, 05:32:47 PM
Just stopping by to let you guys know that I've reached all 8 cm and the pain dropped drastically after the lengthening stopped. I still feel pain on my thigh muscles when I bend my knees too much, but luckily I can bend my knee past 100 degrees, so it's not a big issue. I also still feel some kind of stiffness in my thigh muscles when I wake up. I'm not sure if it's because I don't sleep with my legs straight or because of the leg exercises I do during the day. But the knee pain is completely gone. That was one of my worries in the past.

I am significantly less flexible than when I started out, but I hope to regain this flexibility over time. It's not a big deal to me if I don't, though. If I had stopped at 6-7 cm, I'd probably have much of my flexibility back by now. The last cm really made me much less flexible. Something to think about for future LL patients. Paley said that my bone growth is slow, so I'm stuffing myself with calcium and vitamin D. I'm also using an Exogen 4000+ machine to try to speed up growth. Paley said that it wouldn't help much, but it doesn't hurt to use it.
how are the scars on the femurs?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 06, 2015, 05:48:55 PM
Ahh very nice. I was just about to ask how are things going. Anyways, are you still in WPB? How long do you expect the consolidation to take and what are you gonna do in the mean time? Best of luck :)

I've been home for a few days. Expectation for consolidation is 3 months according to my slow bone growth. Paley said that the fastest was a patient consolidated was 1 month. The slowest was 5 months. Most will take 2-3 months. I'll be returning to take a shot of Zometa. Paley said that he usually gives these to patients who are showing slow bone growth after a month. I asked him why wait a month, and why not just take it now so that I can consolidate faster. He said that there aren't many cons to taking it besides a high chance of fever, constipation, and nausea for a day (~40% chance) - possibly several days.  The cost of the medicine is around $1,000 (maybe $300 if you get the generic brand). I'm not sure how much it'd be with all the other fees thrown in. I'll report back when I get the final number. So with the Exogen 4000+ and the Zometa shot, I hope to cut down my consolidation period down from 3 months to 2 months. Paley said that it's a possibility that will happen if I did this. Getting a month of my life back for about $1000 and a day or two of fever is worth it in my situation. Right now, I feel like a prisoner of my own body, because I can't walk. This means that I can't do many things without much hassle, such as getting groceries, exercising, taking out the trash, or traveling. Even showering is troublesome.

So I scheduled to have the Zometa shot this week at the cancer portion of the hospital. Dr. Paley's office doesn't administer the drug. The drug is usually given to cancer patients or patients suffering from osteoporosis. If you don't know what the drug is, it's a Bisphosphonate, which is a class of drugs that stops the loss of bone mass. It doesn't stimulate bone growth - that's what the Exogen is for. But it prevents the body from breaking down bone and putting calcium in the blood stream. The goal is to prevent my body from breaking down the newly formed bone in my femurs, so that I can consolidate faster. What do you guys think of this? Do you think I should or shouldn't take the Zometa?

I'm starting to drink a lot of Vitamin D and Calcium fortified milk (40% daily calcium per cup) on top of taking the Silica bone supplements (50% daily calcium, 1000 IU vitamin D) and Vitamin D pills (50,000 IU once per week).

The scars are pretty bad. They haven't gone away and show no sign of fading except where my IT band scar is. At least they aren't hard and not a bump anymore. Paley told me that Asians seem to develop dark pigmentation in the scars more likely than non-Asians in his experience. Dr. Packer told me that they wouldn't go away for about a year. I had a scar once from about a decade ago that also was dark colored. It didn't go away for about 2-3 years. Now it's flesh colored and barely noticeable unless I point it out. Having dark leg hair helps to cover them. This is where being a male helps in terms of scars. Also it doesn't matter, because even if the scars heal, I'd get the same scars when I take the rods out in a year - minus IT band release scar and femur break point scar.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on October 06, 2015, 08:33:47 PM
I can't advice you on that. It seems like a far more different approach to what others have done in the past. Just wait for either Yellow, or Programdude to respond on this one. But if the benefits are well documented and what not, and there shouldn't be any serious complications from this treatment then I myself wouldn't mind doing it.

Other then that it is good you're at least not suffering from that much pain since your lengthening phase is done and out; it really does seem like you're 40-50% done with this at least. Anything in particular that you're gonna be doing for the next couple of months to ensure maximum recovery. I'm sure continuing PT or movement can be the best course of action.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: BelowTheMean on October 06, 2015, 08:42:20 PM
Congrats on finishing your lengthening and good luck on consolidation!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 07, 2015, 03:17:48 AM
I can't advice you on that. It seems like a far more different approach to what others have done in the past. Just wait for either Yellow, or Programdude to respond on this one. But if the benefits are well documented and what not, and there shouldn't be any serious complications from this treatment then I myself wouldn't mind doing it.

Other then that it is good you're at least not suffering from that much pain since your lengthening phase is done and out; it really does seem like you're 40-50% done with this at least. Anything in particular that you're gonna be doing for the next couple of months to ensure maximum recovery. I'm sure continuing PT or movement can be the best course of action.

Paley told me that he's been using it for 10 years now for situations where the bone growth is not as fast as it should be. He also sent me an article on patients who used this stuff for limb lengthening, and that it did indeed cut down the consolidation period significantly. It was something like the teenagers studied on average were consolidating slowly at 110 days per cm lengthened (normally it's around 30 days per cm lengthened). And then they used the drugs, and it decreased by 40 days per cm down to 70 days per cm lengthened for consolidation. That may sound like a long time, but apparently if you use external fixators, it takes that long to consolidate. Because I have internal rods that already support 75 lbs each, I only have to consolidate enough to support an additional 75 lbs on top of the internal rods to be fully weight bearing on each leg. That's why the months until I can walk without support is on average only 3 months post lengthening. But the average time to play sports/jumping is 5-6 months post lengthening. And I think it'll take about 8 months (if we assume the average of 30 days per cm lengthened) to fully consolidate. That would explain why people remove the rods a year after surgery. That would be 3 months of lengthening + 8 months of consolidation + one month buffer.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 11, 2015, 05:57:48 PM
Just wanted to update you guys to let you know that I can confirm that I am regaining flexibility rather quickly even though the amount of PT I do has dropped. This isn't from a measured way, but I can visibly see that my knee bend is getting better. It looks like I'm bending 10-20 degrees more than when I finished lengthening a few weeks ago. Whether I'd regain back all the flexibility I had since the before surgery, I don't know. Most likely not, because I think some tendons are almost impossible to stretch. The reason why my knee bend is getting better is because it's mostly my thigh muscles that are holding it back from bending.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: bluebarbie on October 12, 2015, 04:38:52 AM
Hi, DoingItFor me..umm I didn't know that internal femurs effects knee bending. How much can u bend now, is it past 90 degrees? How much was it when u were at ur last lenghtenings? How is the feelings ,like stiff quad muscles, rusty knees, any pain when u bend ur knees? Sorry for many questions. Good luck and wish u the fastest recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 12, 2015, 05:25:29 AM
Hi, DoingItFor me..umm I didn't know that internal femurs effects knee bending. How much can u bend now, is it past 90 degrees? How much was it when u were at ur last lenghtenings? How is the feelings ,like stiff quad muscles, rusty knees, any pain when u bend ur knees? Sorry for many questions. Good luck and wish u the fastest recovery.

With femur lengthening, the problem is that my quad muscles get overstretched and prevent me from bending my knees fully. I used to have creaky noises coming from my knees when I was lengthening. But when I stopped, all the noises and clicking sounds went away. The pain I feel when bending my knees comes from the overstretched quad muscles. The feeling is similar to if someone was pulling your finger too far back.

I was always able to bend my knees past 90 degrees, and this was due to the amount of PT I did during lengthening. Dr. Paley would have stopped my lengthening process or slowed it down if I couldn't get past certain flexibility measurements - one of which is the 90 degree knee bend, because that would have made sitting very painful. So I worked really hard each day to stretch my legs. From 5 cm to 7 cm, I was even able to improve my flexibility - I think went from 120 degrees to 135, I forget. From 7 cm to 8 cm, I don't know. They never measured me again at 8 cm, because I was already done, and measuring my flexibility will do nothing for me. Having said that, my knee bend at the end of lengthening was probably at 100-110 degrees and decreased significantly from when I was at 7 cm. Now it's closer to maybe 130 degrees or more. Prior to surgery I was able to bend it to around 170 degrees and was only stopped by my ankles touching my butt.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: bluebarbie on October 12, 2015, 06:17:17 AM
Thank u for answering my questions , I'm sure u will gain back up full flexibility and Roms back very soon. For me I'm still at around 90 and working full time on gaining full flexion coz I did external with Latn. It has been nearly 3 months aldy after nail exchange. Improving but very slow.
I m sure ull be all flexible and can bend smoothly and easily around this time of mine. Wish u a fast recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: bluebarbie on October 12, 2015, 06:20:52 AM
Thank u for answering my questions , I'm sure u will gain back up full flexibility and Roms back very soon. For me I'm still at around 90 and working full time on gaining full flexion coz I did external with Latn. It has been nearly 3 months aldy after nail exchange. Improving but very slow.
I m sure ull be all flexible and can bend smoothly and easily around this time of mine. Wish u a fast recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 12, 2015, 03:02:09 PM
Thank u for answering my questions , I'm sure u will gain back up full flexibility and Roms back very soon. For me I'm still at around 90 and working full time on gaining full flexion coz I did external with Latn. It has been nearly 3 months aldy after nail exchange. Improving but very slow.
I m sure ull be all flexible and can bend smoothly and easily around this time of mine. Wish u a fast recovery.

Thanks. Good luck with your recovery as well. What I did to regain my flexibility so quickly was stretch whenever I thought about it. I don't set aside a time for it. I just do it whenever I think about it. So I spend around 3-4 hours a day stretching when you add it all up.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on October 15, 2015, 03:33:02 AM
so there's no overdoing it when it comes to stretching?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Uppland on October 15, 2015, 11:23:50 PM
so there's no overdoing it when it comes to stretching?

You can always overdo things, programdude had his femur snap in half during a stretching session.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 15, 2015, 11:35:45 PM
so there's no overdoing it when it comes to stretching?

The thing is that I'm stretching frequently and not really pushing super hard. I am afraid of snapping my leg, especially after what happened to ProgramDude. The key is stretching for long periods of time, but not necessarily stretching too hard. Also, don't bounce. Just stretch until you feel a stretch (some pain, but not so much that you feel unbearable level 10 pain), and then hold it for a minute. Then just keep doing this throughout the day. This is how I'm regaining my flexibility at a pretty fast pace. My thighs feel stiff and sore every morning after long stretching sessions, but it loosens up again after a few stretches. I'm very happy at the pace that I'm regaining my flexibility in terms of knee bend - the one thing I've been working on the most. It's motivating when you can see the progress with your nked eye. It's only been less than a month after I stopped lengthening, and I'm already at around 140 degrees in terms of knee bending. I was probably at 100 degrees when stopped lengthening. My goal is to be able to bend it all the way at 170 degrees. So I'm happy with the progress.

For stretching my hip flexors (i.e. fixing duckass), I try sleeping on my stomach for a bit to try to straighten out my body. I hold it for maybe 10-30 minutes, and then I go to sleep.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Genetic_solutions on October 20, 2015, 04:36:23 AM
Hey, man 
Hope you have a great recovery! When do you think that you can walk independently without support?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: programdude on October 20, 2015, 08:49:00 PM
I wouldn't call it a stretching session- one simple casual stretch was all it took on the bones- months after removal where I was not only allowed but encouraged to stretch during.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: lumiere on October 20, 2015, 09:04:28 PM
I've read just the last updates about stretching. The better thing in my opinion is don't think too much about stretching during the lengthening and consolidation phase, moreover after the frame/nail remotion. Regular walking, stairs walking, etc, would be enough, things will improve by theirself. I would start stretching when bones are REALLY strong enough to prevent bending and bones breaking, for instance after one year from remotion (in the case of external fixation).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 21, 2015, 10:46:23 PM
Hey, man 
Hope you have a great recovery! When do you think that you can walk independently without support?

The expected recovery time until I can walk again without support is 3 months after I stopped lengthening. And then sports/running/jumping would be 2 months after that. Some people take only 2 months if their bone growth is fast. Mine has been slow while I was lengthening. But now I'm drinking a lot of milk (calcium & vit D.) and using an exogen machine daily. Exogen might not work. I read somewhere where it only worked for 1 out of 3 patients. And then for those it worked on, it increased recovery by up to around 30%. So if I'm one of the lucky ones where the machine works on and I get the max growth rate, then I might be able to walk again in 2 months. But knowing how unlucky I've been most of my life, I'd guess 3 months is more likely. I'll be happy with 3 months recovery time. Some people have five months recovery time.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 23, 2015, 12:33:47 AM
Just wanted to give an update that my scars are shrinking. I thought that they were going to fade in color first like the other patients, but after looking at it carefully, I noticed that they were actually shrinking. The outside of the scars is slowly turning into flesh color. My IT band scar is about 90% flesh color now. The parts that are still dark are the two holes on either end of the IT band scar. Dr. Paley told me that most likely this will never go away unless I have laser removal surgery. The flesh-colored portion is still a visible scar, but at least it's not noticeable unless you point it out.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on October 23, 2015, 12:42:55 AM
Where exactly are these scares located at? Do you think if you don't ever get laser removal you can easily hide it? Also would you even consider laser removal lol?

Anyways good to hear from you. I must ask how's your set up in your home as you are going through with consolidation?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on October 23, 2015, 05:07:23 AM
that's awesome DoingItForMe! Can you upload pics of scars and proportions?

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 23, 2015, 04:49:11 PM
Where exactly are these scares located at? Do you think if you don't ever get laser removal you can easily hide it? Also would you even consider laser removal lol?

Anyways good to hear from you. I must ask how's your set up in your home as you are going through with consolidation?

They're located along the outside of your legs, almost in a straight line if you connect the dots. There's an IT band scar which is about 2.5 inches long and looks like someone cut you. That one is near the knee. Next up are two scars for the lower screws. They look like the size of your pinky's fingernail. Next up the leg is one dot where they chiseled and broke my femur. This one is small like the screw scars. Next up are two more scars where the top screws are. This is located around where your crotch starts. And then finally at the top of where your femur bone ends is a big scar that's about an inch long and 1/3 inch thick.

At the rate that the scars are healing, I'm pretty sure that these scars will go away eventually. And even if they don't, I'm going to end up with the same scars when I remove the rod. The only scars that will not reappear when removing the rods are the IT band ones and the ones used for breaking the femur. Luckily, those are the ones that are fading the fastest.

I might consider laser removal if the scars don't go away after rod removal. But most likely, I don't care, because I normally wear shorts or jeans that will cover the scars. The dot that Dr. Paley said will likely never go away will just look like a birthmark. The other scars will probably fade into flesh color.

My house is just set up like my hotel room. I put everything near my bed for easy access. I only have to get up to shower and poop and cook food. I can pretty much do everything on my own, except take out the trash and buy groceries. I have friends to help me out with that.

Sorry, no pics for now. I can describe it for you guys, though.

My proportions look fine. I asked my friends to look and they said that I looked fine. I actually like the way my thighs look now, because back then, I used to think that my thighs were pretty short. Especially when I sat down and looked down on my thighs, they looked stubby. Now they look like normal length. The thing is, if you wear your clothes a certain way, people can't really tell what your proportions are. Especially if you wear all black like a suit. Or even if you wear gym shorts, you can adjust how high up or down your gym shorts are on your body and change the visual proportions of our legs accordingly. When I took a picture of myself, I actually look pretty tall now, because of the illusion having longer legs.

I no longer think I'm short anymore, and can't wait to be able to walk again and put this whole ordeal behind me. It's only been slightly less than a month of consolidation, and it already feels like eternity. Time seems to slow down when you're stuck at home and can't really go out to do things. I've been swimming in my pool to pass time. That's the only thing that seems to help me pass time faster. It's also where most of my exercise comes from.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: mb53 on October 24, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
Have you started taking steps yet? Obviously not walking, but just like 1-3 steps around your bed.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on October 24, 2015, 08:09:57 PM
That's great to know. I personally see myself wearing suits all the time cause of my possible work profession and because who doesn't look gook in suits: especially when you have long legs it can look pretty good.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 25, 2015, 04:29:29 AM
Have you started taking steps yet? Obviously not walking, but just like 1-3 steps around your bed.
I don't dare take steps without crutches/walker yet. I'm not in a rush, and I'm taking this consolidation very cautiously, especially after what happened to programdude. My rule of thumb is that if it hurts, then I'm putting too much weight on my legs. I'm going to get my x-rays done next week, and I'll find out how I'm doing then. Hopefully Dr. Paley will give me the okay for some extra weight-bearing, because I'd like to at least lean to one side or the other. Before, if I lean even just a few inches, I put more than 75 lbs onto one leg.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 28, 2015, 11:02:18 PM
I'm getting closer and closer to being able to touch my butt with my ankles during a knee bend. I am only about 5-8 inches away depending on how hard I press down on my leg. If I had to take a rough guess, my knee bend is about 150 degrees. It appears that it's getting harder and harder to improve my knee bend. I was starting to doubt whether I'd get to touch my butt with my ankles again this week because of the slower progress. But if my progress does continue, I'd be able to do it by the end November. I'd be satisfied with being able to touch my butt with my ankles, because that was my original flexibility. The knee bend is the most important flexibility marker for me, because I want to be able to crouch fully. All other flexibility traits don't matter much to me, as I've never really needed to touch my toes while standing or being able to do a split.

It's now been a month after I stopped lengthening. I took an xray and the bone growth looks great on the left leg. Much more bone density than my previous xray a month ago. Paley increased my left leg's weightbearing to 100 lbs (up from 75). My combination of drinking a lot of milk, calcium supplements, and Exogen is working. Also I can't say with 100% certainty that Exogen did anything, because my right leg's growth is still slow. So no weightbearing increase for the right leg.

If Dr. Paley increased my weightbearing by 25 lbs after just a month. Then I only need two more months to get another 50 lb weightbearing increase. Which means that I should be able to fully weight bear on the left leg after 3 months of consolidation. I have no clue how long it'd take to weightbear on the right leg, since he didn't increase my weightbearing. I'm starting to think that my right leg's slow bone growth will be why I will not be able to walk without crutches until well into 2016. I have a Zometa injection scheduled in early December, in case my bone growth continues to be slow. The Zometa injection should help speed things up a bit. I'm going to wait until my 2nd month's xrays before I decide to take the injection.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on October 29, 2015, 08:29:23 AM
Good to see you're on the path to steady recovery. :)

I'm hoping I can walk 4.5 to 5 months after my surgery next year.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 29, 2015, 07:09:43 PM
Good to see you're on the path to steady recovery. :)

I'm hoping I can walk 4.5 to 5 months after my surgery next year.

Good to see you're on the path to steady recovery. :)

I'm hoping I can walk 4.5 to 5 months after my surgery next year.

That's very fast. Normally, the recovery time is equal to the lengthening time. In my case, that's 3 months of lengthening and 3 months of consolidation for a total of 6 months. If you want to be able to walk after 4.5 months to 5 months, you probably have to lengthen less or go with a higher weight-bearing rod.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 03, 2015, 08:37:59 PM
A week later... Update on my ankle to butt flexibility: I'm only about 3 inches away from touching my butt with my ankles if I push my leg towards it. So that's an improvement of about 2 inches per week. This is quite the improvement from when I stopped lengthening and could only bend my leg about 100 degrees. This means that I should be able to touch my ankle to my butt by the end of this month. Improved flexibility means that getting around is less painful, because I'm not stretching as much to move around. Stretching is my only source of pain right now - mainly my quad muscles.

Importance of stretching: So I did an experiment on myself to see if stretching actually improves flexibility significantly. I stopped stretching my right leg as much as my left leg just to see if there's a difference (in pain and stretching). And there was. My right leg is still around 6 inches away from reaching my butt. Not much improvement from a week ago. So if you're doing LL, be sure to stretch regularly! It makes a big difference. There wasn't a big difference in pain, though. I'm still waking up every morning with both my legs feeling really stiff and somewhat painful. Hopefully that will go away when I've reached my goal of being able to touch my ankles to my butt.

Maybe some LL veteran who experienced the same stiff leg pain can chime in and let me know if the pain ever goes away.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 11, 2015, 07:50:42 AM
I finally did it. I touched my thigh with the back of my ankle on my left leg. But this is with assistance from me pulling my foot towards it. Either way, I'm happy that I achieved the full 170 degrees on at least one leg. The other leg is still 3 inches away reaching the thigh. So I'm guessing that it'd take another week or two before that leg can reach my thighs.

If I don't assist my foot, my left ankle dangles 3 inches away from my thighs. I'm sure that in two weeks, it would be able to reach the thighs without assistance. At which point, it'd have only taken me two months to go from 90 degree flexibility to 170-180 degrees.

So I strongly believe that you can regain your flexibility if you really tried to. My butt used to be flat and missing when I was lengthening. It has now returned a bit. Still not as full as prior to surgery, but there's at least something now. When I'm able to do squats again, I'm sure that it'll fill back in.

Paley said that there's strong possibility that I'll be able to fully weight bear on the left leg after only 2 months after I stop lengthening. That'd be impressive, because I lengthened for 3 months. In my x-ray on the left leg, the bone growth looks like a big bulge. It's thicker than the original femur. No wonder why they say that a broken bone becomes stronger after it heals.

Also, I think Dr. Paley is very conservative with the weight bearing numbers. I'm very positive that I went past his weight bearing limits a few times by accident, and I turned out fine. I am about 90% certain that I am fully weight bearing already right now on the left leg, because I tried standing on one leg and slowly letting go of my walker. I didn't feel any pain like I used when I put too much weight on it. The right leg still feels a sharp pain if I tried the same. As soon as I felt the pain, I immediately stopped putting weight on it.

But keep in mind that this was only while standing. If I were to walk, it'd probably put more than my full weight on one leg because of the stomping action. But my theory is that Paley is very conservative with the weight bearing numbers. I'd prefer it that way, so that when he says that I can fully walk again, I'll know for sure that I can fully walk again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: bluebarbie on November 11, 2015, 08:57:58 AM
Congratulations on your achievement. I'm sure you'll regain your full flexibility very soon. Do you feel stiffness in your quads or any discomfort in your knees in the morning or when you have kept them straight for some time and suddenly try to bend them fully?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 12, 2015, 02:31:19 AM
Yes. I asked Dr. Paley about that and he said that it'd go away with time. I'm thinking that it has to do with the fact that I keep stretching my legs everyday to try to regain flexibility. So the pain is probably growing pains or my muscle fibers ripping and regrowing.

I tried taking a few steps today without much assistance with my walker. I was able to walk. But I was only willing to take a few steps. In an emergency, I think I'll be able to walk a few steps. It feels weird to walk unassisted. My legs feel very weak.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 24, 2015, 10:15:33 PM
Today's probably the first time in a long time that I didn't wake up with my legs feeling stiff or in pain. It's been almost exactly two months since I've stopped lengthening. Waking up to pain in my legs everyday for the rest of my life was one of my fears, even though Dr. Paley reassured me that it'd go away. But it's a great feeling when you know it has stopped. It's probably because I stopped forcing my quad muscles to stretch to regain flexibility. The only pain left in my legs is where the top end of my femur is. I suspect that it's the feeling of the ends of the screws rubbing against my flesh. That pain is only felt if I press down on that bony part of the femur or if I move my legs in an angle where the femur rubs against my flesh.

Today's also the first time I touched my right thigh with my right ankle. This means that I've been able to touch both thighs with both ankles now.

But I've stop making progress with touching my butt with my ankles on the left leg. I compared myself with my flexible friend who can do splits, and she wasn't able to touch her butt with her ankles without using her arms, too. So I guess it's normal for your ankles to be 3 inches or so away from your butt when you bend your knees with only your leg muscles. So I've stopped trying to stretch my legs further, because I wanted to know if the pain in my quad muscles would go away from all the stretching I've done. It did, and I hope stays that way.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 24, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
I forgot to mention that I hung out with a friend of mine who used to be taller than me. He noticed that I was taller. I asked him how tall he was, and he said 5' 10". I'm actually only about 5'9". But I looked about the same height as him, since I probably had thicker sole sneakers. Anyway, he thought that I was taller than him. He guessed that I was 5'11". I think this proves my point that a lot of people can't tell the difference between 1-2 inches. Even when it comes to celebrity heights, there are differing answers online, because it's hard to tell down to the inch how tall someone actually is just by looking at them. This helped with my height neurosis a lot, because 5'10" was my ideal height and goal. I can finally say without a doubt that I don't need any more height. I'm happy with what I have now.

Electric Wheelchairs
I mentioned in Iamready's journal about my electric wheelchair being a game changer, so I should probably mention that in my own journal as well in case someone only reads this one and not his. One of the things that people rarely mention in their journals is how useful an electric wheelchair is. Ever since I bought one, I use it everyday both during lengthening and during consolidation. It is much more convenient to be able to control the chair with one hand and use the other one to hold things or open doors. It's also foldable, so I can call an Uber and have them put it in their trunk. This means that I can go anywhere without needing someone to accompany me to push me around.

I went with one of the more expensive ones because of shipping time and features. The one I have has a long battery life. During day-to-day use, I only recharge maybe once every 2-3 weeks. It has a 10 hour battery life with a 3 mph speed limit. So that's about 30 miles in one charge.

This is the one I use that costs $2000 called Smart Chair:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EBXBC4K/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00EBXBC4K&linkCode=as2&tag=lilefo-20&linkId=UBS36HE3JSS7JULD

The one I have is the cheapest and best reviewed one I can find for fold-able electric wheelchairs. All of them seem to be built similarly from China, so I doubt that it matters which brand you buy. Here's one that's $1400 called LiteRider that I saw someone else use. It needs to be disassembled to fit in a trunk, but it says that it's easy to disassemble. I asked that person how she liked it, and she said it worked great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N501YSE/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00N501YSE&linkCode=as2&tag=lilefo-20&linkId=P5WGG54NGU4C2BMO

The above two ones are very small and have 360 degree in motion. That's what I like about them. You can go almost anywhere a normal person can go without much trouble - except for stairs. The ones that I don't like are the ones where you have to back-up to make a 180 turn. It's very annoying in narrow aisles and hallways. These are the ones you find at Walmart and the loud beeping noises when you reverse is annoying to everyone around you. The one I have doesn't have a reverse beeping noise, because you rarely have to reverse in the first place. You just rotate 360 degrees in place, and then start going in the direction that you want. This also makes going through lines at the bank easy with their sharp 90 degree turns.

But if you rather save money rather than have the convenience of lightweight and 360 motion, here's a $670 electric wheelchair:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GPGKN4G/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00GPGKN4G&linkCode=as2&tag=lilefo-20&linkId=WNAUTYRO7VMGPTW5

Crutches
When I first used regular crutches, they were very uncomfortable to use and they hurt my palms and armpits. But then the PT team and other patients recommended that I grab myself a pair of Mobilegs Ultra:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005I5OP6M/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B005I5OP6M&linkCode=as2&tag=lilefo-20&linkId=U52XE3CULK7MI537

They're much lighter than regular crutches, and feel much more comfortable. The arm pit rest are rubbery and spring loaded, so it feels comfortable to rest my body on my arm pits when I get tired. And the hand grips are ergonomic and conform with your hands. It feels natural to hold them. They also conveniently fit underneath my Smart Chair electric wheelchair.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on November 24, 2015, 10:36:06 PM
In terms of bone consolidation, where are you and how far until you can walk unaided? And how frequent is your contact with Paley or his staff during this process?

Good update, glad things are going well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 24, 2015, 11:04:46 PM
In terms of bone consolidation, where are you and how far until you can walk unaided? And how frequent is your contact with Paley or his staff during this process?

Good update, glad things are going well.
The last I did an x-ray and heard from Dr. Paley was a month ago. And he said that if my progress continues, I had about 1 month left in my left leg and undetermined time for the right leg. This means that I should be okay to walk next week on my left leg if my x-rays next week come back great. Dr. Paley was actually surprised by the improvement in bone consolidation last month. It was probably because I drank a lot of milk, used an Exogen 4000+ machine, and took extra calcium/vitamin D supplements.

I took a few baby steps without crutches lately to see if I could still walk, and it looked like it was possible. Another patient who did only 7.5 cm on his femurs and did his surgery a month earlier than me was walking a few weeks ago. When I saw his x-rays, he had a big fat rounded piece of bone where his gap used to be. It looked twice as thick as the rest of femurs. However, it still looked lighter colored than the rest of his femur. This means that the bone is chalky and not solidified yet. But it symbolizes bone union, and supports enough in combination with his internal nail to support his entire weight. Probably in 12-18 months, it'd be solidified and he'd be able to take out his rod.

I get an x-ray once a month, and contact Dr. Paley directly by email with my x-rays. He responds within the same day or the next day - usually very early in the morning or sometime around dinner time.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yagen on November 26, 2015, 04:10:38 PM

DoingitForMe,

Are you planing a new surgery in order to gain 2 cms more in the famur?
Is it possible to break the famur again? how long do you need to consolidate the previous broken?

Many Thanks
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 26, 2015, 08:15:40 PM
DoingitForMe,

Are you planing a new surgery in order to gain 2 cms more in the famur?
Is it possible to break the famur again? how long do you need to consolidate the previous broken?

Many Thanks
No, I don't plan on doing anymore surgery except to remove the nails inside of me. After going through what I went through, I don't want to do it again. It was worth it when I was gaining 3.1 inches and going from short to normal height. But it's not worth it to just go 2 cm more.

It's possible to break the femur again and then go through the whole process again. You have to wait until your femur consolidates first, though. And you probably risk losing a lot of your athleticism for it, because your soft tissues are already stretched to its limits. At that point, it probably is more worth it to just do your tibias. The precice nails in me already reached its maximum capacity at 8 cm. So if I want 2 cm more, I'd have to get a whole new nail.

Generally it takes 2-3 months after you stop lengthening to consolidate enough and be able to walk again. To fully consolidate and be able to remove the nail, it takes 12-18 months.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yagen on November 27, 2015, 07:50:03 AM

Thank you DoingItForMe

I didnt´t understand why do you want yo do just 2 cm.

Are you thinking in tibias or after the experience of this surgery is enough for you?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 27, 2015, 07:55:14 AM
Thank you DoingItForMe

I didnt´t understand why do you want yo do just 2 cm.

Are you thinking in tibias or after the experience of this surgery is enough for you?
I never planned on doing 2 cm more. You might be thinking of YellowSpike. I'm happy at where I am right now.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 02:45:39 AM
It feels good to be average height. I went to the mall yesterday in my crutches to try to work out my legs and to shop for longer pants - all my old ones don't fit anymore. I plan on walking without crutches some time within the next 30 days or so, so I thought it'd be a good time to start gaining back my legs muscles. First of all, it's very very tiring to walk around in crutches. I think I only walked like 1/4 mile before I got winded. Back then I could walk for miles. Secondly, wow. It's a completely different feel when you're 5'9" vs 5'6". I don't tower over people like a 6' guy would. But I do see people who used to be taller than me now shorter than me. Half the males are now shorter than me. Almost all girls not wearing heels are now shorter than me. And even the ones wearing heels are shorter than me. I'm very very happy that I'm 3" taller. It changed my mindset. No longer am I cursing myself for being born with short genetics - something I have no control over. Being short no longer crosses my mind. It doesn't matter that I'm still 1" shorter than the average white US male. I can't tell that I am. If I ever feel like being taller than average, I just have to put on my 4 cm shoe lifts. But I don't find them necessary anymore. I can walk around without shoe lifts and feel fine about it. Anyway, I'm very very happy with the results. I'm just getting very sick of being disabled. It hurt a lot when I walked yesterday, because my knees were weak and so were my gluts. When I went home, I had aches all over my legs. I don't even know if the pain would be permanent - though, I highly doubt that it is. But not knowing makes me question my decision to do LL. If I had pain for the rest of my life in my legs, would I still have gotten LL? I probably wouldn't have.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: theuprising on November 30, 2015, 03:56:15 AM
I've read from a couple of doctors that when you lengths femurs you don't get the entire lengthening amount due to angle of the bone or something like that. Are you 175cm all day or do you drop below?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on November 30, 2015, 05:18:37 AM
I've read from a couple of doctors that when you lengths femurs you don't get the entire lengthening amount due to angle of the bone or something like that. Are you 175cm all day or do you drop below?

Im curious to know Paleys take on this.. To me I've always thought it wouldn't matter because the bone was always at a slight angle and produced your natural height. It's still connected to the hip and knee so you would think a 5cm gap is a 5cm gap. All the people that have lengthened that I have read about, have gained the height that they lengthened....... Yet it also makes sense on a mathematical level that you wouldn't gain as much height as you lengthened.. Would be good to have this put to bed once and for all by the worlds leading surgeon in this area.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on November 30, 2015, 05:20:39 AM
Btw DIFM,

I'm 5"6 and it was truely cool reading about your experience at 5"9 at the mall. It's the way I envisioned it.

I feel very lucky to be 5"6 and have the opportunity to be within the lengthening range that will put me at average height.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 06:12:18 AM
I've read from a couple of doctors that when you lengths femurs you don't get the entire lengthening amount due to angle of the bone or something like that. Are you 175cm all day or do you drop below?
Sure, if you want to get that technical about it. The angle of my femur is 4.5 degrees - checked on Photoshop. If the longest side of the triangle is 8 cm, and two of the angles are 4.5 degrees and 90 degrees, what's the length of the 2nd longest side - meaning the actual height gained? Answer: 7.98 cm. That's .2 mm difference. So, you're kind of splitting hairs here. I mean, literally, that's like the width of two human hairs.

I'm not 175 cm all day, I'd assume. 175 cm is my morning height. I don't know my night height. I don't have the height measuring machine like they have at the doctor's office.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: theuprising on November 30, 2015, 06:30:03 AM
Sure, if you want to get that technical about it. The angle of my femur is 4.5 degrees - checked on Photoshop. If the longest side of the triangle is 8 cm, and two of the angles are 4.5 degrees and 90 degrees, what's the length of the 2nd longest side - meaning the actual height gained? Answer: 7.98 cm. That's .2 mm difference. So, you're kind of splitting hairs here. I mean, literally, that's like the width of two human hairs.

I'm not 175 cm all day, I'd assume. 175 cm is my morning height. I don't know my night height. I don't have the height measuring machine like they have at the doctor's office.

Wow just asking a question don't rage on me. yellowspike mentioned he got 0.5cm less so I was just curious. Most people usually use mid day height as well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 06:40:47 AM
Btw DIFM,

I'm 5"6 and it was truely cool reading about your experience at 5"9 at the mall. It's the way I envisioned it.

I feel very lucky to be 5"6 and have the opportunity to be within the lengthening range that will put me at average height.
Yea, the feeling is great, man. I wear some thick soled sneakers, so I'm closer to 5'10" than 5'9" with shoes on. And let me tell that it feels awesome to not have every male look down on you in the literal sense. I also now get to see how a 5'10" would view a 5'5" or 5'6" guy. And... I have to say, I get it. I get why tall guys discriminate against short males. Short males just look less intimidating.

Also, I see how it's so unfair it is for short guys to try to get girls. Even though I'm in crutches, girls talk to me more than when I was 5'6". Oh man, the difference is so significant. It reminds me of the difference between when a girl doesn't know I'm a millionaire and when they find out. Girls are just more chatty and interested in getting to know me more. Now that I'm average height and a millionaire as well, it's like playing the dating game on easy mode. Now I just need to get jacked up again. Muscle atrophy sucks when you're not allowed to go to the gym for half a year. The only muscle group I think that stayed the same or got bigger are my shoulders and traps, because of all the crutch/walker walking I had to do.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 06:46:13 AM
Wow just asking a question don't rage on me. yellowspike mentioned he got 0.5cm less so I was just curious. Most people usually use mid day height as well.
You misjudged my tone of voice if you thought I was raging.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 06:54:14 AM
Wow just asking a question don't rage on me. yellowspike mentioned he got 0.5cm less so I was just curious. Most people usually use mid day height as well.
I'm going to go by what Dr. Paley told me: When lengthening, you lose about 1 mm every 2 weeks. So if Yellowspike lengthened for 10 weeks (7 cm), he lost about 0.5 cm. And the reason is because the machine for lengthening is not 100%. However, Dr. Paley made sure that I got the full 8 cm, because I used the machine for 8.5+ cm of lengthening, just to make sure I squeezed every last bit of the rod. Finally, Dr. Paley uses the X-Rays to measure each femur up to the nearest mm. And he confirmed with me that I got the full 8 cm after 85-90 days of lengthening. I also knew that I reached the limits of the nail inside me, because I heard a clicking noise during the last few lengthening turns. That clicking noise as Dr. Paley told me is the sound of the clutch preventing the nail from turning further.

Anyway, I did the math, and you really only lose 2 mm out of the 8 cm due to the angle of your femur.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: theuprising on November 30, 2015, 07:55:47 AM
Interesting info it's good to read those in depth answers. Do you own a measuring tape? Typically height decreases 1.5cm from morning till evening and personally I've found that to be the case.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on November 30, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
Yea, the feeling is great, man. I wear some thick soled sneakers, so I'm closer to 5'10" than 5'9" with shoes on. And let me tell that it feels awesome to not have every male look down on you in the literal sense. I also now get to see how a 5'10" would view a 5'5" or 5'6" guy. And... I have to say, I get it. I get why tall guys discriminate against short males. Short males just look less intimidating.

Also, I see how it's so unfair it is for short guys to try to get girls. Even though I'm in crutches, girls talk to me more than when I was 5'6". Oh man, the difference is so significant. It reminds me of the difference between when a girl doesn't know I'm a millionaire and when they find out. Girls are just more chatty and interested in getting to know me more. Now that I'm average height and a millionaire as well, it's like playing the dating game on easy mode. Now I just need to get jacked up again. Muscle atrophy sucks when you're not allowed to go to the gym for half a year. The only muscle group I think that stayed the same or got bigger are my shoulders and traps, because of all the crutch/walker walking I had to do.

You can work out your upper body though right?? I can't go that long with out training.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on November 30, 2015, 11:02:53 PM
Interesting info it's good to read those in depth answers. Do you own a measuring tape? Typically height decreases 1.5cm from morning till evening and personally I've found that to be the case.
I do own a measuring tape. But I don't care enough to measure. I'm not caught up in the numbers game. I just know that I'm no longer considered short, which is a great feeling.

You can work out your upper body though right?? I can't go that long with out training.
You can, though getting around in a gym with crutches is difficult. I do dips on my walker, even though they told me not to. My upper body strength is fine. My friends even noticed that my upper body looks bigger. My legs are really weak, though. I have trouble even getting up off my bed with just my legs. I have to push up with my arms to get off the bed.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: bigdreams55 on December 02, 2015, 03:33:10 AM
Thanks for keeping this journal and glad to hear of your progress! I just had my consultation with Dr. Paley today, I'll include more in my own journal I will start soon, but I had a few questions for you.

1.) Did you/are you having to deal with isolation/loneliness? I don't think I want to involve friends/family because they would not be supportive, do you think its possible to go through LL mostly by yourself with just a caretaker at the beginning?

2.)Do you think it would be better to have this surgery when Paley's office is busiest (summer vs winter)? If one chooses the winter, you may be able to get more attention from the Drs, but at the cost of less CLLs to spend time with...

I can imagine you might be eager to put all this behind you and never look back and it sounds like you are happy with your decision to go through with this so far.



Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 02, 2015, 04:20:40 AM
Heard back from Dr. Paley after he received my 2-month post-op x-rays. He said that my left legs almost fully healed, but my right one is still slowly healing. I doubt that I will be able to walk this year without crutches. That sucks. That means that my recovery time will be 3+ months after I stopped lengthening. From the lack of response I get when I ask him what my expected healing time would be, it sounds like I will not be walking for another 2 months (4 months total consolidation time). This would put me towards the slowest ones to consolidate when the range is from 1 month to 5 months. Judging by the x-rays, it looks like my left leg will be done healing by the end of the year (3 month total consolidation). But the right leg is really really slow to heal. After a whole month, I think it only got 1 mm thicker in the gap. I'm going to go ahead and get the Zometa injection next week to try to speed up the process. It's going to cost me over $1,000 to get it, but if a $1,000 will save me a whole month of consolidation, then it's worth it.

My x-rays only cost around $150 each time without insurance, if anyone's curious. It costs several hundred when you do it with Dr. Paley.

Thanks for keeping this journal and glad to hear of your progress! I just had my consultation with Dr. Paley today, I'll include more in my own journal I will start soon, but I had a few questions for you.

1.) Did you/are you having to deal with isolation/loneliness? I don't think I want to involve friends/family because they would not be supportive, do you think its possible to go through LL mostly by yourself with just a caretaker at the beginning?

2.)Do you think it would be better to have this surgery when Paley's office is busiest (summer vs winter)? If one chooses the winter, you may be able to get more attention from the Drs, but at the cost of less CLLs to spend time with...

I can imagine you might be eager to put all this behind you and never look back and it sounds like you are happy with your decision to go through with this so far.
1) It helps a lot to have friends/family around to take care of you instead of a caretaker. Not all caretakers are that great. But it's possible to only have a caretaker in the beginning. You don't have trouble with isolation and loneliness if you hang out with the other patients. There will always be other patients staying at the nearby hotels.

2) The time you spend with the doctors will be at most 15-30 minutes per 2 weeks anyway. They're not going to give you more attention than you need despite how busy the offices are. So no, I don't think it makes a difference.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on December 02, 2015, 02:24:50 PM
Zometa injection???
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 02, 2015, 09:38:22 PM
Zometa injection???
It's a drug that they inject into you. It's meant for treating osteoporosis and reducing the risk of hip fractures in certain patients. But Dr. Paley said that it'd be useful for me as well. The way it works is that it prevents the body from reabsorbing the bone back into the blood stream. The way people's bones work is that bones are constantly being absorbed into the blood and then rebuilt again. This slows down consolidation, because you lose bone as you're growing bone. By stopping the body from absorbing the bone back into the blood, then you only grow bone without losing any. Therefore, the consolidation is sped up. I put off the drug not because of the $1,000+ price tag, but because I'm worried about putting more drugs into me that could potentially have serious side effects. The risk of serious side effects of Zometa are very low, though. Most likely I'll just end up with flu-like symptoms for a day or two. The only serious side effect is permanent jaw pain. But those cases usually only happen to cancer patients who take the drug long term, and also to people who have dental surgery after taking the drug.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Chocolate Milk on December 03, 2015, 07:48:09 AM
does it feel weird having longer femurs while your tibias are not longer? How do you look sitting down?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 05, 2015, 05:54:52 AM
I want to update you guys and let you know that my flexibility is still increasing to my surprise. The gains are slower now than before, but I am still getting more and more flexible. I am now able to touch the entire length of my thighs and shins together. Before I could only touch the sole of my foot to my thigh, and even then, it felt painful. Now when I bend my legs all the way, they just feel uncomfortable rather than painful. My hope is that eventually, it will feel comfortable again to bend my legs all the way. This would mean that I'd be able to squat all the way down comfortably. I have no reason to believe that I will not achieve that after a month or two.

does it feel weird having longer femurs while your tibias are not longer? How do you look sitting down?
Not weird at all. My thighs used to look short and stumpy when I looked down as I was sitting. They look normal now - like how I imagine a thigh should look like. Nobody has ever commented that I look weird sitting - not even by family members who know I got LL. As long as you're not slouching, you'll look fine sitting down.

By wearing certain clothes, you can change the illusion of your proportions a bit. For example, you can lower your pants a bit so that your legs don't appear as long. And you can wear thick soled shoes and maybe even shoe lifts so that your tibias appear longer to match your longer femurs. Having said that, I don't look weird at all. I looked weird with short legs before the surgery. But now I look normal.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 10, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
So I finally decided to look at the full length mirror while nked, and it's quite obvious that I got LL. My femurs look much much longer than before. But my tibs stayed the same. My torso is pretty long to begin with and so were my arms. So my whole body now looks like a normal person, except for my tibs. So if you were to take a picture of me and don't include my feet, I look like a tall guy 5'11" guy. My Tibs are the only part of me that look oddly short. They look like they've been cut off about 2" too short. I've noticed this before I had the surgery that my tibs looked short and stubby, but now it's even more pronounced after LL. But during surgery, I had a 0.8 tib to femur ratio, which Paley said is quite normal. Now I almost have to wear shoes lifts to make my tibs look proportional. My knees are way below where you'd think they should be when I'm nked.

I don't mind wearing 1" shoe lifts and 1" soled sneakers. I look like 5'11" when I do - which is my ideal height. Feels great to be that tall. This changed my mental state so much. I've been walking around my house lately to try to build back my leg muscles and it feels great that almost everything is now shorter. It really makes you feel tall when the sink is much lower than you remember it, and you can reach things now that you couldn't reach before.

I think my thigh muscles have been in pain because of tightness and how weak my legs are now. There's not much I can do about the tightness, because that just takes time. But I can work on my leg muscles. This is good preparation for when I can walk again. Every patient seems to have some kind of hip swaying when they first walk without aid. One patient said that he got rid of it after 2 weeks of walking. Speaking of which, I've been putting less weight on my walker/crutches to the point where it's almost none, and I'm able to walk just fine. I'm glad that I'm not crippled and can walk! That's a huge relief off my shoulders.

If you care about proportions when you're nked, don't do 8 cm on only one segment. I have to admit that it doesn't look good. It looks weird to have freakishly disproportionate legs. Good thing it's not the norm to go outside nked. I can wear shoe lifts and lower my pants/shorts a bit to fix the proportions. If I cared about my proportions when nked, I probably would have done 5-6 cm in femurs and 4-5 cm in tibs instead. That would probably make me look the most proportional and normal. It would also probably reduce the loss in athleticism and tightness in my legs. I don't care about the disproportion, though, because it gives me an excuse to wear shoe lifts. And now I look normal wearing them.

I can get my tibs lengthened to fix all this and never have to wear lifts again. But I don't think it's worth it. My height neurosis is already gone. I don't want to waste another half a year of my life on this stuff again and risk having permanent pain.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on December 10, 2015, 01:23:24 PM
"Good thing it's not the norm to go outside nked"

Haha yeah. I don't think you should worry too much about the proportion of your legs.. You wear clothes 99% of your life so it's fine. Also, you sound like your recovery is slowly coming to fruition and you are happy. That's all that matters.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Ozymandias on December 10, 2015, 02:22:44 PM
If you care about proportions when you're nked, don't do 8 cm on only one segment. I have to admit that it doesn't look good. It looks weird to have freakishly disproportionate legs. Good thing it's not the norm to go outside nked. I can wear shoe lifts and lower my pants/shorts a bit to fix the proportions. If I cared about my proportions when nked, I probably would have done 5-6 cm in femurs and 4-5 cm in tibs instead. That would probably make me look the most proportional and normal. It would also probably reduce the loss in athleticism and tightness in my legs. I don't care about the disproportion, though, because it gives me an excuse to wear shoe lifts. And now I look normal wearing them.

Like someone said before: "don't let your height neurosis turn into proportion neurosis". Even nked, I don't think people will notice your long femurs, and, even if they do, they won't give any importance. And no one will think you did LL unless you have huge scars (which I think is not the case with internals)

I don't want to ask this but as a potential LL patient I have to... does the penis look smaller after lengthening the femurs...?  ;D

It's interesting your observation that long femurs can be "balanced" using lifts. IMO that's another point for femurs in the "should I lengthen femurs or tibias?" question. The length of the lower section of the legs can be "increased" with tricks like heels or soles, but there is no way to lengthen the upper section except for LL.

Congrats on your almost finished LL journey!  :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on December 10, 2015, 08:44:49 PM
Going along the whole proportion discussion DIFM, I myself am more worried about leg to body proportion rather then just tibia to femurs considering I'm planning on doing 4+4 (which for many would seem like a hard pressed goal considering the fact that I'm going to have to experience a month of agony, but considering the better risk management and recovery I'm deadest on that goal).

You said you already had a longer torso to begin with, so how would you say you look when you tuck in your shirt as if you're wearing more formal attire? My all time biggest worry with LL isn't the possible complications that might arise, but that I come out looking weirder then most people. Also do you have any body measurements that could provide a reference as to your current proportions; Sitting height or True Inseam? 

Lastly, and I'm sure I asked you this before, but are you willing to provide pictures of your current proportions? Obviously covering your face and everything cause privacy is still 100% important.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on December 10, 2015, 08:48:14 PM
well if you want an honest answer you can send me a pic. underwear of course and i'll give a brutally honest answer.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on December 10, 2015, 08:59:48 PM
well if you want an honest answer you can send me a pic. underwear of course and i'll give a brutally honest answer.

Are you referring to me or DIFM? Either way I'd be willing to post mock ups one day but for now I feel like I rather focus on getting much fitter and working on my weight before I tackle my height (not obese just a bit fat around the sides is all lol).

Also funny enough that you posted here because I was also going to ask you about what you think in regards to proportions since you're aiming, in a relatively safe way, pretty high in terms of gain. Any insight into this subjective discussion would be appreciated.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on December 11, 2015, 08:12:37 AM
It's a drug that they inject into you. It's meant for treating osteoporosis and reducing the risk of hip fractures in certain patients. But Dr. Paley said that it'd be useful for me as well. The way it works is that it prevents the body from reabsorbing the bone back into the blood stream. The way people's bones work is that bones are constantly being absorbed into the blood and then rebuilt again. This slows down consolidation, because you lose bone as you're growing bone. By stopping the body from absorbing the bone back into the blood, then you only grow bone without losing any. Therefore, the consolidation is sped up. I put off the drug not because of the $1,000+ price tag, but because I'm worried about putting more drugs into me that could potentially have serious side effects. The risk of serious side effects of Zometa are very low, though. Most likely I'll just end up with flu-like symptoms for a day or two. The only serious side effect is permanent jaw pain. But those cases usually only happen to cancer patients who take the drug long term, and also to people who have dental surgery after taking the drug.

So how long would you have to take it for before you start seeing the benefits? Do you know how much it speeds up the process. I would totally budget for it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 11, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I ended up not taking Zometa, because the doctor refused to see me because I was 10 minutes late to the appointment for reasons that wasn't my fault. His next available appointment was in February. By that time, I'd be able to walk without crutches anyway. I could see another doctor with an earlier appointment date, but by the time I get the drug, I'd probably be able to walk anyway. I know this because I've been able to walk without aid already.

I don't have final approval by Dr. Paley for walking without aid, but he did say that I was almost fully healed on my left leg. I don't want to risk further muscle atrophy, which I think is detrimental to my well-being and health, so I'm going to risk breaking the nails to try to get some walking in my exercises. The Precice 2.1 nail is very well made, and it seems to be able to hold my weight on one leg even though it's only rated to hold 75 lbs. The thing is, I try to keep the weight as straight as possible. The rods are strongest when you put the weight lengthwise. It's weakest when you try to bend them. So I'm not going to try to put my weight on the rods at an angle. And the way to do that is to take shorter steps. The more your separate the legs, the more the weight is angled. The recommended consolidation posed by Precice's instruction manual is that the bone needs to be solid on at least 3 sides out of 4 sides of the rod, but I'm only solid on 2 out of 4 sides.

Anyway, I started walking without aid because I got really tired of sitting to shower. It's been 5 months since I was able to stand to shower, and a few days ago, I finally decided to just walk into my shower without aid because I didn't want to get my walker or crutches wet and slippery. At first I was very cautious and held onto any fixed object. But eventually I managed to just baby step my way into the shower. Now that I'm standing more, I can feel my legs feeling a bit more normal again. There's still pain in my legs but I'm hoping they'll go away as I get more and more exercise on my legs. I enjoy my standing showers now. The one thing they don't tell you about LL is that it gives you a greater appreciation of the things you normally would take for granted.

No pictures, sorry. As much as I want to, I value my privacy greatly. So here's a picture of someone else's mock up pic whose legs look similar to mine: http://i.imgur.com/Wj07rGx.jpg He's wearing underwear, so it's a bit less obvious. But if you picture the underwear in a V shape like a Speedo instead of boxer briefs, you can sort of see how the thighs look really long when you're fully nked. That's how I look like when I'm nked. My thighs seem to go on forever, but my tibs look short.

My inseam used to be 28" - no adult-sized jeans fit me well. It is now 31". I checked online, and it seems like 5'5" - 5'6" should have a 30" inseam, and 5'9" guys should have a 32.5" inseam. This is why my leg to torso ratio is just perfect now. It's just weird to see my knees lower than where I expect them to be or my tibs looking short and stubby still. With pants on, it look normal.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on December 11, 2015, 10:56:33 AM
is it ok to swin while lengthening?         so that weight will not increase?   


to prevent muscle loss too
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 11, 2015, 12:41:32 PM
You can swim while lengthening. That's what I used to do for exercise when I was still lengthening. During consolidation, I swam for the first month, but then didn't swim much lately, because it's cold outside.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 11, 2015, 03:28:28 PM
I've been exercising my legs more to the point where I'm feeling sore all around. The most pain I feel is on the head of the femur. It feels like the ends of the screws are cutting into my flesh. I don't know if that's really happening, but that's what it feels like. Anyway, the exercising is working. I am now able to up off my bed without any aids or using my arms. It's still very tough to do it, but at least I'm able to do it now. Exercising and walking around without aid is making me much happier. I see the light at the end of the tunnel! Fingers crossed that I don't bend my nails.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 11, 2015, 04:13:41 PM
I remember that feeling too, of it seeming like the ends of the screws/nails cutting into my flesh.  That wasn't really what was happening, though.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 11, 2015, 04:19:38 PM
I remember that feeling too, of it seeming like the ends of the screws/nails cutting into my flesh.  That wasn't really what was happening, though.
It's just weak muscles, right? That's what I suspect, and it goes away, right?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 11, 2015, 06:49:05 PM
I don't know what causes the sensation, but I know I wasn't actually being ripped to shreds from within. ;)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: doomsday on December 12, 2015, 01:55:53 AM


My inseam used to be 28" - no adult-sized jeans fit me well. It is now 31". I checked online, and it seems like 5'5" - 5'6" should have a 30" inseam, and 5'9" guys should have a 32.5" inseam. This is why my leg to torso ratio is just perfect now. It's just weird to see my knees lower than where I expect them to be or my tibs looking short and stubby still. With pants on, it look normal.
Hey man, can you  tell us what your sitting height?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Taller on December 12, 2015, 02:18:08 AM
If it would have hypothetically been possible to do all 8CM safely on your tibiae, do you think that would have looked better?

For someone with an average femur:tibia ratio, would you say 5-6 CM looks better on tibiae or femurs?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 12, 2015, 05:26:09 AM
If it would have hypothetically been possible to do all 8CM safely on your tibiae, do you think that would have looked better?

For someone with an average femur:tibia ratio, would you say 5-6 CM looks better on tibiae or femurs?
I don't recommend doing 8 cm on your tibia. That's unsafe and very very long process. The thigh seems to be more forgiving with the amount of soft tissue it can provide. The shins, not so much.

I'd say it looks better on femurs if you don't plan on getting nked. When I wear shorts or boxers, you can't really tell that my femurs are too long. If you did the same with tibia, they will notice that your tibs are oddly long while your femurs aren't. 5-6 cm on femurs is not bad. At 8 cm, it went a little beyond what looks normal. However, if you do plan on getting nked, then longer tibs might look better, but for safety, time, and financial reasons, I wouldn't recommend doing tibs over femurs.

Hey man, can you  tell us what your sitting height?
My guess would be that it's my height minus my inseam. So roughly 38".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Taller on December 12, 2015, 03:05:14 PM
Thanks for getting back to me. I guess what I meant to ask was:

For someone with an average femur:tibia ratio, would you say a 5-6 CM looks better on tibiae or femurs? In my case, my natural ratio looks as normal as can be, and I don't want more than 6CM. I can't decide which segment to lengthen.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 12, 2015, 05:57:07 PM
Probably should do some mockups to find out. Without seeing mockups, I can't tell you because I don't know your current proportions.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 18, 2015, 01:49:12 PM
Still been walking around without crutches and still have not broken my nails yet. My hip sway is starting to disappear as I get my strength back. The pain in my thighs are also almost gone. The only annoying pain now is this sore pain when I walk without crutches on the top of my left femur. I believe that it may be a muscular pain, because I don't have a similar pain on my right leg and my right leg is stronger than my left. It's the muscle responsible for being able to raise your legs up when you lie down sideways.

I reached my low point this week because I saw my ex again for the first time after she broke up me in the middle of my lengthening. She told me that getting the surgery was indeed part of the reason why she broke up with me. I was not exactly the most likable person when I was drugged up on opiates. She said that she preferred me when I was around her height. She's 5'5". Now she has to turn her head up to kiss me. It was a low point because a part of me wanted to be more attractive to her, and the surgery ended doing the opposite. She warned me several times that she liked me that way I was, but I thought that she would change her mind after seeing me taller and that she was only saying that stuff to make me feel better. This was not the case.

I only wrote this paragraph because I want to give hope to the guys out there who are only doing this to get girls. There are girls out there who prefer short guys. They're rare, but they do exist. And she was one of the most open minded and kind hearted person I know. I've had several long term relationships and in each time, my height was not that important. If I didn't suffer from height neurosis, I wouldn't have done this surgery. There wasn't anything I couldn't do while being short.

In other news, sex is a bit weird after lengthening 3 inches on the femurs. I tried several positions, and in each one where I was on top, things were different. My penis was always an inch or two too high because my femurs changed the angle of things. Nothing a few pillows couldn't fix, but dont expect sex to be as smooth as it used to be until you get used to your new height.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on December 22, 2015, 11:53:45 AM
Hey how are you doing lately?I hope you dont have any problems btw that mockup is mine and my height is 7 cm over my wingspan there so i think you look better than that with 4 5 cm -ape index (and if i ever get LL someday i guess i wont pass 5 cm because of wingspan issues it worries me :-\ )
And great diary!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 22, 2015, 12:34:18 PM
Hey how are you doing lately?I hope you dont have any problems btw that mockup is mine and my height is 7 cm over my wingspan there so i think you look better than that with 4 5 cm -ape index (and if i ever get LL someday i guess i wont pass 5 cm because of wingspan issues it worries me :-\ )
And great diary!
Thanks for asking. Walking around is a bit tough still. Hip sway is still evident, though it isn't as bad as when I first started. It's now possible for me to get through the day without crutches or aid. But walking is still awkward, because when I bring my leg forward, it feels like my muscles are getting too stiff and tight. I hope it's not because I lengthened too much. And I hope that my walking to return eventually. I don't mind being patient. But I just want to know if things will ever return back to normal again eventually. A lot of my life changed because this surgery, and not all is good or bad things.

I must have the Winter blues or something, because I'm feeling a bit depressed after seeing my ex. It'll probably be the last time I see her for a long time - maybe forever. Hard to imagine that when I've been with her for many years now. I feel a bit better now, though, since my last entry. I'm looking up hotels and airline tickets for me to get out of my house and travel. That's one of the things I miss about not being able to walk without aid. I miss traveling and seeing new things. Staying at home all day for months is just too boring, even though I have a lot of entertainment at home.

Maybe it's just my case, but I'm getting really tired of things not being normal. The breakup and the lack of being able to walk normally is just getting to me sometimes. I'm supposed to get an x-ray in about a week, which would let me know if I can walk yet. I have doubts that Dr. Paley will give me the okay to walk next week, since my right leg's growth has been slow. My left leg is probably finished consolidating, though. All the patients I know from Paley are able to walk already. They ended a bit earlier than I did and lengthened to 7 cm only, but they're also younger than me. A part of me wish I did this when I was much younger. That's probably the only regret I have right now. Unless there are any permanent pains or I'm unable to walk normally again, then I'd have that to regret as well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: ota457 on December 23, 2015, 12:28:35 AM
Just read through your entire diary and I want to thank you for posting one of the most thorough accounts of this procedure I've ever read. Also, congrats on your new height! :)

I'm considering doing the same surgery with Dr. Paley and one of my big concerns that few others seem to share is the scarring. Will these scars be something that your going to have to explain to every person who sees you nked for the rest of your life? Say you got married, do you think they're going to be noticeable enough where you would eventually have to explain to your wife what they are?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 23, 2015, 01:53:34 AM
Just read through your entire diary and I want to thank you for posting one of the most thorough accounts of this procedure I've ever read. Also, congrats on your new height! :)

I'm considering doing the same surgery with Dr. Paley and one of my big concerns that few others seem to share is the scarring. Will these scars be something that your going to have to explain to every person who sees you nked for the rest of your life? Say you got married, do you think they're going to be noticeable enough where you would eventually have to explain to your wife what they are?
Just say the scars are from breaking your femurs and then they inserted titanium rods to heal you. You can get laser scar removal if you don't like it that much. Scars aren't a big worry for me. I have scars in other places and they all became flesh colored eventually.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: goldenegg on December 23, 2015, 02:46:52 AM
I miss traveling and seeing new things. Staying at home all day for months is just too boring, even though I have a lot of entertainment at home.

Maybe it's just my case, but I'm getting really tired of things not being normal. The breakup and the lack of being able to walk normally is just getting to me sometimes. I'm supposed to get an x-ray in about a week, which would let me know if I can walk yet. I have doubts that Dr. Paley will give me the okay to walk next week, since my right leg's growth has been slow. My left leg is probably finished consolidating, though. All the patients I know from Paley are able to walk already.

Not being able to walk for so long and staying home all the time would take a mental toll on anyone.  I know the feeling too since a number of patients who had their surgeries after me were walking well before me because of my awful consolidation.  recovery has really challenged my patience at times and it's hard to keep positive for so long.  Stay strong man. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 26, 2015, 08:04:11 PM
Has there been any cases of a LL who had permanent pain in their legs? It's been 6 months after surgery, and I'm still feeling pain in my legs. I'm starting to think I'm one of the unlucky ones. Sigh.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: theuprising on December 26, 2015, 08:13:01 PM
Has there been any cases of a LL who had permanent pain in their legs? It's been 6 months after surgery, and I'm still feeling pain in my legs. I'm starting to think I'm one of the unlucky ones. Sigh.

Yes, numbers are hard to come by as I've only read about it in those who posted diaries. Typically it was in the knees due to either tibial nailing or from femurs being too long (ratio going outside 56:44) putting pressure on the joint. E.g taller from old forum.

OT when you had Lasik did you have the one where they cut the flap or not? Did they mention anything about regression after the surgery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 26, 2015, 09:28:06 PM
Yes, numbers are hard to come by as I've only read about it in those who posted diaries. Typically it was in the knees due to either tibial nailing or from femurs being too long (ratio going outside 56:44) putting pressure on the joint. E.g taller from old forum.

OT when you had Lasik did you have the one where they cut the flap or not? Did they mention anything about regression after the surgery.
Fortunately, it's not knee pain. But I feel a soreness in various muscles and tendons on my legs. Probably because of muscle atrophy. But I'm getting worried that it'll be permanent, because I haven't noticed much progress in pain levels even though I've been walking without crutches for 2-3 weeks now. I also developed a popping noise on my right leg as I walk. It's the same noise for when you crack your knuckles or elbows. Anyway, I also wonder if it's because I haven't gotten the okay to walk without crutches yet. Perhaps it's because I'm not fully consolidated yet.

As for your question about Lasik, it was the one where they cut the flap. I think they called it CustomVue or CustomWave or something like that. It gave me better than 20/20 vision. It was like 20/15 or 15/20, which is about a 25% improvement over 20/20. I highly recommend Lasik, where I don't really recommend LL as much due to all the problems I've seen various people having, including myself now. It sucks because I had a pretty complication-free lengthening, but this pain in my legs is really bugging me.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on December 27, 2015, 05:17:14 AM
Why would you walk without crutches without being given the ok?  That does not make sense to me.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on December 27, 2015, 05:54:16 AM
I'm a noob, but yeah, my understanding is that if your bones haven't consolidated yet, you're far from being completely recovered.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on December 27, 2015, 05:55:08 AM
if you are ok with it, can you post x-rays?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 27, 2015, 02:29:30 PM
Why would you walk without crutches without being given the ok?  That does not make sense to me.
Because I'm afraid of muscle atrophy and permanently weakening my leg muscles. I also heard that using your legs will speed up the bone consolidation because it promotes blood circulation, which is responsible for bone growth. I did not intend to walk without crutches at first. I started off just wanting to stand in the shower without crutches. But then I noticed that I was okay when I took baby steps. I also found that I was extremely weak and that caused pain in my thighs. Doing the exercises did get rid of the thigh pain from when I wake up. But the pain on the top of my femurs where the screws are, still haven't gone away.. So to get some more leg exercises, I did baby steps every once in a while first with crutches. Then slowly I placed less and less weight on my crutches. And finally I took the crutches off altogether. My left leg should be done consolidating by now. Only my right leg is slow. But it also already has bone union.

The kind of pain I feel is like a soreness from working out too much. Perhaps what I'm doing is stupid and wrong. But I do think that muscle atrophy is now my greatest concern. The precice nails have been doing great so far of not breaking or bending. I will post X-rays when Paley gives me the okay to walk. Then I'll show you the X-rays in like a chronological order to show the progress.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on December 27, 2015, 05:55:25 PM
where I don't really recommend LL as much due to all the problems I've seen various people having, including myself now. It sucks because I had a pretty complication-free lengthening, but this pain in my legs is really bugging me.

You really don't? I mean is it seriously not worth the new height ? :/
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on December 27, 2015, 09:40:15 PM
You really don't? I mean is it seriously not worth the new height ? :/

My son thinks it is well worth it.  He is now walking, but has the hip sway so many people talk about.  It should be pretty close to normal in a month or two, I believe.  He did not have any complications, so it turned out great.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 27, 2015, 11:25:07 PM
You really don't? I mean is it seriously not worth the new height ? :/
I think you misunderstood what I said. I said I highly recommend Lasik. I don't highly recommend LL but that doesn't mean that I don't recommend it. I recommend it, but I dont highly recommend it. If LL were as cheap and easy and complication-free as Lasik, I'd recommend LL to anyone who wants to be taller. But if you factor in all the sacrifices, I'd say that LL should be a last resort and should not be treated very casually.

I also recommend LL if you're young (teens to late 20s). I tend to see the people who are 30+ who have more problems with it, including myself, who is almost 30 now. The young ones seem to cope with LL much better, and I'd even go as far as saying that I somewhat highly recommend it. But once you're close to and past 30, I'd have to say that you really really must want it before I recommend it. And when I say want it, I mean that you suffer in mental anguish by the fact that you're short. You look in the mirror and hate the way you look. And the diaries are recommended reading before making a decision. Because what we go through, most likely you will go through the same pain and mental torture. Everyone may think that they'd get lucky be one of the problem-free ones. But from all the diaries I've read, it's seems like a majority of people have one problem or another.

Patientdad, does your son have pain in his legs when he has hip sway? I know that hip sway is leg weakness, so I'm wondering if it includes pain or soreness like mine does.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: patientdad on December 27, 2015, 11:29:33 PM
No, he does not mention pain.  His doctor seemed to be pleased that he did not experience pain when the lengthening was finished.  But, I think you are right - the younger you are when you get LL, the less likely you are to have complications.  He had it before his 19th birthday.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 27, 2015, 11:53:15 PM
No, he does not mention pain.  His doctor seemed to be pleased that he did not experience pain when the lengthening was finished.  But, I think you are right - the younger you are when you get LL, the less likely you are to have complications.  He had it before his 19th birthday.
But his legs are weak right? And yea, the only patient I know who didn't suffer any pain was 17. Everyone else who was 28-35 all had some pain.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: zatara on December 28, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
Thanks for your very detailed thread, it seems like you have been the perfect patient for LL.

I have been an avid reader of your experience, but it was not clear to me when you were allowed to move from the wheelchair to crutches. I guess it was 4-5 months after OP? Do you think it is safer (& feasible) to stay in Florida until a bone bridge is formed (and one is thus free from the wheelchair)?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 29, 2015, 01:41:22 AM
The great news today is that that pain I talked about for the past month on the top of my left femur is gone. I was massaging it all day yesterday and finally today, the pain disappeared. Now I'm only left with all the other soreness and pains in my legs. Those are probably from doing all this walking and trying to regrow my muscles and strength. But it's a huge relief, because I thought that that pain would have been permanent, since it lasted for months. I'm back to being optimistic about my recovery. I think it's just a matter of time now for me to get back to normal. Legs are still tight from even just standing. Is that normal to the non-LL out there? Are your thigh muscles tight when you stand or are they relaxed? I completely forgot if they were or weren't pre-op.

Thanks for your very detailed thread, it seems like you have been the perfect patient for LL.

I have been an avid reader of your experience, but it was not clear to me when you were allowed to move from the wheelchair to crutches. I guess it was 4-5 months after OP? Do you think it is safer (& feasible) to stay in Florida until a bone bridge is formed (and one is thus free from the wheelchair)?
You are on a walker since day 1. Wheelchair is completely optional if your recovery is great. You can just use the walker to get everywhere. I would even recommend that because muscle atrophy is a pain for me right now.

You can use crutches whenever as well but they recommend 1-2 months post op, because crutches a bit harder to use than a walker. Some people do stay 5-6 months and then go home walking. But hotel fees have gone up from $70 per night to $120 a night at Homewood.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on December 29, 2015, 07:51:02 AM
even without LL I get random aches here and there every now and then. but I don't really pay any attention to it. Now that I'm considering LL I keep telling myself to remember my state before LL so that I'll know if things regress after LL. :D

to answer your question, no they don't get "tight" or anything when I stand, but yeah they do hurt a bit from fatigue after long. I have no idea what tightness even means.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DragonTurtle on December 29, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Hi DoingItForMe,

I stayed at Homewood suites for my consultation last month, and the information packets Dr. Paley's staff sent me still say the price of Homewood is $70 - do you know when the price changed? (Or maybe it's due to the season, I believe in busy times they increase the price, is what it said in the packet).

Also, are you walking normally now, or is there still a perceptible impairment to your gait? If you are walking normally, how many months post-op were you able to start walking normally?

Thanks.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 29, 2015, 05:29:42 PM
By tightness, I mean that my leg muscles are constantly flexing and tightening, even though I'm simply standing. For example, if I stand right now and you poke my thighs, it'd feel rock hard. The kind of aches I have are not something you can simply ignore. My legs feel really sore like someone beat them up or it just went through a very rigorous gym routine.

Hi DoingItForMe,

I stayed at Homewood suites for my consultation last month, and the information packets Dr. Paley's staff sent me still say the price of Homewood is $70 - do you know when the price changed? (Or maybe it's due to the season, I believe in busy times they increase the price, is what it said in the packet).

Also, are you walking normally now, or is there still a perceptible impairment to your gait? If you are walking normally, how many months post-op were you able to start walking normally?

Thanks.
I heard it from a patient staying at Homewood that they were going to up his hotel fees. The change supposedly happened in December, possibly because of seasonal since Winter is the busiest time for them, and possibly because the patient stayed there for 6 months already.

No, I'm not walking normally. There's still a hip sway. I could try to force myself to walk normally, but it gets really tiring after while. Imagine it like s*cking in your gut - for some reason s-u-c-king is censored in this forum. You can do it briefly, but eventually you tire out and go back to hip swaying. Someone said that I look like a penguin.

A patient who exercised and walked a lot every day lost his hip sway after just 2 weeks after he got the OK for walking without crutches. He was around 6-7 month post-op. I'm at month 6 post-op right now and I still have hip sway even after 3 weeks of walking without crutches. I think it'll take another month or two before the hip sway is completely gone. Possibly longer than that before I can walk up and down stairs normally. I've been going up and down stairs one step at a time instead of alternating steps with each leg. My legs are just really weak right now. I know that I'm getting stronger each day though - albeit slowly. I do notice that every once in a while, I'm able to do something I couldn't do before like go up and down stairs without holding onto the handrail. So I'm optimistic about my recovery. It just takes a lot of patience at this point.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on December 30, 2015, 09:36:28 PM
Did you ever feel uncomfortable after you returned your normal life(casual clothes/going out or even maybe something like going pool) about your femurs being too long compared to your body?(8 cm is a huge amount after all)
And im sorry if you alredy answered a similar question like this.I have read your diary but i dont remember something like that.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 31, 2015, 02:06:33 PM
Did you ever feel uncomfortable after you returned your normal life(casual clothes/going out or even maybe something like going pool) about your femurs being too long compared to your body?(8 cm is a huge amount after all)
And im sorry if you alredy answered a similar question like this.I have read your diary but i dont remember something like that.
yea, it looks weird in the mirror. It makes my tibias look too short and my knees look too low compared to where I imagine they should be.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on December 31, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
yea, it looks weird in the mirror. It makes my tibias look too short and my knees look too low compared to where I imagine they should be.
Will you do anything about this?Like going another round for tibias or is it tolerable?Or maybe can you hide it with clothes?what do you think?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Uppland on December 31, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
Out of the patients you know, who lengthened the shortest amount and what was his/her recovery like?

Do you regret doing 8cm?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 31, 2015, 08:05:09 PM
Out of the patients you know, who lengthened the shortest amount and what was his/her recovery like?

Do you regret doing 8cm?
I only know about the ones who finished while I was still there. I don't know what happened to the ones who are still in the middle of doing it. But the shortest was around 7 cm due to a bad angled cut on the femur by Dr. Paley. He had the ability to go to 8 cm and had the best recovery I could tell out of everyone, but only had to stop 1 cm short because of a mistake that Dr. Paley made. He cut the bone at an almost 45 degree angle instead of a 90 degree horizontal cut. He admitted that he screwed up but refused to give a refund or any kind of compensation. Thumbs down for Paley in my book for doing that.

I will not know if I regret doing 8 cm until after I can walk normally and not have any pain in my legs. If doing 8 cm is what caused permanent pain in my leg, then yes, I regret it. If not, then I'm okay with the disproportionate legs, because height is more important to me. I was pretty proud of being able to get to the full 8 cm.

Will you do anything about this?Like going another round for tibias or is it tolerable?Or maybe can you hide it with clothes?what do you think?
Absolutely will not be doing tibias, because I'm still feeling pain in my legs from femurs even 6 months post-op. My legs are significantly weaker. I used to be able to leg press 550+ lbs. I don't know the actual limit, because the machine topped off at 550 lbs. Now I can't even walk up and down stairs because my 150 lb weight is too much. I'm not going to go through this again. I'm still below average height, but I don't care anymore. My recovery is turning out worse than the other patients and worse than I hoped for.

I can hide with jeans. I look absolutely fine with jeans or pants on. With shorts, it's also fine as long as I lower the shorts a bit to cover up how long my femurs are. By tricking people into thinking that my torso is longer, people will think my femurs are shorter than they actually are. This fixes the proportions and with clothes on, you will not be able to tell that I had LL. When I put on 1 inch lifts + 1 inch soled sneakers and pull my jeans all the way up, then it becomes noticeable that my legs are longer than they should be. Again, lowering my pants help with the proportions. Even general, nobody will notice the disproportion with clothes on. If you're nked, they will notice.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on December 31, 2015, 08:33:14 PM
Do you regret doing it with Dr. Paley ? You obviously paid a premium price and you obviously hoped for a premium recovery but you said that so far it is not happening. If you could go back in time, would you choose..Guichet, or Monegal, or somebody else for example ?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on December 31, 2015, 09:47:34 PM
Do you regret doing it with Dr. Paley ? You obviously paid a premium price and you obviously hoped for a premium recovery but you said that so far it is not happening. If you could go back in time, would you choose..Guichet, or Monegal, or somebody else for example ?
The problem is that I don't know whose fault it is for me to still have pain for this long. Other patients only have minor aches at this point. So it could very well be that my body is rejecting the 8 cm and I pushed my legs too far. But that's not a fault of my choosing, because I've done all the stretching and recommended exercises. I'm hoping that by the time Dr. Paley gives me the OK to walk without crutches, then the pain will all go away. My guess is that I'd have the okay either in January or February - or 7-8 months post-op.

The patient who had a bad angled cut obviously regrets doing it with Dr. Paley, though. He originally planned on doing tibias with Dr. Paley, but will do it with Dr. Guichet instead. I don't know anything about Dr. Monegal, but Dr. Guichet seems to have a great reputation on both forums, but of course some of his patients had problems, too. I don't think any doctor has perfect results every time. This surgery is just a gamble and anything can happen to you.

Right now I don't know if I would have chosen someone else to do the surgery. If the pain goes away eventually even if it takes a few more months, I'd be happy with the results. If it doesn't go away, then instead of going back in time to choose another doctor, I would choose to not have this surgery in the first place.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: femoral_indecency on January 03, 2016, 01:35:12 AM
Hey Doing it! Thanks for your descriptive story of your LL with Paley. I have a couple questions for you: seeing as you have regular scheduled x-rays monthly, have you disclosed your LL operation to your family physician? (From my understanding, you have to be referred to x ray specialists By Your Regular physician) and how much did everything cost you? From operation to your stay in Florida. Thanks man.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 03, 2016, 03:50:40 AM
Hey Doing it! Thanks for your descriptive story of your LL with Paley. I have a couple questions for you: seeing as you have regular scheduled x-rays monthly, have you disclosed your LL operation to your family physician? (From my understanding, you have to be referred to x ray specialists By Your Regular physician) and how much did everything cost you? From operation to your stay in Florida. Thanks man.
Dr. Paley gives me the x-ray prescriptions. My x-rays are done at a hospital and not by my family physician. He does not know I did LL yet. I don't plan on visiting him until I can walk normally again. Total costs was probably $95,000. Give or take $5.000.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: spaghetti743 on January 03, 2016, 06:14:15 AM
Do you know how to reply to youtube comments? Just wondering. Wish you the best and watched all your videos.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 04, 2016, 12:31:51 AM
Do you know how to reply to youtube comments? Just wondering. Wish you the best and watched all your videos.
I think you meant to comment on Iamready's diary. I don't post youtube videos.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on January 04, 2016, 01:44:34 AM
What do you mean Doingitforme?  We have been watching all your vids. Maybe you were sleep taping them?  Haha. Anyways hope you have a speedy return to normal life.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 04, 2016, 02:47:11 AM
What do you mean Doingitforme?  We have been watching all your vids. Maybe you were sleep taping them?  Haha. Anyways hope you have a speedy return to normal life.
You had me legitimately scared for a second, because I thought you were being serious until I read the "Haha". Good luck to you as well. I have a feeling that we would have been good friends if I was still in Homewood when you were. Too bad.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on January 04, 2016, 06:50:47 PM
Gotcha. Well hey I'm in Florida for another 4-5 months so maybe we can meet up sometime. I'm guessing that sometime is when things get a little easier for me. I have a feeling. Since I like to play it safe, I might return in a year to get more length out of my rods if safety concerns dictate it.
It's not the best scenario but seeing how difficult my tibia procedure has been it would be a miracle to get 8 out of my femurs. I also heard they are working on an internal for the arm lengthening.  Anyways. It's never too late to make a new friend. Have a good one, and I wish you continued success. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 08, 2016, 10:36:18 PM
Progress in terms of getting my strength back has been very slow. I'm going to start using my elliptical machine more now to try to gain it back. It doesn't appear that my strength will increase from just doing day-to-day activities.

If I could turn back time and given the choice between doing this surgery or not, I would still do it. Curing my height neurosis is a great feeling. It might not cure it for others, but at least for me, I don't feel short anymore. I mean, I know I'm still shorter than average, but at least I don't feel short anymore. That's the important part.

But if I could turn back time and do one less inch or 2.5 cm less, would I? Perhaps.

As much as I like adding that extra inch to get 3 inches, I probably should have stopped at 2 inches. That last inch was the hardest to get, and screwed up my athleticism the most. I know this because the last inch was where things started getting really tight, and my flexibility suffered the most. It's why my muscles are so tight right now. While I think it's possible to do 8 cm, I really do feel like I hit a limit, and shouldn't have tried to. I rather have a better recovery than that extra inch. I did not know that my recovery would be this bad. I thought that I would be walking normally by now, but nope, still walking like a penguin and can't go down stairs without holding the handrail. I can kiss competitive sports goodbye, because my muscles feel like they're stretched too much to give me much flexibility.

I currently have a 170 bpm heart rate from just walking, when I used to only get that when running. My stamina is really bad. I only lasted on the elliptical for 5 minutes on the lowest resistance before I started getting tired. I used to be able to stay on that thing for an hour or two.

Would doing just 5.5 cm mean that I'd have a 100% recovery? I don't know. But I do know that my legs would be probably be in a much better shape than now. Would it have cured my height neurosis, though... probably. 5'8" isn't that bad of a height, really. I remember that when I was at the 2 inch mark, I already felt tall enough. Stupid me wanted to get the most out of the surgery, because I've been quite the overachiever all my life. I thought I was doing myself a favor. But instead, I'm sitting here still with aches and pains in my legs and wondering if I should have stopped earlier.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on January 08, 2016, 10:45:12 PM
I'm so sorry to hear that. What did Paley advise you to do?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 09, 2016, 01:36:04 AM
Progress in terms of getting my strength back has been very slow. I'm going to start using my elliptical machine more now to try to gain it back. It doesn't appear that my strength will increase from just doing day-to-day activities.

If I could turn back time and given the choice between doing this surgery or not, I would still do it. Curing my height neurosis is a great feeling. It might not cure it for others, but at least for me, I don't feel short anymore. I mean, I know I'm still shorter than average, but at least I don't feel short anymore. That's the important part.

But if I could turn back time and do one less inch or 2.5 cm less, would I? Perhaps.

As much as I like adding that extra inch to get 3 inches, I probably should have stopped at 2 inches. That last inch was the hardest to get, and screwed up my athleticism the most. I know this because the last inch was where things started getting really tight, and my flexibility suffered the most. It's why my muscles are so tight right now. While I think it's possible to do 8 cm, I really do feel like I hit a limit, and shouldn't have tried to. I rather have a better recovery than that extra inch. I did not know that my recovery would be this bad. I thought that I would be walking normally by now, but nope, still walking like a penguin and can't go down stairs without holding the handrail. I can kiss competitive sports goodbye, because my muscles feel like they're stretched too much to give me much flexibility.

I currently have a 170 bpm heart rate from just walking, when I used to only get that when running. My stamina is really bad. I only lasted on the elliptical for 5 minutes on the lowest resistance before I started getting tired. I used to be able to stay on that thing for an hour or two.

Would doing just 5.5 cm mean that I'd have a 100% recovery? I don't know. But I do know that my legs would be probably be in a much better shape than now. Would it have cured my height neurosis, though... probably. 5'8" isn't that bad of a height, really. I remember that when I was at the 2 inch mark, I already felt tall enough. Stupid me wanted to get the most out of the surgery, because I've been quite the overachiever all my life. I thought I was doing myself a favor. But instead, I'm sitting here still with aches and pains in my legs and wondering if I should have stopped earlier.

That's two 5"6 guys now (you and Shyshy) who have said they felt satisfied with their height after 2 inches.. 5"8 is extremely common. I'd say it's nearly as common as 5"9.. It's also only a mere couple of centimetres off of 5"9 so you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference.

You gave it all you had though. It's in your blood Doingit.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSomeDay on January 10, 2016, 06:47:20 PM
Hey buddy ;)! I have been following your diary for a month ::). You are great! You are an inspiring LL patient. I’m sure you are going to get through it. Just keep doing PT and exercises. 
I know you have chronic pains right now but it’ll surely go away after months. Just keep your chin up!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSomeDay on January 10, 2016, 06:55:15 PM
170 bpm heart rate is very high. you might need beta blocker medicine like a simple propranolol (Inderal®). I advice you to ask Dr. Paley for propranolol since such high bpm is not safe at all! I think you'd better do sth about it asap.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 10, 2016, 07:45:42 PM
I'm so sorry to hear that. What did Paley advise you to do?
He thinks it's muscle weakness, but is not sure until he has more information. I'm going to get my x-rays done again this week to see how my bone growth is going and maybe shed some light on what's going on. My guess is that my tendon or muscle is trying to go back to its original length, but my longer bone is preventing it from happening. So instead, my thigh muscle or tendon is just constantly stretched throughout the day. I figured out this theory by sleeping two different ways. If I sleep with my legs straight out, the muscles in front of my thighs are tight and feel sore when I wake up. If I sleep curled up, then my thigh muscles are not tight and I don't feel sore when I wake up. After I do some walking, I also feel aches and pains in my legs up to several hours later. But if I sit still and don't do anything, then the aches and pain go away.

So I think it's a combination of both: muscles stretched too tight and muscles are weak. The muscles being weak is something I can fix by working out my legs more. But I don't know what to do about the muscle tightness. Only time will tell whether I will return back to normal life. I hope I do.

That's two 5"6 guys now (you and Shyshy) who have said they felt satisfied with their height after 2 inches.. 5"8 is extremely common. I'd say it's nearly as common as 5"9.. It's also only a mere couple of centimetres off of 5"9 so you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference.

You gave it all you had though. It's in your blood Doingit.
Yea, 5'8" is a fine height to be at. I did not feel short once I past the 5'7" mark.

170 bpm heart rate is very high. you might need beta blocker medicine like a simple propranolol (Inderal®). I advice you to ask Dr. Paley for propranolol since such high bpm is not safe at all! I think you'd better do sth about it asap.
Is it that bad for someone who's working out? Because with my weak legs, it feels like I'm working out from just walking.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 10, 2016, 08:38:46 PM
You haven't been heavily active for a long while now.. its not like walking is easy for you as it was before surgery. So if you would currently consider it a strenuous activity then it's not unreasonable to expect a higher heart rate.. Wouldn't hurt to inquire about it at the docs office.

My heart rate is at about 170 when I do heavy cardio.. I rarely do cardio though so it's naturally higher.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSomeDay on January 10, 2016, 09:07:20 PM
Yeah I think 170 bpm heart rate is not normal for just walking unless you have tachycardia. I am the same hight as your previous one ;). If I run fast, my heart rate will be 135-160 (usually 140) bpm (using apple watch). Inderal is a safe medicine.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on January 10, 2016, 11:14:31 PM
He thinks it's muscle weakness, but is not sure until he has more information. I'm going to get my x-rays done again this week to see how my bone growth is going and maybe shed some light on what's going on. My guess is that my tendon or muscle is trying to go back to its original length, but my longer bone is preventing it from happening. So instead, my thigh muscle or tendon is just constantly stretched throughout the day. I figured out this theory by sleeping two different ways. If I sleep with my legs straight out, the muscles in front of my thighs are tight and feel sore when I wake up. If I sleep curled up, then my thigh muscles are not tight and I don't feel sore when I wake up. After I do some walking, I also feel aches and pains in my legs up to several hours later. But if I sit still and don't do anything, then the aches and pain go away.

So I think it's a combination of both: muscles stretched too tight and muscles are weak. The muscles being weak is something I can fix by working out my legs more. But I don't know what to do about the muscle tightness. Only time will tell whether I will return back to normal life. I hope I do.

makes sense
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: femoral_indecency on January 12, 2016, 02:30:31 PM
I know you may feel crappy right now (bone, muscle soreness, guilt, fear of social stigma etc.) man but take solace in the fact that you had it in you to take take the necessary measures towards change. You possessed the wisdom to acknowledge there was something in you or your environment that needed to change. You knew that there was a chance that, if you followed through with this possibly risky undertaking, there would be implications, but, regardless of pressure or moral dilemma, you put full stock in your beliefs and went for it which takes a lot of courage. In short, it takes balls to do what you and many other LL'ERS have done and I commend you for that. *Rant over*   ; ) 

P.s. I just thought of Shia Laboeuf's "JUST DO IT" rant after typing this Rofl!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 12, 2016, 03:03:02 PM
I know you may feel crappy right now (bone, muscle soreness, guilt, fear of social stigma etc.) man but take solace in the fact that you had it in you to take take the necessary measures towards change. You possessed the wisdom to acknowledge there was something in you or your environment that needed to change. You knew that there was a chance that, if you followed through with this possibly risky undertaking, there would be implications, but, regardless of pressure or moral dilemma, you put full stock in your beliefs and went for it which takes a lot of courage. In short, it takes balls to do what you and many other LL'ERS have done and I commend you for that. *Rant over*   ; ) 

P.s. I just thought of Shia Laboeuf's "JUST DO IT" rant after typing this Rofl!
Haha, thanks for that. I always had the Just Do It spirit, which is why I'm a self-made multimillionaire now. It also led me to doing crazy stuff, including LL. After rereading ProgramDude's diary, I realized that my recovery will be as slow as his. He didn't start walking normally until around 9-11 months post-op. I'm currently at 6.5 months. While the other LLers who did 7-7.5 cm are walking normally after just 6 months post-op, I'm reframing my timeline to follow ProgramDude's more conservative/slow recovery time.

He also mentioned that he would get winded from just walking down the block. That's my situation right now. I can't walk more than a block without starting to get winded, and when I get winded, my bpm goes to 170.

In reply to LLSomeDay who said that 170 bpm is not normal and it might be tachycardia, that's wrong. Tachycardia is if my heartrate was really fast while at rest. When I'm walking, I'm not at rest. When I'm at rest, my heartrate is normal. The high heart rate from walking is because my legs are really weak and are working extra hard to get me to walk. It's the equivalent to having 25 lb ankle weights on your legs. That's what it feels like when I walk. Or when I walk upside down with just my arms, it's similar to that as well. So I can see why I get winded so easily. I didn't expect my muscles to get so weak so fast. But from what I read, each day that I don't use my muscles, it'd take 4 days to regain it. That sucks...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSomeDay on January 12, 2016, 04:09:04 PM
I just worried about you DoingItForMe. I didn't mean to annoy you. Btw I wish you fast recovery. Please keep us posted like before. I myself follow your diary every day.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 13, 2016, 02:21:04 AM
I just worried about you DoingItForMe. I didn't mean to annoy you. Btw I wish you fast recovery. Please keep us posted like before. I myself follow your diary every day.
I appreciate it, man. I'm not annoyed. I'm just stating what I learned after researching what you wrote. I wouldn't have researched on it if you didnt scare me like that. And I wouldn't have read up on ProgramDude's diary as well. After reading his diary, I was a lot more relieved to know that it's possible to bounce back from this state. I'm a bit glad that I decided to walk without crutches before Paley gave me the okay. He still hasn't given me the OK yet, which means that I would have not walked for a whole month if I followed that. That extra month of less walking would have made my legs even weaker and slower to recover. And if what they say is true, one whole month of not walking would take me four more months to recover.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSomeDay on January 13, 2016, 02:38:40 PM
Your Welcome
Okay, Thanks for answering  :) , Take care buddy.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 15, 2016, 11:47:03 PM
Flexibility update: I'm able to touch the ground now with my knuckles and legs straight. Prior to surgery, I was able to touch the ground with my wrists with legs straight. This means that if you subtract the 3" height gain, I am back to my pre-surgery flexibility when it comes to bending down and touching my toes.

Things I still can't do: Crouching. Squatting. Walking down stairs without holding onto a railing. Walking up stairs by alternating my legs without feeling tightness in my muscles. Walking without looking like a penguin. Walking more than two blocks (5 minutes) without getting tired. Spreading my two legs apart more then 60 degrees. This is probably my worst flexibility. The tendons in my inner thighs are very very hard to stretch. Prior to surgery, I was able to spread them more than 130 degrees apart. If I bend my knees, I can spread them 90 degrees apart. But straight out, only 60 degrees. This hinders my athletic ability the most besides the stamina. I assume that I can regain my stamina, but this flexibility seems like it's lost forever.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on January 16, 2016, 12:29:35 AM
Good recovery so far.
I don't understand why people still go for 8 cm after reading all these posts in the forums.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 16, 2016, 05:35:15 AM
Good recovery so far.
I don't understand why people still go for 8 cm after reading all these posts in the forums.
Not many people who did 8 cm return to tell us how it went long term. I came here to rectify that.

I looked at my X-rays today. Looks like my bone is consolidated on three sides on both legs. However, oddly, there's rarely and bone growth on the left side of my left leg and on the right side of my right leg. There's plenty on the other three sides, though. Very odd. My bone is forming a U shape around the rod. Hopefully it will wrap around fully eventually. But it's been 6.5 months post op, with no signs of vertical growth on those two sides. It's as though the bone just stopped growing there. I guess my only hope is for the bone to grow horizontally and wrap around.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 16, 2016, 07:41:03 AM
Not many people who did 8 cm return to tell us how it went long term. I came here to rectify that.

I looked at my X-rays today. Looks like my bone is consolidated on three sides on both legs. However, oddly, there's rarely and bone growth on the left side of my left leg and on the right side of my right leg. There's plenty on the other three sides, though. Very odd. My bone is forming a U shape around the rod. Hopefully it will wrap around fully eventually. But it's been 6.5 months post op, with no signs of vertical growth on those two sides. It's as though the bone just stopped growing there. I guess my only hope is for the bone to grow horizontally and wrap around.

I say you've endured enough. Just get the Zometa already. Hopefully you'll be able to live your life normally again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: egmedo2101 on January 16, 2016, 10:55:11 AM
hi
may I ask you about the knew range of motion?
are you able to go over than 90 ° ?
I have done my operation at October 1st 2015 and just finished lengthening of 8 cm in my femur using precise nail but can't  go over 90° .. seems like I stuck there ... I never have any pre op surgery.
thank you in advance
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 17, 2016, 12:14:30 AM
I say you've endured enough. Just get the Zometa already. Hopefully you'll be able to live your life normally again.
My main issue isn't really with bone growth as I can walk without crutches - though I haven't heard back from Paley yet regarding that. My main issue right now is muscle weakness and tight tendons and the resulting pain from those two issues. My muscle weakness is getting better now, though. I appear to be able to walk longer and longer without getting tired. Not sure if the tight tendons will ever get fixed.

hi
may I ask you about the knew range of motion?
are you able to go over than 90 ° ?
I have done my operation at October 1st 2015 and just finished lengthening of 8 cm in my femur using precise nail but can't  go over 90° .. seems like I stuck there ... I never have any pre op surgery.
thank you in advance
Do you mean bending your knees? If so, yes, I can touch my thighs with my feet now, so it's around 170 degrees bend. You just have to keep stretching everyday.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: egmedo2101 on January 17, 2016, 11:10:30 AM
yes I mean knee ... you make me scare I guess that I am very behind
is 3 month post op and 10 days post stop lengthening is too much for only 90°  for range of motion for knee
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 17, 2016, 09:21:59 PM
I was given the OK from Paley to go full weightbearing. So to recap, I've been given the okay to go fully weightbearing after six and a half months post-op. But in reality, I've been able to go full weight bearing since five and a half months post-op. That's pretty much close to what I've been expecting, and I'm pretty pleased with the consolidation so far. Pain has still been annoying me everyday. There are days when I think I should stop walking so much to let the pain subside. But if I stop exercising, I'm afraid of having muscle weakness again. So I'm trying to balance out between pain and exercise.

yes I mean knee ... you make me scare I guess that I am very behind
is 3 month post op and 10 days post stop lengthening is too much for only 90°  for range of motion for knee
Don't be scared. At 3-month post-op and after 8 cm, I was close to 90 degrees only. It was more like 100 degrees, though. But each week, I gained about 10 degrees. And in 2 months after I stopped lengthening (or 5 month post-op), I finally was able to touch my thighs with my knees. The trick to stretching is to do it in a warm heated pool. The heat loosens your muscles up a bit. You can stretch easier when it's warm. If you don't have access to a warm pool, then buy a heating pad from your local supermarket/pharmacy. Also, every now and then, I lie on my bed, lift up both my legs and let me feet dangle. The weight of the feet help me stretch. The knee bend is actually one of the easiest flexibility for me to get back.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 23, 2016, 05:26:43 AM
I'm able to walk up and down stairs with alternating legs and without holding onto any railing now. It does appear that my strength is returning. What helped the most is that I returned to doing 1-2 hour exercises daily in a heated pool. This reduced a lot of the soreness/pain I had while exercising by walking. I recommend using a heated pool for anyone lengthening AND consolidating. I'm feeling less pain now that my strength is returning. This is the first time I had a reduction in pain in a while, so I'm back to being optimistic again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on January 23, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
may i ask if how long is you arms from left to right?       

can he do upper and lower leg in a year?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 24, 2016, 01:47:10 AM
About 170 cm wingspan. He can probably do it, but it really depends on how well your body can take it
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on January 25, 2016, 03:26:20 PM
I'm able to walk up and down stairs with alternating legs and without holding onto any railing now. It does appear that my strength is returning. What helped the most is that I returned to doing 1-2 hour exercises daily in a heated pool. This reduced a lot of the soreness/pain I had while exercising by walking. I recommend using a heated pool for anyone lengthening AND consolidating. I'm feeling less pain now that my strength is returning. This is the first time I had a reduction in pain in a while, so I'm back to being optimistic again.
great! :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on January 29, 2016, 09:28:58 PM
Hey mate, I have a question for you that's been on my mind frequently for the past couple of days.

How drastic is 8 CM in terms of height increase and length for legs?

If you can try to answer it without noting the difference in your past height and current height. I know that seems odd, and maybe hard considering that answering that way is probably the more clear and distinct manner; but I'm sort of just wondering how that amount of gain feels like.

Cheers.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 29, 2016, 10:44:24 PM
Hey mate, I have a question for you that's been on my mind frequently for the past couple of days.

How drastic is 8 CM in terms of height increase and length for legs?

If you can try to answer it without noting the difference in your past height and current height. I know that seems odd, and maybe hard considering that answering that way is probably the more clear and distinct manner; but I'm sort of just wondering how that amount of gain feels like.

Cheers.
Try walking around on your tippy toes everywhere. That's about 8 cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 30, 2016, 01:50:49 AM
Try walking around on your tippy toes everywhere. That's about 8 cm.

Tippy toes is 9cm for me.. It's a good way to get an idea
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on January 30, 2016, 04:38:47 AM
tippy toes = ballet tippy toes or a more comfortable tippy toe? I guess it also matters how long your foot as :P
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 30, 2016, 06:44:59 AM
tippy toes = ballet tippy toes or a more comfortable tippy toe? I guess it also matters how long your foot as :P

Normal tippy toes... Depends on your foot size. I'm a size 9 I think.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on January 30, 2016, 05:30:02 PM
size 9 womens.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 30, 2016, 10:40:35 PM
tippy toes = ballet tippy toes or a more comfortable tippy toe? I guess it also matters how long your foot as :P

Just measure your height on your tippy toes and you'll know the approx height difference.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 30, 2016, 10:44:10 PM
or stand on a book. I stood on a book that is 5-6cm today to see the difference. It was immense. I was amazed by how much the world changes at 5cm. This would also explain why on the old forum alot of people said that they lost their neurosis once they hit the 5cm mark
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: texasbruce on January 31, 2016, 12:42:44 AM
Don't worry buddy u got a long way to go. Give it 2 years after surgery, and you should go back to running state.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: blahblah on January 31, 2016, 01:23:36 AM
I am 178cm at my lowest and when I stand on my tippy toes I can tell a difference, but sometime I think is it really that much of a difference to be worth all the time and money, is it even going to make a difference in how people see you?!?! 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 31, 2016, 01:25:05 AM
I am 178cm at my lowest and when I stand on my tippy toes I can tell a difference, but sometime I think is it really that much of a difference to be worth all the time and money, is it even going to make a difference in how people see you?!?!

Where you from that you consider to do this at 5'10? Because if you are not from a country with 180+ average I dont see any reason to do this
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: blahblah on January 31, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
I am from the US
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 31, 2016, 01:32:04 AM
I am from the US

  So in my humble opinion you shouldnt do this. Your height is perfectly fine. you are a little more than average in the US. Hit the gym (if you aren't doing it already) and you will build confidence.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: blahblah on January 31, 2016, 01:36:05 AM
Yea, I have to agree with you. BUTTTTTTT I have this little voice in my head saying it is not good enough because it is not the ultimate desired height and maybe cause all my cousins and brothers are all over 6'......... or it maybe I might just be a f*cking narcissit :(
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 31, 2016, 01:42:38 AM
Yea, I have to agree with you. BUTTTTTTT I have this little voice in my head saying it is not good enough because it is not the ultimate desired height and maybe cause all my cousins and brothers are all over 6'......... or it maybe I might just be a f*cking narcissit :(

 Some people have the "desired" height but they lack the facial aesthetics or the charisma or the talent or who knows what. No body is perfect. I will tell you this (if it helps in any way and btw if you want to talk in PM we can). I am the shortest of my siblings (I have 3 half brothers). I am 5'7 and all of them are 5'9 or maybe even 5'10. They are 19 years old. Till this day they never even kissed a girl (And their height is considered tall in Israel) while I had my fair share of the opposite sex. I almost finished med school (finish in July this year) and have a wonderful social life (they suck in school and almost have no friends). Height DOES MATTER but it not the ONLY THING that matters. You are made of alot of traits and your height is one of them. And in your case its not even a setback.. Your height is more than fine believe me. Build a good looking body and work on your confidence and you will open up doors that not even 5 inches will be able to open for you
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: blahblah on January 31, 2016, 01:46:12 AM
Thank TIBIKE200..... this is good advice..... the main thing I dislike about myself is my height... I hate it and think about it all the time.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Deads on January 31, 2016, 04:34:33 AM
or stand on a book. I stood on a book that is 5-6cm today to see the difference. It was immense. I was amazed by how much the world changes at 5cm. This would also explain why on the old forum alot of people said that they lost their neurosis once they hit the 5cm mark

I stood on a 5cm book... Didn't make much of a difference in my eyes.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: tx1111 on January 31, 2016, 06:01:02 AM
looked at my X-rays today. Looks like my bone is consolidated on three sides on both legs. However, oddly, there's rarely and bone growth on the left side of my left leg and on the right side of my right leg. There's plenty on the other three sides, though. Very odd. My bone is forming a U shape around the rod. Hopefully it will wrap around fully eventually. But it's been 6.5 months post op, with no signs of vertical growth on those two sides. It's as though the bone just stopped growing there. I guess my only hope is for the bone to grow horizontally and wrap around.



Have you asked your dr if this is normal? If its been 6.5 months shouldnt there be some hint of bone regeneration there?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on January 31, 2016, 05:59:29 PM
I stood on a 5cm book... Didn't make much of a difference in my eyes.

Yeah i'm at nearly 5 cm and while I feel taller, i'm still not satisfied. We'll see when I hit the 10cm mark how I feel.  When I had the cast on, it made me an inch and a half taller because there were special shoes that I had to walk with.  I felt good at that height, but ultimately unless my arms start looking odd I will come back to max out my rods the following year.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 31, 2016, 07:38:00 PM
Yeah i'm at nearly 5 cm and while I feel taller, i'm still not satisfied. We'll see when I hit the 10cm mark how I feel.  When I had the cast on, it made me an inch and a half taller because there were special shoes that I had to walk with.  I felt good at that height, but ultimately unless my arms start looking odd I will come back to max out my rods the following year.

I think it depends on your starting height. Also to really see a difference, ask someone to stand near you.. Than put one feet on the book and one on the floor. stand on one feet at a time and you will feel and see the difference. But again, to me those 5-6cm difference is all I need.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on January 31, 2016, 09:04:36 PM
looked at my X-rays today. Looks like my bone is consolidated on three sides on both legs. However, oddly, there's rarely and bone growth on the left side of my left leg and on the right side of my right leg. There's plenty on the other three sides, though. Very odd. My bone is forming a U shape around the rod. Hopefully it will wrap around fully eventually. But it's been 6.5 months post op, with no signs of vertical growth on those two sides. It's as though the bone just stopped growing there. I guess my only hope is for the bone to grow horizontally and wrap around.



Have you asked your dr if this is normal? If its been 6.5 months shouldnt there be some hint of bone regeneration there?
I've looked at x-rays of other people online and yes, it does look like this happens. I just have to wait even longer for the bone to fully heal before I take out the rod. Dr. Paley didn't say anything about it, and told me that I was weight-bearing, so I'm guessing that it's normal.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on February 09, 2016, 01:10:58 AM
Hey DIFM, this is the first time I posted, but have been reading your diaries, I am curious of your progress sine the last time you made an entry, I am sure others are as well.  Hope to hear from you soon
Thanks
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on February 09, 2016, 12:21:51 PM
hi.   how much cm do you recommend for lengthening?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 09, 2016, 09:40:53 PM
Hey DIFM, this is the first time I posted, but have been reading your diaries, I am curious of your progress sine the last time you made an entry, I am sure others are as well.  Hope to hear from you soon
Thanks
T
I'd had hope that my pain would be reduced as I rebuilt my strength, and some of it did. I'm at the gym almost every day now for at least an hour. I'm starting to use the exercise bike to regain stamina and strength. My stamina is starting to return to me, and I can walk maybe a mile before getting tired - when before it took only walking down the street to get tired. My heart rate drop down to 140-155 bpm when exercising. Before it was 170 bpm from just walking, which was exhausting. So I'm optimistic about my fitness, because it's starting to return to me, and it seems to be returning pretty quickly.

But aches and pain in my legs are still there. Some days I think that it's because I need to rest my legs. I get sore after working out the rest of my body, and usually the pain goes away after resting 3-4 days. So I tried that with my legs and let it rest - i.e. don't use them. After doing that, it actually made things worse, because leg muscles were tighter and less loose. And I guess they were weaker as well, so it hurt more when I used them. So no more rest days for my legs. That was a bad idea. I think that I just have to keep working out my legs until they're so strong that it no longer hurts to use them. That's my plan right now.

I still walk like a penguin, but less than before. I've also gained weight and am now 165 lbs - when before I was always 150 or under. This is the heaviest I've ever been in my life. I'm not exactly sure how this happened, because I've been exercising quite often. Most likely it's because I've been eating a lot. I'm going to cut carbs out of my diet to try to lose weight again - it worked back in October when I was only 142 lbs without even exercising. I've been eating whatever I wanted the past month, because I was afraid of depriving myself of nutrients for bone healing. But I think this weight is unhealthy.

hi.   how much cm do you recommend for lengthening?
This depends on how much your body can handle the adjustment. But in general, from the diaries I've read and the stories I've heard, 7-8 cm is really the limit, and most likely where you'll cause problems long-term. I would recommend 6 cm or less on the femurs if you want to reduce the risk significantly. But it should really depend on the individual patient. For example, I noticed during my lengthening that I had to take more pain killers than every other patient (except for one other patient who was older than me). So I think age plays a huge factor in this as well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 09, 2016, 11:17:42 PM
Hey man :) Hope recovery is getting better.
  I wanted to ask you, I read also old forums and I saw that you were supposed to be at the same time as this "Agrios" dude at the Paley's institute. Did you see him?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 10, 2016, 02:08:53 AM
I'm sure they did but if I remember correctly he was at a different hotel
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on February 10, 2016, 02:33:19 AM
The hotel is literally neighbors. Patients travel between hotels to visit each other all the time. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on February 12, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
mr DIFM,

do you think if you lenghten less maybe 5 cm, you can recover now? 

Thank you
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 12, 2016, 05:40:52 PM
Hey man :) Hope recovery is getting better.
  I wanted to ask you, I read also old forums and I saw that you were supposed to be at the same time as this "Agrios" dude at the Paley's institute. Did you see him?
If he's Asian, then yes, I saw him. But the Asian guy I met was not very talkative in person. So I don't know if it's the same person. But the timeline and height seem to match... so I don't know.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 12, 2016, 05:57:47 PM
mr DIFM,

do you think if you lenghten less maybe 5 cm, you can recover now? 

Thank you
Yes. If I stopped at 5 cm, I pretty sure that I would have much less pain than now, and would probably have recovered already. My legs didn't start feeling very tight until after 5 cm. And my legs were still pretty flexible when they were at 5 cm. I think that my leg muscles are tight because they keep trying to go back to the way things were before. So each morning when I wake up, they're tight. But as I use them, they get looser and stop aching.

BUT, it also hurts when I walk. And when I walk for too long, then it gets sore in certain places. Usually it's the top-left part of my femur hurting. It could be because that muscle in that area is weak. I still have pain in that area when I lay on my side and try to raise my legs up like this: http://fitness.makeupandbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/37.png My right leg also hurts in that area when I do the same exercise but much less painful. So I think it's because my muscle is still very weak. BUT it's weird that my left leg and right leg hurt differently when I work out both my legs at the same amount. So a part of me thinks that something is messed up on my left leg. Maybe a nerve is being pinched by the nails on the rod when I move it into a certain position. I don't know.

So right now it seems like I lose either way. If I don't use my legs, then it aches from tightness of the muscles. If I use them too much, then I get sore in my muscles from overuse. So each day I just have different aches/soreness in my legs depending on what I did earlier in the day or the day before.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on February 12, 2016, 06:07:34 PM
sorry to askso many things       i also want to be taller


do you regret doing this?     
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 12, 2016, 06:14:58 PM
sorry to askso many things       i also want to be taller


do you regret doing this?     
That's a question I ask myself everyday. If my pain lasts forever, then I would regret doing this surgery. I thought that my chances of having permanent pain were low because I was doing internal femurs and with Dr. Paley. I see people like Sweden and Crimsontide who did tibias and are having pain and problems. But it seems like it's possible that even doing internal femurs with Dr. Paley can leave you with permanent pain as well. Nobody is safe it seems.

If the pain goes away, then I will not regret it. I don't care if I can't be super good at sports anymore, because I'm getting old anyway, and don't expect to be a top athlete at this age. But if my pain lasts for the rest of my life, then I completely regret doing this surgery. The day that my leg pains finally go away is the day that I'll finally be happy with this surgery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on February 12, 2016, 08:17:38 PM
Won't the pain reduce or go after the nails are removed? Does it ever completely go with them still inside?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 12, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
It can also be the ileopsoas muscle.. Try doing exercises to stretch it.
 Like the thomas stretch
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on February 12, 2016, 08:43:00 PM
Sometimes I read things like this, and I'm glad I stopped around 7cm. It's over a year for me, and I still have minor issues:

- Quad/hip flexor tightness (though I've been steadily working on that, and it's getting better). Have been seeing steady improvement even as recent as the last few weeks, so optimistic about these.
- Pain in my left glute medius/hip (due to screw - this will resolve once the screw comes out or I have Dr. G adjust it soon). So, not really worried about this, long-term.
- Occasional right knee pain (but this isn't due to weight-bearing, and it's not a bad pain. It has to due with a contracture I have. PT will likely fix it, but it's only ocassional, not a constant pain).
- Running still not great looking, but I haven't really tried as much as I should have (and it's not great due to remaining tightness).

Aside from these (to me, relatively minor issues, I'm mostly good. I had very bad pain in my left leg that last for quite a while after I stopped lengthening. 8cm is a lot. Maybe it's good that I stopped...

DIFM, hang in there. You will recover from this, but it will just take time. Dr. Guichet has been very candid with me, and true recovery often takes years. ShyShy is really the only one I can think of who seems to have recovered fully lightning fast for a fairly high amount of lengthening (7.5cm). He is very far from the norm. He worked hard, yes, but I think he was also ultra lucky.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: tallerG4u on February 13, 2016, 03:40:59 AM
Hey DoingItForMe, I'm really considering doing the LL surgery. I've been looking at Dr. R and Dr. M, but my main concern right now is money and time away from work. If you don't mind me asking, how did you pay for the surgery? Did you save and pay in full or did you finance it? And how long did you have to stay by the doctor?

Thanks!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 14, 2016, 04:43:26 AM
Hey DoingItForMe, I'm really considering doing the LL surgery. I've been looking at Dr. R and Dr. M, but my main concern right now is money and time away from work. If you don't mind me asking, how did you pay for the surgery? Did you save and pay in full or did you finance it? And how long did you have to stay by the doctor?

Thanks!
I explained this in the first few posts of this diary, but I'll paste it here again: A few years ago, I was just a normal 9-5 office worker and living a normal life. But then I read and followed the advice from this book called Lifehacked, which got me into app coding. A few months after that, I became a self-made millionaire from the apps I made.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on February 21, 2016, 12:08:40 AM
Hey DIFM, quick question about your lodging during your stay at WPB, you mentioned you stayed at Hilton Homewood Suites, a studio for 70.00 a night. I researched and either I cant find the right rate; can you provide a phone number to that place or a particular office that will be able to help, thank you and wishing you continued recovery, I've been following your posts and they're also quite interesting
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 21, 2016, 02:56:35 AM
Dr. Paley's team negotiates the price for the hotel for you and you have to mention that you're doing surgery with Dr. Paley to get that special rate. I don't know if it's still $70/night now, because I heard from a patient that they were raising prices.

As an update on my progress, I did some experiments to see if it was my weak muscles that were causing the pain or if it's the rods in my legs. I don't know why I didn't do this before. I went to my pool and went through all the ranges of motion while weightless to see if any pain was triggered by simply putting my legs in a certain angle. It turns out that if I move my legs slow enough, then no pain is triggered. But if I exert any force, then my muscles ache. I'm starting to realize that the pain is just from weak muscles from lack of use. So now every day is just leg day for me. I am getting stronger in my legs and it's quite amazing how fast it's recovering. Just a week ago, I couldn't do leg side raises without it hurting or getting tired after only a few. But now I can do over 20 without it getting tired. Although my legs still hurts while just sitting around doing nothing, I'm a bit more optimistic about my recovery, and I'm starting to believe that I could probably be pain free finally with just a few more months of building my muscles back.

Things I still can't do:
- Squatting down without it hurting. Not actually moving, but just staying in the squatting position still hurts in my knees. Possibly because the angle is totally different now so my center of gravity is further back now because of my longer femurs. My knees don't like it.
- Getting up from a squat. I can't do it without using my arms to help.
- Running. I can power walk, but my legs don't feel flexible enough to run yet. Also there was some pain when I landed hard from doing a power walk, so I don't think my bones are strong enough yet to hold the impact of running.
- Doing side leg raises without it hurting eventually - hurts more on the left leg. This is improving, though, after adding more side leg raises to my daily exercises. This is something that the Paley PT team didn't really make me do a lot. So pay attention, folks who are with Paley, do your side leg raises.
- Walking for long distances with my legs feeling really sore afterwards. I walked maybe 3-5 miles a few days ago, and I had to take a whole rest day the day afterwards because of how sore my legs felt. This is improving as well.
- Play sports well. I can't run, so...
- Get up every morning without tightness and pain in my legs. This might be because I'm working out my legs everyday. But I've made almost no progress here lately. My legs are always tight when I don't use them for a while, and it feels sole until I loosen them up again. This is getting annoying, but it's manageable.
- Walking without looking like a penguin. I don't know which muscle is responsible for this, but I still look weird walking.

Things I can do now that I couldn't a month ago:
- Getting up from sitting down. This is easy for me to do now. Little to no pain. I'm pretty happy about this progress, because I was getting tired of having to touch my toilet seat with my hands to get out of my toilet after pooping.
- More than a dozen side leg raises at a time. Just a few weeks ago, I could barely do 10 at a time before the pain became too overwhelming.
- Walking more than a mile. The amount of distance I can walk without the pain becoming overwhelming is increasing.

This is looking good so far.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: ouroboros on February 21, 2016, 04:55:54 AM
Nice!  Thanks for sharing this info with future LLrs
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 21, 2016, 11:42:22 AM
Can you sit on your knees?If so how long?And does it look so weird?Because probably your feet will be in front because of your long femurs.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 22, 2016, 01:20:27 AM
Can you sit on your knees?If so how long?And does it look so weird?Because probably your feet will be in front because of your long femurs.
I can, but it hurts, and yes it's weird. My feet are in front of my butt. My butt doesn't touch my feet at all. I sit with my legs crossed instead. Sitting on my knees and squatting both feel painful.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yagen on February 22, 2016, 08:30:13 AM
I am very happy with your recovery  :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: KrP1 on February 22, 2016, 10:30:44 AM
He always repeats that he is very rich. A true selfmade millionaire. He says that he has made millions of dollars. So here is the question:
How rich are you? Tell us how much money do you have in your bank account.
Be friendly and share with us some of your money. We are LL brothers. Could you pay for my tibias surgery? I want to be taller :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 22, 2016, 11:36:13 AM
LOL
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on February 22, 2016, 12:30:50 PM
Be friendly and share with us some of your money. We are LL brothers. Could you pay for my tibias surgery? I want to be taller :)

How can one say no that? DoingItForMe must be made of stone to say no.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 22, 2016, 01:26:02 PM
btw doingitforme, how is your walking? Pain appart, is your gait normal?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: ecb1992 on February 22, 2016, 06:17:39 PM
DoItForOthers  ;D ;)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 22, 2016, 06:25:14 PM
(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12705586_10208396408737626_5157242507231962266_n.jpg?oh=77e9cbffdc8a3e349770ba695ac7ba45&oe=576B8759)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 23, 2016, 12:34:48 AM
The reason why I mention my wealth is because I wanted to explain that even if the tibia surgery was free, I wouldn't do it. I have the money to do tibia LL right now, but I rather burn the money than go through LL surgery again. It is just not worth it to do LL if you're going to end up in debt or if you're already average height. And I'm writing this because not only am I still in pain, but I just wasted a year of my life for this surgery, and I missed out on a lot of things because of it. If I could go back in time, I'd have told myself to not do it. I wish I had a great recovery like some of the other LL veterans. But I guess I drew the short straw. Too late now for me to undo my mistake. But it's not too late for some of you to reconsider forgetting LL and moving on with your life. I guess that's the reason why I'm still on this forum. To give you guys a real look at what recovery is like when you're not one of the lucky ones. And also to give you a real look at what your life could be like without LL even though you're short like me. It ain't actually that bad to be honest. I mean I had the life that even tall guys dreamed of. Life is a bit harder as a short guy. I will not deny that. But LL is way more painful than the occasional short jokes/discrimination/rejections thrown at you. Be stronger than me and don't succumb to your height neurosis.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: applesandoranges on February 23, 2016, 12:50:50 AM
The reason why I mention my wealth is because I wanted to explain that even if the tibia surgery was free, I wouldn't do it. I have the money to do tibia LL right now, but I rather burn the money than go through LL surgery again. It is just not worth it to do LL if you're going to end up in debt or if you're already average height. And I'm writing this because not only am I still in pain, but I just wasted a year of my life for this surgery, and I missed out on a lot of things because of it. If I could go back in time, I'd have told myself to not do it. I wish I had a great recovery like some of the other LL veterans. But I guess I drew the short straw. Too late now for me to undo my mistake. But it's not too late for some of you to reconsider forgetting LL and moving on with your life. I guess that's the reason why I'm still on this forum. To give you guys a real look at what recovery is like when you're not one of the lucky ones. And also to give you a real look at what your life could be like without LL even though you're short like me. It ain't actually that bad to be honest. I mean I had the life that even tall guys dreamed of. Life is a bit harder as a short guy. I will not deny that. But LL is way more painful than the occasional short jokes/discrimination/rejections thrown at you. Be stronger than me and don't succumb to your height neurosis.

I appreciate your comment. But what if I can go from 169cm to 173cm, just a 4cm safe gain. I can also work from my laptop throughout the whole recovery, so it's not that much of a waste of time. I think the advantages of being average height at 173cm is worth it compared to being 169cm. Also, the $30-50,000 isn't too much money compared to a car, or a college degree. I'd say it would have more positive impact than those. If you're still in pain, then I agree it's not worth it. I would never do this if I had pain in my legs forever. But, most people who have done LL at a safe length at 5cm or under, say they do not experience permanent pain, only decreased athletic ability. So for me, I think it's worth it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 23, 2016, 01:00:24 AM
I appreciate your comment. But what if I can go from 169cm to 173cm, just a 4cm safe gain. I can also work from my laptop throughout the whole recovery, so it's not that much of a waste of time. I think the advantages of being average height at 173cm is worth it compared to being 169cm. Also, the $30-50,000 isn't too much money compared to a car, or a college degree. I'd say it would have more positive impact than those. If you're still in pain, then I agree it's not worth it. I would never do this if I had pain in my legs forever. But, most people who have done LL at a safe length at 5cm or under, say they do not experience permanent pain, only decreased athletic ability. So for me, I think it's worth it.
Yea, it ain't that bad. I probably would have had a safe recovery if I stopped at 5 cm. But who knows? Only thing I would say is that you will not get much work done during lengthening. I spoke with the other LL patients and they all had trouble getting work done including myself. It's possible, but it isn't easy. Your mood would be much better if you just focused on the recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on February 23, 2016, 04:17:06 AM
DIFM

Do you think it is because you lengthen too much that cause you trouble?   I believe that everyone who stop at 5 cm can have a good recovery
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 23, 2016, 09:00:02 AM
The reason why I mention my wealth is because I wanted to explain that even if the tibia surgery was free, I wouldn't do it. I have the money to do tibia LL right now, but I rather burn the money than go through LL surgery again. It is just not worth it to do LL if you're going to end up in debt or if you're already average height. And I'm writing this because not only am I still in pain, but I just wasted a year of my life for this surgery, and I missed out on a lot of things because of it. If I could go back in time, I'd have told myself to not do it. I wish I had a great recovery like some of the other LL veterans. But I guess I drew the short straw. Too late now for me to undo my mistake. But it's not too late for some of you to reconsider forgetting LL and moving on with your life. I guess that's the reason why I'm still on this forum. To give you guys a real look at what recovery is like when you're not one of the lucky ones. And also to give you a real look at what your life could be like without LL even though you're short like me. It ain't actually that bad to be honest. I mean I had the life that even tall guys dreamed of. Life is a bit harder as a short guy. I will not deny that. But LL is way more painful than the occasional short jokes/discrimination/rejections thrown at you. Be stronger than me and don't succumb to your height neurosis.

You said in your comments on my post that they height discrimination is real  and not just in our heads... I think that you just need more patience... It takes time...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 23, 2016, 09:31:43 AM
I appreciate your comment. But what if I can go from 169cm to 173cm, just a 4cm safe gain. I can also work from my laptop throughout the whole recovery, so it's not that much of a waste of time. I think the advantages of being average height at 173cm is worth it compared to being 169cm. Also, the $30-50,000 isn't too much money compared to a car, or a college degree. I'd say it would have more positive impact than those. If you're still in pain, then I agree it's not worth it. I would never do this if I had pain in my legs forever. But, most people who have done LL at a safe length at 5cm or under, say they do not experience permanent pain, only decreased athletic ability. So for me, I think it's worth it.

I don't think that it is worth to spend 30-50 000 to go from 169 to 173. The difference will be negligible, even the statistical change will be very low, like you would go from sth like bottom 25% to bottom 35-40%, is it really worth it, to break both your legs and spend 30-50 k for that ?

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: applesandoranges on February 23, 2016, 10:08:28 AM
I don't think that it is worth to spend 30-50 000 to go from 169 to 173. The difference will be negligible, even the statistical change will be very low, like you would go from sth like bottom 25% to bottom 35-40%, is it really worth it, to break both your legs and spend 30-50 k for that ?



I think it's worth it because at my height of 169cm, every centimeter is noticeable. Once you're 5'9 (175cm) in the USA/Canada, height becomes a non-factor. Right now, I'm noticeably short, which really bothers me. After getting LL I can walk around at 177cm with taller shoes and I'll be good.

Also, I don't think LL is overpriced at this point. I think it's worth $30-50k because it's a very specialized surgery and the doctor is usually top-tier and experienced. Also, I would rather invest in myself instead of blowing money on a new car, or even a down payment on a house.

I have fractured my ankle a few times, and have broken my arm before. They for the most part return to normal. I hope my legs return to normal if I do LL, but the good news is that they do return to normal from what I've read from credible sources.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 23, 2016, 10:57:11 AM
I think it's worth it because at my height of 169cm, every centimeter is noticeable. Once you're 5'9 (175cm) in the USA/Canada, height becomes a non-factor. Right now, I'm noticeably short, which really bothers me. After getting LL I can walk around at 177cm with taller shoes and I'll be good.

Also, I don't think LL is overpriced at this point. I think it's worth $30-50k because it's a very specialized surgery and the doctor is usually top-tier and experienced. Also, I would rather invest in myself instead of blowing money on a new car, or even a down payment on a house.

I have fractured my ankle a few times, and have broken my arm before. They for the most part return to normal. I hope my legs return to normal if I do LL, but the good news is that they do return to normal from what I've read from credible sources.

You want to do tibia or femur?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: applesandoranges on February 23, 2016, 11:26:14 AM
You want to do tibia or femur?

More interested in tibias at the moment for several reasons. Was recommended by Dr. Donghoon to do 6cm tibia.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on February 23, 2016, 02:06:38 PM
The f*ck is wrong with you?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on February 23, 2016, 02:28:03 PM
Hello DIFM\
I will be doing Femurs soon, I asked about the old forum discount, they said they haven't done that in many years, I mentioned that one of the patients in summer of 2015 received the discount, which is referring to you. 
The financial guy said he would need more info to apply this discount.
Anything you can add to help point out how, and who got you this discount for you?
Thanks much
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on February 23, 2016, 04:04:26 PM
I really think DoingItForMe will recover better and things will look more optimistic for him.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: crimsontide on February 23, 2016, 07:14:11 PM
I don;t think it will be that much better for him

applesandoranges... you are not taking this surgery seriously enough

many people never fully recover
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 23, 2016, 08:53:18 PM
I don't think that it is worth to spend 30-50 000 to go from 169 to 173. The difference will be negligible, even the statistical change will be very low, like you would go from sth like bottom 25% to bottom 35-40%, is it really worth it, to break both your legs and spend 30-50 k for that ?

I legit can never take you seriously lol

Also let's stop talking about others money, even though OP was certainly joking.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 23, 2016, 11:03:21 PM
I legit can never take you seriously lol

Also let's stop talking about others money, even though OP was certainly joking.

When statistics speak, even God is silent :) You might think whatever you want but the truth is no gain is more significant than going from 175.5 to 181-3 .
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on February 23, 2016, 11:15:11 PM
Krp1 you'd be surprised to know where the real money is... Your friends Cooper and Musicmaker and Glenn are millionaires. You can borrow money from them. Cooper did femurs with Paley and then has been quoted more than 150k to fix the mess Monegal caused. Musicmaker hasn't visited other doctors (she should) but has in Barcelona since 2014. The guesthouse is 1500 per month (meals not included). Do the math. Glenn did quads!! and traveled from Canad to Europe three times at least. Ask them to pay for your tibiae.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 23, 2016, 11:15:28 PM
When statistics speak, even God is silent :) You might think whatever you want but the truth is no gain is more significant than going from 175.5 to 181-3 .

That's not the point. That's never been the point for certain people. Stop shoving your reasoning to others; especially when it's discouraging bases solely on your own crazed reasoning (the fact that you would even consider ll:this applies really to everyone).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 23, 2016, 11:16:20 PM
Krp1 you'd be surprised to know where the real money is... Your friends Cooper and Musicmaker and Glenn are millionaires. You can borrow money from them. Cooper did femurs with Paley and then has been quoted more than 150k to fix the mess Monegal caused. Musicmaker hasn't visited other doctors (she should) but has in Barcelona since 2014. The guesthouse is 1500 per month (meals not included). Do the math. Glenn did quads!! and traveled from Canad to Europe three times at least. Ask them to pay for your tibiae.

Lol....I can't stop laughing at this
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on February 23, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
 ;D LOL I'm not joking. Some people think Monegal is a cheap option for people with no means. Prices aren't that cheap. If you get complications... you'd have to file for personal bankruptcy unless you're fking rich like Cooper Music and Glenn
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 24, 2016, 01:10:27 AM
That's not the point. That's never been the point for certain people. Stop shoving your reasoning to others; especially when it's discouraging bases solely on your own crazed reasoning (the fact that you would even consider ll:this applies really to everyone).

I am not discouraging anybody. In fact, I am encouraging everybody ! I am currently communicating via PMs with a guy who is 184cm and wants to do 190 because he is an aspiring model and he was rejected from some model agencies because they say the average for them is like 187-8. I am supportive of this. In the end of the day everybody does LL to accomplish a personal goal.

You are telling me I am crazy to do LL at 175.5, and I am telling you that at 175.5 I am among the shortest 20% of people and just slightly above average height for women (172-3 should be the average) I am below average when all these girls put on heels.

In the case of the person above, he is 169 and wants to go to 173. I am encouraging him to go to 176 because if he breaks his legs, sacrifices months and 30-50k, then 4 cm is simply not worth it. And 7cm is still within what is considered safe for femural lengthening and what is recommended by doctors.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: goldenegg on February 24, 2016, 01:19:58 AM
Cooper did femurs with Paley and then has been quoted more than 150k to fix the mess Monegal caused.

do you know what kind of complications Cooper had?  how do you know and can you provide some proof or get him to give us an update on his diary?  I can't tell if you're making it up and genuinely curious to know what happened to him
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 24, 2016, 01:21:08 AM
I am not discouraging anybody. In fact, I am encouraging everybody ! I am currently communicating via PMs with a guy who is 184cm and wants to do 190 because he is an aspiring model and he was rejected from some model agencies because they say the average for them is like 187-8. I am supportive of this. In the end of the day everybody does LL to accomplish a personal goal.

You are telling me I am crazy to do LL at 175.5, and I am telling you that at 175.5 I am among the shortest 20% of people and just slightly above average height for women (172-3 should be the average) I am below average when all these girls put on heels.

In the case of the person above, he is 169 and wants to go to 173. I am encouraging him to go to 176 because if he breaks his legs, sacrifices months and 30-50k, then 4 cm is simply not worth it. And 7cm is still within what is considered safe for femural lengthening and what is recommended by doctors.

 I really dont get it... 172-173 average of girls? I have seen many german girls coming to Erasmus here in Italy and I have never seen a girl taller than me....
  Thank god I am from Israel where heels are considered ugly so some brainless women dont put them into calculation about what height the man is supposed to be.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 24, 2016, 01:29:13 AM
Hello DIFM\
I will be doing Femurs soon, I asked about the old forum discount, they said they haven't done that in many years, I mentioned that one of the patients in summer of 2015 received the discount, which is referring to you. 
The financial guy said he would need more info to apply this discount.
Anything you can add to help point out how, and who got you this discount for you?
Thanks much
T
Dr. Paley has not been very generous when it comes to money. I have examples of this with his other patients, but I cannot disclose it yet, because they're still being treated by him. I wouldn't recommend going to him, if you plan on saving money. You might paying more than what you expect. I am not surprised that you didn't get a discount.

btw doingitforme, how is your walking? Pain appart, is your gait normal?
I still walk like a penguin when I get tired. But I can force myself to have a normal gait in the beginning when I'm not. I suspect that the penguin gait is because the muscles near my butt are weak. And they're weak because it hurts when I do side leg raises so I haven't done a lot of them until recently. For the past two weeks, I've been doing a lot of side leg raises, and my right leg is recovering very well. There isn't much pain or weakness on my right leg. But my left leg still continues to hurt near the top of my femur. I suspect that something bad happened to my leg there, because the pain doesn't seem to be going away even after working out that muscle. I fear that that pain will be permanent. Which means that every time I walk, I will experience pain on that spot. And if I sleep on my left side and weight is put on that area, it will hurt. When I poke it, it hurts. When I move my left leg sideways, it hurts there. And even right now, after I've walked for a while and rested, that area is hurting as I'm typing this. So, I think it is a permanent pain. Perhaps when they remove the rod, it might be better. But I doubt it. I think something really bad happened there. My left leg might be screwed up forever.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 24, 2016, 01:40:23 AM
Dr. Paley has not been very generous when it comes to money. I have examples of this with his other patients, but I cannot disclose it yet, because they're still being treated by him. I wouldn't recommend going to him, if you plan on saving money. You might paying more than what you expect. I am not surprised that you didn't get a discount.
I still walk like a penguin when I get tired. But I can force myself to have a normal gait in the beginning when I'm not. I suspect that the penguin gait is because the muscles near my butt are weak. And they're weak because it hurts when I do side leg raises so I haven't done a lot of them until recently. For the past two weeks, I've been doing a lot of side leg raises, and my right leg is recovering very well. There isn't much pain or weakness on my right leg. But my left leg still continues to hurt near the top of my femur. I suspect that something bad happened to my leg there, because the pain doesn't seem to be going away even after working out that muscle. I fear that that pain will be permanent. Which means that every time I walk, I will experience pain on that spot. And if I sleep on my left side and weight is put on that area, it will hurt. When I poke it, it hurts. When I move my left leg sideways, it hurts there. And even right now, after I've walked for a while and rested, that area is hurting as I'm typing this. So, I think it is a permanent pain. Perhaps when they remove the rod, it might be better. But I doubt it. I think something really bad happened there. My left leg might be screwed up forever.

  Upper thigh might also be the ileopsoas. I suggest your to try the thomas stretch for the ileopsoas along the pigeon pose. It it's the rectus femoralis just try and do as many from thigh stretched (stand up, grab your feet and curl your calve until the feet touches your butt and afterwards pull the feet up as much as you can while your feet always touches your butt). The pain might be because of a constant stretch.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 24, 2016, 02:05:09 AM
aspirant185, do you think that being your height is the reason why you're not getting laid with gorgeous girls? Is that why you're doing LL?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 24, 2016, 02:10:12 AM
I just looked on the web what are exactly 3 inch heels and up.
  I have to confess. I have never, ever, ever, ever ,ever seen a girl with a 4 inch heel, rarely seen 3 inch heels and only sometimes 2-1 inch heels... Even here in Italy.
  Always when there is a girl with high heels she walks like a complete tard and everyone thinks it's a joke... I have also never met a quality girl that wear high heels (It is considered an absolute sign of empty brained not educated "insert the W word here" in Israel but also here in Italy... Nothing "elegant" about it... We are not in the 20th century anymore)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 24, 2016, 02:20:20 AM
No, it's not. The pain is on the side of my leg, and not in front of it. Thomas stretch for stretching the front of my thigh. Anyway, you got me looking up on Google what the pain is. And it's this: http://www.newhealthguide.org/Tensor-Fasciae-Latae-Pain.html

The TFL is responsible for pelvis stabilization, so that might explain why I still walk like a penguin. Seems like runners get TFL injuries. I'm looking up exercises to try to stretch and work it out. I'll report back after a few weeks of it whether I fixed it or not.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on February 24, 2016, 06:34:54 AM
Dr. Paley has not been very generous when it comes to money. I have examples of this with his other patients, but I cannot disclose it yet, because they're still being treated by him. I wouldn't recommend going to him, if you plan on saving money. You might paying more than what you expect. I am not surprised that you didn't get a discount.
I still walk like a penguin when I get tired. But I can force myself to have a normal gait in the beginning when I'm not. I suspect that the penguin gait is because the muscles near my butt are weak. And they're weak because it hurts when I do side leg raises so I haven't done a lot of them until recently. For the past two weeks, I've been doing a lot of side leg raises, and my right leg is recovering very well. There isn't much pain or weakness on my right leg. But my left leg still continues to hurt near the top of my femur. I suspect that something bad happened to my leg there, because the pain doesn't seem to be going away even after working out that muscle. I fear that that pain will be permanent. Which means that every time I walk, I will experience pain on that spot. And if I sleep on my left side and weight is put on that area, it will hurt. When I poke it, it hurts. When I move my left leg sideways, it hurts there. And even right now, after I've walked for a while and rested, that area is hurting as I'm typing this. So, I think it is a permanent pain. Perhaps when they remove the rod, it might be better. But I doubt it. I think something really bad happened there. My left leg might be screwed up forever.

A lot of inactivity will definitely weaken your glutes significantly. In addition to the trauma that LL causes in itself (broken bones, stretched muscle) I think that the extreme inactivity probably makes patients susceptible to a number of injuries/niggles too. I had extremely weak glutes and hamstrings just from too much sitting at the computer let alone LL - it took me about a year to fix them up and have what I'd consider decent mobility.

Anyway, my point is that you have a lot of weak areas now. Hopefully if you strengthen your glutes, hamstrings and quads you'll feel better. Hip thrusts are one of the greatest posterior chain/glute exercises imo. If you can try do something close to them, I think it will help your recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 24, 2016, 09:13:09 AM
aspirant185, do you think that being your height is the reason why you're not getting laid with gorgeous girls? Is that why you're doing LL?

I am getting average to above average girls. Girls are the least of my concerns right now with the ridiculous amount of workload in uni and the job apps etc..
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 24, 2016, 01:16:26 PM
Never ever? In Spain all girls wear 4 inch heels (and even more) when they go partying, even the tall ones. In my case, as I wanted to feel tall all day, I wore them even for work (3-4 inches), but I was the exception. By the way, I'm the opposite of an 'empty brained not educated W'. I'm an elegant 'millionaire' in a position of power, man!!! A 'quality girl'!!! 8)  Heels empower women.

P.S. When I visited the UK, I saw girls wearing 7 inches heels... That was extreme. I have never used those shoes (6 inches maximum, and only for special occasions).

  Maybe this is why always those girls with the heels and and clown's makeup almost never dance in parties... In Israel girls go to parties with flat shoes since you can't dance like a normal person in heels... Was never attracted to the girls that in parties just stand and barely move... This what happens when looks come before anything else it seems... And the western world is plagued by it
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 24, 2016, 04:17:19 PM
In Russian speaking Europe 10-15 cm heels are completely normal, even when girls simply go out doing groceries :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 24, 2016, 04:47:21 PM
In Russian speaking Europe 10-15 cm heels are completely normal, even when girls simply go out doing groceries :)

  Each country and it's problems I guess ;)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Nightwish on February 24, 2016, 05:25:21 PM
Never ever? In Spain all girls wear 4 inch heels (and even more) when they go partying, even the tall ones. In my case, as I wanted to feel tall all day, I wore them even for work (3-4 inches), but I was the exception. By the way, I'm the opposite of an 'empty brained not educated W'. I'm an elegant 'millionaire' in a position of power, man!!! A 'quality girl'!!! 8)  Heels empower women.

P.S. When I visited the UK, I saw girls wearing 7 inches heels... That was extreme. I have never used those shoes (6 inches maximum, and only for special occasions). I have also seen them in models, beauty pageant contestants... and whores, yes. However, 4-5 inches heels are quite normal.

Where on earth was that  ??? I think the most I've seen over here is around 5. 3-5 are fairly common in clubs, 2-3 for business wear and casual everyday wear, but then again flats are common in both as well. Some girls like heels, some don't, you can't really gauge their personality and financial bracket depending on whether someone wears heels or not, that's just daft!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on February 24, 2016, 07:35:23 PM
Girls usually prefer not to exceed 178 cm - 180 cm at the very most when taking heels into account because they are essentially sending off guys that are shorter. So if a girl is already 172-3 , its unlikely she would use heels bigger than 4-5-6 cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: hyong on February 24, 2016, 08:38:17 PM
True! In Russian speaking countries girls use very high heels too. Very attractive girls over there, by the way.


i like the Kazakh girls the most , east meets west

but they dun feel the same about me  :-[
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Chocolate Milk on February 28, 2016, 02:53:57 AM
hope you recover DIFM, please keep us updated
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 28, 2016, 06:23:17 AM
The update is that most of my leg is pain-less now after I worked out everyday for about an hour including using the therapy pool. Both my legs still get sore especially in the inner thigh after working out, but the soreness is bearable and is probably just my legs being tired.

However, I still have a lot of pain on my fasciae latae muscle on my left leg. The pain runs down the left side of my left leg, but the most painful point is near the top of my femur.

This website shows a diagram of where the pain is on my left leg:
http://thewellnessdigest.com/iliotibial-band-and-tensor-fasciae-latae-muscle-hip-and-thigh-pain/

It hurts just by poking it with my finger. It feels like it's bruised, but there's no bruising in that area. This is the only area that I'm worried that will have permanent pain. However, I suspect that the pain will go away as I strengthen the muscles around that area. When I'm able to run again, do squats, and not walk like a penguin, I think the pain in that area will go away. I've noticed that some patients haven't been able to run until about a year post-op (OldieButGoldie). And then there was someone who didn't do exercises after lengthening, and he was unable to run even 19 months post-op. I still don't know when he'll be able to run. So I'm going to keep exercising and hoping that I can put all of this behind me at the one-year point. I'm currently at the 8 month point, so I suspect that 4 more months and I should be fine. And then I just have to worry about rod removal and hope that goes smoothly as well.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 28, 2016, 09:52:56 PM
I hope you will do better after rod removal.

Would you still get this surgery if you were couple(3-4) cms taller?Like 170-171.And of course im including your wealth.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on February 29, 2016, 11:06:54 PM
Hey DIFM, Wanna thank you so much for all of your updates.  I read every post of yours, learned so much, and appreciate the time you're taking to help the rest of us
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 01, 2016, 12:25:05 AM
Hey DIFM, Wanna thank you so much for all of your updates.  I read every post of yours, learned so much, and appreciate the time you're taking to help the rest of us

You're welcome. Another update is that there actually is signs of bruising in that TFL area now. I didn't notice it at first, because my nail scars are darker than the bruise and distracted my eyes. But now that I look carefully at it, my TFL really is bruised. It's probably because I kept poking at it to see where the pain was coming from. Hopefully the bruise will heal and I'll be back to normal.

I hope you will do better after rod removal.

Would you still get this surgery if you were couple(3-4) cms taller?Like 170-171.And of course im including your wealth.

170-171 is still short. If I were in the same position that I was in before where I thought that I'd be running and back to normal after 6 months, I'd probably still get LL. But now that I have no idea when I'll run again or if this pain in my left TFL will ever go away, I'm not very sure. My guess is that at the rate that I'm recovering, I should be back to normal after one year post-op or 4 more months from today.

However, had I known that my long term girlfriend would break up with me over this surgery, I probably wouldn't have done it. Had I known that I'd be missing out on some critical events in my life because of my lack of ability to walk, I probably wouldn't have done it.

However, if this surgery leads me to meeting my future wife. Perhaps she's 5'8" and taller than my old self, then maybe LL was worth it. Because maybe if I didn't get this surgery, then she wouldn't have dated me, etc. etc.

So I don't know. There's a lot of "what ifs" and gambles here. There are pros and cons to either side. Right now, it's too early for me to say whether I screwed myself over or I created an opportunity for myself to live a better life.

Right now, none of that matters and it's not worth thinking about, because I already did the surgery. What I can say definitively is that I'm glad that I'm not short anymore. That was bugging the heck out of me. My height neurosis has been gone for quite a long time, and it's a huge burden off my shoulders. I wish every short person could get LL if LL didn't have so many potential downsides. I understand your pain. I really do.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Arche on March 01, 2016, 03:50:44 AM
Hi Doingitforme,

Nice diary, i have been following it since its beginning. I think you raised an incredibly interesting point in your last comment and something that i imagine all LL'ers will think about at some time. How will you be so sure that the next woman you find would have loved you at your pre-LL life and height? When you ask her if she would have dated you, she will of course say that she would and that height is lower on her priorities, but how will you be dealing with that life long question of whether the woman that you're with or married to would have dated you without LL?

It's something i worry about a lot for some weird reason. I have it in my brain that i will marry a woman before my LL so that when i "become hot," it is with the girl who was with me while i was "flawed." You mentioned a 5'8" woman who could perhaps guarantee you children with avg to above avg height. Will you trust her when you know how hard it is to create meaningful and deep attraction at your pre-ll height? Won't every relationship moving forward have that problem of never knowing if your current wife or girl would have loved you the same pre-ll versus post-ll? Just wondering, thanks man.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 01, 2016, 07:55:19 PM
After you get LL it shouldn't matter if the girl would have loved you at your pre-LL height. It's not like you're going to shrink back to your old height anytime soon.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on March 04, 2016, 05:08:02 PM
Here is another different question from me,i know you like my questions. :)
Since i dont know what it is like to be a rich person i will ask you this :D
So you know what it is to be like a normal guy(i can remember you mentioned before, that you were 9-5 office worker years ago.)and a very rich guy.Would you rather to be a tall(talking about 5'10-5'11) 9-5 office worker(imagine you will never be wealthy with this job) or to be a short millionaire..?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Nightwish on March 04, 2016, 05:26:19 PM
It's something i worry about a lot for some weird reason. I have it in my brain that i will marry a woman before my LL so that when i "become hot," it is with the girl who was with me while i was "flawed." You mentioned a 5'8" woman who could perhaps guarantee you children with avg to above avg height. Will you trust her when you know how hard it is to create meaningful and deep attraction at your pre-ll height? Won't every relationship moving forward have that problem of never knowing if your current wife or girl would have loved you the same pre-ll versus post-ll? Just wondering, thanks man.

On the flip side, if you fell in love with someone and you found she used to be 50lbs overweight, would you have loved her pre weight-loss?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 04, 2016, 09:41:41 PM
Here is another different question from me,i know you like my questions. :)
Since i dont know what it is like to be a rich person i will ask you this :D
So you know what it is to be like a normal guy(i can remember you mentioned before, that you were 9-5 office worker years ago.)and a very rich guy.Would you rather to be a tall(talking about 5'10-5'11) 9-5 office worker(imagine you will never be wealthy with this job) or to be a short millionaire..?
Short millionaire for sure.
1) People like successful guys even if they're short. I'd name a few famous short celebrities who are well respected, but you probably already know them. Once you become rich enough, things like age, looks and height stop mattering. Look at Hugh Heffner. The guy marries women who are more than half his age.
2) It sucks to work with alarm clocks and deadlines. What I love most about my life is that I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. There's no part of my day where I'm doing something I don't want to do. I guess if you love your 9-5 job and really want to be there all the time, then it wouldn't matter. But for me, I enjoy being able to go on vacations whenever I feel like it. If I get bored of doing my work, I can just close the laptop and then do something else. Even though I know I'll lose money by not doing the work earlier, I don't care.
3) Being able to help strangers and friends and family is a great feeling. Every once in a while, people in my life are really sad because of some money-related issue. For example, one of my friends got a traffic ticket and was really upset about it. I paid for it, and then he was really happy again. Now imagine doing this for thousands of people.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 04, 2016, 09:45:44 PM
On the flip side, if you fell in love with someone and you found she used to be 50lbs overweight, would you have loved her pre weight-loss?
When you truly love someone, physical attributes stop being important. Otherwise, when the wife becomes old, does that mean every husband stops loving their wife? The way I view love is like the way I view my love for my puppy. He's all cute and playful when I first met him. But now he's grow old and slow. But I still love him. I don't care how he looks. I just like spending time with him.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: hyong on March 04, 2016, 10:25:59 PM
When you truly love someone, physical attributes stop being important. Otherwise, when the wife becomes old, does that mean every husband stops loving their wife? The way I view love is like the way I view my love for my puppy. He's all cute and playful when I first met him. But now he's grow old and slow. But I still love him. I don't care how he looks. I just like spending time with him.

Do you feel that women and men love differently?

I came across sites like reddit,red pill , mgtow talking about a women's hypergamy instinct. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Nightwish on March 04, 2016, 11:36:34 PM
When you truly love someone, physical attributes stop being important. Otherwise, when the wife becomes old, does that mean every husband stops loving their wife? The way I view love is like the way I view my love for my puppy. He's all cute and playful when I first met him. But now he's grow old and slow. But I still love him. I don't care how he looks. I just like spending time with him.

But physical attributes play a part at the beginning. 200lbs woman comes up to you in a club, you run away. Same woman two years later after losing the weight comes up to you, you get chatting. We're all shallow bastards at heart.

Do you feel that women and men love differently?

I came across sites like reddit,red pill , mgtow talking about a women's hypergamy instinct.

Lol, Reddit red pill, and Reddit in general, from my experience, is absolutely toxic. Whilst there maybe some element of truth, have a look around you in the real world, it just doesn't hold up.

My ex for example that I met at university, she is from a wealthy family, £1million house, sister is Cambridge and Harvard educated - became an international lawyer, my ex was seeing a footballer (soccer) when she moved to university, and then little old distinctly average (and short!) me ended up dating her for 4 years before distance became a real problem. According to the hypergamy model, that just doesn't happen. Yet it did.

Again, there was someone I knew at university , must have been 168cm tops, was a hairs width taller than me, yet he's probably the biggest 'playa' (massive bellend) I've ever met. Had numerous girls on the go all the time, looks wise he was nothing special, looked a bit like an uncoked up Pete Doherty. Again, according to whatever I've read on Reddit, that doesn't happen because short = #foreveralone.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on March 06, 2016, 10:49:57 AM
Short millionaire for sure.
1) People like successful guys even if they're short. I'd name a few famous short celebrities who are well respected, but you probably already know them. Once you become rich enough, things like age, looks and height stop mattering. Look at Hugh Heffner. The guy marries women who are more than half his age.
2) It sucks to work with alarm clocks and deadlines. What I love most about my life is that I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. There's no part of my day where I'm doing something I don't want to do. I guess if you love your 9-5 job and really want to be there all the time, then it wouldn't matter. But for me, I enjoy being able to go on vacations whenever I feel like it. If I get bored of doing my work, I can just close the laptop and then do something else. Even though I know I'll lose money by not doing the work earlier, I don't care.
3) Being able to help strangers and friends and family is a great feeling. Every once in a while, people in my life are really sad because of some money-related issue. For example, one of my friends got a traffic ticket and was really upset about it. I paid for it, and then he was really happy again. Now imagine doing this for thousands of people.
Dream life :)
Alright, thanks.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 08, 2016, 04:16:22 AM
But physical attributes play a part at the beginning. 200lbs woman comes up to you in a club, you run away. Same woman two years later after losing the weight comes up to you, you get chatting. We're all shallow bastards at heart.

Again, according to whatever I've read on Reddit, that doesn't happen because short = #foreveralone.
Men are more superficial than women. Some of the prettiest girls I know from high school and college are now married to pretty ugly dudes. The thing is that girls become less superficial as they age. Right around their mid-20s, they start caring more about a guy's personality rather than on looks.

Don't believe me? Look at almost any survey on women. And you will find the height is very low on requirements. Here's one: http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/top-20-traits-she-wants Only 13% of women think that height is required for a guy to be "hot".

When I was younger, I also thought that being tall and muscular was what was important. After all, all the tall and muscular jocks were the ones who were dating the pretty girls. BUT, after around college, I noticed that really pretty girls stop dating the jock-type. For example, this home-coming queen I know stop dating this 6' tall, handsome muscular dude. And now she's dating some 5'7" chubby dude with average looks. I couldn't believe my eyes. But now I know better. Personality > Looks to women. Having money helps, too. My height never really stopped me from getting really great girlfriends. Don't give up hope if you're short. Just be a better person.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on March 08, 2016, 04:40:05 AM
yes.     women dont care about height.    i notice a lot of you do it for looks.     i am just doing it for job requirement.   even here in china,  you will see a lot of girls taller than guys.   
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: hyong on March 08, 2016, 05:04:38 AM
yes.     women dont care about height.    i notice a lot of you do it for looks.     i am just doing it for job requirement.   even here in china,  you will see a lot of girls taller than guys.

Mind if i ask, what kind of job ?

military ?  presidential guard?  :o  commando?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Chocolate Milk on March 10, 2016, 02:10:05 AM

When I was younger, I also thought that being tall and muscular was what was important. After all, all the tall and muscular jocks were the ones who were dating the pretty girls. BUT, after around college, I noticed that really pretty girls stop dating the jock-type. For example, this home-coming queen I know stop dating this 6' tall, handsome muscular dude. And now she's dating some 5'7" chubby dude with average looks. I couldn't believe my eyes. But now I know better. Personality > Looks to women. Having money helps, too. My height never really stopped me from getting really great girlfriends. Don't give up hope if you're short. Just be a better person.

do you really think so? why is the general belief on the internet that women care deeply about height?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on March 10, 2016, 03:10:54 PM
Because the majority of the repondents online is constituted of teens / young women 12 - 22/3. As soon as girls finish college and start working..they realize that they need a man who can take care of them, who can send their kids to private schools, pay for nice vacations/restaurants etc. If that is combined with perfect looks/height, even better. But the later is not priority.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLCaptain on March 10, 2016, 05:29:07 PM
As soon as girls finish college and start working..they realize that they need a man who can take care of them, who can send their kids to private schools, pay for nice vacations/restaurants etc.

What are you 15 years old?

Many women can take care of themselves and don't need you to speak in their place. When you're done sticking your dong in your butt and want to grow up, you can begin treating women like they're equal and maybe youll get laid more and wont need this surgery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on March 10, 2016, 08:02:33 PM
What are you 15 years old?

Many women can take care of themselves and don't need you to speak in their place. When you're done sticking your dong in your butt and want to grow up, you can begin treating women like they're equal and maybe youll get laid more and wont need this surgery.
Ouch
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on March 10, 2016, 08:48:02 PM
What are you 15 years old?

Many women can take care of themselves and don't need you to speak in their place. When you're done sticking your dong in your butt and want to grow up, you can begin treating women like they're equal and maybe youll get laid more and wont need this surgery.

Stupid loser, how exactly I am not treating woman equally ? Every woman wants a successful man, arguably she expects him to be more successful than her. And this has nothing to do with the fact that she needs him to support her, but with the fact that sucessful people are better people to be around, there are simply more interesting things to do with them and more interesting things to discuss. And yes, some women want successful men so that they spoil them and they don't have to work. If you deny that you have no idea about life :D
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on March 10, 2016, 08:56:16 PM
Stupid loser, how exactly I am not treating woman equally ? Every woman wants a successful man, arguably she expects him to be more successful than her. And this has nothing to do with the fact that she needs him to support her, but with the fact that sucessful people are better people to be around, there are simply more interesting things to do with them and more interesting things to discuss. And yes, some women want successful mean so that they spoil them and they don't have to work. If you deny that you have no idea about life :D

This grand generalization hurts my brain, lowered my IQ, and gave me testicular cancer.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: aspirant185 on March 10, 2016, 09:26:15 PM
This grand generalization hurts my brain, lowered my IQ, and gave me testicular cancer.

hahaa, I tried my best :D

No seriously people try in this forum like all the time to answer "What do women want" and if you read the posts here, they don't want height, muscles, success, money, basically people only agree that women want pretty faces :D Which is true of course, but not the only thing out there :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alittletooshort on March 11, 2016, 05:36:50 PM
Hey DIFM,
How many cm's did you gain with the precise2? It says you went from 167 to 175, that's impossible though. 8cm's is the maximum distraction of the device and the femur is curved, how much height did you lose due to that. I suppose it's roughly 1cm, am I right?
Thanks for the detailed and honest diary btw!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Max on March 12, 2016, 03:11:51 AM
And also DIFM in the initial post you clearly say your height is 164.5 cm I mean did I miss something ?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Genetic_solutions on March 15, 2016, 07:34:47 AM
Hi, DIFM
I'm considering Dr. Paley in the near future. Based on your experience with him, would you still recommend this doctor? I wanted to do 7-8 cm before, but now I definitely would not do that much. Do you think 5.5-6.5cm would be safer and make faster recovery? As a self made millionaire programmer, you are my inspiration. lol
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 03, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
Hey DIFM,
How many cm's did you gain with the precise2? It says you went from 167 to 175, that's impossible though. 8cm's is the maximum distraction of the device and the femur is curved, how much height did you lose due to that. I suppose it's roughly 1cm, am I right?
Thanks for the detailed and honest diary btw!
I gained 8 cm. The femur is curved, but the rod isn't. So the height gained is exactly 8 cm. You might mean that the femur bone is at an angle and not straight down. I did the calculations, and this meant that you really only lose maybe 1 mm.

And also DIFM in the initial post you clearly say your height is 164.5 cm I mean did I miss something ?
Yea, Paley's staff measured me at 164.5 cm during my consultation. I went back and checked myself, as well as checked with another doctor. I was actually 166.5 cm or so. I remember compressing my neck and the bar on the top of my head pushing me down when the Paley staff member measured me. So that might explain why they measured me at 164.5. Or perhaps they were trying to make me think that I was shorter than I actually was to get me to do the surgery. The whole consultation felt like a sales pitch, really.

Hi, DIFM
I'm considering Dr. Paley in the near future. Based on your experience with him, would you still recommend this doctor? I wanted to do 7-8 cm before, but now I definitely would not do that much. Do you think 5.5-6.5cm would be safer and make faster recovery? As a self made millionaire programmer, you are my inspiration. lol
I don't have much issues with Dr. Paley's skills. But I don't like his ethics, especially when it comes to money. I don't recommend doing the full 8 cm. I rather keep some of my flexibility and be less tight and in pain. If I could turn back time, I'd rather stop at 6 cm and forfeit that last inch for less pain and tightness. My height neurosis really stopped at around the 5 cm mark or when I hit 5'8".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EndGame on April 14, 2016, 09:34:00 PM
I don't have much issues with Dr. Paley's skills. But I don't like his ethics, especially when it comes to money. I don't recommend doing the full 8 cm. I rather keep some of my flexibility and be less tight and in pain. If I could turn back time, I'd rather stop at 6 cm and forfeit that last inch for less pain and tightness. My height neurosis really stopped at around the 5 cm mark or when I hit 5'8".

Is there anything more you would be willing to share in regards to Dr. Paley's ethics?  Any examples of things which you think one should be aware and mindful of before or during a LL with him?  Or perhaps would you even recommend against going with him for LL b/c of those ethical concerns?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Polycrates. on April 16, 2016, 02:50:31 AM
I find it absurd that Paley charges what other doctors charge for the entire surgery to fix a simple deformity that he induced through his instruction to begin with. Unless you're loaded, Paley doesn't seem t be the wisest choice.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 19, 2016, 05:58:00 PM
Great news! Most of my pain is gone. So, what changed? I finally got to use the adductor and abductor machines at my gym, because I feel confident enough that my rod won't bend. I've been increasing the strength on my adductor and abductor muscles and increased it by 50% in the past two weeks. The pain on my TFL is also going away and doing leg lifts while on my side no longer hurt and doesn't take much effort now. My inner thigh muscles no longer hurt as much when I put a pillow between them and squeeze. My penguin walking is starting to go away and my walking looks pretty normal now. Still not 100% normal walking yet, but looks like 90% normal. I think it's because the ratio between femur and tibia are different now, so my walking doesn't look natural to me. But it would be really hard to tell that I had leg surgery now. I'm also strong enough to get up from a squat without using my arms now. Also I can do a light jog. I'm too scared to do a full speed run without Paley's blessing. I still have that persistent issue with my left TFL causing random sharp pains. It really does feel like the screws on the rod are cutting into my flesh. I can feel it having this bumpy feeling whenever it starts hurting and I touch that area. It feel like the head of the screws are getting caught onto the strands of my muscle fibers. So it's rubbing my muscle fibers like a pick through guitar strings. Anyway, that pain will probably never go away until I get this screws out.

Since the pain no longer seems like it's going to be permanent, the only thing left I can't do right now seems to be getting a low angle during sex. This is because I can't spread my legs out as much I used to. This will be very very hard to fix, because the tendons near my inner thighs feel like they're stretched to their max already. My guess is that this condition is permanent unless I train like a kung fu master and practice making a leg split.

In light of the positive events, I'm updating my recommendation for LL from a "no" to a "maybe". On a scale from 1-10, it'd be a 6. I'd give it an 8 if money wasn't a factor. I'm deducting the points because of 1) loss of flexibility, meaning certain sex positions are awkward now 2) scars, though this a minor point 3) loss of time. Realistically, you're spending around 12 months of not being normal. I was expecting it to be more like 6 months, because 3 months of lengthening and 3 months of consolidation. But it took me about 10 months to feel somewhat normal now. I think it'll be the 1 year mark before I feel completely normal again.

Things aren't much different than before, except my height neurosis is gone, and I've been going on dates with gorgeous girls who probably wouldn't have dated me at my shorter height - because they're taller than my previous height. I wouldn't say that my confidence got higher, because I was already very confident before. But now I can look at a mirror without feeling ashamed of being short. I'm very glad that I got rid of that feeling finally.

Is there anything more you would be willing to share in regards to Dr. Paley's ethics?  Any examples of things which you think one should be aware and mindful of before or during a LL with him?  Or perhaps would you even recommend against going with him for LL b/c of those ethical concerns?
Paley charges a lot and even refuses to refund you a portion of the PT even if something went wrong and you had to stop early and don't need the rest of the PT. I don't know how much of it is Paley's doing or the hospital's doing. But either way, you're stuck there in that hospital. I don't recommend going to him unless you're loaded, like Polycrates said. I don't mind as much because I'm wealthy, but I could see that someone who isn't as loaded as me would be pissed if a complication comes up and he has to pay $20-$30,000 more, when he could fix the same thing for less elsewhere. I think Iamready had a complication that caused him to have to pay a few tens of thousands more, because Paley's team didn't catch something in his x-ray. I think it was bone union too early and he had to break it again. I wouldn't go to him if money was tight.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on April 19, 2016, 06:15:13 PM
Congrats!
Im happy to see you are much better now and nice to know your opinion about LL is positive again. :)
Btw,what is your exact morning/night height now?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on April 19, 2016, 06:17:50 PM
Will you remove the screw?

Do.you plan to.do.the tibia?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 19, 2016, 09:41:35 PM
I don't know what my morning and night height is and I don't care. At this height, I stopped caring about every cm. I would have been happy at just 5'8". My friends noticed that I was taller than before. Luckily they only think I'm one inch taller because I was gradually using shoe lifts to get them used to the taller height prior to surgery.

Will you remove the screw?

Do.you plan to.do.the tibia?
Yes, I plan on removing the rod and screws when my bones have finished consolidating. It actually hasn't finished yet, and the whole left side of my left femur and right side of right femur hasn't been growing bone. Everyone else's xrays look fine except for mine. But that doesn't matter to me because my rods are holding me up.

I won't do tibias. I am happy with this height and do not want to go through the whole process again. I don't recommend this surgery for anyone around my new height. It's not worth it even if money is not a factor. But getting out of the 5'5"-5'6" range was nice. I don't look oddly shaped anymore.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: tallerz on April 19, 2016, 10:07:35 PM
Hey Difm,

How long did it take you to go from operation day to walking around on crutches and how long till you were self sufficient?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EndGame on April 20, 2016, 12:11:04 AM
Congrats on the reduced pain and further rehab progress! And thank you for replying to me too  :). Good your consolidated enough to walk and light jog, but shame the sides so slow to finish consolidating. Are there things they have you doing to try to help with that? Or will it just happen in time as your bones slowly keep getting stronger? Hope you are back to 100% soon!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 20, 2016, 06:41:55 AM
Congrats on the reduced pain and further rehab progress! And thank you for replying to me too  :). Good your consolidated enough to walk and light jog, but shame the sides so slow to finish consolidating. Are there things they have you doing to try to help with that? Or will it just happen in time as your bones slowly keep getting stronger? Hope you are back to 100% soon!
Paley told me to use an exogen machine, but frankly, I don't think it's working on bone that hasn't been growing in the first place or working at all. I've been using an exogen 4000+ since the beginning of consolidation. After about 250 uses or so, the machine broke. It didn't run out of batteries. It just had an error and stopped working. A month after that, I checked the x-rays and my bone growth was more or less the same as the months when I was using the exogen. So I have my suspicions that the machine didn't help me that much. Plus, for 4 months, the exogen failed to get the sides of my femurs to start growing anyway.

Comparing my x-rays from Oct 2015 to March 2016 shows only about 1-2 cm bone grow on the top and bottom. That's about a half a year difference in time. At this rate, my femur will probably not have union for years.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yagen on April 20, 2016, 06:58:31 AM
Paley told me to use an exogen machine, but frankly, I don't think it's working on bone that hasn't been growing in the first place or working at all. I've been using an exogen 4000+ since the beginning of consolidation. After about 250 uses or so, the machine broke. It didn't run out of batteries. It just had an error and stopped working. A month after that, I checked the x-rays and my bone growth was more or less the same as the months when I was using the exogen. So I have my suspicions that the machine didn't help me that much. Plus, for 4 months, the exogen failed to get the sides of my femurs to start growing anyway.

Comparing my x-rays from Oct 2015 to March 2016 shows only about 1-2 cm bone grow on the top and bottom. That's about a half a year difference in time. At this rate, my femur will probably not have union for years.

Exogen is a scam, It is configurated just for a limit time of use. You can do just 200-250 uses.

I am using other machine, cheaper and with the same frequency, 1 Mhz besides you can choosee between pulsed/continuos

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Denshine-Ultrasound-Massager-Therapy-Ultrasonic/dp/B00W96A35A?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 20, 2016, 03:43:51 PM
Exogen is a scam, It is configurated just for a limit time of use. You can do just 200-250 uses.

I am using other machine, cheaper and with the same frequency, 1 Mhz besides you can choosee between pulsed/continuos

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Denshine-Ultrasound-Massager-Therapy-Ultrasonic/dp/B00W96A35A?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
Yea, exogen is charging $3000-4000 to insurance companies for what is essentially a $20 device to manufacture. They're a PoS company that's defrauding insurance companies. I see that the company claims that it works amazingly for patients, but the month where I didn't use the exogen also saw the most bone growth where there weren't any. Also the sides of my bones that had no bone growth was where I placed the exogen machine the closest. So I think the exogen machine actually made my bone growth worse.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 20, 2016, 04:04:25 PM
Congrats on doing better DIFM.

I will say (though I lengthened just over 7cm whereas you did 8cm), the pain takes a while to go away. The only pain I really have now is occasional (and very manageable) right knee pain (due to muscle tightness, which I've been actively working on and seeing results) and left screw pain (and even that's somewhat improving, though like you said, won't stop until screws are out). I had a pretty scary pain in my left leg that didn't really go away until like 6 months after I stopped lengthening.

Consolidation takes a lot of time. I think you'll be ok in the end because Precice is a bit easier on healing, whereas ratcheting rods can be rough.

My slow-ish consolidation (particularly on my left leg) concerns me a bit for tibs. Thankfully I'm doing between 3 and 4cm max for recovery time and proportions sake. I refuse to be anything less than fully satisfied, or at the very least, content with my height. I'm actually not that different from your height..my evening height is sometimes as high as 5'8.25" depending on the day (though I don't measure nearly as much anymore because at this point, it doesn't matter)...but now with boat shoe season coming up (and I love them in the summer, because they're so comfortable and stylish lol)...I have to still worry about what shoes I wear. Another inch gives me a lot more freedom. In our range, an inch makes a big difference.

Also, surprised to hear missionary is hard on you. I did missionary with this one girl recently, and it was totally fine. The only position I somewhat struggle with (though not nearly as much now) is (not sure if there's a name for it) is where your butt is touching your feet (your knees/quads are fully bent to be adjacent to your tibs) and the girl is on her back, and you're giving it to her that way. I can do it, but takes a bit of effort (and prior stretching ;) ).

But as long as I can do doggy, speed bumper, and sex off the side of the bed (with her feet on my shoulders), I'm a happy camper.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 21, 2016, 07:53:37 AM
In the latest X-ray I took, I can see why my left screw is causing me pain in my left TFL. The bone near the screw retreated and exposed the head of the screw. So the screw head is now completely outside of the bone and is forming a hook shape that can get caught on any muscle fibers.

I think we were talking about the same position. This is what I have trouble doing now: (http://thumbs.imagekind.com/4690441_650/Missionary-Position_art.jpg?v=1390546800) And it sounds like it's the same position you're describing. Anything that requires me to bend my knees and spread my legs is causing me pain, so it's very distracting.

This is the alternative position I do now so that I don't have to bend my knees as much: (http://mormonmissionarypositions.com/images/MissionaryPositions_M_17.jpg)

This pronebone position is also very hard for me to do, too now because of the same knee bending, leg spreading, or bending my legs back requirements to get a low enough angle: (http://cf.girlsaskguys.com/a26687/c983b4e2-ad6f-4ea8-a121-bd6aa50e7bd8.jpg)

Anyway, I'm going to keep stretching to see if I can get my legs to flex back to what it was originally. If a kung fu master or ballerina can do it, I can do it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on April 21, 2016, 10:08:05 AM
this is getting interesting :D
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on April 21, 2016, 11:19:50 AM
DIFM,  thank you very much

is it possible to wear lift after?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 21, 2016, 01:58:49 PM
Hmmm...none of those positions are that hard for me. The one that I think you and I were both talking about requires a tad more effort than others, but I can do it. My flexibility has been improving because I've been making it a point (however annoying) to stretch every day.

I can almost touch the floor with the palms of my hands, but not quite. Hope to be able to do that again shortly. I probably would have recovered faster as well had I not slacked off with stretching. A big part of recovery from this is walking and stretching as much as possible. Having to work (read: sit too much) literally right as lengthening ended made it hard for me to focus on recovery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on April 21, 2016, 03:13:30 PM
did you also think your gene in height and worry your children height will be short?  thank you
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 22, 2016, 01:45:00 PM
DIFM,  thank you very much

is it possible to wear lift after?
Yes. And sometimes I wear one to balance out the ratio between my femur and tibia. I only do this if every inch counts and I'll never see these people ever again, such as a public event or business function. Most of the time, I don't wear one, because I feel that I'm tall enough already.

Hmmm...none of those positions are that hard for me. The one that I think you and I were both talking about requires a tad more effort than others, but I can do it. My flexibility has been improving because I've been making it a point (however annoying) to stretch every day.

I can almost touch the floor with the palms of my hands, but not quite. Hope to be able to do that again shortly. I probably would have recovered faster as well had I not slacked off with stretching. A big part of recovery from this is walking and stretching as much as possible. Having to work (read: sit too much) literally right as lengthening ended made it hard for me to focus on recovery.
Sitting on my feet is still painful to me and spreading my legs out further than 90 degrees is impossible. So that's probably why I have a lot of trouble with these positions. Prior to LL, I could spread my legs about 135 degrees or so. I'm able to touch the floor with the palms of my hands. Although prior to LL, I was able to touch the floors with my wrists. I try to sit with my legs folded now to give my legs a stretch even while sitting. I'm able to put my legs behind my head. So it seems like the areas where I've been stretching often has returned almost back to where it was prior to LL, but the ones that I haven't been working on much haven't. I'm changing that now and stretching more where I lost flexibility.
did you also think your gene in height and worry your children height will be short?  thank you
No, I don't care if my children are short. If anything, this would help my children be taller, because I could date taller women and add some "tall" genes to my children's gene pool. Anything above 5'5" is above average height for a girl, so if I date anyone above 5'5", I'm already helping my kids.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Revenge on April 22, 2016, 02:48:34 PM
what happened here :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 04:52:31 PM
You know, DIFM...I quit the forum and decided against LL partly because of your diary and recommendation against it. You seem intelligent and level headed, so I value your opinion. Trying my best to put this height nonsense behind me and just live my life...

Then curiosity got the best of me and I lurked the forum to see if iamready had an update. He did, and I hope he heals ok, but I ended up reading your update too...

I'm glad you are doing better, but now you say LL is an '8' on the "worth it?" scale?!?! (money is no problem for me)

That's pretty darn high.

But you also say that you would of been happy at 5'8, which I assume means if you were 5'8 to begin with, you would not of done this? (hard to know that for sure, I know)

I am 5'7.5...just 1/2 inch under the height where your neurosis was gone. (I put a 1/2 lift in my shoes to get to 5'9 with a 1" heel)

Man, I'm so confused. Half the time my rational mind is like, "5'7.5 is fine, never had any trouble...you are 5'9 in your boots" and then the irrational mind is like, "YOU COULD BE 5'9 OR MORE!!!!!"

Wouldn't be my first cosmetic surgery either. (not that the others are remotely comparable to LL)

I could be a 5'9, decently attractive, muscular, and very outgoing millionaire. Tempting AF!

Or is it all just a dream?

Man, why ya gotta change your recommendation? lol

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 04:56:37 PM
No, I don't care if my children are short. If anything, this would help my children be taller, because I could date taller women and add some "tall" genes to my children's gene pool. Anything above 5'5" is above average height for a girl, so if I date anyone above 5'5", I'm already helping my kids.

I'm 5'7.5, my wife is 5'9

Our first kid: 75th percentile for height.
Our second kid: 30th percentile for height.

There are no guarantees.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 05:36:02 PM
My personal feeling is that between 5'7 and 5'10 (a very frustrating range), every inch is almost its own "sub-league."

We already know below 5'7", and you're SOL (sh*t outta luck) in many ways. At 5'10" and over, you're safe, and if you want LL at 5'10" or over, you're just doing it for vanity/I wanna be 6ft reasons (but if that's your choice, then mazeltov).

5'7" is often the bare minimum for many women, 5'8" is meh, 5'9" is ultra close to being free from most height related issues (discrimination from women and other men), and at 5'10", you're fine 95% of the time (unless all your friends are super tall or the woman in question is just a straight up heightist b*tch, and you don't want those anyway).

For me, a strong 5'9" is where I want to be (based on evening height), because it's almost the same thing as 5'10", and you're 5'10" in basic shoes (and over in certain sneakers) at that height anyway. I'd rather be a proportionate and healthy 5'9" than a disproportionate/take forever to recover 5'10".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 06:03:34 PM
Yellowspike,

Is there realistically any recovery difference between the 8cm or so that you and DIFM did, and the 3-5cm i'd have to do to hit 5'9?

Edit: I'm seriously considering DR. Guichet. I'd still wear my boots with the 1/2 inch lift, would put me at 5'10.5 in them. Being from the Midwest I often wear cowboy boots that give me a bit over 2" heel too, that's 5'11

DIFM sorry to clutter your diary
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 06:12:03 PM
Yellowspike,

Is there realistically any recovery difference between the 8cm or so that you and DIFM did, and the 3-5cm i'd have to do to hit 5'9?

Edit: I'm seriously considering DR. Guichet. I'd still wear my boots with the 1/2 inch lift, would put me at 5'10.5 in them. Being from the Midwest I often wear cowboy boots that give me a bit over 2" heel too, that's 5'11

DIFM sorry to clutter your diary

If you're doing just 3.5cm on femurs (especially with DR. G), you'll have a very, very fast and easy recovery. You'd have the first 2.5cm in just two weeks, and then I think maybe another week and a half for the remainder.

I'm just dreading having to do 3cm on tibias...hopefully it won't be bad for such a small amount of lengthening. Just sucks I gotta do that to my tibs to get where I need to be.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 06:16:01 PM
My doc says I am 5'7.5, I think I am closer to 5'7 than I am 5'8 though...so probably closer to 5cm's of LL

Dr G would be first choice I think
Dr Catagni would be second
Dr Paley would be third
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
My doc says I am 5'7.5, I think I am closer to 5'7 than I am 5'8 though...so probably closer to 5cm's of LL

Doctors often measure with a bit of error. What I do personally is mark certain heights on my wall using measuring tape (making sure it's flush against the wall), and then using an aerosol can, see where the bottom of the can hits my head relative to these marks. I don't measure as much as I used to, but I'm confident I'm doing it right (and also that Dr. G and another Dr. in Italy got my starting early evening height of 166 right).

Also, Catagni is on my short list for doing tibs late next year. Maybe we can get a group, because another friend of mine wants Dr. G, and he is also in Italy (and they're near each other I believe).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 06:26:09 PM
That's the timeframe I had in mind, so it is possible.

Not sure I care to measure myself that accurately, hate to find out I am shorter than I thought...lol.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 07:12:16 PM
That's the timeframe I had in mind, so it is possible.

Not sure I care to measure myself that accurately, hate to find out I am shorter than I thought...lol.

Would be cool to meet a self-made millionaire. Maybe you could hook me up with your wife's hot friends 8)

Yeah I'm planning on late 2017 or early/mid 2018. Want to get some more bonuses under my belt and plan for the worst (although I might be able to get short-term disability at my job) case scenario of losing this job.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 22, 2016, 08:16:10 PM
Would be cool to meet a self-made millionaire. Maybe you could hook me up with your wife's hot friends 8)

Yeah I'm planning on late 2017 or early/mid 2018. Want to get some more bonuses under my belt and plan for the worst (although I might be able to get short-term disability at my job) case scenario of losing this job.

Only one of my wife's friends is hot, and I call dibs on her.

Wait, what?  ;)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 08:21:47 PM

Wait, what?  ;)

lol that's totally something I would say. I stay stupid sh*t and then follow it up with "wait, what?" all the time. lol
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on April 22, 2016, 08:59:13 PM
(inb4 let's let DoingItForHim have his diary back)  ;D
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 23, 2016, 03:44:45 AM
You know, DIFM...I quit the forum and decided against LL partly because of your diary and recommendation against it. You seem intelligent and level headed, so I value your opinion. Trying my best to put this height nonsense behind me and just live my life...

Then curiosity got the best of me and I lurked the forum to see if iamready had an update. He did, and I hope he heals ok, but I ended up reading your update too...

I'm glad you are doing better, but now you say LL is an '8' on the "worth it?" scale?!?! (money is no problem for me)

That's pretty darn high.

But you also say that you would of been happy at 5'8, which I assume means if you were 5'8 to begin with, you would not of done this? (hard to know that for sure, I know)

I am 5'7.5...just 1/2 inch under the height where your neurosis was gone. (I put a 1/2 lift in my shoes to get to 5'9 with a 1" heel)

Man, I'm so confused. Half the time my rational mind is like, "5'7.5 is fine, never had any trouble...you are 5'9 in your boots" and then the irrational mind is like, "YOU COULD BE 5'9 OR MORE!!!!!"

Wouldn't be my first cosmetic surgery either. (not that the others are remotely comparable to LL)

I could be a 5'9, decently attractive, muscular, and very outgoing millionaire. Tempting AF!

Or is it all just a dream?

Man, why ya gotta change your recommendation? lol
Haha, my bad. I forgot to mention that an 8 is a failing grade for an Asian-American. Joking aside, I'd say it's an 8 for someone who's around 5'5" with more money than he knows what to do with. I say this because, if you suffer from height neurosis, there really isn't much of a cure quite like actually getting LL. I'm 100% sure that I'm cured of it, because I don't want more height anymore after what I went through. I don't recommend it for you. I was in your position midway through my lengthening. I'd have been okay to stop there and get my life back to normal. You say that you can wear tall footwear and get away with it? Then why not just do that? If I could just wear shoes and get to 5'10", I wouldn't have done this surgery. I say this because this is exactly what I'm doing. I'm putting in 1" lifts, which is barely noticeable, but it gets me to 5'10" and I'm happy. I have the option to do tibias to make that permanent, and I'm not even considering doing it. It's just not worth it around this height. I don't feel short anymore. I may look short compared to 6' tall guys. But I don't FEEL short. I could care less if some bimbo girl only dates 6' tall guys or if people still think I'm short. I don't care. I just don't feel short anymore, and that trumps everything. Even at 5'8", I didn't feel short anymore. You're not that far from that. All I could say is that, don't be that millionaire who feels poor because he's poorer than a billionaire. In the same way, don't feel short just because taller people exist. Ignore all that jazz and really think about what I'm saying. If I can feel not short at 5'8", then so can you. Just have to reframe your mindset to not feeling short and ignore the rest of the noise.

Right now I'm working on cutting all the fat that I've accumulated from being bedridden for months. I think by having a slimmer figure, I'll look even more proportionately taller. I don't know what your body shape is like, but that might be something to consider as well instead of doing this surgery. It's way way healthier, too, to not doing this surgery and instead work on getting that waist line smaller.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on April 23, 2016, 07:42:30 AM
DIFM, thank you for answering

do you mean you are an asian blood?

do you recommend this it to someone who is 167 cm like me?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 23, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
Haha, my bad. I forgot to mention that an 8 is a failing grade for an Asian-American. Joking aside, I'd say it's an 8 for someone who's around 5'5" with more money than he knows what to do with. I say this because, if you suffer from height neurosis, there really isn't much of a cure quite like actually getting LL. I'm 100% sure that I'm cured of it, because I don't want more height anymore after what I went through. I don't recommend it for you. I was in your position midway through my lengthening. I'd have been okay to stop there and get my life back to normal. You say that you can wear tall footwear and get away with it? Then why not just do that? If I could just wear shoes and get to 5'10", I wouldn't have done this surgery. I say this because this is exactly what I'm doing. I'm putting in 1" lifts, which is barely noticeable, but it gets me to 5'10" and I'm happy. I have the option to do tibias to make that permanent, and I'm not even considering doing it. It's just not worth it around this height. I don't feel short anymore. I may look short compared to 6' tall guys. But I don't FEEL short. I could care less if some bimbo girl only dates 6' tall guys or if people still think I'm short. I don't care. I just don't feel short anymore, and that trumps everything. Even at 5'8", I didn't feel short anymore. You're not that far from that. All I could say is that, don't be that millionaire who feels poor because he's poorer than a billionaire. In the same way, don't feel short just because taller people exist. Ignore all that jazz and really think about what I'm saying. If I can feel not short at 5'8", then so can you. Just have to reframe your mindset to not feeling short and ignore the rest of the noise.

Right now I'm working on cutting all the fat that I've accumulated from being bedridden for months. I think by having a slimmer figure, I'll look even more proportionately taller. I don't know what your body shape is like, but that might be something to consider as well instead of doing this surgery. It's way way healthier, too, to not doing this surgery and instead work on getting that waist line smaller.

Thanks DIFM, wise words.

You stand 5'10 in your shoes? I stand 5'9 in my boots after an additional 1/2" lift, so not that much shorter.

I feel short, I won't lie. Part of it is the area of the country I live in, they really are taller in the midwest. When I travel for work I don't feel as short...then I come home. I'm actually planning a move to a more diverse area just to get past that.

With body shape, I have my own in house gym, so I've been a weight lifter for years. Honestly, part of my problem was joining the bodybuilding . com forum and seeing all the height garbage on the misc. Laughable I know, but that is part of what started all this. (inb4 Alu schools me on being butt hurt over hyperbolic internet comments, lol)

I don't get jealous over billionaires, I do get jealous over guys my height or shorter that have a stronger mental frame of mind though.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on April 24, 2016, 04:06:44 AM
Thanks DIFM, wise words.

You stand 5'10 in your shoes? I stand 5'9 in my boots after an additional 1/2" lift, so not that much shorter.

I feel short, I won't lie. Part of it is the area of the country I live in, they really are taller in the midwest. When I travel for work I don't feel as short...then I come home. I'm actually planning a move to a more diverse area just to get past that.

With body shape, I have my own in house gym, so I've been a weight lifter for years. Honestly, part of my problem was joining the bodybuilding . com forum and seeing all the height garbage on the misc. Laughable I know, but that is part of what started all this. (inb4 Alu schools me on being butt hurt over hyperbolic internet comments, lol)

I do it for the love of reason and logic. I've had the internet for most of my life, I know how stupid it can be. And how god damn hilarious it can be as well:

https://twitter.com/meninisttweet/status/695351898447065088
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 24, 2016, 11:04:49 AM
DIFM, thank you for answering

do you mean you are an asian blood?

do you recommend this it to someone who is 167 cm like me?
Yes, I'm Asian. Do you have a lot of money and free time, and feel physical and mental pain when you look at a mirror? If so, then this surgery might help you get past that feeling of disgust when you look in a mirror or pictures of yourself next to taller people. But I want to make it very clear that that's the only real benefit from LL. Some people have these wild ideas that life is so much better being taller. And it is better, but it's only slightly better. Like now I can date a girl who's 5'8", when before I couldn't. But, before I'd date a girl who's 5'5". No big difference in my opinion, because in both cases, I was not single. Some say that they'll make more money being taller. But I made more money than 99.99% of the world while being really short. So I don't think it matters as much as people think it does. Some say that less people will make fun of them for being short. But you simply just have to ignore them, because if they don't make fun of you for that, they'll make fun of you for something else. There will always be something someone will not like about you.

Thanks DIFM, wise words.

You stand 5'10 in your shoes? I stand 5'9 in my boots after an additional 1/2" lift, so not that much shorter.

I feel short, I won't lie. Part of it is the area of the country I live in, they really are taller in the midwest. When I travel for work I don't feel as short...then I come home. I'm actually planning a move to a more diverse area just to get past that.

With body shape, I have my own in house gym, so I've been a weight lifter for years. Honestly, part of my problem was joining the bodybuilding . com forum and seeing all the height garbage on the misc. Laughable I know, but that is part of what started all this. (inb4 Alu schools me on being butt hurt over hyperbolic internet comments, lol)

I don't get jealous over billionaires, I do get jealous over guys my height or shorter that have a stronger mental frame of mind though.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Man, that bodybuilding forum is toxic along with any old forum with that height garbage. I used to be like you and looked at study after study about how being short is disadvantaged. It really beat my self-esteem down. But there was a period of time even before LL when I stopped letting my own height bother me. And that was when I stopped browsing height-related forums such as this forum. It lasted for a good two years that I didn't think about my height. My mistake was looking into LL again, and then again going back to hurting myself by looking at how short people got the short end of the stick. It really helps to stop looking at forums like these, because you will end up feeling bad about yourself if you do. And why subjugate yourself to that torture? Focus on what's going great in your life. Measure your self-worth based on what you've accomplished rather than your height.

And yes, I know what you mean by feeling short by being surrounded by taller people. My best friend since childhood is 6'1". So you can see how I always felt short. But the reason why I was cured of my height neurosis even at 5'8", was because I was taller than most girls at that point. It was very rare for a girl to be taller than me. Plenty of guys taller than me, but I was almost always taller than the girls. And that really changed my perspective. I just tuned out all the guys and didn't really pay much attention to their height. And only focused on comparing myself to the women I saw. And then I felt tall. It also helps that I'm no longer an entire head shorter than my best friend. But surrounding myself with shorter people and/or only paying attention to shorter people really helped.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 24, 2016, 03:00:26 PM
I do it for the love of reason and logic. I've had the internet for most of my life, I know how stupid it can be. And how god damn hilarious it can be as well:

https://twitter.com/meninisttweet/status/695351898447065088

lol

This forum needs voices of reason like you Alu! There are people here who are literally insane. (I hope I'm not one of them  ??? )
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on April 24, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
DIFM,

You should of been a therapist instead of a wildly successful app developer.

Just kidding, most therapists and shrinks make very poor money.

But yeah, I let the internet (and some irl events) destroy my self-esteem. Validating to know I'm not the only one that has fallen down that rabbit hole.

Thanks for the reality check.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: chineseguy on April 24, 2016, 03:24:26 PM
thanks DIFM,    I have a lot of time ,  my parent support me,   my salary from being java programmer on xiamen is not enough.  i dont envy rich people . i envy tall people  who is 175cm.   this thing start after i graduate college. I see i am taller than my mom just by 3 cm and my brother is now 177 cm tall. my dad is 173cm,  also job require most 170 cm in china,  height discirimation is too much in china,  i hated it will be harder to have a 165 cm wife but not imposibble just harder


how your best friend feel when you do this?   any bad reaction,  did your friend notice it? what you say to him?

why did you choose femur over tibia before?    I was thinking doing tibia before but i hate scar and i can still wear lift when doing femur

why not guicet too
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on April 24, 2016, 08:41:16 PM
thanks DIFM,    I have a lot of time ,  my parent support me,   my salary from being java programmer on xiamen is not enough.  i dont envy rich people . i envy tall people  who is 175cm.   this thing start after i graduate college. I see i am taller than my mom just by 3 cm and my brother is now 177 cm tall. my dad is 173cm,  also job require most 170 cm in china,  height discirimation is too much in china,  i hated it will be harder to have a 165 cm wife but not imposibble just harder


how your best friend feel when you do this?   any bad reaction,  did your friend notice it? what you say to him?

why did you choose femur over tibia before?    I was thinking doing tibia before but i hate scar and i can still wear lift when doing femur

why not guicet too
None of my friends know that I had LL. I wore 2" lifts prior to surgery to get my friends used to my new height. But I didn't start with 2". I slowly eased them into it with 1", then 1.5", then 2". To them, I've just been getting taller and taller gradually.

I chose femur because I figured that it's easier to lengthen. I also heard that tibia can cause permanent knee pain when kneeling. I don't think I'd have gotten 8 cm on tibia. My shin muscles are very thick and not very flexible to begin with. And yes, it's easier to hide scars with femurs, because you can still wear shorts and the scars are hidden. If you wear shorts with tibia, scars will be visible. But scars can also be removed with laser scar removal surgery. I plan on getting that after I get my rods removed, so that there's no evidence of LL.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on May 07, 2016, 05:29:38 PM
Hey DIFM, quick question, have you physically measured yourself on a height scale or even a tape measure to make sure you gained what the surgeon told you did, or are you basing it strictly on the Precice CM gain that is calculated on the X-ray? 
I am asking because I've been told by others the physical gain is differing from the gain shown on the X-ray.
Thank you again for all your entries, you're a hero and helping others tremendously
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on May 07, 2016, 11:18:06 PM
I personally feel like I gained more than the precise cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: determination on May 08, 2016, 10:02:22 AM
I personally feel like I gained more than the precise cm.

I think the important is what you fill like! Not the exact cm. right?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 15, 2016, 09:09:15 AM
Hey DIFM, quick question, have you physically measured yourself on a height scale or even a tape measure to make sure you gained what the surgeon told you did, or are you basing it strictly on the Precice CM gain that is calculated on the X-ray? 
I am asking because I've been told by others the physical gain is differing from the gain shown on the X-ray.
Thank you again for all your entries, you're a hero and helping others tremendously
T
The gain was a little over 8 cm when they used the height scale at the beginning and end of my lengthening. Either they measured me wrong in the beginning or my spine decompressed from all the lying around in bed. Or maybe a combination of both. I also went home to measure myself to make sure that they weren't lying about the gain. It was correct. I used a measuring tape to measure the height of a marking I made on the wall where the top of my head is.

What you might have heard is that the x-ray and actual height are a bit different. That is because the x-rays aren't accurate. But the doctors are aware of it and do tell you how much you should/may have actually gained.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on May 17, 2016, 06:42:36 PM
Hello DIFM,
How is your gait or lack of it lately?  Is your waking back to complete normal?  If so, how long did it take from the time you started consolidating or the time you were given permission to walk without aids?  Thank you again
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 28, 2016, 03:35:07 AM
Update: X-rays show that my bones have stopped growing in the past 2 months sadly. This means that I'm still left with no bone growth on the left side of my left leg and right side of my right leg. The right leg looks a bit more promising, because the bone is only about 1-2 inches apart - meaning that some growth has occurred in the past year. But the left leg looks like a lost cause, because the gap is still about 3 inches long. So it means that barely any growth has occurred. Paley said that I can't remove the rods while my bones are like this. I'll have to get a bone graft. Sigh.

I started using the Exogen machine again. My last one broke 2 months ago after about 200 uses. So if you buy an exogen 4000 on ebay, keep in mind that it'll probably break after around 200 uses. I also stopped taking calcium and vitamin D supplements a month ago, because I was getting pretty good sun exposure and eating healthy food. But now after seeing no bone growth for the past 2 months, I'm starting to do what I did originally and using the Exogen twice per day, drinking a lot of milk, and taking calcium/vitamin D supplements. I'll let you guys know if this helps my bone start growing again in about 3 months. I've decided to stop doing x-rays monthly, because there's almost no progress anyway.

The only good news I have to report is that I'm able to do the missionary and pronebone sex positions without problems now, when before I reported that I had trouble with it because of the loss of flexibility. Lots of stretching in the past few months, especially Thomas stretch, is what fixed it.

In reply to Tiger5:
My gait is near normal at this point. A lot of it has to do with regaining my strength using the adductor and abductor machines at my gym. Those muscles helped me stop walking like a penguin. You'll have to go through my full diary to get an exact time of when I was able to do something. The timeline was something like this:

2-months post-op: Using crutches.
3-months post-op: Reached 8 cm and stopped lengthening.
4-months post-op: Flexibility improving, still mostly using the wheelchair.
5-months post-op: Able to touch my ankles to my thighs finally. Using mostly crutches instead of wheelchair now.
6-months post-op: Able to walk short distances without crutches, but only by doing baby steps. Able to touch my toes while standing up straight.
7-months post-op: Officially given the okay to walk without crutches, but I was secretly doing it for a month and a half already.
8-months post-op: Still in pain, mostly in my adductor/abductor muscles. Able to walk a few miles per day now, but will be in a lot of pain.
9-months post-op: Pains starting to go away. Mostly working out at the gym and doing adductor/abductor workouts got rid of the pain.
10-months post-op: Almost no pain now. Can walk long distances without pain. Legs getting its muscle definition back and butt is returning.
11-months post-op: Can do a slow jog now. Still no okay from the doctor to run, jump, or do sports. Can do all sex positions I was able to do before.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on May 28, 2016, 04:08:27 AM
I hope everything goes well and thanks for letting us know that about the Exogen.  Are you giving up on the left?  Or are you hoping for the best and then just keeping the bone graft as a backup plan?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 28, 2016, 05:56:58 AM
I hope everything goes well and thanks for letting us know that about the Exogen.  Are you giving up on the left?  Or are you hoping for the best and then just keeping the bone graft as a backup plan?
Before I was using the Exogen only once a day. But Paley told me to use it once every 12 hours now. I'm also consuming about 200% of my needed calcium intake per day now to try to stimulate bone growth. I'm not going to take more than that, because I'm afraid of developing kidney stones. My expectation is that my right leg might fully heal after 3-6 months if I do this. I don't have much hope for my left leg, but we'll see. My best guess is that my left leg will probably need a bone graft. The fact that Paley even mentioned a bone graft probably means that I need one, because he's been mostly optimistic prior to this x-ray.

I'll be happy if at least my right leg can heal fully without a bone graft. Because then at least I'll only be on crutches with one leg, which is significantly better than on both legs. I'm really not looking forward to another surgery. But it goes to show that complications can happen, even with Dr. Paley. Potential LLers, don't take this surgery lightly.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on June 01, 2016, 10:57:29 PM
I checked with the Exogen Company Tech support about this device, was told that it expires after 30 to 40 days of non-use, also it expires after 6 months even it is used.  They would be willing to reset it or send another one only if the doctor issues a prescription based on bone not consolidating or in cases of non-union.  Tech support said those devices bought form EBay, Amazon or private sellers will not work.  However what I read from your last post that it worked contradicting what Tech Supp said.  It's news to me and I suppose I need to do more research
Thanks for your info
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 02, 2016, 07:21:36 PM
It might depend on the model. Mine is an older model called Exogen 4000. It doesn't have a calendar like the newer models, and thus doesn't keep track of dates. It keeps track of uses, though.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on June 02, 2016, 11:59:33 PM
Hey DIFM, thanks for the update and information on the recovery timeline. Good to see you're noticing return to functionality, that's great to hear!

Considering that you've been busy under the sheets and all (you sly dog), have girls ever mentioned your long legs or anything of that matter? Both under the sheets and just around in life, seeing as how you're returning to regular life

Lastly, if you can, how far do your knees go up when you bend your legs close to your body? Like as if you're gonna do a cannon ball in a swimming pool. I guess I'm just trying to see how long might be too long for me, since my brain as gone into a spiral about how I might look after around 8 CM.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on June 03, 2016, 01:46:39 AM
did you get your vitamin D levels checked?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 07, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
I am taking Vitamin D supplements now, so my Vit D levels should be okay. I'll update you guys on my x-rays when I get them 2-3 months from now. I really hope I don't have to get another surgery other than rod removal. Not looking forward to more scars, pain, loss of time/money, and complications.

Hey DIFM, thanks for the update and information on the recovery timeline. Good to see you're noticing return to functionality, that's great to hear!

Considering that you've been busy under the sheets and all (you sly dog), have girls ever mentioned your long legs or anything of that matter? Both under the sheets and just around in life, seeing as how you're returning to regular life

Lastly, if you can, how far do your knees go up when you bend your legs close to your body? Like as if you're gonna do a cannon ball in a swimming pool. I guess I'm just trying to see how long might be too long for me, since my brain as gone into a spiral about how I might look after around 8 CM.
Yes. A girl said that I look disproportional. I have mentioned this before that my knees look oddly too low on where they should be, even though prior to LL, I had a .8 shin to thigh ratio (which is normal according to Paley). With pants/shorts on, I look fine, because they hide my legs proportions. But nked, I look weird. This is one of the main reasons why I wouldn't recommend this surgery especially if your plan is to be physically more attractive to the opposite sex.

My knees go to where nose is if I do a cannonball pose. But what's more ugly/deformed looking is that when I bend my knees, my heel is touching the middle of my thigh when before it touched my butt.

I also want to mention that my sex drive is diminished after the surgery. I've noticed this in other diaries as well. This is another reason why I wouldn't recommend this surgery. I'm not sure if it's psychological or physical. Most likely physical, as my stamina is significantly worse than before.

Anyway, it's approaching a year since I had this surgery. Looking back, I'd say that I don't recommend this surgery. Yes, girls are less dismissive of me because of my height now. In fact, a lot of people have called me "tall" in the past few months. I've never been described as "tall" before in my life. But these girls are no better or worse than the girls who dated me who didn't care about my height. Yes, my height neurosis is gone now, but I've replaced it with other things I'm dissatisfied with myself, such as my lack of athleticism caused by this surgery. Sports stop being enjoyable when you suck at it. My friends don't treat me any differently. Even girls from the past who dismissed me for my height don't treat me any differently. So in other words, there are not many benefits to this surgery. I still have minor aches and pain in my legs while walking and doing other leg-related activities. For me, it's a fair trade off, because it fixed what I hated the most about myself. But for others, I'd say the amount of time/money you have to put into this surgery to get that is far more valuable spent elsewhere. I happen to have a lot of time/money, so that part of the surgery doesn't bother me. I don't regret this surgery, because I don't regret anything I do. But I can see why someone would regret this surgery.

My recommendation for anyone looking into LL is to surround yourself with people who don't care about your height and to get away from people who do. For example, if you're an Asian, don't surround yourself with people who think of Asians as second-class citizens. They will put you down and make you feel less of a person. In the same vein, if you surround yourself with people who hate short people or surround yourself with short people who complain about being hated for being short, you will feel less of a person. I made this mistake by browsing these LL forums and short self-help groups. A lot of the posts that point out discrimination against short people only made me feel worse about being short.

The only time I didn't think about LL and was okay with being short was when I stopped browsing these forums and stopped looking at how being short is disadvantaged. Being short is disadvantageous, but so are many other things. You can still live a great life without LL. I did just that prior to LL. Don't discount yourself so much just because some other people do.

On a lighter note, there IS one benefit to LL that I think is hard to achieve while being short. And it's that I now can see over people in a crowd.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on June 09, 2016, 01:26:27 AM
Hey thanks for the reply. Always great to hear from you!

I have two more queries:

1) If you can, and I promise this will be the last thing I physically ask you to do lol, if you do the Thomas test Stretch (standing or laying down), how far does you knee go? Nose again or around what level of the torso?

2) Do you think you wouldn't have gotten the disproportionate comment from her, if say you had done quadrilateral and lengthen both segments equally? I'm assuming you must be comfortable (or not have received) any comments regarding your body to legs.

(Quick non-LL question: you still recommend that book that got you into coding? I'm planning on reading something over the summer so i thought I'd give that a shot.)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 09, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
1) The middle of my neck.
2) I don't know why she said that I look disproportional specifically. I didn't want to probe further. I'm going to guess that it either means that my legs are too long or my femurs are too long compared to my tibs or both. My guess is probably both. With clothes on, I look proportional. Nobody has ever commented that I look disproportional with clothes on. The most common comment was that I look tall, which I admit is kind of nice.

Yea, I still recommend that book.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on June 09, 2016, 06:51:42 AM
You will still recover! I've read it takes longer than a year for a near-full/full recovery. Hopefully those aches and pains aren't permanent.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 09, 2016, 12:52:16 PM
1) The middle of my neck.
2) I don't know why she said that I look disproportional specifically. I didn't want to probe further. I'm going to guess that it either means that my legs are too long or my femurs are too long compared to my tibs or both. My guess is probably both. With clothes on, I look proportional. Nobody has ever commented that I look disproportional with clothes on. The most common comment was that I look tall, which I admit is kind of nice.

Yea, I still recommend that book.

Just guessing, but I doubt she said it because your legs are too long, probably the femur ratio. I say this because I have Asians in my family (I'm white, so by marriage to cousins and such) and generally they are shorter guys. But the two that are taller (5'9?) have long legs compared to white men.

Also, I grew up in a mostly black and Asian area, and the tall Asians had long legs, especially the Koreans. Not sure what flavor of Asian you are, but there is my anecdotal evidence for the day.

My family members are Philippino and Japanese.

Also, great advice on your recent update. Having Asians in my family I know they can be treated poorly sometimes by society, I've seen it.

I've read that calcium and vitamin d are more readily absorbed by the body if you take them while consuming fats at the same time, so the example was to take them while eating a couple of scrambled eggs, hope that helps.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: axelf on June 09, 2016, 01:58:58 PM
As long as you don't look like a t-rex (lol), it doesn't matter if she commented on that. Her commenting that doesn't even necessarily mean that it's negative in her opinion.

I have received some comments about my legs/arms/body/hands/face/whatever as well ranging from negative to noticeable or positive. A lot of them I had sex with, no matter if it was negative or positive. So just relax  :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 09, 2016, 02:21:29 PM
As long as you don't look like a t-rex (lol), it doesn't matter if she commented on that. Her commenting that doesn't even necessarily mean that it's negative in her opinion.

I have received some comments about my legs/arms/body/hands/face/whatever as well ranging from negative to noticeable or positive. A lot of them I had sex with, no matter if it was negative or positive. So just relax  :)

This. So much this.

Women talk. That's what they do. Most of it is just testing to see if you are secure with yourself. Its not even concious on their part, usually.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Cheez on June 09, 2016, 05:36:10 PM
This. So much this.

Women talk. That's what they do. Most of it is just testing to see if you are secure with yourself. Its not even concious on their part, usually.

+1
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 12, 2016, 04:26:04 AM
Just guessing, but I doubt she said it because your legs are too long, probably the femur ratio. I say this because I have Asians in my family (I'm white, so by marriage to cousins and such) and generally they are shorter guys. But the two that are taller (5'9?) have long legs compared to white men.

Also, I grew up in a mostly black and Asian area, and the tall Asians had long legs, especially the Koreans. Not sure what flavor of Asian you are, but there is my anecdotal evidence for the day.

My family members are Philippino and Japanese.

Also, great advice on your recent update. Having Asians in my family I know they can be treated poorly sometimes by society, I've seen it.

I've read that calcium and vitamin d are more readily absorbed by the body if you take them while consuming fats at the same time, so the example was to take them while eating a couple of scrambled eggs, hope that helps.
Thanks. The calcium/vit d bottle also says to take it with meals, so I've been doing just that.

As long as you don't look like a t-rex (lol), it doesn't matter if she commented on that. Her commenting that doesn't even necessarily mean that it's negative in her opinion.

I have received some comments about my legs/arms/body/hands/face/whatever as well ranging from negative to noticeable or positive. A lot of them I had sex with, no matter if it was negative or positive. So just relax  :)
It was a negative comment. But I'm not going to let it bother me. At this point, there's nothing I can do about it except do tibia lengthening to fix the ratio. But like I said before, I don't recommend this surgery. And even with the option of tibia lengthening and plenty of free time/money to do it, I'm not going to do it. I'm certainly not going to do it just because a girl said that I look weird. I'm pretty satisfied with who I am now and I'm sticking to that. I ain't going to let anyone convince me otherwise. And I hope you guys can figure out how to be satisfied/comfortable with your physical looks without this surgery.

You will still recover! I've read it takes longer than a year for a near-full/full recovery. Hopefully those aches and pains aren't permanent.
There was a period of time around April when my legs weren't in pain anymore. So I doubt that the pain is permanent. It was the time that I stopped using the exogen machine, did leg workouts every other day, stopped taking calcium/vit d supplements, and walked more often. I suspect that one of these are the culprit for the pain that returned to my inner thigh. Fortunately I can report that the pain in my left TFL (the head of the femur) has been gone for months now.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: alps on June 12, 2016, 07:07:16 AM
did you get your vit D levels measured? even with taking supplements, levels might not jump up back to normal right away.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Cheez on June 12, 2016, 08:51:27 AM
@DIFM
I think with LL you achieved that peace of mind, that most of the people on this forum are after.
So congratulations on that.

But, and that's the point, I think you wouldn't be able to have this relaxed attitude if you haven't done LL in the first place.

As somebody who is still affected by this you can try to tell yourself all the time that this won't bother you, but in the end, when you have one of these heightism situations, you will crave that peace of mind that you achieved, DIFM.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jessie Believer on June 12, 2016, 08:51:49 AM
Hey DIFM!

How much Vit D and calcium did your doctor recommend you to take? I'm in my consolidating phase and mine didn't recommend a specific amount.

Thanks.

JB
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 13, 2016, 01:37:31 AM
@DIFM
I think with LL you achieved that peace of mind, that most of the people on this forum are after.
So congratulations on that.

But, and that's the point, I think you wouldn't be able to have this relaxed attitude if you haven't done LL in the first place.

As somebody who is still affected by this you can try to tell yourself all the time that this won't bother you, but in the end, when you have one of these heightism situations, you will crave that peace of mind that you achieved, DIFM.
I get where you're coming from. I was in that position right before I got LL, too. But, I lived a pretty great life prior to LL and it would have continued to be great even without LL. I knew about LL two years before I got the surgery, and in those two years, I put my height and LL in the back of my mind. I was able to do it before I stopped thinking about height and all of its disadvantages. For example, I'm an Asian immigrant with an Asian accent living in a mostly white town. People made fun of me for my race and accent all my life. And as you may or may not know, white girls don't really date asian guys. So it was extra hard for me to find a girlfriend. But you don't see me cursing everyday that I'm Asian. You don't see me trying to bleach my skin to look white. At some point, you just learn to live with it and forget that you're different. You learn to be comfortable living in your own skin, sort of speak.

A few people called me brave for doing this surgery. But I think the brave ones are the ones who don't do the surgery and can live their life fully and happily without letting heightism push you into breaking your legs and wasting time/money. People often ask me here on the forum why I did it then. I didn't let other people's opinions bother me that much, but I was my own harshest critic. I'm a perfectionist, an overachiever, a person who won't settle for mediocre. And that was also my flaw, because it drove me to do this painful surgery since I wasn't happy with the way I looked. After the surgery, I'm more relaxed and lenient towards myself. I'm more accepting of the fact that I can't be a "perfect" man. This was the revelation that came too late. I could spiral back down the rabbit hole again and focus on my disproportions and lack of athleticism. But I'm done. My level of happiness stayed the same before and after LL. The difference is that I lost a year of my life and lost 100k+. I should have accepted who I was sooner and before the surgery. So while I understand the mental torment you go through, I'm also offering you a solution that doesn't require all this sacrifice. Make peace with yourself and avoid the negative people. I think you'll be much happier. This is probably something you won't understand until you get the surgery and go through all the torture. It certainly didn't click for me until after the surgery. But perhaps for some of you, you'll understand what I'm saying and realize that I just saved you from making a huge mistake.

Just remember that the grass always looks greener on the other side. But once you get there, you'll realize it's all the same.

Hey DIFM!

How much Vit D and calcium did your doctor recommend you to take? I'm in my consolidating phase and mine didn't recommend a specific amount.

Thanks.

JB
I'm taking 250-400% the daily recommended amount of Vitamin D and around 120-200% the calcium depending on how much milk I drink for the day or how much sun exposure I have. This wasn't something the doctor recommended. But it's a little more than what the Silica supplements he recommended offered. I wouldn't overdo it with the vitamins/calcium, though, because too much of it can be bad for you, too - such as developing kidney stones.

did you get your vit D levels measured? even with taking supplements, levels might not jump up back to normal right away.

No, I haven't.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 13, 2016, 02:58:23 AM
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/why-does-the-vitamin-d-council-recommend-5000-iuday/

The vitamin d council says 5,000 iu per day. I've been taking 50,000 iu a week for over a decade with no troubles. You can overdose on vitamin d, but the endocrine association says that up to 70,000 iu a week is safe.

If you're taking 400% the daily government recommendation, you're probably still low. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 13, 2016, 04:25:33 AM
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/why-does-the-vitamin-d-council-recommend-5000-iuday/

The vitamin d council says 5,000 iu per day. I've been taking 50,000 iu a week for over a decade with no troubles. You can overdose on vitamin d, but the endocrine association says that up to 70,000 iu a week is safe.

If you're taking 400% the daily government recommendation, you're probably still low. Hope that helps.
You should know the difference between Vitamin D3 and Vitamin D2. The 50,000 iu per week that the doctor prescribes is Vitamin D2 (I'm sure of it, because my doctor gave me the same thing), which is the synthetic Vitamin D and is not as efficient as Vitamin D3. I'm taking Vitamin D3 supplements at 1,000 iu per day and also eating fish and drinking milk everyday (both have Vitamin D3). Here's a link, but you can use google to find out more: http://saveourbones.com/the-huge-difference-between-vitamins-d3-and-d2-and-why-you-should-never-take-d2/
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Hulk on June 13, 2016, 09:28:43 AM
Great journal! its been a pleasure following page by page, very inspiring and packed with information. I wish you recovery soon, sorry to hear the long delay your experiencing. Thanks for sharing your time to explain your story, keep it up!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on June 13, 2016, 02:56:01 PM
Hi DIFM,
Speaking of proportions,what do you think about your arms?How they look when you wear a t-shirt or when you get nked?Did anyone said something about them?Did you ever get uncomfortable when you look at the mirror because of your arms?
I care more about arms proportions than legs.You can hide legs with clothes but its not like that with arms.Especially when wearing t-shirts..
I remember you said that you are now over your winspan.(5cm)That is also my goal.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 13, 2016, 03:41:27 PM
You should know the difference between Vitamin D3 and Vitamin D2. The 50,000 iu per week that the doctor prescribes is Vitamin D2 (I'm sure of it, because my doctor gave me the same thing), which is the synthetic Vitamin D and is not as efficient as Vitamin D3. I'm taking Vitamin D3 supplements at 1,000 iu per day and also eating fish and drinking milk everyday (both have Vitamin D3). Here's a link, but you can use google to find out more: http://saveourbones.com/the-huge-difference-between-vitamins-d3-and-d2-and-why-you-should-never-take-d2/

Hey DIFM,

It's hard to tell "tone" with written word, so I'll explain that I am not trying to argue with you here. Just trying to be helpful is all...

I take D3. I buy "Simply Right" brand from Sam's Club. They are 5,000 IU of D3 per pill. (D3 Cholecalciferol)

I take 2 pills per day, Monday through Friday. Total of 50,000 IU per week. This was recommended to me by a doctor I had gone to for erectile problems a few years back. (I also had total testosterone tested, estradiol levels tested, and free testosterone levels tested)

I can feel the effects of this much D3, but could not feel the effects at the level you listed that you are taking. It does take a few weeks to notice though.

It has made a huge (heh) positive difference in the quality of my erections, and my mood in general.

A guy I lift with takes testosterone injections for low T due to abusing anabolic steroids, and takes 70,000 IU's of D3 per week, which supposedly is the max safe limit, but I cannot find a source for that online. (I didn't look very hard though)

It was also recommended to me to take 100mg of Zinc, and 200mg of an amino acid called L-Theanine by this same doctor.

Between these 3 supplements, my wife has a hard time keeping up with me!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on June 13, 2016, 05:14:27 PM
My take on what you are going through DIFM.

 You are absolutely right. One can have a wonderful life at any given height. But the problem is not really based on reality but it is inside the mind... What I mean is that through introspection (I am talking months of it not a day or two), I got to the sad and tragic conclusion that it doesnt matter how good I am with women, how successful I am at school/work or in my social circles, this height BDD is completely indipendent of anything. There isnt any real life logical base as to why your height disturbes you... It's just there.
  Now that the clouds of this height BDD are gone, you can finally witness how good your life was and is still is and will continue to be.
For me, just the removal of this toxic fog is more than worth it in order to do the surgery.
 
You should embrace and be happy that you finally "cured" yourself of this BDD (even if by extremes measures).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLCaptain on June 13, 2016, 06:13:36 PM
What I mean is that through introspection (I am talking months of it not a day or two), I got to the sad and tragic conclusion that it doesnt matter how good I am with women, how successful I am at school/work or in my social circles, this height BDD is completely indipendent of anything. There isnt any real life logical base as to why your height disturbes you... It's just there.

You make little sense and I think you have almost no credibility.

Months ago you spent all your time promoting an Italian doc and trying to justify doing external tibs. You did a complete 180 and potentially slandered the doc, then came back because you couldn't forget about LL.

Our mind is shaped by millions of interactions with others and ourselves. How can you say BDD has no "real life logical base" and that "its just there"?

I think that you are probably not very good with women, is still student and have not even entered the professional world. No wonder you're depressed?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on June 13, 2016, 06:27:36 PM
There isnt any real life logical base as to why your height disturbes you...
It's not that abnormal to worry about something bad even when your situation's good.
1) It's in our nature to worry. People don't usually feel completely at peace and that everything is ok without second guesses every now and then
2) Just cause everything's good now doesn't mean it always will be. Fixing a problem(assuming it is) justifies itself.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on June 13, 2016, 06:28:02 PM
You make little sense and I think you have almost no credibility.

Months ago you spent all your time promoting an Italian doc and trying to justify doing external tibs. You did a complete 180 and potentially slandered the doc, then came back because you couldn't forget about LL.

Our mind is shaped by millions of interactions with others and ourselves. How can you say BDD has no "real life logical base" and that "its just there"?

I think that you are probably not very good with women, is still student and have not even entered the professional world. No wonder you're depressed?

1) My credibility in your eyes it your own personal issue (Which is not important since you are already post LL)

2) I still believe Catagni is the best option (or one of the best) when it comes to external tibias

3) I still beleive that external tibias are much safer than femurs

4) I never slandered the doc. I was scared off by a false account created by a family friend situated in north america.

5) I have had success with women just like every average man.. Some men had it better others had it worse.

6) I am still a student because med school is long

BDD has nothing to do with logic or real life you know... It is a mental problem that I suffer from, you suffer/suffered from and basically every man and woman here suffer from.

But if it makes you feel good about yourself, I will say that I am a depressed forever alone kind of guy so you will be happy
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 13, 2016, 07:00:51 PM
It's not that abnormal to worry about something bad even when your situation's good.
1) It's in our nature to worry. People don't usually feel completely at peace and that everything is ok without second guesses every now and then
2) Just cause everything's good now doesn't mean it always will be. Fixing a problem(assuming it is) justifies itself.

I agree with this. However, judging by your prior posts, you don't have BDD. (wanting to be 5'5 in your country is rational)

Lord knows this forum is long overdue for a rational discussion on BDD, but I hardly think DIFM's diary is the place for it.

Anyway, BDD is a full blown mental disorder, a mental illness, and a very dangerous one at that. If anyone here even suspects they have BDD, they need to get to a mental health professional ASAP.

BDD has absolutely no basis in reality. Being worried about height is *NOT* BDD. Wanting to do LL to increase your dating pool or the respect from your peers is *NOT* BDD.

Discounting your entire worth as a human being based off your height *IS* BDD.

You can be unhappy with height, and the social implications that has for you, and not have BDD. That is rational.

BDD is the result of cognitive distortions about how YOU feel about YOURSELF. It's the over-generalized, black & white, polarized and obsessive thinking that distinguishes BDD, the mental illness, from just being unhappy with your height.

It is not based on how society treats you based off height or any other external factor.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on June 13, 2016, 07:10:48 PM
^+1
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CCMidwest on June 13, 2016, 07:25:58 PM
^+1

Thanks Penguinn, but I suspect my post will be ignored by the forum at large.

Again, if anyone reading this suspects they have BDD, GET HELP.

This is the exact reason I have decided against LL for myself. I have full BDD, and am not in a rational state of mind. If I was more in the state of mind you are Penguinn, or Deads or Alu for example, and still felt like LL was something I wanted to do, then I might do it.

There are benefits to being taller.

But I'm not in that state of mind, I'm mentally ill. And I will NOT risk everything I have worked so hard for in my life and make that decision while feeling this way.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 13, 2016, 08:11:03 PM
Hi DIFM,
Speaking of proportions,what do you think about your arms?How they look when you wear a t-shirt or when you get nked?Did anyone said something about them?Did you ever get uncomfortable when you look at the mirror because of your arms?
I care more about arms proportions than legs.You can hide legs with clothes but its not like that with arms.Especially when wearing t-shirts..
I remember you said that you are now over your winspan.(5cm)That is also my goal.
Since my wingspan is 170cm to begin with, I don't look disproportional in that regard. I also have the average hand size of 7.25 inches (18.5 cm). I don't think being 5 cm over your wingspan is that noticeable. But I do have thick, muscular arms, so my arms look "short" because of it. Nobody has ever commented that I had short arms, though. I think most people understand that thick, muscular arms just look short, but are actually okay length. If your ape index (height to wingspan difference) is more than 3 inches, you might get away with it if you had skinny arms. For example, my arms are longer than my female friend's arm, but her arm looks longer because they're skinnier.

Hey DIFM,

It's hard to tell "tone" with written word, so I'll explain that I am not trying to argue with you here. Just trying to be helpful is all...

I take D3. I buy "Simply Right" brand from Sam's Club. They are 5,000 IU of D3 per pill. (D3 Cholecalciferol)

I take 2 pills per day, Monday through Friday. Total of 50,000 IU per week. This was recommended to me by a doctor I had gone to for erectile problems a few years back. (I also had total testosterone tested, estradiol levels tested, and free testosterone levels tested)

I can feel the effects of this much D3, but could not feel the effects at the level you listed that you are taking. It does take a few weeks to notice though.

It has made a huge (heh) positive difference in the quality of my erections, and my mood in general.

A guy I lift with takes testosterone injections for low T due to abusing anabolic steroids, and takes 70,000 IU's of D3 per week, which supposedly is the max safe limit, but I cannot find a source for that online. (I didn't look very hard though)

It was also recommended to me to take 100mg of Zinc, and 200mg of an amino acid called L-Theanine by this same doctor.

Between these 3 supplements, my wife has a hard time keeping up with me!
I'm not arguing with you either. I'm also trying to be helpful. I thought you meant you took one pill of 50,000 IU Vitamin D per week. That's what my doctor prescribed me when I was deficient. They only sell 50,000 IU pills in prescription form, so that's why I thought you were talking about Vitamin D2. But your post made me want to take more Vitamin D3, so I'm going to double my daily supplemental intake.

Thanks Penguinn, but I suspect my post will be ignored by the forum at large.

Again, if anyone reading this suspects they have BDD, GET HELP.

This is the exact reason I have decided against LL for myself. I have full BDD, and am not in a rational state of mind. If I was more in the state of mind you are Penguinn, or Deads or Alu for example, and still felt like LL was something I wanted to do, then I might do it.

There are benefits to being taller.

But I'm not in that state of mind, I'm mentally ill. And I will NOT risk everything I have worked so hard for in my life and make that decision while feeling this way.
That's a very rational thought. I advise anyone who's thinking about doing LL to only do it when happy and not depressed. Don't do the surgery while depressed, because you'll just become even more depressed. I wouldn't even suggest doing it to get girls. Because if you suck at getting girls at 5'5", you'll still suck at it at 5'8". Prove to yourself that you can get a girl first, and don't ever do this surgery for someone else. Nobody's opinion of you is worth sacrificing this much for. Especially if that opinion is for an uncontrollable physical trait of yours.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on June 20, 2016, 03:30:51 AM
Hey DIFM,

Thanks for the response!
 
I think if anything you shouldn't worry much about.

Here take a look at this guy at 3:40 mark. It's pretty obvious he has longer femurs than normal. So if you look anything remotely close to that, I wouldn't worry to much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGEKRjlZKf8
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on June 28, 2016, 04:18:09 PM
So I got a reply back from the girl who commented that I looked disproportional. It's my femur to tibia ratio, and it's only noticeable when I'm nked. When I'm not nked, nobody else has commented that I was disproportional. Instead, it's mostly positive comments about my height. It's weird when you get positive comments about your height when you spent your entire life getting negative comments about it. You can see why tall people have such a easier life compared to a short person. But, nobody really changed their attitudes towards me. I'm just no longer the butt end of short jokes. My friends all still treat me the same.

In terms of recovery

Annoyingly, my legs still get pain from standing for long periods of time. If I stand for an hour or two, my legs has aches and pains in specific spots - mainly where the pins holding up my nails are. I don't have pain anymore from just sitting around doing nothing like I used to have. But standing for more than 2 hours is torture at this point. Hopefully this will change when my legs get stronger and I remove the rods.

It's still hard to get up from a squatting position. It's not a fluid simple motion. I actually have to put effort into getting up from a squat.


Update on LL & sex positions

More practice is definitely what was needed. The mistakes I made before was that I tried doing the same angles and positions that I was used to, but the mechanics of sex are slightly different now. So the difference between pre-LL and post-LL (for femurs) are like this:
1) Doggy style is much easier now. Now that my femurs are much longer than the girl's, I can enter from a higher angle and hit the G spot easier. This was not possible when I had shorter femurs.
2) I can't fold my legs during missionary position anymore unless the girl is on a ramp or pillows. So with longer femurs and less flexibility, it's harder for me to fold and split my legs to get to a low angle. Before LL, I was able to do it. Now the girl has to be on a ramp for me to do it. And if we don't use props, then I have to straighten my legs to get low enough.
3) For a while, I couldn't do the pronebone position. Pronebone was the position I had to do when I had shorter femurs, because my femurs weren't long enough to do doggy style effectively. Now the opposite happened and pronebone is harder to do because my femurs are longer and I can't get in a lower angle even if I straightened my legs. That's because the pronebone position required you to bend your legs further back than just 180 degrees. Now that my flexibility has improved, I'm able to do pronebone again without getting soft from the pain from being overstretched.

After relearning how to have great sex again, sex is great again. I'm able to avoid putting my legs in weird positions, and therefore avoid feeling pain in my legs during sex. Without the awkwardness and pain, I don't get soft again, and my sex drive is back to what it was before LL.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: ortholengthening on July 03, 2016, 02:02:33 AM
after your 8 cm, it seems to me that it really took 1 year for you to feel fairly normal and well in your day to day activities.

good to know in terms of expectations
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: OregonMade on July 31, 2016, 02:38:27 AM
Its nothing close to torture.  I was tied up to a car battery once and questioned for 3 hours and I am a limb lengthening veteran.  Limb lengthening is not nearly as bad. 

Day 5:
Discharge day. Since they discharged me on a weekend, they actually made me pay $35 to hire a wheelchair-accessible taxi to bring me to the hospital. The Paley team messed up there and never reimbursed me for that. Turns out that there's actually a $5-8 roundtrip wheelchair-accessible taxi, and the hospital screwed me over by hiring the more expensive $35 one that was only one-way. They also tried to get me to buy the drugs from Garden Drugs Inc, which deliver to the hospital, but Garden Drugs Inc wanted $600+ for all drugs because my insurance wasn't accepted by them. I went with Walgreens instead, which also delivers to the hospital, and ended up paying only $300-400 for all drugs. Again, I suspect that the hospital gets some kind of cut for hiring the more expensive companies for the same services. I suggest not falling for their tricks.

Week 1 in the hotel (starting on the 5th day after surgery):
The hotel is not bad. $70 a night. Pots and induction stove suck. They barely get hot and are all warped. I don't suggest doing much cooking with it. Breakfast and dinner taste like food you get at a cheap buffet. They gave me stomachaches, because my stomach is sensitive to cheap foods.

In terms of pain, week 1 was the worst. Day 1 after discharge was the first and only time I experienced level 10 pain. They said level 10 pain is when you cry involuntarily. That's the only time I ever did. And the feeling is like if someone shot your parents in front of you and made you watch them die. Now imagine that emotional pain as a physical pain in your legs, and that's what it feels like. It's like if someone cut your leg open and decided to pull your wound apart with his salty, sweaty hands.

I realized why I was experiencing this pain. It's because it was first day off toradol and percocet, and I was going cold turkey with pain meds. The only pain med is Oxycodone, which I found out only lasts 1-2 hours and only kicks in after an hour. And you can only take 2 pills (10 mg) every 4 hours, so you have 2-3 hours of suffering. Since this is the closest time to my surgery without much pain meds, this was the first time I experience level 10 pain. First the first few days in hospital, I thought every patient who complained about pain was a wuss, because I didn't have much pain. I expecting pain levels like child-birthing pains, and never got to that level in the hospital.

Once I got to this level 10 pain, I finally realized what everyone was talking about. Yes, this was the most pain I ever felt in my life. This is probably what it feels like to be tortured.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 01, 2016, 06:13:21 AM
Its nothing close to torture.  I was tied up to a car battery once and questioned for 3 hours and I am a limb lengthening veteran.  Limb lengthening is not nearly as bad.
Dang. Sorry to hear that you got tortured. But you're one of the lucky ones then in terms of LL pain. But just because you didn't feel as much pain during LL doesn't mean that other people didn't. Perhaps you had better pain meds than I did. Perhaps your body adjusted to the new height better. Perhaps you were younger than me when you got the surgery and was more elastic. Perhaps you had more or less leg muscles than me.

But you're right. I've been shot by a taser before, and the taser was more painful. But LL is a different kind of pain. It's a pain that doesn't just abruptly end when the batteries run out. With a taser, it's very sharp pains. But it ends. With LL, the pain doesn't end. It might not be as intense, but it's drawn out. That's what I meant when I compared it to torture. I'm talking about how long and drawn out the pain is, and how little you can do to stop it if you don't have pain meds.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Moubgf on August 01, 2016, 08:27:50 AM
Its nothing close to torture.  I was tied up to a car battery once and questioned for 3 hours and I am a limb lengthening veteran.  Limb lengthening is not nearly as bad.


Maybe you have a high treshhold for pain?. I think you do. Mine is low from inactivity and it sucks
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 01, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
If anyone's on the Exogen 4000 machine, I found out the original battery lasts up to around 150-200 uses. Mine stopped working at around 190 on both Exogen 4000 devices I bought on eBay. But, instead of buying a new one, I found out that you could just easily replace the battery for $40 or so from an online website. Several sites sell it. Just look up Exogen 4000 battery and it should look like 4 AA batteries wrapped together with a connector attached. The device just has two screws behind the sticker in the back. And the battery easily detaches and reattaches. There seems to be no limit on the uses, since I'm already at around 300 uses on one of my devices. You know you're low on batteries when the device turns out but every 2 seconds, the device makes a loud beep followed by a warning ! sign.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: mrmayor on August 15, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
DIFM, how are you doing now?  I've read a lot of your posts and on my way to FL for an attempt at the same.  Tell us all how you're faring. 

Thanks
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on August 27, 2016, 07:18:36 PM
Hey DIFM,how are you?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLuser1 on August 27, 2016, 07:50:33 PM
I would like to know how this guy is doing too..
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 31, 2016, 09:36:23 AM
DIFM, how are you doing now?  I've read a lot of your posts and on my way to FL for an attempt at the same.  Tell us all how you're faring. 

Thanks
I've been living a pretty normal life lately - as in, how it was prior to LL. Some updates: I never really worked out my legs regularly prior to LL, so I was curious as to what would happened if I stopped. So it turns out that if I stop working out my legs, then the pain in my legs return. The same areas hurt again: inner thigh, TFL, glutes. I also noticed that my walking gait stopped looking normal, and I was starting to do the penguin walk again. So... I suspect that for the rest of my life, I'm going to have to work out my legs if I don't want leg pain and a weird gait. I want to know if any LL veterans stopped working out their legs and can still walk normally.

Other than that, things are pretty normal. There were times when I wondered why I did LL, and wondered if I'm regretting it. It usually happens when I start feeling pain in my legs again. But then I look through some of my old videos/pics of myself and notice how short I was. So while I'm not getting the happiness of being tall, I'm not feeling sad for being short again. I just feel normal. When I see the pictures, I cringe at how short I looked back then. And then I'm reminded again about how crappy I felt being short. It wasn't everyday that I felt that way. But it just creeps up on you like a chronic illness. And now I'm cured of that illness, because I don't really think about being short at all anymore. It's a bit easier to shop for clothes for myself now, because I look good in them. Back then I used to have to worry about how tall the outfit would make me look. Now I don't.

I still haven't gotten an x-ray since May. I'm going to get one in October. A part of me is too scared to know whether my bone fully healed or not. If it didn't, I'm going to need to get a bone graft. That's why I've been delaying myself from getting an x-ray. That's my main concern right now, besides getting the rods removed. In the meantime, I've been living a pretty normal life. I can walk and bike 10 miles in a row.

One more thing: I also noticed that it's hard to walk with my legs close together. I don't remember that being an issue prior to LL. Could be because my biomechanics are different now and the angles of my legs are different. Not sure. Can you guys walk with your legs close together - like rubbing your feet together as you're walking? When I do it, the outside of my thighs start hurting.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Antonio on August 31, 2016, 11:51:48 AM
Congrats DIFM. Good luck with the bone healing.

I'm 3.5 months post femoral lengthening and I don't notice any pain in my glutes or thighs while walking. Even with my feet close together.

What I note from the diairies is that the Guichet and Precice patients have pains in the glute and upper thigh regions whereas the Fitbone ones have them in the knee.

I get sharp knee pains after doing squats or stretching. Perhaps it's due to the nail insertion and fixation differences.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on August 31, 2016, 02:32:43 PM
What do you mean by not getting the happiness of being tall?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on August 31, 2016, 03:14:35 PM
What do you mean by not getting the happiness of being tall?

Speaking for myself.  It's more of a content feeling.  There is no euphoric feeling from getting taller, and you quickly adjust to your new height such that the only time you are reminded why you went through with this surgery is when you see how surprisingly short you used to be in past photos.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on August 31, 2016, 04:36:15 PM
Speaking for myself.  It's more of a content feeling.  There is no euphoric feeling from getting taller, and you quickly adjust to your new height such that the only time you are reminded why you went through with this surgery is when you see how surprisingly short you used to be in past photos.
I guess its normal? Just like going from skinny to buff.. Also, I dont think an average height or even tall dude, walks around smiling being average or tall.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on August 31, 2016, 04:39:01 PM
Well, maybe he meant something else.  Like a bittersweet feeling.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jessie Believer on August 31, 2016, 07:39:58 PM
Hey DIFM! You say that you're feeling your hip sway and weak legs coming back when you stop working them out. What kind of exercises so you do and how often? I still suffer from this problems and hopefully with your exercises I can cope them :) thanks ahead
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on August 31, 2016, 07:47:00 PM
Well, maybe he meant something else.  Like a bittersweet feeling.

I still remember the vid when you got to 5'7 at the end of your tibial LL and said you almost cried of not feeling short anymore. That really got my feels hihi. I guess it's better that you adjust quickly to the new you... Being euphoric all the time could only cause harm in the long run
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EndGame on September 01, 2016, 06:52:14 PM
One more thing: I also noticed that it's hard to walk with my legs close together. I don't remember that being an issue prior to LL. Could be because my biomechanics are different now and the angles of my legs are different. Not sure. Can you guys walk with your legs close together - like rubbing your feet together as you're walking? When I do it, the outside of my thighs start hurting.

I'm no expert, still lengthening, but I suspect your ITB could be the issue. Maybe do some Ober stretches or hip stretches and it'll improve. Good luck. Appreciate your diary. Thanks.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: goldenegg on September 01, 2016, 07:49:36 PM
I'm no expert, still lengthening, but I suspect your ITB could be the issue. Maybe do some Ober stretches or hip stretches and it'll improve. Good luck. Appreciate your diary. Thanks.

same- im under the impression that IT band tightness causes wide legs. I can walk with feet close together- no pain but I do feel a stretch on my sides. shouldn't be a biomechanical thing unless the axis of your legs has changed dramatically. can you stand with your feet together? just doing that for a few minutes was a good stretch for me when I was started recovery
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 01, 2016, 08:07:03 PM
What do you mean by not getting the happiness of being tall?
You get used to the new you after a while. For example, I'm used to being rich. I don't wake up every morning cheering that I'm rich. But there was a high when you first get the change. When I first crossed 2" increase, I was pretty happy. When I made my first million dollars, I was pretty happy. It might sound sad that the high doesn't last forever. But it does remove the feelings of sadness. So it's not so much that I'm happy all the time. It's more like I'm never sad now. My short stature was the last source of unhappiness for me. And now I don't really have anything that really upsets me. The Buddhists call it "nirvana" I believe. A release from suffering.

same- im under the impression that IT band tightness causes wide legs. I can walk with feet close together- no pain but I do feel a stretch on my sides. shouldn't be a biomechanical thing unless the axis of your legs has changed dramatically. can you stand with your feet together? just doing that for a few minutes was a good stretch for me when I was started recovery
I can stand with my feet together. Only a mild discomfort occurs when I do. But if I stand with my feet together and then tilt my upper body, my TFL (outside of thigh, near the head of the femur) starts hurting. My guess is that it's related to the fact that I stopped working out my legs and the pain associated with that. I suspect that it's the same muscle weakness pain I felt. The reason is because I had my ITB released and when I do tests with my ITB, it stretches just fine. I think just working out my legs again will remove the pain again. Sucks that I have work out my legs for the rest of my life, though. But at the same time, at least it's a good reminder to never skip leg day.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on September 02, 2016, 02:33:51 PM
great update,thanks.. :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 02, 2016, 08:00:17 PM
Some of my scars are starting to fade into skin color. It's starting from the outside and heading in, so the scar looks like it's getting smaller. Also noticed that hair is starting to grow back where the scars were. The first scars starting to fade are two one closer to the knee. With one of them now maybe 60% faded. The rest don't look like they're fading fast. They're still bumpy and slowly changing color. I'm guessing that given the rate of fading plus that fact that they're going to drill the same holes again when they remove the rods, it'll be 5 years before they stop being darkened.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on September 02, 2016, 08:51:18 PM
The 1 million dollar question is though, given your current physical and mental state post LL, would you still do it if you were able to go back to the day before surgery?

 Or to be even more clear, are the stuff we tell each other and ourselves in the forum are anywhere near the truth? That with added height will come more respect, sociability, attention from women or whatever?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: mrmayor on September 03, 2016, 12:37:36 AM
DIFM (and any other LL veteran) - as i read your diary, it sounded like you spent a lot of time in the pool, often up to 3 hours per day.  What exactly did you do in the pool?  Did you walk upright?  Did you swim strokes?  the reason I ask is I am literally at the Homewood Suite where I believe you stayed and the pool gets shallow...were you able to actually walk to the shallow end without fear of snapping the nail?  I got in it for the first time today and was a little weary.  I weigh 165lb

Thanks for any input

Mayor Mark
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on September 03, 2016, 07:14:47 PM
DIFM (and any other LL veteran) - as i read your diary, it sounded like you spent a lot of time in the pool, often up to 3 hours per day.  What exactly did you do in the pool?  Did you walk upright?  Did you swim strokes?  the reason I ask is I am literally at the Homewood Suite where I believe you stayed and the pool gets shallow...were you able to actually walk to the shallow end without fear of snapping the nail?  I got in it for the first time today and was a little weary.  I weigh 165lb

Thanks for any input

Mayor Mark
I walked forward, backwards, and side-by-side in the pool where the water was about up to my nipples. That's as shallow as I was allowed to go. I think the precice nail is stronger than 75 lb, and that they're just being overly cautious. Don't get so scared about breaking the nail. Worry more about getting flexible and stronger.


The 1 million dollar question is though, given your current physical and mental state post LL, would you still do it if you were able to go back to the day before surgery?

 Or to be even more clear, are the stuff we tell each other and ourselves in the forum are anywhere near the truth? That with added height will come more respect, sociability, attention from women or whatever?
I can't answer the first question until the whole LL thing is finished. If my bone doesn't fully heal and I need a bone graft and the bone graft fails or some other bad stuff happens during rod removal, etc. then yea, I wouldn't have done it if I had the chance. If my legs do heal well and my rod removal is all fine and there's no permanent pain, then yes I'd do it again. I don't care that much about the diminished athletic ability, because my happiness or income doesn't depend on it. But I would probably not do this surgery if I enjoyed sports regularly. Would I do it again if I were 5'9" - such as doing tibias and adding more inches? Not really. If I were around 5'4"-5'6", I would. Crossing over that barrier between short and average height is a pretty good feeling. Being short sucks, as we all know or else we wouldn't be here in the forums. But being average in height isn't so bad. I don't feel any more discrimination or looks of disgust because of my height.

I'd say yes, there's a difference in respect and attention when your height is higher. But I think the most glaring difference is that a girl who used to be taller than you would now be willing to date you as opposed to not if you were shorter than her. That's about the biggest difference. I went back to see some of the girls who used to not like me because of my height, and they still did not like me. So height is not the definitive factor on whether a girl will like you or not. It's more like a part of a checklist and if height was the tipping point that made her not like you, then even if she liked you now now that you're taller, then your relationship is still very fragile. An analogy would be like if height were your physical education grade in school. But that's only one class out of the 10 classes you have to take. When you're short, you have a failing grade in that class. But if you fail in all other classes, then it doesn't matter that much if you get an A in physical education, because your overall grade is still a failure. Let's say that getting into college is like getting respect from girls and peers. So yes, if you're trying to get into college with a sports scholarship, then you'll be rejected immediately because of your physical education grade. They won't even care if all your other grades are A's. But there are also college who don't care about your PE grade, and you could fail that class all you want as long as your other grades are great. And then perhaps there's that rare chance that you barely made the cut off of the college just because your PE grade bumped up from the C to an A. But you're still at the bottom of the class at that college. That means that you'll have a lot of trouble at that college, because you're the worst student there. So my point is, improve yourself in all other areas first if you really want to see a big improvement in yourself. Otherwise you're just pouring a glass of water into a forest fire.

Some girls don't care about your height, too. Which explains why I've never really had a long gap in time when I didn't have a girlfriend. There's plenty of cute girls under 5'5". So don't ever do this surgery for a girl or for anyone's respect for that matter. They're not worth all the pain and money and time loss. Do it for yourself, because you're the only person worth doing this for. If your height is the only thing that's holding you back from loving yourself and losing all this time/money isn't going to affect you that much, then go ahead and do this surgery. That was the situation that I was in when I made this decision to do the surgery.

Seeing over crowds at concerts is also an added bonus.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on September 03, 2016, 07:33:05 PM
Thx alot for the detailed response difm. I appreciate it
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on September 03, 2016, 07:52:43 PM
Loved the insight.

Especially this:
Quote
It's more like a part of a checklist and if height was the tipping point that made her not like you, then even if she liked you now now that you're taller, then your relationship is still very fragile.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 06, 2016, 11:52:05 PM
Loved the insight.

Especially this:

DIFM i re-read your diary and no way am gonna go for 8 when i do this surgery, so i will ask you two questions

1- do you think 7 or 7.5 cm a better choice than 8 cm or its consider a lot too?

2- do you believe Guichet's recovery time is more better?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on October 07, 2016, 01:14:43 AM
Kaiser.  Both guys that did less than 8cm- 6.5cm and 7cm- during my stay in west palm beach took longer to consolidate than the guys who did 8cm.  So it's really a crap shoot. But I do think if you are less than 5 foot 8, 6.5 cm looks better than 8cm.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 07, 2016, 02:07:14 AM
Kaiser.  Both guys that did less than 8cm- 6.5cm and 7cm- during my stay in west palm beach took longer to consolidate than the guys who did 8cm.  So it's really a crap shoot. But I do think if you are less than 5 foot 8, 6.5 cm looks better than 8cm.

i was thinking about 8.5 cm before then 8, but i will try my best to 7 or 7.5 at max if i am unique

1- so you think how many cm you length docent matter in a recovery?
2- does the doctor know if your nerve or muscle stretched in a good way by using x-ray? or after lengthening you can know?
3- hows your condition now? you can walk, play?

wish you the best
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 07, 2016, 02:12:06 AM
If you're a Paley patient right now stuck in Palm Beach, good luck out there! I've been following the hurricane news and it looks pretty bad.

DIFM i re-read your diary and no way am gonna go for 8 when i do this surgery, so i will ask you two questions

1- do you think 7 or 7.5 cm a better choice than 8 cm or its consider a lot too?

2- do you believe Guichet's recovery time is more better?
1. I think 7 to 7.5 cm is a better choice if you want to lessen your chances of screwing up your flexibility and reducing your pain. 7-8 cm was when my legs got really tight and every mm was a getting much much harder to recover from, flexibility-wise. I think if I stopped at 6 cm, I would be more normal and not lose as much of my athleticism. But this is for my starting height. At different starting heights, I don't know.
2. I believe that recovery time comes down to the patient and not the doctor. If you think your doctor isn't good, then just read the other people's diaries and see what they tell them to do. For example, I detailed a lot about what I had to do during lengthening. I don't think my recovery had anything to do with which doctor I took. The fact that my bone is not growing faster probably has nothing to do with which doctor I took or how much calcium I intake. I think my body just doesn't grow a lot of bone on its own (never broke a bone before, so I didn't know). But surgery screw-ups are a real thing and something you should worry about.

Kaiser.  Both guys that did less than 8cm- 6.5cm and 7cm- during my stay in west palm beach took longer to consolidate than the guys who did 8cm.  So it's really a crap shoot. But I do think if you are less than 5 foot 8, 6.5 cm looks better than 8cm.
I agree. Consolidation also depends more on things like calcium/vitamin D intake, exogen (maybe?) and age. An extra cm of consolidation would probably just equal to 2 more weeks of consolidation. Feeling tighter in places is the bigger concern.

i was thinking about 8.5 cm before then 8, but i will try my best to 7 or 7.5 at max if i am unique

1- so you think how many cm you length docent matter in a recovery?
2- does the doctor know if your nerve or muscle stretched in a good way by using x-ray? or after lengthening you can know?
3- hows your condition now? you can walk, play?

wish you the best
1- It matters if you care about flexibility and not having permanent pain. For example, I still have aches in the tighter areas around my legs. I probably wouldn't have if I had done 7 cm instead.
2. They know by your physical therapy measurements, which they take once every 2 weeks and meet up with you to discuss it. X-ray is for knowing if you are lengthening too fast or too slow based on bone growth.
3. I can do everything that a normal person can do except my squatting power is much less. My walking looks a little bit weird, too, still. Just a little according to my friends, but still noticeable.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 07, 2016, 02:47:14 AM
If you're a Paley patient right now stuck in Palm Beach, good luck out there! I've been following the hurricane news and it looks pretty bad.
1. I think 7 to 7.5 cm is a better choice if you want to lessen your chances of screwing up your flexibility and reducing your pain. 7-8 cm was when my legs got really tight and every mm was a getting much much harder to recover from, flexibility-wise. I think if I stopped at 6 cm, I would be more normal and not lose as much of my athleticism. But this is for my starting height. At different starting heights, I don't know.
2. I believe that recovery time comes down to the patient and not the doctor. If you think your doctor isn't good, then just read the other people's diaries and see what they tell them to do. For example, I detailed a lot about what I had to do during lengthening. I don't think my recovery had anything to do with which doctor I took. The fact that my bone is not growing faster probably has nothing to do with which doctor I took or how much calcium I intake. I think my body just doesn't grow a lot of bone on its own (never broke a bone before, so I didn't know). But surgery screw-ups are a real thing and something you should worry about.
I agree. Consolidation also depends more on things like calcium/vitamin D intake, exogen (maybe?) and age. An extra cm of consolidation would probably just equal to 2 more weeks of consolidation. Feeling tighter in places is the bigger concern.
1- It matters if you care about flexibility and not having permanent pain. For example, I still have aches in the tighter areas around my legs. I probably wouldn't have if I had done 7 cm instead.
2. They know by your physical therapy measurements, which they take once every 2 weeks and meet up with you to discuss it. X-ray is for knowing if you are lengthening too fast or too slow based on bone growth.
3. I can do everything that a normal person can do except my squatting power is much less. My walking looks a little bit weird, too, still. Just a little according to my friends, but still noticeable.

woooow more than enough, i quit sports two years ago because i said to my self am gonna do LL in the next couple years why i practice and loose money. so my main question is

1- when can i walk normally not like a zombie ( so no one notice as i will make it secret)

and thanks
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on October 07, 2016, 04:38:06 AM
Hey difm,when will you remove nails?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 07, 2016, 06:52:26 AM
Hey difm,when will you remove nails?
No idea. Getting an xray later this month to find out if I need a bone graft to fill in the bone gaps in my femurs. If it's all healed up, then I should be ready to take out the rods early next year I guess. But I'm probably going to be on the safe side and wait until next Summer (so 2-years post-op), because of what happened to programdude.

woooow more than enough, i quit sports two years ago because i said to my self am gonna do LL in the next couple years why i practice and loose money. so my main question is

1- when can i walk normally not like a zombie ( so no one notice as i will make it secret)

and thanks
No idea. I making progress normally. I'm probably not a good example of quick progress with walking. I barely walk much each day, since I'm a computer programmer and sit most of the time. I'm sure that if I walked more often each day, I'd get my normal walk back sooner. I've only been recently been walking more often. I blame the pain in the tight muscles for making me not want to walk so much.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 07, 2016, 03:46:17 PM
No idea. Getting an xray later this month to find out if I need a bone graft to fill in the bone gaps in my femurs. If it's all healed up, then I should be ready to take out the rods early next year I guess. But I'm probably going to be on the safe side and wait until next Summer (so 2-years post-op), because of what happened to programdude.
No idea. I making progress normally. I'm probably not a good example of quick progress with walking. I barely walk much each day, since I'm a computer programmer and sit most of the time. I'm sure that if I walked more often each day, I'd get my normal walk back sooner. I've only been recently been walking more often. I blame the pain in the tight muscles for making me not want to walk so much.

don't worry am sure its a couple months matter to walk normally like before, don't think about sport at the moment.

1- you're now 8 months post-op?
2- what happened to programdude? i knew he had a longer recovery but nothing more serious
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: drvbmc on October 11, 2016, 06:39:33 AM
DIFM, thanks so much for your insight into all of this.

Looking for a straight up opinion. I am a 40 yr old guy who has lived a life riddled with height neurosis. I am 5'5", and very successful. My flexibility is not as good as yours but is better than average. Also, I don't want to consider this surgery for a couple of years, and will have time to work on my body further as I get closer.

Also, I am set on doing 6 cm - NO MORE.

From your experience of who you have met and learned about on the forum - should I consider this or just get it out of my head now, and move on with life??

Your opinion is much appreciated.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 14, 2016, 05:35:08 AM
don't worry am sure its a couple months matter to walk normally like before, don't think about sport at the moment.

1- you're now 8 months post-op?
2- what happened to programdude? i knew he had a longer recovery but nothing more serious
1- 15 months post op
2- He took his rods out 1 year post-op, and then he snapped his femur and had to get another rod put in.

DIFM, thanks so much for your insight into all of this.

Looking for a straight up opinion. I am a 40 yr old guy who has lived a life riddled with height neurosis. I am 5'5", and very successful. My flexibility is not as good as yours but is better than average. Also, I don't want to consider this surgery for a couple of years, and will have time to work on my body further as I get closer.

Also, I am set on doing 6 cm - NO MORE.

From your experience of who you have met and learned about on the forum - should I consider this or just get it out of my head now, and move on with life??

Your opinion is much appreciated.
I mean, if you can get your height neurosis out of your head and move on, then you don't need this surgery. If you're not capable of that, then you could also seek professional help. If that doesn't work, then there's 3 things to consider for this surgery:
1) Cost
2) Health
3) Time loss

I've already outlined all those in my diary. Basically it's 1) around $100,000 (maybe less if you go with a cheaper doctor, maybe more if you have complications). 2) loss of flexibility and muscles and athleticism. 3) 6-12 months of your life spent being fully/partially handicap. If all that sacrifice is acceptable to you, then there's only two other things to ask you.

1) Are you doing this for yourself or for someone else. If you are doing this for yourself, then okay. If not, then please consider not doing it for the other person. He or she is not worth it.
2) Have you tried wearing 6 cm shoe lifts before? If not, try it out for a while. See if 6 cm makes a difference in your life. If it does, and you go, "Yes, I wish this is permanent and am willing to sacrifice the money, time and health to get it." then I guess this surgery is the answer you seek.

That's the journey I took before I made my decision to do the surgery. And now my height neurosis is gone. I'm not sure that it'll be gone at 5'7", though, honestly. 5'7" still isn't very tall (no offense). That's why you should try the 6 cm shoe lifts first. See if it's really what you think it's like. Sometimes the grass looks greener on the other side until you actually get there. So give 5'7" a trial run first. Might as well get your friends used to your new height anyway.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 14, 2016, 10:01:42 AM
1- 15 months post op
2- He took his rods out 1 year post-op, and then he snapped his femur and had to get another rod put in.
I mean, if you can get your height neurosis out of your head and move on, then you don't need this surgery. If you're not capable of that, then you could also seek professional help. If that doesn't work, then there's 3 things to consider for this surgery:
1) Cost
2) Health
3) Time loss

I've already outlined all those in my diary. Basically it's 1) around $100,000 (maybe less if you go with a cheaper doctor, maybe more if you have complications). 2) loss of flexibility and muscles and athleticism. 3) 6-12 months of your life spent being fully/partially handicap. If all that sacrifice is acceptable to you, then there's only two other things to ask you.

1) Are you doing this for yourself or for someone else. If you are doing this for yourself, then okay. If not, then please consider not doing it for the other person. He or she is not worth it.
2) Have you tried wearing 6 cm shoe lifts before? If not, try it out for a while. See if 6 cm makes a difference in your life. If it does, and you go, "Yes, I wish this is permanent and am willing to sacrifice the money, time and health to get it." then I guess this surgery is the answer you seek.

That's the journey I took before I made my decision to do the surgery. And now my height neurosis is gone. I'm not sure that it'll be gone at 5'7", though, honestly. 5'7" still isn't very tall (no offense). That's why you should try the 6 cm shoe lifts first. See if it's really what you think it's like. Sometimes the grass looks greener on the other side until you actually get there. So give 5'7" a trial run first. Might as well get your friends used to your new height anyway.

wtf!! Programdude removed his rod how come he snapped his femur and should do another Precice!! why did his bone fused 100%
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: drvbmc on October 14, 2016, 04:16:54 PM
Thanks for your response. I appreciate thinking this through with others, who have been in the same boat, because frankly, I do not have many people in my life who share my experience.

1. I am certainly not doing this for anybody but myself. Other than some occasional callous comments from idiots, and some girls who said they would not date a shorter guy, this issue is in my head only.

2. I have used 6 cm shoe lifts (Bugarri makes very good 2-3" shoes), and I feel much better when I wear them.

3. I realize that 5'7" is not tall, but I am not expecting to be tall in my life. I am however of the mindset that 5'7" is a noticeable step up from 5'5", especially when comparing my height to girls in society.

Having said all of that, I am very athletic. I play competitive hockey, and am a single digit handicap golfer. I am NOT willing to sacrifice my athletic ability over this.
From your experience, do you think that a 6 cm surgery will limit my ability to play sports, say a year after it?

Also, is the healing not shorter for 6 vs 8 cm, making walking more realistic in 4-6 months?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on October 14, 2016, 04:27:17 PM
If you are really playing competitive then forget it.
It's not even going back to your full self but 1 year after initial surgery? No chance.

6cm vs 8cm has an impact on your recovery rate, healing time and amount of reduced athletic ability.

You have pretty clear mindset, if you really think that it will help you and it's holding you back then it's absolutly alright. Just remember that this surgery makes you taller but it won't solve your issues by itself.

I feel you, 5'5 and living in a tall european country. Unfortunately i needed to give up on playing basketball after nasty incident with my leg.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 14, 2016, 08:28:11 PM
Thanks for your response. I appreciate thinking this through with others, who have been in the same boat, because frankly, I do not have many people in my life who share my experience.

1. I am certainly not doing this for anybody but myself. Other than some occasional callous comments from idiots, and some girls who said they would not date a shorter guy, this issue is in my head only.

2. I have used 6 cm shoe lifts (Bugarri makes very good 2-3" shoes), and I feel much better when I wear them.

3. I realize that 5'7" is not tall, but I am not expecting to be tall in my life. I am however of the mindset that 5'7" is a noticeable step up from 5'5", especially when comparing my height to girls in society.

Having said all of that, I am very athletic. I play competitive hockey, and am a single digit handicap golfer. I am NOT willing to sacrifice my athletic ability over this.
From your experience, do you think that a 6 cm surgery will limit my ability to play sports, say a year after it?

Also, is the healing not shorter for 6 vs 8 cm, making walking more realistic in 4-6 months?

a year, two and three. its will diminish your athletic ability, maybe later you can play it for fun, but make a career from it no way. the theory say the new bone should be same or stronger but i don't know why people strugle
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on October 15, 2016, 08:12:17 AM
a year, two and three. its will diminish your athletic ability, maybe later you can play it for fun, but make a career from it no way. the theory say the new bone should be same or stronger but i don't know why people strugle
They struggle not because of the bone. The bone will be thicker in that area after LL. The problem is that your muscles are stretched out. When it's stretched out, it's weaker. Also add the fact that you won't use your muscles for a few months. That makes you much weaker, too. Sometimes people never recover from muscle atrophy. My legs are definitely much weaker than before. I struggle just to get up from a squat. The rest of my body is as strong or stronger than before, though. Just the thigh/butt area is weak as hell. I might recover because I'm not competitive. But if someone were in competitive sports... you can forget about it.

If you go with 6 cm instead of 8 cm, you can probably start walking in 4-6 months. That's a very realistic goal. Will you be normal in 4-6 months? No. Your walking will look weird still. And your butt will be non-existent. And your muscles will be so weak that you can't even get up from a squat.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 15, 2016, 06:53:16 PM
They struggle not because of the bone. The bone will be thicker in that area after LL. The problem is that your muscles are stretched out. When it's stretched out, it's weaker. Also add the fact that you won't use your muscles for a few months. That makes you much weaker, too. Sometimes people never recover from muscle atrophy. My legs are definitely much weaker than before. I struggle just to get up from a squat. The rest of my body is as strong or stronger than before, though. Just the thigh/butt area is weak as hell. I might recover because I'm not competitive. But if someone were in competitive sports... you can forget about it.

If you go with 6 cm instead of 8 cm, you can probably start walking in 4-6 months. That's a very realistic goal. Will you be normal in 4-6 months? No. Your walking will look weird still. And your butt will be non-existent. And your muscles will be so weak that you can't even get up from a squat.

There are a lot walked normally in 6 months, especially with Guichet
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: drvbmc on October 18, 2016, 12:32:20 AM
My challenge is trying to understand what is a single person's experience vs what is the likely outcome.

I find it disappointing that Paley significantly understates the extent of this procedure, and is apparently telling people that the chance of 100% recover is nearly 100% (from what I have read). I am certainly getting a different picture from many others.

In my mind, if there is even a 15-20% chance of permanent reduction in ability, I do not think this procedure is worth the risk. I would rather live pain free with full function than a couple inches taller and in constant pain.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 18, 2016, 12:35:55 AM
My challenge is trying to understand what is a single person's experience vs what is the likely outcome.

I find it disappointing that Paley significantly understates the extent of this procedure, and is apparently telling people that the chance of 100% recover is nearly 100% (from what I have read). I am certainly getting a different picture from many others.

In my mind, if there is even a 15-20% chance of permanent reduction in ability, I do not think this procedure is worth the risk. I would rather live pain free with full function than a couple inches taller and in constant pain.

your strength will reduce for sure, you will be 80-90% fully recoverd at best
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on October 18, 2016, 12:49:41 AM
My challenge is trying to understand what is a single person's experience vs what is the likely outcome.

I find it disappointing that Paley significantly understates the extent of this procedure, and is apparently telling people that the chance of 100% recover is nearly 100% (from what I have read). I am certainly getting a different picture from many others.

In my mind, if there is even a 15-20% chance of permanent reduction in ability, I do not think this procedure is worth the risk. I would rather live pain free with full function than a couple inches taller and in constant pain.

 If that's the case, this surgery isnt for you. If you arent willing to sacrifice your athletisism to an extent, you have nothing to search with this kind of surgery as your athletic ability will be diminished afterwards
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EliminateError on October 18, 2016, 11:03:07 AM

In my mind, if there is even a 15-20% chance of permanent reduction in ability, I do not think this procedure is worth the risk. I would rather live pain free with full function than a couple inches taller and in constant pain.

You are right reduction in 20% ability coupled with pain for life might not be worth it. However, the way I look at it is if you grow taller and you become bigger than your former self, then the reduced ability could be explained by the fact that bigger guys are less agile than smaller guys. Also in boxing smaller guys have quicker reflexes and move faster than bigger guys. Thats just my take on it without any scientific thought behind it. Obviously people who have done the surgery are more well equipped to answer this.

However, I would be very interested in knowing about people who have only done 4-5cm max with internal femurs and their athletic ability and pain levels say 5 years after the operation.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: The Kaiser on October 18, 2016, 11:15:56 AM
You are right reduction in 20% ability coupled with pain for life might not be worth it. However, the way I look at it is if you grow taller and you become bigger than your former self, then the reduced ability could be explained by the fact that bigger guys are less agile than smaller guys. Also in boxing smaller guys have quicker reflexes and move faster than bigger guys. Thats just my take on it without any scientific thought behind it. Obviously people who have done the surgery are more well equipped to answer this.

However, I would be very interested in knowing about people who have only done 4-5cm max with internal femurs and their athletic ability and pain levels say 5 years after the operation.

when you become taller by operation, you will not get bigger, your gene remain same. accept the lose of athletic ability and do it, or continue your career if you have one. sometimes its will be sad, imagine someone stole your wallet and you walk normally and slow to catch him
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on October 18, 2016, 11:18:32 AM
You are right reduction in 20% ability coupled with pain for life might not be worth it. However, the way I look at it is if you grow taller and you become bigger than your former self, then the reduced ability could be explained by the fact that bigger guys are less agile than smaller guys. Also in boxing smaller guys have quicker reflexes and move faster than bigger guys. Thats just my take on it without any scientific thought behind it. Obviously people who have done the surgery are more well equipped to answer this.

However, I would be very interested in knowing about people who have only done 4-5cm max with internal femurs and their athletic ability and pain levels say 5 years after the operation.

You lose athletic abilities because you stretch your soft tissue(muscles etc.)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EliminateError on October 18, 2016, 11:42:16 AM
when you become taller by operation, you will not get bigger, your gene remain same. accept the lose of athletic ability and do it, or continue your career if you have one. sometimes its will be sad, imagine someone stole your wallet and you walk normally and slow to catch him

Thanks for your response. I do have a career which requires me to sit all day long. I just thought if I achieve my goal of 4cm internal femurs it won't compromise my athletic abilities that much. But I havent seen enough cases who did 4cm on this website, I guess it might not be worth it for many llers.

You lose athletic abilities because you stretch your soft tissue(muscles etc.) [/quote]

If you stretch soft tissues etc then even 1cm will have an affect on athletic ability for sure.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: drvbmc on October 19, 2016, 12:38:06 AM
In the end, we can all agree that there is risk associated with this procedure.

The one problem I think people make is desiring longer lengths than their bodies can handle. I can certainly see why people would 'stretch' for more, but therein lies the risk/reward.

The question I would like to explore is:

What is the # of cm an average healthy male can lengthen his femurs and then achieve 80-90% mobility AND be pain free within 2 years after the procedure.

I realize this is not admissible medical evidence, but opinions are all we have at this point, since we can not always trust the surgeons opinion.

Post a number from 0-10 cm. 

My initial thought leans to 4 cm.

ps. Do not take into account - 'is it worth it?'
I am only exploring what we think the body can handle.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on October 19, 2016, 12:42:50 AM
In the end, we can all agree that there is risk associated with this procedure.

The one problem I think people make is desiring longer lengths than their bodies can handle. I can certainly see why people would 'stretch' for more, but therein lies the risk/reward.

The question I would like to explore is:

What is the # of cm an average healthy male can lengthen his femurs and then achieve 80-90% mobility AND be pain free within 2 years after the procedure.

I realize this is not admissible medical evidence, but opinions are all we have at this point, since we can not always trust the surgeons opinion.

Post a number from 0-10 cm. 

My initial thought leans to 4 cm.

ps. Do not take into account - 'is it worth it?'
I am only exploring what we think the body can handle.

 Maybe open another thread about this? It's DIFM diary...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: drvbmc on October 19, 2016, 12:55:44 AM
Sorry. No disrespect intended.

Will start a separate post.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on December 27, 2016, 12:21:30 PM
Hey man,how are you?How is life with your new height ? :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 04, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Hey man,how are you?How is life with your new height ? :)
I've been enjoying life, man. I realize why a lot of LL veterans don't return here after they're done with the LL. They don't want to be reminded of their surgery and the torment they went through. They've moved on with their lives.

I am one of those people now. I don't think about my height anymore. I used to think that I'd be better off if I were just a little bit taller at 5'10" or 5'11". But nowadays I simply don't care. Why? Because I'm too busy enjoying my life.

I remember that I kept getting asked this question a lot: Do you have regrets about the surgery or was the surgery worth it or if you could turn back time would you do it again? My answer was always wavering, because it depended on whether I had any permanent issues such as weird walking or permanent pain/tightness. I feel that I am ready to give an answer now.

Let me start by giving an update on my life since my last update. According to my latest x-ray, my bones still haven't healed fully yet. Bad news. The gap between the two pieces of my femur show little to no signs of growth. Of the little growth I see, I estimate that it'd take maybe 3 or more years before the gap closes. The good news is that the pain has subsided enough that I don't remember that I had LL - when before it used to hurt just by even sitting still. Now I only feel the pain once in a while when I angle my legs in a weird way or if I take a heavy side step or trip. But a majority of the time, my legs just feel normal again.

The other thing that happened, if you followed my diary, was my long-term gf broke up with me after I did the surgery. I always suspected that it was because I had the surgery. Well, a few weeks ago, I finally met up with her again, and she confirmed me that yes, the surgery was one of the major reasons why she broke up with me. She liked me when I was shorter and actually doesn't like my new height. She says I look disproportional. She says that I walk funny still. It's weird that she said that because I thought I was walking normally now. But after I watched a recorded video of myself, I can confirm that even today, I still walk funny. I can't even consciously correct it, because in my mind, I am walking normally. But when I watch the video, I can see that it looks weird. I concluded that it's because my femur-to-tibia ratio is screwed up, so the movement of my legs looks weird now. I looks like I'm dragging the lower part of my legs now, as if they were extra heavy.

After she said all that, I wanted to come on this forum and say that I regret doing the surgery. This was a girl who I planned to live the rest of my life with, and this surgery tore us apart. And now that I look deformed, I wondered if any girl would want to date me.

But then I realized that I was doing it again. I was trading one neurosis with another. I could have focused on how weird I walked and how disproportionate my legs look now. And I had every reason to because a girl who used to love me is rejecting me now for those things. But I didn't.

I just stopped caring. I'm not going to spend the time and energy focusing on these superficial things about myself anymore. I instead am focusing on doing the things I love doing, and I'm living a pretty happy life right now. And I would have been happy even without the surgery. I know because I remember that I felt this way a few years ago when I was still short. And I hope that you guys can reach that point, too. And if you think you can only reach that point if you had a girlfriend, and if you think you can only get a girlfriend if you're taller, then you're wrong. I am single now and have been ever since the surgery. It's strange because when I was short, I was almost never single. I always had a fear of being alone and not being wanted when I was short. But now that I'm taller, I don't have those insecurities anymore. And without those insecurities, I realized that I don't even need a gf anymore to be happy. And I'm not even saying it like I'm in some kind of denial. I've just reached that point in my life where I truly don't care what people think of me, and that I'm going to live the life that I always dreamed of living. I don't need validation from anyone.

So no, I don't regret the surgery. But at the same time, I don't think the surgery was necessary to be happy with myself. Some people think that their life will be happy if only they got this surgery and if only they were taller. But they're wrong to think that way. Don't delay your happiness. Because, let me tell you, once you get taller, there's going to be something else in your life that you don't like about yourself. It's just going to keep on going and going. You'll never be satisfied, until you start focusing on the positives in your life. You'll be happier for it if you do.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: crimsontide on February 04, 2017, 03:26:36 PM
I doubt you look deformed.   It will take a while to  get your gait  back to normal.  3 years is a very long time to have union. I think if you wanna get back to normal  faster,  there are braces  that will greatly help. I think I'm around  70% now, and there's this advanced brace that will likely make me  90 to 95% again, maybe even run. The brace  is very form fitting as well, so will not be noticeable under your jeans/pants. It's ridiculous that we have to  get devices to make our  walking as before, but we have to do what we  have to do.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 04, 2017, 03:43:43 PM
I doubt you look deformed.   It will take a while to  get your gait  back to normal.  3 years is a very long time to have union. I think if you wanna get back to normal  faster,  there are braces  that will greatly help. I think I'm around  70% now, and there's this advanced brace that will likely make me  90 to 95% again, maybe even run. The brace  is very form fitting as well, so will not be noticeable under your jeans/pants. It's ridiculous that we have to  get devices to make our  walking as before, but we have to do what we  have to do.
No, I do looked deformed. When I looked at the video of myself, it looks very odd that my knees are bending well below where it should be bending on a normally proportioned leg. And my gait doesn't look like it has improved at all in the past year.

I don't need the brace, because I don't care if my gait looks weird. It's a part of who I am now, and I'm tired of conforming to what society has led me to believe is "ideal" or "normal". I don't care anymore if I'm not what people expect or hoped for. This year is the year that I finally accepted myself for who I am, and now I don't want to change a thing. If I get my normal gait back or not is irrelevant to me right now. I've let go of trying to be "perfect". I wanted to start living my life as if I were already perfect and happy. And that's exactly what I started doing. And that's why you haven't heard from me in a while. I'm no longer thinking things like, "I'll be happy when this or that happens to me or when I become this or that." No. No more "I'll be happy when..." I'm just happy. End of story.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 04, 2017, 04:24:30 PM
So in the end you regret for doing it? You think you could have reach your happines without the surgery?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Penguinn on February 04, 2017, 05:17:38 PM
Are you sure you're/she's not amplifying the disproportion? As someone who did 3" on femurs at a lower starting height than you, it's honestly not that bad. Only time I notice the long femurs is when I'm sitting and leaning back instead of sitting up straight. I haven't begun to walk unaided yet but I'm sure wearing shoes will improve the femur:tibia ratio too.

Anyway, I'm glad you're at peace, man. Enjoy your life.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 04, 2017, 05:48:34 PM
So in the end you regret for doing it? You think you could have reach your happines without the surgery?
No, I don't regret it, because I don't know if I could have come to this realization if I didn't do the surgery. I might forever be stuck in that "what if I were taller?" mindset and be forever curious. But now that I filled that curiosity and did it, I can say conclusively that the surgery wasn't necessary.

It's not that I think I could reach my happiness without the surgery. I know I could. I actually had that happiness prior to the surgery, and I even spoke about it in my diary before. I knew about this surgery like 5 years ago or so. After many months of considering it, I concluded that the surgery was stupid, and ignored it for a few years. I put all that height stuff behind me. And for a good 2-3 years, I didn't think about my height, and I was happy with what I had - cute and loving gf, good job, nice house, and etc. But it was because I was such a damn perfectionist that I wanted more. And that's when I came back to these forums and other "short height" forums and read about how being short is bad and how heightism is rampant. And that's when I convinced myself that maybe I'm flawed too and I should fix it. But I wish I could go back in time and hug my younger self and tell him that he's good just the way he is even if he doesn't fit the mold of the "ideal" male body. And that's why I'm actually back here talking to you guys. It's that I wish I could give you guys a hug and tell you to not do the surgery.

The thing is that my gf at the time actually did do that. And I ignored her. I let other short guys get to me and destroy my self-esteem by hearing their stories of rejections and disadvantages and lack of respect. Don't listen to that crap. Listen to the under-5'6" doingitforme who was happy and had it all prior to the surgery. You can be like him. Yes, heightism is real, and it's something that won't go away. But that doesn't mean that you have to be angered by it. You are letting the heightists win if you let them get under your skin. And they especially win if you end up paying $100,000 and 6 months of your life to "fix" your height. For what? Just to please some dckheads who were rude and made fun of your height? Just so that heightist/superficial girl would date you? Screw that.

Of course, you probably won't listen, though. After all, this is a LL forum. But, another LL veteran (oldiebutgoldie) convinced me 4 years ago to forget the surgery, and I did. I just wish 2 years ago I had the conviction to stay convinced and not let those heightists get under my skin again. The only problem then was that I became the heightist. I had convinced myself that being short is bad and that 5'10" is the ideal "most attractive" height. I screwed up. I became my own bully. Don't become like me. Get away from this forum and run far far away. Stop reading articles about heightism. Stop listening to sob stories from other short men. Instead, listen to the short men who are happy with their lives. Don't feed that demon that is telling you that people don't like you because you're short. Don't become your own bully. Be happy with your life. You can do it without this surgery. Good luck.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 04, 2017, 06:01:39 PM
I greatly appreciate the honesty man. Really do. On top of that I do find myself happiest when I'm far away from the forums at that. ("Heightism" just doesn't really affect me).

So I have to ask 2 questions now after all of this.

One is kinda for old times sake (if you know me well that is). But, in light of who it came from, if you feel it's in bad taste feel free to ignore: that comment about disproportionation, was that just about femur to tibia, or also applies to leg to torso? Would it have been noticeable if it the increase was perfectly balanced on both segments?

Lastly, what now man? What's your plan and when should we expect another update? From what I can tell you definitely want to start moving on.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: willsa on February 04, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
Thank you very much for your honest feedback. I can imagine how hard it was to write some of that, but it is seriously appreciated.

I have faith that you will improve your gait as time goes on. I'm sure it isn't nearly as bad as you think, we all tend to overemphasize our own insecurities.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
Don't sweat the girl man. I feel like you've let her get in your head, and you're clinging to the best memories of her. If one of the major reasons she broke up with you was LL, she was going to break up with you anyway. She should've supported you the whole way, because it's what you needed to be "happy."

Honestly, she sounds pretty selfish and like an absolute ***** for her to tell you you now look disproportionate. This is going to sound kind of, rude, but honestly I feel like she probably thought she had you locked down as a 5'5 rich dude's best option.

It sounds to me like you were happier before surgery though, because you felt like you had "everything" or whatever. Alright bro, but what happens when that girl eventually breaks up with you (or divorces you) and you're still 5'5 and it takes months for you to get a rebound girl. It's impossible to get a one night stand at 5'5, and it could take months to secure a girlfriend. Having to play the happy dance, prove yourself, etc.. Meanwhile a 5'9-5'10 dude can go on Tinder and make a profile like a regular fking person and get a few matches. (But it may be different for you cause you're rich).

You'll find your happiness again. You'll get a new girl. One that's significantly taller than her, so your kids won't eventually have to go through this BS too (that's if you plan on having kids lol).

If you really want your bones to heal, this may be a stupid suggestion (as I'm sure you're doing this), but start taking Vitamin K2, lots of Calcium, HGH, etc...

I know a girl who was temporarily paralyzed playing soccer when she was 12 and she walked really funny for like all of middle school, but then sophomore year of high school I couldn't even recognize her because she was walking normally. I know you can improve your gait.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 07:26:39 PM
Also, what happens if you lose the money, and the house? What if the money stops coming in (or a lot less of it starts coming in). This is what happened to my dad. He was 5'5. He was a nice bald man, but my mom just said she never found him attractive in *that* way and only married him cause he was young. As soon as the 2008 financial crisis hit, and the money started slowing down, she left him, and she's had no problem dating plenty of much younger, taller attractive dudes. But my dad? He's been single and lonely this whole time. He's never really recovered financially, or emotionally, and whenever he gets drunk he still talks about her.

I think you've seriously forgotten what a disadvantage you have at life at 5'5. The odd stares when you walk into a nice restaurant, the weird treatment at the airport, the fact that with any given girl you want to approach or get with, you have like a 10% chance of her not dismissing you entirely cause of your height. And even then, not having to make up for your lack of height with being rich, or really anything else. Now girls can just just like you for you.

Don't forget all that man. You're free from all that now. You can live a "normal" life.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 04, 2017, 07:42:32 PM
Don't sweat the girl man. I feel like you've let her get in your head, and you're clinging to the best memories of her. If one of the major reasons she broke up with you was LL, she was going to break up with you anyway. She should've supported you the whole way, because it's what you needed to be "happy."

Honestly, she sounds pretty selfish and like an absolute ***** for her to tell you you now look disproportionate. This is going to sound kind of, rude, but honestly I feel like she probably thought she had you locked down as a 5'5 rich dude's best option.

It sounds to me like you were happier before surgery though, because you felt like you had "everything" or whatever. Alright bro, but what happens when that girl eventually breaks up with you (or divorces you) and you're still 5'5 and it takes months for you to get a rebound girl. It's impossible to get a one night stand at 5'5, and it could take months to secure a girlfriend. Having to play the happy dance, prove yourself, etc.. Meanwhile a 5'9-5'10 dude can go on Tinder and make a profile like a regular fking person and get a few matches. (But it may be different for you cause you're rich).

You'll find your happiness again. You'll get a new girl. One that's significantly taller than her, so your kids won't eventually have to go through this BS too (that's if you plan on having kids lol).

You really really really really missed the point didn't you...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 07:49:09 PM
You really really really really missed the point didn't you...

No. The dude just came into LL with bad timing and a non-supportive girl. That's why he feels this weird way now. He says he's okay being single but obviously that's not true, he's trying to cope into this weird "strong" personality that he doesn't care about anything and he's just going to be happy. But obviously he still misses that girl a lot and regrets the surgery because he thinks it's what made him lose her. And the fact that he hasn't dated since having the surgery only multiplies this feeling tenfold.

He could've just as easily gotten LL, met the love of his life (taller than 5'5), and also randomly made ten billion more dollars and he'd be in a much happier place now. He'd be signing autographs, going on TV, recommending LL to the whole wide world, every man, woman, and child. But I truly feel like losing his girl along the way really, really messed with him.

Quote
Just so that heightist/superficial girl would date you? Screw that.

Just LOL. Dude, why are you still trying to be so nice? I can tell you're an awkward, nice guy by the way you write. You've made your goals. You are accomplished. It's time to go on savage time.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: IwannaBeTaller on February 04, 2017, 07:57:07 PM
I just stopped caring. I'm not going to spend the time and energy focusing on these superficial things about myself anymore. I instead am focusing on doing the things I love doing, and I'm living a pretty happy life right now. And I would have been happy even without the surgery. I know because I remember that I felt this way a few years ago when I was still short. And I hope that you guys can reach that point, too. And if you think you can only reach that point if you had a girlfriend, and if you think you can only get a girlfriend if you're taller, then you're wrong. I am single now and have been ever since the surgery. It's strange because when I was short, I was almost never single. I always had a fear of being alone and not being wanted when I was short. But now that I'm taller, I don't have those insecurities anymore. And without those insecurities, I realized that I don't even need a gf anymore to be happy. And I'm not even saying it like I'm in some kind of denial. I've just reached that point in my life where I truly don't care what people think of me, and that I'm going to live the life that I always dreamed of living. I don't need validation from anyone.

That's a very wise realization to have, especially if someone doesn't only say it but actually believes it (which I truly believe you do). And if you've come to that realization only after the surgery, so be it. Life has its strange ways.

However, I'm still very doubtful I can be completely happy without getting taller. No matter how often I think that so many short men succeed in life and absolutely "own their height", I don't want to have the same fate. It's just that my dad is about 6 cm taller and I have this incredibly tenacious suspicion that I might have stunted my growth during my teen years, and thus never reached his height. The complications from this surgery - pain, muscle weakness, irritations -they are annoying and they suck. But height, that is something very different. It is something that through an abstract societal mechanism defines your very worth and status as a male human being. Something that is in some way intrinsically bound to you as a person. Pain and discomfort are not. That's why I sometimes think that no matter what I will need this surgery.

All the best to you.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 08:05:43 PM
That's a very wise realization to have, especially if someone doesn't only say it but actually believes it (which I truly believe you do). And if you've come to that realization only after the surgery, so be it. Life has its strange ways.

However, I'm still very doubtful I can be completely happy without getting taller. No matter how often I think that so many short men succeed in life and absolutely "own their height", I don't want to have the same fate. It's just that my dad is about 6 cm taller and I have this incredibly tenacious suspicion that I might have stunted my growth during my teen years, and thus never reached his height. The complications from this surgery - pain, muscle weakness, irritations -they are annoying and they suck. But height, that is something very different. It is something that through an abstract societal mechanism defines your very worth and status as a male human being. Something that is in some way intrinsically bound to you as a person. Pain and discomfort are not. That's why I sometimes think that no matter what I will need this surgery.

All the best to you.

This. We can all sit back, hit a bong, and talk about how nice we feel and say we don't need any validation. But eventually that high wears off. And the moment you step outside, all those nice feelings disappear again. The moment a girl who's showing some interest in you says, "sorry, you're just too short." all those nice copes disappear again. Humans are social creatures, the desire to feel validated and belong to a group ("being a man", "being a man desired by women") is primitively encoded into our DNA.

DIFM, I know you say you're okay being single or whatever, but please, I really, really suggest you start dating again. You need to get over your ex. You will always subconsciously have a link with LL being bad because you miss your ex, until you get over her, you will feel like you made the wrong choice.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 04, 2017, 08:13:31 PM
I actually agree with captainamerica 100%.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Bigpoppapump on February 04, 2017, 08:50:35 PM
Athletic ability is like st because you lose rom in your ankles with tibia and with femurs hips and knees can become tight. The muscle stretching loss is likely only in extreme amounts.

It also varies depending on the athletic abilities you are talking about, competitive sports you won't be as good as you were at and possible stuff like running for endurance. Weight training provided you stay in the smaller lengths it will be minimal.

I'd hazard a guess regardless that 95% of the guys on here are not good athletes anyway and certainly not top level one at that. Provided you can stay fit and build a bit of muscle afterwards you are good to go.  Look around gyms and see how many people have good bodies, the folk doing cardio are either skinny or fat and making zero progress and the weights area is full of fat guys under the delusion they are all pure muscle

As for your girlfriend making that comment about your proportions and walking I'm certain that if she had met you after your operation she wouldn't notice a thing! It's just her mind playing tricks on her because she knows you did it. Get over her and forget her and don't put her up on a pedestal, trust me she's not as great as you think she is that's just stuff us guys think in our heads
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 04, 2017, 09:11:50 PM
This. We can all sit back, hit a bong, and talk about how nice we feel and say we don't need any validation. But eventually that high wears off. And the moment you step outside, all those nice feelings disappear again. The moment a girl who's showing some interest in you says, "sorry, you're just too short." all those nice copes disappear again. Humans are social creatures, the desire to feel validated and belong to a group ("being a man", "being a man desired by women") is primitively encoded into our DNA.

DIFM, I know you say you're okay being single or whatever, but please, I really, really suggest you start dating again. You need to get over your ex. You will always subconsciously have a link with LL being bad because you miss your ex, until you get over her, you will feel like you made the wrong choice.
I see the misunderstanding here. When I say I'm single, it doesn't mean that I'm lonely and no girl is dating me. It means that I'm seeing several girls at once, and I haven't entered an exclusive relationship to any of them yet. I'm still playing the field because being a 5'9" young millionaire means that I get a new date request every few hours. And yes, a few of them are taller than my previous height, so I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have dated me at 5'6". I'm sorry if that statement feeds anyone's height neurosis and inner bully. This is why I didn't want to mention it in my previous posts, and just left it at "I'm single".

So, I am very much over my ex. We broke up 2 years ago! I only mentioned her because I was curious if she broke up with me because of the surgery, and she confirmed it recently. I was only telling that story as a cautionary tale that the surgery might backfire (weird gait/disproportions with tibs/femur), and not because I miss her or regret the surgery.

Of course, everyone needs a little validation every now and then. But I'm saying that I don't think I need my height to feel validated. I am validated for my many many other accomplishments. So I'm saying that this surgery wasn't necessary. Yes, it sucks to be rejected for your height. I've been there. We've all been there. But you gotta learn to take rejection and not let it affect you. Just remind yourself that everyone has a type that they like, and just because you're not HER type, doesn't mean that you're a bad date. So don't beat yourself up if you are short. Now that I've been on both sides, short and normal height, I can say definitively that my happiness level remains unchanged from pre-surgery to post-surgery.

It's interesting that you say that the "high" wears off, because that's exactly what happened with my height "high". It was amazing at first to be taller, but that slowly became the norm, and that "high" is gone. If I craved more validation for my looks, I'd do my tibs and become 5'11" and fix my proportions. But I don't. I'm happy with who I am, and all I'm saying is that I hope you guys get to that place, too. I will have a beer waiting for you when you get to the other side. Best of luck to all you still fighting your inner demons.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 6FeetSoon on February 04, 2017, 09:19:27 PM


Now that I've been on both sides, short and normal height, I can say definitively that my happiness level remains unchanged from pre-surgery to post-surgery.


This... is EXACTLY what Rozbruch and his psychologist are looking for. They want you to be extremely motivated, driven and successful before doing this, and make sure you're not doing this for validation. Your other accomplishments should speak for themselves.

Thank you for saying this
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TheLichKing on February 04, 2017, 09:24:47 PM
Great diary bro. I'm on page 5 and will read the rest consistently. I'm sorry that your girlfriend had to break up with you, with whom you had a long-term relationship but also really glad that the surgery was ultimately worth it for you in the end since it solved psychological confusions. You were at great hands (Dr. Paley).

One thing I'm curious about (apologies if you already clarified); I notice you mention your pre-post op height 5'6->5'9 but initially stated 5'5->5'8?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 04, 2017, 09:47:49 PM
Great diary bro. I'm on page 5 and will read the rest consistently. I'm sorry that your girlfriend had to break up with you, with whom you had a long-term relationship but also really glad that the surgery was ultimately worth it for you in the end since it solved psychological confusions. You were at great hands (Dr. Paley).

One thing I'm curious about (apologies if you already clarified); I notice you mention your pre-post op height 5'6->5'9 but initially stated 5'5->5'8?
When at the Paley office for the consultation, they measured me shorter. It was in the afternoon, they also slammed the bar on my head so that I had to shrink my neck a bit. They told me that I was 5'5", which was weird because my driver license says 5'6". Anyway so I assumed that I shrunk and that my final height would be 5'8". But after the whole surgery was finished, I got remeasured at my local doctor's office, and I'm actually a little below 5'9" now - taken in the morning. It was like 174.6 cm or something like that. Now that I think about it, I think Dr. Paley's office did that to make me think that I was actually shorter than I actually was as part of their sales pitch. Their consultation felt very much like a sales pitch - like making me stand on wooden shoes to "see what it's like to be 8 cm taller".
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 09:48:30 PM
I see the misunderstanding here. When I say I'm single, it doesn't mean that I'm lonely and no girl is dating me. It means that I'm seeing several girls at once, and I haven't entered an exclusive relationship to any of them yet. I'm still playing the field because being a 5'9" young millionaire means that I get a new date request every few hours. And yes, a few of them are taller than my previous height, so I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have dated me at 5'6". I'm sorry if that statement feeds anyone's height neurosis and inner bully. This is why I didn't want to mention it in my previous posts, and just left it at "I'm single".

So, I am very much over my ex. We broke up 2 years ago! I only mentioned her because I was curious if she broke up with me because of the surgery, and she confirmed it recently. I was only telling that story as a cautionary tale that the surgery might backfire (weird gait/disproportions with tibs/femur), and not because I miss her or regret the surgery.

Of course, everyone needs a little validation every now and then. But I'm saying that I don't think I need my height to feel validated. I am validated for my many many other accomplishments. So I'm saying that this surgery wasn't necessary. Yes, it sucks to be rejected for your height. I've been there. We've all been there. But you gotta learn to take rejection and not let it affect you. Just remind yourself that everyone has a type that they like, and just because you're not HER type, doesn't mean that you're a bad date. So don't beat yourself up if you are short. Now that I've been on both sides, short and normal height, I can say definitively that my happiness level remains unchanged from pre-surgery to post-surgery.

It's interesting that you say that the "high" wears off, because that's exactly what happened with my height "high". It was amazing at first to be taller, but that slowly became the norm, and that "high" is gone. If I craved more validation for my looks, I'd do my tibs and become 5'11" and fix my proportions. But I don't. I'm happy with who I am, and all I'm saying is that I hope you guys get to that place, too. I will have a beer waiting for you when you get to the other side. Best of luck to all you still fighting your inner demons.

Lol now THIS is what I'm talking about! This is savage time! And yeah, I can imagine the height "high" wears off but that's something I actually wouldn't mind. That's like saying you lose the "high" from getting a bigger dck during puberty. Like well, eventually it does become normal, but if you had a 2 inch prepubescent dck for the rest of your life you'd really feel fkED.

Look dude, no one, NO ONE in public is looking at your proportions. Everyone has their own insecurities and 10,000 other thoughts on their mind. As much as I like to play devil on the shoulder, I wouldn't suggest you do tibias. Just wipe that thought out of your mind. You don't need to.

In your other post, you sounded lonely, contemplative, and even a bit regretful. You have in most updates, actually. This is the first time where it sounds like to me you are finally admitting that LL has been something positive.

Quote
Just remind yourself that everyone has a type that they like, and just because you're not HER type, doesn't mean that you're a bad date. So don't beat yourself up if you are short

I don't know man. When 99% of women prefer an average looking taller guy over an average looking shorter guy, it's not a "type" or "preferences" game anymore. This sounds like something someone not seeking to do LL would be saying.

Quote
I can say definitively that my happiness level remains unchanged from pre-surgery to post-surgery.

This seems a little dubious to me. What about your stress levels? What about just being "content"? You mean you don't feel any happiness from now being able to just approach women and not be immediately rejected? You don't feel any happiness from showing up to a corporate networking event and being treated like a normal person?

I feel like after I get LL I will wipe my fking forehead and say woo what a relief finally that was over with now I can go out in public in PEACE. I've already felt so much relief from just wearing like 1.5 inch lifts, so I can't imagine what 4 inches would do. Before meeting clients or a girl I'm legit worried about being too short. And I honestly can tell when they think I'm too short. There's a certain look you see on their face that is just so hilarious. It'd be nice to not have to worry about small things like that, that occur in nearly every aspect of adult life.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 04, 2017, 09:52:40 PM
DIFM said that this surgery didnt make him happy, but rather helped him not being sad anymore... Or as he said "Nirvana".

 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 09:54:30 PM
DIFM said that this surgery didnt make him happy, but rather helped him not being sad anymore... Or as he said "Nirvana".

That's just the fancy Buddhist way of saying happy. He clearly said being short made him suffer. I don't understand why this dude likes to be so dramatic and complicated. Just keep it real dude.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Rod Thick on February 04, 2017, 10:32:07 PM
DIFM

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, just my honest opinion in an open forum.

You are in the fu*ck you stage of emotions right now. That will pass and you will re enter the why did I do this surgery, she was such a good girlfriend, i'll never find someone liker her again, blah blah bullsh*t

The truth is you're better off without that c*nt anyway. Leaving you for this surgery now is far better than marrying that wh*re and then she leaves with half your net worth in a few years. You got lucky my friend.

Your biggest mistake was lengthening 8cm on your femurs, instead of stopping around 5 or 6cm, recovering quickly, and then going back for another 4 or 5cm on your tibia's. You'd be entirely proportional, perfect gait while walking, no tightness everyday, exercising, playing sports with your friends, etc...

In the end it's your choice in lengthening amount that has hurt you the most, not your loss of a worthless c*m dumpster ex girlfriend.

If i had the money and time that you claim to have, i would simply go back and tell Paley to remove 1.5-2cm worth of length in your femurs, lengthen your tibia's 4-5cm, and meet up with this ex of yours when you're even taller than you are now, while walking perfectly and in the best shape of your life.

The winning bet in that scenario is she would be the one to want you back, but the moment you realize that she would want you back and you're not interested, that's the moment you are honestly and truly over that b*tch.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 10:45:17 PM
DIFM

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, just my honest opinion in an open forum.

You are in the fu*ck you stage of emotions right now. That will pass and you will re enter the why did I do this surgery, she was such a good girlfriend, i'll never find someone liker her again, blah blah bullsh*t

The truth is you're better off without that c*nt anyway. Leaving you for this surgery now is far better than marrying that wh*re and then she leaves with half your net worth in a few years. You got lucky my friend.

Your biggest mistake was lengthening 8cm on your femurs, instead of stopping around 5 or 6cm, recovering quickly, and then going back for another 4 or 5cm on your tibia's. You'd be entirely proportional, perfect gait while walking, no tightness everyday, exercising, playing sports with your friends, etc...

In the end it's your choice in lengthening amount that has hurt you the most, not your loss of a worthless c*m dumpster ex girlfriend.

If i had the money and time that you claim to have, i would simply go back and tell Paley to remove 1.5-2cm worth of length in your femurs, lengthen your tibia's 4-5cm, and meet up with this ex of yours when you're even taller than you are now, while walking perfectly and in the best shape of your life.

The winning bet in that scenario is she would be the one to want you back, but the moment you realize that she would want you back and you're not interested, that's the moment you are honestly and truly over that b*tch.

Lol this guy is my inner monologue. But Rod, from seeing the way DIFM has reacted to regular LL, do you really think he would feel any better from doing what you said? He's already said that he's happy, so I feel like any more time spent in the hospital would be pointless. He's already won. Unless of course, removing length from femurs could possibly help with his union, then that would be good.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Iamready on February 04, 2017, 10:46:18 PM
That's just the fancy Buddhist way of saying happy. He clearly said being short made him suffer. I don't understand why this dude likes to be so dramatic and complicated. Just keep it real dude.

He's not being dramatic. I think he's just expressing the truth in how he feels. And this should be a place where members feel ok doing that. I can sympathize with him; a few inches can change your body in ways that are difficult to get used to.  I had a similar issue with my arm length and I was fortunate enough to be able to deal with it. Respect to both of you and your opinions.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Rod Thick on February 04, 2017, 11:15:22 PM
Lol this guy is my inner monologue. But Rod, from seeing the way DIFM has reacted to regular LL, do you really think he would feel any better from doing what you said? He's already said that he's happy, so I feel like any more time spent in the hospital would be pointless. He's already won. Unless of course, removing length from femurs could possibly help with his union, then that would be good.

With all due respect to DIFM, again just my honest opinion in an open forum.

He clearly has not won. He has not won in terms of healing or recovery, and he clearly is not over his ex, despite what he says at the moment. The only way out is to finish what he started, just like anything else in life. He wanted to be taller so he needs to be taller in a way that allows for a proportional look with a full recovery.

If what he says is true about his money and lifestyle, then that is the biggest loss of all. He went from a fully functional living like a rockstar guy to a disproportional low level gimp. That needs to be corrected immediately for him to ever have any kind of real closure in life.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 04, 2017, 11:39:35 PM
He's not being dramatic. I think he's just expressing the truth in how he feels. And this should be a place where members feel ok doing that. I can sympathize with him; a few inches can change your body in ways that are difficult to get used to.  I had a similar issue with my arm length and I was fortunate enough to be able to deal with it. Respect to both of you and your opinions.

You're right. I'm sorry DIFM if I came across as harsh. These diaries should serve as an honest account of how you feel at all times of the LL process. Seeing your opinion on the surgery fluctuate a little bit every update is rather, lol, unnerving, but still very valuable in knowing what to expect.

I just want the best for you man. I want you to win. I truly hope that you feel comfort in your gait and proportions, and that your recovery continues. I seriously can not BELIEVE what your ex said, having an ex say that to me would REALLY sting, and I know it would mess with me heaaavily. I seriously can't believe ANYONE would be so cruel to say something like that, knowing how much you struggled psychologically being short and then physically through the surgery. For her to be so cruel means that she must really miss you. Don't dwell on it, she probably just said that cause now you are taller and dating more women, LOL!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on February 04, 2017, 11:56:10 PM
So another example of LL being just "kick in the butt" rather then pure remedy, nothing new here.

Btw if i can ask, did she say something more about whole breaking up? You know reasoning behind pointing out your surgery.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yyes on February 05, 2017, 12:12:29 AM
Don't dwell on it, she probably just said that cause now you are taller and dating more women, LOL!

I think he said in his last update that he has been struggling with girls didnt he?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 05, 2017, 12:52:29 AM
You're right. I'm sorry DIFM if I came across as harsh. These diaries should serve as an honest account of how you feel at all times of the LL process. Seeing your opinion on the surgery fluctuate a little bit every update is rather, lol, unnerving, but still very valuable in knowing what to expect.

I just want the best for you man. I want you to win. I truly hope that you feel comfort in your gait and proportions, and that your recovery continues. I seriously can not BELIEVE what your ex said, having an ex say that to me would REALLY sting, and I know it would mess with me heaaavily. I seriously can't believe ANYONE would be so cruel to say something like that, knowing how much you struggled psychologically being short and then physically through the surgery. For her to be so cruel means that she must really miss you. Don't dwell on it, she probably just said that cause now you are taller and dating more women, LOL!

I appreciate your support. Well yea, it was a kick in the nuts when she said that about my surgery. But I stopped caring after a while. I got all these other girls who think I'm good looking. So I'm not bothered by it as much. "On to the next one" as they say.

I think he said in his last update that he has been struggling with girls didnt he?
Nah, I've been doing fine with girls. You might have mistook what I said when I said that I've been single since the surgery. I'm single by choice because now that my dating field is much much wider, there's a lot more options now for me to choose from. And I don't want to rush into another relationship before I've played the field a bit and seen what's out there. I'm really looking forward to dating this girl who's been quietly liking all my FB and Insta photos for the past 3 years, though. She's the kind of hot girl who gets like thousands of likes whenever she posts a selfie. Anyway, she started chatting with me recently, and now we have a date coming up.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yyes on February 05, 2017, 01:12:08 AM
I appreciate your support. Well yea, it was a kick in the nuts when she said that about my surgery. But I stopped caring after a while. I got all these other girls who think I'm good looking. So I'm not bothered by it as much. "On to the next one" as they say.
Nah, I've been doing fine with girls. You might have mistook what I said when I said that I've been single since the surgery. I'm single by choice because now that my dating field is much much wider, there's a lot more options now for me to choose from. And I don't want to rush into another relationship before I've played the field a bit and seen what's out there. I'm really looking forward to dating this girl who's been quietly liking all my FB and Insta photos for the past 3 years, though. She's the kind of hot girl who gets like thousands of likes whenever she posts a selfie. Anyway, she started chatting with me recently, and now we have a date coming up.

Yup I definitely misinterpreted it. Lol. My bad
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 05, 2017, 08:09:29 AM
Hey DIFM.

 I am really happy with your update and how you really have "won".

 I think that you should be honest with the positives that came from this surgery as well as with the negatives... I know that you want to emphasize the positives (more attention from women, more self esteem etc...) much less because you dont want to push anyone to do this surgery, but I truly believe that both negatives and positives should be stated to give a real picture of post-op life.
  Your last comments show a completely different picture than what you wrote when you first updated yesterday. The update almost seemed like your life only got worse while the last comments show the complete opposite.
  So again, in order to give a real picture, you should be honest about both negative (pain, proportions etc...) and postives (women, self image etc) in order to give a complete picture of how it really is afterwards.. In the end, one who reads your diary should be able to determine if the positives outweight the negatives or vice-versa.

 Thanks for the update and I wish you a wonderful life :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 05, 2017, 08:42:59 AM
Seriously....
Suddenly every one became a love doctor and makes cky(no offence)comments about him and his ex,wtf?He says he is over her and i dont think he brought that up because he isnt over or something.He just says he mentioned about her before in his diary and now explaining what she said about break up.He said he just disnt get a long term relationship for a while,thats all.
Thanks for the update mr. DIFM! Will be waiting for further updates.
And good luck with that new lady who stalks you from instagram :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Bander72 on February 05, 2017, 09:59:46 AM
He is rich though so he might as well do the tibia surgery. I know I'd go for 10 cm in two operations if I was rich too.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 05, 2017, 09:16:33 PM
He is rich though so he might as well do the tibia surgery. I know I'd go for 10 cm in two operations if I was rich too.
Money isn't an issue. It's the time wasted that I don't like. You can always make your money back, but you don't ever get your time back. I personally would rather spend the time traveling the world (I'll explain more below).

Hey DIFM.

 I am really happy with your update and how you really have "won".

 I think that you should be honest with the positives that came from this surgery as well as with the negatives... I know that you want to emphasize the positives (more attention from women, more self esteem etc...) much less because you dont want to push anyone to do this surgery, but I truly believe that both negatives and positives should be stated to give a real picture of post-op life.
  Your last comments show a completely different picture than what you wrote when you first updated yesterday. The update almost seemed like your life only got worse while the last comments show the complete opposite.
  So again, in order to give a real picture, you should be honest about both negative (pain, proportions etc...) and postives (women, self image etc) in order to give a complete picture of how it really is afterwards.. In the end, one who reads your diary should be able to determine if the positives outweight the negatives or vice-versa.

 Thanks for the update and I wish you a wonderful life :)
I reread my update from yesterday, and I can see where the misunderstanding is.

I was saying that I could have been all pathetic and dwell on the fact that the surgery caused me to lose my long-term gf. And I could have regretted the surgery. But I didn't, because I've moved on from this surgery and am not self-conscious about my looks anymore. My point wasn't that my life sucked after the surgery. My point was that I could keep looking for flaws with the way I look (weird gait/disproportion) and keep getting more surgery (getting to 5'11" with tibia surgery), or I can just stop all the crap and start enjoying my life. And I chose to do the latter, which is why I've been MIA from these forums for a long time. I realized that I don't have to wait to become perfect to start being happy.

To have an understanding as to why I feel that way, here's the honest truth about my dating life and life in general (pre-millionaire and pre-surgery and post- surgery). I didn't want to write about my personal life in such a public setting, but I think this is the only way to understand what LL will do for you:
As a teenaged 5'5" Asian dude:
I've been single for most of my teen years. Looking back at my high school pics, I could see why. I didn't dress well - my mom bought my clothes for me. I had bad haircuts. I was constantly depressed for this, because everyone else was dating someone and I was alone. I did become best friends with this cute girl, but she friend-zoned me for years. And then she ended up with a 5'10" guy. This was the first time I think I was rejected for being short. Her friends would laugh at me for being short. They said that I looked like a "little brother". This was when I first learned that girls liked taller guys. And it sucked because it wasn't something I had control over nor something I could change through exercise or something. It wasn't fair at all. I felt like even more crap when taller guys would make fun of my appearance. They said I had a big head but a small body and looked odd. One of my guy friends told me that it's a shame that I wasn't taller because I had a lot going for me except that I wasn't tall. I was really good at basketball but I would always get picked last anyway because of my height. All this superficial high school crap really drilled into me, and planted the seed for my eventual LL surgery. And I think this is where a lot of you can relate.

As a early-20s 5'6" Asian better-dressed dude:
After that pathetic teenage dating life, I wised up and started dressing better. I researched on men's fashion and asked girls for advice for dressing me up. I started reading books on how to attract girls. The number of girls interested in me shot up after that. It went from zero to maybe half a dozen. It's quite interesting how just getting better haircuts, wearing fitted clothes, and wearing contacts would do for your dating life. I was still the same guy underneath. I just looked different. This is where I realized that looks matter, despite all that crap that people say about how personality is what's important. Personality doesn't matter if girls reject you at first sight.

This was before online-dating was popular, so I only met girls through friends or school. There was this 5'5" asian girl who was really hot. She said that I was "a pretty boy"; I luckily don't have an ugly face. We studied together, gave her shoulder massages and I fell for her hard. I gave hints that I liked her, but she didn't respond well to them. A few months later, she started dating a 6' tall Asian dude. The guy was exactly like me in terms of looks and wealth and just about anything else. So I had a feeling that it was because I was short.

Fast forward a few months later, and I'm dating a rich girl. She wasn't as hot as the previous girl, but there was something nice about dating a rich girl. She brought me to different cities and paid for my plane tickets and hotel. We tried out fancy restaurants and ate really yummy foods. And I really enjoyed spending time with her.

After her were a string of long-term gfs with really no gap in between. There was always another girl who was interested in me waiting to date me. This is why I don't recommend this surgery if you're just doing it to get girls. Even though I was short (under 5'6"), I still got girls. It's true that each one was 5'5" or under. But there was always a girl who was interested in me. One of them was really pretty, too. All were Asians. No non-asians wanted to date me. Everyone of them who were interested in me were shorter than me. The only time I didn't have a girlfriend for a while was the year I spent chasing that 5'5" hot girl who ended up with the tall guy. That was a massive waste of my time. I told myself, "Don't ever just chase one girl and put her on a pedestal." This mentality eventually screwed me over later on as you'll read.

As a mid-20s 5'6" millionaire:
There is where things got interesting. Once you're a millionaire, the dating landscape changes by a lot. There's a reason why they say girls like dating rich guys. It's very very true. And the reason why I mentioned my rich girlfriend a few paragraphs back was because I've been on the other side of that type of relationship before. And it's really nice to not have to worry about money and be able to enjoy things that I otherwise couldn't afford to do. So I can see the appeal of wanting to date a rich guy.

This was when a lot of girls were interested in me and I had one-night-stands with cute girls. One time I even had 3 girls fighting to date to me at the same. I ended up sleeping with all three of them. If you really really want girls to like you, become rich. Some of the girls who rejected me before started talking to me after I became rich. I'm out of their league now, so I rejected them. I was no longer the beggar. I was now the chooser.

After having my "fun", I settled down with this awesome girl who became my last long-term girlfriend and also the longest. I took her around the world and showed her a great lifestyle. We were both deeply in love with each other. I think this was the first time I've ever fell in love. Throughout the relationship, hot girls would hang out with me and want to date me. "How?" you might ask. Here's where I was being an a$$hole: I kept a dating profile open, because I was curious if there was a better girl out there. But as I was hanging out with them, I still really wanted to be with my gf instead. Eventually I stopped using the dating profile and focused on my gf. My gf wasn't the prettiest girl I know, but she was very compatible with me. She was someone I could picture seeing myself with for the rest of my life. And during that time, I was truly happy. I had everything going for me. Life was good. And then that's when I found out about LL. And if you read my previous few updates, you'll understand why I did it. I did it because I wasn't happy with my looks. I remembered all those girls who I liked who rejected me for a taller guy. I no longer wanted that feeling again. When I looked in the mirror, I saw this short guy staring back at me. It was strange because in my mind, I'm like this 5'10" super hero playboy. But my body didn't match what my confidence was telling me I looked like. So I thought, what the heck. I have the time and money. Let's just get this last "flaw" out of my life. I did it for me - hence the username.

So I never did LL to get girls. I always got girls. It's true that not all of them were 10s. But looks didn't matter much to me, as long as the girl is a cool chick and we enjoy doing the same things together. You can find love as a short guy. You just gotta dress well, and umm... be rich. Also read a lot of relationship/dating books to figure out why girls don't like you. This helps. Most likely you just need to work out, eat well (low carbs), dress better, have awesome lifestyle pics, and treat girls like you would treat a bro instead of like putting them on a pedestal or treating them like trash. I don't believe in playing mind games with girls to get them to sleep with you. Maybe that's good for you in the short-term, but if you really want a girl to date you for a long time and be happy with dating you, communicate with her and don't play mind games.

The LL surgery:
So this is where things screwed up. My gf stayed with me during the lengthening period. While using my computer in the hotel we stayed at, she found that I had a dating profile open while I was dating her. This is where being an ahole came back to bite me in the ass. So while I never cheated on her physically, she felt cheated that I hung out with these other girls. In reality, I only hung out with two girls from the dating website for one date early in my relationship with her. And I never saw anyone else again from that dating website. But the problem was that I kept that dating profile open. I checked on it occasionally to see if any girls liked me, which was a pathetic ego thing that probably stemmed from when I used to get rejected all the time. And there were a few hundred girls who liked my profile. Most of them I didn't want to date. After a while I didn't even check on it. But she did. And she left me.

It was ironic, because I had commitment issues for many years. "Don't ever just chase one girl and put her on a pedestal." was my motto, remember? I was always curious if there were better options out there for me. And for the first time, I finally committed to a girl and decided to remain loyal to her. And she breaks up with me, because of something I did when I wasn't as committed in the past. I deserved it though. I spoke with her a few months ago after not seeing her for a while. And she told me why she broke up with me after I had asked. One of the major reasons was the dating profile, and another was because I was taller. I thought all girls liked taller guys. But apparently not her. She's now dating a guy shorter than me. I moved on after I found out that she was dating someone else. That's when I was ready to get back into the dating scene again. Which brings us to now...

As a 5'9" millionaire:
Right now is probably the pinnacle of my dating life. If you think about it, I'm quite the catch. Average height, millionaire, young, awesome lifestyle, generous, lots of free time, etc. I get like 5 or so messages a day from girls on dating apps when I don't do anything. But when I post things or update my dating profile, it goes to 10+ messages a day. A lot of the messages are asking me how I'm still single. This is probably the most interest girls have ever had with me. I also have a dating profile where I don't mention my wealth. So in that profile, I'm a 5'9" asian dude with a bunch of awesome lifestyle pics, but no mention that I'm rich. I only get like 2 messages a week in that profile. I created that profile because I didn't want girls to date me simply because I was rich. It would be amazing if some girl dated me and had no idea that I was rich. But in the real world, being rich helps a lot. If you're not rich, then being very good looking helps a lot. Problem is that I'm not like super good-looking. I'm also asian, and asian dudes don't do well on dating sites because there aren't many girls who want to date asian guys.

In other words, if I was simply taller, and not rich, my dating life wouldn't have been affected much. Sometimes people think that being taller would make girls swarm you, but it doesn't. Being rich does. In the online world, what attracts girls initially is good facial structure, wealth, and lifestyle. Then to get a girl on a date, you need a well-written profile and good communication skills - making her laugh helps. And after you attracted her and got a date, what makes a girl reject you is height, low self-esteem, lack of humor and bad personality.

And this is why I suggest guys who plan on doing this surgery to get dates to lie on their dating profile and change their height to 3 inches taller. You might be surprised to see that it makes almost no difference to how many girls are attracted to you or message you.

So fast-forward to today. I've been chatting and setting up dates with several really hot girls. And this is probably the first time I've been able to chat with 10s and they message me back quite consistently. Honestly, I'm quite surprised by how responsive the hot girls are to me now. When before, I rarely get messaged back from them. Most of them aren't even asian, so my race stopped being as much of an issue in the online dating world - though I still find the occasional girl who straight-up says that she only dates white guys. My height also stopped being a hindrance. I'd say maybe half the girls I've chatted with were taller than 5'5". So, this probably dropped the number of girls who reject me right away by a half. But if I were still 5'6", even just getting 2 message a day instead of 5 messages a day isn't so bad.

But dating isn't always about quantity, since you can only date marry one girl at a time anyway. In terms of quality, I have to admit that being the complete package made the hotness of girls I attract much higher. Unless you look like a model, I highly doubt that average guys attract the hotness of girls I'm attracting even if they were 6' tall. I know this because I changed that profile where I didn't mention my wealth to say that I'm 6' tall, and the number/hotness of girls who messaged me back didn't go up. Which is why I cringed a bit when someone mentioned that 5'10" guys on tinder are getting one-night-stands and blah blah blah. I mean, go ahead and experiment it for yourself. I think some short guys have this fantasy of sleeping with a lot of girls after being taller. I hate to say it, but I think the real reason why I'm attracting so many girls is because I'm rich af. Sorry, but your height isn't going to help you that much more unless you're already attracting girls before. Having said that, the last 5 girls I've been on dates with were 5'6", 5'7", 5'3", 5'7", and 5'9". And I have upcoming dates in the next few weeks or so with a 5'5", 5'7", same 5'9" girl, and unknown height girl. And it's not because only 4 girls want to date me. It's because I don't have the time to date all the other ones who have been messaging me. So the surgery did help widen the dating field a bit. If I was in my old height, my guess is that only half of them would have agreed to go on a date with me.

The irony now is that the girl who I'm most looking forward to dating is the unknown height girl who had been quietly liking my fb/insta pics for the past 3 years, including when I wasn't tall. She's the hottest girl I've ever spoken to and got a date with. In other words, I didn't need this surgery at all. She doesn't know my height, but she looks shorter than my previous height. That's what prompted me to write my update after my long hiatus from this forum. I was able to attract one of the hottest girls I've ever seen in my life without the height. The date might not go well and she might not end up being my wife or gf, but it doesn't matter to me. My lifestyle attracted her, and that must mean that I'm living a pretty good life. And that's why I'm happy and pretty content with myself.

And now you know why I don't recommend this surgery. I recommend becoming rich instead. And if being rich means not wasting $100,000 on a surgery, then don't do the surgery. But it's also why I don't regret this surgery. It helped me a bit, and I didn't lose much time/money relative to what I have.

In terms of lack of respect for being short and all that crap. That stuff was all in high school/college. Maybe it's in the corporate world too but I don't work in the corporate world. For the past few years, my success outshone the fact that I was short. That's why you'll notice that a lot of people considering LL are usually younger people. As you get older, your height doesn't matter as much anymore. The only thing left remaining was the inner demon that spawned from years of rejection from girls for being short. I know that some of you have that metaphorical demon, too. That's why I hope you guys can successfully fight that demon off. It took me getting this surgery for me to fight it off. I hope you don't have to go through what I had to endure to do the same.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 05, 2017, 09:36:15 PM
^

Damn, bravo man. This post feels like one of the most informative things I've read on here since I've been lurking. I can see now how you have pretty neutral feelings towards the surgery. I'm really happy for you.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on February 05, 2017, 09:38:13 PM
What do you do then, if you aren't in the corporate world, but rich? And what counts as "rich" to you? It's all pretty relative.

re: height and women, I agree and it's good to see this. I don't think height absolutely counts that much, it's just if you're taller you'll probably reach the cut off point of more women overall, up to a certain point. I think other than the cut-off it's not a very important thing for attractiveness.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 05, 2017, 09:43:28 PM
What do you do then, if you aren't in the corporate world, but rich? And what counts as "rich" to you? It's all pretty relative.

re: height and women, I agree and it's good to see this. I don't think height absolutely counts that much, it's just if you're taller you'll probably reach the cut off point of more women overall, up to a certain point. I think other than the cut-off it's not a very important thing for attractiveness.

I mean did you see the heights of the girls he's recently been on dates on? The only rule is: just be taller (or as tall as) the girl.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on February 05, 2017, 09:47:49 PM
There's no hard and fast "rule" but that's the safest one.

That said I think about 4-8 inches is the golden difference for compatibility (human beings are sxxually dimorphic by around that range on average, I think around average height is honestly the best when it comes to biological attraction), but what the f**k, like I said before height is only one of many things that is taken into consideration.

Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Bander72 on February 06, 2017, 12:25:59 AM
If only it were easy to be rich. :'(
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on February 06, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
If I was rich I'd do fk all with my life, though. Assuming I was rich and lazy.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 06, 2017, 06:13:23 PM
One is kinda for old times sake (if you know me well that is). But, in light of who it came from, if you feel it's in bad taste feel free to ignore: that comment about disproportionation, was that just about femur to tibia, or also applies to leg to torso? Would it have been noticeable if it the increase was perfectly balanced on both segments?

Lastly, what now man? What's your plan and when should we expect another update? From what I can tell you definitely want to start moving on.

So if you don't mind, DIFM, I don't think you answered these questions yet lol. Might have missed them with all that stuff that was going on that day I posted it. But I'm still curious.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 06, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
I greatly appreciate the honesty man. Really do. On top of that I do find myself happiest when I'm far away from the forums at that. ("Heightism" just doesn't really affect me).

So I have to ask 2 questions now after all of this.

One is kinda for old times sake (if you know me well that is). But, in light of who it came from, if you feel it's in bad taste feel free to ignore: that comment about disproportionation, was that just about femur to tibia, or also applies to leg to torso? Would it have been noticeable if it the increase was perfectly balanced on both segments?

Lastly, what now man? What's your plan and when should we expect another update? From what I can tell you definitely want to start moving on.
It was femur to tibia ratio. I had short legs to begin with, so the leg to torso ratio actually looks fine now. But when I bend my knees, it looks very weird because my thighs are really long, but my shins are very short.

This is what I used to look like: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XlI2F.jpg

Now I look like this: http://i39.tinypic.com/qqeedz.jpg or the asian guy in the center of this pic except imagine if my feet started where his socks start: https://ninamatsumoto.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/athletes05.jpg

What now? I'm done with thinking about all this. My next update will probably be when I'm ready to get my rods removed and I'll let you guys know how that goes.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 07, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
That update was hugeee!Thanks man!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Tiger5 on February 11, 2017, 02:25:26 PM
Hey DIFM, thanks for all of your updates,
Did you get the two femur precice rods removed yet?
If yes, would you mind briefly telling us how that experience was, were you able to walk out of there and drive away like I heard is the case?  Anything you can add is greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance
T
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on February 11, 2017, 07:08:02 PM
Hey DIFM, thanks for all of your updates,
Did you get the two femur precice rods removed yet?
If yes, would you mind briefly telling us how that experience was, were you able to walk out of there and drive away like I heard is the case?  Anything you can add is greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance
T

What now? I'm done with thinking about all this. My next update will probably be when I'm ready to get my rods removed and I'll let you guys know how that goes.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EndGame on February 12, 2017, 05:46:50 PM
DIFM, great diary. Thank you for sharing.

You mentioned the gap in bone is still barely progressing. In the past when you mentioned that issue you seemed to be concerned that a bone graft would be needed. Did Paley tell you it won't be needed after your last x-ray? Hope so.

Regarding dating updates, I was surprised to learn you mention your money in dating profiles so directly. I'd assumed it would come across poorly, like a guy walking up to a girl I a bar and saying I'm a millionaire can I buy you a drink. Of course, women say it's tacky to do a shirtless pic to show off a six pack, but some guys say it actually works well. I don't have six pack abs so I can't test my profile with or without such a pic lol. Perhaps the lifestyle pics make it credible (unlike an empty claim of riches at a bar) and it works great even though I can't picture women saying it would work. Did you find there were good ways vs bad ways to highlight your success in your profile? In terms of either how many more women are interested or getting more vs less just gold digger types? From what you write I'm not at your level of success but I've found having success helps me not surprisingly. However, I generally found leading overtly with money brings in the wrong women for me. One poster mentioned how his mom left his dad after the financial crisis and he lost his high paying job. Maybe it's not realistic to think I'd like the benefit of attracting a woman I couldn't get without money to not just care about the money so much... I found pre LL being short was a big disadvantage, and that success made a big difference but didn't like feeling like money was such big factor. Perhaps, since a woman could never divorce me and take half my height I like the feeling I get when a woman is into me in large part due to being tall but I don't like that feeling when it's money. Odd to me in some ways given both money and height are superficial so why should I care one vs the other... You always seem very insightful and wise in a way to me in your diary. I'd love to get any thoughts on this stuff you wouldn't mind sharing.

Hope your happiness continues! Congrats!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 12, 2017, 06:02:08 PM
How is your dating life post LL endgame?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: EndGame on February 12, 2017, 06:24:27 PM
How is your dating life post LL endgame?

I don't want to hijack DIFM diary, but I'll make this one post, being taller helping me a lot. Seeing a girl who I can sense when she looks up at me likes I'm much taller than her. Slept with an ex recently who was like wow you must have been working out, you look thinner, you seem taller, you look so good. I feel like a lot of women used to not give me a chance because of my height and that's changed, but I didn't magically become a player overnight either.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on February 12, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
How tall were you when you started LL, and how tall were you when you finished, endgame?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 14, 2017, 08:24:43 AM
Here's update on my dating life, since it seems like some of you are interested in it. Warning: Before I start, I should mention that a lot of this will sound like bragging, but I am only telling you it so you have an idea of what dating life is like after LL and what you can do to improve your own dating game. I'm not a dating guru, though. I just have a decade and a half of dating experience with a lot of trial and error. So I'm just telling you what worked for me. It might not work for you in your culture/country. If this wasn't an anonymous diary, I wouldn't even tell this story, because I hate bragging - especially when it comes to bragging about women for personal gain. This is all a true story, and I gain nothing by lying.

Today I took the prettiest/hottest girl I've ever met back to my bedroom and we made out like crazy. And this was only a day after meeting her for the first time. She says that it feels like she has known me forever. She's a mixed race and has the most gorgeous blue eyes. I met her online.

A day before that, I was on a date with another girl, who was a 5'10" model who won one of those international beauty contests. Yes, she was taller than me by at least an inch. I didn't plan on meeting her this week, but she messaged me that morning to ask me out on a date and I said, sure why not. She was really into me, not because of my looks or height, but because she liked how intelligent I was. And tomorrow I had to cancel my second date with a hot 5'9" college girl, because I am seeing that mixed, blue-eyed girl for Valentine's Day and don't want to date anyone else at this point.

Yesterday, I wasn't so sure if that hottest girl was into me or not. She is way way out of my league. I'm like a 7 in terms of looks for my face, and like a 5 or 6 for my body right now. And she was absolutely perfect. On both dates I've gone out with her, random girls like waitresses or just girls on the street would comment on how pretty she looked. She dresses like a fashion model - which is important to girls, so dress well!!! Seriously, you guys want to dress better, because dressing well makes you look more attractive without having to go to the gym more or getting surgery. It's very effective.

So today was a great day because she couldn't keep her hands off me after I took her back to the bedroom. I honestly would never have thought in my lifetime that I'd be dating someone like her. You know how you have these fantasies about dating really hot celebrities, but in the back of your mind, you know it will never happen because they're out of your league? Well, she was hotter than a lot of the celebs who appear on Maxim magazine, and I absolutely thought someone like her was just a fantasy and that only 6'0" male models would be able to date her. If you saw us two standing next to each other, you'd never think that I was dating her. In fact, people on the street kept walking between us, because they thought that I wasn't dating her. A woman on the bus even gave me this look as though I was a stalker, because I kept following her around closely. Every guy AND girl was checking her out. It was funny to watch almost every guy look up and down her as she walked by. But on top of this, she's very humble, and caring, and intelligent! So as you can imagine, I've fallen for this girl. BUT, I still don't treat her like she's all that, because I never want to her to realize that she could do so much better than me haha. And that's just part of the dating game, because you never want to look insecure to the girl. That's unattractive. You have to appear like you're doing her a favor by dating her, even though you sure as hell know that she could do better.

And this makes me a bit more conflicted with not recommending this surgery, because she's... 5'7". She probably wouldn't have dated me at my previous height. So... sigh. I hate to say it, but I actually do recommend this surgery for your dating life if it means going above the 5'7" height. It's not necessary. But it helps. For example, it's not necessary to be rich to get a date, but it helps. I'm sorry for flip-flopping again. But now you should understand why. Without the LL surgery, my gf wouldn't have left me, and I wouldn't have dated this girl - who is, so far, much better than my ex. But I only recommend it if you are already successful with women. It will not turn you from a loser to a Casanova. If you want to know how I get girls so effortlessly, read more below.

You mentioned the gap in bone is still barely progressing. In the past when you mentioned that issue you seemed to be concerned that a bone graft would be needed. Did Paley tell you it won't be needed after your last x-ray? Hope so.

You always seem very insightful and wise in a way to me in your diary. I'd love to get any thoughts on this stuff you wouldn't mind sharing.
Paley said I don't need a bone graft, because there's still growth, but just very very slow growth. He suggested that I remove the lower screws on the rods so that I would put pressure on the gap, and hopefully that would stimulate growth. I said that I'd just wait it out. I don't want to risk breaking my legs again - especially after hearing about what happened to ProgramDude.

So here's my take on displaying success on dating profiles. You need to be humble about it and not like flat out say how much you make. Just hint at it with your pictures or your job description. And don't over do it! You only need to hint at it once. If you talk about it too much then it looks like all you can offer is your money. Instead, show that you're more than just money.

I have two dating profiles. One with no mention of wealth and one with. The difference between the two is just one sentence at the beginning that strongly hints that I'm very wealthy. The quality of girls vary a lot between the two profiles. It's much better to show success in dating profiles, because success really does attract women. People who aren't successful often tell me to not mention it in the profile because it attracts the "wrong type" of girls. And yes, there's a lot of "ghetto" girls who will message you when you display your wealth. And yes, I have been on at least one date with a gold digger. There were warning signs for it, but since she was really hot, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I ended up losing like $200 because of the massive amount of steaks and alcoholic drinks she kept ordering. But most aren't. Some even try to pay for the meals to subtly prove that they're not gold diggers, either to me or themselves.

So the way I view it is that displaying your wealth is like a girl displaying her cleavage in the profile pic. Yes, it makes a lot of horny creepy guys want to date her, but it'll also attract more guys in general. And among those guys will be at least someone worth going out with. It's all a numbers game, in my opinion. The wider the net you cast, the more bad fish you will catch. But you also will catch more good fish, too!

You just have to be able to tell the bad fish from the good ones. For example, to avoid gold diggers, I only date girls who are financially independent, meaning that they have jobs and their own place or have rich parents. If they're lazy, you can tell, and those will most likely become gold diggers. If you give them a list of restaurants to go to and they always pick the most expensive one even after you suggest a cheaper one, then they're most likely gold diggers. If they don't pay for anything or even attempt to pay for anything, then they're gold diggers. If they ask about your money and your wealth often, then they're most likely gold diggers. If they start taking a lot of selfies with your Buggati, then they're most likely Instagram/Snapchat picture whores. Those are most likely narcissists. Run away. You get the picture. Just filter out the bad ones, and then just go out with the good ones. I only date the top 1% of the girls who message me. There's a higher ratio for girls who I message first, because I chose them first, and it wasn't like a gold digger chose me first. If you do the choosing first, then it's less likely to be a gold digger because most girls aren't gold diggers. But if the girl messages you first, then most likely you shouldn't really date them. Also if they message you first, then they are either below your league, at your league, or above your league but have self-esteem issues. Either way is bad, because you want to date girls who are above your league. You only live once! Don't settle for less!

I think I'm more attractive during dates, because I know there are other attractive girls who want to date me, so I'm not like putting any of these girls on a pedestal. Instead, it seems like I'm not even that interested in them. But that doesn't mean that I'm boring on dates. I take girls to do all sorts of fun things that usually ends with taking them back to my place. Every hour or two hours, I take them to somewhere new and fun to explore. Preferably somewhere they haven't been before. Even though it's the environment that makes it fun, and not you, it makes them think of fun when they think of you. And you want girls to associate "fun" when they think of you. In almost every first date I've been on, the girl ends up in my bedroom by the end of the date. And no, I'm not sleeping with them on the first date. I'm very selective on who I sleep with. I might even question the quality of the girl if she would sleep with me on a first date.

So, showing some interest but not a lot of interest makes them want me even more. I think hot girls are just used to guys drooling over them. And it makes sense to me because I've been on the other side of this before. Once a hot girl is showing too much interest in me, it does make them seem less attractive to me, because it makes me wonder if I could do better. Think of it like buying a used car or house. If you show too much interest in it, then the seller would raise the prices because he will think that his car/house is worth more than he asked for because you've shown a lot of interest as though it's a bargain. But if you don't show that much interest in it, the seller might even lower his sale price to try to get you to buy the car/house. So if you play hard to get, the girl will chase you back - given that she had some interest in you in the first place. Playing hard to get also weeds out girls who are only iffy about you. They will stop responding to your texts, and it wouldn't matter to you, because you have other girls to date. So don't get hung over any girl, especially if they don't show interest. It's so much better for a girl to chase you than for you to chase her, even though in your mind, she's way above your league.

So I think being successful is attractive not because you have a lot of money. There are stories about girls who dump rich guys because they aren't self-made, but only inherited a lot of money. Girls are attracted to success because of the man it takes to become successful. I'm talking about being intelligent, hard working, ambitious, not lazy, and dedicated. All those traits are very attractive. Girls really dislike guys who are lazy. Being intelligent also turns on intelligent girls. But I'm not even books smart, since I don't read that much. I'm more like clever and logical. There's a difference, and it's more attractive be the latter. Anyone can be a nerd and be books smart. But you kind of have to be born with a high IQ to be clever and logical.

And then you have to do more than just be successful. So some of models I've dated have dated other rich guys before. And luckily, a lot of rich guys absolutely suck at dating - or at least the ones who are still single do. Here's where some of them suck at dating:

1) They feel entitled to sex if they pay for dinner and expensive gifts. Don't do that. Don't treat girls like prostitutes!
2) They are controlling because they aren't used to people saying no to them. Don't do that, girls need their space.
3) They treat wait staff poorly, because they think they're better than them because they have money. Don't do that. Treat everyone equally no matter how much they make.
4) They aren't generous, because some rich people are rich because they are greedy and horde money. Don't do that. Nobody wants to date a cheapo.

I could go on, but you have the idea.

Here's what you SHOULD do:
Do volunteer work. Travel. Be kind to people. Dress well. Learn to be funny - watch a lot of stand-up comedy, but don't attempt humor if you aren't that great at it because it will backfire if it looks like you're trying too hard. These are the things that attract girls, and it's why I stand out and attract the highest quality of girls. Most of these traits have nothing to do with being rich. You can appear that way even if you were poor. There are girls who are attracted to people who are at least trying to be successful. So you don't even need to be successful yet. Some girls even only date the ones who are trying to be successful instead of the ones who already are successful. They feel that the already successful ones wouldn't be loyal to them since they have so many options - which is true, like I said, I had commitment issues in the past.

Anyway. Good luck to all those who are still single. A decade ago, you'd probably have thought that I'd never get a girlfriend, not because I was short, but because how little I knew about how to attract girls. So there's hope for everyone. You just got to learn to be more attractive. And that doesn't mean that you have be physically attractive, as I mentioned in the paragraphs above.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 14, 2017, 11:04:05 PM
You know DIFM, you experience is your experience. It is not a rule. If you read Iamready's diary, you would see that he now has more success with all women of all height (even getting hit on by women rather than chasing them). The added height does give you a boost (in self confidence but also without doubt a physical one) and this should not be neglected. Also, most people aren't super rich like you so they would have different experience regarding attraction. But I know many not rich guys who do very good with women and most of them are in the 174-180cm range
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 14, 2017, 11:45:14 PM
I think you missed what I wrote, but I said that being taller helped. I wouldn't be with this 5'7" girl if I wasn't 5'9". I have LL to thank for this. I'd say it improved my dating life by double, because it doubled the number of girls who want to date me. But the quality of the girls have gone up as well.

I want to add that girls chased me prior to LL as well. For example, the prettiest girl I know who has been facebook stalking me for 3 years liked me even before I did LL. But she didn't know my height. And yes, I think financial success is the major key here in terms of attraction - not because I have a lot of money, but because I display positive traits that a successful person has like hard working, determined, intelligent and ambitious, but I also display other traits in my dating profile that other successful people don't have like volunteer work, caring, and generosity. I think height is the major key in terms of rejection. That's the difference I was trying to make. And I want people to improve on their dating game first before they jump to LL, since there are major things you can do first to improve your dating life without LL. But once you've improved everything else and ran out of things, then LL would indeed improve your dating life. I don't have any doubts about it. But I also believe that it will only improve it significantly if it's the difference between being short and being average. I think the difference between being average and being tall is not as significant, because so far not one girl has rejected me based on height while I'm 5'9" - even though I went on dates with a 5'10" asian beauty pageant winner who still talks to me, and am talking with a 5'11" blonde blue-eyed Russian model who wrote on her profile that she only dates 6'+ guys.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on February 15, 2017, 03:40:45 PM
I have to say, I think DIFM has the right attitude about this. While I'm not filthy rich the way he is, I am of above average success in my own right. I'm actually in the best shape of my life right now (5'8", 180lbs, lean, ripped, etc.). And I have always had 9/10 facial aesthetics (have been compared to the likes of Tom Cruise, Nick Bateman, John Stamos, etc.). So even at 5'5", I got attractive girls, but definitely got rejected because of my height a fair amount. And generally felt like I "didn't belong" in groups of guys because I was so short.

Honest to God...I really don't think men who are at least 5'7" need this surgery. If you are at least 5'7", as long as you're not butt ugly, you had a decent job and you stay in shape...you can definitely get girls. Yeah, 5'8" is better (but still borderline), you really need to be 5'9" and up to be 100% safe from the vast majority of women and their requirements...but 5'7" isn't bad at all. I think if I were 5'7" naturally, I wouldn't have gotten this surgery.

I still have that annoying (although it's been happening less) recurring pain in my right leg (which has healed completely), and my left leg is still slowly consolidating. I still have to get the rods removed, deal with more scarring, etc. And while I'm fine with my proportions for the most part (and not even women who have seen me nked have commented on them, except one girl who said "you have nice long muscular legs" lol), sometimes I get down when I sit next to a guy who is my new height naturally, and my sitting height is a bit shorter than his. I've learned to accept it because, well, I can't go back and be short again. I still think going from a bit over 5'5" to a solid 5'8" is worth the meh proportions I have to deal with (but that's MY issue).

Like DIFM said, none of us can ever be perfect, and I'm working towards accepting myself fully. I'll always wish I was given HGH as a kid, but there's no time machine, and I can't go back and change the past. So being 5'8" with less than perfect proportions will have to do (and again, no one has EVER commented on my post-LL proportions, this is all me and my inner insecurities about it).

I am with DIFM - if you are at least 5'7", you really don't need this surgery. Some of you guys who are already 5'10" and up who want this are crazy. But to each his own. We all deserve to be happy, right?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 6FeetSoon on February 15, 2017, 03:51:04 PM

I am with DIFM - if you are at least 5'7", you really don't need this surgery. Some of you guys who are already 5'10" and up who want this are crazy. But to each his own. We all deserve to be happy, right?

A 5'7 guy in New Delhi vs a 5'7 guy in Amsterdam will likely have differing views on "needing" the surgery. It can be very subjective. As you'll know from my story, as a 5'9 model from LA in NYC, my circle of friends is quite a bit taller than average (5'10 female, 6'1 male).. so I certainly have a different perspective, but your point is understood.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 15, 2017, 06:42:17 PM
There is no starting height in which you "need" it. Yeah, a guy who is 5'5 sure "suffers" more than a 5'7 guy in terms of physical attraction. But that's where it starts and ends. When guys here will start to admit that they are doing this in order to improve their physical image and also their "manliness", it will all be much more simple and have much more sense..

 Yellow did it for the exact same reason 6feet want to do it which is to improve physical apppereance... And there is nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on February 15, 2017, 07:02:49 PM
Yes suffering is relative, it depends on your siblings, that country you live in, you co-workers, etc. I'm just saying that, at least in America (can't speak for other countries), if you're at least 5'7", you should be able to get by. Looking back, I think I were 5'7", I wouldn't have done this. If you build a good body at 5'7" and you're not hideously ugly, you can do just fine.

Totally understand that we all have our own reasons to do this. I'm just saying it's really men below 5'7/5'8" who actually "need" to do it. Because if you're shorter than 5'7", that's when you start running into a lot of females (even without heels) who are your height or taller.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 15, 2017, 09:59:23 PM
If it makes you feel better, 6feetsoon, the perfect girl who I am dating now is 5'7" and from NYC. While yes, I do see a lot of tall guys in NYC, I also think you are ignoring the short ones. I am easily taller than 90% of the people taking public transportation in NYC.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 6FeetSoon on February 15, 2017, 11:57:09 PM
If it makes you feel better, 6feetsoon, the perfect girl who I am dating now is 5'7" and from NYC. While yes, I do see a lot of tall guys in NYC, I also think you are ignoring the short ones. I am easily taller than 90% of the people taking public transportation in NYC.

Haha you weren't paying attention when i said that my coworkers and social network are all also in the modeling industry. It's a different playing field altogether.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on February 16, 2017, 07:17:56 AM
If it makes you feel better, 6feetsoon, the perfect girl who I am dating now is 5'7" and from NYC. While yes, I do see a lot of tall guys in NYC, I also think you are ignoring the short ones. I am easily taller than 90% of the people taking public transportation in NYC.
You are rich af man.Why do you use public transportation? :D(ive mever been in ny,assuming its because of traffic?)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 16, 2017, 07:51:21 AM
You are rich af man.Why do you use public transportation? :D(ive mever been in ny,assuming its because of traffic?)
The subway is sometimes faster than car because NYC traffic during rush hour is the worst. Sometimes it would take you 15 minutes just to make a left turn because the left turn isn't allowed so you have to make three right turns and it takes that long just to make those turns. Even Google co-founder and Keanu Reeves uses the subway.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 16, 2017, 08:21:52 AM
Haha you weren't paying attention when i said that my coworkers and social network are all also in the modeling industry. It's a different playing field altogether.
But I'm saying that you can compare yourself to the shorter people all around NYC, and then you won't feel as short anymore. I can't even say "short" because you're my height and I don't feel short at all. When the 5'10" beauty pageant winner stood next to me and even wore two inch heels, I didn't feel short next to her. She was looming over me and I was definitely shorter than her but I didn't feel short. Even when I asked her if it bothered her, she said, "No, does it bother you?" And it honestly didn't. She was really into me and I felt like my personality overpowered her view that I was short. The best way for me to explain it is that a lot of people don't know that Tom Cruise is short. That's because his presence and charisma exudes like someone who is larger than life. I also hang out with a lot of models due to my lifestyle, so I do understand what you're going through a bit because the modeling industry is all about physical looks. So I do understand your desire to be taller. It might even be the only scenario where I think a 5'9" guy getting LL is justified. I just don't want you to ever feel like you're short because you aren't short at all.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: BelowTheMean on February 23, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
Thanks for the updates DIFM! I enjoyed reading them and hope to have a LL journal as insightful as yours someday.

I have some random thoughts to add. As a 5'7" (barely, in the morning) Asian guy around your age living in a major US city, my dating experiences have been very similar to yours. Many years ago I was absolutely clueless on how to not get friend-zoned by girls, but over time I learned and built myself up to be attractive to females. I would say now that I'm at least above average in the dating game (near triple digits) yet throughout it all I have seen so many times how detrimental being short is to success with women. I'm still strongly considering getting LL, and primarily for the benefit on dating. This is my reasoning:

Quality - I'm fairly selective and I'd much rather stay in than go out with a girl under a 7, but at the same time it's not like I'm getting dates with super hot girls all the time. The amount of "stats" you need as a guy increases exponentially the hotter the girl is. While money is one potential solution, I'd need a ton more than the cost of LL to stand out there. Adding a few inches of height on top of my existing game though, will have a direct impact, or at the very least be a strong confidence booster. Even if we don't use beauty as a proxy for quality, overall getting LL will give you a shot with better girls if you've already maxed out your game elsewhere.

Access - Now if you don't meet girls in the first place where are you going to even get chances to approach hot girls? I've only gone on handful of online dates and they were meh. I had matches, but they were pretty much the exact same type as the kind I would meet IRL but took a lot more effort to close, so I've been sticking to meeting people at social events, parties, etc. It's been a while since I tried online dating, but I would say girls filter hard on height after pictures so being a little taller would definitely increase the base pool of girls to select from, both online and IRL.

Variety - Like you said, as an Asian guy it's relatively easy to get all sorts of Asian females, but incredibly hard to break out of the race. As this is an anonymous online forum I can admit that I've only been with one white girl, and she wasn't even that attractive. I'm definitely not saying that height is the only thing preventing me from getting white girls, but rather at present the white girls I can get are not nearly as hot as the Asian girls (from a race-neutral perspective) so why would I put effort into getting mediocre white girls when I can date more attractive Asians? Since girls of all races care about height and the most important threshold is being at least an inch or two taller than the girl, the extra height helps more with non-Asians.

End-game - While all of this sounds kind of vain, ultimately I do want to settle down and propagate my genetic legacy at some point, which gives a purpose to all the stringent criteria on dating. While marriage is very risky as you can only truly control your own side when it comes to commitment, I do think the best way to go about it is still some kind of formalized commitment. You also have to get a girl that's totally into you from the start, and not just settling or being okay with it. While this sounds simple on paper, if you want a high quality girl, she's going to have higher standards herself. Girls care a lot about height, so increasing your height (after everything else is optimized) will definitely be beneficial.

Obviously there are other reasons to get LL aside from women, and tons of drawbacks from getting LL but I thought I'd add those points since that's the direction the conversation has been going in this diary. I think if you have everything else together then LL can be the cherry on top. Guys that don't have everything else together should definitely work on themselves first, which is why it's understandable that you have been hesitant to recommend or praise LL, especially regarding it's benefits on dating. Ultimately, dating is a numbers game and there are many things that can increase your pool or increase your success rate. LL is just one of them and it's not a very optimized solution, so for anyone who is doing this for women, make sure you try everything else first (and there is a lot to try) especially if you are young. There are probably many other things you can improve in your life that have a more direct and immediate impact.

Personally I already have an optimized dating pipeline, but I don't want to just keep following the path of least resistance. I think LL can help push me to the next level.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 26, 2017, 01:15:43 PM
Quality - I'm fairly selective and I'd much rather stay in than go out with a girl under a 7, but at the same time it's not like I'm getting dates with super hot girls all the time. The amount of "stats" you need as a guy increases exponentially the hotter the girl is. While money is one potential solution, I'd need a ton more than the cost of LL to stand out there. Adding a few inches of height on top of my existing game though, will have a direct impact, or at the very least be a strong confidence booster. Even if we don't use beauty as a proxy for quality, overall getting LL will give you a shot with better girls if you've already maxed out your game elsewhere.
At this point, I only date 9s and 10s, but only because there are so many girls trying to date me right now, that I've just been picky like that just to reduce the number of dates I have to go on from one a day down to two-three different girls a week. Dating has been become a full-time job for me, because I'm constantly in search of my future wife right now. My last long term gf is probably a 8-9 in looks, but her personality was a 10. I think dating a girl solely on looks is stupid if you're planning on marrying the girl. More important are things like, personality-clashes (are you both stubborn?), do you enjoy doing the same activities together, and how well she treats other people. Looks fade over time. Having said that, I took a break from my current gf (the hottest/prettiest girl), because she has some major issues to work through. I'm still open to dating her in the future, but she has to sort out her life first - and I'm talking about deal-breaker type issues. I'm about to go on a date with another girl in 3 hours, who's 5'9", European. Last night I went on a date with that 5'10" asian international beauty queen again, and I just wasn't feeling it. We watched a movie in my bed, and I wrapped my arms around her waist. She leaned her head on my chest. She gave me that look like she wanted to kiss me, and nope, there was just no chemistry. And it had nothing to do with her looks. She gets hundreds of messages from guys on her dating profile, and she dated 100 millionaires before. I just didn't like her personality. So, don't underestimate how important personality is when it comes to dating. Be physically attracted to them at least, but don't rank girls based on looks. I rather date a 8-in-looks but 10-in-personality girl, than a 10-in-looks, but 8-in-personality girl.

Access - Now if you don't meet girls in the first place where are you going to even get chances to approach hot girls? I've only gone on handful of online dates and they were meh. I had matches, but they were pretty much the exact same type as the kind I would meet IRL but took a lot more effort to close, so I've been sticking to meeting people at social events, parties, etc. It's been a while since I tried online dating, but I would say girls filter hard on height after pictures so being a little taller would definitely increase the base pool of girls to select from, both online and IRL.
Online dating is brutal for asian guys in the U.S. and I heard from my white guy friends that it's super easy for them being in an Asian country. But I also noticed that my online dating game is much better on less popular dating websites/apps. Places of OKC, Bumble, POF, and Tinder were flops for me, because my looks is only like 7 at best. So the app/dating site mostly matched me with under-7 girls, and only a small number of 7+. I believe those sites only show you to people who match you in looks, which isn't my strong suit. So, instead I use dating sites geared toward rich men - not sugardaddy websites, though. Luckily, I'm considered good-looking compared the 40-50 year old rich men, since I'm in my early 30s. I'm also not creepy compared to the rich men who are trying to date people as young as their daughters or trying to buy a girls affection with money. This is where I'm getting matched with 9s and 10s all the time. Also I find that girls who want to date rich/successful men instead of simply good-looking men tend to be more mature themselves. I find the ones who care about looks in a guy tend to be immature.

Variety - Like you said, as an Asian guy it's relatively easy to get all sorts of Asian females, but incredibly hard to break out of the race. As this is an anonymous online forum I can admit that I've only been with one white girl, and she wasn't even that attractive. I'm definitely not saying that height is the only thing preventing me from getting white girls, but rather at present the white girls I can get are not nearly as hot as the Asian girls (from a race-neutral perspective) so why would I put effort into getting mediocre white girls when I can date more attractive Asians? Since girls of all races care about height and the most important threshold is being at least an inch or two taller than the girl, the extra height helps more with non-Asians.
Prior to LL I only attracted mostly Asian girls, but my long-term gf was white. After LL, most of my dates are non-Asian and still hot - like this blonde, blue-eyed Russian model I've been talking to. So you might be right, height is probably one of the main issue that non-asian girls have with asian guys. When I spoke with girls about why they don't date Asian guys, they said, asian guys tend to be shorter and facial structure isn't as hot as white guys. But they did say that Asian guys tend to have better culture, work ethic, more money, smarter, and more loyal.

End-game - While all of this sounds kind of vain, ultimately I do want to settle down and propagate my genetic legacy at some point, which gives a purpose to all the stringent criteria on dating. While marriage is very risky as you can only truly control your own side when it comes to commitment, I do think the best way to go about it is still some kind of formalized commitment. You also have to get a girl that's totally into you from the start, and not just settling or being okay with it. While this sounds simple on paper, if you want a high quality girl, she's going to have higher standards herself. Girls care a lot about height, so increasing your height (after everything else is optimized) will definitely be beneficial.
Here's what I think about it. Things like looks and height are just the initial ice breaker that makes a girl want to talk to you. I always ask guys who are doing LL to get girls to first change their dating profile to 5'10" or whatever their post-LL height is going to be. And then see if their dating life changed. As of yet, I still haven't heard from any guy who actually went and did this and came back to tell me that their dating life improved by a lot by lying about their height. This is because height is just one of many criteria that girls seek. They want things like:

[] Stability
[] Feeling protected
[] Financial freedom
[] Comfort
[] Loyalty
[] Sense of humor
[] Intelligence
[] Height
[] Kindness
[] Caring
[] Generous
[] Healthy
[] Well-dressed
[] Handsome face

See? It's just one of many things. When guys get rejected by height, they come on these short forums and curse the world about how it sucks to be short and how they're forever alone and etc. And yet they don't realize that they probably failed in many other parts of that checklist and height was only just one of them. Interestingly enough, height/facial structure is probably the only one on the list that guys have no control over without surgery. That's why I tell guys without a GF thinking about LL to work on their other areas first. Just from reading how some these men speak, I can already tell why girls don't want to date them. Some guys on here sound very controlling and look down on women. It's not actually the type of trait that girls yearn for.

Obviously there are other reasons to get LL aside from women, and tons of drawbacks from getting LL but I thought I'd add those points since that's the direction the conversation has been going in this diary. I think if you have everything else together then LL can be the cherry on top. Guys that don't have everything else together should definitely work on themselves first, which is why it's understandable that you have been hesitant to recommend or praise LL, especially regarding it's benefits on dating. Ultimately, dating is a numbers game and there are many things that can increase your pool or increase your success rate. LL is just one of them and it's not a very optimized solution, so for anyone who is doing this for women, make sure you try everything else first (and there is a lot to try) especially if you are young. There are probably many other things you can improve in your life that have a more direct and immediate impact.

Personally I already have an optimized dating pipeline, but I don't want to just keep following the path of least resistance. I think LL can help push me to the next level.
This is exactly what I've been saying, and I'm glad that at least one person gets it. And if you truly believe that you've explored all other aspects in your life and height is the last thing left, and you just want to increase the quality of the girls you date, then yes, I recommend LL. You sound like you're in the same position I was in prior to LL, minus the wealth - and minus the long-term gf? I do think that being 5'10" would improve your dating life than if you were 5'7". At 5'10", it would be very hard to find a girl who will reject you at that height. At 5'7", I still think it's somewhat short and some girls would still reject you at that height. It wasn't until I past 5'7"-5'8" that I really felt like I wasn't short anymore.

But experiment before you do the LL. Change your dating profile to 5'10" and see if it improves your response rate, match quality, etc. Report back to me if it changes for the better or the worse or no change at all. I am really curious if someone would follow through with my advice and save themselves from the disappointment that would follow if they became 5'10" and their online dating life didn't change at all.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Bander72 on February 26, 2017, 02:12:42 PM
There's more to wanting to be taller than to get women. There is also self esteem issues.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on February 26, 2017, 10:24:48 PM
There's more to wanting to be taller than to get women. There is also self esteem issues.
@ belowthemean: extremely well said. Thats completely how I think and what my experience tell me.
If your height is not enough for a woman then everything is much much harder.
And I don't want to have tons of money to compensate for my lack of height. I don't want to compensate for anything, especially for something like height that it can't be changed with hard work.
After all, it is much easier to find 40-50k and do internal femur with a respectable doctor than trying to have million of dollars and still women, even if they are with you, many times dream of tall handsome man.
And at the end, I prefer to be rejected for not being rich enough than for not beimg tall enough. And most of the times, rarely a girl will reject you if she likes you and you are not rich (and just have a job with an average salary) while many times a girl will reject you if you are not tall enough, without taking into consideration how much money you have.

@ bander72: if you have many successes with women then definitely your self esteem will me much greater.
On the other hand, if you have problems with women, then even if you are ok in every other aspect of your life, your self esteem will hardly be good enough.
So, women play, at least for me, the biggest (not the only of course) role for my self esteem. And height plays a very significant role for women.
So, height on both cases help a lot your self esteem.

@ Doim it for me: I'm happy with your many successes with all these women but I can't really understand how you do it taking into consideration that you are asian (and without being racist or anything like that asians aren't the most preferable men for white women), your height is about the same as mine (5.9) and your bodybas you mentioned somewhere else is completely average.
Are your money that play the biggest role for all these successes? Because if thats the true reason, then 99% of all of us can't have so much money so we should find other ways to have so many successes in dating and if we improved almost everything we could and still have problems because we aren't tall enough, then LL is the only solution.

As I said before, I'd never like to attract women with my money (and I'm lucky that, even I have an above average income for my country, no woman I was with ever tried to take advantage of it).
I really want to get the girl with my appearance and my way of talking-character and not my money so even if I were rich I'd still consider LL to be above average height.
After all, it is much better to have a woman that totally like your appearance and respect you for your financial success than having a woman that likes your wealth because she feels protected but she fantasizes doing things with a tall ripped handsome man.  :P

So if you are both rich and tall with a generally good body, you are very very lucky.
But if I have to choose between them, I'd easily take the second. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 27, 2017, 09:14:15 AM
@ Doim it for me: I'm happy with your many successes with all these women but I can't really understand how you do it taking into consideration that you are asian (and without being racist or anything like that asians aren't the most preferable men for white women), your height is about the same as mine (5.9) and your bodybas you mentioned somewhere else is completely average.
Are your money that play the biggest role for all these successes? Because if thats the true reason, then 99% of all of us can't have so much money so we should find other ways to have so many successes in dating and if we improved almost everything we could and still have problems because we aren't tall enough, then LL is the only solution.

As I said before, I'd never like to attract women with my money (and I'm lucky that, even I have an above average income for my country, no woman I was with ever tried to take advantage of it).
I really want to get the girl with my appearance and my way of talking-character and not my money so even if I were rich I'd still consider LL to be above average height.
After all, it is much better to have a woman that totally like your appearance and respect you for your financial success than having a woman that likes your wealth because she feels protected but she fantasizes doing things with a tall ripped handsome man.  :P

So if you are both rich and tall with a generally good body, you are very very lucky.
But if I have to choose between them, I'd easily take the second.
The girl will fantasize about other guys anyway if she's the type who does that. How do I put this without sounding offensive... You are superficial, and a lot of mentally mature girls aren't. Don't assume that all girls are superficial and only care about looks.

As for the money thing, it's not the money that they're attracted to. These same girls wouldn't date a guy richer than me if that money was just passed down by their rich parents instead of self-earned. I know because some of the girls I spoke with said that they broke up with those type of guys, because those guys are very possessive and treated them like trophies instead of people.

What they're attracted to is that I'm a provider of fun, luxury, and a lifestyle. By this I mean, I travel a lot and have pics of me having a ton of fun. You could do the same thing as me. I don't pay much for my trips. Each trip is maybe $2000 or so. You could go on a lot of trips and take a lot of lifestyle pics with $50,000 or whatever the cost of LL surgery is nowadays. I can guarantee you that having those lifestyle pics would get better results in the dating profile than simply being taller.

So yes, I may be super rich. But my dating profile doesn't say how much I make or how much I have. Instead it just mentions that I have financial freedom and can afford to do whatever I want in terms of time and money. Then I also mention about how I help out in charities and what not. Girls always quote that part of my dating profile as the part they like the best. I also sprinkle jokes throughout my dating profile so that girls know that I'm funny - even though I stole those jokes from stand-up comics.

And finally during the dates, I talk about how I struggled with being poor, and then became self-made. Everyone likes to hear an underdog story about someone overcoming their bad situations. Girls gobble that crap up. Honestly, I could have only $100,000 to my name, and I'd have the same results. That's because my profile doesn't mention how much I have. It could be $100,000 or it could be $100,000,000. They don't know. All they see is a guy who goes on trips to Hawaii, Bali, and builds homes for homeless people - shoutout to Habitats for Humanity.

You don't know how many girls like the volunteer work pics more than the pics of me with a $1 million car. Girls don't care about the car. They want to know if you're generous and caring. That's because it will show how you will treat them if they were your wife. And girls like to be pampered. Sometimes I think that my expensive car collection puts girls off, because they think I spend too much money.

From what you wrote, it sounds like you and I are attracting different types of girls, though. For example, the girls I date don't go to bars and clubs. They are engineers or entrepreneurs. They're high class. So maybe what I wrote doesn't apply to you, since they're not the same type of girls.

So yea, so what if they fantasize about some tall, handsome dude? I fantasize about banging Rachel Cook. What's the difference? At the end of the day, I don't want to spend the day and night with Rachel Cook. I rather spend it with my long term girlfriend. sxx only lasts for a few minutes. While it's awesome to bang a hot chick, what about all the other hours that you have to spend with her? One of the girl I'm seeing now likes the same movies, TV shows, and video games that I do. And her idea of a great date is laying in bed, cuddling, eating, and playing the new Zelda game. I don't know many girls who would do that. It helps that she's a knock-out blue-eyed, 5'9" blonde girl working on a graduate medical degree, too. But ultimately, it's that her personality matches mine that makes us a great couple. She knows that I'm only 5'9", but she doesn't care. Her last bf was like 6'+ but with "no ambition" as she says. Guess who's she with? Me, not him.

Anyway, having said that, she probably wouldn't have dated me if I were 5'6". So I still recommend LL for girls if you're short and doing it to not get rejected by girls, because frankly, half the girls I'm talking to probably wouldn't have dated me at 5'6". And this blonde, blue-eyed girl happens to be part of that half that would have rejected me, and I would have missed out on the opportunity to date her. So yea, LL is great for that. You got no arguments there from me.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on February 27, 2017, 10:43:50 AM
I agree in most of these Doiniiforme.

But you keep mentioning online profiles and all these. But what about going out and meet new women? In these cases its only you and the women will judge completely from what they see, not from photos of your travels, your way of life, your wealthness or anything else. Just your looks and your character (after you meet their appearance criteria).

So, what you say may be true but only for online dating.
I had many successes with online dating too (not like what you mention with all these model looking girls to be honest but I still met a lot and many times good looking women) but now I care most of real life and to be able to pick uo girls under any circumstances.
And height is much important to this and I see it from my own experience because the once and only thing that many girls say to me about what they'd prefer to be different in my appearance is height. Never ever I have a negative comment about anything else, not maybe because I'm perfect but because girls give so much importance in height while on the other looks they are ok with even an average appearance. And except from height I have for sure a better than average appearance, so it is enough for the majority of girls out there.
But my height, which is the same as yours more or less, unfortunately is not enough for many women out there that even if they date you, they'd still think that you are good but if you were taller you'd be almost perfect.

So imo, we are not superficial that we don't want to be judged and many times rejected for something that we can't change physically. Girls are the shallow ones who give so much importance to something useless in the real life like height.
But that's the harsh truth so you can accept yourself and accept that your chances in dating will be always less because of that or change it and have the same social benefits as naturally tall people.
The choice is completely up to each of us and how we dream our life to be.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: jojo on February 27, 2017, 01:29:25 PM
how are you doing now ? do you walk well and go outside and have a normal day ? and did people og somebody from work say anyting ?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 27, 2017, 02:27:23 PM
I agree in most of these Doiniiforme.

But you keep mentioning online profiles and all these. But what about going out and meet new women? In these cases its only you and the women will judge completely from what they see, not from photos of your travels, your way of life, your wealthness or anything else. Just your looks and your character (after you meet their appearance criteria).

So, what you say may be true but only for online dating.
I had many successes with online dating too (not like what you mention with all these model looking girls to be honest but I still met a lot and many times good looking women) but now I care most of real life and to be able to pick uo girls under any circumstances.
And height is much important to this and I see it from my own experience because the once and only thing that many girls say to me about what they'd prefer to be different in my appearance is height. Never ever I have a negative comment about anything else, not maybe because I'm perfect but because girls give so much importance in height while on the other looks they are ok with even an average appearance. And except from height I have for sure a better than average appearance, so it is enough for the majority of girls out there.
But my height, which is the same as yours more or less, unfortunately is not enough for many women out there that even if they date you, they'd still think that you are good but if you were taller you'd be almost perfect.

So imo, we are not superficial that we don't want to be judged and many times rejected for something that we can't change physically. Girls are the shallow ones who give so much importance to something useless in the real life like height.
But that's the harsh truth so you can accept yourself and accept that your chances in dating will be always less because of that or change it and have the same social benefits as naturally tall people.
The choice is completely up to each of us and how we dream our life to be.
I do mostly online dating nowadays. I'd never done online dating before, so I tweaked and tweaked my online profile, showed it to a bunch of strangers for their opinion, until they said it was great. What's great about online dating is that I can talk to three or so girls at the same time, each not aware of each other, and get to know each one at the same time. I usually filter girls quickly based on details they gave (if they have kids, if they're divorced, etc.) and only message the really attractive ones with little visual baggage. If I did the same on the street, then it'd be like a lottery, because you have no idea what you're getting. So online dating is more efficient for me.

If I like what I hear, I quickly move them to meeting me. Usually I ask them to meet with me within the first conversation - which if I really like them, could last for hours. I usually tell them to tell me a secret that they've never told anyone before. This builds trust and a bond between you two. I have my own go-to "secret" that I pretend to tell nobody. But the truth is that I tell that story to every girl on the first date. I won't say on here what that story is, but it's a personal and true story, and it paints me as this caring and heroic guy - like along the lines of a firefighter jumping into a burning building to save a little girl.

Only pro to street pick-up vs online dating, is that you can see right away what you're getting in terms of looks. With online dating, especially if it's only a few online pics of her, then what she looks like in real life might not match her online pics. Sometimes this means that the real girl is prettier or less pretty. I admit that this is a problem, but since I'm mainly looking at 9s and 10s, then even if she's uglier than her online pics, she'd be a 7 or 8.

Street pick-up is actually pretty easy for me too. I drive a very expensive car and dress like I'm worth a million bucks - think GQ at night or something trendy. What's annoying about this, though, is that I get hit on by ghetto/thirsty girls all the time. But just about any girl would be willing to talk to me, because almost every girl admires a guy who's really successful. I admittedly wear 1" insole lifts with shoes that already have a 1" sole, so girls think I'm 5'10" or so. I think 5'10"-5'11" is already a pretty ideal height. Remember that Brad Pitt is only 5'11".

If all the girl says is that she wishes you were taller, then you should think of that as a compliment, because they can't think of anything else wrong with you. Are you like a really muscular guy? Because I imagine that if you have thick muscles, then you would look shorter proportionally. I'm a pretty skinny guy, so I look taller than I actually am. When I ask people how tall they think I am, they usually say 5'11".

And that goes back to what I said about Tom Cruise. I'm not 5'11", but people think I am. That's because I overpower their perception of me due to my personality. Would I rather be 5'11"? Of course. But I don't think the surgery is worth it in my opinion. I can't take another 6-12 months out of my life again. My time is super valuable to me. Plus, I have a bunch of model-looking girls lining up to date me at 5'9", so why bother going to 5'11" when no girl has rejected me at 5'9", expect for maybe one 5'11" girl? Anyway, that's my opinion.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on February 27, 2017, 02:53:45 PM
how are you doing now ? do you walk well and go outside and have a normal day ? and did people og somebody from work say anyting ?
I still walk like a penguin a bit, especially when I'm not paying attention to how I'm walking. I have a normal day. I can hike for 10 miles and feel okay. My stamina is crap compared to before LL. I am slowly building this back up. I don't work in an office, so no coworkers would comment. However my friends did notice that I'm taller now. I just say that the surgery made me taller by an inch. I usually lie about my surgery and say that it's because the bones in my legs needed to be straightened out or something. Then if they ask more questions, I just say that I don't feel comfortable talking about it, because it was a dark period in my life and I don't want to relive it. Usually they shut up after I say that.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AM
@DoingItForMe - responding to multiple posts and jumping in your conversation with Body Builder

I agree that increasing height by 3" in online dating should be pretty eye-opening for most people in that not much will change. You'll still be lost in a forest of men that women are cherry picking from. However, I'm currently in a relationship so I can't really do the test myself. Most of my dates came from meeting women IRL anyway, and 3" lifts are too obvious to wear. I do know that there are are spots where I could improve my online dating game aside from being taller, with lifestyle certainly being one of them. I am trying to take more exciting pictures when I'm out traveling and doing stuff in case I need it in the future! You mentioned to Body Builder that the cost of LL could easily be spent on non-LL things that could improve your dating profile. But if there are a bunch of pictures of you traveling to exotic places and living a lifestyle beyond your means, then that is what girls would expect when you are actually dating them. Is spending money in that way merely to enhance your dating profile any more real than doing LL?

Regarding attractiveness vs. personality, I have been with attractive girls only to realize a few weeks later that there's nothing there except the physical aspect. The chemical rush of the initial attraction can definitely blind you to other flaws such as a lackluster personality. We are human after all. But LL would definitely improve the odds of finding someone with both a good physical appearance and a good personality instead of having to sacrifice one for the other. You're right that looks fade over time, but that is not a reason to avoid maximizing the amount of time your partner has good looks, especially if you plan to be in it for the long haul. Personality can fluctuate over time too. Can you say that you're the same person as you were ten years ago as much as you can say you looked the same? If you have enough options to be considering a 8 in looks and 10 in personality vs a 10 in looks and 8 in personality.. well I think you're doing pretty good either way. Plus personality is subjective to an extent and your 8 might be someone else's 10. Then again, so are looks lol.

Regarding the maturity of women (and defining mature as seeking out financial stability, etc over looks, height, etc.) I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Sure, the level of maturity varies from woman to woman, but if you observe carefully you should notice that quite a few women become "mature" right around the time they've realized that they can't capitalize on their looks forever. At that point they decide they want to settle down and find a stable provider type, but is that really them maturing or has their hand simply been forced? How do you know if the "maturity" is authentic or if they just don't think they can get that tall and handsome guy anymore? These mature women also happen to be the ones with quite a lot of baggage from the past, whether it's kids or the guy that got away. Yes, you can say that not all girls are like this, and some of them want a decent guy at a younger age when they still have plenty of options. These girls exist, but a lot of them get snatched up in college and you won't ever get a chance to meet them. The rest that are still single after they start working are rare, but once you add in a minimum threshold of attractiveness... well now we're talking exceedingly rare. Plus every other guy from age 18 to 60 is going after them too! The demand greatly exceeds the supply, so every advantage helps.. not all of us are millionaires haha! I really hope that these are the types of girls that are on your rich guy dating sites because in the general public I think it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Also regarding those sites I would also say to watch out for adverse selection. Consider that girls on rich guy dating sites are obviously going to say they prefer stability over looks. How many are going to like a picture of you with a million dollar car? Wouldn't that just arouse the guy's suspicion? How do you know that the same girls that say they like being pampered on those sites don't also have a Tinder profile and match every guy with a shirtless six pack picture? I guess what I'm trying to say is that women liking guys for either their looks or as a provider is not so black and white. I think most women would want both, but realistically she needs to consider what she brings to the table and then plays her cards in the way that benefits herself the most.

Also on your other note, I have been in a long and serious relationship before. I would say on top of all the passive short guy hate accumulated over time, a lot of the guys on this site have a tipping point that brought them to LL.. usually in the form of a girl. Well this girl is the one who pushed me there. I dated her toward the end of college and during the first few years out of school. Everything was great at first - she was my ideal type both physically and intellectually, so I thought she was the one. However, long story short by mentally settling down I allowed my ambition to be reduced, which ultimately distanced her. Before we broke up she cheated on me with a guy who happened to be a lot taller. I was pretty stupid at the time and tried to reconcile things with her, which made her even more unhappy. I acted desperate and clingy then and she said a lot of excessively terrible and hurtful things regarding my height just to push me away. I think she figured out that it was a way to push my buttons. Looking back I don't think the primary reason she dumped me is because of my height, but at the time I was so certain that it was. She was never pleased about my height but obviously she was okay with it at some point while we were dating. All of the stuff she said about my height definitely had a psychological effect though. It drove me to read more about height and eventually learn about LL.

Ultimately I got over her and with that my height neurosis mostly went away, but just knowing about the existence of LL is something that can never go away. I don't think about LL nearly as much as I used to; lately it's more of an occasional thing when I get a reminder from something I hear.. usually a girl mentioning height. This has happened way too many times - a girl I am on a date with mentions a past boyfriend's height (over 6' of course) or asks me how tall I am when we're standing next to each other. I think it's some kind of power play which I am decent at deflecting since it rarely stops me from scoring, but it's still a downer!

I just want to be average height and not feel bad when people are talking about short guys whether directly to me or as a general topic of conversation. I want to answer what my height is without feeling challenged or thinking about LL. Maybe then I will never think about height ever again. I think that's kind of what you've experienced, minus our posts on your diary dragging you back to the forum :P
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on February 28, 2017, 12:30:26 AM
online dating is not everything... Just like bars and clubs are not everything. There are infinite amount of ways to know someone.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: jojo on February 28, 2017, 12:56:53 AM
okay
for how long does the docters exspekt you to walk like that ?

would you ever tell your wife ?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yyes on February 28, 2017, 01:13:00 AM
@belowthemean

At what height does height stop being an issue in your opinion?

Also very well written post. Alot of what you said is so true
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Megamuffin on February 28, 2017, 11:03:01 PM
Do you regret the amount you lengthened by?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 01:06:50 PM
I tried setting my height from 5'8" to 6'1" in online dating incidentally.

I actually am getting less hits and views... and no messages.

It could be for a whole bunch of reasons, probably because they think I'm lying. But I definitely expected to see more new views, because of how the search parameters are set.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 682 on March 01, 2017, 04:08:45 PM
5'8" to 6'1" is an incredible leap and lands into the 'desired' zone for most. I believe, as you said that there are other reasons for decreased hits.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 05:46:54 PM
On online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).

Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on March 01, 2017, 08:21:59 PM
On online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).

Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...

Of course the pretty face is what ropes them in. This whole "Being tall means you can be average or below average in looks and get ton of girls" is completely not related to reality
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 08:59:44 PM
I mean, obviously what I said was tongue-in-cheek, (my face is OK but not especially attractive for example) but yes. The way people place so much importance on height for attraction in this forum is really unhealthy... especially self-confidence, a sharp mind, and a sense of humour are the most important imo
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 682 on March 01, 2017, 10:54:22 PM
On online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).

Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...

Your experience is that in online dating, the most superficial and judgmental of all 'dating' grounds the vast majority of women want a guy ranges from 2 inches taller to 2 inches shorter than themselves, which would be between 5'0" and 5'6" most of the time which is considered objectively short over somebody who is 6"+ in height? This seems to go against the general consensus and others experience.

I do agree that an attractive face is more important than height outside of extremes.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 01, 2017, 11:23:15 PM
I tried setting my height from 5'8" to 6'1" in online dating incidentally.

I actually am getting less hits and views... and no messages.

It could be for a whole bunch of reasons, probably because they think I'm lying. But I definitely expected to see more new views, because of how the search parameters are set.
Of course the reasons are other (I don't know them because I don't care much for online dating) and not the height.

Almost all women would prefer a 6.1ft (maybe the ideal height for a man imo) over a 5.8 ft guy if they were about the same in every other aspect and even the 5.8 ft guy was more handsome imo.

So you can't really believe that the same guy would have had less hits if he set his height at 6.1 in dating sites compared to 5.8. I can reassure you that at the first occasion (6.1 height) he would easily had 3-5 times more women's replies.
And if the guy's height was something like 5.5-5.6, the replies from women would have been maybe less than the fingers of my hand.
 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on March 02, 2017, 12:12:44 AM
To clarify, I meant that the vast majority either look for a guy around their height or at least a little taller at minimum. Most don't look for a shorter guy but there are a few profiles- not an insignificant amount- that specify a couple of inches shorter is OK.

Oh, yeah, height is obviously an attractive quality, especially on online dating which is a bit like a meat market for 90% of the people using it. It's just that I don't think women seem to be setting particularly strict height parameters in their searches (which is easily done- I actually always do it, call me a hypocrite lol) because I'm literally having about the same numbers of views. I mean it doesn't list height until you actually click on the profile, only display profiles with the parameters you search, and I am saying I am not even getting any more views despite that.

No, they normally don't say they wouldn't mind a guy a bit shorter but it does happen often enough on the profiles with height preferences listed (actually most of the ones I look at for some reason don't have them). I guess it depends on the individual and it's just my own experience and everything. But most seem to have on their profiles just a bit above their height to around 8 inches/ a foot above their height. (Like a 5'4" girl I looked at who listed her height preference 5'4" to 6'4"). I guess that means most won't look at a man shorter than them but could like a guy their own height.

I don't like online dating much at all either, actually. It's pretty gross in a lot of ways and there are a lot of weird women on there lol. I only signed up because my friend made me...
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Jack1066 on March 02, 2017, 12:19:19 AM
They collected data on okcupid or eharmony or one of these dating/hook up sites and found that the response rate (and unsolicited messages rate) for "short" and "tall" men (like 6'1 + or 5'6 - ) was something like 30% different as far as I remember. I mean yeah that's a substantial difference but not 3 or 5 times like you say. I'll look it up again and see what the statistics were:

Here it is https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2#.rdefb5k94

And yes 682, probably below the 10th or 5th percentile is pretty bad. That said I really think confidence also trumps an attractive face, unless your face is very good. Men have it pretty easy in that sense imo.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 02, 2017, 04:49:29 AM
@DoingItForMe - responding to multiple posts and jumping in your conversation with Body Builder

I agree that increasing height by 3" in online dating should be pretty eye-opening for most people in that not much will change. You'll still be lost in a forest of men that women are cherry picking from. However, I'm currently in a relationship so I can't really do the test myself. Most of my dates came from meeting women IRL anyway, and 3" lifts are too obvious to wear. I do know that there are are spots where I could improve my online dating game aside from being taller, with lifestyle certainly being one of them. I am trying to take more exciting pictures when I'm out traveling and doing stuff in case I need it in the future! You mentioned to Body Builder that the cost of LL could easily be spent on non-LL things that could improve your dating profile. But if there are a bunch of pictures of you traveling to exotic places and living a lifestyle beyond your means, then that is what girls would expect when you are actually dating them. Is spending money in that way merely to enhance your dating profile any more real than doing LL?
I've spent maybe $10,000 on trips in the past year or so. If LL was $50,000, I'd have enough for another 4 years of trips. $10,000 is enough trips to take great pics. You only have 5 profile pics anyway. 5 trips. $10,000. Done deal. But if you don't want to spend $10,000, then do volunteering pics. I have pics of me doing charity work. That gets a lot of comments and likes, too.

Regarding attractiveness vs. personality, I have been with attractive girls only to realize a few weeks later that there's nothing there except the physical aspect. The chemical rush of the initial attraction can definitely blind you to other flaws such as a lackluster personality. We are human after all. But LL would definitely improve the odds of finding someone with both a good physical appearance and a good personality instead of having to sacrifice one for the other. You're right that looks fade over time, but that is not a reason to avoid maximizing the amount of time your partner has good looks, especially if you plan to be in it for the long haul. Personality can fluctuate over time too. Can you say that you're the same person as you were ten years ago as much as you can say you looked the same? If you have enough options to be considering a 8 in looks and 10 in personality vs a 10 in looks and 8 in personality.. well I think you're doing pretty good either way. Plus personality is subjective to an extent and your 8 might be someone else's 10. Then again, so are looks lol.
Honestly, when girls tell me why they date me. It's not because of my looks or my height. It's because they find me intelligent and funny and caring. Then you might say, "That's BS, if you were 5'6", she wouldn't date you." Well guess what guys? I went ahead and asked the 5'9" blonde/blue-eyed bombshell who I'm seeing if she would date me if I was 3" shorter. I was expecting her to say, "Probably not." or lie and say, "Yes, of course." Her response? "I actually dated a 5'6" guy for a while. I also dated a 6'1" guy for a while, too." Then I asked her if his height bothered her, and she said, "That 5'6" guy made me feel more secure because he was muscular. The 6'1" guy was really skinny, so it felt like I was protecting him instead of him protecting me."

Regarding the maturity of women (and defining mature as seeking out financial stability, etc over looks, height, etc.) I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Sure, the level of maturity varies from woman to woman, but if you observe carefully you should notice that quite a few women become "mature" right around the time they've realized that they can't capitalize on their looks forever. At that point they decide they want to settle down and find a stable provider type, but is that really them maturing or has their hand simply been forced? How do you know if the "maturity" is authentic or if they just don't think they can get that tall and handsome guy anymore?
Because I've dated 18 year olds who thought this way before, and cared more about stability than looks. She said that she cared more about feeling secure than dating a good-looking loser. She said she dates older guys because of this reason. It's subjective to say whether or not this means that the girl is mature. But it's definitely differs from girl to girl. Some of you guys reject these girls by calling them gold diggers. But gold digging has various degrees. Some don't want your money. They just don't want a loser boyfriend who has no money, or spent all his savings on cosmetic surgery.

These mature women also happen to be the ones with quite a lot of baggage from the past, whether it's kids or the guy that got away. Yes, you can say that not all girls are like this, and some of them want a decent guy at a younger age when they still have plenty of options. These girls exist, but a lot of them get snatched up in college and you won't ever get a chance to meet them. The rest that are still single after they start working are rare, but once you add in a minimum threshold of attractiveness... well now we're talking exceedingly rare. Plus every other guy from age 18 to 60 is going after them too! The demand greatly exceeds the supply, so every advantage helps.. not all of us are millionaires haha! I really hope that these are the types of girls that are on your rich guy dating sites because in the general public I think it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Also regarding those sites I would also say to watch out for adverse selection. Consider that girls on rich guy dating sites are obviously going to say they prefer stability over looks. How many are going to like a picture of you with a million dollar car? Wouldn't that just arouse the guy's suspicion? How do you know that the same girls that say they like being pampered on those sites don't also have a Tinder profile and match every guy with a shirtless six pack picture? I guess what I'm trying to say is that women liking guys for either their looks or as a provider is not so black and white. I think most women would want both, but realistically she needs to consider what she brings to the table and then plays her cards in the way that benefits herself the most.
Because I speak with these girls. And you're right, they could be matching on Tinder and screwing with a 6-pack guy. Who knows? I actually do know a few girls who try to have a sugar daddy while screwing a cute young boyfriend as well. But you can sort of figure out which girl is crazy by speaking with them and seeing how often they check their phone and whether or not they date you on Valentine's Day, and etc. But the girl I've been sleeping with now is slim blonde, blue-eyed 5'8" (not the same as the 5'9" girl I'm talking to as well), under 25, speaks 4 languages, plays video games, and comes from a wealthy family. She told me that she dates older men mainly because younger guys are stupid, immature, and/or inexperienced. I'm significantly older than her, and yet she has never asked me about my finances. She pays for her own stuff. And when she's dating me, she never checks her phone. You think maybe it's rare, but honestly, I've been talking to at least 3 other girls who are potentially the same or better. Maybe I'm just really lucky and attract these girls. Guess which picture attracted the girl? Nope, not the cars and stuff, because she's wealthy herself. The charity photos did.

Also on your other note, I have been in a long and serious relationship before. I would say on top of all the passive short guy hate accumulated over time, a lot of the guys on this site have a tipping point that brought them to LL.. usually in the form of a girl. Well this girl is the one who pushed me there. I dated her toward the end of college and during the first few years out of school. Everything was great at first - she was my ideal type both physically and intellectually, so I thought she was the one. However, long story short by mentally settling down I allowed my ambition to be reduced, which ultimately distanced her. Before we broke up she cheated on me with a guy who happened to be a lot taller. I was pretty stupid at the time and tried to reconcile things with her, which made her even more unhappy. I acted desperate and clingy then and she said a lot of excessively terrible and hurtful things regarding my height just to push me away. I think she figured out that it was a way to push my buttons. Looking back I don't think the primary reason she dumped me is because of my height, but at the time I was so certain that it was. She was never pleased about my height but obviously she was okay with it at some point while we were dating. All of the stuff she said about my height definitely had a psychological effect though. It drove me to read more about height and eventually learn about LL.

Ultimately I got over her and with that my height neurosis mostly went away, but just knowing about the existence of LL is something that can never go away. I don't think about LL nearly as much as I used to; lately it's more of an occasional thing when I get a reminder from something I hear.. usually a girl mentioning height. This has happened way too many times - a girl I am on a date with mentions a past boyfriend's height (over 6' of course) or asks me how tall I am when we're standing next to each other. I think it's some kind of power play which I am decent at deflecting since it rarely stops me from scoring, but it's still a downer!

I just want to be average height and not feel bad when people are talking about short guys whether directly to me or as a general topic of conversation. I want to answer what my height is without feeling challenged or thinking about LL. Maybe then I will never think about height ever again. I think that's kind of what you've experienced, minus our posts on your diary dragging you back to the forum :P
Like I said, I think it'll improve your dating life. But just not like by a lot. It'll give you access to taller girls, but I find shorter girls to be just as awesome as the taller ones. So there's this other girl, brunette, stunning 5'9" who I've been seeing as well. I asked her if me being 5'9" would bother her, because she can't wear heels. She said, no, because she will still continue wearing heels - making her 6'. Then she asked if it'd bother me. I said confidently, "No, not at all. I'm more than just my height." She agreed, and that was that. Some girls simply don't care about the height stuff. Actually, most of the girls who I like don't care much about height. And they're all pretty mature girls, even though their age range is only from 20-28 years old. The ones who write like "6 foot+ guys only" also tend to have pretty ditzy written profiles. So, yes, I do find that maybe some guys on here are just chasing after the wrong type of girls.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 02, 2017, 05:20:58 AM
Do you regret the amount you lengthened by?
No. I don't have pain, and even though I don't walk normally now, it doesn't affect me much. Girls still date me, so I don't care.

okay
for how long does the docters exspekt you to walk like that ?

would you ever tell your wife ?
Paley has no clue. It probably goes away if I take the rods out. The screw heads on the rods rub against my flesh, so it trains me to walk a certain way to avoid pain. I think if the rods are out, then I can untrain myself. I'd never tell my wife. After how my long-term gf treated me and broke up with me after LL surgery, I decided to never tell anyone ever again.

I tried setting my height from 5'8" to 6'1" in online dating incidentally.

I actually am getting less hits and views... and no messages.

It could be for a whole bunch of reasons, probably because they think I'm lying. But I definitely expected to see more new views, because of how the search parameters are set.
Yup, if more potential LLs did this, maybe they'll consider twice about doing this surgery, because they'll see that girls aren't like swarming them after being 6', like they imagined. Instead, me being wealthy and showing fun/lifestyle on my profile made girls swarm my profile.

They collected data on okcupid or eharmony or one of these dating/hook up sites and found that the response rate (and unsolicited messages rate) for "short" and "tall" men (like 6'1 + or 5'6 - ) was something like 30% different as far as I remember. I mean yeah that's a substantial difference but not 3 or 5 times like you say. I'll look it up again and see what the statistics were:

Here it is https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2#.rdefb5k94

And yes 682, probably below the 10th or 5th percentile is pretty bad. That said I really think confidence also trumps an attractive face, unless your face is very good. Men have it pretty easy in that sense imo.
That's funny. If you look at the link you posted, you can scroll down and see that people who make 100k+ get significantly more messages than those who are poor. This is what I've been saying. Want to attract girls? Make more money. When people cry to me and say that they can't be rich because they come from a poor family, it's funny because I came from a poor family. More like they can't because they don't try hard enough or smart enough. The second part is important, too. Read books on how other wealthy people did it. They think differently from normal people. I have a few books to recommend too if you guys PM me for those books. I'm not going to advertise books on here.

On online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).

Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...
I have the same experience. Mostly they want same height or over, and that's it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: 1683131665 on March 04, 2017, 04:27:09 AM
Hi DoingItForMe
Please tell me how much money you spent。
thx
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: BelowTheMean on March 07, 2017, 12:40:12 AM
@belowthemean

At what height does height stop being an issue in your opinion?

Also very well written post. Alot of what you said is so true

The answer to your question is pretty subjective so I don't think there's a single correct answer. That it's subjective may even be why LL fixes height dysphoria to an extent. Personally I think 5'9" is the threshold height for an Asian guy in the US. While you won't stand out for your height and won't get any direct benefits from being tall, you shouldn't get any of the drawbacks from being short either. It also helps that you'd be taller than almost all women barefoot, and equal to or taller than most women in heels. I don't think I would consider getting height surgery if I was 5'9", and I have friends who are 5'7" or 5'8" who are perfectly okay with their heights. However I wouldn't be able to say what I think is a good height for a guy of any other race or living in any other country because I have no experience there.

I've spent maybe $10,000 on trips in the past year or so. If LL was $50,000, I'd have enough for another 4 years of trips. $10,000 is enough trips to take great pics. You only have 5 profile pics anyway. 5 trips. $10,000. Done deal. But if you don't want to spend $10,000, then do volunteering pics. I have pics of me doing charity work. That gets a lot of comments and likes, too.
Honestly, when girls tell me why they date me. It's not because of my looks or my height. It's because they find me intelligent and funny and caring. Then you might say, "That's BS, if you were 5'6", she wouldn't date you." Well guess what guys? I went ahead and asked the 5'9" blonde/blue-eyed bombshell who I'm seeing if she would date me if I was 3" shorter. I was expecting her to say, "Probably not." or lie and say, "Yes, of course." Her response? "I actually dated a 5'6" guy for a while. I also dated a 6'1" guy for a while, too." Then I asked her if his height bothered her, and she said, "That 5'6" guy made me feel more secure because he was muscular. The 6'1" guy was really skinny, so it felt like I was protecting him instead of him protecting me."
Because I've dated 18 year olds who thought this way before, and cared more about stability than looks. She said that she cared more about feeling secure than dating a good-looking loser. She said she dates older guys because of this reason. It's subjective to say whether or not this means that the girl is mature. But it's definitely differs from girl to girl. Some of you guys reject these girls by calling them gold diggers. But gold digging has various degrees. Some don't want your money. They just don't want a loser boyfriend who has no money, or spent all his savings on cosmetic surgery.
Because I speak with these girls. And you're right, they could be matching on Tinder and screwing with a 6-pack guy. Who knows? I actually do know a few girls who try to have a sugar daddy while screwing a cute young boyfriend as well. But you can sort of figure out which girl is crazy by speaking with them and seeing how often they check their phone and whether or not they date you on Valentine's Day, and etc. But the girl I've been sleeping with now is slim blonde, blue-eyed 5'8" (not the same as the 5'9" girl I'm talking to as well), under 25, speaks 4 languages, plays video games, and comes from a wealthy family. She told me that she dates older men mainly because younger guys are stupid, immature, and/or inexperienced. I'm significantly older than her, and yet she has never asked me about my finances. She pays for her own stuff. And when she's dating me, she never checks her phone. You think maybe it's rare, but honestly, I've been talking to at least 3 other girls who are potentially the same or better. Maybe I'm just really lucky and attract these girls. Guess which picture attracted the girl? Nope, not the cars and stuff, because she's wealthy herself. The charity photos did.
Like I said, I think it'll improve your dating life. But just not like by a lot. It'll give you access to taller girls, but I find shorter girls to be just as awesome as the taller ones. So there's this other girl, brunette, stunning 5'9" who I've been seeing as well. I asked her if me being 5'9" would bother her, because she can't wear heels. She said, no, because she will still continue wearing heels - making her 6'. Then she asked if it'd bother me. I said confidently, "No, not at all. I'm more than just my height." She agreed, and that was that. Some girls simply don't care about the height stuff. Actually, most of the girls who I like don't care much about height. And they're all pretty mature girls, even though their age range is only from 20-28 years old. The ones who write like "6 foot+ guys only" also tend to have pretty ditzy written profiles. So, yes, I do find that maybe some guys on here are just chasing after the wrong type of girls.

After reading through this, I think our disagreement stems from you trusting what women say a lot more than I do. I believe in their actions much more than their words, and I've seen plenty of girls who appear kind on the surface do some terrible things. You can't always take everything at face value. Maybe it's due to the cynicism from my past experiences, but I think that women (really, all people) tend to say what they think the other person wants to hear, especially if they are incentivized to do so. I also think how a woman feels about a man influences what she thinks about that man. For example, if a woman feels attracted to a man, she'll also think that he's taller and more masculine and vice versa. Because of this, a lot of guys might hear something like "you're too short for me" when the girl really just means "I'm not attracted to you in general." This may be part of the reason why there are many guys here obsessed about height when changing it may not even be a huge impact to dating. It paints a target onto something out of your control and lets you blame it for your failures rather than being introspective.

That being said, I know there are good girls out there...or at least girls that are more capable of good than bad. At least that's what I want to believe, and why I still try. However I think if you add in the limitation that these girls must also be physically attractive, then in my personal experience they are quite rare. The fact that you meet these kinds of girls in abundance when I hardly meet any certainly signifies to me that our differences are much greater than merely two inches of height. Of course I've always understood that height is only a tiny piece of attraction, yet I've let myself obsess over it for so long. Clearly there is still another level that I can push myself to without undergoing cosmetic surgery. That is of course, greatly increasing my wealth. Maybe the types of girls that you are dating are inaccessible to me otherwise.

Don't worry, I won't replace one compulsion with another. I understand that the money itself is not what we want girls to be attracted to, but rather the type of lifestyle that a wealthy person is able to have and the mindset of such a person. Having the portfolio to never need to rely on a job for income, knowing I had the money and freedom to travel and do things on a whim, and having the power to change people's lives are just a few of the qualities that are attractive to women and produce confidence in a guy on another level. These things simply can't be faked with "game", and pretending they don't matter won't make my dating life any better. I understand the necessity of working for myself to become rich, but my life and job have always been comfortable enough to to just go with the flow. Rather than pushing myself in my free time, I've let side projects fizzle and various opportunities slip away. Today that changes. I'm going to knock LL down a few pegs on my priority list and upgrade growing a business to the very top.

So thank you for responding to my posts, DIFM.. it has given me a lot to process. I'd like to think I'm fairly level-headed about the whole LL thing. I have the goal of financial independence and have always been a saver, so I actually do have the assets to pay for femurs with Paley in cash. However, the cost is too big a percentage of my current net worth, and I haven't figured out the best way to take a break from my career, so I never got close to pulling the trigger. I know there are definitely some guys on this forum that would spend all their savings to get the surgery, but I'm not one of them. I will be taking an indefinite break from the forum. While I can never close Pandora's Box, maybe I'll reach the point where I'm just okay with being 5'7". If not, I'll be back... hopefully after I have achieved the aforementioned level of financial success and tried out the corresponding dating life.

Best of luck on your bone growth and hopefully taking the rods out will fix your gait!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 07, 2017, 01:52:12 AM
So the point of D.i.f.m. is to don't do LL to attract women but be rich to attract women?
I think that a woman who wants to be with you (even if she is not completely a gold digger but needs some kind of safety) is much more shallow compared to a woman who is attracted by relatively tall men and also she is less desirable for me because she needs a man and his money to feel safe and isn't capable enough to make her own money and be with a man that truly likes for what he is and not how much he earns.

Furthermore, I don't know from what family you are difm but 99% of people who come from poor families can't become millionaires unless they win the lottery.
And I really don't want to be a millionaire, first of all because I don't believe that money bring happiness and furthermore because I hate social unequalities and if there are millionaires there are on the opposite million poor people and thats completely unfair.

And finally, being rich doesn't mean that you are attractive too. And I don't want to be with a very hot woman if I'm not attractive too but I only have much money because I'll never know if she would like me if I didn't have all these money. And most of the times she wouldn't have been with me if I wasn't wealthy but with an another rich man.
Amd after all, it is always possible to lose your money but you won't lose your good appearance if you take care of yourself and don't have any bad accident (in that case I don't think that you would care much about women anyway).

So, if someone has enough money to don't live miserable he is completely ok and don't have to be a millionaire to be with good looking women.
Millionaires attract most of the times gold diggers or insecure women, on the other hand attractive men with a moderate income can attract most of the times any women they want if they have some good social skills and good chemistry with each of these women.
And as I said before, and most of surveys agree with me, height with a built (not necessarily muscular) body is the number one appearance factor for a man.
So I truly believe that a successful LL and a good appearance will bring you much more happiness than being an unattractive or at most average attractive man who have women most of the times due to his money.

Difm I'm not refering to you of course as I don't know you, I hope you don't misumderstand me.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 07, 2017, 08:05:25 PM
So thank you for responding to my posts, DIFM.. it has given me a lot to process. I'd like to think I'm fairly level-headed about the whole LL thing. I have the goal of financial independence and have always been a saver, so I actually do have the assets to pay for femurs with Paley in cash. However, the cost is too big a percentage of my current net worth, and I haven't figured out the best way to take a break from my career, so I never got close to pulling the trigger. I know there are definitely some guys on this forum that would spend all their savings to get the surgery, but I'm not one of them. I will be taking an indefinite break from the forum. While I can never close Pandora's Box, maybe I'll reach the point where I'm just okay with being 5'7". If not, I'll be back... hopefully after I have achieved the aforementioned level of financial success and tried out the corresponding dating life.

Best of luck on your bone growth and hopefully taking the rods out will fix your gait!
Yup, that's a very pragmatic response, and I agreed with everything you said. I think you're better off without the surgery, and instead focus making money. Half the girls I've been dating have been at or under 5'7", and they're really great girls, too. So it's not like you're screwed at 5'7".

And yes, I do think that I'm dating some pretty out-of-my-league girls. For example, this 20-year-old Colombian model and I have been talking to each other lately on Instagram, and she has like 100k followers on Instagram. I'm pretty sure that she's not just going to talk to some regular dude. I haven't reached that status where I can talk to the Instagram models who have 1 million+ followers, but I don't think that I'll ever reach there, because I'm not white, nor a male model/athlete/singer. But working on my body is the last step for me to reach the "perfect male" status in my opinion. I think once I get a six-pack, it's pretty much game over. But at the same time, I'm pretty happy with the girls I've been pulling in anyway. So it's not like I'm unhappy with myself until I get a six-pack. I'm not going to trade my height dysphoria with a six-pack dysphoria. I'm pretty happy with life in general right now. I just hope you guys can reach that point, too. And yes, being richer is the key component here, not being taller.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 07, 2017, 08:56:10 PM
Your reasoning for not being a millionaire is flawed. Say for example, you are a farmer. Pretend that you can grow 1 million crops and make a million dollars for selling them. But your logic is saying that you don't want to grow a million crops because other people are poor and can't grow a million crops. So instead you grow less. You just denied 1 million meals from being grown. Wouldn't it be more logical and beneficial to society if you were more productive with your time and resources instead of wasting it away on vanity and getting laid by hot girls?

The more logical thing to do is to create a product that helps people. And if you think social inequality is bad, then become rich and then redistribute your wealth so that poor people get more money. Instead, your logic is saying that you won't try because the system is screwed. But how does that help fix the system? Meanwhile, I'm running charities, and putting poor people through college and actually trying to bridge the gap between the poor and the rich.

Anyway, to each their own I guess. I can't tell you how to live your life.

And as I said before, and most of surveys agree with me, height with a built (not necessarily muscular) body is the number one appearance factor for a man.
So I truly believe that a successful LL and a good appearance will bring you much more happiness than being an unattractive or at most average attractive man who have women most of the times due to his money.

Difm I'm not refering to you of course as I don't know you, I hope you don't misumderstand me.
Yes, but surveys also show that while men prefer looks as a main factor for female attractiveness, women prefer a guy's status (social, financial, stability, etc.) as more important than looks. So while you think that girls just want to date guys who are good looking based on your view on what is attractive, it doesn't mean that every girl just cares about a guy's looks. I don't know how old you are. Perhaps you're on the younger side and it's true that teenage girls are pretty superficial and don't care about money until they're older. But I know that the girls I'm dating who are in their 20s tend to care about a guy's status than their looks. And it's true that I'm attracting a lot of gold diggers and insecure girls. But that doesn't mean that I have to date them. I'm also attracting high-quality women, too. And those are the ones who I take out on dates or respond to. There's no downfall for being rich, is what I'm saying.

Anyway, I think we're just attracted to two different types of girls. I'm attracted to girls who care about who I am and what I can provide for them. You're attracted to girls who are attracted to how you look. So, I don't disagree with you. Maybe what you said works better for you and the girls you're trying to attract. I'm chasing after a different type of girl. Doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong, and doesn't mean that I'm wrong and you're right. We just have different tastes in women.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 07, 2017, 11:51:45 PM
Difm, what matters isn't if I want or not to be rich but that 99,9% of people can't be millionaires even if they really want to (I'm not one of them but even if I were I know that I'll never become a millionaire through hard work).
Maybe in USA where you live people have more chances to become rich but it is the exception.

So it is a little funny and unfair to compare becoming a millionaire (and still short because we are talking about how short men could have better chances with women) to doing LL because the second is much more possible for the majority of men.
And I truly believe that the majority of women could be attracted from an attractive and with a good height man with a good character than a short or generally less than average in attractiveness man with much money and a good character too.

Women, especially in our days, really care for a man's appearance and adding a good character and an average job I think we have a man that most of the women would like for a pair.

Personally, I don't have a good character with most of the women because most of them doesn't worth it. That's what my experience told me and I truly think that women are less capable to have real and deep feelings for their mate than men.
Also, being really attractive make many insecure women to not date you because they want to feel superior in appearance from her men but I don't really care.
I just want to don't be less than average in anything in my appearance and thats why I want another one LL surgery.
And when I get there and become 5.11 with (I hope) the body I have now, then I'd truly believe that the vast majority of women won't reject me for appearance reasons.
And then I'll see if my moderate income plays a role for not having the women I want. I truly believe it won't matter as you don't think that a good appearance for a man matters so much, so we'll see who is the right one.

Btw I am not so young. I am 28 years old. I think we have about the same age.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 08, 2017, 01:15:52 AM
But why do you care if one or two girls reject you for your height at 5'9" when there are plenty of high quality girls who would date a guy who's 5'9"? I mean, I'm 5'9", and girls are still dating me. Maybe I got rejected once or twice for my height because the girl was 5'11", but that's rare. Most of the girls were 5'9" and below. I think only 2 girls out of the 100s I spoke to were taller than 5'9". You can only marry one girl anyway, so why are you trying to please every girl when you only need to please just one special girl who likes you at 5'9"? This is where I don't really understand why you think you need to be 5'11" to be happy.

I personally would take the money for surgery and invest it in stocks. My stocks have been doubling in value every 5 years or so. If I put $100k into stocks today, it'd be $200k in 5 years, $400k in 10 years, and about $1 million in less than 25 years. And you said it's impossible to be a millionaire? And that's assuming that you only have 100k and never make anymore money. Realistically, you should keep contributing a portion of your salary to your investments and you could easily become a millionaire by the time you retire.

Also, you don't have to be a millionaire to appear rich to girls. Just having a better than average job is good enough. That OKcupid website said that girls responded better to guys who just make 100k a year or more vs those who make less. In my dating experience, girls like guys who are ambitious and strive for success and provide for the family.

I know you don't see it that way, but I think you're just meeting a different type of girl than I am, that's all.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: doomsday on March 08, 2017, 02:25:50 AM
Index fund tracking S&P500? :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 08, 2017, 02:31:52 AM
It has not only to do if you get rejected only for your height at 5.9. It is that our height is not preferable compared to a taller than average man.
That is not the same between a 6ft and a 6.2 ft height men. The second one is more preferable for many women but the first one will be preferable for many women too. So the added height makes no true benefit.
On the other hand, no women would prefer a 5.9 man compared to a 5.11 one, if they are about the same in every other aspect and some women would reject the 5.9 guy only for his height. I used to be ok with that idea, especially when I first got LL and was excited with my new height but now I am not.
I just can't stand to get rejected or just have some kind of drawback for something that I can't change even if I try hard.
And thats why I want another one LL, to have no obvious drawback in my appearance.

And no my friend, I've written it before but I'll write it again, not only the taller girls would reject a man at our height but even the average height ones. I've been with a 5.7 girl when I was 5.65 (before LL) who didn't have any problem with my height and now that I'm 5.9 I've been told many times from 5.4-5.6 girls that I'm on the short side although I'm not short and I would have been ideal if I were 2 inches more.
And some women, although not completely openly, they rejected me for my height and I know it.

So if you are less than average in height, you have a drawback which gets bigger the shorter you are and that hasn't to do with the women's height. All the women prefer taller than average men, not only the tall ones.

And I don't want to please women, I want to have the choice to have the woman I want without any (major at least) physical drawback make me been rejected and lose this opportunity from something that I can't change psysically.
So at the end, I'm doing it to please myself, not women.

Finally, I don't think that we meet necessarily different types of women.
The real difference between us is that I want these women to get attracted to me by my appearance and then my character while you give less significance to your appearance and you try to get these women with your success and your character too of course.
So, we choose different paths to get women and feel good with ourselves.
The good thing for you is that you are completely happy with yourself while I want another LL to feel completely fulfilled and good with me.
But I know that when I get there, I'd feel more successful even I had millions.

Anyway this is your topic and there is no reason to write about me.
I'm glad your LL have gone so good and I hope I'll have so good results too.

Keep strong!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Alu on March 08, 2017, 05:16:24 AM
It has not only to do if you get rejected only for your height at 5.9. It is that our height is not preferable compared to a taller than average man.
That is not the same between a 6ft and a 6.2 ft height men. The second one is more preferable for many women but the first one will be preferable for many women too. So the added height makes no true benefit.
On the other hand, no women would prefer a 5.9 man compared to a 5.11 one, if they are about the same in every other aspect and some women would reject the 5.9 guy only for his height. I used to be ok with that idea, especially when I first got LL and was excited with my new height but now I am not.
I just can't stand to get rejected or just have some kind of drawback for something that I can't change even if I try hard.
And thats why I want another one LL, to have no obvious drawback in my appearance.

And no my friend, I've written it before but I'll write it again, not only the taller girls would reject a man at our height but even the average height ones. I've been with a 5.7 girl when I was 5.65 (before LL) who didn't have any problem with my height and now that I'm 5.9 I've been told many times from 5.4-5.6 girls that I'm on the short side although I'm not short and I would have been ideal if I were 2 inches more.
And some women, although not completely openly, they rejected me for my height and I know it.

So if you are less than average in height, you have a drawback which gets bigger the shorter you are and that hasn't to do with the women's height. All the women prefer taller than average men, not only the tall ones.

And I don't want to please women, I want to have the choice to have the woman I want without any (major at least) physical drawback make me been rejected and lose this opportunity from something that I can't change psysically.
So at the end, I'm doing it to please myself, not women.

Finally, I don't think that we meet necessarily different types of women.
The real difference between us is that I want these women to get attracted to me by my appearance and then my character while you give less significance to your appearance and you try to get these women with your success and your character too of course.
So, we choose different paths to get women and feel good with ourselves.
The good thing for you is that you are completely happy with yourself while I want another LL to feel completely fulfilled and good with me.
But I know that when I get there, I'd feel more successful even I had millions.

Anyway this is your topic and there is no reason to write about me.
I'm glad your LL have gone so good and I hope I'll have so good results too.

Keep strong!

First is such BS it makes me laugh.

Second is so contradictory it kills me lol
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on March 08, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
First is such BS it makes me laugh.

Second is so contradictory it kills me lol

This guy is just pure kek
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 08, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
Alu, if you go out of your room and live the real life you would see that these "bs" is the reality.


Spaceboyfriend, if you disagree with what I'm saying just live your life in peace and stop moaning about your height and that you don't have money for LL.
If height is not important for men go to anold forum and stop being frustrated because you don't have the budget for LL as you mentioned again and again.
Otherwise, stop insulting me, who I did LL and know much more about how important is height and how lifechanging this surgery is, without writing any argument against what I'm saying, and grow up.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on March 08, 2017, 07:41:44 AM
Alu, if you go out of your room and live the real life you would see that these "bs" is the reality.


Spaceboyfriend, if you disagree with what I'm saying just live your life in peace and stop moaning about your height and that you don't have money for LL.
If height is not important for men go to anold forum and stop being frustrated because you don't have the budget for LL as you mentioned again and again.
Otherwise, stop insulting me, who I did LL and know much more about how important is height and how lifechanging this surgery is, without writing any argument against what I'm saying, and grow up.

And this guy is seriously telling other people to grow up lmao
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on March 08, 2017, 08:40:04 AM
Not other people generally.
I'm telling to you and I wrote the reasons why.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on March 08, 2017, 11:32:41 AM
While I do disagree with Bodybuilder to an extant, I see no reason for insulting and calling him names. He has every right to voice his opinion and should not be insulted for it
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on March 08, 2017, 03:19:40 PM
While I do disagree with Bodybuilder to an extant, I see no reason for insulting and calling him names. He has every right to voice his opinion and should not be insulted for it
Agreed.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YourSpaceBoyfriend on March 08, 2017, 03:54:23 PM
While I do disagree with Bodybuilder to an extant, I see no reason for insulting and calling him names. He has every right to voice his opinion and should not be insulted for it

Who was calling him names
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: doomsday on March 08, 2017, 07:57:57 PM
Who was calling him names
no one
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on March 08, 2017, 09:05:08 PM
Finally, I don't think that we meet necessarily different types of women.
The real difference between us is that I want these women to get attracted to me by my appearance and then my character while you give less significance to your appearance and you try to get these women with your success and your character too of course.
So, we choose different paths to get women and feel good with ourselves.
The good thing for you is that you are completely happy with yourself while I want another LL to feel completely fulfilled and good with me.
But I know that when I get there, I'd feel more successful even I had millions.

Anyway this is your topic and there is no reason to write about me.
I'm glad your LL have gone so good and I hope I'll have so good results too.

Keep strong!
Thanks. I'm just trying to get you to be happy with your height as well. It just sucks to see another LL veteran not being completely happy with himself. It doesn't seem like I can convince you, so I'm going to drop the topic. I feel like you were really hurt by those 5'4"-5'6" girls' comment about your height, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I've never had a 5'4"-5'6" girl tell me that I was too short at 5'9" - but at 5'6" they did. So that's why I don't think we're meeting the same type of girls. If anything, my 5'4" ex told me that I was too tall for her 5'9" as one of the reasons why she broke up with me after I got LL - the other one being that I have a weird gait.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: rentless_selfimprovement on March 21, 2017, 04:48:34 AM
I really want to hear more about how you became a self made millionaire.  I'm currently a software engineer at a big 4 (and also 5'6").
I'm not crazy concerned about my height (will likely never get surgery) although I'd take 3" any day over a new Benz.  I'm most interest in how I can quit my 9-5 like you and live big.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Peaceout on May 09, 2017, 07:44:43 PM
Hey its been a while,how are you man??
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 12:16:14 AM
Yup, if more potential LLs did this, maybe they'll consider twice about doing this surgery, because they'll see that girls aren't like swarming them after being 6', like they imagined. Instead, me being wealthy and showing fun/lifestyle on my profile made girls swarm my profile.

This is a really great idea, & a good way to test if the fantasies potential LL'ers have actually match up with reality. Make a profile that genuinely represents your (best/idealized, but realistic) self, add +2-3 inches of height & see how much difference it makes.

The reason I think this surgery is crazy is that there's so much that goes into making an attractive man. It takes time to develop yourself, and to develop your wealth.

My situation re: money is very different to what it was 6-7 years ago, & it shows. But it took time. Dropping 100k into something like this is putting your life on hold not just for the few years it takes to recover, but the 10 years it will take to repay the money.  At 30 you'll have nothing, where you should have built up a solid base by this point which gives you the *freedom* to do whatever the fk you want. LL is throwing that down the drain, unless you already have money-- which is why I think DIM's decision to do the surgery is a far more rational than someone's whose got next to nothing & will be putting themselves into debt.   
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 12:18:51 AM

After reading through this, I think our disagreement stems from you trusting what women say a lot more than I do. I believe in their actions much more than their words, and I've seen plenty of girls who appear kind on the surface do some terrible things. You can't always take everything at face value. Maybe it's due to the cynicism from my past experiences, but I think that women (really, all people) tend to say what they think the other person wants to hear, especially if they are incentivized to do so. I also think how a woman feels about a man influences what she thinks about that man. For example, if a woman feels attracted to a man, she'll also think that he's taller and more masculine and vice versa. Because of this, a lot of guys might hear something like "you're too short for me" when the girl really just means "I'm not attracted to you in general." This may be part of the reason why there are many guys here obsessed about height when changing it may not even be a huge impact to dating. It paints a target onto something out of your control and lets you blame it for your failures rather than being introspective.

That being said, I know there are good girls out there...or at least girls that are more capable of good than bad. At least that's what I want to believe, and why I still try. However I think if you add in the limitation that these girls must also be physically attractive, then in my personal experience they are quite rare. The fact that you meet these kinds of girls in abundance when I hardly meet any certainly signifies to me that our differences are much greater than merely two inches of height. Of course I've always understood that height is only a tiny piece of attraction, yet I've let myself obsess over it for so long. Clearly there is still another level that I can push myself to without undergoing cosmetic surgery. That is of course, greatly increasing my wealth. Maybe the types of girls that you are dating are inaccessible to me otherwise.

Don't worry, I won't replace one compulsion with another. I understand that the money itself is not what we want girls to be attracted to, but rather the type of lifestyle that a wealthy person is able to have and the mindset of such a person. Having the portfolio to never need to rely on a job for income, knowing I had the money and freedom to travel and do things on a whim, and having the power to change people's lives are just a few of the qualities that are attractive to women and produce confidence in a guy on another level. These things simply can't be faked with "game", and pretending they don't matter won't make my dating life any better. I understand the necessity of working for myself to become rich, but my life and job have always been comfortable enough to to just go with the flow. Rather than pushing myself in my free time, I've let side projects fizzle and various opportunities slip away. Today that changes. I'm going to knock LL down a few pegs on my priority list and upgrade growing a business to the very top.

So thank you for responding to my posts, DIFM.. it has given me a lot to process. I'd like to think I'm fairly level-headed about the whole LL thing. I have the goal of financial independence and have always been a saver, so I actually do have the assets to pay for femurs with Paley in cash. However, the cost is too big a percentage of my current net worth, and I haven't figured out the best way to take a break from my career, so I never got close to pulling the trigger. I know there are definitely some guys on this forum that would spend all their savings to get the surgery, but I'm not one of them. I will be taking an indefinite break from the forum. While I can never close Pandora's Box, maybe I'll reach the point where I'm just okay with being 5'7". If not, I'll be back... hopefully after I have achieved the aforementioned level of financial success and tried out the corresponding dating life.

Best of luck on your bone growth and hopefully taking the rods out will fix your gait!

I love this post too, especially the bolded.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 12:29:44 AM
I personally would take the money for surgery and invest it in stocks. My stocks have been doubling in value every 5 years or so. If I put $100k into stocks today, it'd be $200k in 5 years, $400k in 10 years, and about $1 million in less than 25 years. And you said it's impossible to be a millionaire? And that's assuming that you only have 100k and never make anymore money. Realistically, you should keep contributing a portion of your salary to your investments and you could easily become a millionaire by the time you retire.
I know you don't see it that way, but I think you're just meeting a different type of girl than I am, that's all.

And this is how the average person in a western country can be still become relatively wealthy (i.e $1 million+). Get a job & start investing. This is a great thread! Lots of really good info in here over the last few pages.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yyes on May 10, 2017, 12:48:54 AM
I may be going against the grain with my way of thinking but if youre young and make decent salary why wouldnt you want to have this surgery if it will make you feel better about yourself?

I dont make that much myself. I make roughly 70k a year and I will be 30 in a few years but you can bet your ass that I am thinking long and hard about this surgery.

Will it take from my retirement? Yeah maybe. But I am very frugal myself. I drive a decent car, dont spend too much on other things and at the end of the month I have roughly 2k left over. This is after contributing to my IRA account and my 401k.

All in all, we all have our wants. We dont really need anything besides food and shelter in life so anything after that, I can argue that its just a want.

Are you saying that at 70k, I shouldnt do this surgery because its going to set me back for years even though I am contributing roughly 20% of my salary to retirement?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 01:05:23 AM
Only you can decide that, but I'm not really talking about retirement.

Think of it this way-- for most people, saving 100k is hard. Let's say a person that's 23 understands the basic principles of making money (saving, investing, compound interest, diversification etc) & manages to put together 100k in savings, & 100k in their retirement fund by their late 20's.

They're in a decent situation. They have no debt, & they have 200k sitting there which is making them money while they sit on their ass. A 7% return is giving them 14k a year for nothing. If they want to spend $10,000 on a couple of holidays throughout the year, it's not a big deal. They're only spending 5% of their total worth to do it, & they will make it back quickly. The same logic goes for buying nice clothing, going out to nice restaurants, & having nice experiences in general. Obviously this person will not overspend because they are sensible, but they can easily afford to do these kinds of things (within reason), while continuing to build even more wealth from their investments, & having the peace of mind that money brings.

Lets say that 23 year old does LL instead. The debt they've taken out is accruing interest, they're missing out on work ... if all goes reasonably well, by their late 20's I think a decent result would just be not having debt. So, they're close to 30 and have nothing. Let's say after getting rid of that debt, they save pretty hard, & manage to put together 50k in a few years.

So this person is already older than our first example, they're 32. A 7% return is making them just 3500 a year. If they want to spend 10,000 on a holiday, it's a *big* chunk of their net worth at 20%. They have far less freedom, and I imagine for more stress. And this is a *good* result. I'm assuming they have been employed and able to pay off the debt, that they haven't had any extra medical expenses, that they use their money wisely etc etc.

So it's less about retirement and more about what kind of lifestyle you're able to realistically afford both right now and in the near future (5-10 years)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: yyes on May 10, 2017, 01:13:52 AM
Only you can decide that, but I'm not really talking about retirement.

Think of it this way-- for most people, saving 100k is hard. Let's say a person that's 23 understands the basic principles of making money (saving, investing, compound interest, diversification etc) & manages to put together 100k in savings, & 100k in their retirement fund by their late 20's.

They're in a decent situation. They have no debt, & they have 200k sitting there which is making them money while they sit on their ass. A 7% return is giving them 14k a year for nothing. If they want to spend $10,000 on a couple of holidays throughout the year, it's not a big deal. They're only spending 5% of their total worth to do it, & they will make it back quickly. The same logic goes for buying nice clothing, going out to nice restaurants, & having nice experiences in general. Obviously this person will not overspend because they are sensible, but they can easily afford to do these kinds of things (within reason), while continuing to build even more wealth from their investments, & having the peace of mind that money brings.

Lets say that 23 year old does LL instead. The debt they've taken out is accruing interest, they're missing out on work ... if all goes reasonably well, by their late 20's I think a decent result would just be not having debt. So, they're close to 30 and have nothing. Let's say after getting rid of that debt, they save pretty hard, & manage to put together 50k in a few years.

So this person is already older than our first example, they're 32. A 7% return is making them just 3500 a year. If they want to spend 10,000 on a holiday, it's a *big* chunk of their net worth at 20%. They have far less freedom, and I imagine for more stress. And this is a *good* result. I'm assuming they have been employed and able to pay off the debt, that they haven't had any extra medical expenses, that they use their money wisely etc etc.

So it's less about retirement and more about what kind of lifestyle you're able to realistically afford both right now and in the near future (5-10 years)

I agree with you to a certain extent. I think its all about balance and it also depends on the person. If someone that is naturally frugal doesnt care about living an extravagant lifestyle then they can live well in the future. Once again, saving 20% of your income from a young age (mid 20's) should be more than enough for the future.

What good is having all that money in the bank account at 70 or 80 when the best years of your life are in your 20s and 30s? Im not saying dont save, but if you can afford to do something with your play money, why not do this surgery?

Going back to my example, unless im wrong, making 70k is decent and I can afford to have this surgery while still saving 20% for retirement. But to me becoming wealthy is not at the top of my list as far as priorities go. 
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 01:21:45 AM
I agree with you to a certain extent. I think its all about balance and it also depends on the person. If someone that is naturally frugal doesnt care about living an extravagant lifestyle then they can live well in the future. Once again, saving 20% of your income from a young age (mid 20's) should be more than enough for the future.

What good is having all that money in the bank account at 70 or 80 when the best years of your life are in your 20s and 30s? Im not saying dont save, but if you can afford to do something with your play money, why not do this surgery?

Going back to my example, unless im wrong, making 70k is decent and I can afford to have this surgery while still saving 20% for retirement. But to me becoming wealthy is not at the top of my list as far as priorities go.

The point is that it gives you freedom (most importantly!) & peace of mind right now. In the future, it's something to leave for your children & pay for their expenses (study, unforeseen medical bills) & to alleviate your own suffering from which age brings. Where you decide to draw the line re: balance is up to you. But I don't think LL is a balanced decision at all.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: google42 on May 10, 2017, 01:29:16 AM
Thatdude how tall are you? If your average height or above then you probably won't understand why people do ll.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Thatdude950 on May 10, 2017, 01:39:52 AM
I can appreciate why guys that are shorter/the same height as the average woman do it, but not those who are taller. I think those that are taller & still have trouble with women have other things which hold them back but they refuse to look at themselves & their other flaws objectively, or perhaps have a black/white, limited understanding of what women find attractive.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: U only live once on May 10, 2017, 04:28:23 AM
All the comments stated above are very valid finance principles and of course LL is a no-no from a investment perspective. 100 k is a considerable amount of money and the ROI would be probably zero financially speaking. Not too mention the cost of opportunity for the time taken off work due to LL. however, this is all about living the live you want and be yourself! This surgery could be worth millions in happiness. Money can't buy happiness, not directly, but if you can afford this ludicrous surgery, Just do it. Think carefully and analize whether it's your hight that is holding back personally or professionally and if that is th case just do it.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on May 17, 2017, 07:25:58 AM
Hey its been a while,how are you man??
I'm doing very well. I still haven't gotten an x-ray since last October, because I'm afraid to know the truth - that my bones still haven't connected on the side of my bone gap. Other than that, it's been almost two years since I started this LL journey, so let's have an update:

1) My legs still hurt if I use them too much. It hurts where my screws are connected to the femur - top and bottom of femur. Sometimes my friends notice that I'm like limping when I walk 5 miles straight. And I'm limping because it hurts - presumably because the screws are taking repeated blows from the impact of the concrete sidewalk. The same applies if I put too much weight on one leg. I'm hoping that this will go away when I remove the rods so that the pressure is more evenly distributed throughout my bones.

2) Most of the time it doesn't hurt anymore - for example, if I'm just sitting around doing nothing or walking lightly. This was a big concern of mine because for about a year it did hurt, but it seems like it's all gone now. Now my only concern is what will happen if my bones don't ever regrow, and I end up having to get a bone graft surgery.

3) I can finally put on socks/shoes while standing on one leg. I used to do this with ease prior to LL, but it was almost impossible for 1-2 years until I finally got my balance/flexibility/leg muscles back.

4) My calves are getting an amazing workout from the longer femurs. Since it takes more muscles now to lift up my body from a squatting position, my calves are getting an amazing workout from just everyday routines like getting up from a chair/toilet. I've noticed that they're much more cut than prior to LL. Girls have complimented me on my calves, even though I don't even work out my calf muscles much.

5) My butt is still smaller than before LL. I don't think I'll ever get it back without rigorous exercise, because the growth has stopped. My thigh muscles have returned, though. They're hard and thick again.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: MarioQ on July 11, 2017, 04:25:08 AM
Hi DM. How you been doing?,  Got your X-ray results yet?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 18, 2017, 06:28:41 PM
Yes, a while ago. And the news isn't great. My right leg is healed up and Paley said it was ready to remove the rod. But my left leg still hasn't healed fully and it's been two years since the surgery. Paley told me that I should do another surgery to remove the rods and insert fixed stainless steel rods instead. He said that I could keep the stainless steel rods in forever or remove them later on. He said that I shouldn't keep the precice nails in for more than 2-3 years because it is made of titanium and that the metal might flake off and enter my blood stream over time as it keeps rubbing against each other. And that if that happens, it might cause tumors.

The gap in my left leg has decreased from 2-3 inches to about 1-2 inches after one year. At this rate, I don't think it will fully heal until the second half of 2018. He also offered a second option, which is to remove a set of screws to make my leg not rely on the rods. He said that adding pressure to my bones will cause it to want to grow faster.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSouthAmerica on July 18, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Hi DoingItForMe. I think 2 years is too long for total consolidation. I haven't read your diary completely but do you still have a limp? Maybe you can show us the x-rays? I think the steel rods are a good option but do know that doctors make them "stick out" of the bone a little and this can disturb/irritate soft tissues, so you might end up with minor pain around the hips if you do not remove it.

How old are you? Do you smoke? Are you being active/going to the gym? Have you tried medication (risidronate, vitamin D+ calcium, HGH, etc)? Have you tried bone stimulators?

Hopefully, these questions don't bother you but I think they are important.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 18, 2017, 08:47:14 PM
Hi DoingItForMe. I think 2 years is too long for total consolidation. I haven't read your diary completely but do you still have a limp? Maybe you can show us the x-rays? I think the steel rods are a good option but do know that doctors make them "stick out" of the bone a little and this can disturb/irritate soft tissues, so you might end up with minor pain around the hips if you do not remove it.

How old are you? Do you smoke? Are you being active/going to the gym? Have you tried medication (risidronate, vitamin D+ calcium, HGH, etc)? Have you tried bone stimulators?

Hopefully, these questions don't bother you but I think they are important.
I still have a limp, but I think the screws of the precice nails are sticking out of the femur head and causing me to me limp, because it is irritating my soft tissues when I walk. But the limp is less noticeable now I think. I'm starting to run more normally as well. Before my run is kind of weird. What helped was that I started running again at the gym a few miles a day. Ultimately I do want to remove the rods so that I can walk normally again hopefully. I'm still not comfortable posting my x-rays. I can describe them if you want, but I don't think it's necessary to post them.

Yes, my case doesn't seem normal. The gap should have been smaller faster. Noticed that the other Paley patients I was with had faster consolidation. They lengthened less (7 cm), but I doubt that had an effect, since even if the gap was 7 cm instead of 8 cm, it still wouldn't have connected by now.

I'm in my late 20s/early 30s. I don't smoke. Never have. I wasn't active in the gym during consolidation phase (i.e. still in crutches), and yet that was around the time I had the most growth. Problem was that all that growth on my femur was on the inner side of my leg. There was barely any growth on the outer side of my legs. I was active in the gym after I was able to walk again, though. I swam a lot throughout.

I'm only taking Vitamin D and Calcium right now. Before that I was taking the bone supplements that Paley recommended. It was basically Calcium, Magnesium, Silicone and some other stuff. I didn't take any HGH or anything else.

I have been using bone simulators. Been using Exogen 4000+. I stopped when I realized that the growth doesn't seem affected by it at all. Confirmed this after I stopped using it for half a year, and the growth was the same rate. Might start using it just for the hell of it, since I paid hundreds of dollars for the two units. The first unit ran out of batteries after 200 uses, so did the second one, but I replaced it with a new $40 battery bought online and now it's at 400 uses and still running.

Maybe some of each of those things had a small effect on bone growth, but I think Paley is right when he says that putting pressure on the bones will stimulate bone growth faster. I suspect this because all the growth is on one side of my femur. And it happens to be on the same inner thigh area of both femurs. So I suspect that the weight of my body is relying more on the inner side of my femur than the outer side for both my legs and that's why all the growth is there. And my right leg, which is the more dominant leg, consolidated faster, too. So that further proves my theory.

So my advice for those doing LL is to try to put more weight onto your bones as early as possible - meaning that even during lengthening and consolidation, you should be standing often.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: MarioQ on July 19, 2017, 04:21:54 PM
HI DFM, do you think or there is any evidence that if you would stopped at 5cm or less you should not have any of this problem?.  There are little info about that but from what I read from different patients all talk about the threshold of 5cm for safe and little complications or no complications.

I would appreciate your thoughs
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 20, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
My bone growth is just slow. 5 cm would mean that my gap would be connected by now. But only because the gap is smaller and easier to reach. But the speed of growth would probably be the same.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSouthAmerica on July 20, 2017, 06:25:27 PM
I still have a limp, but I think the screws of the precice nails are sticking out of the femur head and causing me to me limp, because it is irritating my soft tissues when I walk. But the limp is less noticeable now I think. I'm starting to run more normally as well. Before my run is kind of weird. What helped was that I started running again at the gym a few miles a day. Ultimately I do want to remove the rods so that I can walk normally again hopefully. I'm still not comfortable posting my x-rays. I can describe them if you want, but I don't think it's necessary to post them.

Yes, my case doesn't seem normal. The gap should have been smaller faster. Noticed that the other Paley patients I was with had faster consolidation. They lengthened less (7 cm), but I doubt that had an effect, since even if the gap was 7 cm instead of 8 cm, it still wouldn't have connected by now.

I'm in my late 20s/early 30s. I don't smoke. Never have. I wasn't active in the gym during consolidation phase (i.e. still in crutches), and yet that was around the time I had the most growth. Problem was that all that growth on my femur was on the inner side of my leg. There was barely any growth on the outer side of my legs. I was active in the gym after I was able to walk again, though. I swam a lot throughout.

I'm only taking Vitamin D and Calcium right now. Before that I was taking the bone supplements that Paley recommended. It was basically Calcium, Magnesium, Silicone and some other stuff. I didn't take any HGH or anything else.

I have been using bone simulators. Been using Exogen 4000+. I stopped when I realized that the growth doesn't seem affected by it at all. Confirmed this after I stopped using it for half a year, and the growth was the same rate. Might start using it just for the hell of it, since I paid hundreds of dollars for the two units. The first unit ran out of batteries after 200 uses, so did the second one, but I replaced it with a new $40 battery bought online and now it's at 400 uses and still running.

Maybe some of each of those things had a small effect on bone growth, but I think Paley is right when he says that putting pressure on the bones will stimulate bone growth faster. I suspect this because all the growth is on one side of my femur. And it happens to be on the same inner thigh area of both femurs. So I suspect that the weight of my body is relying more on the inner side of my femur than the outer side for both my legs and that's why all the growth is there. And my right leg, which is the more dominant leg, consolidated faster, too. So that further proves my theory.

So my advice for those doing LL is to try to put more weight onto your bones as early as possible - meaning that even during lengthening and consolidation, you should be standing often.

Don't worry if you don't feel comfortable posting them; describing them would be of no help. It's interesting because a lot of people have different types of callus formation. I've read plenty of evidence that says that biphosphonates are of help in the development of callus and can make it bigger. Although besides Dr. Guichet, I don't know of any doctor who prescribes biphosphonates. On the other hand, no other doctor but Paley recommends bone stimulators like exogen which in their web page its company claims that it can help in 80% of non-unions.

Also Precise is partial weight bearing, so unlike the albizzia nail I used, you should rely more on your bone than in the nail. You don't have any other risks factors. Sometimes I guess it's just luck. I'm sorry that after all this time you are still having some trouble. I wish you the best. You still have plenty of options you haven't go through with yet!
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on July 28, 2017, 01:57:43 PM
Paley did recommend a biphosphonate for my situation. We knew early on that my bone growth was slow. I believe it was $1000 to get one. Paley said that it would probably reduce my consolidation time by about a month. I opted out, though, because I became weight bearing sooner than expected. I wrote about this earlier in this thread sometime during my consolidation phase in late 2015.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: YellowSpike on July 28, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
DIFM, you're not alone. I had a limp for a while too, definitely due to femur screw near the hip. It was only on my left side, so I had the screw removed, but left the rod in as that leg wasn't entirely healed yet (should be now). My right the bone is 100% healed, and since that's the side where I have the recurring knee pain (although my better and more rare these days, thankfully)...I think this winter I'm going to take out the right rod and see how I do. Maybe I'll do both, I don't know, I have to see.

What you're experiencing is certain muscles (glute medius) not activating properly because your body tries to avoid the pain caused by the screw near the hip area. Once you get that taken out and get back to squatting/deadlifting like I have, your walking will normalize and you'll get your ass back (my ass has actually never looked better lol, I can deadlift around 400 lbs now).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: deniscef on July 28, 2017, 05:31:55 PM
someone knows why Dr paley does not respond emails?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: LLSouthAmerica on July 28, 2017, 06:13:27 PM
someone knows why Dr paley does not respond emails?

Most likely he receives hundreds of LL questions and has no time to reply them, as most of them will never do the surgery with him and are only "researching"
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: DoingItForMe on August 03, 2017, 04:39:37 AM
What you're experiencing is certain muscles (glute medius) not activating properly because your body tries to avoid the pain caused by the screw near the hip area. Once you get that taken out and get back to squatting/deadlifting like I have, your walking will normalize and you'll get your ass back (my ass has actually never looked better lol, I can deadlift around 400 lbs now).
I'm almost certain that this is the reason as well. Right now, I walk kind of like a cowboy unless I purposefully close my legs while walking. But if I do, the screws at the head of my femur hurt me, so my "natural" gait now is to try to not walk with my thighs close together. It looks weird, and people have commented on it. But when I walk with my legs closed, they say it looks normal again. Paley also suggested removing the screws. I am contemplating doing it.

someone knows why Dr paley does not respond emails?
Paley replies to my emails the same day, but he only does it during a certain time of his day when he's not doing surgery or with patients. I wouldn't suggest emailing him if you aren't a patient of his already or already paid for a deposit or asking to do consultation. He's a very very busy guy. Even with his own patients, it can take a whole day before he replies to you.
Title: DoingItForMe - why not quadrilateral?
Post by: OverrideYourGenetics on January 15, 2018, 12:35:47 PM
Planned height: 173 cm (5'8") - 8 cm (3") increase

How I'm paying for it: I'm self-made. I started coding apps after I read some poor person's autobiography about how he made millions from coding apps.

DIFM, if you don't mind, if money wasn't a concern (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2165.msg47217#msg47217), why did you choose 8cm in the femurs ($90k), which is much more difficult to recover from (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4537.msg71089#msg71089) than 6cm, instead of doing Simultaneous Lengthening of tibias+femurs (http://www.paleyinstitute.org/centers-of-excellence/stature-lengthening-center/consolidation-phase) (staggered 3 weeks apart) for $180k?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: blacksheepwall on January 17, 2018, 02:01:23 AM
DIFM. I read your diary, congratz on everything, Im glad you found the key to your happiness. Very happy for you.

I just want to say that, as a 5'9 guy who isn't ugly. I cant date girls for  . I'm not a millionare but I am not poor either. You described your dating life in your mid 20s at 5'6, it was wayyyy better than my dating life lol. =/. My love life is practically non existent.

Do you recommend Paley? You mentioned you did not like his medical ethics, can you elaborate on this? If a patient paid 100k for this invasive procedure, how can the doctor be unethical about it?

Also, did your parents know about the procedure? Were they supportive? Did you hire someone to help you during your 2 month lengthening and 2 month consolidation after you went home? Or did you go through this all by yourself?

I think if I were to go through this, I might have to do it alone. I cant bear having my parents know I am doing this, it would hurt them...

Thanks
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: InferiorityComplex on January 17, 2018, 11:53:51 AM
Being taller in regards of "dating life" helps more than what you can describe, but that is ONLY if height is the missing piece and the one thing you reckon they complain about. I did it all alone, trying to walk perfectly before the end of the month where i'll end up meeting relatives again...Down the stairs is still a problem and a possible "tell"..rest I think I can complain on an injury (not waddling like I did before but still takes time after you stand up from a chair a couple of seconds to walk 60-70 %) On the 6 months mark btw. As long as you're into video games - social video games / netflix I think you will be fine, It definitely helps having other LL partners as well to push yourself etc. Hope this helps blacksheepwall.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: InferiorityComplex on January 17, 2018, 11:06:28 PM
Tremendous diary, I like how everyone is getting surprised by how big of a factor money is. Extremely important to mention AGAIN that only do this surgery if you have everything else checked. I also regret lengthening around 6 cm...should of gone with 4+4 for mechanical and proportions. I don't want to get taller than I already have become...luckily my upper body supports another 4cm tibia, but probably not wingspan. If I do tibia then maybe it's possible to take away 2 cm from femurs at the same time?
I wonder who is richer lol, you sublimely mention that you have a Bugatti then you definitely beat me. I like that you're also humble and only paying 10k for a trip, first class ticket alone sometimes cost that much :) I'll definitely keep my eye out for an Asian with long femurs + Model looking babe when I go to the caribbean,  unless you fly Private of course.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on January 18, 2018, 12:05:47 AM
Tremendous diary, I like how everyone is getting surprised by how big of a factor money is. Extremely important to mention AGAIN that only do this surgery if you have everything else checked. I also regret lengthening around 6 cm...should of gone with 4+4 for mechanical and proportions. I don't want to get taller than I already have become...luckily my upper body supports another 4cm tibia, but probably not wingspan. If I do tibia then maybe it's possible to take away 2 cm from femurs at the same time?
I wonder who is richer lol, you sublimely mention that you have a Bugatti then you definitely beat me. I like that you're also humble and only paying 10k for a trip, first class ticket alone sometimes cost that much :) I'll definitely keep my eye out for an Asian with long femurs + Model looking babe when I go to the caribbean,  unless you fly Private of course.
Take away 2 cm? There is absolutely no reason to do that, it will cause for sure problems with the soft tissues as they'll become overlengthened if the bone is shortened and no respectable doctor will do something like that.

Also it is stupid to want another LL and at the same time to want to reduce one segment by 2cm.
LL is not a game and you can't add or lessen a few cm just for fun.
I can't understand how you are rich withoun having common sense in something like LL.
Maybe you heired the money.  :D
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: TIBIKE200 on January 18, 2018, 01:53:56 AM
Being taller in regards of "dating life" helps more than what you can describe, but that is ONLY if height is the missing piece and the one thing you reckon they complain about. I did it all alone, trying to walk perfectly before the end of the month where i'll end up meeting relatives again...Down the stairs is still a problem and a possible "tell"..rest I think I can complain on an injury (not waddling like I did before but still takes time after you stand up from a chair a couple of seconds to walk 60-70 %) On the 6 months mark btw. As long as you're into video games - social video games / netflix I think you will be fine, It definitely helps having other LL partners as well to push yourself etc. Hope this helps blacksheepwall.

"Being taller in regards of "dating life" helps more than what you can describe". How do you know that? You still haven't recovered.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: InferiorityComplex on January 18, 2018, 09:00:11 AM
Good reply BodyBuilder, hope I can manage 3-4 on my tibs then. Would be cool to see how you are in regards of proportions as you've been talking about a second LL for a long time, what is stopping you?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: InferiorityComplex on January 18, 2018, 09:06:48 AM
"Being taller in regards of "dating life" helps more than what you can describe". How do you know that? You still haven't recovered.

I haven't recovered? Been having sex with multiple different people and literally gone dating/clubbing almost daily since around Christmas time...I am by no means back to 100% but biking and walking somewhat normal now? Only thing that is really bad is walking DOWN the stairs.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Body Builder on January 18, 2018, 11:47:30 AM
Good reply BodyBuilder, hope I can manage 3-4 on my tibs then. Would be cool to see how you are in regards of proportions as you've been talking about a second LL for a long time, what is stopping you?
My proportions are relatively good but to be even better I need femur LL because now my tibias look likg while my femurs not.
So with another LL both my segments will look proportionate compare to each other and although my torso will look short for my feet, my shoulder width will help to look ok.
I know that nked I'd look a little weird but nothing too much. With clothes on I'd look perfect, much better that with my initial height.

The only reason I still don't do femur LL is money.
I believe that in about 2 years I'll have all the money I need (40-50k euros) but unfortunately now I don't have even the half.
If I had the money I'd do LL next week. I am very determined but unfortunately not rich enough.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe - why not quadrilateral?
Post by: OverrideYourGenetics on February 09, 2018, 11:09:44 PM
DIFM, if you don't mind, if money wasn't a concern (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2165.msg47217#msg47217), why did you choose 8cm in the femurs ($90k), which is much more difficult to recover from (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4537.msg71089#msg71089) than 6cm, instead of doing Simultaneous Lengthening of tibias+femurs (http://www.paleyinstitute.org/centers-of-excellence/stature-lengthening-center/consolidation-phase) (staggered 3 weeks apart) for $180k?

Looks like DIFM hasn't been around in ~3 weeks, and in the meantime I've read more of his diary, in particular this (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2165.msg49821#msg49821):

Quote
even if the tibia surgery was free, I wouldn't do it. I have the money to do tibia LL right now, but I rather burn the money than go through LL surgery again. It is just not worth it to do LL if you're going to end up in debt or if you're already average height. And I'm writing this because not only am I still in pain, but I just wasted a year of my life for this surgery, and I missed out on a lot of things because of it. If I could go back in time, I'd have told myself to not do it. I wish I had a great recovery like some of the other LL veterans. But I guess I drew the short straw. Too late now for me to undo my mistake. But it's not too late for some of you to reconsider forgetting LL and moving on with your life.

That doesn't address my question - why didn't DIFM do the two surgeries simultaneously, and lengthen only 6cm in the femurs and 5 in the tibias? That's more than the 8cm he got in the femurs, and the recovery would've been much better if he stopped at 6 in the femurs. Pain wouldn't be double - most of it would overlap. Less time would've been lost as well. He'd look more proportional. I still don't understand why he chose to do femurs only. Maybe he didn't know/think of the femurs+tibias option?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: MirinHeight on February 10, 2018, 12:00:50 AM
My proportions are relatively good but to be even better I need femur LL because now my tibias look likg while my femurs not.
So with another LL both my segments will look proportionate compare to each other and although my torso will look short for my feet, my shoulder width will help to look ok.
I know that nked I'd look a little weird but nothing too much. With clothes on I'd look perfect, much better that with my initial height.

The only reason I still don't do femur LL is money.
I believe that in about 2 years I'll have all the money I need (40-50k euros) but unfortunately now I don't have even the half.
If I had the money I'd do LL next week. I am very determined but unfortunately not rich enough.

how much did you lengthen?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: OverrideYourGenetics on February 10, 2018, 12:30:19 AM
If I had the money I'd do LL next week. I am very determined but unfortunately not rich enough.

In general, I think it's worth delaying the surgery until you get the money to pay for a top doctor and do both tibias+femurs if you need more than 6cm of total height, especially if you're young enough.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe - why not quadrilateral?
Post by: CaptainAmerica on February 10, 2018, 11:17:11 PM
Looks like DIFM hasn't been around in ~3 weeks, and in the meantime I've read more of his diary, in particular this (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2165.msg49821#msg49821):

That doesn't address my question - why didn't DIFM do the two surgeries simultaneously, and lengthen only 6cm in the femurs and 5 in the tibias? That's more than the 8cm he got in the femurs, and the recovery would've been much better if he stopped at 6 in the femurs. Pain wouldn't be double - most of it would overlap. Less time would've been lost as well. He'd look more proportional. I still don't understand why he chose to do femurs only. Maybe he didn't know/think of the femurs+tibias option?

Doing tibias and femurs at the same time is absolutely brutal, femurs are much easier to live with than tibia, recoveries seem faster as well. I can see how someone would only want to do femurs.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe - why not quadrilateral?
Post by: OverrideYourGenetics on February 18, 2018, 11:50:38 PM
Doing tibias and femurs at the same time is absolutely brutal, femurs are much easier to live with than tibia, recoveries seem faster as well. I can see how someone would only want to do femurs.

IAmReady's experience was pretty brutal indeed at 31yo, but Vitruvius at 52yo had a much better time (http://www. /index.php/topic,7913.msg106262.html#msg106262). I've read both diaries and what stood out as different was:


Pros for QLL:
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: myloginacc on August 18, 2018, 12:23:36 PM
I still have a limp, but I think the screws of the precice nails are sticking out of the femur head and causing me to me limp, because it is irritating my soft tissues when I walk. But the limp is less noticeable now I think. I'm starting to run more normally as well. Before my run is kind of weird. What helped was that I started running again at the gym a few miles a day. Ultimately I do want to remove the rods so that I can walk normally again hopefully. I'm still not comfortable posting my x-rays. I can describe them if you want, but I don't think it's necessary to post them.

Yes, my case doesn't seem normal. The gap should have been smaller faster. Noticed that the other Paley patients I was with had faster consolidation. They lengthened less (7 cm), but I doubt that had an effect, since even if the gap was 7 cm instead of 8 cm, it still wouldn't have connected by now.

I'm in my late 20s/early 30s. I don't smoke. Never have. I wasn't active in the gym during consolidation phase (i.e. still in crutches), and yet that was around the time I had the most growth. Problem was that all that growth on my femur was on the inner side of my leg. There was barely any growth on the outer side of my legs. I was active in the gym after I was able to walk again, though. I swam a lot throughout.

I'm only taking Vitamin D and Calcium right now. Before that I was taking the bone supplements that Paley recommended. It was basically Calcium, Magnesium, Silicone and some other stuff. I didn't take any HGH or anything else.

I have been using bone simulators. Been using Exogen 4000+. I stopped when I realized that the growth doesn't seem affected by it at all. Confirmed this after I stopped using it for half a year, and the growth was the same rate. Might start using it just for the hell of it, since I paid hundreds of dollars for the two units. The first unit ran out of batteries after 200 uses, so did the second one, but I replaced it with a new $40 battery bought online and now it's at 400 uses and still running.

Maybe some of each of those things had a small effect on bone growth, but I think Paley is right when he says that putting pressure on the bones will stimulate bone growth faster. I suspect this because all the growth is on one side of my femur. And it happens to be on the same inner thigh area of both femurs. So I suspect that the weight of my body is relying more on the inner side of my femur than the outer side for both my legs and that's why all the growth is there. And my right leg, which is the more dominant leg, consolidated faster, too. So that further proves my theory.

So my advice for those doing LL is to try to put more weight onto your bones as early as possible - meaning that even during lengthening and consolidation, you should be standing often.

I hope the limp has gone away completely since he made this post. It's one of my favorite diaries in here.

If former Paley patients ever come back to the forums and read posts like this, I'd like to know their impressions of Stryde and how they think it'd have affected them (like people such as OYG already shared here).
Title: Re: DoingItForMe - why not quadrilateral?
Post by: Iamready on August 27, 2018, 12:54:24 AM
IAmReady's experience was pretty brutal indeed at 31yo, but Vitruvius at 52yo had a much better time (http://www. /index.php/topic,7913.msg106262.html#msg106262). I've read both diaries and what stood out as different was:

  • Vitruvius stopped at 1.85" in the tibias (4.7cm). IAmReady went to 5.5cm and at one point slowed lengthening to 0.25mm/day.
  • IAmReady had the surgeries back to back - femurs after stopping lengthening on the tibias. That didn't seem to reduce the pain. Vitruvius had the staggered 3 weeks apart as Paley advises to prevent fat embolism. Overlapping them that way halved the downtime and the amount of painkillers (with risk of liver damage). Because femurs lengthen and consolidate faster, they caught up with the tibias just about when the tibias were done lengthening (http://www. /index.php/topic,7913.msg106329.html#msg106329).
  • Vitruvius had trained pre-op "at race level" (http://www. /index.php/topic,7913.msg106262.html#msg106262) - "Before the operation I raced in triathlons, mountain biked, and I was an avid skier.   I’m now back to riding, swimming, trail running, weight lifting with my legs". I don't recall IAmReady mentioning his pre-op training.

Pros for QLL:
  • IAmReady and everyone who followed his diary were super impressed with how good the proportions looked
  • Vitruvius was able to return to close to 100% athletic ability, even at 52yo

It was just bad luck for me. I put in more time and effort  than any other patient at the Paley Institute during the time I was there. Perhaps Vitruvius went at a time where he was able to get more attention from the doctors. I have extremely wide feet that did not fit in the lazy one size fits all dorsiflexion boot that they provided. The reason why the Paley Institute offers a custom fitted boot is because I demanded it. If I wore it from the start I would have had a much easier time. There was also a complication that the doctors did not pick up until my femur surgery consultation- the fibula consolidated while the tibia was still lengthening causing my legs to bow. I had no choice but to do the surgeries back to back without a gap because of this complication.  The Paley institute was extremely busy during the time I was there and I felt I deserved more attention than I received. In the end, everything has worked out. I recently removed my rods and I’m recovering. My life is better than it ever was and I don’t regret a single thing except that I wish I had come up with the money sooner.
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: hotty on August 27, 2018, 07:38:26 PM
Hi Iamready. Glad to know you are doing great. It was unfortunate you deleted the diary due to the trolls but it was one of the best diaries on here.

From what little I know, DIFM had a decent result too, but he somewhat regrets having done the procedure. Eventually it is all about the mindset. LL is a little too expensive in every sense and even with great results, only the ones who have done it know how hard it is. :)
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: myloginacc on April 19, 2019, 01:56:07 AM
DIFM, if you ever read this, did you have the precice rods removed? Did your bone gap ever fully heal?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: FutureManuteBol on June 08, 2019, 07:44:26 PM
Any update?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Blairheight on March 06, 2020, 12:31:05 AM
Just read the entire post.

Does anyone personally know DIFM and can share his current status?
Title: Re: DoingItForMe's Precice 2 Internal Femurs with Dr. Paley
Post by: Shorty_NoMore on November 26, 2020, 11:05:55 PM
DIFM thanks for your diary, this helps me mechanically to prepare for LL, as well as psychologically on why i need to do this.

I am Asian, can relate to your story pre millionaire and LL. I'm still working on the money part, then continue with the LL stage.

DIFM mentioned in the past if there's no post, life is great for him as people eventually want to move on and forget about this painful experience. I hope that's the case, super curious after 5 years if he ever recover 100%...