Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Doctors => Topic started by: Android on December 27, 2017, 12:50:33 AM
-
Note: please refer to our disclaimer about The Doctors Directory
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0 (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0)
Everything below was simply copied off of their site (https://www.athensbjr.com/) unless noted.
Dr Dimitrios Giotikas, MD, PhD
Consultant Surgeon in Trauma & Orthopaedics
Athens BJR Clinical Director
Hon. Senior Clinical Lecturer of the faculty of Medical Science at Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge, UK.
Full profile (https://www.athensbjr.com/dr-dimitrios-giotikas.html) including training, qualifications, work history, publications, and memberships
Cost & Pricing of Cosmetic Limb Lengthening
- Femoral lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 36950 Euro
- Tibia lengthening with TSF (Smith & Nephew) circular frames: 22600 Euro
- Tibia lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 38950 Euro
- Four segment cross-leg lengthening (femurs and tibias in two stages within 6 months) lengthening: 54000 Euro
What is included in the above prices:
- Pre-operative and post-operative blood tests
- Pre-operative and post-operative x-rays,
- full board hospital stay for 4 nights in two bed bedroom,
- Pre- and post-operative medications
- Anaesthetist's fees,
- Surgeon's fee,
- Surgical assistant's fee,
- Implants,
- Soft tissue procedures (tendon or IT band releases) which will be performed at the same setting with the main operation
- in hospital physiotherapy until discharge.
- Crutches and wheelchair
- Post-operative (after discharge) physiotherapy, (5 sessions/week for the first two weeks, 3 sessions/week for the following 8 weeks. total 10 weeks, 34 sessions)
What is NOT included
- Accommodations in Athens.
- Travel to and from Athens.
- Transportations in Athens.
- Food and other supplies during your stay in Athens.
- Entertainment and/or Internet costs.
- Home health aides (nurses, homemakers, etc.).
Consultation
You can book a free 15 minute consultation (https://www.athensbjr.com/book-an-appointment.html) online. (Note: not sure how successive consults are handled.)
Contact Info
Athens Bone & Joint Reconstruction Centre
Athens Towers 20th floor, 2-4 Messogion Av, 11527, Athens, Greece
Tel: +30 210 74 54 367
Mon-Fri: 09.00-18.00 (Time zone: UTC+02.00)
email: info@athensbjr.com
-
I sent an email a couple months ago with some questions. Emphasis in responses are his.
I have questions regarding four-segment cross-leg lengthening mentioned here:
https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-and-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening.html (https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-and-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening.html)
1. Which methods are used for these procedures? Is it a mix of internal/external methods or are all segments the same (all external, all internal)?
I do four-segment-cross leg lengthening with Precise-2 nail in the femur and Taylor Spatial Frame (TSF) external fixator with clickers on the opposite leg. The main advantage of this approach is that patients are able to have a limb to stand and walk on with full weight bearing at all times during the lengthening and consolidation phases. This greatly helps with physiotherapy, muscle preservation and allows patients to continue with their usual daily activities with the least disturbance ( Looking after themselves, seeing friends, going out, even return to work, etc). If a patient is interested in four-segment lengthening with Precise nails only, I do both femurs (or tibias) first and both tibias (or femurs) at a later stage, (i.e not cross-leg). I do not do femoral lengthening with external fixators for cosmetic reasons.
2. The page says "two stages within 6 months," does that mean lengthening and consolidation is completed before starting on the next segments? Or can it be sooner? Trying to estimate the required time commitment.
For 6-7 cm lengthening on femur, the time to allow full weight bearing is approximately 6 months. This is the time when the second stage is done. With regards to time commitment, my aim is to have the patient completely finished, full-weight bearing and with the TSF frames removed within a year or 15 months (for 11 or 13 cm of lengthening respectively). The required time of stay in Athens at each stage is 2,5-3 months. With shorter lengthening the timings are shorter.
3. What is the recommended amount of lengthening per segment if I am 165cm?
The recommended amount per segment depends on your desired height goal, the current lengths of femur and tibia and and the length-ratio between femur and tibia. I usually suggest up to 6 cm in femur and 5 cm in tibia, but I can go for up to 7 cm and 6 cm respectively, after having appropriately counselled the patient.
4. How many limb procedures has Dr. Giotikas performed, both cosmetic and non-cosmetic patients?
I specialized in limb reconstruction at Cambridge University Hospital NHS foundation Trust in the United Kingdom since 2012 and I continue to work there in a permanent post. We are a team of three specialists there sharing a workload of approximately 100 limb reconstruction cases/year. These cases are pathological, infected or post-traumatic limb length discrepancy, bone defects and deformities and, to a lesser degree, constitutional short height related to bone dysplasias. We use TSF fixators, Precise nails and LRS systems for lengthening over nails or plates, depending on the case.
My involvement in these complex cases, especially on patients with serious injuries or infections (where the difficulty and complications increase because of the compromised soft tissue condition) has equipped me with significant experience on the surgical technique and on the overall management of these patients ( non-traumatic corticotomy of bone, frame configuration for increased stability, assessment of progression of regenerate, adjustment of lengthening rate, weight bearing progression, prevention of complications, counselling and coaching of the patients). Athens BJR is based on the transfer of the above experience to the field of cosmetic limb lengthening.
5. Are there any photos of CLL patients?
No, I am sorry, there aren't.
-
Makes sense everything the doc wrote, maybe is a good option, I like the idea of TSF frames.
-
Link: https://www.athensbjr.com/dr-dimitrios-giotikas.html
Great find Android. His credentials look rock solid, strong emphasis on safety, very affordable for PRECICE & TSF, fees include everything except living expenses.
Conversion to U.S. Dollar: 6-January-2018
TSF Tibia: $27,000
PRECICE Femur: $44,500
PRECICE Tibia: $46,850
Four Segment Cross Lengthening: $65,000
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmp9gaFGllc
-
Link: https://www.athensbjr.com/dr-dimitrios-giotikas.html (https://www.athensbjr.com/dr-dimitrios-giotikas.html)
Great find Android. His credentials look rock solid, strong emphasis on safety, very affordable for PRECICE & TSF, fees include everything except living expenses.
Actually found him through these very forums in this thread (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3796.msg75985#msg75985). He does look quite good, he's on my shortlist.
-
Is anyone considering this doctor? I think he seems like a great option.
-
1. Which methods are used for these procedures? Is it a mix of internal/external methods or are all segments the same (all external, all internal)?
I do four-segment-cross leg lengthening with Precise-2 nail in the femur and Taylor Spatial Frame (TSF) external fixator with clickers on the opposite leg. The main advantage of this approach is that patients are able to have a limb to stand and walk on with full weight bearing at all times during the lengthening and consolidation phases. This greatly helps with physiotherapy, muscle preservation and allows patients to continue with their usual daily activities with the least disturbance ( Looking after themselves, seeing friends, going out, even return to work, etc). If a patient is interested in four-segment lengthening with Precise nails only, I do both femurs (or tibias) first and both tibias (or femurs) at a later stage, (i.e not cross-leg). I do not do femoral lengthening with external fixators for cosmetic reasons.
Interesting approach for cross-lateral. Is Giotikas the only doctor mixing internals and externals for cross-lateral?
-
Interesting approach for cross-lateral. Is Giotikas the only doctor mixing internals and externals for cross-lateral?
I haven't seen it advertised as an option anywhere else. Though using TSF, it seems to be classic Ilizarov without LON/LATN (needs confirmation).
You could probably ask a clinic that offers both externals and internals if it's an option though, since Dr. Birkholtz has mentioned cross-lateral lengthening (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=137.msg65485#msg65485) in the past (and he offers both fixator types). While Dr. Paley doesn't offer it anywhere for CLL patients, Dr. Mahboubian's site still mentions TSF (http://www.llila.com/common-questions.php).
-
I posted the answers in my topic already http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5412.0 (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5412.0)
but as it also fits in here, here is my e-mail correspondence:
I sent my questions yesterday (On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 5:38 PM) and they responded today at 07:47 AM (that was sooner than I expected.)
1. How long do you have to wait for an appointment (consultation and surgery)?
You can see available dates for online consultations and consultations at Mediterraneo Hospital in Athens by clicking here. Generally the waiting time is approximately 2 weeks. For surgeries, we plan at least two months in advance. The shortest available surgery date for you, would be on 5 or 6 July 2018 and then in September.
2. Do you recommend staying in Greece for the whole lengthening process or is it still safe to travel back to Germany for consolidation?
We require that patients remain in Athens during the lengthening period only, but we allow them to return back home during the consolidation period. We provide a detailed schedule for physio, online consultations and x-rays for after their repatriation.
3. I am interested in the cross-leg lengthening method. I have read from another doctor that by doing externals for tibia the risk of permanent knee pain (due to the nail insertion and removal) is lesser. Why do you recommend the Precise 2 for tibias?
Cross-leg lengthening is in our opinion the best strategy for patients aiming for more than 8 cm of lengthening. Anterior knee pain is a rare (less than 3%) risk of tibia nailing; even when it happens it tends to improve gradually. We offer the option of Precise-2 in tibia for patients who do not want external ring fixators.
4. Does it make a difference concerning the duration of the healing process which method someone chooses?
No, it doesn't.
5. I am 1,60m how long would it take for me to walk normally again if I aim about 10cm more?
For 10 cm of lengthening in two stages with cross-leg lengthening it will take approximately 9 to 10 months to walk without walking aides. During all this time you will be able to walk independently with crutches and full weight bearing on the leg that has the ring fixator frame.
6. How many CLL patients have you had so far?
Dr Dimitrios Giotikas discusses all questions about his clinical experience, including the volume of cases, during a free introductory 15 min consultation via Skype or phone, which you can book now.
7. I have read about MESKA (Mediterranean rehabilitation Centre), how long can you stay there and how much does it cost per month? Are there inexpensive places a patient can stay safely close to your clinic?
MESKA costs approximately 200Euro/day but includes full board meals, hydrotherapy, daily physiotherapy, transportations etc. There are indeed inexpensive options for accommodation (hotel rooms and Airbnb apartments) near to our clinic.
-
1. Other doctors say that often times Achilles tendo lengthening is necessary. They charge you extra money. How is that handled with you? And is the frame removal included in your price?
Thank you for your email. Answering to your questions:
We do not do Achilles lengthening as it almost always results in some degree of permanent loss of strength of the calf muscles which patients feel as weakness during their walking or their standing on their toes. In our opinion it is not a "fair trade" to trade function for lengthening. If equinus deformity (ballarina foot) is encountered, we treat it with a temporary extension of the frame to the foot during the lengthening phase. This method very reliably stretches the tendon and restores the position of the foot. It is a rather minor procedure, which is done as a day case, but it requires anaesthesia and extra frame parts so there is an associated additional cost of 1000 for one leg and 1500 for bilateral done simultaneously. The need for this procedure will be assessed before your main lengthening surgery. The frame removal is not included in the price as many patients choose to have them removed in their country rather than traveling back to us. The cost for frame removal with us is 950 Euro
2. Is the 4-5months recovery with TSF an average because with HEF for example I was told that they take off your frames 7-11months later.
The timing for frame removal depends on the lengthening goal, patient's age and healing rate.The numbers mentioned is an average (plus/minus 6 weeks).
3. Do I need some kind of VISA for staying multiple months (4-5months) in Greece as a German citizen?
For 5 cm of lengthening, we need you to stay in Greece for a minimum of 2.5 months. Greece is a member state of the EU so as a German citizen you do not need any special Visa or residency status and you can stay for as much time as you wish.
We remain at your disposal for any further information and assistance.
-
Τhe answer about atl make me believe that Giotikas is a respectable doctor who knows what he is talking about.
He is completely right about what he says and I really wonder how doctors like Catagni and Pili still perform atl which destroys feet capabilities.
I would have a close look to that doctor. He seems very promising and it is time to trust new doctors with better prices but still on first world countries (like Greece) because, except from USA where Paley and Rozbruch are really the top doctors in the world, there aren't any doctors who personally I'd trust completely for internal femurs, especially for their prices.
So it is time to give a chance to new, promising doctors like him who seem to really know what they are talking about.
We'll see.
-
Yes, I feel also safer with Greece and plan to make an appointment soon.
I forgot to post this e-mail exchange which fits in here
I asked them about the recovery time and about proportions:
1. With bilateral TSFs for 5cm lengthening in tibias the estimated time for frame removal is 4 to 5 months. You will be able to walk with the frames and with full weight bearing since immediately after your surgery.
2. With bilateral Precise-2 nail for 5cm lengthening in femurs the estimated time for walking without crutches is 4 months. Until then you will need to use wheelchair and walker or crutches. The same applies to tibias with precise nail, but tibias may take a bit more until walking without crutches (4 to 5 months)
3. I don't expect that your proportions will look strange after lengthening the tibias and before doing the femurs. In any case, we use Athena Method -a method developed and presented by Dr Dimitrios Giotikas- to accurately inform our patients about their proportions before and after the lengthening. So,you will know exactly, how each cm of lengthening in tibia and femur is going to affect your body proportions.
-
(http://i67.tinypic.com/160r9lw.jpg)
-
Hi friends ! ;D
I enclose the answer given to me by the doctor's service concerning the operation of both limbs (femur and tibia) on both legs (54k).
They answered me very quickly (one day), I find it really nice of them. Some of my questions are probably trivial for some of you but in case some ask them I prefer the posted.
1 - First, I would like to know what physical condition is required to be eligible for this type of operation? I am not overweight, but I do not know if I have the muscular mass required for such surgery.
"The muscle condition is not a prerequisite for cosmetic limb lengthening (CLL). Contraindications for CLL are: Morbid obesity, Smoking, Immuno-suppression, Chronic infection, Diabetes, Psychiatric disorders with poor compliance, Anaesthetic related contraindications. "
-> I find it pretty cool, unlike the method of doctor Guichet, we do not need to be an athlete to get surgery!
2 - Can you confirm that the final price for this type of intervention (cross lateral) is well 54.000 euros TTC?
" Prices shown are TTC."
3 - I would like to understand that it is preferential to have surgery done externally or internally the tibia? Which of his methods allows for faster recovery and no future pain? On the other hand, I'm not sure I understood what "PRECICE 1" and "PRECICE2" mean?
"Both external and internal fixation give satisfactory results in tibia. The choice in each case is based on patient's preference, cost considerations and appropriate counselling by Dr Giotikas about the pros and cons of each method. Precise 1 was the first version of the nail which is not routinely used anymore. Precise 2 is the subsequent improved version of the nail."
->I think I discuss this part in more detail with the doctor during a consultation. Indeed, I would like to know better the advantages of this or that method.
4 - I could see that many had complications with other doctors for the operation of a single limb (tibia or femur). Your service proposes to operate both successively, is that not more risky?
"Four segment lengthening (either cross-leg or not) is the only solution for people who want to go beyond 8 cm and consent to accept the related risk after having received appropriate counselling by Dr Dimitrios Giotikas. It is obviously statistically riskier than having lengthening of femur or tibia only."
->It was an obvious and logical answer to the question but other service of LL would not have had this frankness I think.
5 - How long does it take to finally get surgery and consolidate the 4 members to operate? While removing the fixers éxternes of the TSF?
"he actual timings depend on the lengthening goal to be achieved. We generally plan to have the patients back to their lives without frames within 12 months from first surgery."
6 - Finally how long does it take to get a date of intervention after the consultation at athénes?
"Two months, but sometimes can be sooner."
I then add questions that I will send you answers at parties!
1 - In case of possible physical complications following the operation. Should we take charge of any additional operations / treatments that this would induce?
2 - The payment of the entire process must be done before the transaction or it can be staggered?
3 - From what I could understand. You operate initially 2 segments (namely the tibia and the femur) of one leg then the other one after consolidation. (I may have misunderstood) Would not it be better to operate for example the two femur together then the two shins?
4 - All preoperative examinations are made during the initial consultation at athénes?
If you have other ideas of questions that I do not ask yet I'm interested! I intend to book an online service of 15 minutes to try a first approach. ;D
-
Hi friends ! ;D
I enclose the answer given to me by the doctor's service concerning the operation of both limbs (femur and tibia) on both legs (54k).
They answered me very quickly (one day), I find it really nice of them. Some of my questions are probably trivial for some of you but in case some ask them I prefer the posted.
1 - First, I would like to know what physical condition is required to be eligible for this type of operation? I am not overweight, but I do not know if I have the muscular mass required for such surgery.
"The muscle condition is not a prerequisite for cosmetic limb lengthening (CLL). Contraindications for CLL are: Morbid obesity, Smoking, Immuno-suppression, Chronic infection, Diabetes, Psychiatric disorders with poor compliance, Anaesthetic related contraindications. "
-> I find it pretty cool, unlike the method of doctor Guichet, we do not need to be an athlete to get surgery!
2 - Can you confirm that the final price for this type of intervention (cross lateral) is well 54.000 euros TTC?
" Prices shown are TTC."
3 - I would like to understand that it is preferential to have surgery done externally or internally the tibia? Which of his methods allows for faster recovery and no future pain? On the other hand, I'm not sure I understood what "PRECICE 1" and "PRECICE2" mean?
"Both external and internal fixation give satisfactory results in tibia. The choice in each case is based on patient's preference, cost considerations and appropriate counselling by Dr Giotikas about the pros and cons of each method. Precise 1 was the first version of the nail which is not routinely used anymore. Precise 2 is the subsequent improved version of the nail."
->I think I discuss this part in more detail with the doctor during a consultation. Indeed, I would like to know better the advantages of this or that method.
4 - I could see that many had complications with other doctors for the operation of a single limb (tibia or femur). Your service proposes to operate both successively, is that not more risky?
"Four segment lengthening (either cross-leg or not) is the only solution for people who want to go beyond 8 cm and consent to accept the related risk after having received appropriate counselling by Dr Dimitrios Giotikas. It is obviously statistically riskier than having lengthening of femur or tibia only."
->It was an obvious and logical answer to the question but other service of LL would not have had this frankness I think.
5 - How long does it take to finally get surgery and consolidate the 4 members to operate? While removing the fixers éxternes of the TSF?
"he actual timings depend on the lengthening goal to be achieved. We generally plan to have the patients back to their lives without frames within 12 months from first surgery."
6 - Finally how long does it take to get a date of intervention after the consultation at athénes?
"Two months, but sometimes can be sooner."
I then add questions that I will send you answers at parties!
1 - In case of possible physical complications following the operation. Should we take charge of any additional operations / treatments that this would induce?
2 - The payment of the entire process must be done before the transaction or it can be staggered?
3 - From what I could understand. You operate initially 2 segments (namely the tibia and the femur) of one leg then the other one after consolidation. (I may have misunderstood) Would not it be better to operate for example the two femur together then the two shins?
4 - All preoperative examinations are made during the initial consultation at athénes?
If you have other ideas of questions that I do not ask yet I'm interested! I intend to book an online service of 15 minutes to try a first approach. ;D
That's great man. I also plan to do the free online consultation.
-
Here's my list of questions I want to ask him next months, but if you want you can ask some of them before (at your online consultation), let me then know which one you chose:
1. How many patients did you have concerning limb lengthening. How many CLL patients did you have so far?
2. How many cross leg lengthenings have you done so far?
3. Is cross leg lengthening far more dangerous than doing tibias or femurs separate?
4. What are the most common risks with each method you offer? And which ones occured to your former patients?
5. What will I be able to do during lengthening and consolidation (walking, driving, sightseeing, sitting for a longer time?)
6. How close should the appartment I'll rent be to the clinic?
7. Will the Physio therapist visit me at my place of stay?
8. After the 10 weeks of PT you offer, how long and how often per week should I hire a PT?
9. Are there PT's in Athens you recommend after the surgery? (who aren't too expensive)
10. Is there something I can do before surgery to improve my recovery?
11. What kind of doctors are able to remove such frames if you choose to do it in your home country?
12. Do you have an emergency number in case something happens?
13. Did you notice if a certain amount of lengthening (cm) is more safe?
14. I have read that having longer tibias can be bad for your health, so should I start femurs first or will it make no difference if the lengthening of the other segments will be done about a year afterwards?
15. If someone does cross LL how long after the first surgery will the second will be done?
16. I am just 117 lbs. Does this make a difference concerning recovery and mobility?
17. Will it be worth waiting for Stryde for femurs ? Will it cost a lot more?
18. What can you do if for example with Cross LL the first surgery+lengthening+consolidation goes fine but the second time complications occur, wouldn't you have a discrepancy if you have to stop lengthening?
19. Can the so called "duck ass" or "ballerina foot" be avoided somehow?
20. If I go home for consolidation phase whom should I contact If something happens like infection? What kind of doctors in my home country would be able to treat that?
21. Does the frame removal cost 950€ in total or for each frame? (if you do cross ll )
-
excellent work guys.
I am at 165cm and want to do also 10cm on femurs(5/6) and tibia(5/4), just like you guys. My main question would be, in case everything goes well, how much time from operation till walking unaided/resuming normal activities?
-
I am at 165cm and want to do also 10cm on femurs(5/6) and tibia(5/4), just like you guys. My main question would be, in case everything goes well, how much time from operation till walking unaided/resuming normal activities?
That has been answered previously (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5091.msg79890#msg79890):
With regards to time commitment, my aim is to have the patient completely finished, full-weight bearing and with the TSF frames removed within a year or 15 months (for 11 or 13 cm of lengthening respectively).
-
Here are the answers to my questions (always super responsive).
1 - In case of possible physical complications following the operation. Should we take charge of any additional operations / treatments that this would induce?
"Although we try to reduce the cost as low as possible in the treatment of an adverse event, there may be additional cost if unexpected interventions are required. We generally advise our patients to have an additional 4000 euros for such a case."
2 - The payment of the entire process must be done before the transaction or it can be staggered?
Payments are paid in full tbefore the surgery date.
3 - From what I could understand. You operate initially 2 segments (namely the tibia and the femur) of one leg then the other one after consolidation. (I may have misunderstood) Would not it be better to operate for example the two femur together then the two shins?
"The main advantage of the four segment cross-leg is that it allows full weight bearing on one side through out the whole procedure. Doing both tibias (or femurs) first and then the other parts can also be done."
4 - All preoperative examinations are made during the initial consultation at athénes?
"Yes, they are."
@Great321 Thank you so much !! I find your questions super perceptive and precise. I did not think about it but many of them are important.
I will ask these 5: 2-4-5-10-18 and tell you what I give as an answer.
Subsequently I think to agree to an online appointment for a first approach ..
Thank you all!
-
That has been answered previously (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5091.msg79890#msg79890):
yup, thx Android.. was hoping he would offer to have the second operation much sooner than 6 months...
-
Dr. Giotikas offers a free 15 min Skype consultation.
Appointment Link: https://www.athensbjr.com/book-an-appointment.html
Anyone interested in limb lengthening should take full advantage of this great opportunity to gain knowledge and insight from a doctor who at this point appears to be the best option in Europe.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/fejkhl.jpg)
-
(https://scontent-sit4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22279947_1925095384182458_2514833983654579246_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=57eceea0071edacc4220172c1a8469ec&oe=5B8430F8)
(https://scontent-sit4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10628264_884909944867679_6515653653013818822_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=398f160b3abf44a315050ecd1fd7d630&oe=5B80EB6E)
-
1 - How many cm can you gain on both femur without taking big risks?
" Up to 7cm in femurs is considered relatively safe. "
2 - Is there something I can do before surgery to improve my recovery?
" We provide a pre-operative muscle stretching program to help patients get used to perform this exercise routine daily and to improve their muscle condition."
3 - What will I be able to do during lengthening and consolidation (walking, driving, sightseeing, sitting for a longer time?). If I only make stryde on the femur.
"The exact weight bearing protocol of Stryde is yet to be determined. It will depend on patient's body weight and, most importantly, on the nail's clinical performance during the first months of its clinical use. Based on current evidence, I expect that 3 to 6 weeks after surgery most patients will be able to walk and drive.
We remain at your disposal for any further information and assistance."
-
The thing im concerned about him is his experience. I hope he is the real deal because there dont seem to be any safe option in europe except him and maybe Pili.
-
The thing im concerned about him is his experience. I hope he is the real deal because there dont seem to be any safe option in europe except him and maybe Pili.
Pili isn't safe.
I'm guessing our greek doctor is more experiened in external fixators having been involved in many deformity correction cases.
-
For my part I intend to have surgery before January so I'll make a complete return.
In other words, I do not see orther dr to trust (in Europe) with a good service / price ratio.
-
I will most likely choose him during this summer as well. I'll have an appointment with him on the 11th of June, we'll see.
-
I booked a surgery with Dr. Dimitrios in Oct and Aug with Dr. Lee in S. Korea. I still can't decide which dr I will give the green light. I had LON done with Dr. Lee last year. He was a great doctor. I am almost back to normal now just still a little stiff.
-
I booked a surgery with Dr. Dimitrios in Oct and Aug with Dr. Lee in S. Korea. I still can't decide which dr I will give the green light. I had LON done with Dr. Lee last year. He was a great doctor. I am almost back to normal now just still a little stiff.
Those are two good choices. Don't think you can go wrong with either. The real question is why in the world would you have surgery in August or October with Precice and spend months in a wheelchair, when you can just wait for them to get Stryde and walk two weeks after surgery?
-
I booked a surgery with Dr. Dimitrios in Oct and Aug with Dr. Lee in S. Korea. I still can't decide which dr I will give the green light. I had LON done with Dr. Lee last year. He was a great doctor. I am almost back to normal now just still a little stiff.
I'd be more careful with Giotikas. We still have had no diaries of him.
These forums have went through "phases" with certain doctors many times in the past, at least according to what I've seen. Sarin had a "phase" in the old forums due to those special circumstances, and Guichet at one point was considered one of the best options. Sarin is called a butcher now, and Guichet is discredited.
It's definitely good that Giotikas doesn't recommend ATL and has supposedly worked with deformity correction (didn't see confirmation of that in this thread). If I wanted to be on the safer side, I'd go with Dr. Dongoon Lee in your case. Do let us know your impressions after October, though! Giotikas is still a mystery.
-
I only have time for this year. I will ask when he will have that new nail. If it in this year. I would love to get that new nail.
-
Honestly, I really don't mind being in a wheelchair for 2 months. I really got used to it when I had LON done in Korea. What I hate wasn't the wheelchair. It was the weight of the frame, pain and sleepless night.
-
Honestly, I really don't mind being in a wheelchair for 2 months. I really got used to it when I had LON done in Korea. What I hate wasn't the wheelchair. It was the weight of the frame, pain and sleepless night.
You really should read more about STRYDE (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5507.0) before you make a decision.
-
He looks like a great option.
-
Yeah, I've read a lot about STRYDE. I asked them about STRYDE. They said will be available in 2019. I might just do it this year or wait next year. I have to make a decision soon.
-
Hi friends ! :)
I come back to you following my telephone conversation with the doctor and to provide some details about the person and servis offer. 8)
First of all, he really seems to know what he's talking about. He is very friendly, very patient (my english is bad ahah). It really inspires confidence and I advise you to take even a telephone appointment if you have questions.
For my part, I think to start with TSF on tibia (5cm) in November then do Stryde on femur (8cm) in a row.
According to Dr. Stryde should be operational in January. Currently tests are done on patients (not on the validity of the treatment because we know that it works) but rather on the procedure to follow later.
In addition, in terms of price for stryde (because I know that this is what we are very interested in ahah ;D) the doctor specify that it is surely 5000 euros more (it's an average but it's already giving a order of idea).
So for TSF (shins) + Stryde (Femur) we should get by for 60,000 euros. What is to my taste (if all goes well) a very good price for + 10cm.
As for preparing physically before the operation. A program is provided to strengthen muscle mass (if I understand everything).
In other words, he has already operated many patients for cosmetic reasons.
As for the exact number, it is rather complicated to give because of the internet connection that there is in Greece (cut it often). :'( . Nevertheless we do not have a priori to do to a novice. He also told me all the operations he could perform in non-cosmetic cases.
Frames (TSF) are removed around 6 months after the start of treatment (which I understand).
Furthermore ! If you wish to do + 10cm the doctor to was clear on the fact that it is impossible to do this only on one limb.
Femur -> 8cm max advisor
Tibias -> 6.5cm max advisor
In other words, if you do not want to do stryde and do Precice 2 + TSF. You will need to operate the shin of one leg with the femur of the other. Then conversely. (if I understood everything) In case of complications there will be no asymmetry.
For my part, I sincerely hope that the price of stryde will not exceed 5000 euros or not too much. 60.000 euros I find (and other also I think) that very well for a gain also raise. I am going to athenes in September for my first physical appointment.
HOWEVER, let us be aware that we have not had any feedback on this forum. So take the time to inform yourself and forge your opinion :)
-
Thanks for sharing AlphaX!
-
No worries it's normal! This forum has so much help that I do not know how to thank.
I hope I'm not wrong about my choice but I'm pretty confident.
-
Do 5 cm in tibiaz and 8 cm in femur is a bit dangerous and unnecessary because you are reaching the recommended limit "safe" but it is not always good to reach the limit, only if your body allows it.
I think if you do 4.5 cm in tibiaz and 6.5 in femur, you will be fine. Well everything depends on how your body resists.
Dr Giotikas seems a good option for price and also has good knowledge.
Thanks for the info!
-
Why do fully external tibia and then stryde femur. Why not just do stryde tibia and then stryde femur. It's not that much more money considering you don't have to wear those bulky frames for half a year. Much more convenient that way for walking sleeping showering and everything else.
-
Yes +11 or +12 no matter the main one is to take the least risk. I think that as you told him how much of each one's body. But anyway both of them suit me :)
Yes you're absolutely right I thought about it! I will send an email tomorrow to know if it is possible to do stryde on tibia in the month of November and how much it will cost! I will give you the answers !
Thanks for you’re help !
-
“ Stryde nail will be commercially available in the European Union no earlier than the beginning of next year. The exact prices are pending to be announced.”
-
Do you think that with stryde, as it provides you to hold your weigth, you will have a better bone growth, because you could walk soon??
Sorry my english
-
Why do fully external tibia and then stryde femur. Why not just do stryde tibia and then stryde femur. It's not that much more money considering you don't have to wear those bulky frames for half a year. Much more convenient that way for walking sleeping showering and everything else.
The last part is true, but it is considerably more money. 20k extra to save extra is something i'd consider quite a huge difference.
-
Hi can anyone advise roughly what difference in time this new stryde nail could make to returning to normal?
I understand weight bearing should be possible at an earlier stage but what does that mean exactly?
If it allows weight bearing after 4 -6 weeks does that just mean you will be using crutches still or will you be able to almost walk almost normal after this period and still be adjusting for bone growth?
In comparison to precise 2 if i wanted to lengthen the max recommended on femur which i understand to be 7cm to 8cm, with the stryde when can i expect to be walking without crutches?
-
In other words, he has already operated many patients for cosmetic reasons.
As for the exact number, it is rather complicated to give because of the internet connection that there is in Greece (cut it often).
??
-
The online consultation is via skype and the connection was not very good. In other words, I could not hear the exact numbers! Sorry
-
??
exactly my thought...
-
The online consultation is via skype and the connection was not very good. In other words, I could not hear the exact numbers! Sorry
??
exactly my thought myloginacc...
-
I’ve had my consultation with Dr. Giotikas. Here are my thoughts about my experience in Athens in general before:
The city seems nice, especially from above. Its history and its ancient buildings are quite interesting. Even though it was 33°C it didn’t feel that hot because of its location close to the sea. Anyway some roads were quite slippery and some old buildings let the city appear underdeveloped in some parts. Until midnight there were loud noises from construction work at one night during my stay and some few (luckily not very valuable) things were stolen from me. (So be careful! Don’t leave your things in a hostel for example)
The Mediterraneo hospital is about 30-40 minutes away from the city center. I took a taxi for 13,80€. The hospital looked modern from outside. Inside it was also modern and clean but compared to some German hospitals some things could be improved I think. The floors were narrow, you couldn’t take any elevator, it had to be a certain one (which you first had to find), there were only a few sanitizers/disinfectants in the places I’ve been (while in Germany you can find them in every restroom and every room and floors).
Finally, I was waiting for Dr. Giotikas. When he arrived we shook hands, he greeted me friendly and asked how I like Athens. Then he explained to me what I can expect from the consultation.
(Ct scans, his explanation of what is possible, my questions, his examination of my legs concerning flexibility) Before the consultation I sent 140€ and I was told that I would have to pay another 120€ for CT scans (either in cash or by debit card) but instead of 120€ I was only asked for 42€ by the receptionist after the CT scans (which were taken somewhere else in the building). Afterwards I went to Dr. Giotikas again. He wanted to know why I want to do LL. After I told him my reasons, he assured me that he understands my reasons of wanting to reach my full potential.
Things I asked and his answers (not exactly what he said, only from my memory, in reality he answered more thoroughly)
1. How many patients did you have concerning LL?
150 (per year), mostly for medical reasons (he explained which ones) but also cosmetic ones
2. What are the most common risks? Will the risks with Stryde be similar to the ones with Precise 2?
Ballerina (he explained the method with which they cure ballerina and said again that ATL is something he doesn’t do since every patient after ATL complains about loss of strength)
and duck ass (I forgot to ask how this is cured or he forgot to answer)
Infection of the pin sites (cured by antibiotics)
Other risks: this blood thing (sorry I forgot the name, anyway he gives you blood thinners), and if something is wrong with the nail, if it breaks (rarely though)for example the patient would have to pay for replacement (or if it happens by the end of lengthening they can replace it with something else, a cheaper option) he also talked about fat embolism but I can't remember if he said what measurements will be taken then.
the risks with Stryde will probably similar to the ones with Precise 2, probably less risk of nail breakage
3. What will I be able to do during lengthening and consolidation?
In the beginning sitting for a long time would be difficult. Every two weeks during your 2-2,5 months (2 months stay in Athens with TSF, 2,5months with Precise/Stryde) stay you will have to go to the clinic again by a special taxi (costs about 30€). With Stryde you will be in a wheelchair for the first 3-5weeks. (He isn’t very optimistic so far about crutches after 3 weeks already, patients should expect maybe 5 weeks to be safe) He will know more when experiences have been made in the U.S.) In the beginning you should hire a caretaker (for cleaning and cooking) until you can bear weight.
4. How close should the apartment I’ll rent be to the clinic, can your clinic help me with searching one when it’s time?
It can be anywhere. You can look for one and Dr. Giotikas secretary helps to check out if it fits, if it’s available (as the bathroom can’t be too small, you probably need an elevator…)
5. Will the PT visit me at my place of stay?
Half of the sessions PT will take place at the rehabilitation center (modern, with swimming and stuff). The transport from your apartment to the center is included in the price. And for the other sessions the PT (I’m not sure but I think) will come to your place of stay.
6. After 10 weeks of PT how long and how often per week should I hire a PT?
Dr. Giotikas said that afterwards I probably won’t need PT anymore.
7. Is there sth I can do before surgery to improve my recovery?
He offers a plan of training your flexibility 2 months before surgery. He is aware that theoretically it won’t make a change but he believes (or speaks from experience) that the muscles are trained that way (I can’t really express what he exactly said) and that the patient is getting used to those exercises (the discipline)…and all in one it makes recovery easier.
8. What kind of doctors are able to remove such frames if you choose to do it in your home country?
Any orthopedic center. But if you want you can do it in Athens for 950-1000€.
9. Did you notice if a certain amount of lengthening is safer?
Yes, the less you lengthen the less risks. He thinks it’s safe to do 7cm with femur and 5cm(not sure anymore) with tibia. To AlphaX he said the limits are 8cm and 6,5cm.
10. I have read that having longer femurs is safer concerning risks of arthritis for example.
First he said, there is no evidence for that. Then I said that it was a study. He answered that during his studies arthritis was the main thing he reasearched about and there are other things more responsible for the risk of arthritis. He created his own way to measure proportions by having evaluated thousands of U.S. soldiers. So he can tell you if you’d be still in the normal range after LL.
11. I asked him If it would be better to do LL with a pause of one year inbetween.
No, it doesn’t matter. He thinks that it’s better to finish this project in one year, since after the first surgery you wouldn’t be happy about the few cm gained. From the health perspective he doesn’t see any concern, your body would be able to recover.
12. I’m just 53/54kg. Does this make a difference concerning recovery and mobility?
Not really. No matter how thin you are, you would still have to wait as much until weight bearing as other patients. It might decrease the risk of nail breakage but there are other factors that could still cause the nail breakage.
13. Do you have an emergency number, someone I can contact if sth happens
Yes
14. Will I have to pay the follow up X-Rays?
Yes, they will probably only need like 4 more X-Rays (each about 30€).
15. Is my bone big enough for Stryde?
He measured my bone sizes with the help of the CT scan results. I probably need the smaller nail but I can still walk with crutches after 3-5weeks with Stryde.
16. How much will Stryde + TSF cost and when is it available?
Around 60.000€, maybe 2.000€ more. Available in the beginning of next year. (He didn’t mention if he is sure about that or not)
17. Is one method more painful than the other?
He doesn’t think so. Pain is subjective, too.
Other things that were said without a direct question. (At home I measured my wingspan and torso and thought they were both a few cm longer. Dr. Giotikas measured them (not precisely though even though he measured my wingspan twice) and the results were shorter than mine. So apparently my wingspan is about as long as my height. And overall after LL I would be in the normal range but not that close to the average. He said that someone with a trained eye, like he and other LLers would maybe notice the difference but other people would probably not. So I have to decide wether proportions are more important or if I want to lengthen a little less. Like 9cm. But I can’t imagine that 1 cm more or less would make such a big difference. And he said that 6cm femur and 4cm tibia would be good but we could still play with the numbers.
He reminded me once friendly if I have more questions since it’s getting late.
He examined my legs. My flexibility is good. He doesn’t expect ballerina. And IT bands are only a little bit tight on my left leg but it doesn’t need to be operated. Finally, we were done.
Dr. Giotikas said that if I have any more questions I forgot I can e-mail him/his secretary. He will send me a summary next week of the consultations where it’s written what was said. (even though I’m wondering how he remembers everything)
I arrived at 11AM (waited for 20-30minutes inbetween) and left at around 3PM.
After all…I have mixed feelings of what to do. TSF and then Stryde in one year. Or first Stryde (seems to be a lot easier to handle...and then wait after university to do TSF)
-
1. How many patients did you have concerning LL?
150, mostly for medical reasons (he explained which ones) but also cosmetic ones
Are you sure that he only had 150 cases in total? During my online consultation, if I am not mistaken, he told me 150 cases/year for the last 5 years. Either that or I misunderstood.
9. Did you notice if a certain amount of lengthening is safer?
Yes, the less you lengthen the less risks. He thinks it’s safe to do 7cm with femur and 5cm(not sure anymore) with tibia. To AlphaX he said the limits are 8cm and 6,5cm.
Do you mean you're not sure about the 5cm or he's not sure? It's surprising that he said 6.5cm to AlphaX.
-
He might have said 150/year.
I'm not sure about the 5cm. But I'm pretty sure he didn't say 6,5cm either. I guess AlphaX wanted to know the limit. I asked about what is the safest in his opinion.
I don't know either if he differentiated between me and AlphaX as he is 13cm taller than me.
-
He might have said 150/year.
I'm not sure about the 5cm. But I'm pretty sure he didn't say 6,5cm either. I guess AlphaX wanted to know the limit. I asked about what is the safest in his opinion.
I don't know either if he differentiated between me and AlphaX as he is 13cm taller than me.
So he's only 173cm.
By the way, 150/year and 150 in his career are very different.
How's your impression of him overall? Do you think he's as good as/even better than Paley?
-
Yes I asked about the Limit ! He told me that 6.5 femur and 4.5 tibia is safe !
-
of course that's a difference, I edited my post
I don't know Paley and I don't know any patients who did it with Dr. Giotikas so I can't say. I guess Paley is better as he is more experienced but I can't afford him. Dr. Giotikas doesn't seem like he wants to make you poor as possible unlike Paley whose price is far beyond reason in my opinion.
Giotikas is well behaved, speaks fluently English, talks calmly and not loudly, commutes between UK and Athens other than that I don't know much about him. He seems to know what he is talking about but I didn't ask him about the surgery techniques as I don't understand them so he didn't have to use a lot of medical words..maybe he adapted his language to mine
Maybe the next one who will talk to Giotikas could ask if he can get in touch with a former patient.
it is 60.000€ for Stryde and TSF together..I edited in my initial post, without TSF it's probably the current Precise 2 price plus 5.000€
-
what I think is a little bit weird is the fact that he suggested that doing both surgeries in one year is better. I don't know if he is after the money or if he is being honest.
On the other hand even if I decide to do both in one year doesn't mean that he can force me to to do second surgery with him and he knows that
-
what I think is a little bit weird is the fact that he suggested that doing both surgeries in one year is better. I don't know if he is after the money or if he is being honest.
On the other hand even if I decide to do both in one year doesn't mean that he can't force me to to do second surgery with him and he knows that
How is he gonna force you?
-
haha that was a typo ...he can't force me and he knows that so he might just have said his honest opinion without thinking about his profit...
but I mentioned to him that I'm not sure whether to start in October with the surgery or with university..he might have wanted to convince me to at least start with TSF
-
haha that was a typo ...he can't force me and he knows that so he might just have said his honest opinion without thinking about his profit...
but I mentioned to him that I'm not sure whether to start in October with the surgery or with university..he might have wanted to convince me to at least start with TSF
Yeah he might just be honest about that because you will save a lot of time by doing all in one year.
Paley even do both segments within just 3 weeks apart. So 6 months sounds reasonable to me.
-
I’ve had my consultation with Dr. Giotikas. Here are my thoughts about my experience in Athens in general before:
The city seems nice, especially from above. Its history and its ancient buildings are quite interesting. Even though it was 33°C it didn’t feel that hot because of its location close to the sea. Anyway some roads were quite slippery and some old buildings let the city appear underdeveloped in some parts. Until midnight there were loud noises from construction work at one night during my stay and some few (luckily not very valuable) things were stolen from me. (So be careful! Don’t leave your things in a hostel for example)
The Mediterraneo hospital is about 30-40 minutes away from the city center. I took a taxi for 13,80€. The hospital looked modern from outside. Inside it was also modern and clean but compared to some German hospitals some things could be improved I think. The floors were narrow, you couldn’t take any elevator, it had to be a certain one (which you first had to find), there were only a few sanitizers/disinfectants in the places I’ve been (while in Germany you can find them in every restroom and every room and floors).
Finally, I was waiting for Dr. Giotikas. When he arrived we shook hands, he greeted me friendly and asked how I like Athens. Then he explained to me what I can expect from the consultation.
(Ct scans, his explanation of what is possible, my questions, his examination of my legs concerning flexibility) Before the consultation I sent 140€ and I was told that I would have to pay another 120€ for CT scans (either in cash or by debit card) but instead of 120€ I was only asked for 42€ by the receptionist after the CT scans (which were taken somewhere else in the building). Afterwards I went to Dr. Giotikas again. He wanted to know why I want to do LL. After I told him my reasons, he assured me that he understands my reasons of wanting to reach my full potential.
Things I asked and his answers (not exactly what he said, only from my memory, in reality he answered more thoroughly)
1. How many patients did you have concerning LL?
150 (per year), mostly for medical reasons (he explained which ones) but also cosmetic ones
2. What are the most common risks? Will the risks with Stryde be similar to the ones with Precise 2?
Ballerina (he explained the method with which they cure ballerina and said again that ATL is something he doesn’t do since every patient after ATL complains about loss of strength)
and duck ass (I forgot to ask how this is cured or he forgot to answer)
Infection of the pin sites (cured by antibiotics)
Other risks: this blood thing (sorry I forgot the name, anyway he gives you blood thinners), and if something is wrong with the nail, if it breaks (rarely though)for example the patient would have to pay for replacement (or if it happens by the end of lengthening they can replace it with something else, a cheaper option) he also talked about fat embolism but I can't remember if he said what measurements will be taken then.
the risks with Stryde will probably similar to the ones with Precise 2, probably less risk of nail breakage
3. What will I be able to do during lengthening and consolidation?
In the beginning sitting for a long time would be difficult. Every two weeks during your 2-2,5 months (2 months stay in Athens with TSF, 2,5months with Precise/Stryde) stay you will have to go to the clinic again by a special taxi (costs about 30€). With Stryde you will be in a wheelchair for the first 3-5weeks. (He isn’t very optimistic so far about crutches after 3 weeks already, patients should expect maybe 5 weeks to be safe) He will know more when experiences have been made in the U.S.) In the beginning you should hire a caretaker (for cleaning and cooking) until you can bear weight.
4. How close should the apartment I’ll rent be to the clinic, can your clinic help me with searching one when it’s time?
It can be anywhere. You can look for one and Dr. Giotikas secretary helps to check out if it fits, if it’s available (as the bathroom can’t be too small, you probably need an elevator…)
5. Will the PT visit me at my place of stay?
Half of the sessions PT will take place at the rehabilitation center (modern, with swimming and stuff). The transport from your apartment to the center is included in the price. And for the other sessions the PT (I’m not sure but I think) will come to your place of stay.
6. After 10 weeks of PT how long and how often per week should I hire a PT?
Dr. Giotikas said that afterwards I probably won’t need PT anymore.
7. Is there sth I can do before surgery to improve my recovery?
He offers a plan of training your flexibility 2 months before surgery. He is aware that theoretically it won’t make a change but he believes (or speaks from experience) that the muscles are trained that way (I can’t really express what he exactly said) and that the patient is getting used to those exercises (the discipline)…and all in one it makes recovery easier.
8. What kind of doctors are able to remove such frames if you choose to do it in your home country?
Any orthopedic center. But if you want you can do it in Athens for 950-1000€.
9. Did you notice if a certain amount of lengthening is safer?
Yes, the less you lengthen the less risks. He thinks it’s safe to do 7cm with femur and 5cm(not sure anymore) with tibia. To AlphaX he said the limits are 8cm and 6,5cm.
10. I have read that having longer femurs is safer concerning risks of arthritis for example.
First he said, there is no evidence for that. Then I said that it was a study. He answered that during his studies arthritis was the main thing he reasearched about and there are other things more responsible for the risk of arthritis. He created his own way to measure proportions by having evaluated thousands of U.S. soldiers. So he can tell you if you’d be still in the normal range after LL.
11. I asked him If it would be better to do LL with a pause of one year inbetween.
No, it doesn’t matter. He thinks that it’s better to finish this project in one year, since after the first surgery you wouldn’t be happy about the few cm gained. From the health perspective he doesn’t see any concern, your body would be able to recover.
12. I’m just 53/54kg. Does this make a difference concerning recovery and mobility?
Not really. No matter how thin you are, you would still have to wait as much until weight bearing as other patients. It might decrease the risk of nail breakage but there are other factors that could still cause the nail breakage.
13. Do you have an emergency number, someone I can contact if sth happens
Yes
14. Will I have to pay the follow up X-Rays?
Yes, they will probably only need like 4 more X-Rays (each about 30€).
15. Is my bone big enough for Stryde?
He measured my bone sizes with the help of the CT scan results. I probably need the smaller nail but I can still walk with crutches after 3-5weeks with Stryde.
16. How much will Stryde + TSF cost and when is it available?
Around 60.000€, maybe 2.000€ more. Available in the beginning of next year. (He didn’t mention if he is sure about that or not)
17. Is one method more painful than the other?
He doesn’t think so. Pain is subjective, too.
Other things that were said without a direct question. (At home I measured my wingspan and torso and thought they were both a few cm longer. Dr. Giotikas measured them (not precisely though even though he measured my wingspan twice) and the results were shorter than mine. So apparently my wingspan is about as long as my height. And overall after LL I would be in the normal range but not that close to the average. He said that someone with a trained eye, like he and other LLers would maybe notice the difference but other people would probably not. So I have to decide wether proportions are more important or if I want to lengthen a little less. Like 9cm. But I can’t imagine that 1 cm more or less would make such a big difference. And he said that 6cm femur and 4cm tibia would be good but we could still play with the numbers.
He reminded me once friendly if I have more questions since it’s getting late.
He examined my legs. My flexibility is good. He doesn’t expect ballerina. And IT bands are only a little bit tight on my left leg but it doesn’t need to be operated. Finally, we were done.
Dr. Giotikas said that if I have any more questions I forgot I can e-mail him/his secretary. He will send me a summary next week of the consultations where it’s written what was said. (even though I’m wondering how he remembers everything)
I arrived at 11AM (waited for 20-30minutes inbetween) and left at around 3PM.
After all…I have mixed feelings of what to do. TSF and then Stryde in one year. Or first Stryde (seems to be a lot easier to handle...and then wait after university to do TSF)
Firstly, I'd like to thank you very much for this post, Great321 - the effort in remembering everything, writing it down, and sharing it with us all here.
I'll follow up with my thoughts on everything you guys discussed later, at some other point in time.
-
So he's only 173cm.
I wouldn't call 173cm "only". That's 5'8. About your goal with LL.
Excuse me if I just read too much into your word usage.
-
@Great: I'll send you a PM about a completely different matter too.
-
@myloginacc ahah it’s okay ;D
-
I wouldn't call 173cm "only". That's 5'8. About your goal with LL.
Excuse me if I just read too much into your word usage.
Just because my goal is that height. Doesn't mean I am gonna be fully satisfied with it.
-
I forgot to say that Dr. Giotikas uses TSF with less nails in your leg (less like TSF more like this russian technique but he prefers the tsf frames)
and for stryde he makes another cut above the knees I think not sure...not only on your hip ..I think that's for preventing sth like fat embolism
sorry I can't explain medical things
-
https://www.iwantgreatcare.org/doctors/mr-dimitrios-giotikas
-
7. Is there sth I can do before surgery to improve my recovery?
He offers a plan of training your flexibility 2 months before surgery. He is aware that theoretically it won’t make a change but he believes (or speaks from experience) that the muscles are trained that way...
16. How much will Stryde + TSF cost and when is it available?
Around 60.000€, maybe 2.000€ more. Available in the beginning of next year. (He didn’t mention if he is sure about that or not)
Thank you for sharing. To me it sounds better to do both operations within one year. The sooner you are done the better.. get on with life .. thats my opinion off course...
2 questions:
- did you get his plan of flexibility training, and if so, can you share it with us?
- So to be absolutely clear... 2x femur Stryde and 2x tibia Tsf have a total cost of 60.000euro(sixty thousand)?
greetings
-
So 2x femur with STRYDE is 47k Euro but doing Tibias as well with TSF is only 60k euro? I suck at math
-
So 2x femur with STRYDE is 47k Euro but doing Tibias as well with TSF is only 60k euro? I suck at math
Yes. TSF alone is only 22k euro.
-
Thank you for sharing. To me it sounds better to do both operations within one year. The sooner you are done the better.. get on with life .. thats my opinion off course...
2 questions:
- did you get his plan of flexibility training, and if so, can you share it with us?
- So to be absolutely clear... 2x femur Stryde and 2x tibia Tsf have a total cost of 60.000euro(sixty thousand)?
greetings
I do not have the flexibility plan yet but even if I had I don't think that it would be legal to share it publicly since it's something he created and wants to be paid for..but you can ask him per mail.
Yes sixty thousand euros + two thousand probably. And then you should prepare for complications 4.000 + accommodation + food + caretaker for almost 5 months. (2 months Athens for TSF, 2,5 months for Stryde)
-
Unfortunately, no date on the availability of STRYDE in Europe. Odds favorites are that Dr. Giotikas will be the first surgeon in Europe to offer STRYDE.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/atqf7.jpg)
-
5. Will the PT visit me at my place of stay?
The transport from your apartment to the [PT]center is included in the price.
I asked him again, he said it's not included
-
Has anyone got any experiences to share with this doctor yet, other than emails?
-
Some news. I now have a consultation with Dr. Giotikas fully booked and confirmed via email. It will cost £220 and it’s happening in a couple of weeks. I know quite a few people on this forum talk about this doctor as a possible option so once I’ve had my consultation with him, which will be this month, I will provide updates here on this post with all the information he gives me. Hope this will help some others here. I’m excited and can’t wait to see him.
-
Some news. I now have a consultation with Dr. Giotikas fully booked and confirmed via email. It will cost £220 and it’s happening in a couple of weeks. I know quite a few people on this forum talk about this doctor as a possible option so once I’ve had my consultation with him, which will be this month, I will provide updates here on this post with all the information he gives me. Hope this will help some others here. I’m excited and can’t wait to see him.
Awesome, can you ask him the cost of Stryde for tibia? Streyde costs or stryde options are not listed yet in his website. thanks.
-
Is this an online consultation or face to face? Are you going to visit Greece for this?
-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-
*******************************************
-
Is this an online consultation or face to face? Are you going to visit Greece for this?
It's a real face to face consultation, which will last approximately 45 minutes and it's here in London.
-
Awesome, can you ask him the cost of Stryde for tibia? Streyde costs or stryde options are not listed yet in his website. thanks.
Certainly I will and will post here if he gives me the info.
-
How much does it cost for the Taylor frame to extend 6.3cm?
-
Certainly I will and will post here if he gives me the info.
thanks
-
Certainly I will and will post here if he gives me the info.
any update?
-
Sorry guys not seen him yet. I got the dates wrong. Will be seeing him soon though. The consultation has definitely been booked. I will update once I have seen him which will be quite soon, I promise. Just for confidentiality, I would rather not put the exact date of the appointment. Remember that I have put of lot of my personal stuff on this forum and really would rather keep it private. If I start putting exact dates of stuff, people can put 2 and 2 together. This is a big thing for me, I'm very serious about it but need to be careful. No idea who reads these forums, for example do doctors read them etc, I will update soon.
-
Thats very smart. Its best not to give exact dates and too much personal information. And yes CLL doctors they do read the forums and some of them has answered prospect patient questions.
-
Sorry guys not seen him yet. I got the dates wrong. Will be seeing him soon though. The consultation has definitely been booked. I will update once I have seen him which will be quite soon, I promise. Just for confidentiality, I would rather not put the exact date of the appointment. Remember that I have put of lot of my personal stuff on this forum and really would rather keep it private. If I start putting exact dates of stuff, people can put 2 and 2 together. This is a big thing for me, I'm very serious about it but need to be careful. No idea who reads these forums, for example do doctors read them etc, I will update soon.
Dear friend, hope you would have a good experience. Do you know when Styade nail is available?
Thanks you!
-
(http://i64.tinypic.com/246pg6q.jpg)
Currency Converter: https://www.xe.com
Stryde Package Price Femur: 36950€ + 6000€ = 42950€/$49,200
Stryde Package Price Tibia: 38950€ + 6000€ = 44950€/$51,500
Package Pricing: https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-and-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening.html
-
Anyone has done internals with this doctor?
-
(http://i68.tinypic.com/foglt3.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/1qfibr.jpg)
-
I scheduled a web consultation with him. Is there any questions you want to make? I hope he answers all my questions.
-
I scheduled a web consultation with him. Is there any questions you want to make? I hope he answers all my questions.
Couple of questions to Mr. Giotikas:
Possible to get back to homeland from Greece after 2 weeks if LL with stryde?
Does it affect to prize if use physiotherapy only 2 weeks?
How much every extra night at hospital costs?
How much nail remove costs?
Thanks!
-
Couple of questions to Mr. Giotikas:
Possible to get back to homeland from Greece after 2 weeks if LL with stryde?
Does it affect to prize if use physiotherapy only 2 weeks?
How much every extra night at hospital costs?
How much nail remove costs?
Thanks!
IF I have the consultation, I'll ask him this.
-
Please ask him the most important questions in my opinion.
How many precice 2 did he "install"?
How many complications did he have? Broken nails?
How does he react to complications?
-
Ok.
-
https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-and-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening.html
New prices.
-
Dr Giotikas didn't accept me as patient because I'm overweight (80kg, 1,65m), I smoke and I may have Body Dysmorphic Disorder
(BDD), so the surgery would not help me. He said if I lose weight and stop smoking for 6 months I may be a candidate.
-
Dr Giotikas didn't accept me as patient because I'm overweight (80kg, 1,65m), I smoke and I may have Body Dysmorphic Disorder
(BDD), so the surgery would not help me. He said if I lose weight and stop smoking for 6 months I may be a candidate.
I think this shows the surgeon is a very responsible person. Other CLL surgeons would accept you as patient even knowing these issues.
I suggest you use this a motivation to slim down. Hit the cardio. Eat less. Eat healthy. Start with E-cigarette and try to taper off slowly.
Also remember that, dont blame your height for all your failures. What if you do LL and find out nothing much has changed? blame face, nose, hair or something else? then surgery for that too.
Its an endless rabbit hole.
I know this forum is very pro-LL but some people here have obvious BDD and blames height for everything. Life is not like that.
-
I want him to be my doctor.
-
I want him to be my doctor.
I appreciate your sharing your condition with Dr. Giotikas. Hope you succeed being a candidate in the future. Do you considering TSF (pure external)in tibia? In my memory it maybe can support your weight.(not sure) Maybe the smoking problem matter more but you should also struggle for diet definitely.
-
I appreciate your sharing your condition with Dr. Giotikas. Hope you succeed being a candidate in the future. Do you considering TSF (pure external)in tibia? In my memory it maybe can support your weight.(not sure) Maybe the smoking problem matter more but you should also struggle for diet definitely.
I'm doing a treatment to stop smoke and I'll lose weight, there is no problem there.
I consider doing quadrilateral first in the left leg and than the right, with stryde on femur and tsf on tibia. My "ideal" goal would be 8cm on femur and 7cm on tibia. My minimal goal would be 6cm on femur and 4 cm on tibia.
-
I'm doing a treatment to stop smoke and I'll lose weight, there is no problem there.
I consider doing quadrilateral first in the left leg and than the right, with stryde on femur and tsf on tibia. My "ideal" goal would be 8cm on femur and 7cm on tibia. My minimal goal would be 6cm on femur and 4 cm on tibia.
Cool. Your goal is reasonable. At least 10 and listen your body. But 15cm is Extreme maybe 13 would be great. Anyway Hope you could be a candidate and make your dream come true. Femur tibia patients is really seldom in this forum. I think many people including me hope witness your secession.
-
Is there a minimum height that Dimitrios consider to operate some candidate . I am 178cm and I want to do it
-
(http://i68.tinypic.com/foglt3.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/1qfibr.jpg)
Dr. Giotikas is scheduled to implant his first STRYDE nail by the end of the month.
Currency Exchange: https://www.xe.com/
-
Who will be the patient? Trauma or cosmetic?
-
Hi guys! Thank you so so much for this forum! I have learned a lot reading it for days!
And I am sure I still have lots to learn!
I’m planning to have a consultation with Dr. Dimitrios soon.
Very interested on the stryde
But I wish someone could write a diary about it. I understand it’s too early as he didn’t perform many surgeries with STRYDE.. but maybe I will be the first one to write it if I do it..
I was so confused in the beginning.. I thought about Betz or russian doctors..
I was lost.. thank you everyone for all your feedbacks..
I feel that dr dimitrios is the right one for me.
I will do my best to write a simple and informative diary and I hope I can help people as you all helped me in taking my decision! Thank you!
Meanwhile, if anyone had a STRYDE with Dr. Dimitrios, it would be great to read your diary
-
I am also considering surgery with giotikas this summer. He seems to handle not only TSF but also LON. It can reduce the length of stay to 3 months. He is a very nice doctor. However, he has little experience with the LON method. Only one patient who is currently using the LON method has been confirmed. What do you think about the LON method?
-
I think you are safe doing LON with Giotikas.
-
That's even cheaper than turky for precice and stryde wow!
-
Has he said anything on long-term knee pain from the stryde nail when its installed in tibias? I imagine if they cut open your knee long term knee pain is inevitable and I'd rather just do TSF in that case
-
what is the maximum height that he accepts someone as candidate as LL? I am 178cm tall but I want to do it next year. In my country,the average height is 181 cm . I have height dysphoria, when I see someone more tall than me I feel myself as inferior and it 0nly can be solve with LL. Being 185cm tall, I think that my issues with height probably go away forever.
-
The Euro has been weakening against the U.S. Dollar. This is bringing down the cost of surgery with Dr. Giotikas if you are converting from U.S. Dollars to Euro.
The current U.S. Dollar price of femur lengthening with Dr. Giotikas using STRYDE is $49,000 including physical therapy. This is the cheapest price anywhere in the world.
For current updated pricing with Dr. Giotikas and all doctors around the world offering STRYDE click here: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9734.msg140491#msg140491
-
No limit to height.
-
I haven't seen it advertised as an option anywhere else. Though using TSF, it seems to be classic Ilizarov without LON/LATN (needs confirmation).
TSF and Ilizarov frames are different.
You can find a comparison here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4181081/
-
Announcement: Price list Changes from September 2019
At Athens BJR, we are planning an approximate 4.5% increase on the prices of our services. The new price list will come into effect on Monday 2nd September 2019.
The price list at Athens BJR has remained unchanged for more than two years. This increase was deemed necessary in order to adjust the prices to the increased demand for our services and the national inflation.
At Athens BJR we always abide to our philosophy to provide "Care Affordable to the Many"
This three month notice is in accordance with our standards for transparent financial arrangements. Below you can see the new price list:
Femoral lengthening with STRYDE nails: 45745 Euro
Femoral lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 38610 Euro
Tibia lengthening with STRYDE nails: 47835 Euro
Tibia lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 40700 Euro
Tibia lengthening with TSF (Smith & Nephew) circular frames: 23615 Euro
Four segment lengthening in two stages. The second stage is scheduled at least three weeks after the first stage.
Femurs and tibias with STRYDE nails: 90445 Euro
Femurs with STRYDE and tibias with TSF frames: 65650 Euro
What is included in the above prices:
Pre-operative and post-operative blood tests
Post-operative x-rays
Full board hospital stay for 4 nights in two bed bedroom
Peri- and post-operative medications
Anaesthetist's fees
Surgeon's fee
Surgical assistant's fee
Implants
Soft tissue procedures (tendon or IT band releases) which will be performed at the same setting with the main operation
In-hospital physiotherapy until discharge
Crutches and wheelchair
Post-operative (after discharge) physiotherapy
What is NOT included
Accommodation in Athens.
Travel expenses to and from Athens.
Transportations in Athens.
Food and other supplies during your stay in Athens.
Entertainment and/or Internet costs.
Home health aides (nurses, homemakers, etc.).
-
Someone could tell me if once the dr. Giotikas validates the surgery how long does it go? If there is a waiting list or if, being a private transaction, the customer can decide based on his planned commitments which day to choose? thank you
-
Greece is ok but still not a very good Europe country. Consider only top countries of the world if you can.
-
Why is it that he has no photos of cll patients? And how is he even beating or being near same as India’s price for stryde
I want to book with him in 2020 but I feel as if his prices are a little too good
-
Has anybody already been operated by him with Stryde method for mentioned prices? Just a pair of Stryde nails only cost around that much :D
-
Has anybody already been operated by him with Stryde method for mentioned prices? Just a pair of Stryde nails only cost around that much :D
Where can you find the price of Stryde nails?
-
01. Attached you can find the referral letter for the x-rays. You don't need to do any blood tests prior your arrival to Greece.
02. Attached you can find the pre-operative muscle stretching program.
03. Yes, "ATH" Athens International Airport, Greece is the the correct airport to fly to.
04. Below you can see the breakdown of costs:
Femurs August 2019 Cost Breakdown:
Deposit for booking:300 euro (non refundable*)
Mediterraneo hospital cost: 2600 euro
Femoral Stryde nails: 27825 euro
Rest of package services (see what is included): 13050 euro
Total:43775 euro
Tibias August 2020 Cost Breakdown**:
Deposit for booking:300 euro (non refundable)
Mediterraneo hospital cost: 2600 euro
Tibial Stryde nails: 27825
Rest of package services (see what is included): 12050
Total:42775 euro
* All payments are fully refundable unless otherwise stated (except possible bank transfer costs) in the case of cancellation of surgery for any reason.
** For this quote (August 2020) to be secured the deposit for booking must be paid before 2nd September 2019, due to a scheduled increase in prices.
We remain at your disposal for any further information and assistance.
Kind regards
Athens BJR secretariat, on behalf of
Dimitrios Giotikas, MD, PhD
Clinical Director
Consultant Trauma & Orthopaedics Surgeon
-
01. Attached you can find the referral letter for the x-rays. You don't need to do any blood tests prior your arrival to Greece.
02. Attached you can find the pre-operative muscle stretching program.
03. Yes, "ATH" Athens International Airport, Greece is the the correct airport to fly to.
04. Below you can see the breakdown of costs:
Femurs August 2019 Cost Breakdown:
Deposit for booking:300 euro (non refundable*)
Mediterraneo hospital cost: 2600 euro
Femoral Stryde nails: 27825 euro
Rest of package services (see what is included): 13050 euro
Total:43775 euro
Tibias August 2020 Cost Breakdown**:
Deposit for booking:300 euro (non refundable)
Mediterraneo hospital cost: 2600 euro
Tibial Stryde nails: 27825
Rest of package services (see what is included): 12050
Total:42775 euro
* All payments are fully refundable unless otherwise stated (except possible bank transfer costs) in the case of cancellation of surgery for any reason.
** For this quote (August 2020) to be secured the deposit for booking must be paid before 2nd September 2019, due to a scheduled increase in prices.
We remain at your disposal for any further information and assistance.
Kind regards
Athens BJR secretariat, on behalf of
Dimitrios Giotikas, MD, PhD
Clinical Director
Consultant Trauma & Orthopaedics Surgeon
This does not make sense because I emailed the hospital and their hospital fees is 16 thousand. But this was for quad, so maybe it’s less than that... I don’t know seems weird, I probably will wait until I see at least 2-3 genuine diaries from him
-
how much work experience does Giotikas have?
he seems quite young and just recently became a PhD
you cant compare him with Solomin who got his PhD in 1992
-
I believe Dr. Giotikas is an underrated doctor. He is a consultant trauma surgeon showing he has extensive education and training to be in this position. He has also done research in minimally invasive knee techniques and has a permanent post in the NHS system so if those residing in Europe, he is probably the better option for them in case things go wrong. Here are videos of him performing Precice surgeries. In my own personal research, I believe Paley/Rozbruch are the best surgeons in the America, Dr. Donghoon in Asia, and it is a possibility Giotikas may be the best in Europe. His pts have not face any functional complications thus far. Good surgery technique, follow-up with patient, has good philosophy, ethics, and responsibility towards patient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP1BSMUR9ME&t=199s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLd-2Zd5gq0
-
Professional videos! I can confirm that the facilities look like that.
-
Professional videos! I can confirm that the facilities look like that.
1. Aside from his youth, the (relative) lack of diaries about him, and the relatively smaller number of cosmetic cases done compared to other doctors, what do you feel are the most negative things about this doctor and going to Athens, Greece for the surgery?
2. What do other of his patients who have finished/are close to finishing their journey say about him aside from his nice personality? I mean more on his doctor/surgeon skills
Some people criticized a nail placement or something from a Mahoubian x ray a few years ago if I remember.
-
I believe Dr. Giotikas is an underrated doctor. He is a consultant trauma surgeon showing he has extensive education and training to be in this position. He has also done research in minimally invasive knee techniques and has a permanent post in the NHS system so if those residing in Europe, he is probably the better option for them in case things go wrong. Here are videos of him performing Precice surgeries. In my own personal research, I believe Paley/Rozbruch are the best surgeons in the America, Dr. Donghoon in Asia, and it is a possibility Giotikas may be the best in Europe. His pts have not face any functional complications thus far. Good surgery technique, follow-up with patient, has good philosophy, ethics, and responsibility towards patient.
He doesn’t give very good PT, patient having quite a severe contracture and extra surgery to extend sole muscle which is really risky thing for future complications
In other patient video, he got unnaturally flat feet and probably pronation deformity. These conditions can produce long term complications such as arthritis and pain when walk
Good doctors never produce complications like them
Also someone reported Dr Giotikas couldn’t do successfully the corrective surgery of the deformity coming from Turkey, and producing more problems upon this corrective surgery
I consider Dr Giotikas is far less than the real experts of CLL
Actually quite dangerous choice
There should be better options than him in EU
-
I consider him for surgery with him this year do you have any proof about (patient having quite a severe contracture and extra surgery to extend)? if you have i will propably reconsider. but as far as i know i he is the best choice in europe imo! and i need proof about that if possible (Also someone reported Dr Giotikas couldn’t do successfully the correction surgery of the deformity coming from Turkey,) because he is a Consultant Surgeon in Trauma & Orthopaedics i dont think he would fail to correct a small deformity. ty!
-
If you read very carefully the diaries here on this forum, you’ll find what I wrote
Also I recommend to do very deep research before jumping into it, just reading LL Forum is not enough
-
i have Read joliens,great123,zakika and i havent found something about that turkey patient (correction surgery) and patient having quite a severe contracture and extra surgery to extend sole muscle so. so i will wait for you to send me these!
-
Doctor Giotikas said that TSF frames were not necessary, he would fix it with corrective surgery. It turns out that this was not true. If Doctor Giotikas had delivered what he promised, I would be satisfied. But he didn't.
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=64280.msg164831#msg164831
-
had to stretch my flexors (soles, gastrocnemius etc.), but I didn't need ATL. I don't know the date of my stryde surgery yet, because after the corrective surgery I have to work on my left ankle a lot (quite stiff),
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9073.msg101638#msg101638
-
If that's true i'm very sorry! can you upload some x-rays or anything that proves your surgery with dr.giotikas and your accommodation in athens?
-
If that's true i'm very sorry! can you upload some x-rays or anything that proves your surgery with dr.giotikas and your accommodation in athens?
They are two different patients of Giotikas, quoted from different posts on this LL Forum
-
Can you send me their diaries ? ty!
-
My first option in Europe would be Köhne. If Baumgart did stryde, maybe him.
-
Can you send me their diaries ? ty!
Added the links in the post
Anyways you really seem to need more research about CLL
Do not decide based on price
Please study more and read more about other doctors also
Please contact veterans, and go visit as many CLL hospitals as possible in EU
Do more comparisons
-
Zakika had a corrective surgery its true! he post x-rays seems fine
suddenurge comment: Doctor Giotikas said that TSF frames were not necessary, he would fix it with corrective surgery. It turns out that this was not true. If Doctor Giotikas had delivered what he promised, I would be satisfied. But he didn't. i didnt find any proof that he had corrective surgery with him only that he contact him for advice!
-
From The last X-rays of Zakika, frames haven’t even been removed yet, callus not strong enough yet, the photo does not show his ankles
How can you conclude he is doing fine with these X-rays
you probably want to believe Dr Giotikas is good, then become blind not seeing these facts
Also in the other patients video, flat feet and pronation deformity is seen
To protect your future and all readers future, Please study more and keep watching things objectively
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9073.msg102538#msg102538
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9370.msg166909#msg166909
-
Zakika comment March 10, 2019, 10:42:22 PM: last post: Guys, there are many reasons, when somebody is online, and is not writing, I'm fine, I released the struts on both legs, and the frames will be removed on the next week (end of it). Paranoid people please don't post, rather read back diaries, when candidates are not writing for weeks, and after than report their experiences.
I think (as I wrote before), that the basic infos are very useful here, but generally this forum is rather toxic, than beneficial for someone undergoing a real adventure. This is my very last post on this forum, good luck for every candidates!
Also xrays shows good callus formation in my eyes: x-rays was at February 16, 2019, 08:22:39 AM. i dont know how to post his x-rays!
-
The X-ray you are talking about is far from full consolidation
You keep asking me the proof but you conclude he’s doing fine without any proof only his words
Why is it? It is the sign of blindness I should say
But anyways, I warn you enough here, do what ever you want
I only hope you are fine after a few years post op and for your life
-
I literally copy paste his comment and i said that in my eyes his x-rays are good because it shows good callus i never said he had full consolidation but i think it shows that he will! also i ask for proof all the time we are both strangers i think its only logical After all the fake infos,diaries in the forum!
Anyway i think giotikas is the best option for me personally! we agree to disagree hope the best for you and your future cll!
-
Also there’s no 3D X-rays at this hospital
It will be harder to control rotational deformities
Even with femurs there can be some deformities upon surgery if doctor is not meticulous
-
Dr Lee has 3d xray? How does Lee control rotation deformity?
Paley also takes only AP lateral xray during every visit. Paley has less ability to control deformity than Lee?
-
Dr Lee has 3d xray? How does Lee control rotation deformity?
Paley also takes only AP lateral xray during every visit. Paley has less ability to control deformity than Lee?
Did you see the video of OYG with x-leg?
Paley does only one leg and other leg is done by other doctor
I don’t think it’s good
Dr Lee actually changes surgery plan depending on degree of deformities and if you do both segments or not
Surgery is not something simple nor one-method-fits-all thing.
They do have EOS 3D X-ray
Nuvasive Nails are fixed when surgery is done. Impossible to adjust after surgery with Nuvasive nails
Preop diagnosis is very important
-
If it is only in the beginning then yes Paley also takes EOS scan. Parihar takes CT scan.
So there is no difference.
Did you see the video of OYG with x-leg?
Paley does only one leg and other leg is done by other doctor
I don’t think it’s good
It looks Dr Lee is the only perfect doctor in todays world. Other doctors either dont have technology or experience or work from poor nations or are not concerned about the patients or just want to make money. I think there will be a huge surge of patients to Dr Lee from all doctors around the world soon.
-
Simple CT isn’t comparable to 3D X-rays
Does Giotikas or Parihar have 3D CT?
There’s big difference between 3D and non3D diagnosis
-
If it is only in the beginning then yes Paley also takes EOS scan. Parihar takes CT scan.
Very well put. This guy is so blatant in his shilling, I wonder if he is on a payroll;)
So there is no difference.
It looks Dr Lee is the only perfect doctor in todays world. Other doctors either dont have technology or experience or work from poor nations or are not concerned about the patients or just want to make money. I think there will be a huge surge of patients to Dr Lee from all doctors around the world soon.
-
If it is only in the beginning then yes Paley also takes EOS scan. Parihar takes CT scan.
So there is no difference.
It looks Dr Lee is the only perfect doctor in todays world. Other doctors either dont have technology or experience or work from poor nations or are not concerned about the patients or just want to make money. I think there will be a huge surge of patients to Dr Lee from all doctors around the world soon.
Very well put. This Guy is so blatant in his shilling, I wonder if he is on a payroll.
-
Give me the name of excellent doctors
I’m so thirsty for that ;D
Actually Limewalk is the one who started asking about Lee on this thread
Is he a shill???
-
Ok TemakiSushi you said this
Also there’s no 3D X-rays at this hospital
How do you know? Are you sure?
Actually Limewalk is the one who started asking about Lee on this thread
Is he a shill???
I am just asking out of curiosity. If doctor X has a flaw, then I want to find out if Dr Lee also has the flaw. I asked you TemashiSushi because you seem to know about Lee well.
-
Simple CT isn’t comparable to 3D X-rays
Does Giotikas or Parihar have 3D CT?
There’s big difference between 3D and non3D diagnosis
Isn't CT 3D? CT takes images of slices of the bone and can be finally seen in 3D. The only disadvantage is CT is very high radiation.
Anyway I don't know if Parihar uses CT for diagnosis but he uses it to order the right size of nails.
-
simple CT and 3D CT
Imagings are very different
exchanged emails with doctors EU, US, and Asia who provide Stryde or will provide it in near future
Also I’ve done quite a bit of research behind this forum, collecting information which never will appear on open forum like this
Many writers of diaries cannot be truthful due to the pressures from doctors or litigation issues
So readers really need to be very careful when reading dairies
Many only seek affirmation about the doctor they are interested, that is dangerous behavioral pattern
Also it’s better to stay away from doctors who are new or doesn’t have much experience in the cosmetic LL
You don’t wanna be a guinea pig
I used to work for a hospital so I get some technical opinions from medical staffs including orthopedists
BTW EOS 3D X-rays are something not commonly owned worldwide
In Japan there were only 2 university hospitals who have it as of last year
-
Ok Temaki please continue posting your insights. So far it looks like only Lee is the undisputed best doctor and checks all the boxes:
- good CLL experience
- good LL experience
- 3D scans
- good rehab after LL
- developed country South Korea
- has not caused any deformity in any patient
- good video evidence.
-
However I’ve seen some living evidences also, I am not yet a total believer of CLL nor Donghoon so I keep researching, although I have already reservations :D
Think whatever you think
I’m only sharing my opinions whenever I encounter dangerous information here
So that people once stop and think very carefully to protect their future, time, health and money
Who doesn’t say “watch out” when someone is about to fall into a pond unintentionally
-
This is the first negative post I've read about Dr Giotikas, can anyone else back up these claims? I have Stryde surgery booked with Dr G, I'd rather not be going into it with any doubts.
-
Its better to ask the people that had the surgery with him imo.
ill definitely go with him this year or the next but if you are not sure yet make a good research and pick the best suitable surgeon for you. i hope the best for your future ll!
-
Thanks man, best of luck to you too. I've researched him and his credentials seem solid, he also works for the NHS which is the main reason I chose him. I've read the diaries of his patients and they seem to be reasonably positive, although more diaries would be helpful. Always difficult to tell on these forums what is genuine and what isn't so who knows.
-
.
-
This is the first negative post I've read about Dr Giotikas, can anyone else back up these claims? I have Stryde surgery booked with Dr G, I'd rather not be going into it with any doubts.
Ask him TemakiSushi's concerns in previous posts. Does he take 3D x-ray? How does he prevent rotational deformity? Has his previous patients healed? Or you can have a consultation with Dr. Lee also and compare. I have not done so much research as you or Temaki have, but it maybe logical to do this.
-
Thanks man, best of luck to you too. I've researched him and his credentials seem solid, he also works for the NHS which is the main reason I chose him. I've read the diaries of his patients and they seem to be reasonably positive, although more diaries would be helpful. Always difficult to tell on these forums what is genuine and what isn't so who knows.
Hi Nestor, I agree with Daikioni, if you need more info, better ask real patients who have been or are in Athens now, like Azman. Even then, I might add, filter out what is just their subjective perception of things.
They are certainly a better source of info compared to any unknown and potentially sinister mind here (with no expertise and no consequences to their advice). Don't let them poison your mind, especially if you are already on your way to the real thing. Many of them just envy and can be toxic, Zakika has already mentioned these things in the past and he was absolutely right imo.
-
For choosing a doctor, I've always wondered about something. There was a point in history where Dr. Paley or Mahoubian had less experience early in their careers. Eventually, a doctor gets enough experience and becomes a "safe" doctor in people's eyes, or at least one would hope. Its tough. The patients a young doctor takes early in his years have to know they are going with a less experienced doctor, though him being less experienced doesn't exactly mean he is malicious or unscrupulous.
I wish Dr. Paley would publish a book (maybe he already has) of a giant flowchart of things that a doctor should consider in every situation/how to handle or prevent various complications. He seems to go over alot of common mistakes/situations here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2ePdIKIPo (making too big of an incision, how to remove a broken nail quickly, etc ) though I imagine experienced LL doctors may have learned almost all of this during residencies already.
-
Yeah that's true every surgeon starts off with little experience but then builds a name for himself/herself, the only downside is you'd rather not be one of the guinea pigs for them to make mistakes on 😄
Ive watched some of that video before Paley makes some great points, like you mentioned you would imagine if we're aware of such things from a YouTube video then so would a practicing surgeon, or at least I'd hope!
I've spoken with Dr Giotikas, he comes across as very intelligent and ethical, I'm hoping he's a good choice.
-
Yeah that's true every surgeon starts off with little experience but then builds a name for himself/herself, the only downside is you'd rather not be one of the guinea pigs for them to make mistakes on 😄
Ive watched some of that video before Paley makes some great points, like you mentioned you would imagine if we're aware of such things from a YouTube video then so would a practicing surgeon, or at least I'd hope!
I've spoken with Dr Giotikas, he comes across as very intelligent and ethical, I'm hoping he's a good choice.
Tell us how it goes if you go with him! He seems to have left good impressions on people.
-
I just pray this man does not raise his prices
-
I’ve had my consultation with Dr. Giotikas. Here are my thoughts about my experience in Athens in general before:
So to do surgery with Dr. Giotikas, someone would typically fly to his office in Greece to do the a consultation, and then a few months later would schedule a surgery and fly there again?
-
It's a real face to face consultation, which will last approximately 45 minutes and it's here in London.
Oh? I hadn't thought about this at all. Is it typically cheaper in terms of flights/hotel the night before the consultation for say an American to do the consultation in London as opposed to Athens?
-
TemakiSushi, I hope you know Dr. Donghoon Lee also had pts with complications but they are posted in another language. A few comments was translated by a forum member, there were some pts with nerve damage and unable to feel their toes after removing fixators and problems still unresolved. He also forgot to do release surgery with another overseas patient who flied over again and wasted 10,000 more for surgery and flight. In Korea, countless pts died from operation related mistakes like wrong dosage of anesthesia and unqualified shadow doctors/nursing operating on others. Korea is adept at hiding their bad outcome data because of "face" and scaring away prospective cosmetic tourism. While I'm not saying it was at Dr. Donghoon's clinic but what is stopping these same types of workers/helpers coming from bad clinics and slipping into others? My point is having surgery in Korea with Dr. Donghoon is not some guaranteed outcome for everyone either.
And Dr. Donghoon has won surgeon awards by the way and I do think he is more legit than others operating in Asia but this shows alot can still go wrong regardless of anyone's reputation. It is up to each person to do their own research and make a personal choice. Your research is not necessarily better than somebody else's so let people make their own decision instead of bringing down this one doctor everywhere. You seem to have confirmational bias yourself with Donghoon being the only choice for others and an ax to grind with Giotikas. You are even bothered about where the man lives, which has nothing to do with whether he is a good surgeon or not. THAT is borderline obsessive. You have not done surgery with him and should not be giving advice contradicting his own pts satisfied postings about their OWN outcome and progress.
Btw, suddenurge's situation is unfortunate but remember it was another surgeon's mistakes another doctor is given to work with. We don't know extent of damage already from the delayed response from first doctor in Turkey. Giotikas likely did not want to put patient through more trauma with reinsertion of another device. The pt reported the grafting and result is not done yet so we are unclear of his situation. What Giotikas should of done in my opinion was offer the patient two options to choose from: TSF and the other option that he did instead. Patient should of demanded TSF for its track record in fixing misalignment and go to the Dr who will do it. If Dr. Giotikas refused, then he should not go to him, which is not the case that any of this occurred. There is no x-rays or followup from poster, we don't know what went on exactly to judge. To be fair to Dr. Giotikas.
In a surgery like this, alot can go wrong, even a great surgeon may not have 100% perfect results, on the contrary you want to choose a dr that takes precautions and mitigate any undesirable outcome. That is why I listed those Drs from their respective regions as the top, this is in comparison to the others/peers that do not have their varied experience and trauma surgery credentials.
-
Hi Cobalt
Thanks for complications info about Dr Lee
Could you give me the site URL of the nerve damage case, toes numbness?, you are taking about
I know Dystonia like case in which one toe is keep moving but never immobile, Dr Lee himself explained about the case
Anesthesia accidents most happened at small cosmetic clinics where anesthesiologist is not present at surgery and only surgeon and nurses are in charge of monitoring anesthesia while doing surgery
On contrary, Dr Lee’s hospital has resident anesthesiologist
According to the patients I’ve contacted, yes superficial Skin numbness is quite common especially among external and last like a year in some case. This skin numbness, I don’t worry much as long as it’s not making damage like a dropfoot
Release not done case, could you also refer me to the site, if it’s not the case in the forum?
From what I’ve known, some years ago Dr Lee didn’t do IT band release in some cases
Now it’s confirmed for femurs he does IT band release routinely
Bicep tendons only in cases hamstrings are extremely tight
Gastrocnemius fascia release, only in some cases it’s done
it seems it doesn’t need to be done if ankles aren’t too tight
These practices are just like Paley
I’ve never heard of preventive nerve decompression cases with Donghoon
It was done on OYG by Paley
BTW I never expect any CLL doctor to be 100% safe
Still certainly some doctors have much higher rate of complications than others
Also most patients never write a thing about their experience here.
If there are already quite a bit of complications or dangerous treatments are revealed here, that means there are lot more complications hidden behind this forum
Even those who write diaries here, many hide crucial facts
There are too many readers who only rely on this forum and have too optimistic views of certain doctors, especially those doctors who newly entered into CLL field
There have been guiniepigs, then after some cases there are stories of devastating experiences
This kind of history is repeated just too many times here
Look at what’s been happening in India, China, Armenia, Russia, Uklaina,Germany, Spain, Italy etc etc
People don’t need to hide negative information
Why you wanna hear only good things about the doctor you are interested in?
It’s way better to estimate the risks before the surgery is done
Some do surgery without having extra funds
If they’ve known the risks they could have prepared for it
How much will they loose if they cannot walk normally for two years, living without income
Some come from the country which doesn’t provide enough health welfare
Also, many CLL doctors or their staff are reading this site
It should be good for them to learn here to provide better treatments
-
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=9941.0
from a korean forum website NAVER and translated by another member
This is his outcome of patients using his cafe
-Able to exercise and extert force like before. Practically same without surgery.(6.5cm/femur PRECICE2). He said that he is the best recovered patient amongst all that he saw including other femur PRECICE2 patients.
-Able to exercise and extert force. Hasn't tried to exercise intensely but he can't see why it wouldn't work.(5.5cm/PRECICE femur)
-Able to exercise and extert force. Has been going to the gym for a while. There are no problems with his legs and it practically doesn't feel any different. Fast movement(very intense running) is slower than before. His speed has gone down slower and his leg stamina has also gone down. It's not painful, he explained as a heavyness on his leg like you would be after walking/running for a long time. Albeit it comes faster than before.(LON tibia 6.3cm)
-Able to exercise and extert force. He has about 90% of his previous ability. Nothing really changed for him and very satisfied with his surgery.(LON 6cm tibia)
-Everything is same as before surgery other than crossing legs and intense exercise. Roughly 85% recovery as stated by her. Still hasn't gotten nail removed, 2 years after initial surgery.(7cm tibia LON/Asian female patient)
-6 years since surgery. Is able to dance/walk/run/heavy lifting. Practically same as before. However, he is unable to run as fast as before. (7cm tibia LON)
-7 years since surgery. Is able to function normally in life and can lift/walk. Unable to run like before and heavy exercise is still too exhausting. He said that if a robber hit him and run, he wouldn't be able to catch up to him. Said that his tibia still does not feel strong. If he gets hit in his tibia, it hurts very much so. One of the worst cases seen in the forums.(7cm tibia LON. 170cm->177cm)
-7 years since surgery. He says that he is infact faster and stronger than his before-surgery state. He loves soccer and plays it everyday, he says that he is even better at it than before surgery. He has been one of the best results for the surgery. Many patients and himself says it is because he did recovery exercises for 14 hours every day and only took breaks while eating and sleeping.(5.7cm LON tibia 166cm->171~172cm)
-Hasn't talked about running but seems to be functioning well. 1.5 year since surgery and hasn't gotten nail removed yet. Last post was asking Dr.Donghoon Lee if he could leg press more than he is doing currently.(80kg/roughly 180 pounds).(6.4cm LON tibia/hasn't gotten nail removed).
-Worst case yet in Dr.Donghoon Lee's cafe. Is unable to function well in society. Cannot move his foot muscles properly(pain and freezes up). It is in a constant state of pain even without moving. He is able to walk but cannot run properly. No problems with his bones but his muscles have been diagnosed as a disease.(Involuntary movement) Dr.Donghoon Lee has been attempting to take care of him and used his name as a reference him to Severence Hospital for a diagnosis. Still has NOT been resolved. It has been 2 years since surgery. Says it started after removing his external fixator and putting the nail in(2nd surgery). He thinks it may have to do with his broken pin that happened in his first surgery. Still has not been solved.(posted less than a month ago)
There are more but most of them are incomplete without updates.(Only posts about the first few months of surgery.)
-
I am not looking to hear only good things about any surgeon. In a serious surgery like this, you would want to have all the information in front of you whether good or bad to make the right decision for yourselves. Leave no rock unturned in researching the surgery itself and your surgeon choice.
Please stick with objective and deep information, not lazy statements such as "I don't like so and so. He's this and that bc I just think so."
-
Oh yes I have this patients video of his toe moving involuntarily.
I’ve also chatted with the guy who posted this here.
His symptom is like dystonia. he was diagnosed by a university neurologist that this is not caused by the LL surgical mistakes.
If the nerve is damaged then it won’t move, just like a dropfoot that makes impossible to lift a toe
Dystonia is a condition of brain dysfunction and can be caused by a trauma. Since external LL is such an invasive surgery, actually anyone who are susceptible to a traumatic experience can get this Dystonia like condition
This is very rare case though, and still Donghoon meets my criteria of less than 5 % complication rate
Giotikas, there are just too many red signs, reading what’s been reported here.
-
OK here we go the list of red signs, the reasons not to choose Giotikas
A guy wasn’t happy with Giotikas Reoperation, couldn’t fix misalignment
Check Giotikas X-rays of tibia cases at least on this forum
He doesn’t put thick screws to hold fibulas
It’s well known that the tibia surgery without these screws will leave some troubles with joints
If Giotikas isn’t good at aligning bones then he may produce some troubles with femurs with prospective patients
Misalignments actually could be the cause of very delayed consolidation. Pure externals should get faster consolidation but taking more than a year with less than 5 cm lengthening.
Giotikas telling patients that he put extra screws into heels for ballerina foot
Giotikas did extra surgery of foot flextor muscle extension to Zakika
Those surgeries should be avoided at any cost to protect soft tissues, ligaments and cartilages
These facts mean that he doesn’t pay much attention to PT to provide better prevention of contractures
With a femur case, it seems he doesn’t prescribe oxycodone to releave severe pains
For some people without strong pain meds, LL process can be unnecessarily extremely stressful and may cause a risk of mental trauma
-
TemakiSushi,
where actually do you have the data on surgeons' complication rates from? How did you draw conclusions like Dr. Lee having a <5% complication rate, or doctor XY an x% complication rate? Did you just count complications in patient diaries and self-reports, take the doctor's own statements, or use science papers?
Cheers.
-
Each person's genetics, gender, and their body's response to the surgery and their ability to heal is different. Asians(Indian, Chinese, etc) have slower consolidation due to genetics and possibly diet regardless if its external only, nail or not. Paley's women tibia and Asian patients were also reported to need more time to consolidate.
Maybe we are not coming across the same information about Giotikas? Azman, zakika, great123, Jolien, the others who did Stryde including a Chinese girl and also an American guy, went to him and satisfied with their outcome? They can't be that unhappy, one even tried to the use the opportunity to market her diary to others, albeit with exagerration. Giotikas did not leave anyone crippled?
Azman's diary mentioned that there are alot more doing Stryde with Giotikas and that they are also doing fine? I recall a complaint about his therapy facility, not to one person's liking, but please differentiate between functionality and luxury. Some are fine with functionality of facility, whether it is resort-like to others don't matter. Others contradicted this person on this and azman's diary mentioned the current ones there are happy with the rehabilitation they got and there is nothing amiss. To each, their own I guess?
I did not read or see anywhere that Giotikas initiated their own cascade of problems unlike the ones who went to India, Serbia, China, Turkey, and god knows where else they ended up because they did not choose safety and credibility. You think NHS would hire some goon off the streets with no credentials as their consultant trauma surgeon? He is the clinical director of a orthopedic facility in which he founded and was also recruited by a university located in Cambridge as their honorable senior clinical lecturer. If he was not respected, they would not even bother to seek him out for any of these positions.
-
I also don't see whats wrong with his technique? They can all walk from what is in zakika and great123 videos. You made a claim about someone's foot in the last page, you do know that some people are born with flat foot, and it might not be caused by surgery itself, nobody knows with certainty unless we personally have their information and close up photos before surgery, which none of us do. A surgeon has his own techniques and what size pins they want to use is up to them, not you. I think he is trying to minimize the size of the scar created with the smaller pins, as smaller holes do heal better, and having more of it creates stability and position of bone aligned with frame so ppl won't end up with rotatational deformity.
You definitely are injecting your opinion that Giotikas is a horrible choice for others, not because any credible evidence that shows that he is. You need to be fair in your assessment of others. You can choose whoever as your surgeon but remain respectful to others. I am not telling anyone that they have to go to Giotikas either, go do your own research, and go where you feel comfortable and have enough information on.
-
One of the downsides to Greece that I agree with is their pain management is unlike that of the US. So just be aware and prepared mentally when you go overseas in other countries esp Asia and Europe for this surgery, they are more wary and hesitant of prescribing stronger meds such as opiods for pain. These other countries want to curtail opiod addiction and have less of an opiod epidemic than the US. In the US, normally surgeons prescribe Percocet(oxycodone) or Vicodin(hydrocodone) for those who undergo orthopedic procedures to take every 4-6 hours to effectively manage their pain after surgery. This helps patient sleep. Downside to pain med is constipation, slower bone healing, vomiting, and potential of addiction. Tramadol, ibuprofen, aspirin for pain and neurontin, lyrica for nerve is what you see more often in some of the overseas diaries out there reporting to have available for their pain management.
-
TemakiSushi,
where actually do you have the data on surgeons' complication rates from? How did you draw conclusions like Dr. Lee having a <5% complication rate, or doctor XY an x% complication rate? Did you just count complications in patient diaries and self-reports, take the doctor's own statements, or use science papers?
Cheers.
If I were only counting data from diaries or whatever doctor says?
The rate will be too gooood to believe ;D
Luckily since I’m not native English speaker I have my own sources
-
Are there Korean government sources published on cosmetic surgeons' records? It wouldn't surprise me seeing Korea is the cosmetic surgery capital of the world.
But how can you Korean language skills help you when it comes to the complication rates of people like Giotikas or Paley? How can you know their complication rates?
-
Oh no connections are not limited to Asian hospitals
-
Keep being so vague, I'm sure it will make your words more credible.
-
If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery
-
If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery
TemakiSushi,
Stop with all the negativity on Dr. Giotikas. I too considered Dr. Donghoon of Korea and Dr. R, Dr. P, Dr. M & Dr. D of the US before finally choosing Dr. G after all my research and Thank God I did. Not sure what the outcome will be if I didn’t choose Dr. G, but I’m more than HAPPY with my results and recovery and so are all the patients I met in Athens. In fact a few of us still keep in contact by WhatsApp since we are international patients.
Before leaving Athens, I have met 3 patients that did Stryde on their TIBIAS and they are walking and recovering nicely. Reading information on this forum is one thing but meeting patients face to face is another. So before bashing a doctor, go meet that doctor and their patients and your worries and whole view will change.
Dr. Donghoon is a good doctor also and good luck with your planned surgery when he get Stryde. Start a dairy when you finally actually get the surgery, anything before the surgery are just talk.
Azman
-
If you are such a data oriented person then why don’t you get interested in a few years long veterans of Giotikas?
How can you feel safe with a doctor like Giotikas who doesn’t have that long enough history of CLL
CLL journey doesn’t end really until a few years after surgery
Many develop joint problems a year or two years after surgery
Temaki Sushi had you ever contacted Dr Giotikas before contacting Dr Dongoon? Did he reject you because of BDD or something else? I am only asking because I do know that Dr Giotikas has specific selection criteria for his patients and I cannot think of any other explanation of your obsession with him except for revenge because of bitterness of rejection.
-
One of the downsides to Greece that I agree with is their pain management is unlike that of the US. So just be aware and prepared mentally when you go overseas in other countries esp Asia and Europe for this surgery, they are more wary and hesitant of prescribing stronger meds such as opiods for pain. These other countries want to curtail opiod addiction and have less of an opiod epidemic than the US. In the US, normally surgeons prescribe Percocet(oxycodone) or Vicodin(hydrocodone) for those who undergo orthopedic procedures to take every 4-6 hours to effectively manage their pain after surgery. This helps patient sleep. Downside to pain med is constipation, slower bone healing, vomiting, and potential of addiction. Tramadol, ibuprofen, aspirin for pain and neurontin, lyrica for nerve is what you see more often in some of the overseas diaries out there reporting to have available for their pain management.
Hi cobalt
I don't really know how Europe or Greece controls the pain management. But I can tell you that in US, docs are very hesitant of prescribing oxycodone, even tramadol. When I was in Paley institute, I received oxy only for about 2 weeks after surgery. After that, there was no more pain prescription. I wish I would have got more oxy, but was refused to get more oxys not even tramadol. That was one of my complaints about Paley institute.
-
Temaki Sushi had you ever contacted Dr Giotikas before contacting Dr Dongoon? Did he reject you because of BDD or something else? I am only asking because I do know that Dr Giotikas has specific selection criteria for his patients and I cannot think of any other explanation of your obsession with him except for revenge because of bitterness of rejection.
What a delusion ;D
No doctor reject me for CLL or any kind of treatment or surgery
There have been guiniepigs, then after some cases there are stories of devastating experiences
This kind of history is repeated just too many times here
Look at what’s been happening in India, China, Armenia, Russia, Uklaina,Germany, Spain, Italy etc etc
People don’t need to hide negative information
Why you wanna hear only good things about the doctor you are interested in?
It’s way better to estimate the risks before the surgery is done
Some do surgery without having extra funds
If they’ve known the risks they could have prepared for it
How much will they loose if they cannot walk normally for two years, living without income
Some come from the country which doesn’t provide enough health welfare
Also, many CLL doctors or their staff are reading this site
It should be good for them to learn here to provide better treatments
Rejection of criticism will only produce tragedies
Ignorance and optimism can jeopardize someone’s life
-
Hi cobalt
I don't really know how Europe or Greece controls the pain management. But I can tell you that in US, docs are very hesitant of prescribing oxycodone, even tramadol. When I was in Paley institute, I received oxy only for about 2 weeks after surgery. After that, there was no more pain prescription. I wish I would have got more oxy, but was refused to get more oxys not even tramadol. That was one of my complaints about Paley institute.
Hello Ghostfish, I am from the US as well, this is due to many states in recent yrs introducing new opioid laws in place regulating how much can be prescribed at a visit. It is a Schedule II controlled substance, subject to high abuse, overdosing, and even death. Doctors are under more scrutiny now when they prescribe it but they do still prescribe it as part of better pain management in the US, esp in cases like orthopedic surgeries, cancer, acute or chronic back pain. They will prescribe it in the limits of the legal amounts that they are allowed to, whether they give you the min or max depends on your doctor's comfort level. He doesn't want professional liability nor a visit from the Drug Enforcement Agency. Doctors can be sanctioned for not following the new opioids laws. Despite this, US doctors will all in likely prescribe someone with broken bones the appropriate pain meds even if its temporary rather than not at all unlike other countries out there that would just throw you a bone for your pain.
Also US Pharmacies can report a doctor to the DEA if they see too much of an over the limit, suspicious, or ongoing amount of Percocet or Vicodin or any other CII prescriptions being prescribed by any one Prescriber. Aside from trouble, Paley also probably doesn't want you to develop dependency on it. I think Paley is a responsible provider. Thanks for the information.
-
Hi cobalt
I am very aware of all potential problems of opioid and knew that new opioid laws have been introduced recent years. However, I was still suffering from deficiency of pain medication, since my pain seemed to be a little worse than others. Some other patients also complaint about not being given strong pain medication. Although I and most other patients managed to finish CLL journey, it could be better to have a little more support of strong pain medication.
-
Judging by:
https://www.giotikasorthopaedics.co.uk/cost-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening/
...Giotikas offers CLL here in the UK.
I’ve emailed them for confirmation. If they do I’ll be having it next year.
-
Replying to you again. This is NOT a good thing because Giotikas will not be attentive to patients in Greece or UK now. Same practice Guichet followed.
-
Replying to you again. This is NOT a good thing because Giotikas will not be attentive to patients in Greece or UK now. Same practice Guichet followed.
Exactly, he would end up neglecting his patients like Guichet did. He is obviously starting to care too much about the money
-
Guys cool down, this is no news! Giotikas has had a practice in London, since many years ago. He has worked in England for many years and still sees patients there, not so much for LL as for for other bone problems.
-
Guys cool down, this is no news! Giotikas has had a practice in London, since many years ago. He has worked in England for many years and still sees patients there, not so much for LL as for for other bone problems.
👏👏👏 Arcon thank you for doing the research!!!
To frenchie and Bala, Dr. G has been operating like this for years. Do your research before bad mouthing a surgeon. He is one, out of a handful of surgeons that will actually turn a patient down if that patient is not a good fit for CLL and that means a lot well at least he is not just about the money. If you do your research, he had turned down at least 2 members from this forum.
During my stay in Athens, Dr. G would fly back and forth from England to Greece for my follow up appointments. His partner is a good orthopedic surgeon and he lives in Athens and can also be reach my phone. Dr. G has a good team of doctor, nurses and physical therapists in Athens that can take care of his patients in Athens. I’m not sure about his team in England cause I never met them. He give all his patients his personal line and to this day I’m still doing follow up appointments free of charge through WhatsApp by video with him. He is always one call or text away. I have travelled to Athens from the states by myself and did it alone but never felt I was by myself in Athens.
It’s funny how someone that never did CLL with Dr. G can say this and that and that and this.
Stop wasting your time on bad mouthing a great surgeon and do your research and focus on your plan of how you are going to achieve your goal of being able to do CLL then actually making the commitment of having the surgery and your plans for during distraction.
-
My bad then if he has been operating like that for years. But with increasing demand for a stryde surgeon in Europe, the projection of his patients should soar exponentially in the coming years. That's when physical access to the surgeon becomes critical. We have seen too many cases of miscommunication between the main surgeon and the doctors and therapists in his team
-
Wow if he offers in uk i rather do it in UK then Greece. At least, more comfortable to know that everyone speak english
-
During my stay in Athens, Dr. G would fly back and forth from England to Greece for my follow up appointments. His partner is a good orthopedic surgeon and he lives in Athens and can also be reach my phone. Dr. G has a good team of doctor, nurses and physical therapists in Athens that can take care of his patients in Athens. I’m not sure about his team in England cause I never met them. He give all his patients his personal line and to this day I’m still doing follow up appointments free of charge through WhatsApp by video with him. He is always one call or text away. I have travelled to Athens from the states by myself and did it alone but never felt I was by myself in Athens.
Very helpful response.
Please could you advise on your recovery thus far. How close to your pre-CLL flexibility and mobility are you? How long has it now been? What was your start and ending height? How much did you pay in total?
-
Very helpful response.
Please could you advise on your recovery thus far. How close to your pre-CLL flexibility and mobility are you? How long has it now been? What was your start and ending height? How much did you pay in total?
Walking like normal nowadays well it’s still feel kinda different from before the surgery. I’m able to run but was advised not to jump but feel like I’m able. Flexibility is about 80% to pre-CLL. If you see me in public you would never guess I got CLL or had my legs broken. Gain 8cm in the Femurs. The feelings I have nowadays is surreal it’s awesome. Thinking back when there were doubts during July and August of 2019, thank god almost everyday that I overcame and those doubts and went ahead with the surgery. It’s cost about ~$53+k USD for everything and worth every single penny!!!
-
Does anyone have the stats on Dr Giotikas regarding how many patients he has operated on and their success/complication rates? I have tried to e-mail their office but they do not seem to be willing to give me this information. Also the lack of before/after results pictures on his website and diaries on this forum is quite worrying. I'm planning to get the surgery with him at the end of this year hopefully, I prefer him to USA surgeons as I'm a European citizen and want to stay out in Greece for a solid 6-7 months and of course the living costs are much cheaper there.
-
Judging by:
https://www.giotikasorthopaedics.co.uk/cost-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening/
...Giotikas offers CLL here in the UK.
I’ve emailed them for confirmation. If they do I’ll be having it next year.
Wait so Dr Giotikas does surgery in the UK???
-
Walking like normal nowadays well it’s still feel kinda different from before the surgery. I’m able to run but was advised not to jump but feel like I’m able. Flexibility is about 80% to pre-CLL. If you see me in public you would never guess I got CLL or had my legs broken. Gain 8cm in the Femurs. The feelings I have nowadays is surreal it’s awesome. Thinking back when there were doubts during July and August of 2019, thank god almost everyday that I overcame and those doubts and went ahead with the surgery. It’s cost about ~$53+k USD for everything and worth every single penny!!!
Wait So how much did you lengthen? I thought it was cheaper then 50k for one surgery
-
The Price For Surgery With Dr Giotikas
Femoral lengthening with STRYDE nails: 45745 Euro
Femoral lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 38610 Euro
Tibia lengthening with STRYDE nails: 47835 Euro
Tibia lengthening with Precise-2 nails: 40700 Euro
Tibia lengthening with TSF (Smith & Nephew) circular frames: 23615 Euro
Tibia lengthening with TSF (smith and Nephew) and Synthes Expert nail (LON): 32600 Euro
Four segment lengthening in two stages. The second stage is scheduled at least three weeks after the first stage.
Femurs and tibias with STRYDE nails: 90445 Euro
Femurs with STRYDE and tibias with TSF frames: 65650 Euro
Femurs with STRYDE and tibias with TSF frames and Synthes Expert nail (LON): 74750 Euro
-
Are These the new prices/ cost for the surgery or old ones I found them on his website.
-
Also I haven’t read many diaries from Dr Dimitrios Giotikas could anyone please suggest me good diaries from his patients also I am planing to do 2 surgeries with him if I can do them for less then 80-90k . Please Reply
-
If anyone knows the pricing/ cost for surgery with Dr. Dimitrios Giotikas could you please reply, For Both femurs and tibia surgery, Thank You
-
https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening/
There you go bro.
-
https://www.athensbjr.com/cost-pricing-of-cosmetic-limb-lengthening/
There you go bro.
Thank You very much.
-
Hi yolo yall,
I'm back on the scene with more rage to do LL and considering Giotikas. I havent been following LL for years and come back to hear Guichet has crippled people?? How does that happen?
After some research I see Giotikas is mentioned often, his prices are decent but I dont see many start to finish experiences listed which kinda concerns me because I want to be in safe hands.
I'm looking to increase femurs by around 5.5cm hoping that people close to me will associate it with muscle development or pass it off as shoe height. Do you think I can blag 5.5cm given that I'm not in contact with them too often?
General concerns: Scaring is a big issue for me, I dont want surgical patterns on my legs. Anyone have images of giotikas thigh scars? I clearly dont want to be crippled and dont understand how that comes about, is it the infections, and would it be more common in somewhere like India than Greece due to EU standards, inwhich case how did guichet cripple people? For Giotikas Precise 2 from the day of surgery I'm guessing I can walk like normal by the 7th month minus stamina; how would that change with stryde realistically? If I work from home, will I have the ability to work full hours within one week of surgery?
Finally I'm lacking slightly over half the required €45k and need to pull a rabbit out the hat within a few months. Anyone aware of any financing tools in UK to pay off the remainder over 4/5 years? If not I may have to rob a bank.
Thanks
Tengo
-
Anyone can blag 5.5cm.
If you had a friend who was as tall as you, you can easily tell him that you went to gym and cured your posture.
If you had a friend shorter than you, they won't rly notice.
The hard part is, if you had a friend who was 5 cm taller than you, then you will be at the same height. You can pretty much tell him that you cured posture also. They will EAT it.
-
since youre considering femurs, the scarring is quite minimal. plus you have the advantage of covering them up with pants so most people wont see. in addition to that because it is covered up most of the time, you are not exposing the wounds to uv radiation, thus reducing the risk of hyperpigmentation.
whats your ethnicity? people with darker skin tend to be more prone to hypertrophic and keloid scarring
-
@a Most of my friends are over 10cm taller so I have a good feeling I can blag it, apart from one which is around 5cm taller - I may have to relax my posture so he doesn't sniff it.
@wannabeidol I'm in between white and brown, and I do get scarred easily and it lasts so if theres a solution to not getting scarred like anti scar patches or honey or whatever I need to figure it out.
-
@a Most of my friends are over 10cm taller so I have a good feeling I can blag it, apart from one which is around 5cm taller - I may have to relax my posture so he doesn't sniff it.
@wannabeidol I'm in between white and brown, and I do get scarred easily and it lasts so if theres a solution to not getting scarred like anti scar patches or honey or whatever I need to figure it out.
you gotta use some vitamin e oil
vitamin c for brightening
and HEAPS OF SUN PROTECTION
just wear sunscreen and long pants your body will thank you
-
1. 53k for femurs stryde really? If you had 150k, is it reasonable to do both internal femur and tibia?
2. What were your other main expenses aside from surgery?
-
"Femurs and tibias with STRYDE nails: 90445 Euro"
90,445 Euro equals
106,855.34 United States Dollar
1. If you did this option, what do you think your total price would be including accommodation/etc?
2. What VISA option would you pick? Would need to be there like 6 months
Is 150k total enough?
-
"Femurs and tibias with STRYDE nails: 90445 Euro"
90,445 Euro equals
106,855.34 United States Dollar
1. If you did this option, what do you think your total price would be including accommodation/etc?
2. What VISA option would you pick? Would need to be there like 6 months
Is 150k total enough?
150k total should be more than enough in this case as monthly living cost is to be around 2-3k max.
-
Does anyone know if Dr Giotikas does surgery in the Uk as someone said something about him doing surgery in the UK...
He does seem like a decent surgeon but I have my doubts
-
Does Giotikas fix the fibula to the tibia for internal tibias? Paley talked about this issue, I'm trying to understand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC6ws6lCslM&t=2080s
-
Palely says at this time stamp in the vid that there is a right and wrong way to fix the fibula.
27:50 – Fibula fixation is super crucial among many other experienced-based techniques
What is the right and wrong way, and which does Dr. Giotikas do?
-
Palely says at this time stamp in the vid that there is a right and wrong way to fix the fibula.
27:50 – Fibula fixation is super crucial among many other experienced-based techniques
What is the right and wrong way, and which does Dr. Giotikas do?
He say he fix fibula to tibia 1 screw above ankle
-
what is your thoughts about dr gikotas ?
Hi Cobalt
Thanks for complications info about Dr Lee
Could you give me the site URL of the nerve damage case, toes numbness?, you are taking about
I know Dystonia like case in which one toe is keep moving but never immobile, Dr Lee himself explained about the case
Anesthesia accidents most happened at small cosmetic clinics where anesthesiologist is not present at surgery and only surgeon and nurses are in charge of monitoring anesthesia while doing surgery
On contrary, Dr Lee’s hospital has resident anesthesiologist
According to the patients I’ve contacted, yes superficial Skin numbness is quite common especially among external and last like a year in some case. This skin numbness, I don’t worry much as long as it’s not making damage like a dropfoot
Release not done case, could you also refer me to the site, if it’s not the case in the forum?
From what I’ve known, some years ago Dr Lee didn’t do IT band release in some cases
Now it’s confirmed for femurs he does IT band release routinely
Bicep tendons only in cases hamstrings are extremely tight
Gastrocnemius fascia release, only in some cases it’s done
it seems it doesn’t need to be done if ankles aren’t too tight
These practices are just like Paley
I’ve never heard of preventive nerve decompression cases with Donghoon
It was done on OYG by Paley
BTW I never expect any CLL doctor to be 100% safe
Still certainly some doctors have much higher rate of complications than others
Also most patients never write a thing about their experience here.
If there are already quite a bit of complications or dangerous treatments are revealed here, that means there are lot more complications hidden behind this forum
Even those who write diaries here, many hide crucial facts
There are too many readers who only rely on this forum and have too optimistic views of certain doctors, especially those doctors who newly entered into CLL field
There have been guiniepigs, then after some cases there are stories of devastating experiences
This kind of history is repeated just too many times here
Look at what’s been happening in India, China, Armenia, Russia, Uklaina,Germany, Spain, Italy etc etc
People don’t need to hide negative information
Why you wanna hear only good things about the doctor you are interested in?
It’s way better to estimate the risks before the surgery is done
Some do surgery without having extra funds
If they’ve known the risks they could have prepared for it
How much will they loose if they cannot walk normally for two years, living without income
Some come from the country which doesn’t provide enough health welfare
Also, many CLL doctors or their staff are reading this site
It should be good for them to learn here to provide better treatments
-
Hey Android! Thanks for the thread on Giotikas. What's the cost if you want Dr. Gioitikas to pre-emptively do these things up front before lengthening:
1. Nerve decompression for femurs
2. Nerve decmpression for Tibias
3. Gastro recession
4. IT band release
5. Hamstring biceps release (I heard this was a thing, a bit rarer?)
-
Giotikas does this? Is it the right way?
-
Hey Android, I heard that for staying 7-8 months for doing two lengthenings that a traditional lease might be cheaper than Air BnB. What are your thoughts on which place to stay at in Athens if you are doing two internal lengthenings?
-
TemakiSushi,
Stop with all the negativity on Dr. Giotikas. I too considered Dr. Donghoon of Korea and Dr. R, Dr. P, Dr. M & Dr. D of the US before finally choosing Dr. G after all my research and Thank God I did. Not sure what the outcome will be if I didn’t choose Dr. G, but I’m more than HAPPY with my results and recovery and so are all the patients I met in Athens. In fact a few of us still keep in contact by WhatsApp since we are international patients.
Before leaving Athens, I have met 3 patients that did Stryde on their TIBIAS and they are walking and recovering nicely. Reading information on this forum is one thing but meeting patients face to face is another. So before bashing a doctor, go meet that doctor and their patients and your worries and whole view will change.
Dr. Donghoon is a good doctor also and good luck with your planned surgery when he get Stryde. Start a dairy when you finally actually get the surgery, anything before the surgery are just talk.
Azman
it is called blind trust
-
it is called blind trust
@Dr. X-ray More - Blind trust??? Do you know the meaning of putting those two words next to each other? Please clarify “it is called blind trust,” since it does not make any sense regarding that post. Sound kind of ignorant to make a statement like that.
My bad not being nice here, let me rephrase not so smart, not smart at all Dr. X-ray More.
-
@Dr. X-ray More - Blind trust??? Do you know the meaning of putting those two words next to each other? Please clarify “it is called blind trust,” since it does not make any sense regarding that post. Sound kind of ignorant to make a statement like that.
My bad not being nice here, let me rephrase not so smart, not smart at all Dr. X-ray More.
x-ray tell the too many things. this is my answer.
-
Hi, are there LL patients here operated by this doctor? I'm considering him for LL nail removal. However, I would like to know some first hand experiences.
-
Hi All
I read this lengthy forum from Page 1 to 8.
Some said they had scheduled the operation with Dr. Giotikas and followed with a lot of debates.
To date, I didnt see any real feedback from the people who have gone thru the operation with him.
-
I did LATN Tibia (external + nail ) with him earlier this year (Feb 2021). DM me if you have any questions
-
Hi
Will PM you
Thanks!
-
Does he still operate in the UK? How much time does he spend in the UK versus in Greece?
-
Has inflation impacted any of the costs for an American wanting to do internal femur with Giotikas?
-
How was the post op physio process?
-
How was the post op physio process?
Dr. G package includes 4 days PT per week during distraction phase.
The PT consists of stretching, cycling and anti gravity treadmill - almost the same PT routine during distraction.
One thing to note, once you leave Greece, Dr. Giotikas would not care for you very much.
He is not very supportive, slow in response and sometimes dun even bother to answer your questions.
-
Dr. G package includes 4 days PT per week during distraction phase.
The PT consists of stretching, cycling and anti gravity treadmill - almost the same PT routine during distraction.
One thing to note, once you leave Greece, Dr. Giotikas would not care for you very much.
He is not very supportive, slow in response and sometimes dun even bother to answer your questions.
Clarification:
Once you leave Greece, PT session will be on your own.
Doc will review and answer XRAYs and medical questions
-
Is Dr. Giotikas currently the best budget option?
Someone told me this about Dr. Parihar:
"total cost of precice 2,2 in india -> 32,844 USD
Surgery cost -> 11,822 USD
Giotikas price -> 46,841.40 USD
so parihar is still cheaper but the difference is like $ 2k."
-
Deleted
-
I do not recommend this doctor. Stay away from this doctor. They have a few patients who have died and there are better doctors for the same price.
-
We're stuck here listening to fairy tales from kids who never even laid on a surgery bed.
-
We're stuck here listening to fairy tales from kids who never even laid on a surgery bed.
Danishviking ? you keep promoting dr gliokas with your new fake account. Go ahead maybe he'll let you do anal later.
-
Dr Giotikas is a great doctor. He corrected mistakes from a deformity I got from a Turkish surgeon.
We're stuck here listening to fairy tales from kids who never even laid on a surgery bed.
Ignore the troll and wait for him to get banned for the third time. He's just a kid who's never going to even get the surgery, not sure how he picks and chooses which doctor are good and bad.
-
Of course he is. Anybody who can't understand that a doc with hundreds of cases will have a few complications is just ignorant. Wishing you a speedy recovery, bro. I hope to be in Athens soon, too.
-
Dr Giotikas is a great doctor. He corrected mistakes from a deformity I got from a Turkish surgeon.
Ignore the troll and wait for him to get banned for the third time. He's just a kid who's never going to even get the surgery, not sure how he picks and chooses which doctor are good and bad.
LMAO you were saying good doctor at the doctor who crippled you idiot. You denied that Dr Yuksel was a butcher and called him a good doctor. Now you're saying to gliokas lol Exactly bro, good doctor, keep it up. Your choices are amazing. Dr Yuksel yurttas. Now gliokas. What a similar doctor.
-
I do not recommend this doctor. Stay away from this doctor. They have a few patients who have died and there are better doctors for the same price.
A few? I only know one.
-
anyone know what the current price of G-nail Femurs?
-
it's on his website
-
I did surgery with Giotikas 2019.
:) SURGERY AND RECOVERY WAS TOUGHT. one nail failed and had to replace after a few weeks. After that, everything was super nice. Recovery was great and walking and running took only 3 months after phase 1. I am a body builder - sporty guy, so if I showed you my legs now you will be happy as I am. Key words to this journy is Strong mind over strong body. Be very optimistic :D
was good to be in athens. Greek people were super supportive and helpful, my favorites. Giotikas was always nice. physio staff super sweet. I am very happy with the result.
1.65 to 1.73 (femur )
-
bro so after 3 months on surgery your walk looks normal?
-
A few? I only know one.
who was it? and was their death actually related to the surgery?
-
Have you already done the surgery or met dr GIotikas, cuz I’d like to have some more info about his work and experience.
-
Hey do u still think dr giotikas is not experienced enough cuz i was interested in his precice 2 package to get 6cm on my femurs but with ur posts i got a bit worried even tho they are a bit old
-
did u get have any complications¿ did u see people need to do more surgeries there¿
-
did u get have any complications¿ did u see people need to do more surgeries there¿
Why dun go for Gnail? Weight bearing nails so that you can move with walker or crutches.
It is easier for you not depending on wheelchair during lengthening or consolidating.
-
Idk i mean it’s not something that everyone uses i don’t wanna be the ginny pig of this doctor
-
Idk i mean it’s not something that everyone uses i don’t wanna be the ginny pig of this doctor
You will not be a ginni pig! gnails have been in the market for 20 years now without any problems and giotikas uses them for more than 2 years in big numbers. I mean weight bearing capacity is crucial for better and faster recovery imo and this cannot be taken lightly.
-
Im thinking on betz or dr G… donyou recomend doctor G?.. seems nice grece
-
did u get have any complications¿ did u see people need to do more surgeries there¿
My journey was smooth and walk without support post surgery 4 months.
Nail removed 1.5 years later.