Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: Oh So Arrogant on May 14, 2018, 05:46:51 PM
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I just spoke with two different patients who had surgery with Dr. Pili. Both had surgery over 2 years ago and still can't even walk properly. They said running or playing sports is basically impossible. They both lengthened their tibia's and then had achilles tendon lengthening surgery recommended by Dr. Pili.
It is incredibly dangerous to surgically lengthen your achillies tendon. I never understood why Dr. Pili talks about it so casually as if it's no big deal and routinely recommends it. Now I find out his patients can barely walk.
I can't even imagine how many more of his patients are in this same situation. I will be speaking with at least one more of his patients later in the week who says they are suffering the same effects after their achilles tendon lengthening surgery.
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Here is Dr. Pili lying to a member on this forum who questioned him about performing Achillies Tendon Lengthening Surgery.
Achilles Tendon Lengthening surgery is needed to avoid equinus foot deformity.
It is not dangerous at all in my experience as I never had ant serious complication following this surgery.
If you get equinus foot during lengthening (80% chance over 4-5 cm lengthening) it is necessary to achieve a good alignment, to walk during the treatment and avoid long recovery time after frame removal.
That is a total and complete lie. This surgery is so dangerous that no other respectable doctor ever recommends it.
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Thank you for the information. Can I ask you how you got in contact with the former patients?
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Wow, so sorry for them. I hope they get better soon. It is said that any surgeon that does or recommend ATL is a quack.
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Oh so Arrogant: How did you manage to talk to the patients? I am a current patient, I doubt unless you met Dr Pili in person, he wouldnt let you talk to his patients. No offence, but I am just curious on how you managed to speak to the patients. No doubt that the surgery is kinda risky but still I have not heard any of his patients say that. I am in touch with a fellow patient whose brother did 9.5 ish after achilles. He said he is fine. espresso, lumiere and few more too said they were fine, although all did say the initial few weeks were tough till the wires were removed. I am not saying its safe, but I havent heard any botch up as well though.
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Why should any reliable doctor prevent someone from talking to his former patients? I guess he just talked to them in private without Dr. Pili's consent...
Dr. Paley and Dr. Giotikas both say that after ATL you won't be the same. And from Dr. Paley we know that he is very experienced..so shouldn't we take it serious?
fivetenneeded2016: be cautious, I wish you the best
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If this is true, there's no hope for me. I'm sure Guichet and Monegal are to be avoided because I visited them and got a very, very bad impression. I haven't visited Pili but I think I won't even try. What for? New disappointment? Perhaps I will have a look at the new Greek option.
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On an estimate what's the chance of needing ATL say for 5-6max cm of gain in the Tibia?
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On an estimate what's the chance of needing ATL say for 5-6max cm of gain in the Tibia?
Dr. Pili:
"if Achilles tendo lengthening is needed (80% chance) it will cost you around 4500 €. For ATL, lengthening 5 cm is around 40-50%."
That's still a high number.
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Dr. Pili:
"if Achilles tendo lengthening is needed (80% chance) it will cost you around 4500 €. For ATL, lengthening 5 cm is around 40-50%."
That's still a high number.
I agree but it's odd because I have not read that many people actually got it done, mabey I just havn't read enough diaries.
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Dr. Pili:
"if Achilles tendo lengthening is needed (80% chance) it will cost you around 4500 €. For ATL, lengthening 5 cm is around 40-50%."
That's still a high number.
BS.
For 5-6cm all patients will walk normal if they do PT and walk unaided, at max 6-7 months after full consolidation.
NOONE needs atl! if someon start to have severe equinus thes he should stop LL. Continuing lengthening amd just doing atl to "fix" equinus just makes patient semiparaplegic.
After atl NOONE is normal. All patients will have a degree of incapability, from medium to too much. Walking is really hard, jumping almost impossible and if someone pushes you you'll fall down like you are 20kg only!
Atl should be banned, so simple.
I know how that nightmare is and I thank God everyday that, after a lot of frustration and sadness, I managed to fix my ruined legs and feel almost normal today.
I am maybe the only one in the world that performed at shortening surgery after atl (and not after an elongated tendon due to at rupture) so I am only one of the very few in the world who knows how bad atl feels and how important is a normal tendon length.
I dont want to talk about myself but my experience with atl and at shortening is so unique that as I said I am maybe the only one in the world that did both these surgeries so I really know what I am talking about.
Pili is plain stupid to do atl, epsecially for minor lengthenings like 5-6 cm where NOONE have so severe equinus that cant be fixed just with walking and pt.
If one of his patients that did atl had another opinion, they should write it here.
My personal experience and from all the people that I know that did atl (Crimsontide etc) is that atl is the worst mistake that an LLer could to himself.
It simply ruins your legs.
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Dr. Pili:
"if Achilles tendo lengthening is needed (80% chance) it will cost you around 4500 €. For ATL, lengthening 5 cm is around 40-50%."
That's still a high number.
So half his patients that are doing 5-6cm which is not too much and is average are getting atl? Wow. Absurd.
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This account was involved in a lot of crazy shxt when it registered in the forum so it's difficult to take it seriously. But I respect the notion of "trying to get the truth out there".
If those patients are real, tell them to post their stories here. The whole community would benefit, and they can remain anonymous, with basic knowledge and precautions taken for it.
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Why should any reliable doctor prevent someone from talking to his former patients? I guess he just talked to them in private without Dr. Pili's consent...
Dr. Paley and Dr. Giotikas both say that after ATL you won't be the same. And from Dr. Paley we know that he is very experienced..so shouldn't we take it serious?
fivetenneeded2016: be cautious, I wish you the best
Any LL surgeon not just Dr Pili, would first show you before after photos/xrays and may be testimonials. No one gives their patients contact details unless you have met them or have had an appointment. Even then, the patients consent is required. I dont know if the OP has met Dr Pili in person and has obtained the consent of patients to be contacted.
Again, by no means, I am saying ATL is safe. I would try my best to avoid it myself. I havent hearnt any bad outcomes from the people who were operated for ATL under Dr Pili though. Also if you check my older posts, during my visit to Dr Parihar last year, he too said if done carefully its fine.
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Hey guys, you should finally understand that LL doctors are only after your money and give a damn about you. Therefore as long as they can get away with crippling their patients they will do it regularly. In my opinion the only way to be safe is to have it done in the US, the only country where the doctors are afraid of being sued. Europe is on par with India when it comes to patient safety.
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Hey guys, you should finally understand that LL doctors are only after your money and give a damn about you. Therefore as long as they can get away with crippling their patients they will do it regularly. In my opinion the only way to be safe is to have it done in the US, the only country where the doctors are afraid of being sued. Europe is on par with India when it comes to patient safety.
Can you elaborate on that?
The EU specially tends to be stricter than the US in almost all kinds of regulations. However, in the medical field, is the situation the opposite?
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Can you elaborate on that?
The EU specially tends to be stricter than the US in almost all kinds of regulations. However, in the medical field, is the situation the opposite?
No it is not.
And india has nothing in common with EU in terms of medical laws .
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Can you elaborate on that?
The EU specially tends to be stricter than the US in almost all kinds of regulations. However, in the medical field, is the situation the opposite?
In most European countries the doctor is almost certain to win any lawsuit against a patient. The burden of proof is on the patient, but the doctors have all the evidence. The patient must prove 2 things, the fact that the doctor made a mistake and that his damage was caused by this mistake. The only way to prove this is to get an expertise from another doctor. Doctors normally stick together and help each other.
Also, there is no FDA in Europe which would control medical devices like lengthening nails. The manufacturers control themselves. The US regulations are much better here. That's the reason why e.g. some European lengthening nails are advertised as fully weight bearing. You won't see that with FDA approved nails.
Further, in the unlikely case a doctor loses a case, the compensation he has to pay is minuscule in comparison to what the patient would get in the US.
It's all about the legal position of the patient.
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I forgot to mention there are exceptions. France has much better patient protection than most other European countries. That's why Guichet no longer works in Marseille but moved to Italy and the UK instead.
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that would be great to have those old patients here
they probably have more to say about it than the author
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Not completely disregarding what your saying but I find this hard to believe. I would assume that most CLL patients get 5cm or more done on their tibias and if this guy keeps doing ATL with bad outcomes surely someone would have noticed? Catagni would have also advised against this no?
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Achilles tendon surgery is to be avoided at all times. Only in the most extreme cases should this surgery even be considered. COSMETIC LENGTHENING SHOULD NEVER LEAD TO ACHILLES TENDON SURGERY!
That is what numerous doctors have told me. I'm sorry for the patients who are currently lengthening with Pili and those who already have. Their lives will never be the same. Very sad...
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If this is true, there's no hope for me. I'm sure Guichet and Monegal are to be avoided because I visited them and got a very, very bad impression. I haven't visited Pili but I think I won't even try. What for? New disappointment? Perhaps I will have a look at the new Greek option.
Guichet is similar price to Paley. Why don't you just got for Paley?
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Hey guys, you should finally understand that CLL doctors are only after your money and give a damn about you.
True words. At least about most who work with CLL. Even Paley is a salesman. We just look the other way due to his experience and abilities. And also because us willing lab rats should help fund in some way all his other main work doing deformity and limb discrepancy correction in children.
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Not completely disregarding what your saying but I find this hard to believe. I would assume that most CLL patients get 5cm or more done on their tibias and if this guy keeps doing ATL with bad outcomes surely someone would have noticed? Catagni would have also advised against this no?
yes, if you do research on diaries you will see Catagni and Pili are kind of obsessed with doing ATL with CLL, for them it sems it is a combined package - and FYI I have been told by many folks on PM ( I would not like to name) that ATL has destroyed their lives. If you have some special reason to either defend or chose Pili or Catagni - fine - at the end it is individual choices. This forum is for sharing and exchanging thoughts and information, but each individual makes his/her own choice and oun journey. I personally would never go to Pili or Catagni even if they do the surgery free of cost.
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Can you elaborate on that?
The EU specially tends to be stricter than the US in almost all kinds of regulations. However, in the medical field, is the situation the opposite?
you must be joking. Except EU rules being stricter on Genetically modified food (which in any case in a bull law and EU has scientifically been proven wrong), all other regulations in US are stricter, and by far.
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you must be joking. Except EU rules being stricter on Genetically modified food (which in any case in a bull law and EU has scientifically been proven wrong), all other regulations in US are stricter, and by far.
Hi, Prakash - welcome back. Do you have more information on this topic?
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If you do research on diaries you will see Catagni and Pili are kind of obsessed with doing ATL with CLL, for them it sems it is a combined package - and FYI I have been told by many folks on PM ( I would not like to name) that ATL has destroyed their lives. I personally would never go to Pili or Catagni even if they do the surgery free of cost.
Pili does achilles tendon surgery for tibia lengthening the way most doctors do ITB release for femur surgery. It's absolutely crazy! There are so many patients of Pili who can barely function properly after ATL. I'm with you, if surgery was free I wouldn't let Pili operate on me. I'd rather save my money for another doctor to have a normal life after lengthening.
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Goodmorning everyone,
is the first time I write in the forum I joined yesterday.
I should OPERATE in Lecco in October with Catagni, who is known to work with Pili.
The first thing that told me with great serenity is that generally after 5 cm of lengthening the Achilles tendon is extended and that it would have booked the surgery immediately after the first days of lengthening.
It seems strange to me that if it is so dangerous, it spoke calmly, also because being an Italian citizen, the intervention of the tendon is covered by the health system and not at the patient's expense.
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I do not agree on what you say, the intervention to the Achilles tendon is necessary after 3 - 4 cm because this tendon does not naturally extend too much, so if you do a stretch of 5-6-7-8 cm of tibia you will remain on tiptoe, the intervention consists in thinning the tendon in order to make it more elastic.
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I do not agree on what you say, the intervention to the Achilles tendon is necessary after 3 - 4 cm because this tendon does not naturally extend too much, so if you do a stretch of 5-6-7-8 cm of tibia you will remain on tiptoe, the intervention consists in thinning the tendon in order to make it more elastic.
You dont have any idea what atl is.
They dont just thin your tendon.
They cut it in a z cut and they reattach both of its edges to a new length which most of the time is longer at least 3cm. All the inside gap is filled with scar tissue which is comoletely unelastic and more weak than real tendon. This will be your new "tendon"
Also, except from scar tissue, the new length leads to permanent and major deficits in power and tension which means that your balance will be way off and your push off power so reduced that even jumping and running will be almost impossible.
Thats what atl is, not just a thinner tendon but a thinner, longer tendon full of scar tissue which makes sokeus-gastrocnemius tension, the most important function of any muscle, completely off.
All doctors that perform atl obviously have no idea how catastrophic is otherwise they would have stopped doing it like all respectable doctors.
But that doesnt mean that the patient should suffer for the lack of knowledge the doctor has.
Also, tendon is very elastic that with walking and standing most patients will be completely ok without equinus up to 6-6.5 cm tibua lemgthening.
But even equinus is 1000 more preferable than almost useless legs that dont have the power for even everyday things.
It is my duty and all of patients that underwent atl to prevent other patients to even think about it.
But if you still do it then the responsibility for your condition will be completely yours.
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Honestly I do not understand, why then do they want to do it?
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ATL indeed is the hardest part of LL as my fellow patient's brother felt out of his experience under Dr catagni. But never the less, he is back to normal. He can jog/run/swim etc. The negativity is just due to bad experience under another doctor. I have not heard of a Pili/Catgni patient losing strength after ATL. Bodybuilder(No offense buddy _/\_) has asked this repeatedly on other Catagni/Pili patients' diaries but still isnt convienced even after they told him they are okay. It could again depend on how the surgery was performed. Even Parihar said he would do ATL in case of severe equinus.
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Also its not mandatory. There are patients who have not had ATL too under Dr Pili. It kind of depends on how much you lengthen and your flexibility. Given a choice, if i reach my goal withbminor equinus, I would avoid it too. Why? Because of cost.
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fivetenneeded2016 have you met patients of Pili that have done internal femur? If so how did it go for them?
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fivetenneeded2016 have you met patients of Pili that have done internal femur? If so how did it go for them?
I have not met any femur patients, my friend. But for femur, why dont you goto Betz/Guichet? If you ignore the outliers, majority have good results, if you go by data based on diaries here.
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fivetenneeded2016 have you met patients of Pili that have done internal femur? If so how did it go for them?
Besides I might not choose Dr Pili for femurs, if I plan for. I only opted them for the weight bearing tibial frames(I wanted pure external as I had a surgery on my knee earlier) and good results from the other diaries.
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The thing is, Pili use Precise, which is much safer. Thats why i was thinking about him. But i am far from making a decision yet.
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The thing is, Pili use Precise, which is much safer. Thats why i was thinking about him. But i am far from making a decision yet.
If you are going for precise go with Stryde. Trust me, weight bearing is the best thing if you want to get to normal living as soon as possible. First few days I walked very minimal, even then I lost my calm, it was just too frustrating. It then becomes a mental fatigue too if you are unable to do basic chores.
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ATL indeed is the hardest part of LL as my fellow patient's brother felt out of his experience under Dr catagni. But never the less, he is back to normal. He can jog/run/swim etc. The negativity is just due to bad experience under another doctor. I have not heard of a Pili/Catgni patient losing strength after ATL. Bodybuilder(No offense buddy _/\_) has asked this repeatedly on other Catagni/Pili patients' diaries but still isnt convienced even after they told him they are okay. It could again depend on how the surgery was performed. Even Parihar said he would do ATL in case of severe equinus.
Be careful, FTN.
I recommend e-mailing as many CLL surgeons as you can if it ever comes the time that Pili suggests ATL. I'm telling you this because I've did the same... asking doctors about ATL. But do mention you're a current Pili/Catagni patient when you send those e-mails. Being no doctor, I can't give any other advice than that. Just never trust your own doctor blindly in the world of CLL.
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ATL indeed is the hardest part of LL as my fellow patient's brother felt out of his experience under Dr catagni. But never the less, he is back to normal. He can jog/run/swim etc. The negativity is just due to bad experience under another doctor. I have not heard of a Pili/Catgni patient losing strength after ATL. Bodybuilder(No offense buddy _/\_) has asked this repeatedly on other Catagni/Pili patients' diaries but still isnt convienced even after they told him they are okay. It could again depend on how the surgery was performed. Even Parihar said he would do ATL in case of severe equinus.
I dont know even one patient who did atl and write here to have a good result after it. Who are they?
And we did it to at least 6 different doctors.
Also, Paley and every respectable doctor I know are totally against atl.
I dont know who are these patients that are completely ok after atl and why none of them writes here to tell us their experience. Of course, I could write whatever I want, but if you post a video of someone who did atl and can jump or run fast (not veey fast, just faster than jogging) then I will never write against that crapy surgery again.
But I am sure you won't find anyone. But I truly wait for a video like that with a patient who did LL to jump from the ground.
So dont write about things that you dont know my friend only to defend your doctor. No respectable doctor in the world performs atl nowadays (no, a doctor in India is nothing significant, when Paley says avoid atl I dont care what Parihar or Pili says) and also it is stupid to do atl after 5cm to almost anyone while at least 90% of patients could reach 6cm on tibias without any major equinus that cant be treated with pt.
Anyway, I really don't care what anyone does after all I've written. Afterall, after 5 terrible years I am very good right now after my at shortening surgery. I just dont want anyone to feel how miserable I, Crimsontide and many more felt with having weak and sloppy legs that couldnt do nothing more than a slow walking.
If you think that all these are not from atl but from the doctors that did it bad to us, them its your choice to do it and see it by yourself.
But I have warned you.
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http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107096.html#msg107096 (says he is fine)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107126.html#msg107126 (you again curious abt ATL and were puzzled he could walk so soon)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107208.html#msg107208 (he clarifying again that he feels much releived)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107306.html#msg107306 (can walk much much better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107345.html#msg107345 (repeating it)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107911.html#msg107911 (you still have your doubts)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107912.html#msg107912 (he is again telling you he did ATL for the better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg109144.html#msg109144 (OP says he can run)
CAMILLO(you dint ask him though, but in another thread he replied to your question)
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109195.html#msg109195 (says no issue post ATL)
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109221.html#msg109221 (suggests ATL too with a good doc, says it depends on your docs skills, and confidence. I totally agree on that front. It could depend on patients stats too,(flexibility/physique/strenght etc))
DAMN, I wrote a lot, with data, and had posted,,,but then I tried to modify it... but unfortunately the 'quote' thingy got it all messed up :/. I overwrote on top :/ See my following post to sum up most of it.
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I dont know even one patient who did atl and write here to have a good result after it. Who are they?
And we did it to at least 6 different doctors.
Also, Paley and every respectable doctor I know are totally against atl.
I dont know who are these patients that are completely ok after atl and why none of them writes here to tell us their experience. Of course, I could write whatever I want, but if you post a video of someone who did atl and can jump or run fast (not veey fast, just faster than jogging) then I will never write against that crapy surgery again.
But I am sure you won't find anyone. But I truly wait for a video like that with a patient who did LL to jump from the ground.
So dont write about things that you dont know my friend only to defend your doctor. No respectable doctor in the world performs atl nowadays (no, a doctor in India is nothing significant, when Paley says avoid atl I dont care what Parihar or Pili says) and also it is stupid to do atl after 5cm to almost anyone while at least 90% of patients could reach 6cm on tibias without any major equinus that cant be treated with pt.
Anyway, I really don't care what anyone does after all I've written. Afterall, after 5 terrible years I am very good right now after my at shortening surgery. I just dont want anyone to feel how miserable I, Crimsontide and many more felt with having weak and sloppy legs that couldnt do nothing more than a slow walking.
If you think that all these are not from atl but from the doctors that did it bad to us, them its your choice to do it and see it by yourself.
But I have warned you.
BodyBuilder, I know your experience with ATL was bad and all you are doing is spreading the word. LL, the surgery, in itself is risky, there are bad outcomes in LL, doesnt mean all such patients dissuade to do it under any doctor. No offence to you, I really respect and look up to you. You know that too.
But I feel if a doctor is good and confident and has good outcomes with his patients after the surgery then it is fine. SO IT MAJORLY DEPENDS ON YOU, THE DOCTOR SKILLS, AND THE TECHNIQUE.
I dont trust Paley more than Catagni(Paley learnt from him and has very high regards for Catagni), not for tibias and definitely not for externals.
I by no means support any doc, but I dont like the baseless(without data) accusation on the doctors. I am speaking with data. If I were to do my femurs, since there is not much data on Catagni/Pili, I wouldnt go with them either. Also regarding "defending my doctor", I have written about my doctor being not responsive over mail after the surgery. So I do not take sides. I do see by experience and data, he can perform a good surgery though. He doesnt entertain otherwise.
Please name the "respectable" docs. I feel you would say Paley and few more against ATL. To you because, ATL was not good for you and some more patients, any doc performing it is "not respectable", instead of seeing the results and beliveing what these patients have to say. That way, any one with bad LL, would consider any doctor performing LL itself "not respectable".
Since you asked some places where people said they are doing fine, here...you have your comments in many of these conversations:
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1. NOTTOOTALL: (you asked him, he had ATL..complete the link by filling old forum.org between "www." and "/index..."):
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107096.html#msg107096 (says he is fine)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107126.html#msg107126 (you again curious abt ATL and were puzzled he could walk so soon)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107208.html#msg107208 (he clarifying again that he feels much releived)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107306.html#msg107306 (can walk much much better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107345.html#msg107345 (repeating it)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107911.html#msg107911 (you still have your doubts)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107912.html#msg107912 (he is again telling you he did ATL for the better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg109144.html#msg109144 (OP says he can run)
2. CAMILLO (had ATL you dint ask him though, but he replied to you in a different thread..complete the link by filling old forum.org between "www." and "/index..."):
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109195.html#msg109195 (says no issue post ATL)
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109221.html#msg109221 (suggests ATL too with a good doc, says it depends on your docs skills)
3. Whereintheworld (dint get ATL):
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3582.msg59803#msg59803
4. Lumiere (said he too avoided):
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2161.msg37137#msg37137
5. Exagerate (NO ATL)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3481.msg69258#msg69258 (you were astonished with him lengthening so much without atl)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3481.msg69261#msg69261 (says he is not the onlu one)
6. Espresso (ATL, you asked him)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72482#msg72482 (mentiones he did atl, see the entire conversation between the two of you)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72487#msg72487 (same questions of yours. I know your intention is fine. But your doc was differnt. this thread is only about Pilis patients.)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72488#msg72488 (says he is fine)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4397.msg68371#msg68371 (different thread where espresso asks about the rumors regarding ATL, you have your comments a few post above. here is camillo replying to you)
Shadow(might have had atl, dont know he dint update though).
KiloKahn mentioning parihars view regarding ATL:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=634.msg11951#msg11951
"If equinous is severe he would do a tendon release. As far as losing push off strength, he said it only matters if you want to be Usain Bolt or something, but it should not affect your day to day activities or your ability to do recreational sports. He said they can lengthen the tendons with what they call percutaneous techniques, where they basically slide the fibers. It leads to a certain amount of weakness but he said the data available shows it's not a significant loss in strength. He also said that the problem is that in medicine not everything is documented and not everything can be documented either. The example he gave was that if he does CLL in 10 patients and they are all from different backgrounds with different physiques, then you cannot extrapolate the results because there will be individual differences, just like how a bunch of siblings raised the same and having the same genetics may have different allergies from each other. So there are things that are reasonable and logical but not always 100% true, which is why one can argue many different ways."
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Conclusion, not all patients under Pili/catagni had ATL(3/6 diaries had), and those who had, did well enough later on.
Regarding video of running/jumping, its people's choice if they need to put it. In case I require ATL to achieve my goal and I do it, I would post it post recovery. I do post my photos for 2-3 days before removing it later on. I am on no ones side again. I just go with the data.
If you or the OP or anyone has proper data to show ATL under Pili/Catagni is disaterous, please post it. They said all of their patients turned out fine. Assuming all is a large percentage, I still feel its a risk similar to LL under a good doc. The choice is one's own.
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FTN, even Catagni says there is a loss of power.
Loss of power does not mean that you run 1 second slower at 100m, means that your legs feel different than before.
Every research that has been done on patients after atl report strength reduction at least 40% (the more the lengthening the more the reduction) and finally, what you cant understand is that it is not doctor's technique that make this surgery unacceptable, its the surgery per se.
Altering tendons length is not like lengthening the bone, it makes tension and power go completely off. Even 1cm atl will lead to terrible gait disturbance and loss of power, and most doctors do at least 2cm.
Anyway, you are so persistent about things that you don't have any personal experience. Its your right, and it is my duty to keep people away that crappy surgery.
I wonder why some people (2 exactly) that wrote me in pms' here if my tendon shortening surgery was successful because they are so devastated from their atl that think even about suicide why they don't write here to help other people to not do that surgery.
Maybe they dont care anymore because their lives are doomed, I dont know.
But I struggled a lot to get away with that insane surgery and now I live completely normal after my tendon shortening which, guess what, it made me have an bf of about 2cm. But I dont care at all, I prefer 1000 times to have strong legs with a minor ballerina than weak sloppy legs that have 500 degrees of dorsiflexion.
And finally, Catagni is a legend with Ilizarov. About tendons he doesn't know a and his knowledge is what doctors knew 30 years before.
If you want to know about tendons and atl, ask dr Mafulli, he is Italian too and considered the best in the world about achilles tendon.
Ask him his opinion about atl and then come again here to tell us what he told you.
Anyway, I am out of this conversation. Anyone can believe what he wants, but noone can say when he is ruined from atl that I havent warned him. Anything else is up to you.
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then all those who stretch 7-8 cm have a horse's foot ...
the streching does not stretch the tendon so much ... Then the LL works up to 5 cm maximum 5 1/2 .. And at this point I say it's worth ..?
I have to operate in October / November with Catagni but at this point I want to know more about the extension of the ATL ..
On the forum there is a patient LUMIERE who finished the other year, did 7.5 cm on the tibia without doing ATL says from what I read that has only a little tension in the calf .. but at this point or is very lucky or ......
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http://drpiliortopedico.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_1853.jpg
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http://drpiliortopedico.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/PRIMA-E-DOPO-8-cm-1-mese-post-rimozione-11-mesi-post-op.jpg
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practically on the page says that the patient 1 month after the removal of the apparatus dances .... it has only some difficulty to run and has done ATL as seen from the previous link
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in my opinion OH SO ARROGANT did not talk to the patients ... I realized that many people speak but do not have the courage or funds and try to discourage instead those who want to do it and have the possibility ... even though the risks of problems there are and ATL is one of these
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http://drpiliortopedico.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/PRIMA-E-DOPO-8-cm-1-mese-post-rimozione-11-mesi-post-op.jpg
Wow, 8cm on tibias.
That's crazy and too much. How will his knees and tibias support all that upper body and femur mass over the decades? His t/f ratio is fxcked.
I wish the man in the pic the best, but I can't see him being fine in the long run. He should have split whatever his desired height was in 2 LL procedures, separated years apart. At least the looks of his tibias can be improved over time, as he recovers from LL and adds the muscle and fat back there.
I realize people don't want to go through LL more than once in their lifetime, and want the most "bang for their buck", but I am of the opinion we're all lucky height can be increased at all and that the long term matters more. Lengthen less, don't lengthen more than one segment at the same time, etc.
Of course, I'd also understand it more if the man was less than 170cm. Lengthening both segments in one's lifetime may not (and is probably not) possible for everyone, and for men under 170cm it is understandable they'll try pushing the limits.
It does worry me, though; people with shoulder/elbow arthritis have difficulty lifting really low weights. That can't translate well to your legs in old age, and too big of tibias for shorter femurs are associated with developing arthritis in the knees and hip.
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those are procedures you do once in a lifetime ... unless you're dwarfed
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8cm on Tibias just seems like a lot. His proportions are pretty shxt but he got the height I guess. For everyone trying 8cm+ on the tibias i'm sure there are multiple problems for every outcome like this.
Again I don't try to being negative but just look at him. He did ATL too? Looks horrific.
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those are procedures you do once in a lifetime ... unless you're dwarfed
In no way that means a 173cm man should go for 8cm in his tibias, only to look so disproportionate and risk so much pain later in life.
Sweden was in the exact same situation and height (173cm) and always stressed to not go over 5cm - after he did go over that number himself.
Your legs won't ever be the exact same after LL. Don't be greedy and go over the quoted safer numbers for the bones unless you have a very good reason to try (this generally involves being super short).
You can also say it's a once in a lifetime thing, and that may be true for femurs. But the more you lengthen your tibia, the worse your t/f ratio will become, and that's associated with a horde of problems (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436).
8cm on Tibias just seems like a lot. His proportions are pretty shxt but he got the height I guess. For everyone trying 8cm+ on the tibias i'm sure there are multiple problems for every outcome like this.
Again I don't try to being negative but just look at him. He did ATL too? Looks horrific.
To be fair here, it says the picture was taken 1 month post frame removal, if I'm not mistaken. Naturally, the muscles are all atrophied. The appearance should improve over time, but the disproportional looking tibias won't.
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http://drpiliortopedico.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DSC_1856_20160706_170621-e1468154719604.jpg
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http://drpiliortopedico.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/PRIMA-E-DOPO-8-cm-1-mese-post-rimozione-11-mesi-post-op.jpg
He looks really bad.
And a respectable doctor dont let a patient go so much out of proportions, not only for aesthetical reasons but for medical reasons too un the future.
I did 7.5cm at an 1.68 height and I look way better because my tibias were too short.
That man looks really bad. He should have lengthened femurs or not go over 5cm on tibias.
I used to suggest Pili and Catagni for external LL but with all that cases of so much out of the safe zone lengthening and the frequency they do atl they start to seem like doctors for a freak show.
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He looks really bad.
And a respectable doctor dont let a patient go so much out of proportions, not only for aesthetical reasons but for medical reasons too un the future.
I did 7.5cm at an 1.68 height and I look way better because my tibias were too short.
That man looks really bad. He should have lengthened femurs or not go over 5cm on tibias.
I used to suggest Pili and Catagni for external LL but with all that cases of so much out of the safe zone lengthening and the frequency they do atl they start to seem like doctors for a freak show.
Yeah. That guy's tibias were already on the longer side. That contributed to it.
This is the first LLer I see that I clearly think "this is noticeably disproportionate". I never had that impression before with the after pics. EDIT: Even for that 170cm guy who did a 12cm a mockup of tibias + femurs.
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Pili is still taller than him. Pili is about 5'10" from my estimates.
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Pili is still taller than him. Pili is about 5'10" from my estimates.
Nah, that can't be right. The LLer is now 181cm (just over 5'11). I think they look about the same height now. So it's more like Pili is 5'11.
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Nah, that can't be right. The LLer is now 181cm (just over 5'11). I think they look about the same height now. So it's more like Pili is 5'11.
I fxcking suck with the cm to height. I'm just gonna stop commenting on it.
Anyway yes keep in mind Pili has no footwear on either
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Hi, Prakash - welcome back. Do you have more information on this topic?
Hei, thanks a lot. Not much, I wrote what I know. I think the best thing to do is to maybe get inputs from 5-6 good LL surgeons on the topic and make the decision. Thanks.
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That side by side surely isn't accurate? He's 5'11" towering over his 5'8" self? I don't see that being realistic.
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Nah, that can't be right. The LLer is now 181cm (just over 5'11). I think they look about the same height now. So it's more like Pili is 5'11.
I hear Parihar is like 6'1-6'2, he does not need to perform LL on himself for sure :)
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BodyBuilder, I know your experience with ATL was bad and all you are doing is spreading the word. LL, the surgery, in itself is risky, there are bad outcomes in LL, doesnt mean all such patients dissuade to do it under any doctor. No offence to you, I really respect and look up to you. You know that too.
But I feel if a doctor is good and confident and has good outcomes with his patients after the surgery then it is fine. SO IT MAJORLY DEPENDS ON YOU, THE DOCTOR SKILLS, AND THE TECHNIQUE.
I dont trust Paley more than Catagni(Paley learnt from him and has very high regards for Catagni), not for tibias and definitely not for externals.
I by no means support any doc, but I dont like the baseless(without data) accusation on the doctors. I am speaking with data. If I were to do my femurs, since there is not much data on Catagni/Pili, I wouldnt go with them either. Also regarding "defending my doctor", I have written about my doctor being not responsive over mail after the surgery. So I do not take sides. I do see by experience and data, he can perform a good surgery though. He doesnt entertain otherwise.
Please name the "respectable" docs. I feel you would say Paley and few more against ATL. To you because, ATL was not good for you and some more patients, any doc performing it is "not respectable", instead of seeing the results and beliveing what these patients have to say. That way, any one with bad LL, would consider any doctor performing LL itself "not respectable".
Since you asked some places where people said they are doing fine, here...you have your comments in many of these conversations:
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1. NOTTOOTALL: (you asked him, he had ATL..complete the link by filling old forum.org between "www." and "/index..."):
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107096.html#msg107096 (says he is fine)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107126.html#msg107126 (you again curious abt ATL and were puzzled he could walk so soon)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107208.html#msg107208 (he clarifying again that he feels much releived)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107306.html#msg107306 (can walk much much better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107345.html#msg107345 (repeating it)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107911.html#msg107911 (you still have your doubts)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg107912.html#msg107912 (he is again telling you he did ATL for the better)
http://www. /index.php/topic,7920.msg109144.html#msg109144 (OP says he can run)
2. CAMILLO (had ATL you dint ask him though, but he replied to you in a different thread..complete the link by filling old forum.org between "www." and "/index..."):
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109195.html#msg109195 (says no issue post ATL)
http://www. /index.php/topic,8055.msg109221.html#msg109221 (suggests ATL too with a good doc, says it depends on your docs skills)
3. Whereintheworld (dint get ATL):
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3582.msg59803#msg59803
4. Lumiere (said he too avoided):
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2161.msg37137#msg37137
5. Exagerate (NO ATL)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3481.msg69258#msg69258 (you were astonished with him lengthening so much without atl)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=3481.msg69261#msg69261 (says he is not the onlu one)
6. Espresso (ATL, you asked him)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72482#msg72482 (mentiones he did atl, see the entire conversation between the two of you)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72487#msg72487 (same questions of yours. I know your intention is fine. But your doc was differnt. this thread is only about Pilis patients.)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg72488#msg72488 (says he is fine)
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4397.msg68371#msg68371 (different thread where espresso asks about the rumors regarding ATL, you have your comments a few post above. here is camillo replying to you)
Shadow(might have had atl, dont know he dint update though).
KiloKahn mentioning parihars view regarding ATL:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=634.msg11951#msg11951
"If equinous is severe he would do a tendon release. As far as losing push off strength, he said it only matters if you want to be Usain Bolt or something, but it should not affect your day to day activities or your ability to do recreational sports. He said they can lengthen the tendons with what they call percutaneous techniques, where they basically slide the fibers. It leads to a certain amount of weakness but he said the data available shows it's not a significant loss in strength. He also said that the problem is that in medicine not everything is documented and not everything can be documented either. The example he gave was that if he does CLL in 10 patients and they are all from different backgrounds with different physiques, then you cannot extrapolate the results because there will be individual differences, just like how a bunch of siblings raised the same and having the same genetics may have different allergies from each other. So there are things that are reasonable and logical but not always 100% true, which is why one can argue many different ways."
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Conclusion, not all patients under Pili/catagni had ATL(3/6 diaries had), and those who had, did well enough later on.
Regarding video of running/jumping, its people's choice if they need to put it. In case I require ATL to achieve my goal and I do it, I would post it post recovery. I do post my photos for 2-3 days before removing it later on. I am on no ones side again. I just go with the data.
If you or the OP or anyone has proper data to show ATL under Pili/Catagni is disaterous, please post it. They said all of their patients turned out fine. Assuming all is a large percentage, I still feel its a risk similar to LL under a good doc. The choice is one's own.
If you trust Catagni/Pili more than Paley then I can only laugh at that, and FYI - if you follow Pili/Catagni diaries and discussions these doctors doll out ATL recommendation like candys - that is a huge red signal for me and that is the sole reason I never ever considered them and never will for my surgery.
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Goodmorning everyone,
is the first time I write in the forum I joined yesterday.
I should OPERATE in Lecco in October with Catagni, who is known to work with Pili.
The first thing that told me with great serenity is that generally after 5 cm of lengthening the Achilles tendon is extended and that it would have booked the surgery immediately after the first days of lengthening.
It seems strange to me that if it is so dangerous, it spoke calmly, also because being an Italian citizen, the intervention of the tendon is covered by the health system and not at the patient's expense.
I don't know anything about this, but if it's true that the surgery is covered by the health system it should set off alarm bells. Pili is writing himself cheques every time he successfully reccomends it
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If I'm luckly, I'm going to have tibial lengthening next year. Going from about 4'11 feet to 5'2. Still, short, but decent short for a woman. And, if possible, I will lengthen femurs after a few years and get to 5'5, but I can see myself not having much neurosis at 5'2. I will go to Pili. He is in my country, its price are great (he said, he will even give me the precice at 42000 euro, if I do two surgery), complications are paid by state, and is really a good orthopedic surgeon. You don't know him much, because he has no made a business out of cosmetic limb lengthening like Guichet and butchers like that. I've read an article about a woman who had serious bone issue, he was the one to fix it, after years of pain He mostly work under the national health care system, which means, he earns a fixed amount of money, doesn't matter how many operations he does. So, it's not true, he advices ATL to get more money. It's worrying that he does such operation, but I won't do it. I will strengthen and walk a lot, and use special footwear to firm by feet on the ground. Also, a minor ballerina, is better than having weak legs. I just wonder if ballerina feet cause posture issues, because I already have back pain and lumbar lordosis to fix.
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I just spoke with two different patients who had surgery with Dr. Pili. Both had surgery over 2 years ago and still can't even walk properly. They said running or playing sports is basically impossible. They both lengthened their tibia's and then had achilles tendon lengthening surgery recommended by Dr. Pili.
It is incredibly dangerous to surgically lengthen your achillies tendon. I never understood why Dr. Pili talks about it so casually as if it's no big deal and routinely recommends it. Now I find out his patients can barely walk.
Do they walk like this woman in this video? http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html (http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html)?
http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html
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Do they walk like this woman in this video? http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html (http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html)?
http://seikei.heteml.jp/621.html
What happened to that woman?
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What happened to that woman?
Perineal nerve damage