Limb Lengthening Forum

Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 03, 2019, 04:38:28 PM

Title: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 03, 2019, 04:38:28 PM
I had LL in 2007.  If you have any questions for me about the long-term effects of my LL, please ask them here.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: JohnSmith on November 03, 2019, 10:59:43 PM
Hello! Thanks so much for this. I have a few questions if you don't mind answering them.  :)

1. Do you feel like you have as much flexibility and athleticism as your Pre-LL self?
2. Do your leg joints ever ache more than usual and do you have fears of early arthritis? I just worry about being able to do something as simple as sitting on a wooden floor without pain.
3. How did you explain you height increase post-puberty to your friends and family? Did they believe your fib if you used one?
4. Did you get any stretch marks on your legs from the lengthening?
5. Is there any advice you could give me that you wish you had known before getting the surgery and recovery?
6. If you could talk to your younger self, would you still tell him to go forward with the surgery?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sanity on November 04, 2019, 08:45:26 AM
"3. How did you explain you height increase post-puberty to your friends and family? Did they believe your fib if you used one?"

ok this
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 04, 2019, 06:28:01 PM
1. Do you feel like you have as much flexibility and athleticism as your Pre-LL self?

No.  It's about 80-90%.

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2. Do your leg joints ever ache more than usual and do you have fears of early arthritis? I just worry about being able to do something as simple as sitting on a wooden floor without pain.

My joints do not ache and I don't have fears of early arthritis.  All the issues seem to be with the muscles, tendons, and ligaments; not in the joints' cartilage.

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3. How did you explain you height increase post-puberty to your friends and family? Did they believe your fib if you used one?

A few select people I told about the surgery because I had no way of hiding it from them, notably my mother.  She blabbed to a lot of other family members about it, and her lack of discretion with my secret was shocking.  So that contaminated a lot of possibilities for saying I grew.  A few people on the other side of the family whom I hardly ever saw (once every 5 years or so) noticed I had gotten taller and believed that I had grown between age 20 when they had last seen me and age 25 when they first saw me post-LL.  At least, they didn't verbally express their disbelief.

If you have a lot of friends and family that you see regularly, either tell them you're doing the surgery or ghost them and go start a new life after LL.  Or better yet, keep your social circle and don't get LL.  It's really weird for someone to get taller suddently, and people are very cognizant of others' height.  This forum wouldn't exist if height wasn't an extremely noticeable physical attribute.

Most of the time you will not get away with fibbing to anyone who knew you as a short guy, so don't try or else they'll think you're a liar as well as someone who got LL.  And keep in mind if those people know each other, the topic of your height increase will probably come up when you're not there.

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4. Did you get any stretch marks on your legs from the lengthening?

LL did not cause any stretch marks.

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5. Is there any advice you could give me that you wish you had known before getting the surgery and recovery?

It will probably take longer than you think to get back to normal, and it's very physically and mentally draining, especially during lengthening.  There's no way I could have worked or studied during lengthening, and I slept for 12 hours a night for over a year after doing LL.

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6. If you could talk to your younger self, would you still tell him to go forward with the surgery?

The answer is still yes, but we'll see.  I'm noticing more tightness in my legs now in my late 30s, 12 years after doing the surgery.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: JohnSmith on November 04, 2019, 09:25:19 PM
Thanks so much for answering my questions!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Canon on November 05, 2019, 09:08:00 PM
How much did you pay?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 06, 2019, 01:24:13 AM
$25,000
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sweden on November 09, 2019, 08:04:42 AM
Do you know your time for sprinting 0-100 meters?

I did my 7cm on tibias in 2013 and have now achieved the highest level of competitive martial arts - for men in my age(40+).

Of course I have aches and pain many days, but in 2 weeks I’ll be competing in European Championships! I’m just so happy to be “back in the game” again. I’ve achieved more than I ever thought was possible after having done LL, especially with my kind of complications.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: nomad13 on November 19, 2019, 07:00:05 AM
I recently did LL now in lengthening phase

@ Medium Drink Of Water
My joints do not ache and I don't have fears of early arthritis.  All the issues seem to be with the muscles, tendons, and ligaments; not in the joints' cartilage.
What are the issues that you have with muscles, tendons and ligaments.

How frequent are pains or tightness and how severe it is, does it prevent you or cause any discomfort in your daily activities?

Are these complications normal for everyone?

Are there any ways to undo these pains/complications after LL?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 19, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
Do you know your time for sprinting 0-100 meters?

No.

What are the issues that you have with muscles, tendons and ligaments.

Tightness in the right ankle, and easily fatigued tibialis anteior muscles on both sides.  I feel like those are absolutely maxed out geneically and will not grow anymore.  Just walking after LL makes them work harder than a tough leg workout did before surgery.

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How frequent are pains or tightness and how severe it is, does it prevent you or cause any discomfort in your daily activities?

No pain, not very severe tightness but it's always there.  It seems to be getting a little more noticeable in my late 30s.  I've recently started stretching and purposely walking a little differently to try to improve things.  I think I had developed a way of walking that was kind of "cheating", especially for that right ankle.  I hope I don't need tendon lengthening on my right Achilles.  10 years ago I asked Dr. Peng about it, and he said it wasn't bad enough to warrant surgery.   But now I'm thinking I should look into a second opinion about getting it done preventatively at this age rather than waiting another decade or two.

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Are these complications normal for everyone?

I don't know.  I wonder what my legs would be like with 5 cm instead of 7.5.

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Are there any ways to undo these pains/complications after LL?

Stretching, tendon release surgery, or leg shortening I guess.  :-\
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sanity on November 20, 2019, 03:05:43 PM
Wat were the advantages you think you got with an additional surgery after your main surgery (the IM nailing operation). Other than getting back home quicker, what other advantages you think it gave you over just the conventional standard illazarov procedure would have given. Thanks
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 20, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
Wat were the advantages you think you got with an additional surgery after your main surgery (the IM nailing operation). Other than getting back home quicker, what other advantages you think it gave you over just the conventional standard illazarov procedure would have given. Thanks

I heard that the nail prevents the leg from getting too crooked if the device is lengthening unevenly.  Other than that, none.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: wants2growtaller on December 07, 2019, 01:25:52 AM
What social advantages did you receive after cosmetic limb lengthening surgery?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: chaseyyyeung98 on December 07, 2019, 05:53:53 AM
Can you walk normally or do u walk a bit funny? When I say normally I mean as if you never had the surgery. Can somebody can tell that you had it just by looking at the way u walk.

Can you run/play high intensity sports/dance/kick? Are quick sharp movements too much for your legs. Are they too stiff? How much of your athletic ability pre-lengthening have u maintained would u say?

What is the safest method for either Tibia and Femur. External or Internal, LATN/LON? And assuming price isnt an issue, which one would u give the most height with safest recovery back to normal life

Who is the best and safest doctor outside the US (assuming price isnt an issue)
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 07, 2019, 07:41:18 AM
Can you walk normally or do u walk a bit funny? When I say normally I mean as if you never had the surgery. Can somebody can tell that you had it just by looking at the way u walk.

My walk is a little different than before LL.  It's less springy.  Somewhere between natural and walking in 3" platform shoes.  But nobody has ever told me I walk funny, or implied something was wrong with my legs just from seeing me walk.

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Can you run/play high intensity sports/dance/kick? Are quick sharp movements too much for your legs. Are they too stiff? How much of your athletic ability pre-lengthening have u maintained would u say?

I never wrote about my athleticism much on here in the past because I almost never play sports, but a little while ago I played 3-on-3 basketball with some middle and high school kids.  They were all shorter than me, probably 5'4 to 5'7.  I was able to run the court with them fine: I could always make it back on defense and get a hand in their face.  However, their footwork was a lot better than mine: they could get separation from me at will, so I didn't make any blocks.

It's just harder to move bigger things.  Imagine playing baseball with a bat that's 3" longer than regulation.  It's harder to swing and will go slower.  But you could use it, right?  That's a good analogy for my legs at this point.

About stiffness, that seems to be getting a little worse as time passes.  I'm planning to stretch more to alleviate that.  Honestly, I've been slacking off on my stretching for the past couple of years.

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What is the safest method for either Tibia and Femur. External or Internal, LATN/LON? And assuming price isnt an issue, which one would u give the most height with safest recovery back to normal life

I'd imagine that the safest is full external tibias, due to being the least invasive.  Just break the leg and put a few pins in it, and that's all.  It's what I was planning to do originally in Serbia until that started to not be an option, so I went to Beijing instead and got LON, since that's what they mostly did there.  I thought of doing full external there, but the cost to stay in the hospital for 4-5 more months was prohibitive.

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Who is the best and safest doctor outside the US (assuming price isnt an issue)

I don't know much about that since I'm no longer in the market for LL.  Probably Dr. Lee in South Korea.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Dreamer57 on December 07, 2019, 11:15:58 AM
My walk is a little different than before LL.  It's less springy.  Somewhere between natural and walking in 3" platform shoes.  But nobody has ever told me I walk funny, or implied something was wrong with my legs just from seeing me walk.

I never wrote about my athleticism much on here in the past because I almost never play sports, but a little while ago I played 3-on-3 basketball with some middle and high school kids.  They were all shorter than me, probably 5'4 to 5'7.  I was able to run the court with them fine: I could always make it back on defense and get a hand in their face.  However, their footwork was a lot better than mine: they could get separation from me at will, so I didn't make any blocks.

It's just harder to move bigger things.  Imagine playing baseball with a bat that's 3" longer than regulation.  It's harder to swing and will go slower.  But you could use it, right?  That's a good analogy for my legs at this point.

About stiffness, that seems to be getting a little worse as time passes.  I'm planning to stretch more to alleviate that.  Honestly, I've been slacking off on my stretching for the past couple of years.

I'd imagine that the safest is full external tibias, due to being the least invasive.  Just break the leg and put a few pins in it, and that's all.  It's what I was planning to do originally in Serbia until that started to not be an option, so I went to Beijing instead and got LON, since that's what they mostly did there.  I thought of doing full external there, but the cost to stay in the hospital for 4-5 more months was prohibitive.

I don't know much about that since I'm no longer in the market for LL.  Probably Dr. Lee in South Korea.

Here you say your footwork is slow and all....and your analogy explained it ...

Bt do you think if you did your surgery in the early 20s and trained hard, stretched a lot you could be back to normal in terms of athleticism? What about dance? Can you elaborate on that?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 07, 2019, 05:21:40 PM
If by normal you mean exactly the same as before surgery, I doubt it.  You have a biomechanically different body.  All that additional distal mass would be difficult to overcome just with stretching and exercise.  At some point the body maxes out.

Torque is the issue.  The farther the end of something is from its point of attachment, it gets harder and harder to move.  Dancing and kicking are especially more difficult after LL because of the extra torque required to move the longer legs that remain attached only at the pelvis.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Montreal172 on December 07, 2019, 08:22:02 PM
Do you believe the after-effects would have been less worst if you did the 3 inches on femur instead with Stryde for example ?

Read your entire diary man, you had one hell of a journey :)
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 07, 2019, 09:20:41 PM
Do you believe the after-effects would have been less worst if you did the 3 inches on femur instead with Stryde for example ?

Read your entire diary man, you had one hell of a journey :)

Quite possibly.  I think the muscles around my tibias are maxed out in terms of how much bigger/stronger they can get.  I think the quads/glutes/hamstrings could've grown more post-op to handle the new biomechanics better.  And the calf muscles : tibia length : thigh muscles : femur length ratios probably work better the other way around as well.

But in terms of cosmetics, I think high knees look better than low knees.  Here's an old thread this just reminded me of.  Caterpillars.  ;D

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=2043.msg32541#msg32541

And idiosyncratic to me, I had always had really tight hamstrings, so I might have avoided a potential problem up there by doing tibias.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: chaseyyyeung98 on December 08, 2019, 02:48:54 AM
Which is lower risk and has a better chance of you returning to normal life without any complications, change in gait or ability to play sports/make quick movements/dance external tibia or internal femur

(This also presumes that you lengthen a reasonable amount)
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 08, 2019, 07:19:40 PM
I and everyone I've talked to IRL only did LON.  I don't know anything about internal femur that wasn't posted by someone else on this forum.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Canon on February 11, 2020, 10:41:48 PM
What surgeon would you use today?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 12, 2020, 02:32:05 AM
You should always go to the best doctor you can afford, in my opinion.  In 2007 I had about $25,000 so my options were to pay a little for Dr. Mitkovic to do the surgery and spend the rest on living expenses in Serbia for 9 months, pay for a 5-month all-inclusive package in Beijing, or go to Egypt which would've been a bad idea. :o
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Dirona on February 14, 2020, 07:37:24 PM
What is the total amount of time it might take with Stryde(internal femur) to do LL?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 15, 2020, 03:17:03 AM
I don't know.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: corn on February 16, 2020, 02:23:24 PM
What causes the calves to become thicker?

How can I get back to the thickness before surgery?

Can I get back to the thickness before LL surgery if I have a shortening surgery?

What is the criteria for Fasciatomy?

Are Fasciatomy any male who don't do it?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 17, 2020, 02:39:29 AM
What causes the calves to become thicker?

I think they become thicker because it's much more difficult and strenuous to walk with longer legs.  Even standing is a little bit of a workout, because it's harder to balance with longer legs and therefore a higher center of gravity.

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How can I get back to the thickness before surgery?

I've heard of calf muscle reduction surgery but I don't know anyone who's had it.  Some people from the Bejing hospital thought compression socks would help, but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness.  Even if they do work, you probably wouldn't want them since your body is trying to help you balance and walk better by growing the muscles.

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Can I get back to the thickness before LL surgery if I have a shortening surgery?

I don't know.

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What is the criteria for Fasciatomy?

Exertional compartment syndrome is a criterion, maybe the only one; I don't know if there are others or not.  When your body pumps a lot more blood into your legs to keep up with increased demand, but the fascia around the muscle is too small, pressure will increase in the muscle.  A doctor will measure that muscle pressure, and if it's at a dangerous level, you're a candidate for fasciotomy.

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Are Fasciatomy any male who don't do it?

I'm the only LL patient I know of who's had it.  So it seems that it's not common.  I think that ectomorphs who lengthen a lot (that's me!) are the most likely to need it.  Mesomorphs who only lengthen a little are the least likely to need it.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: corn on February 25, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
Has anyone had a shortening surgery after Lengthening surgery? <Tibia or Femur>
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 26, 2020, 04:22:52 AM
Not to my knowledge.

I sometimes wonder if I should.  Whenever my legs feel tight or stiff, it makes me think I might've overdone it.  It's only going to get worse as I get older.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: lelouche on February 29, 2020, 03:54:30 AM
would you advise me against going for 7cm tibias?

Would you choice now femur, even long tibia looks better?

Have you before/After pics of your legs?

thx :)))
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 29, 2020, 05:21:57 AM
would you advise me against going for 7cm tibias?

Would you choice now femur, even long tibia looks better?

Have you before/After pics of your legs?

thx :)))

Yeah, I think I would advise against 7cm on tibias.  The culture was different back in 2007: 7.5cm was considered average and reasonable, 10 was extremely ambitious but possibly doable (maybe you'd have to stop at 8.5 or 9), and 5 was a very conservative goal.  LL Forum changed that culture, so I wish it had been around back then.

One of the Beijing guys who did 5 got the feeling that a lot of fellow LLers there thought he was wasting his time and money to go all the way there and leave with just 5cm.  He said he had the means to go to Paley and get internals, but he had a correction that needed to be done also and Paley told him those would be two separate operations.  I think the insurance was going to pay for some of the correction but wouldn't do it if he were combining it with CLL, and he didn't want two surgeries, and that's why he ended up in Beijing.

I don't have any before pictures.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sanity on March 09, 2020, 06:34:33 AM
Hello MDOW. How do you and/or your friends feel about your tibias when sitting while tibias are exactly perpendicular to the floor on a chair?
Did you try experimenting with different clothing techniques to reduce the super-long look at that angle?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: mailaozu on March 09, 2020, 02:00:03 PM
Hi! its been some years since your surgery. How is your life so far? Do you still feel any pain in your legs some time? What are the difference in your legs before and after op? thank you so much
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 09, 2020, 11:15:43 PM
Hello MDOW. How do you and/or your friends feel about your tibias when sitting while tibias are exactly perpendicular to the floor on a chair?
Did you try experimenting with different clothing techniques to reduce the super-long look at that angle?

Nobody's noticed anything while sitting yet, interestingly.  I hardly ever sit like that because it puts a lot of pressure on my feet.  I usually put the shins at an angle.

One person noticed my standing knee height but chalked up to genetic differences.  I think the knowledge that you had LL or the presence of scars might make people think something happened surgically.

I was kind of surprised that pants don't seem to be an issue at all.  The place where the knee seems to be intended to go by the designer is usually right around where my knee is.  Pants fit me a lot better than they ever did.  One of the reasons, in fact the final straw that broke the camel's back and started my LL journey, was clothing.  There was a pair of pants I liked so much...  ;D
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 09, 2020, 11:25:26 PM
Hi! its been some years since your surgery. How is your life so far? Do you still feel any pain in your legs some time? What are the difference in your legs before and after op? thank you so much

My life is all right.  I'm happier with myself and my place in the world now.  I don't think I'd have that same level of contentment if I'd stayed shorter.  This was a permanent improvement and not temporary relief from a temporary, imagined fixation that wouldn't help me at all.  It certainly did not fix every issue I had in life, nor did I expect it to.

My knees are sensitive right where the doctor opened them up to insert the nails.  I don't notice it unless I kneel, but they're very sensitive if I'm kneeling on a hard surface.  Soft surfaces, no problem though.

The legs feel a bit stiff sometimes.  Unrelated to that, the tibialis anterior muscles are quite weak and get tired easily.  I think the other calf muscles actually were able to grow enough and adapt to the new biomechanics, but not those.  A new discovery as previously I've just told people on here that the legs are weaker, but I've isolated the problem to those muscles based on practicing certain movements that use thsoe heavily and those that don't use them much.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: 184dream on March 28, 2020, 02:12:49 PM
I am concidering ll i have one question my friend
After 20 year or 15 yrs of lenthening may i encounter muscle stiffness or different sensation in posterior vs interior muscles of tibia does it feel normal seriously thanks in advance sorry for my poor english.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 30, 2020, 03:53:43 AM
I don't notice a difference in sensation.

More stiffness in the posterior/lateral muscles of the calf.  Not much stiffness in front, but those muscles (tibialis anterior) didn't develop enough size/strength to handle the new bone length, so they get tired easily.  I had a fasciotomy on the tibialis anterior muscles, and this helped some.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: james696969 on March 30, 2020, 08:57:58 AM
Why didn't you do femurs?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Megaman(blueboy) on March 30, 2020, 09:10:35 PM
Would you say it's harder to put on muscle on your tibia and femur after the surgery? Would you recommend putting on muscle before getting them done?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 31, 2020, 02:21:05 PM
Why didn't you do femurs?

Do you mean instead of or after?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 31, 2020, 02:35:27 PM
Would you say it's harder to put on muscle on your tibia and femur after the surgery? Would you recommend putting on muscle before getting them done?

It's easier to put on muscle after the surgery because your legs have to work so much harder to perform the same movements.  I have big, thick calves now.  Used to have skinny ones.

The problem with putting on muscle before surgery is that your muscles will resist the action of the device, possibly leading to misalignment.  The guys with thick legs at Guang Ji hospital were generally in more pain than everyone else that whole time, and they told people skinny is better.

But Dr. Guichet wants patients to put on muscle, or at least be strong and muscular before surgery; I speculate that he is afraid people will lengthen more than their muscles can catch up with long after LL.  This is what went wrong with my tibialis anterior muscles.  If I'd had to perform well physically in order to justify more lengthening, I wouldn't have been able to do as much.  The approach of stretching out my skinny legs so much while I lay in bed all day caused my exertional compartment syndrome and the fasciotomy surgery 2-3 years after LL.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: james696969 on March 31, 2020, 04:24:02 PM
Instead, afaik femur recovery for 7 cm would be even better?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: lelouche on March 31, 2020, 07:28:29 PM
Do you know your time for sprinting 0-100 meters?

I did my 7cm on tibias in 2013 and have now achieved the highest level of competitive martial arts - for men in my age(40+).

Of course I have aches and pain many days, but in 2 weeks I’ll be competing in European Championships! I’m just so happy to be “back in the game” again. I’ve achieved more than I ever thought was possible after having done LL, especially with my kind of complications.
do you still have pain? I am planning to do 6.5 or 7cm in my tibias (femur is already a bit long) But do not want to loose my athleticism (19 years old).
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 31, 2020, 10:51:20 PM
Instead, afaik femur recovery for 7 cm would be even better?

I told Professor Xia that I wanted 7.5 cm and was open to either.  He recommended tibias, probably because it's less painful and difficult to do externals on them, and he only offers externals.  He was also of the opinion that most short people have disproportionately short tibias.  It said that (and probably still does on the institute's website if it's still up); but I don't know if that's really true or not.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: james696969 on April 01, 2020, 09:45:19 AM
What's your sitting height and has that been a problem? Mine is like 85 cm and I'm worried that I'll look weird at 175 cm or beyond and it makes 180 out of the question although I'd be ecstatic to reach it. Hopefully working glutes can make me reach 87 cm of it.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sanity on April 05, 2020, 09:41:41 PM
Hello mdow. at my xray place they have some magnification of the xrays around (10-15%) so it makes a 5cm distraction appear like a 5.8cm distraction. did u ever ask about if there was any magnification. also wat other reliable methods u were using to get very accurate down to the cm's. even measuring on the stadiometre at morning and night will give different results because spines shrink by 0.5-1 inch by bedtime.  Wat i mean is like know fr sure it was 7.5cm instead of 7cm or even 6.5cm.  ur info cud be helpful to me aswell. thanks.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 09, 2020, 04:45:47 AM
What's your sitting height and has that been a problem? Mine is like 85 cm and I'm worried that I'll look weird at 175 cm or beyond and it makes 180 out of the question although I'd be ecstatic to reach it. Hopefully working glutes can make me reach 87 cm of it.

I don't know my sitting height.  It's not something I ever considered.  Other factors affect how much you can get away with lengthening as well.  Dr. Mitkovic mentioned that broad hands will help - just having big gorilla paws will make elongated tibias seem less noticeable.  I'm sure there are other things as well.  So proportionality is just one of those things you have to eyeball.

Hello mdow. at my xray place they have some magnification of the xrays around (10-15%) so it makes a 5cm distraction appear like a 5.8cm distraction. did u ever ask about if there was any magnification. also wat other reliable methods u were using to get very accurate down to the cm's. even measuring on the stadiometre at morning and night will give different results because spines shrink by 0.5-1 inch by bedtime.  Wat i mean is like know fr sure it was 7.5cm instead of 7cm or even 6.5cm.  ur info cud be helpful to me aswell. thanks.

I never asked about magnification, but I'm sure they knew about it and knew how to correct for it.  They always were doing some calculations with a calculator or with pencil and paper when doing my x-rays and giving me my progress reports.  I just used measuring tape on the wall other than that, and when I got back I was 3 inches taller on my wall at home that I had marked from 5'6 to 6'0.  I don't know if it was exactly 7.5 cm or not that I gained, but it was close.  Orthopedic surgeons are quite good at what they do, even in non-1st world places.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: 184dream on April 13, 2020, 09:22:03 AM
hi medium drink of water thanks for answering my previous question do you recommend doing more than 5 cm for tibia or femur in the prospective of tendon and aging or from what you see does it the right thing to concider .now  i am saving . what do you mean by get tired easily if concidering daily activites does it bother you every day and night . feel free to answer any time  sorry for my poor english   
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 13, 2020, 04:36:26 PM
hi medium drink of water thanks for answering my previous question do you recommend doing more than 5 cm for tibia or femur in the prospective of tendon and aging

The less you do the better.  Best for all of us not to do the surgery at all, right?

But if you're going to do more than 5 cm on a bone, it should probably be femur.  They have more biological infrastructure around them - thicker tendons, more blood supply, bigger muscles, etc.  I think the thighs can better handle the increased bone length.

Quote
what do you mean by get tired easily if concidering daily activites does it bother you every day and night . feel free to answer any time  sorry for my poor english

By get tired easily, I mean it's harder to perform those movements, so the muscles get fatigued.  I need to stop and rest more often.  Lengthening a limb makes it more difficult to move that limb; this is a property of physics that applies to any object.  So it's harder work for me to walk now because of the longer tibias.

Imagine being a weak person who can't get any stronger through exercise.  That's what I experience with my tibialis anterior muscles.  They can't grow any more.  They can't get any stronger than they are now.

It doesn't bother me often.  I don't live a very active lifestyle anyway.  Not before LL and not now.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: JohnSmith on April 15, 2020, 11:40:33 PM
Hello,

I have two more questions:

1. You said your knees are still sensitive on hard surfaces. Do you feel any pain in your knees from high impact like from running, jump rope, hiking, and/or climbing stairs? Are they sensitive enough where it hurts to sit Indian style or stretch?

2. I'm hoping to do 10cm, 5 in femur, 5 in tibia. I'm also considering to do humerus lengthening in my arm as well to match my new proportions. What's your opinion on that? Would you do that or am I overthinking my future proportions?

Thanks for answering my questions!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Kal el on April 16, 2020, 01:03:58 AM
Hey johnsmith bro..whr u frm and what are ur current body stats and measurements.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 16, 2020, 04:49:50 AM
Do you feel any pain in your knees from high impact like from running, jump rope, hiking, and/or climbing stairs? Are they sensitive enough where it hurts to sit Indian style or stretch?

No to all of the above.

Quote
I'm hoping to do 10cm, 5 in femur, 5 in tibia.

Sounds reasonable.  I probably would've gone to Betz and done exactly that if I'd been rich in 2007.

Quote
I'm also considering to do humerus lengthening in my arm as well to match my new proportions. What's your opinion on that? Would you do that or am I overthinking my future proportions?

You might not need to.  An armspan a few cm shorter than your new height would probably be acceptable.  Maybe do the 5 cm on femurs first and then see what your armspan/height ratio looks like once you get to 3cm on tibias, and decide from there?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sanity on May 07, 2020, 06:20:46 PM
hello mdow. 1 illazarov frame just came off from 1 of my tibias after almost a year. i have come to realize i just cannot flex my knees fully. I can extend them completely but there is good 40-50 degree i just cannot go beyond during flexion. this has really worried me. did u have this??
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 08, 2020, 05:06:35 AM
I did not have that issue.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: 184dream on May 14, 2020, 03:48:30 PM
Medium drink of water
You knew the old forum can you please tell me about doctors  i should avoid like yours about dr yaser and sarin the butcher
Can you give me a suggestion of cheaper doctor than paley in china india or greece as the cost is a major concern
Thank in advance

Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 14, 2020, 04:33:02 PM
I remember reading some horror stories there from Armenia and Iran.  I don't remember the doctors' names though.  It was too long ago.

I don't know what's going on in China right now.  It's probably not a good idea to go there anymore.  When the Beijing Institute of External Fixation existed, it was headed by Dr. Hetao Xia with Dr. Gang Li as his partner, and Dr. Aiming Peng as the younger surgeon who was doing most of the work and gradually taking over the practice.  It had the government's permission to operate and had lots of foreign patients who had contacts outside the place.  Now those doctors aren't even practicing in the same cities anymore.  If they're still doing LL it's with less openness and accountability, and without the support system of multiple qualified doctors in a large, dedicated facility like they used to have.

Drs. Parihar and Shah in India seem good from what I've heard.  Dr. Giotikas in Greece also seems to be getting good outcomes from patients on here.  Dr. Catagni in Italy has been practicing for a long time without any bad results I know of.  So look into them, keeping in mind that just because I haven't heard about bad outcomes from them doesn't mean there aren't any.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Ostentician on May 17, 2020, 11:03:12 PM
Hey. What kind of advice would you give a 16 year old who's planning on saving up for this surgery and doing it? Anything exercise related, savings related or health related?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 18, 2020, 02:08:01 AM
Nothing other than the obvious: be as flexible as possible, get plenty of money somehow, and be in good health.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: V on June 01, 2020, 08:55:45 AM
Well, you did the LL surgery in 2007 and its 2020 now, so after those long 13 years do you feel like your legs are in good health for your current age or do you have the feeling that your legs are like 10+ years older then the rest of your body?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 01, 2020, 02:02:17 PM
No, I don't feel like they're as healthy as the rest of my body:

They're stiff and I feel like I've reached maximum flexibility with them.
They get tired easier than I think they should/would without LL.
The skin looks a little bit splotchy and veiny, especially over the tibialis anterior muscles, and is injured more easily and takes longer to heal.  I bumped my shin two years ago (spring 2018) and broke the skin, and I can still see the mark.  If that had been on my arm, no way would it show right now.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: V on June 02, 2020, 12:23:36 AM
No, I don't feel like they're as healthy as the rest of my body:

They're stiff and I feel like I've reached maximum flexibility with them.
They get tired easier than I think they should/would without LL.
The skin looks a little bit splotchy and veiny, especially over the tibialis anterior muscles, and is injured more easily and takes longer to heal.  I bumped my shin two years ago (spring 2018) and broke the skin, and I can still see the mark.  If that had been on my arm, no way would it show right now.

Thank you so much for this answer, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write that! You're experience helps out alot of people you dont even understand.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: staytall on June 03, 2020, 11:08:33 PM
Hi Medium,
For tibia lengthening , is there any danger the fibula can get damaged? What is fixating it? From animations online of the nail procedure, the fibula is fractured so it can lengthen along with the tibia. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 03, 2020, 11:34:29 PM
It's theoretically possible for the fibula to get damaged.  In fact, that might be desirable if there's some tibia correction that needs to be done.  Maybe the tibia is straightened out while the fibula is left a bit warped/distorted so that the tibial correction could happen.

I think this might have actually happened to me.  I had duck feet before LL and they corrected that by twisting the tibias during the 2nd operation (frame removal and nail locking).  Most likely my fibulas are in an S shape now.

The fibulas are attached with two screws to the tibias - one near the ankle and one near the knee.

The fibula is not a necessary bone.  It doesn't do anything except maybe provide a little bit of stability.  You could be born without them and be fine.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Uzair Sain on June 16, 2020, 03:46:21 PM
What if you only did 5cm on tibia.
Do you still think you will have the same muscle problem or tiredness
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 16, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
Probably not.  I think I should have done only 5 cm.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ape on June 28, 2020, 05:29:24 AM
Hi MDW, I read a lot of your comments on this site and see you advocating for purely external tibia. Who are the doctors that does external? I've read so many patient diaries and almost all of them are LON. The one that says external in the title is LON too.

Also, how long do you think the whole process(surgery day to walking normally) will be to get 2cm?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: kats20 on June 28, 2020, 11:25:23 AM
I appreciate this diary as I think it highlights the importance of keeping to a 'safe' amount on tibias. It seems that damage after 4-5cm is exponential.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 28, 2020, 03:05:04 PM
Hi MDW, I read a lot of your comments on this site and see you advocating for purely external tibia. Who are the doctors that does external? I've read so many patient diaries and almost all of them are LON. The one that says external in the title is LON too.

Any doctor who offers LON can do external-only.  They just have to not put the nail in; everything else is the same.

Quote
Also, how long do you think the whole process(surgery day to walking normally) will be to get 2cm?

Dr. Mitkovic originally told me 9 months for 7.5 cm external-only, so I guess about 2.5 months based on that.

I appreciate this diary as I think it highlights the importance of keeping to a 'safe' amount on tibias. It seems that damage after 4-5cm is exponential.

Yeah back in 2007 10 cm was a lot but doable, 7.5 cm was average and reasonable, and 5 cm was highly conservative. :o
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: kats20 on June 28, 2020, 07:48:46 PM
do you think that shortening would alleviate most of your problems? I guess it's comforting to know that the procedure is reversible in a sense......

Like I said I appreciate how honest you are being.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 29, 2020, 06:01:13 AM
I think it probably would.  My problems aren't really that bad or keeping me from doing ordinary things.  A while ago I spent an entire day walking and hiking in a mountain park.

I really don't want to get that delicate, scarred skin cut open again, or pay for another surgery, or lose the height.

But it's something I've considered and might do if I ever start to have worse issues.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on June 29, 2020, 07:15:47 AM
Hey mdow, do you really think stryde is a game changer? Weight bearing increases bone growth? Would you have done stryde on your Tibias for it's easier process and rehab even knowing that internals can cause knee pain
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: IwannaBeTaller on June 29, 2020, 10:26:58 AM
I appreciate this diary as I think it highlights the importance of keeping to a 'safe' amount on tibias. It seems that damage after 4-5cm is exponential.

To be fair, we'd have to have a 'control group' of the same person who didn't do surgery and the physical grievances he would have. Pains and discomforts with one's body increase as one gets older.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: kats20 on June 29, 2020, 01:42:49 PM
I mean, yeah, if it was a scientifically rigorous study you would have a control group. But people who want to do crazy amounts of lengthening just seem to have a hard time accepting the anecdotal evidence that lengthening more than 4-5cm seems to lead to difficulties.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 29, 2020, 06:57:08 PM
Hey mdow, do you really think stryde is a game changer? Weight bearing increases bone growth? Would you have done stryde on your Tibias for it's easier process and rehab even knowing that internals can cause knee pain

It's certainly the best device, but not a game changer.  It is an incremental improvement over previous devices.  I bore weight on the Ilizarov frames and fixed-length internal nails and never had issues with bone growth.  None of my present concerns would be different right now with Stryde.

What I'd do differently if I had it to do over again is do 5 cm on externals only, or do internal femurs.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on July 06, 2020, 11:57:28 AM
Thanks for the response.

Would you ever advocate for internal tibias? Do you think the knee pain will affect someone's quality of life massively in their day to day?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 06, 2020, 04:39:55 PM
There are other options so I'd never advocate for it.

It doesn't affect my quality of life massively, not yet anyway.  I'm pretty sure it's tendonitis, which some people might not even get if they have the procedure.  My body has a very strong inflammatory response in general.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on July 08, 2020, 07:38:26 AM
There are other options so I'd never advocate for it.

It doesn't affect my quality of life massively, not yet anyway.  I'm pretty sure it's tendonitis, which some people might not even get if they have the procedure.  My body has a very strong inflammatory response in general.

Thanks MDOW. Really good to have a veteran consistently still visit and help us newbies.

What hypothetical "additional" side effects do you have from doing 7.5cm versus if you had just done 5cm. Of course this is hard to answer as you never did 5cm, but a guess would be great.


And what are the exact negative parts of your knee? Like does it hurt alot when you kneel on the floor, does putting your other leg on your knee like how some people rest like this hurt: https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.hellogiggles.com%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F01%2F25091715%2FGettyImages-462915449.jpg
Does this hurt your knee? What if you lay down and do that?

Sorry for all these questions, thanks MDOW.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 08, 2020, 05:48:01 PM
What hypothetical "additional" side effects do you have from doing 7.5cm versus if you had just done 5cm. Of course this is hard to answer as you never did 5cm, but a guess would be great.

Nothing aside from the issues with the tibialis anterior muscles that I've talked about.  The tendons, specifically the Achilles, came out of it fine.  I know not everyone's do.  I can touch the floor with my fingertips while my knees are locked, in shoes.

Quote
And what are the exact negative parts of your knee? Like does it hurt alot when you kneel on the floor, does putting your other leg on your knee like how some people rest like this hurt: https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.hellogiggles.com%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F01%2F25091715%2FGettyImages-462915449.jpg
Does this hurt your knee? What if you lay down and do that?

It's tender and sensitive when I kneel on the floor.  Sometimes it feels clunky, like how I imagine the knee joint of a stiff suit of medieval armor might feel, when I move it.  No problem kneeling on soft things like a bed.  Crossing my legs like in that picture doesn't bother me at all.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on July 11, 2020, 03:34:32 PM
Hi MDOW. This is a highly opinionated question, so I want YOUR own opinion. Is wingspan to height ratio overrated?

 How much taller (or shorter) are you than your wingspan- and what's your honest opinion on the maximum limit of difference between wingspan and height where it still looks fine and not too weird. Obviously this is HIGHLY subjective, but I want your true honest thoughts.

Thank MDOW.

also is torso to height ratio proportions overrated in YOUR opinion.

Thanks bro
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 13, 2020, 04:28:17 PM
It's hard to say because every ratio matters to some extent, and they affect each other.  I used to look weird with my long neck, but lengthening the tibias actually helped me out aesthetically.  Right now my armspan to height ratio is 1:1.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on July 13, 2020, 04:50:09 PM
Hello, Medium Drink Of Water.

Unfortunately, I've got a lot of questions and I hope you have time to enlighten me.

I've already made a post about that but It didn't take much attention, so let me copy and paste the question here.

"The question is:

Let's give an example, a lot of people who had have the surgery on FEMURS, also thinking of doing it on tibias again.

Did you all get back to your daily rutine with no problems at all, and considering more cencimeters to look "better"
or is it just, you've already lost some ability to run and walk properly, and saying "f--- it, i'll also go on tibias since i've already lost my ability. I got nothing to lose."

That's insanely important for me, because I want to have 2 seperated surgeries and I want to know If people could get back to their rutine with zero problems, zero problems on running, stairs etc.

If people have lost their ability and say YOLO and go for another 5cm, I won't consider having 2 surgeries.

Also, is it possible to bend your knees 180 degrees after 2 surgeries?
7 cm on femurs and 5 on tibias."
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sweden on July 14, 2020, 06:19:45 AM
A: There will always be some sort of problems. You do a extreme surgery. You will always feel it a little bit, if everything turns out the best.

You can do sports and everything. It will never be as easy as before the surgeries.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on July 14, 2020, 11:57:29 AM
I know, but that's the thing.

As your signature says, you are also thinking of going for another 5 centimeters on femurs.
Is that because the surgery itself was OK and very worthy, or do you feel like you lost some abilities and you don't care anymore?

Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sweden on July 14, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
I know, but that's the thing.

As your signature says, you are also thinking of going for another 5 centimeters on femurs.
Is that because the surgery itself was OK and very worthy, or do you feel like you lost some abilities and you don't care anymore?

I compete as a pro athlete again. Next year I was chosen for the world championships. Yes I feel soreness in my knees everyday but I can still be competitive, something I never thought was possible before the surgery.

I’m thinking of ~4cm. Quick and easy. Then I’ll be 184cm tall and I think it’ll be great.

But if I do it I’ll ruin my career that I’ve worked so hard for so it won’t happen within the next 4-5 years at least, if I ever do it.
180cm is not that much here in Sweden. You begin to be tall around 185cm.

I’m happier than ever before, but my dream height has always been 184cm.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on July 14, 2020, 01:35:53 PM
I compete as a pro athlete again. Next year I was chosen for the world championships. Yes I feel soreness in my knees everyday but I can still be competitive, something I never thought was possible before the surgery.

I’m thinking of ~4cm. Quick and easy. Then I’ll be 184cm tall and I think it’ll be great.

But if I do it I’ll ruin my career that I’ve worked so hard for so it won’t happen within the next 4-5 years at least, if I ever do it.
180cm is not that much here in Sweden. You begin to be tall around 185cm.

I’m happier than ever before, but my dream height has always been 184cm.

Is there a way to fix the soreness for the eternity somehow?

edit:

Forgot to say, I think If you've gone for 5 cm instead of 7, you could have been better now.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 16, 2020, 08:23:43 PM
Hello, Medium Drink Of Water.

Unfortunately, I've got a lot of questions and I hope you have time to enlighten me.

I've already made a post about that but It didn't take much attention, so let me copy and paste the question here.

"The question is:

Let's give an example, a lot of people who had have the surgery on FEMURS, also thinking of doing it on tibias again.

Did you all get back to your daily rutine with no problems at all, and considering more cencimeters to look "better"
or is it just, you've already lost some ability to run and walk properly, and saying "f--- it, i'll also go on tibias since i've already lost my ability. I got nothing to lose."

That's insanely important for me, because I want to have 2 seperated surgeries and I want to know If people could get back to their rutine with zero problems, zero problems on running, stairs etc.

If people have lost their ability and say YOLO and go for another 5cm, I won't consider having 2 surgeries.

Also, is it possible to bend your knees 180 degrees after 2 surgeries?
7 cm on femurs and 5 on tibias."

I didn't have two surgeries, so I don't have an answer for that specifically.  But after doing one surgery, I'm mostly recovered to the strength, agility, athleticism, etc that I had before.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on July 25, 2020, 03:28:05 AM
MDOW, you understand basal metabolic rate right? The amount of calories we burn just existing. Like a 6'0 man would naturally just burn more calories from existing than a 5'6 man.

Do you think your BMR has gone up from 5'7 man to a 5'10 man? Or would it just be a 5'7 man plus a tiny bit of extra BMR from the tibias.

Thank you. Obviously hard to measure, but I would consider questions like, could you eat more now than you did before LL and gain less weight?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 25, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
About the same as beore but with extra BMR for the tibias.  This didn't change the rest of me at all.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on July 25, 2020, 05:15:25 PM
Hello,
 
How exactly does our skin stretch and grow with your bones? When you get the surgery done, would the skin be more tight and understandable that you did something to your knees or your skin?
or is it just as same as before except the scars?

Best Regards
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 25, 2020, 07:32:36 PM
New skin cells grow, so it is not tight like you have a suit of skin your old size stretched over your longer legs.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on July 25, 2020, 08:09:14 PM
Thanks,

I've always worried about it although I've seen a lot of pictures of patients post LL and none of them had a tight looking skin. But still, was concerned.

Best Regards
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 07, 2020, 01:52:14 PM
Hello mdow

l have ll surgery in a few months ut I am worried, I do not know much about those who had this surgery and were disabled. What is the injury rate is this surgery?
is it worth breaking a leg to be 170 to 178.
Thanks in advice
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 07, 2020, 03:02:55 PM
Different doctors have different complication rates.

It was worth it to me, at least at the time.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: a on August 07, 2020, 04:27:41 PM
Hello mdow

l have ll surgery in a few months ut I am worried, I do not know much about those who had this surgery and were disabled. What is the injury rate is this surgery?
is it worth breaking a leg to be 170 to 178.
Thanks in advice

drxboom, gaining 8 cms is tough, I don't really recommend it (I'm not a doctor or anything, it just seems too high for me) but I can guarantee that you'll enjoy living infinite times more than you were 170.

178 is a good height. You won't really feel short at all. You won't feel tall either. But definetely it's going to worth it. (regardless of complications which have possibility to occur) IF everything goes well and you achieve to be 178cm, it's definetely gonna worth it. My starting height is kinda cool. I can be 5'11 with femur +7 cms. I won't feel short at all, I know. I even think that i'll feel kind of tall in some positions.

But just don't forget that, if you are someone who has always been trying to find flaws upon anything, like upon your body especially in this case, you might regret doing it. You might feel like your torso is small, your arms are small etc (for your new height). You need to consider EVERYTHING properly.


Best Regards
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: limbcllnea on August 09, 2020, 08:28:08 PM
1) You mentioned that if you had to do it over you would only do externals tibia 5cm or internal femurs 5cm. Can you elaborate a little more on why? (Was it the scars? Too obvious to others? etc.)

2) How many people that you didn't tell about the surgery were skeptical about your height? My biggest fear is my friends finding out if I were to ever get surgery.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 10, 2020, 02:40:29 PM
1) You mentioned that if you had to do it over you would only do externals tibia 5cm or internal femurs 5cm. Can you elaborate a little more on why? (Was it the scars? Too obvious to others? etc.)

Concerns about long-term issues with walking and balance.

Quote
2) How many people that you didn't tell about the surgery were skeptical about your height? My biggest fear is my friends finding out if I were to ever get surgery.

That's a very reasonable fear to have.  If someone who's obviously finished growing suddenly gets taller, people will notice.  That's especially true if they see scars on your legs.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: norway on August 11, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
Yes there is no getting away from people noticing your height change. Think like this: if no one notices, was your procedure even worth it?

You don't NEED to answer to anyone and can just shrug off any questions about this.

But if you are going to get married what would you then do? You can't possibly hide such a major procedure from a spouse and can't really stop them from telling whoever they want to tell.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 11, 2020, 03:27:44 PM
Yes there is no getting away from people noticing your height change. Think like this: if no one notices, was your procedure even worth it?

I think he exclusively means he wants people who already knew him not to know he had height increasing surgery.  In that case, the procedure might not be worth it since he'll be thought of as a short man on bone stilts.

Quote
You don't NEED to answer to anyone and can just shrug off any questions about this.

They'll figure it out, especially if you have no explanation and just get suddenly taller.  Everyone here already found out about LL.  It's not a secret.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: norway on August 11, 2020, 09:22:03 PM
From your writing it seems like getting this done is not a good idea even if 100% recovery is guaranteed. Unless you're like 18 and your family approves this idea and even pays for it. That's not the case with anyone really.

I wonder why people get this at all done then if it's a life of shame after doing it.

Do you see someone who had crooked teeth and got them corrected as 'someone who had crooked teeth and got them corrected'? Or a person with straight teeth?

I really doubt people will remember your old identity for long. I've even heard patients themselves claim that they don't remember being their old height at all.

The worst outcome is if you don't recover properly though. Then they will always associate any limping, etc with your surgery and remember it.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 12, 2020, 03:38:58 PM
Now you're getting it.  Here's the hierarchy:

1. Happy tall/average people
2. Happy short people
3. Miserable short people who got LL surgery
4. Miserable short people

Most people here are just trying to get from 4 to 3 because 2 seems so elusive.  :(
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 12, 2020, 06:19:41 PM
Hi mdow I don't get it, 3. Miserable short people with LL surgery .. why is it because of the inevitable injury? Because if the only problem of the people here is the size, happiness is inevitable after this surgery.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 12, 2020, 07:40:57 PM
If you think height is all you need to be happy, life has a nasty surprise waiting for you after you're done with LL.  Especially when you have a secret to hide: part of your height was unnatrually acquired through extreme cosmetic surgery, and people will think you're crazy and insecure if they find out about it.  And they'll be right.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 12, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
Are you hiding? Thank you for your answer
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 13, 2020, 01:05:40 AM
Yes.  I hide the fact that I had LL.

The main benefit of height is that it the more of it you have, the more formidable you are in the eyes of others.  It's different from braces on your teeth which don't do that.  If people find out you got taller through surgery, that might actually work negatively in terms of formidability. :o
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 13, 2020, 08:58:16 PM
anks mdow you are right, if people learn about this surgery maybe they will not welcome
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: norway on August 14, 2020, 05:35:20 AM
Now you're getting it.  Here's the hierarchy:

1. Happy tall/average people
2. Happy short people
3. Miserable short people who got LL surgery
4. Miserable short people

Most people here are just trying to get from 4 to 3 because 2 seems so elusive.  :(

This is a gross generalization.

1. if you go the airport full of strangers will people see you as 3 or as 1?
2. will people at your workplace see you as 3 or as 1?
3. will you not achieve anything else in life after LL? will it be the only thing you're known for?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 14, 2020, 05:41:14 PM
It's true that others who don't know you had surgery will perceive you as being naturally your new height because that's all they can see and would have no reason to assume otherwise.  Which is why we're all here.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 16, 2020, 05:42:33 PM
And also how about   Are the scars noticed when wearing shorts
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 16, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
That depends on how bad the scars are.  Everyone's will be different.  But there will be some scarring no matter what.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on August 20, 2020, 04:06:58 AM
What age did you stop giving a shiet about your height? About others? What age did you stop being superficial completely and caring about others looks mostly
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 20, 2020, 05:42:25 AM
What age did you stop giving a shiet about your height? About others? What age did you stop being superficial completely and caring about others looks mostly

37.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on August 21, 2020, 05:59:35 PM
Can you say it's one of the best things I've done in my life
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 21, 2020, 07:38:52 PM
Can you say it's one of the best things I've done in my life

I really don't know.  In the short term, sure.  I'm just worried it won't be worth it eventually.  Scared of problems in the distant future.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: drxboom on September 04, 2020, 06:56:12 PM
Yes, after this process, as you said, a new problem arises. surgery should not be understood by anyone
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: brondo on September 04, 2020, 07:37:09 PM
Hi Medium Drink Of Water,

If I plan on doing this procedure I plan to only do it only 5cm femur with Strydes with someone like Dr. Mahboubian. Do you think I will have future complications and problems or could I make a 100% recovery and return back to normal without problems?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 04, 2020, 11:40:42 PM
I don't know.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ghkid2019 on September 22, 2020, 07:11:42 AM
So MDOW, you did this surgery around 25/26 age right? I am wondering how your confidence changed in the direct few years right after you recovered from the limb lengthening ordeal. In terms of your personal confidence, social life, enjoyment out of socializing, and overall human connections. Obviously I know now that you stopped giving a sheit about height but let's say, late 20s, what do you think you gained from LL from a interpersonal aspect (that you probably wouldn't have gained without the surgery).

Thank you MDOAgua.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Body Builder on September 22, 2020, 01:35:24 PM
Yes there is no getting away from people noticing your height change. Think like this: if no one notices, was your procedure even worth it?

You don't NEED to answer to anyone and can just shrug off any questions about this.

But if you are going to get married what would you then do? You can't possibly hide such a major procedure from a spouse and can't really stop them from telling whoever they want to tell.
In every relationship I had after LL I never mentioned it and I just said I had a bike accident for my scars.
Even people who knew me before LL, although thought I looked taller (I can see it in their eyes) never mentioned anything about it and after a few weeks they were completely normal with me (maybe they have adapted with my new height).

I'll never tell about my past LL even if I get married. My fiance dont need to know and most probably won't understand the reasons and thinks that maybe I am a weirdo, without never thinking that with my initial height she may not even been with me.

So no, LL can be kept completely secret if you want and I truly believe that no woman needs to know about it.

Mdow I hope you are doing well. It.is always nice to see fellow LLers.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: ape on September 22, 2020, 11:43:07 PM
Considering he is Chinese and Asians have longer torso and shorter legs, perhaps that could be why?

Also, would you recommend your doctor for full external? I know most veterans don't really like answering the "noob" general questions and I apologize but if you can choose right now which surgeon would you choose to do full external with?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: precice strider on September 23, 2020, 03:20:26 AM
So MDOW, you did this surgery around 25/26 age right? I am wondering how your confidence changed in the direct few years right after you recovered from the limb lengthening ordeal. In terms of your personal confidence, social life, enjoyment out of socializing, and overall human connections. Obviously I know now that you stopped giving a sheit about height but let's say, late 20s, what do you think you gained from LL from a interpersonal aspect (that you probably wouldn't have gained without the surgery).

Thank you MDOAgua.

Ooh, circumventing swear filters in front of the moderator, that's brave
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 23, 2020, 03:39:47 PM
So MDOW, you did this surgery around 25/26 age right? I am wondering how your confidence changed in the direct few years right after you recovered from the limb lengthening ordeal. In terms of your personal confidence, social life, enjoyment out of socializing, and overall human connections. Obviously I know now that you stopped giving a sheit about height but let's say, late 20s, what do you think you gained from LL from a interpersonal aspect (that you probably wouldn't have gained without the surgery).

Thank you MDOAgua.

It was a big confidence boost at first.  Huge.  I spoke out more in groups and was more comfortable being the center of attention, and reached out to people individually without feeling as scared or unworthy of doing so.

And I still have the increased confidence; maybe I take that for granted now and should appreciate it more.

I think part of my lack of confidence came from being skinny also.  That three inch boost in height made me feel more formidable and less like a potential victim even though my weight hasn't changed much.  Height alone will keep many bullies away even on a really skinny guy.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Tomhard on October 10, 2020, 10:00:32 AM
Hey MDOW.
I did 6cm on tibia with Betzbone and im 4months Post surgery now.
My question is, when did you start so have a normal life again like going downstairs and upstairs and when did you ditch the crutches.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 10, 2020, 03:15:25 PM
That took me about six months, but it was gradual so the speed and confidence going up (and especially down) stairs depended on the situation.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Zion on October 23, 2020, 12:19:36 AM
Hey man really appreciate this post and your will to answer our questions...

I am almost 28 and ever since I was 14 I had a complex with my height (167 cm) and been thinking about it...so as just said, just for the confidence boost it may be worth it (and to overcome this complex) so although there could be complications afterwards like the ones you are having, I fear the other most (the one I live with...) because it makes me feel I live not to my fullest potential...if I can even give words to my feelings...

In the end to me its like this, you trade a mental issue for a physical issue...thing is complexes can endure a lifetime...even if happily married, wealthy, etc, etc...that's my fear...

Anyway, what are your thoughts on Monorail with LON as I may do that in Turkey

Do you ever feel like cold in your bones? where you had LL of course, like the sudden change of weather? specially on winter.

Pardon my ignorance but why is having longer legs a problem (if they are not extremely long) compared to people with natural longer legs than torso ratio?

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 23, 2020, 02:02:52 PM
In the end to me its like this, you trade a mental issue for a physical issue...thing is complexes can endure a lifetime...even if happily married, wealthy, etc, etc...that's my fear...

Yeah a lot of people are wealthy and either married or in a serious relationship who get this done.

Quote
Anyway, what are your thoughts on Monorail with LON as I may do that in Turkey

It's fine in general but there seems to be more risk of misalignment.  Take it easy while you're in those monorails because they don't hold the bones in place as well as the cages.

Quote
Do you ever feel like cold in your bones? where you had LL of course, like the sudden change of weather? specially on winter.

Nope.

Quote
Pardon my ignorance but why is having longer legs a problem (if they are not extremely long) compared to people with natural longer legs than torso ratio?

Compared to someone who's naturally proportionate to me, probably very little.  In fact, I had exceptionally great balance, flexibility, and agility at my old height.  I did gymnastics as a kid and wanted to be in contests like Amercian Gladiators or Ninja Warrior.  Maybe this is just what most normal people are able to do. :D
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SartBimpson on November 05, 2020, 12:25:24 PM
What has been the worst experience you've had as a result of this surgery? Also how tall are you now?

Do you think about how different it could've been had you gotten this surgery in the later years where technology has improved a bit since the initial surgery you've had? Seeing as we have PRECICE and STRYDE now.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 05, 2020, 03:22:07 PM
What has been the worst experience you've had as a result of this surgery? Also how tall are you now?

Definitely the exertional compartment syndrome.  Second would be the scar from where they broke the left leg.  It was big and hypertrophic, and in a place where skin is very thin/tight.  I had three surgeries on that one.  178 cm.

Quote
Do you think about how different it could've been had you gotten this surgery in the later years where technology has improved a bit since the initial surgery you've had? Seeing as we have PRECICE and STRYDE now.

The difference is small.  Fitbone, ISKD, Albizzia, and Bliskunov all existed in 2007 for people who wanted and could afford internal lengthening nails.  Those are improvements but didn't change the experience that much.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: AimHigh on November 05, 2020, 10:45:26 PM
 Hi, this is from previous post I made earlier this year...This Surgery has resulted in ongoing issues for me, both my Tib's (anterior) have skin numbness and tingling still after 4 years (Precice 8 cm LFemur, Fitbone 5.3 cm RFemur - both Retrograde i.e through the knee insertions).
LKnee now has max 130 Deg flexion with at times a strong pain in my distal anterior/lateral femur and superior lateral Patella, with variable associated uncomfortable swelling, RKnee is now very noisy and "clicky", which makes even light semi-Squats uncomfortable - both knees are always stiff (even worse in the mornings, and horrible in winter) and are at times quite sore around top of patella.
I still have a 2.7 cm LLD, and getting down and up from the floor is a struggle (even though I am  a pretty fit/strong  62 KG/179 cm) and I find it very hard to pick up something from the floor especially with a baby/toddler in my arms!).
Basically I dont take pain killers (I value my brain) , but I need a hot bath at the end of each day to soothe my aching knees and stiff back (and I try to eat a low inflammatory diet).
I can no longer run (chasing kids is out !), as my knee range is limited, and I do some kinda weird shuffle instead.
The Tib/Femur ratio feels strange (my tibias now feel stubby and ineffectual), and the Tib/Fem ratio looks weird and I am quite self-conscious about it (it was about 0.83, (ideal is 0.8), now about .74 Right leg and .70 LeftLeg).
Basically to feel 'Normal" I think I need to add the missing 2.7 cm to my R.Femur, and also add at least 4 cm to my Tib's (5cm would be ideal but time and risk factors preclude this ), this would bring my T/F ratio to ~ .77 i.e within the range of normal variation.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Gman23 on November 12, 2020, 08:49:45 PM
This is really helpful man thanks a lot. I have few questions for you.
Please reply if you have the time. You had the surgery done in 2007 which is more then 10 years and that’s shockingggg. I’m so happy for you... could you please tell me how your feeling now, if you can walk like a normal person, run like a normal person, if there are any difficulties.
Also could you please suggest a good surgeon for me who is fairly cheap about 50k or max 60k. I have Dr Giotikas and Dr Parihar in mind. Not sure which one to go for ... my goal to go for 2 surgeries, 5inches in total. Advice from someone like you would mean a lot to me. Please take your time and reply any feedback, advice, information is fine, thanks a lot! Hope your well, still can’t imagine how anyone is able to walk normally with 2 surgeries or even 1 it just seems risky and complicating even thou I have read alotttt of diaries...
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 13, 2020, 12:09:10 AM
could you please tell me how your feeling now, if you can walk like a normal person, run like a normal person, if there are any difficulties.

I can walk and run normally.  My balance is a little worse than it should be due to the higher center of gravity.  Sometimes my calves feel a little stiff, and I have minor tendonitis in my patellar ligaments.

Quote
Also could you please suggest a good surgeon for me who is fairly cheap about 50k or max 60k. I have Dr Giotikas and Dr Parihar in mind.

They seem like good choices.  I was also considering Dr. Jamal Abu Nemer in Ukraine when I was thinking of doing femurs several years ago, but his entry on the doctors page hasn't been updated since then, so I don't know what the latest on him is.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Gman23 on November 13, 2020, 06:28:23 PM
I can walk and run normally.  My balance is a little worse than it should be due to the higher center of gravity.  Sometimes my calves feel a little stiff, and I have minor tendonitis in my patellar ligaments.

They seem like good choices.  I was also considering Dr. Jamal Abu Nemer in Ukraine when I was thinking of doing femurs several years ago, but his entry on the doctors page hasn't been updated since then, so I don't know what the latest on him is.


Thank you for your advice and information. Means a lot. I’m happy that your able to walk and run.
I guess there will be at least 1 problem, will never really be 100%. I just hope I’ll end up doing the 2 surgeries and not back out by only doing 1. I’ll go 8cm first then I hope I’ll go for 5/6cm after. I won’t really be on this forum much as I’ve got the information I needed. I’ll be on some times.
If you know any diaries where a patient/someone has done 2 surgeries please let me know thank you !!! Stay safe
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Astronomy on November 15, 2020, 11:59:05 AM
Can I do 12cm on my height two years apart?

Me:
I'm a Chinese from Shanghai.And I've been being bothered with height dysphoria since 14.

My height:
I'm 162cm or so at night and 163cm at the midday(measured by wood-jointed height measurer for children and by myself without shoes and socks nearly bearheadedly).I wanna do 6.5cm on femur and 5.5 on tibia or 7cm on femur and 5 on tibia.
I dunno how that'll feel like and whether that'll be possible.

My flexibility:
I can palm on the floor and walk without any pain of tensing.My score of sit-and-reach is 31cm without shoes.(And it's still improving...I dunno why.It was 20cm at 15...Now I'm 20+ y.o).

Sizes of my feet:
I'm always wearing a pair of US8.5 shoes(They'd been at these sizes when I was 15) equalling to many 178+ men's.


My weight:
My weight is 54kg by now.Its minimum is 48kg and its maximum is 55kg(measured in the same year).In addition my back is a little wide.

My proportion:
I can't measure exactly but I asked my mother to count my proportion and she said my lower body was short and my upper body was long in all.

My physical condition:
Generally speaking it's normal by now.No diseases.Not infected with COVID-19.And no cyphosis.

And I can't measure other parameters determining how LL'll go.I'll show them on my doctors' X-rays or somethin
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SartBimpson on November 15, 2020, 02:19:29 PM


Sizes of my feet:
I'm always wearing a pair of US8.5 shoes(They'd been at these sizes when I was 15) equalling to many 178+ men's.


Hey, sorry if I'm derailing on MDOW's thread here, but I wanna know: Is this actually real? Since when is there a correlation between shoe size and height? I am 5' 7" and have a shoe size of 10.5 US.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Astronomy on November 15, 2020, 02:51:21 PM
Hey, sorry if I'm derailing on MDOW's thread here, but I wanna know: Is this actually real? Since when is there a correlation between shoe size and height? I am 5' 7" and have a shoe size of 10.5 US.
No one said shoe size is definitely related to height
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SartBimpson on November 15, 2020, 02:56:18 PM
No one said shoe size is definitely related to height
Yeah, that's what I thought. It just didn't make sense to me why you'd mention it is all.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Astronomy on November 15, 2020, 03:12:13 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. It just didn't make sense to me why you'd mention it is all.
I just thought that was counted into my body proportion.If you grow taller by 12cm but stand on 7US or even 6US feet then you'll look like a compass.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 15, 2020, 05:09:18 PM
Can I do 12cm on my height two years apart?

Probably.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 15, 2020, 05:14:59 PM
There is a positive correlation between height and shoe size; it's just not a perfect correlation.  Most tall people have larger feet, and most short people have smaller feet, in general.

176 cm with an 8.5 US men's shoe size is reasonable IMO.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: init1alove on November 16, 2020, 02:42:31 AM
There is a correlation between height and foot size, just like height and wingspan. Height usually is 7 times the lengh of foot.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: NotSoBigBadBruin on November 16, 2020, 09:58:21 AM
The normal height-to-foot ratio is about 6.6:1, according to data from the University of Rhode Island Department of Electrical, Computer and Biomedical Engineering. That means you'll generally have roughly 6.6 inches of height for 1 inch of foot length.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/491821-height-to-foot-size-ratio/
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on November 25, 2020, 03:41:55 AM
Hey MediumDrinkOfWater!

1. Did you ever get a tattoo to conceal your scars?

2. If you could do it again, what tattoo shape/designs would you get to best conceal the scars?

3. Do you regret doing scar removal surgery?

4. The pin sites- they are depressed/sunken in, right? Can they ever truly be hidden?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 25, 2020, 04:43:53 AM
Hey MediumDrinkOfWater!

1. Did you ever get a tattoo to conceal your scars?

2. If you could do it again, what tattoo shape/designs would you get to best conceal the scars?

3. Do you regret doing scar removal surgery?

4. The pin sites- they are depressed/sunken in, right? Can they ever truly be hidden?

1.  Yes.

2.  It doesn't matter, as long as linework as opposed to shading covers the scar.  Try to hide the scars in a line.

3.  No way.

4.  Some get that way, some don't.  A doctor can fix that before a tattoo is applied though.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Highest on November 25, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
I read earlier you were going to do femurs, why did you not get the femur surgery done? Are you planning it for the future to correct your tibia/femur ratio?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 25, 2020, 03:13:11 PM
I read earlier you were going to do femurs, why did you not get the femur surgery done? Are you planning it for the future to correct your tibia/femur ratio?

Money, and also my legs are quite long as they are.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Highest on November 26, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
Money, and also my legs are quite long as they are.

Like freakishly long? What is your inseam?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 26, 2020, 03:16:36 PM
No.  32".
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Tartar on November 26, 2020, 03:40:13 PM
No.  32".
If this is your true (no pants) inseam, standing 178cm, you're almost short legged telling the truth ;D
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on November 28, 2020, 06:10:13 PM
"4.  Some get that way, some don't.  A doctor can fix that before a tattoo is applied though."

What kind of doctor, surgery, and costs are related to removing the depressed/sunken scars of where the pins are?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on November 28, 2020, 10:48:20 PM
"4.  Some get that way, some don't.  A doctor can fix that before a tattoo is applied though."

What kind of doctor, surgery, and costs are related to removing the depressed/sunken scars of where the pins are?

A plastic surgeon can do that for you.  You can either get the scars cut out (and therefore replaced with thnner, flatter, lighter ones) or get the sunken areas filled in with fat or a synthetic filler.  Costs will vary quite a lot.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on December 07, 2020, 07:08:44 AM
If you were to do internals, do you think it is important to be as flexible and thin/low bodyweight as possible before starting? I imagine thicker legs = more pain to lengthen them?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on December 07, 2020, 07:10:39 AM
What are your thoughts on exogen? The sonic sound thing that supposed to improve bone growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFaquYiP2V0

Is it a hoax?

Is it worth the price/can you get it in Europe with Giotikas?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 07, 2020, 03:14:54 PM
If you were to do internals, do you think it is important to be as flexible and thin/low bodyweight as possible before starting? I imagine thicker legs = more pain to lengthen them?

Yep.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on December 07, 2020, 03:15:32 PM
What are your thoughts on exogen? The sonic sound thing that supposed to improve bone growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFaquYiP2V0

Is it a hoax?

Is it worth the price/can you get it in Europe with Giotikas?

Never used it; don't know anything about it.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Apollo676 on January 13, 2021, 05:33:38 PM
Hey,do you think 5cm on tibias with LON method is safe ? I wish to regain as much mobility as i can and not get too much complications in the long run,i'm planning to go for 5cm tibias,then 8cm femurs with stryde when i'll be able to afford it,as i heard that LON method on femurs is bad
I'm months aways from the operation,do you have any advices to ease the recovering process ? I'm planning to do yoga on a daily basis for several months
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on January 13, 2021, 06:45:36 PM
Hey,do you think 5cm on tibias with LON method is safe ?

Yes, that will probably be fine.

Quote
i heard that LON method on femurs is bad

Yeah, it's brutal.  Two people I've met personally did it; they were both miserable the whole time: lots of pain and very poor mobility.

Quote
I'm months aways from the operation,do you have any advices to ease the recovering process ? I'm planning to do yoga on a daily basis for several months

Good idea.  Also, there was a fitness book I followed called Elastic Steel.  It was pretty good as well.  Not sure if it's still available, but you might consider checking it out.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Apollo676 on January 13, 2021, 06:59:46 PM
But whats so bad about lon femurs ? Comparing to stryde for example,it's more painful during the actual lenghtning period for sure,but what about recovery,a patient who did lon of femurs can recover as best as someone you did stryde in the long term ?
What is the maximum amount you recommend on tibias ? I wonder what else i can do to prepare myself for the surgery,i'm doing a lot of biking as well,and i stopped lift weight on legs
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on January 13, 2021, 11:59:49 PM
But whats so bad about lon femurs ? Comparing to stryde for example,it's more painful during the actual lenghtning period for sure,but what about recovery,a patient who did lon of femurs can recover as best as someone you did stryde in the long term ?

One word, used by one of the patients I knew: agony.  Also, the scarring is severe.  I don't know about long-term outcomes.

[qupte]What is the maximum amount you recommend on tibias ?
[/quote]

I don't have a recommended maximum amount.  It depends on the individual.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on January 16, 2021, 02:45:46 AM
Hey Medium, what objects do you recommend bringing if any for massaging your legs if you are doing internals?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on January 16, 2021, 05:50:48 AM
At Guang Ji hospital they did something called bao jiao (bao means bun and jiao means foot), in which they soaked two towels in hot water, wrapped your feet in them and let them sit for a few minutes, and then massaged the feet with the towels.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on January 16, 2021, 09:20:07 AM
During leg lengthening, do you think any exercise beats walking around in your room with a cane/walker/crutches?

Even after getting a vaccination, it still seems a bit risky going outside + hassle to put on sunscreen etc

I thought about exercise bike but it seems like getting on the bike + falling off would be serious problems
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on January 16, 2021, 03:21:48 PM
During leg lengthening, do you think any exercise beats walking around in your room with a cane/walker/crutches?

In terms of risk/reward tradeoff, no.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on January 20, 2021, 06:21:49 PM
how long did it take for you to get the frames off after first surgery? Were you able to function unassisted after that? Thanks!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on January 20, 2021, 08:03:55 PM
4.5 months.

No, I needed a walker or wheelchair for a while.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SartBimpson on February 02, 2021, 09:51:07 AM
Did you have any regrets after the surgery? Also, if you could go back, would you change a thing or are you %100 content with your journey so far?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 02, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
Did you have any regrets after the surgery? Also, if you could go back, would you change a thing or are you %100 content with your journey so far?

Sometimes I regret doing it at all.  Most of the time I'm not even using my height, and that gets more true the older I get.  Senior citizens don't use their height at all; nobody cares how tall an old man is.  So LL does not give you a lifetime benefit.

If I could go back in time 14 years I might reconsider the surgery, but if I still did LL I'd get 5 cm on tibias with external only.  I think I'd have better balance, wouldn't have gotten exertional compartment syndrome in my tibialis anteriors, and wouldn't have tendonitis in my patellar ligaments.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: overandover on February 20, 2021, 12:18:56 PM
Hey MDOW,
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Is it possible to do remote work during the distraction phase? I mean mentally. I am planning to do tibia LON this year but I don't want to quit my job and it's a remote job. I just have to code on my laptop.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 20, 2021, 03:25:32 PM
It's possible.  Several fellow patients worked from the hospital.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on February 20, 2021, 04:36:14 PM
Hey Medium,
Appreciate your contributions in answering questions, here are some of mine:
1: Do you think 7cm is excessive for LON? What would be the maximum you recommend?
2: Do you have any lingering pain from your surgery back then?
3: If you had a second chance, would you do LL again?
4: Any advise for a person depressed and feeling inferior over his height? I'm only 5'4... I really hate my stature very much but I'm not sure if I should go over with this.
5. Did you experience an increase in attracting woman after surgery with your increased height?
6. How excrutiating is the pain right after surgery, during lengthening, and during consolidation for LON?

Thank you and I hope to hear from you :)
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 20, 2021, 05:59:09 PM
Hey Medium,
Appreciate your contributions in answering questions, here are some of mine:
1: Do you think 7cm is excessive for LON? What would be the maximum you recommend?
You mean tibias?  Yeah, probably.  Stick with 6.

Quote
2: Do you have any lingering pain from your surgery back then?
Some stiffness of the knee joints, and the tibialis anterior muscles feel weird.  They got exertional compartment syndrome and required a fasciotomy.

Quote
3: If you had a second chance, would you do LL again?
I don't know.  If I could go back in time and decide again, I'd at least be more hesitant.  I was 100% going to get LL back then with no doubts in my mind.

Quote
4: Any advise for a person depressed and feeling inferior over his height? I'm only 5'4... I really hate my stature very much but I'm not sure if I should go over with this.
Society sucks and you shouldn't care if anyone in it likes you or not.  It will crumble in a few decades anyway.  The U.S. will destroy itself in a civil war, ending the Pax Americana, leaving China as the dominant power in the world.  They will try to bully everyone like they bully their little neighbors now.  World War III with weapons of mass destruction will happen, global warming will continue to get worse and worse.  Tall, muscular, and fat people who need a lot of food will die out, leaving skinny 5'4 people as the master race.

Actually, just go get LL and enjoy the last few decades of peace and prosperity to the fullest extent. :P

Quote
5. Did you experience an increase in attracting woman after surgery with your increased height?
Yes.  Very much so.

Quote
6. How excrutiating is the pain right after surgery, during lengthening, and during consolidation for LON?
Not so bad if you don't move.

Quote
Thank you and I hope to hear from you :)
I reply to 100% of the questions in this thread.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on February 20, 2021, 06:07:44 PM
You mean tibias?  Yeah, probably.  Stick with 6.
Some stiffness of the knee joints, and the tibialis anterior muscles feel weird.  They got exertional compartment syndrome and required a fasciotomy.
I don't know.  If I could go back in time and decide again, I'd at least be more hesitant.  I was 100% going to get LL back then with no doubts in my mind.
Society sucks and you shouldn't care if anyone in it likes you or not.  It will crumble in a few decades anyway.  The U.S. will destroy itself in a civil war, ending the Pax Americana, leaving China as the dominant power in the world.  They will try to bully everyone like they bully their little neighbors now.  World War III with weapons of mass destruction will happen, global warming will continue to get worse and worse.  Tall, muscular, and fat people who need a lot of food will die out, leaving skinny 5'4 people as the master race.

Actually, just go get LL and enjoy the last few decades of peace and prosperity to the fullest extent. :P
Yes.  Very much so.

Not so bad if you don't move.
I reply to 100% of the questions in this thread.

Amazing bro, all I needed to hear. Always feel that I had to put in so much effort attracting my previous dates when other people do it so casually. I had to be like a jester to even get her to invest in me whereas my taller friends had girls crushing on them just for how they look. Being 5'4 really sucks. Glad to have someone like you in this forum!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on February 27, 2021, 01:43:28 AM
Hi MDOW,

Would you consider yourself fit enough for most sports? How much of your physicals do you think u recovered to?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 27, 2021, 02:37:45 AM
Hi MDOW,

Would you consider yourself fit enough for most sports? How much of your physicals do you think u recovered to?

About 80-90%.  A while ago I played basketball against (mostly) middle school kids and did pretty well running up and down the court.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on February 27, 2021, 04:01:09 PM
I looked through some of the older diaries and a lot of those have people complaining of chronic pain. Is it really true that you will probably live with chronic pain if you do it? I almost convinced myself to do it but I read of how you are essentially trading off one quality of life for another, makes me hesitant. For you, if you were to go back to your younger self, would you do it again?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 27, 2021, 07:26:24 PM
I looked through some of the older diaries and a lot of those have people complaining of chronic pain. Is it really true that you will probably live with chronic pain if you do it? I almost convinced myself to do it but I read of how you are essentially trading off one quality of life for another, makes me hesitant. For you, if you were to go back to your younger self, would you do it again?

I think it's a risk rather than a guarantee.  It depends not only on the skill of the surgeon but also on the patient's DNA.  Some people can tolerate invasive surgeries and body modifications better than others.

Just speculating here but I think if you're more prone to endogenous overreactions such as allergies, arthritis, and general inflammation you'll probably have a worse reaction to LL.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Dirona on February 28, 2021, 06:58:44 AM
MDOW, Could compartment syndrome lead to amputation?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on February 28, 2021, 03:27:41 PM
I don't know.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Jamesy998 on February 28, 2021, 05:03:55 PM
I think it's a risk rather than a guarantee.  It depends not only on the skill of the surgeon but also on the patient's DNA.  Some people can tolerate invasive surgeries and body modifications better than others.

Just speculating here but I think if you're more prone to endogenous overreactions such as allergies, arthritis, and general inflammation you'll probably have a worse reaction to LL.

Just want to give my two cents on this actually. I do think that you could also sort of see it during the lengthening period too. I could be wrong but for example in my case, once the surgical pains went away, taking in fact that I do not overdo the lengthening, I feel no pain at all so Im going to assume that it will stay this way.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Astronomy on March 03, 2021, 10:21:25 AM
Shin bones or humeruses are too thin to do LL?True?
I've heard that if your bones are too thin,then LL won't be adapted to you.
I dunno why,but I think myself...Maybe nails will hurt bones that are too thin.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: shaddygizmo on March 03, 2021, 11:05:19 AM
I'm looking to lengthen a modest amount of 3cm on both femur and tibs.
My main concern is avoiding long term effects and permanent damage, reducing risk, recovering as close too 100% as possible, Time is not important, Cheaper is good but not a priority

1. What methods should I use? I know externals on femurs is hell but I won't need to do it that long. Is internals on femurs at 3-4cm very safe? If externals on femurs are safer in the long run I'm willing to do it.

2.Which external is best for long term tibia recovery? I was considering Illizarov

I was considering Illizarov for both limbs since I'm not lengthening too much, cheaper, and it is the last non-invasive. I was considering Kulesh and Malang.
It is my intuition that even though the lengthening of Illizarov is longer (over LATN, LON, Precise, Stryde on femur), I will recover much faster in the long run because I don't have any objects inside of me. Am I wrong?

Thanks
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 03, 2021, 01:51:02 PM
1. What methods should I use? I know externals on femurs is hell but I won't need to do it that long. Is internals on femurs at 3-4cm very safe? If externals on femurs are safer in the long run I'm willing to do it.

I don't think there are any advantages to external femurs except cost.  But 3 cm isn't going to take very long and won't cause too many issues with the surrounding tissue.  Hard to say if it's worth the savings though.

Quote
2.Which external is best for long term tibia recovery? I was considering Illizarov

Ilizarov is good for fixing bends and preventing bends from happening.  You're more likely to get a misalignment from monorails.  But if done right there's no long-term difference.

Quote
It is my intuition that even though the lengthening of Illizarov is longer (over LATN, LON, Precise, Stryde on femur), I will recover much faster in the long run because I don't have any objects inside of me. Am I wrong?

The internal nail wouldn't affect recovery time much.  Putting something in the intermedullary canals isn't very disruptive to the body.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Jamesy998 on March 03, 2021, 06:47:41 PM
This might not be the same for everyone but at the end of the lengthening phase, did you noticed an increase in pain once you stopped lengthening? As if the body were to be catching up with the gains
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 03, 2021, 07:29:10 PM
This might not be the same for everyone but at the end of the lengthening phase, did you noticed an increase in pain once you stopped lengthening? As if the body were to be catching up with the gains

I noticed the opposite.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: canterk on March 05, 2021, 10:25:07 AM
If money isn't an issue would you recommend Precice or LON for tibia lengthening right now?

I'm not sure if I understand it correctly but it's possible to walk (crutches) with LON frames right? The patient won't be wheelchair bound unlike with Precice?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on March 05, 2021, 03:14:05 PM
If time wasn't an issue I'd get external only for tibias.  It's the best, least-invasive way that just happens to be the cheapest.

If money wasn't an issue I'd get Precise over LON.

It's possible to walk on crutches with frames, but it can be difficult, for some patients more than others, so there's no way to know for sure how much of a problem you'll have until you get them.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: chipsnsalsa on April 04, 2021, 08:54:47 PM
Hi MDoW, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

I noticed you mentioned that your surgery also corrected your tibias and duck feet. That is of interest to me, as I have bowlegs (not extreme, but noticeable). Did you speak to the surgeon or any patients who had had bowlegs previously which were corrected during tibia lengthening?

PS I must disagree with your assertion that nobody cares how tall an old man is. Height adds dignity, gravitas and status - think of Sean Connery in his later years. It will always make you more attractive to women and taken more seriously by society in general.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 04, 2021, 09:23:03 PM
A lot of people with bowed legs were there getting them corrected.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Deletedaccount_67574 on April 15, 2021, 04:49:36 AM
If back then you could afford an internal nail(Fitbone/Precise), would you do internal nails instead? So there's basically no pros of LON over Internal nails? Since both involve an internal nail afterwards.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 15, 2021, 11:12:32 PM
LON is the worst of both worlds so yeah, I would have done internals.  Pure external was my first choice but it wasn't possible for me at that time.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: 6CMFemurs on April 17, 2021, 04:08:09 PM
Hey MDOW, I am assuming by “Duck Feet” you mean external tibial torsion? How much did your ETT improve post-op? Do you think you are now in an ideal/normal range of torsion?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 17, 2021, 10:44:14 PM
Hey MDOW, I am assuming by “Duck Feet” you mean external tibial torsion? How much did your ETT improve post-op? Do you think you are now in an ideal/normal range of torsion?

Yeah, that's it.  Never heard the official medical terminology before.

100% normal now although not due to lengthening itself.  The whole leg below the gap was rotated manually by the surgeon right before nailing.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Bjoern77 on April 20, 2021, 07:14:48 PM
Gained 3 inches on tibias (LON) in 2007 at the Beijing Institute of External Skeletal Fixation Technology with Dr. Hetao Xia.


How much did it cost?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on April 20, 2021, 10:27:33 PM
$25,000 including room and board for five months at the hospital.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: nightstar on May 07, 2021, 01:11:47 AM
Do you think you would have fewer side effects if you had used today's internal technology?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 07, 2021, 02:27:19 AM
No.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Worzezterlire on May 07, 2021, 04:54:56 AM
I have a Precise 2.2 femur operation coming in 30 or so days.  I have a plan for the summer with family, I have hobbies that translate well to bedrest, and I am able to work from home and have for over a year now.  But what I’m worried about is the psychological aspect.

How did your psychology fare over the lengthening procedure?  Is there anything you did to keep stable emotionally and mentally?  I’m someone who is somewhat active so this will be a strange few months for me.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Serilium on May 15, 2021, 01:36:51 PM
Hi Medium Drink of water

You said you have knee pain while kneeling on the floor? How hard this "floor" can be? Obviously on a wooden floor it'll hurt, but- Let's say, a typical floor mat for yoga/gym that isn't too squishy or anything but still has a little bit of give. Like, this mat is firm, but definitely not as firm as a hardwood floor. but Do you still feel knee pain when kneeling on that mat?

Thanks Medium Drink of water
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 15, 2021, 08:27:09 PM
I have a Precise 2.2 femur operation coming in 30 or so days.  I have a plan for the summer with family, I have hobbies that translate well to bedrest, and I am able to work from home and have for over a year now.  But what I’m worried about is the psychological aspect.

How did your psychology fare over the lengthening procedure?  Is there anything you did to keep stable emotionally and mentally?  I’m someone who is somewhat active so this will be a strange few months for me.

My mental health was pretty good.  I advise you to keep normal hours, even if that means taking a sleeping pill every night.  Also eat at the same time every day so you get a nice routine to follow.  The thought that needs to go into planning and reacting is a bit burdensome.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on May 15, 2021, 08:33:00 PM
Hi Medium Drink of water

You said you have knee pain while kneeling on the floor? How hard this "floor" can be? Obviously on a wooden floor it'll hurt, but- Let's say, a typical floor mat for yoga/gym that isn't too squishy or anything but still has a little bit of give. Like, this mat is firm, but definitely not as firm as a hardwood floor. but Do you still feel knee pain when kneeling on that mat?

Thanks Medium Drink of water

Yeah, it varies depending on the hardness of the floor.  The 6 mm Manduka Pro mat gives me no reaction at all; if I had only ever knelt on that I wouldn't even know about this knee issue. ;D

Their 4.7 mm Prolite is thin enough that I'll start to notice a minor sensation.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: - on June 04, 2021, 09:59:04 AM
1. Where are you living?

2. What are your pre-op and post-op heights?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 04, 2021, 08:31:08 PM
1. Irrelevant.

2. 5'7 and 5'10.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: - on June 05, 2021, 12:17:12 AM
1. Irrelevant.

2. 5'7 and 5'10.

1. It's not irrelevant. I want to know the place where you really felt a huge difference between being 5'7 and 5'10.

2. Also what's your race?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Game on June 10, 2021, 06:13:06 PM

Will my life be in danger if i make 5 cm in tibia with Dr Paley?
I want to know if before you make the operation and was perfect no complication nothing, but after some years can appear complicati on? And if appear some complication after surgery are gonna to put the life in danger in future even are this complication trated?
My curent height is 1.67m and my wingspan is just 1.61 m what to do man because im so stressed and i feel bad im gonna to look very  disproportional and horible? Like T-Rex arms? Is gonna to be so bad?
Because i know its arm lenghtening to but evretying is to expensive and i cant afford 2 procedure and are not so much Information about arm lenghtening i know just again dr paley make arm lenghtening to,with precice stryde.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: TouchTheSkies on June 10, 2021, 06:30:02 PM
Will my life be in danger if i make 5 cm in tibia with Dr Paley?
I want to know if before you make the operation and was perfect no complication nothing, but after some years can appear complicati on? And if appear some complication after surgery are gonna to put the life in danger in future even are this complication trated?
My curent height is 1.67m and my wingspan is just 1.61 m what to do man because im so stressed and i feel bad im gonna to look very  disproportional and horible? Like T-Rex arms? Is gonna to be so bad?
Because i know its arm lenghtening to but evretying is to expensive and i cant afford 2 procedure and are not so much Information about arm lenghtening i know just again dr paley make arm lenghtening to,with precice stryde.
Doing the full length on femurs and tibia would be awesome but I’d say lengthening the tibia and observe bit by bit as you lengthen. Imo find the best balance between normal proportions and satisfaction with height gain as you’re already -6 .

5cm tibia is relatively safe and obviously doing Paley will give u the best chances of success. People say it’s risky but not too risky if u do it with someone like Paley.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on June 10, 2021, 07:50:19 PM
Will my life be in danger if i make 5 cm in tibia with Dr Paley?
I want to know if before you make the operation and was perfect no complication nothing, but after some years can appear complicati on? And if appear some complication after surgery are gonna to put the life in danger in future even are this complication trated?
My curent height is 1.67m and my wingspan is just 1.61 m what to do man because im so stressed and i feel bad im gonna to look very  disproportional and horible? Like T-Rex arms? Is gonna to be so bad?
Because i know its arm lenghtening to but evretying is to expensive and i cant afford 2 procedure and are not so much Information about arm lenghtening i know just again dr paley make arm lenghtening to,with precice stryde.

Sorry, I don't know the answers to any of your questions.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Growing on July 20, 2021, 05:01:01 PM
I noticed you said you never went back to 100%. I noticed your procedure was 14 years ago. Do you think with technologies now and know what we know it will be more common now to get back to 100% vs when you received the procedure?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 21, 2021, 02:31:42 PM
I noticed you said you never went back to 100%. I noticed your procedure was 14 years ago. Do you think with technologies now and know what we know it will be more common now to get back to 100% vs when you received the procedure?

No.  I don't see anything newly available that would have an effect on the final result years down the road.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Thehighest on July 21, 2021, 08:56:00 PM
Do you recommend me LON or pure external?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on July 22, 2021, 02:35:08 AM
Pure external.  That was my original choice but it didn't work out.  The less invasiveness the better.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Thehighest on August 23, 2021, 01:07:06 AM
Which surgery takes longer pure internal femurs or LON tibial? And which is  riskier in terms of fat embolysm?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 23, 2021, 03:48:22 AM
Which surgery takes longer pure internal femurs or LON tibial? And which is  riskier in terms of fat embolysm?

LON tibia takes longer because the surgeon has to install both an internal nail and two frames/rails in one surgery.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sorcerer on August 23, 2021, 08:13:54 PM
How about pains included in the procedure?

Is it true if painkillers clinics offer are adequate and effective enough,most ppl can withstand pains from surgeries until the end?

I dunno if I can overcome pains
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 23, 2021, 10:03:35 PM
During the surgery the anesthesia will assure that there's no pain.  After that, there will be pain no matter what while you lengthen.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Thehighest on August 24, 2021, 02:35:09 PM
Can the nail used in LON brake? I mean after the removal of the fixator?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 24, 2021, 05:27:48 PM
Can the nail used in LON brake? I mean after the removal of the fixator?

Probably not since it's made of steel.  But sometimes screws can come loose.  That didn't happen to me but it did to some other people, usually the ones with slow bone growth.  Your bones bond with the titanium screws, but if bone growth is slow that process doesn't happen as quickly, giving more chances for the screws to loosen.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: AimHigh on August 25, 2021, 12:13:51 AM
A Solid IM Nail wont break or bend, however the screws into the bone are the weakest points. I would feel comfortable walking on a recently installed solid nail, but I would not attempt vigorous weight bearing activity/sport/running until the bone gap is significantly healed as per the radiologists/surgeon recommendations.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sorcerer on August 25, 2021, 04:33:10 AM
During the surgery the anesthesia will assure that there's no pain.  After that, there will be pain no matter what while you lengthen.
Thx for informations although I think mental tortures the reality is imposing on me are enough for me to fight against pains in the procedure
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: GrowANut on August 31, 2021, 07:25:31 AM
Is your gait back to normal? Are you able to do heavy weightlifting like squats and deadlifts? Thank you
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on August 31, 2021, 03:46:24 PM
It's normal but not the same as before.  Lengthening only one segment by a lot will change it but I don't walk funny.  I can do heavy lifting leg exercises.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Exxon on September 01, 2021, 07:54:44 AM
What's your 100m sprint time now? What was it before (If you had any record of it)
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 02, 2021, 01:43:26 AM
I don't know.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Sorcerer on September 02, 2021, 05:48:12 AM
I heard Dr.Xia fabricated his certificates and he was described as a money butcher.
There was a QQ group set up on purpose for revealing his fake certificates and he having graduating from a bogus orthopaedic college.
I dunno if that's true cuz I won't opt for him to do surgeries.
But glad to see you didn't get worse surgeric consequences.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 02, 2021, 01:58:40 PM
He didn't do my surgery so he might have been a faker, but the younger surgeons he hired to work at his clinic like Li Gang and Peng Aiming knew what they were doing.  Lots of foreign patients I was able to communicate with after leaving; lots of successful cases.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on September 03, 2021, 12:32:13 PM
Let's say you do LL with Giotikas both internal femur and tibias precise 2.2 within 8 months or w/e the time frame is (what would be the realistic time frame for that?)

And you stick to just 6 cm on tibias and 5 cm on femur because you are afraid of complications. I heard doing LL on femurs and tibias back to back is more dangerous.

1. Is it realistic to do another 2 cm on femurs later like 10 years later using the same nail?

2. Is this a bad idea? Ex: bad idea to leave the nail in that long?

3. What are some better alternatives? 

4. How much would it cost to have a local doctor break both of your femurs later to do the last 2 cm on femurs and how long would it take?

5. Bad idea to have tibia nails removed early on but keep the femur ones in for like 10 years?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 03, 2021, 06:10:53 PM
Let's say you do LL with Giotikas both internal femur and tibias precise 2.2 within 8 months or w/e the time frame is (what would be the realistic time frame for that?)

You mean simultaneously?  Lengthening 6 bones (femurs, tibias, fibulas) all at the same time?  Yikes! :o

Quote
And you stick to just 6 cm on tibias and 5 cm on femur because you are afraid of complications. I heard doing LL on femurs and tibias back to back is more dangerous.

How is that more dangerous than doing them all at once?

Quote
1. Is it realistic to do another 2 cm on femurs later like 10 years later using the same nail?

2. Is this a bad idea? Ex: bad idea to leave the nail in that long?[/quote]

I don't know.  Precise was after my time.  Most doctors used to say leave the nail in unless it was causing a problem, but that guidance may have changed with the new technology.

Quote
3. What are some better alternatives?

Lengthen what you want on tibias, let your body heal, then lengthen what you want on femurs.

Quote
4. How much would it cost to have a local doctor break both of your femurs later to do the last 2 cm on femurs and how long would it take?

Prices will vary widely.

Quote
5. Bad idea to have tibia nails removed early on but keep the femur ones in for like 10 years?

I don't know.  My fixed 100% stainless steel nails stayed in for a little over a year.  I noticed them while they were in there.  Bones normally flex and yield slightly, but the nails don't.  I noticed some feelings of mild pressure when doing things like climbing a ladder with the nails in, which went away when they got taken out.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on September 04, 2021, 07:22:01 PM
Right so right now I am hoping to do like 6 cm on tibia w/ Giotikas, wait 3 weeks still in Greece, then do some amount of femur with Giotikas while still in Greece. Maybe like 4 cm on femur. And then maybe like 10 years later, rebreak the femur and do the last 3 cm or something. I'm afraid of doing 6 cm on tibia and then 7 cm on femur, I heard back to back LL is dangerous so I'm trying to figure out how to mitigate the risk

I am not sure the best split and option.

What would you do? My budget is like 155k

Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: boklecrt on September 05, 2021, 05:34:45 AM
1. What is the actual reality when it comes to the legendary "knee pain down the road" from intermedullary nails inside the tibia that are inserted under the knee? And which are removed after the 12-15 months after the start of the consolidation period?

2. What is the truth about bone marrow removal from tibia in the case of the insertion of nails. Is this going to regenerate IN FULL after the nail removal?

3. Are doctors saying that you can leave the nails inside your tibia permanently talking NONSENSE?

thank you VETERANS!
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 05, 2021, 01:37:47 PM
1. What is the actual reality when it comes to the legendary "knee pain down the road" from intermedullary nails inside the tibia that are inserted under the knee? And which are removed after the 12-15 months after the start of the consolidation period?

2. What is the truth about bone marrow removal from tibia in the case of the insertion of nails. Is this going to regenerate IN FULL after the nail removal?

3. Are doctors saying that you can leave the nails inside your tibia permanently talking NONSENSE?

thank you VETERANS!

I believe that my knee issues are due to inflammation in my patellar ligaments, caused by a bad reaction to having a slit made in my patellar ligaments to insert and remove the nails.

Adults have yellow bone marrow in their tibias, which doesn't provide the blood-related biological functions you learn about in health class.  That's red marrow which is everywhere in a child's body but gradually disappears from the large/long bones like tibias and femurs as a human grows up.  I don't know if the yellow marrow regenerates or is replaced with some kind of interstitial fluid.

Very few people who graduate from medical school and are licensed to practice medicine in countries that have high standards talk nonsense.  There may be some disagreement about it but it's not a universal right/wrong thing.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on September 27, 2021, 10:30:36 PM
If you do internal femurs 7cm, how much fat/weight do you typically lose on your face during the process ?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: AimHigh on September 28, 2021, 02:27:10 AM
I am slim and a hard gainer naturally,  i lost around 6 kg with my LFem 8cm precice CLL - was didnt seem to matter how much I ate. - took me a year to gain back the weight. I will try mk 677 (muscle sparing) for my next RFemur  2.7 cm LLD LL.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 28, 2021, 02:38:26 AM
If you do internal femurs 7cm, how much fat/weight do you typically lose on your face during the process ?

Weight loss from LL is different for everyone.  One guy I knew gained weight.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on September 29, 2021, 10:46:49 PM
I'm wondering- is it a  ty idea to do buccal fat (cheek fat) removal or neck liposuction during LL? For safety, overall comfort reasons, or too much combined loss of fat from LL and the surgery?

Should be cheaper in Athens, Greece than USA though so it seems like a good chance to take advantage of being in a foreign country
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on September 30, 2021, 06:03:06 AM
Don't get liposuction.  The fat comes back as soon as you eat something.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on October 01, 2021, 09:03:29 PM
"Don't get liposuction.  The fat comes back as soon as you eat something."

ty for the warning!!!! What was your experience like getting liposuction?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 01, 2021, 11:55:01 PM
Not a big deal.  I only had a minor procedure.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Thehighest on October 06, 2021, 06:05:31 PM
Would you recommend external skeletal fixation instituto or is too expensive now?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 06, 2021, 08:04:48 PM
The only thing I know about it now is that it's completely different from when I went there.  New staff, new facilities, just the same old man who owns it.

My recommendation is to stay away from anything to do with China right now, not just LL.  Hu Jintao was in charge in 2007.  The country has become a much worse place since Xi Jinping took over.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on October 07, 2021, 02:25:44 AM
1. When explaining to schools/employers what you were doing for two 3 months chunks of time, what might be some good things to say back?

2. For government jobs in the USA, do you need to reveal that time was for LL? Or can you be vague about it/avoid saying it?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 07, 2021, 02:37:58 AM
1. When explaining to schools/employers what you were doing for two 3 months chunks of time, what might be some good things to say back?

2. For government jobs in the USA, do you need to reveal that time was for LL? Or can you be vague about it/avoid saying it?

1. Why two three month chunks of time?

2. I don't know.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on October 07, 2021, 07:26:01 AM
"1. Why two three month chunks of time?"

Oh. I was somehow under the impression that internal femurs takes 3 months in Athens with Giotikas

And 6 cm internal tibia with Parihar would take a similar amount of time to stay in Mumbai of 3 months

What are the actual correct time frames of when you need to stay in the same city as the doctor?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 07, 2021, 01:26:40 PM
Say you were teaching English in those countries.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on October 15, 2021, 06:58:55 AM
ty!!!!

During LL, what specific observations / information should you write in your diary throughout LL that will be helpful to the doctor/physical therapy people to figure out what mistakes you are making in stretching/day to day movements that are hurting your recovery?

Or bad idea to disclose this info to them b/c they could use it to blame you for somethign that bad happens?
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 15, 2021, 08:35:42 PM
I don't know.  This is my entire interaction with physical therapists: I went to one one time after LL (about a year later) because my right ankle was remaining tight even though everything else was improving.  She showed me a stretch that would target that specific tendon and I did it at home for a few months, and that was the end of it.

I think you should tell medical professionals everything.  The more they know, the better they can help you.  I can't imagine that they would blame you for anything bad that happens: everything bad already happened and it's their job to help you recover from it.  If they know you have a certain problem and then they do something that's contraindicated for people with that problem, it's their fault, not yours.  If anything, hiding information will mean you're to blame (if blame is assigned at all, which it probalby won't be).
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: SpeedDialer on October 19, 2021, 07:04:30 PM
Are there risks for leaving in the internal nails for too long? I heard one should wait at least 1.5-2 years before taking them out. What if you take them out at like 5 years though? 10 years? 3 years? etc
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 19, 2021, 07:20:05 PM
I'm not aware of any serious risks.  Some doctors prefer to leave them in, more commonly in the non-cosmetic orthopedic community than in CLL.  It is a major surgery to open up a patient and take them out, and the "first, do no harm" part of the Hippocratic oath is often applied to that situation if the nails aren't causing much if any problems.  It also may have something to do with insurance: why would the insurance company pay for a major surgery when the patient doesn't really need it?  That money could go to fixing a baby's cleft palate or buying someone's anti-seizure medication.

I noticed them when they were in.  It seemed like the bone wanted to bend a bit in certain situations but the nails wouldn't let them.  One time when I really noticed this was when I was climbing a ladder.

I think the best way to approach it is to wait and see if they bother you or not, and if so, how much.  Consider the cost/benefits when you can actually know what they will be.
Title: Re: Have questions for a long-term LL veteran? Ask them here!
Post by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 19, 2021, 07:29:00 PM
This topic continues here:

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=68335.0