Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: nightstar on May 07, 2021, 07:20:00 AM
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Dr. Paley doesn't do more than 13 cm (5.1 inches), but I firmly wish to achieve 15.25 cm (6 inches). Most doctors in the sticky seem to have a similar range. Which doctors are open to the kind of increase I'm looking for?
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Dr. Mahboubian normal standard will let you push tibia to 6.5cm instead of 5cm like paley
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Dr. Donghoon Lee has different lenghening programs, one of them goes up to 16cm
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You can get 16cm with Paley
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You can get 16cm with Paley
True, quadrilateral twice
(4cm+4cm)x2 same as Lee
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He Tao Xia. Several others too as long as you do external.
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True, quadrilateral twice
(4cm+4cm)x2 same as Lee
This is with two operations per segment? Wouldn't that have worse side effects than one large operation?
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This is with two operations per segment? Wouldn't that have worse side effects than one large operation?
Quadri is usually fking the body quite a lot but since you only do 4+4 it's safe in terms of lengthening amount (you have 3 surgeries, excluding rod removal)
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Quadri is usually fking the body quite a lot but since you only do 4+4 it's safe in terms of lengthening amount (you have 3 surgeries, excluding rod removal)
Yes, 4+4 is okay. There are different ways to do quad, 3 weeks apart (they say it's simultaneous) or 1y-2y apart. I know you can du simultaneous 4+4 3 weeks apart, so you break the femur than 3 weeks later you break tibia and lentgh both 4cm, than 1y later you rebreak both (3 weeks apart) and get 16 total, and yes, you need to remove the rod. So it would be about 5 surgeries. But with the same nail, cause stryde can lentgh up to 8cm maximum (device limit).
I know it sounds confusing, and my english is not the best with CLL topic. So let me show you this:
- Dr Paley: https://limblengthening.org/lengthening-strategies/
- Dr. Donghoon Lee:
"1. Femur lengthening – max. 8cm (3.15in.); lengthening period of 8cm is about 12 weeks
2. Tibia lengthening – max. 6cm (2.36in.); lengthening period of 6cm is about 12 weeks
3. Femur lengthening of 4cm then 6 months after another 4cm lengthening (lengthening period of 4cm (1.57in.) is about 6 weeks)
4. Tibia lengthening of 4cm then 6 months after another 4cm lengthening (lengthening period of 4cm (1.57in.) is about 8 weeks)
5. Femur or Tibia lengthening one leg at a time and lengthening the other leg (max. lengthening length and lengthening period is same as #1 and #2)
6. Simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening (max 8cm (3.15in.) in total; lengthening period of tibia and femur each lengthening up to 4cm is about 12 weeks in total)
7. Tibia lengthening up to 6cm then 1 year after femur lengthening up to 8cm (max 14cm (5.51in.); up to 6cm tibia lengthening and up to 8cm femur lengthening each takes about 12 weeks)
8. Simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening then at least 1 year after additional simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening (max 16cm (6.29in.); lengthening period of tibia and femur each lengthening up to 4cm is about 12 weeks)
*Because of the limitation in lengthening of soft tissue such as muscles and nerves, the maximum lengthening length is restricted to not go overboard. Therefore, excessive lengthening is not recommended for the safe recovery.
*Generally, the first two plans are mostly done. Either lengthening bilateral femur or bilateral tibia.
*If you are looking for the fast recovery, plan #3 and #4 are recommended.
*Another plan for the fast recovery is #5. Undergoing leg lengthening surgery one leg at a time and return back to everyday life using crutches.
*Plan #6 is to lengthen tibia and femur simultaneously. Although the maximum lengthening length is similar to the maximum length of femur lengthening but as lengthening about 4cm on each segment (tibia and femur) gives less burden to the body and you can attain an ideal nice body proportion. Furthermore, you can return back to everyday life faster than lengthening one segment of your leg to the maximum lengthening length.
*Plan #7 and #8 are for the people who wants to gain the maximum length
*Plan #7 is which you undergo either plan #1 or #2 initially then one year after undergoing lengthening surgery on the remaining segment.
*Plan #8 is which you undergo plan #6 twice within at least one year apart from the initial surgery. Lengthening for the second time, change in intramedullary lengthening nail is unnecessary as lengthening can be done by re-osteotomy while the intramedullary nails are remained.
*Most importantly, please be aware that above plans with the maximum lengthening length and the lengthening period are based on the average data. It varies by each person as everyone’s condition and rehabilitation is all different."
From my reasearches: Doing 4+4 is better than doing just 8 at one segment, beacause of proportions and complications. And since you want the maximum ammount, you can reach 16 only doing simulteneous quadrilateral twice. You don't pay that much for the second quadrilateral with palley, because the most expensive thing is the device. So one quad would be around 200K dollars, and if you do it twice he only charges 80K more, beacause the device is the same. Just don't forget that stryde has been recalled, so we don't know what to expect, but i highly recommend doing this with stryde, cause it will takes 2 whole years of surgery, so stryde is better, in view of the fact that stryde has a weight bearing tolerrence.
Leghening 8+8 at once is suicide. The only other option would be lenghening femur up to 8 and tibia up to 5-6 (or tibia first, depends at the doctor, Dr. Lee says that tibia takes more time to rehab, so he prefers doing it before, but Dr. Plaey prefer femur first, I think), 1 years apart, but only a total of 13-14, not 15-16.
Said that, it's not a rule, you should email your doctor and ask about all the possible ways and each coplications, risks and costs. Every case is a case. Hope that helped you.
(The information about Dr. Lee came by his email that his secretary sent me, with prices and etc.)
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Yes, 4+4 is okay. There are different ways to do quad, 3 weeks apart (they say it's simultaneous) or 1y-2y apart. I know you can du simultaneous 4+4 3 weeks apart, so you break the femur than 3 weeks later you break tibia and lentgh both 4cm, than 1y later you rebreak both (3 weeks apart) and get 16 total, and yes, you need to remove the rod. So it would be about 5 surgeries. But with the same nail, cause stryde can lentgh up to 8cm maximum (device limit).
I know it sounds confusing, and my english is not the best with CLL topic. So let me show you this:
- Dr Paley: https://limblengthening.org/lengthening-strategies/
- Dr. Donghoon Lee:
"1. Femur lengthening – max. 8cm (3.15in.); lengthening period of 8cm is about 12 weeks
2. Tibia lengthening – max. 6cm (2.36in.); lengthening period of 6cm is about 12 weeks
3. Femur lengthening of 4cm then 6 months after another 4cm lengthening (lengthening period of 4cm (1.57in.) is about 6 weeks)
4. Tibia lengthening of 4cm then 6 months after another 4cm lengthening (lengthening period of 4cm (1.57in.) is about 8 weeks)
5. Femur or Tibia lengthening one leg at a time and lengthening the other leg (max. lengthening length and lengthening period is same as #1 and #2)
6. Simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening (max 8cm (3.15in.) in total; lengthening period of tibia and femur each lengthening up to 4cm is about 12 weeks in total)
7. Tibia lengthening up to 6cm then 1 year after femur lengthening up to 8cm (max 14cm (5.51in.); up to 6cm tibia lengthening and up to 8cm femur lengthening each takes about 12 weeks)
8. Simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening then at least 1 year after additional simultaneous tibia and femur lengthening (max 16cm (6.29in.); lengthening period of tibia and femur each lengthening up to 4cm is about 12 weeks)
*Because of the limitation in lengthening of soft tissue such as muscles and nerves, the maximum lengthening length is restricted to not go overboard. Therefore, excessive lengthening is not recommended for the safe recovery.
*Generally, the first two plans are mostly done. Either lengthening bilateral femur or bilateral tibia.
*If you are looking for the fast recovery, plan #3 and #4 are recommended.
*Another plan for the fast recovery is #5. Undergoing leg lengthening surgery one leg at a time and return back to everyday life using crutches.
*Plan #6 is to lengthen tibia and femur simultaneously. Although the maximum lengthening length is similar to the maximum length of femur lengthening but as lengthening about 4cm on each segment (tibia and femur) gives less burden to the body and you can attain an ideal nice body proportion. Furthermore, you can return back to everyday life faster than lengthening one segment of your leg to the maximum lengthening length.
*Plan #7 and #8 are for the people who wants to gain the maximum length
*Plan #7 is which you undergo either plan #1 or #2 initially then one year after undergoing lengthening surgery on the remaining segment.
*Plan #8 is which you undergo plan #6 twice within at least one year apart from the initial surgery. Lengthening for the second time, change in intramedullary lengthening nail is unnecessary as lengthening can be done by re-osteotomy while the intramedullary nails are remained.
*Most importantly, please be aware that above plans with the maximum lengthening length and the lengthening period are based on the average data. It varies by each person as everyone’s condition and rehabilitation is all different."
From my reasearches: Doing 4+4 is better than doing just 8 at one segment, beacause of proportions and complications. And since you want the maximum ammount, you can reach 16 only doing simulteneous quadrilateral twice. You don't pay that much for the second quadrilateral with palley, because the most expensive thing is the device. So one quad would be around 200K dollars, and if you do it twice he only charges 80K more, beacause the device is the same. Just don't forget that stryde has been recalled, so we don't know what to expect, but i highly recommend doing this with stryde, cause it will takes 2 whole years of surgery, so stryde is better, in view of the fact that stryde has a weight bearing tolerrence.
Leghening 8+8 at once is suicide. The only other option would be lenghening femur up to 8 and tibia up to 5-6 (or tibia first, depends at the doctor, Dr. Lee says that tibia takes more time to rehab, so he prefers doing it before, but Dr. Plaey prefer femur first, I think), 1 years apart, but only a total of 13-14, not 15-16.
Said that, it's not a rule, you should email your doctor and ask about all the possible ways and each coplications, risks and costs. Every case is a case. Hope that helped you.
(The information about Dr. Lee came by his email that his secretary sent me, with prices and etc.)
You have to keep in mind though that despite the fact that you are lengthening the soft tissue a lot with simultaneous lengthening (nerves over a mm/day) you are as well doing 2 major surgeries in a short time which is very taxing both mentally as well as physically. Plus you are paying a lot more. Almost 300k of which you have to pay 200k in advance (with Paley). So the only two upsides to quadri options is you lengthen less at once and it‘s better for proportions.
Also, if you chose to do quadri now you are stuck with precise. Once you return for rebreaking you will have to do it with precice while ppl around you will be getting stryde.
So what are my recommendations: don‘t do quadri, especially now. If you want to go with nuvasive‘s internals start with femurs. Don‘t start with tibias ever, unless you choose externals. 8cm in femurs is a goal almost everyone should be able to achieve. Then after a year you can choose internal tibias when stryde is back with which you can try to gain around 6cm. So int total around 14cm which is quite a lot. And if you want to max out both nails I am sure you can ask your doctor to rebreak later (for example lets say you had to stop at 7cm femurs and 5cm tibia. It won‘t be too much of a problem to rebreaken some time later to get to 8 in both leading to 16cm. You will have the same amount of surgeries as with quadri but you don‘t endure the insane stretching of soft tissue and two surgeries (with a combined duration of almost 10 hours btw) within 2-3 weeks.
I am very sure though that most people who want this stop either after femur surgery or they are satisfied with 14cm and don‘t want to do this all over again for 2 more cm. But who knows, some are very dedicated.
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So what are my recommendations: don‘t do quadri, especially now. If you want to go with nuvasive‘s internals start with femurs. Don‘t start with tibias ever, unless you choose externals.
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@RLS
Can you elaborate more as to why you recommend femurs as the first choice rather then Tibias?
Thanks
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You shouldn't do quadrilateral now because there is no stryde nail which has weight bearing. As for recommending femur over tibias. Pros of doing femurs first is the max of 8cm is easier and more attainable on femurs than trying to get the max length for tibias.
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So what are my recommendations: don‘t do quadri, especially now. If you want to go with nuvasive‘s internals start with femurs. Don‘t start with tibias ever, unless you choose externals.
@RLS
Can you elaborate more as to why you recommend femurs as the first choice rather then Tibias?
Thanks
I explained it in my post. You do this to become taller, not because of proportions, so why do tibias first. It's harder, a bit more expensive, recovery takes longer, you gain less height, looks bad if you still want to wear shoes that are a bit higher. Plus the "risk of knee pain" element is there too. No reason to start with tibias unless you do externals because externals on femur is a very, very bad idea.
Quadri is very draining... physically, mentally, financially. The only good thing is your proportions will not be off (at least until you would have done the other segment with bilateral anyways) which tbh is a joke, especially at small lengthening amounts like <8cm. Honestly, proportions are way too overrated here. You wanna have mathematically optimal proportions? Don't do LL. You wanna grow taller? Do LL. Will anyone irl notice? No. Does it matter? No.
I am very certain that once you do LL the least important thing should be "proportions". What's important is will you come back to life (recover)? And will I reach my goal? That's it.
ps You can always cover long femurs/short tibias with lift boots but not the other way around
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Is 8 cm a hard or soft maximum for femurs? With a goal of 15-16 cm total, I was imagining something like 6 cm tibia and 10 cm femur (I'm trying to get a picture of the landscape before doing consultations).
If 8 cm is the hard max for femur, are quadrilaterals the only option for reaching that 15-16 cm goal?
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Exactly. After tibial lengthening, if you ever use lifts/high heel shoes = you are fked.
With the lengthening of femur, you can always put 1-2 cm lifts on your shoes and NOTHING will look even "slightly" obvious.
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Is 8 cm a hard or soft maximum for femurs? With a goal of 15-16 cm total, I was imagining something like 6 cm tibia and 10 cm femur (I'm trying to get a picture of the landscape before doing consultations).
If 8 cm is the hard max for femur, are quadrilaterals the only option for reaching that 15-16 cm goal?
With Stryde and precise, yes 8 it is (because the nail can‘t extend further). If you go with externals or guichet nail or Betzbone you may get 9 or 10 cm but it‘s rather risky (some did it successfully though).
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U don't need to do quadrilaterals for 16cm Paley. You do 8cm Femurs. Come back after a year do 5cm tibia. Come back after a year and rebreak tibia for 3cm. No quadrilaterals. This is much much more tolerable than quadrilaterals
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U don't need to do quadrilaterals for 16cm Paley. You do 8cm Femurs. Come back after a year do 5cm tibia. Come back after a year and rebreak tibia for 3cm. No quadrilaterals. This is much much more tolerable than quadrilaterals
This is a good option.
But you and your doctor are going to decide the best option for you.
It also depends at your money, if you want to save the maximum as possible, quad is cheaper beacause you will pay only 1 time for flights, accomodations, pt, medicines, etc. But if you don't have that huge amount ready, do it 1-2y apart. And if money and time is not and issue, don't do quad, do what Sirilium said.
In my case, I will do with stryde (when it comes back) quad (once) beacause of accomodation and flight prices.
I think the choice of device, doctor and method is really personal and different for everyone.
Keep searching and asking until you feel comfortable with a plan
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And if money and time is not and issue, don't do quad, do what Sirilium said.
And if you don't want to go through torture
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I'm trying to turn myself into masoquist, so that I can do quad peacefully
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Quadri can't be healthy.. And having bad proportions for a year doesn't matter much. You can wear shoe lifts during that time. Better to stretch it out over 3 bilateral surgeries.
I'll also look into the options for doing it in just two surgeries. Betz and Guichet look credible although the broken English on Guichet's website isn't confidence-inspiring.
Certainly don't want to use externals.
Also don't want to use a non load bearing method like Precice. Being wheelchair bound would be gruesome.
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@RLS ok thanks for that.
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Anyone who thinks they can handle quadrilaterals 3weeks apart is an idiot and think LL is a game. One LL is already gruesome enough, two at the same time is being silly.
Stryde will probably be back next year @nightstar. If you have to do it then Betz but Betzbone racheting is painful and you must learn the method to relax the muscle while twisting your leg
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Anyone who thinks they can handle quadrilaterals 3weeks apart is an idiot and think LL is a game. One LL is already gruesome enough, two at the same time is being silly.
Stryde will probably be back next year @nightstar. If you have to do it then Betz but Betzbone racheting is painful and you must learn the method to relax the muscle while twisting your leg
Completely agree the earliest I would do the other surgery is when I’m done distracting from the first one
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That's a point. But it gives less burden to the body, furthermore, you can return back to everyday life faster than lengthening one segment of your leg to the maximum lengthening length.
But it's just my opinion trhough what I've searched and what I've talked with doctors. We're here to discuss and I understand that I can be totally wrong. We're all here to know the best option
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Found out Betz is the subject of lawsuits so that is off the table.
That's a point. But it gives less burden to the body, furthermore, you can return back to everyday life faster than lengthening one segment of your leg to the maximum lengthening length.
Do you have a reason to think doing four segments at once is less burden to the body than two at a time?
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It also seems Guichet has a poor track record, example: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=64405.0
Has Paley ever had a death?
In any case, it looks like I'm down to only US surgeons. Which means the only options for the 6 inch range are 2 quadrilateral procedures or 3 bilateral procedures. That's unfortunate. I was hoping 2 bilaterals would be enough.
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Found out Betz is the subject of lawsuits so that is off the table.
Do you have a reason to think doing four segments at once is less burden to the body than two at a time?
Doing four segments at once is a lot more burden. That is for sure.
Also, can you provide any source for the lawsuit? If you refer to anold forum user who just claims that there is a lawsuit since many many years... I would suggest you don't immediately believe that without any proof in that regards. (If you can provide a proof it'd be nice if you share because I'd be interested in that too, as for now I am skeptical).
It also seems Guichet has a poor track record, example: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=64405.0
Has Paley ever had a death?
In any case, it looks like I'm down to only US surgeons. Which means the only options for the 6 inch range are 2 quadrilateral procedures or 3 bilateral procedures. That's unfortunate. I was hoping 2 bilaterals would be enough.
Paley has had bad cases too, even an unsuccessfull lawsuit if I remember correctly lol. Most of them however seem to be a product of just LL risks instead of questionable actions from the Doctor, like Guichet for example has shown very bizarre reactions when facing Unicorn's problems which for sure existed.
However, I wouldn't make it up to one post you linked as this is a big selection bias, I am sure Guichet had many successfull cases too but generally, the way he treated Unicorn, for me at least is a big BIG red flag.
The difference between "2 quadrilateral and 3 bilateral procedures" surgery wise is the same: 3 surgeries, 4 if you include nail removal.
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Do you have a reason to think doing four segments at once is less burden to the body than two at a time?
Doctor said that 4cm both is less burden than 8cm in one segment, cause each soft tissue like muscles will be less streached. You will be streaching more soft tissue but only 4cm, with one segment you will streatch 8cm.
But if you do 4cm tibia than 4cm femur another year, it's way better than four segments at a time, for sure.
I think I didn't wrote that clear before, does it makes sense now?
(I'm not comparing 4cm tibia and 4cm femur at once to 4cm tibia and 4cm femur 1-2y apart, I was comapring 4cm tibia and 4cm femur once to 8cm at one segment.
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Do you have a reason to think doing four segments at once is less burden to the body than two at a time?
I didn't make myself clear before. I was comparing what I said above, of course that two at a time is better than 4 at a time, if it's the same amount. But 8cm at once in one segment is more burden than 4cm in two segments.
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The difference between "2 quadrilateral and 3 bilateral procedures" surgery wise is the same: 3 surgeries, 4 if you include nail removal.
Try emailing them and asking if you can do bilateral femur 8cm and later bilateral tibia 7-8cm. But don't forget to ask the risks and possible complications. And also the difference to quadrilateral twice and 3 bilateral
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Doctor said that 4cm both is less burden than 8cm in one segment, cause each soft tissue like muscles will be less streached. You will be streaching more soft tissue but only 4cm, with one segment you will streatch 8cm.
But if you do 4cm tibia than 4cm femur another year, it's way better than four segments at a time, for sure.
I think I didn't wrote that clear before, does it makes sense now?
(I'm not comparing 4cm tibia and 4cm femur at once to 4cm tibia and 4cm femur 1-2y apart, I was comapring 4cm tibia and 4cm femur once to 8cm at one segment.
But you have 2 major surgeries within a very close time and stretch the soft tissue more AT ONCE. It's not like your tibia soft tissue is totally disconnected from your femur soft tissue. Plus you have 6 broken bones at once.
IMO for 8cm only, do femurs only. 8cm femurs is an achievable goal for healthy adults. No need to do quadri for that it's a bad idea. 8cm longer femurs won't even screw proportions up and will safe you a lot of sufferage and money.
And also, I am not OP you don't have to recommend me anything (Thank you regardless). I won't do quadri for sure since it's too much of a burden and looking at diaries of quadri patients they seem to have a collectively harder time (by a lot!).
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But you have 2 major surgeries within a very close time and stretch the soft tissue more AT ONCE. It's not like your tibia soft tissue is totally disconnected from your femur soft tissue. Plus you have 6 broken bones at once.
IMO for 8cm only, do femurs only. 8cm femurs is an achievable goal for healthy adults. No need to do quadri for that it's a bad idea. 8cm longer femurs won't even screw proportions up and will safe you a lot of sufferage and money.
Yeah, you're right... You will have triple times bones to heal, and more pain in more parts of the body. That makes sense. But I'm going to email a doctor to ask why quadrilateral is an option.
Yeah, 8cm is not even 20% of the femur lentgh I think. But what about the tibia/femur ratio?
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Yeah, you're right... You will have triple times bones to heal, and more pain in more parts of the body. That makes sense. But I'm going to email a doctor to ask why quadrilateral is an option.
Yeah, 8cm is not even 20% of the femur lentgh I think. But what about the tibia/femur ratio?
I was thinking similar to you when I started looking into LL and all but after doing a lot of research I will decide to do bilateral femurs first since quadrilateral (with a 2-4 week pause between the two surgeries) seems to be way tougher than I anticipated (read diaries of quadri patients as a reference for that claim) and it's more expensive by a lot. I will much rather want to only lengthen femur as much as it's possible for my body, then see how I feel, if I want more I'll go with tibia lengthening.
If I would really only had quadri as a choice (bc of whatever reason) I would wait for stryde.
Don't worry about the femur/tibia ratio. While it is the most significant proportion thing (next to arm length which I am fortunately rather good with) you can compensate it easily. Lengthening femurs by 8cm is fine, you will have a slightly shorter tibia, no one will notice it (just look at successfull femur only LL patients). And even if you feel off, you can just wear lifts and bam you are back to normal knee height for your ratio/proportion. This is the reason why you should go femurs first, if you go tibia first you can't do that plus worse recovery and less height gain (in the end we all want as much height gain as possible let's be real).
And in the long run you can always do tibias later.
And about arthritis problems: if your axis stays stable it shouldn't matter too much, as far as I was told at least (ask your doctor about this though).
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I was thinking similar to you when I start(...)
Well, firstly, thank you for writing it all down. I really appreciate it!
I will read it, I'm reading the barcelona one now (He seems to be having a hard recover at walking). Yes, the way you explained seems to be tougher, it's better to do what you said, get femur at max and wait.
Yeah, I think that too. But I will only do LL with stryde, cause of recovering time and time to walk normaly.
Okay, I won't, knowing the shoe lift life hack is awesome. But I do worry about the biomechanics after only femur. (I will look at those patients too for sure). I don't really care about armspan, long legs are beautiful and used at superheroes. Iwill search about doing bileteral femur first, I'm open with that option for sure. (Yeah, we want the maximum as possible with no permanent complications and weird look)
Yes, and with a different doc if you want right?
Wht do you mean with stable axis? (I will ask one later!)
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your response!
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Well, firstly, thank you for writing it all down. I really appreciate it!
I will read it, I'm reading the barcelona one now (He seems to be having a hard recover at walking). Yes, the way you explained seems to be tougher, it's better to do what you said, get femur at max and wait.
Yeah, I think that too. But I will only do LL with stryde, cause of recovering time and time to walk normaly.
Okay, I won't, knowing the shoe lift life hack is awesome. But I do worry about the biomechanics after only femur. (I will look at those patients too for sure). I don't really care about armspan, long legs are beautiful and used at superheroes. Iwill search about doing bileteral femur first, I'm open with that option for sure. (Yeah, we want the maximum as possible with no permanent complications and weird look)
Yes, and with a different doc if you want right?
Wht do you mean with stable axis? (I will ask one later!)
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your response!
You are welcome :).
Yes STRYDE is the best device but unfortunately it is not available now. All alternatives come with up and downsides (precise is not weight bearing, mechanical nails are usually more painfull, externals are uncomfortable create more scars and risk infections etc)
If you can wait until next year I think it is worth waiting!
I sincerely think proportions are overrated. Even those who do a lot of lengthening (for example look at the user @jfk - he did 2 LLs and got to 16.5cm) end up looking amazing. Safety is what matters though, yes!
I think biomechanics are not much affected tbh. Unless you are an athlete or bodybuilding doing squads etc it will not make too much of a difference. Even when it does, you will only be impaired for the year gap until you get the tibia LL. Think about it that way, people who do cross lengthening (one femur and one tibia on the other side at the same time) have a much worse odd look until they get the second surgery.. but when they do it's all fine again.
I mean the mechanical axis*. Basically the alignement of the bones and how the pressure/force is distributed on the knee. If it is screwed (with internals it rather happens on the tibia) you will get arthritis due to one side of the knee being pressured way more. If it is aligned properly, you should be fine. Some argue there could be long term risks but this is debatable. Logically, being an athlete or being obese is a much higher risk for that than just a few extra inches on your bones. At least this is my opinion (and most Doctors will say that if done properly, there really shouldn't be any long term problems).
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So wait for Stryde to come back. Start with femur 8cm. Then 2 tibia surgeries. Sounds like it will be a 3 year process, which is okay. But over 3 surgeries the repeated risk of fat embolism makes me leery.
I can't imagine having this surgery before the weight-bearing devices were invented. Sounds terrible.
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From what I read here, it looks like there's been great progress towards stem cell based growth in the last 5 years. Maybe I'll hold off on that 3rd surgery and wait for those other techniques in 10 or 20 years time. Don't want to cripple myself with 2 surgeries on the same bone.
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@nightstar
The risk isn‘t any less with quadrilateral.
Waiting for stem cell stuff is a bad idea. Stay realistic. That won‘t be a future in our lifetime. Rather do 2 lls and accept that you only got 14 instead of 16 cm. Dude it really is whatever, when you start the LL journey most people change their mind about their goal anyways..
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Waiting for stem cell stuff is a bad idea. Stay realistic. That won‘t be a future in our lifetime.
Almost certain to be possible within your lifetime. Very reasonable to guess, within 25 years. But that's a large part of our life. I certainly won't wait on it to begin. Then decisions can be made.
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Almost certain to be possible within your lifetime. Very reasonable to guess, within 25 years. But that's a large part of our life. I certainly won't wait on it to begin. Then decisions can be made.
Stem cells for new options in organ transplants? Yea possible within 25 years. Stem cells to make grown organisms grow taller? that‘s on a similar sci fi level as the alcubierre warp drive imo.
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You are welcome :).
Yes STRYDE is the best device but unfortunately it is not available now. All alternatives come with up and downsides (precise is not weight bearing, mechanical nails are usually more painfull, externals are uncomfortable create more scars and risk infections etc)
If you can wait until next year I think it is worth waiting!
I sincerely think proportions are overrated. Even those who do a lot of lengthening (for example look at the user @jfk - he did 2 LLs and got to 16.5cm) end up looking amazing. Safety is what matters though, yes!
I think biomechanics are not much affected tbh. Unless you are an athlete or bodybuilding doing squads etc it will not make too much of a difference. Even when it does, you will only be impaired for the year gap until you get the tibia LL. Think about it that way, people who do cross lengthening (one femur and one tibia on the other side at the same time) have a much worse odd look until they get the second surgery.. but when they do it's all fine again.
I mean the mechanical axis*. Basically the alignement of the bones and how the pressure/force is distributed on the knee. If it is screwed (with internals it rather happens on the tibia) you will get arthritis due to one side of the knee being pressured way more. If it is aligned properly, you should be fine. Some argue there could be long term risks but this is debatable. Logically, being an athlete or being obese is a much higher risk for that than just a few extra inches on your bones. At least this is my opinion (and most Doctors will say that if done properly, there really shouldn't be any long term problems).
True! In my case I will NEVER do with external, and I'm almost thinking to do it only with stryde or not doing it, cause stryde is a bless, weight bearing right after surgery gets a HUUUGE impact at recovery time!
Yeah, me too. long lengs don't even look bad, and arm spam not important for appearence (but important for sports). I will check him out!
Cross leghening is weird, why do they do it?? Yes, it's only for about 1-2years with a huge femur, but you can fake it until you do tibias for sure. And I don't think someone will return to a athlet state before 2-3y after the last surgery. The barcelona guy started the consolidation phase (108 days after surgery) and he's still walking weird, it will take much more time. About biomechanics, I think that Femur/tibia ratio might have a small impact, but not sure.
Ohhh gotcha!!! Yeah, I think it depends at your conditions, health, habits and the surgeon. If you don't do impact sports you're fine (my family does not like any running or etc sports, cause you get problems when you get old), so I think it woun't be a problem.
Now that you said it, I was thinking initially only 8-10max with quad once. But I'm starting to think about 8cm femur than tibia 6cm, total 14. I would like to be 6 feet tall. I'm 168, but with good posture almost 169. So 14 would be okay with bilateral after a year, right?
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@nightstar
The risk isn‘t any less with quadrilateral.
Waiting for stem cell stuff is a bad idea. Stay realistic. That won‘t be a future in our lifetime. Rather do 2 lls and accept that you only got 14 instead of 16 cm. Dude it really is whatever, when you start the LL journey most people change their mind about their goal anyways..
Yes, true. I read some diaries and also some patient stories (some from lee) that some patients wanted 10-12 and when they got 6cm they said that was okay, and some wanted only 4 and endend up with 8. I think everyone wants the maximum, including myself. But you need to be conservative and do the maximum with safety, 14cm is already HUGE, getting problems for only 2cm more to be 16cm, it's not worth. But if you can get 16 with the same safety as 14cm, go ahead.
I think CLL with stryde is almost a nobel thing. It's a huge technology, stem cells will take years. So Stryde is the thing now.
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Keep in mind, already LLS is shown to be stem cell growth. Not normal bone repair. This was the conclusion of the Stanford Medicine study. To create this reaction without breaking the bone is far away, but on the horizon. Not like Alcubiere (science fiction).
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True! In my case I will NEVER do with external, and I'm almost thinking to do it only with stryde or not doing it, cause stryde is a bless, weight bearing right after surgery gets a HUUUGE impact at recovery time!
Yeah, me too. long lengs don't even look bad, and arm spam not important for appearence (but important for sports). I will check him out!
Cross leghening is weird, why do they do it?? Yes, it's only for about 1-2years with a huge femur, but you can fake it until you do tibias for sure. And I don't think someone will return to a athlet state before 2-3y after the last surgery. The barcelona guy started the consolidation phase (108 days after surgery) and he's still walking weird, it will take much more time. About biomechanics, I think that Femur/tibia ratio might have a small impact, but not sure.
Ohhh gotcha!!! Yeah, I think it depends at your conditions, health, habits and the surgeon. If you don't do impact sports you're fine (my family does not like any running or etc sports, cause you get problems when you get old), so I think it woun't be a problem.
Now that you said it, I was thinking initially only 8-10max with quad once. But I'm starting to think about 8cm femur than tibia 6cm, total 14. I would like to be 6 feet tall. I'm 168, but with good posture almost 169. So 14 would be okay with bilateral after a year, right?
Yea me too, externals are not an option for me. Weightbearing is really important, true.
Idk too much about cross lengthening I think it's weird too.
Depending on what you wanna do in life you can get away with more or less tbh. Not being able to do any sport is not worth it but not everyone has or wants to be an athlete.
Yea 14cm in 2 LLs is fine if you are a good case.
You gotta roll the dice and pray though because with any doctor and regardless of your amount you can end up in a casket. It's the truth, there is always an unpredictable risk that when you catch it. Bingo!
You really have to be down for LL and nothing to lose in a way because it is major massive and dangerous in and of itself (obviously tripled if you go to indian butchers or so).
Yes, true. I read some diaries and also some patient stories (some from lee) that some patients wanted 10-12 and when they got 6cm they said that was okay, and some wanted only 4 and endend up with 8. I think everyone wants the maximum, including myself. But you need to be conservative and do the maximum with safety, 14cm is already HUGE, getting problems for only 2cm more to be 16cm, it's not worth. But if you can get 16 with the same safety as 14cm, go ahead.
I think CLL with stryde is almost a nobel thing. It's a huge technology, stem cells will take years. So Stryde is the thing now.
Just set a range of goals imo. In the end it will not matter if you got 13, 14, 15 or 16cm but rather that you did it.
Keep in mind, already LLS is shown to be stem cell growth. Not normal bone repair. This was the conclusion of the Stanford Medicine study. To create this reaction without breaking the bone is far away, but on the horizon. Not like Alcubiere (science fiction).
what is LLS? Do you refer to that synovial loading thing?
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what is LLS? Do you refer to that synovial loading thing?
Limb Lengthening Surgery
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Limb Lengthening Surgery
oh wow my bad lol. Had you wrote LL or LLs and I wouldn't have misread that *facepalm*.
I am not sure what you are referring to though. Probably that the callous stems from the periosteum. LL in and of itself is secondary bone repair though so nothing you can trigger without breaking the bone.
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The action of finally being able to change and take control in your life for something you once thought you were powerless for a long time- that is the most important thing people get out of LL. People want 8cm but even at 4cm they finally feel freedom and are apathetic to lengthening more, already gaining lifetimes worth of confidence and neurosis removal. This is the magic of LL, it's an amazing phenomenon. Being able to do something about something you originally thought was God's bad destiny for you.
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Yea me too, externals are not an option for me. Weightbearing is really important, true.
Idk too much about cross lengthening I think it's weird too.
Depending on what you wanna do in life you can get away with more or less tbh. Not being able to do any sport is not worth it but not everyone has or wants to be an athlete.
Yea 14cm in 2 LLs is fine if you are a good case.
You gotta roll the dice and pray though because with any doctor and regardless of your amount you can end up in a casket. It's the truth, there is always an unpredictable risk that when you catch it. Bingo!
You really have to be down for LL and nothing to lose in a way because it is major massive and dangerous in and of itself (obviously tripled if you go to indian butchers or so).
Just set a range of goals imo. In the end it will not matter if you got 13, 14, 15 or 16cm but rather that you did it.
what is LLS? Do you refer to that synovial loading thing?
Exactly, and also the amoount of scars ewww
Gonna search about it today
Yeah, I'm good without intense sports, they screw you kneew and back overtime, even with good shoes. Just going to the gym, yoga and walking is fine to me, acctually thats the most healthy life style.
Thats good :)
I agree with you! But the better the doc, the less the risk, and also the healthier and prepared you're the less risk too!
That's my case, it's LL or nothing (*funeral music*), but would never do externals or average doctor, only docs like Paley and lee.
You're clever, just do it and pput you goal, the higher you aim, the higher your shoot will be, even if you miss it.
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The action of finally being able to change and take control in your life for something you once thought you were powerless for a long time- that is the most important thing people get out of LL. People want 8cm but even at 4cm they finally feel freedom and are apathetic to lengthening more, already gaining lifetimes worth of confidence and neurosis removal. This is the magic of LL, it's an amazing phenomenon. Being able to do something about something you originally thought was God's bad destiny for you.
This is one of the best and true quotes I read here ever! *clap!**clap!**clap!**clap!**clap!*
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Just remember, doctors set limits for good reasons...so you don't lose function and range of motion.