Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Information About Limb Lengthening => Topic started by: Muse on May 20, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
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What Tall says is true. The very first thing I came to terms with was accepting/expecting this to be the most painful experience ever. If it isn't, then great, but you should be expecting it to be bad. Remember there are some who pay for the operation and quiet after a CM due to pain.
You are destroying your body and building it anew. Safety should be a concern, but pain, while a factor, will not be avoided.
Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height. But unfortunately, it is not.
I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way. This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:
"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.
Whether that be
- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."
One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.
This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...
But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.
Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.
If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.
Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.
This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.
Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.
Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.
But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.
But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."
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Dameon, that was a fantastic post. You should sticky that somewhere on the forums. Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable. When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head. You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT. Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening. Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. ::)
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Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height. But unfortunately, it is not.
I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way. This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:
"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.
Whether that be
- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."
One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.
This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...
But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.
Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.
If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.
Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.
This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.
Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.
Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.
But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.
But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."
meh...as long as i can run i be straight. Of all the videos i've seen of people they all are running at 80% speed hell i cant even do that now. So the pain and all that bullcrap is overrated. If everything goes as it should. e.g no pin infection no traumatic experience while lengthening all these things.
IF EVERYTHING GOES As IT SHOULD DURING LENGTHENING YOU ARE STRAIGHT. AND CAN MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.
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Dameon, that was a fantastic post. You should sticky that somewhere on the forums. Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable. When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head. You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT. Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening. Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. ::)
That sounds like the theory of admin of the old forum.
"There has been an ongoing debate about how much athletic ability an LL patient can expect to have after they have fully healed from their lengthening. People like to discuss recovery in percentages. The only way to prove recovery based on a percentage would be to do athletic tests on a patient in elite physical shape before their LL, and then do those same tests on them after they have healed from their lengthening. This has so far never been done in a scientific study.
I would like to posit a theory. An elite athlete can actually become faster after LL than they were before. Here is my reasoning. The average male femur bone is 48 CM long and the average male tibia is 36 CM long. Lengthening the average femur 8 CM would be a 16% increase of that bone, and lengthening the average tibia 7 CM would be a 19% increase in length of that bone. The total increase of 15 CM on both sections would be an 18% increase in total bone length of both sections and thus increase the running stride of that average male by almost 17% (taking into consideration loss from other body parts involved in the stride, namely the feet). Even if that elite level athlete lost 5% or 10% of their maximum muscle strength and capacity because of damage to the tissues from being stretched, that loss would be eclipsed by the increased length of the running stride.
A non-athlete that does LL will most likely not train themselves back to a point of recovery that is beyond where they were physically before LL, or they probably would have been an athlete before LL. But an elite athlete that knows how to train their body to its maximum potential should be able to do LL, train themselves back to a near full recovery, and still make themselves faster than they were before LL because of their increased stride length."
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html
meh...as long as i can run i be straight. Of all the videos i've seen of people they all are running at 80% speed hell i cant even do that now. So the pain and all that bullcrap is overrated. If everything goes as it should. e.g no pin infection no traumatic experience while lengthening all these things.
IF EVERYTHING GOES As IT SHOULD DURING LENGTHENING YOU ARE STRAIGHT. AND CAN MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.
Why are you not even running 80% of what you could normally do? Injury or something? Because after lengthening you might get a reduction in speed from your already reduced speed.
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I dont think if you go with a top doctor and follow their protocol, you will have serious issues. Of course there are isolated incidents and you WONT be quite as athletic as previously but you should be able to run, work out, walk. If sports were an important part of my life I don't think I'd consider LL. However unless you consider working out a sport, it isn't.
Also if you are REALLY short, even if you were to have some of the unfortunate side effects like knee pain for the rest of your life, it might be worth it. I know that my height has been somewhat mentally damaging to me at 5 8- I can't imagine the struggle of someone less than that unless they were somehow already set for life.
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Great post by Dameon here. I have:
-Altered sensation in my knees when kneeling or touching them, around the IM nail insertion sites and around the osteotomy sites
-Stiffness in my knees unless I exercise regularly
-Hypersensitivity in my knees when kneeling on a hard surface
-Worse balance than before
-A left ostoetomy scar that's thin and weak, that I have to protect from getting bumped or it'll break and bleed
-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy
I hope my posts and diary here don't whitewash the issues I've dealt with and continue to deal with as an LLer. I did it and got my 3 inches without getting crippled. Those 3 inches changed my life, but sacrifices were made. LL is a tradeoff and there are consequences I'll have to live with from now on.
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Hey MDOW,
Can you tell us more about this?
-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy
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I haven't gotten to this point in my diary, so here's a brief summary...
LL changed the way I walk. Because of this, the tibialis anterior muscle had to work harder than it was able to. I couldn't walk very far without getting tired because walking became a serious workout for that specific muscle. Pressure would build up because there was too much blood flowing into it.
The solution? Cut a hole in the outer cover of the muscle so blood can flow out when the pressure gets too high. The surgery was successful, so it ended up not being a serious complication of my LL in the long run.
What caused the problem? I don't know for sure. It could be that I lengthened too much, or it could be because they straightened my feet by rotating the entire leg below the osteotomy. Possibly a combination of both.
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Some people think that's it's just a pain thing and then that's it, increased height. But unfortunately, it is not.
I communicated with too many people who learned so the hard way. This is a combination of feedback I received from a few people who has already done limb lengthening via both internal and external methods:
"Pain during this procedure should be the least of ones concerns....it's the lingering after effects of doing limb lengthening that people should be concerned about.
Whether that be
- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."
One may or may not notice or realize it at the beginning, but long term, it's a different story.
This is not simply working out and building anew like some people put it....if it was, then there would be a whole lot less lasting complications since people would recover completely from it...
But unfortunately, Limb lengthening surgery is not like working out like how some people think it is...it's not just going through some pain and then rebuilding back stronger.
Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.
If physical pain during the lengthening procedure, as well as the cost and time; were the only things one has to deal with when undergoing Limb Lengthening, then this would be heaven....but unfortunately, it is not.
Countless patients in the past, who lengthened various amounts with various Doctors (From the some of the best, to some of the worst) and various techniques (internal, external, or both) have found out.
This is the reality, and even though people may not want to hear, I feel it's something people need to know beforehand because it's critically important for their lives, before making this life-altering decision.
Of course, if the mental anguish of height neurosis is so bad, and if you feel that you will miss out more in life due to height prejudice / height neurosis even though you would be at peak physical healthiness / abilities, then maybe it's worth sacrificing some (or a lot) of physical freedom / health to open one's life up to the increased benefits from the increased height.
Height increase does have its benefits, but there will always be a cost, and it's not just temporary Lengthening pain, money, or time...a lot of times, it's more.
But then again, physical abilities go down overtime anyway, but the life you have with the increased in height, well that may be worth it...in the end, one must decide which possible path is the best for them to live the fullest life possible with the least amount of restrictions ...if it has to be with the height then maybe height increase is worth it.
But if the height is not really something that's worth permanently damaging yourself or losing a portion of your athletic / everyday freedom, as well as being symptom-free from ongoing aches, pains, nerve damages, and increased risk of other physical consequences in the future, then maybe one should work on their mental state and other physical attributes like working out, rather then their height."
Great post. This is the type of reality check needed. If you are so unhappy with your height that you are prepared to take the risks described, only then should you consider CLL.
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Dameon, that was a fantastic post. You should sticky that somewhere on the forums. Too many users here are unaware that there's permanent side effects to LL and that this is something that's unavoidable. When I read that people want to run faster with longer legs or start a professional sports career, I just shake my head. You cannot stretch and build muscle through these problems, they will definitely affect you regardless of your PT. Your body is not at a naturally increased height, you are the product of artificial lengthening. Saying you can run faster after LL is like saying muscle implants in your arms will make you lift more weights. ::)
I agree. Either Dameon's post or this page in particular should be stickied to the top of the Limb Lengthening Discussion and Questions section. It's something that everyone considering this surgery should read.
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This post just made me a little depressed. I thought you could make a full recovery after LL. I know people say they lose a little athletic ability but I thought after a couple years if you work on it everything would get back to normal :/
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short kid... I'm not done yet, but i will tell you the most likely longterm complications from ll
i guess early arthritis is possible, but for various reasons,I'm not too worried about it, and won't not show up for a while,.. if it ever did in the future, I'm confident that i could deal with it, especially with all the medical advances that will happen in next 20-30 years
reduced athletic ability is a given... by that i mean you'll never be equal to the athlete you were before, but could be 90%, though it depends
painmaches, i guess its possible, thought i don't think this happens with all/most
what i think is a definite possibility is the numbness,reduced sensations in certain parts of my legs... it does not hinder the functioning of the leg, but it does feel odd to touch a part of your leg and have it be numb.... id say this complication appears to be quite frequent... permeant in a lot of cases too... its wort it to me though... id much rather be taller and deal with numbness than short and no numbness
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I absolutely have some numbness (1 month post ckicking).
I've met lots of patients who are a few years post surgery and they've all been free of any of the scary stuff. It's worth knowing all of the above but I think a lot of it is worst case scenario stuff.
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This post just made me a little depressed. I thought you could make a full recovery after LL. I know people say they lose a little athletic ability but I thought after a couple years if you work on it everything would get back to normal :/
It depends a bit on how much you lengthen, and what method you use. A lot of the the problems with the knees can be avoided if you dont use an internal nail on your tibias, and like doctor Franz (an ortopedic surgeon posting on this forum) confirmed, doing 5 cm or less is significantly safer than doing more. If you stay within that threshold, you should theoretically be able to recover to the point of not noticing the loss of athletic ability in the long run.
Since the mechanics of the legs are always changed, its probably impossible to technically reach 100% of what you where before, but the less you lengthen the less you change the mechanics of your legs, so it will probably not be noticeable at 5 or less cm.
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You can; Dr. Paley and Dr. Guichet say you can themselves.
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I've gotten in touch with Dr. Barinovs contact Irene and she informed me that he does can do "external and internal" which I assume means Lon of LATN for 2000 euros more than the listed price. originally I was set on pure external and staying the entire consolidation phase in Russia but if for 2000 more it cuts the time I gotta spend in Russia and is about the same price as if I did externals when factoring in housing and meals after the initial three month coverage. So I wondering in layman's terms if you could what's the so bad about doing LON and LATN on tibias?
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To my understanding the main thing, that at least turned me off, is permanent knee pain.
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Right we've read that on here but I can't figure out how exactly? Is the nail inserted through the knee?
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Yeah it is
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The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia. Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.
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The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia. Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.
does this depend on how much do you lengthen?
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Hi Herron52, do you happen to know how long a patient can stay in Russia for? Last I heard it was maximum 6 months.
I would probably go to Russia and also stay the entire lengthening and consolidation phase and go home once frames are removed but 6 months is simply not enough time...
Could you ask which visa you'd need and if a patient can get an extension on it?
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I plan to yes. She did say six months maximum and then went on to pitch combined internal. I'm curious to see how and if an extension is even possible. Perhaps it depends on your country of origin and their relations with Russia? No idea honestly. I do know that RGkEY stayed for about eight to nine months there til he got his frames off so.. There's got to be a way
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does this depend on how much do you lengthen?
Not one bit.
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Nice to see that. The problem is knee pain
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Why doctor doesnt inser the nail by another way and allways through the knee when is well know that it makes knee pain?
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I plan to yes. She did say six months maximum and then went on to pitch combined internal. I'm curious to see how and if an extension is even possible. Perhaps it depends on your country of origin and their relations with Russia? No idea honestly. I do know that RGkEY stayed for about eight to nine months there til he got his frames off so.. There's got to be a way
RGKEY IS the reason why you cant stay for more than 6months now lol ;) They had visa issues with him and got in trouble or something and now they cant offer more than 6 months hence why I was thinking of India which according to Kilokahn you can get a medical visa and stay for 6months and get another 4 months extension once over there? So in total 10 months which is close to enough time for frame removal? Depending on how many cms you lengthen of course :)
It works out roughly the same as Dr Barinov for me, its also hospital vs hotel in terms of accommodation
Could you give me more info on what she pitched to you regarding combined internal? Im quite interested on the topic?
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Dude, you don't need to stay here for your consolidation phase, that's completely uncalled for. It's a very boring phase and requires only patience.
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Well there are some of us who dont want our parents or friends and family seeing us in these hideous, medieval torture looking fixators and Im one of them. So going back home early to consolidate is a problem for me, especially since I wont be telling anyone, not even my parents lol. Atleast until I get back home after frame removal anyway. It will be a long and boring process no doubt but what can you do but cop it and hopefully get through it :'(
Plus I really dont want to go through the airport and get through customs with them on...
Do you think a patient can do say 5cms tibias, stay and consolidate and do Precice 2 on femurs for another 6-7cms 7-8 months after the initial tibia surgery while the fixators are still on your tibias and go home once you are done lengthening femurs and frame removal? Or is that a bad idea?
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Plus I really dont want to go through the airport and get through customs with them on...
??
Are you afraid they're going to strip you and search for guns in your anus, because they can't really use the metal detector machine?
At the very least you can rent an appartment in your country and just hide there instead of staying in Russia, lol.
Do you think a patient can do say 5cms tibias, stay and consolidate and do Precice 2 on femurs for another 6-7cms 7-8 months after the initial tibia surgery while the fixators are still on your tibias and go home once you are done lengthening femurs and frame removal? Or is that a bad idea?
Why not? And 5cm tibias shouldn't require you more than 6 months usually, at least if you're in your 20s.
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At the very least you can rent an appartment in your country and just hide there instead of staying in Russia, lol.
Why not? And 5cm tibias shouldn't require you more than 6 months usually, at least if you're in your 20s.
Renting an apartment in my home country and go into lockdown seems just as depressing as staying in a hotel for months and months lol. And the likelihood of getting seen on one of those days when I'll go for xrays or doctor visits seems very likely :o
I can apply for a one year medical visa in my home country and hopefully that will be enough time to do both segments consecutively, thats the plan so I think I'll be consolidating there(most likely going to be India with Dr Parihar)
If 5cms requires roughly 6 months then that will be great for me, but ofcourse everyone is different.
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don't do it if you only have a limit of 6 months. the stress of your visa running out will be a fuking nightmare in my opinion.
apply for a medical visa to encompass the entire duration such as an entire year. if you cant get at least 8 months then forget about Russia. or get LON in Russia. but full external should not be undertaken unless your visa is 8 months long.
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don't do it if you only have a limit of 6 months. the stress of your visa running out will be a fuking nightmare in my opinion.
apply for a medical visa to encompass the entire duration such as an entire year. if you cant get at least 8 months then forget about Russia. or get LON in Russia. but full external should not be undertaken unless your visa is 8 months long.
why not ? what about a person who don't care about being seen whit frames like me , i wanna do external stay for the first two weeks and length home
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I don't recommend getting surgery if you don't have access to a doctor.
ultimately you can do anything you like.
worst case scenario, you need surgery and don't have a visa. and have to wait for the visa approval which can take time.
what happens if you have premature bone consolidation.
in any case you don't need me to tell you the risks. you probably already know them. this is a 1nce in a life time surgery. I believe it should be done right.
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why not ? what about a person who don't care about being seen whit frames like me , i wanna do external stay for the first two weeks and length home
I wouldn't recommend this, there so many complications that can occur (and probably will).
But I don't think that your doc will even let you go home 2 weeks after the first operation, maybe after distraction, but not before that.
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I definitely would stay the six months the visa allows. By the end of it I'd be well in the consolidation stage with maybe two to three or four months remaining in the frames. I do think there's a lot less risk in doing that than simply taking off as soon as lengthening is done, due to the fact that by then I'll have been consolidating for least two months. So the rate of regeneration should be well established by then. I figured once I get back to the US I can take X-rays biweekly or so send them to the Dr while keeping up with all the aftercare necessary and go from there. Worst case scenario I have dr Rozbruch in NY right by me and I can consult with him should anything go wrong.
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People are stupid. South Africa is a developed nation. Everyone knows that.
The only thing that turned me off about going to Birkholtz was him mentioning that amputated the leg is a possibility. I know something like that probably won't happen and don't know if it has but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
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The only thing that turned me off about going to Birkholtz was him mentioning that amputated the leg is a possibility. I know something like that probably won't happen and don't know if it has but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
That can happen with any doctor, he's just honest.
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The only thing that turned me off about going to Birkholtz was him mentioning that amputated the leg is a possibility. I know something like that probably won't happen and don't know if it has but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
He is being honest about the worst possible outcome of LL which includes ampuation. It is important for prospective LL'ers to know that complications such as severe osteomyelitis, non-union, compartment syndrome and nerve damage can possibly lead to amputation. Keep in mind that death is also a possibility and it can happen with any surgeon.
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Yes right. I'm aware anything is possible and there is a price to pay for altering the anatomy of your body. The way he said it made it sound like the chances were greater with him that's all.
What are the odds of losing a limb and death (from the mental anguish or severe pain)
and has they're been any reports of them from any ll patient or forum? Also, is it more likely this would happen on exceeding 5 cms or 7.5 cms or even below 5cms?
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Yes right. I'm aware anything is possible and there is a price to pay for altering the anatomy of your body. The way he said it made it sound like the chances were greater with him that's all.
What are the odds of losing a limb and death (from the mental anguish or severe pain)
and has they're been any reports of them from any ll patient or forum? Also, is it more likely this would happen on exceeding 5 cms or 7.5 cms or even below 5cms?
I have read a lot if diaries and articles about LL the last couple of years but I haven't read any personal accounts of amputation. There are a lot of unfinished diaries and LLers that seem to disappear. That always concerns me and I think about the bad things that may have happened to them.
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Yes right. I'm aware anything is possible and there is a price to pay for altering the anatomy of your body. The way he said it made it sound like the chances were greater with him that's all.
What are the odds of losing a limb and death (from the mental anguish or severe pain)
and has they're been any reports of them from any ll patient or forum? Also, is it more likely this would happen on exceeding 5 cms or 7.5 cms or even below 5cms?
That can happen quite fast, it doesn't really matter how much you lengthen, a bone infection can always happen and if the antibiotics won't work and the OP is not a success an amputation is the last possible way to save you from death. Also a deep vein thrombosis, which can cause a pulmonary embolism, can kill you, that happens quite often.
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That can happen quite fast, it doesn't really matter how much you lengthen, a bone infection can always happen and if the antibiotics won't work and the OP is not a success an amputation is the last possible way to save you from death. Also a deep vein thrombosis, which can cause a pulmonary embolism, can kill you, that happens quite often.
Yeah. I can just imagine something went wrong with the unfinished Mahboubian Diary on here Such a sleazy doctor.
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There has never been a case of amputation with ll. I don't know what you're talking about.
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I'm very scare word"amputation" :'( :'(
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Yes right. I'm aware anything is possible and there is a price to pay for altering the anatomy of your body. The way he said it made it sound like the chances were greater with him that's all.
What are the odds of losing a limb and death (from the mental anguish or severe pain)
and has they're been any reports of them from any ll patient or forum? Also, is it more likely this would happen on exceeding 5 cms or 7.5 cms or even below 5cms?
Chances of amputation or death is very slim to zero with a good surgeon. Deep infection, embolism and compartment syndrome can happen regardless of how much you lengthen, the latter two mostly happens after surgery. Non-union could be multifactorial and nerve damage could happen with higher lengthening amount. There have not been any reported amputation cases in forum patient diaries but I have read studies that exclude some patients from the study because their outcome was amputation. They don't state the reason why they were amputated but these patients did have pre-existing trauma before fixation and some resulted in osteomyelitis and non-union. Compartment syndrome, complex non-union and osteomyelitis resulting to amputation have been reported in studies.
Just remember that these are worst possible outcomes to LL, although rare with a good surgeon. Judging from some of the posts in this forum, it seems that some prospective LL'ers take this surgery very lightly and believe that they're immune to very serious complications. It's not a good idea to be overconfident. You must consider and accept the worst case scenario before LL. A forum member did experience a life threatening condition a day after his surgery and he immediately had to be shifted to the ICU unit, despite having surgery with the best. His experience was horrifying and seriously made me reconsider LL. It was an eye opener. I believe that majority of serious complications related to LL will not be reported in LL forums and only a very few percent of LL patients do have diaries.
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Chances of amputation or death is very slim to zero with a good surgeon. Deep infection, embolism and compartment syndrome can happen regardless of how much you lengthen, the latter two mostly happens after surgery. Non-union could be multifactorial and nerve damage could happen with higher lengthening amount. There have not been any reported amputation cases in forum patient diaries but I have read studies that exclude some patients from the study because their outcome was amputation. They don't state the reason why they were amputated but these patients did have pre-existing trauma before fixation and some resulted in osteomyelitis and non-union. Compartment syndrome, complex non-union and osteomyelitis resulting to amputation have been reported in studies.
Just remember that these are worst possible outcomes to LL, although rare with a good surgeon. Judging from some of the posts in this forum, it seems that some prospective LL'ers take this surgery very lightly and believe that they're immune to very serious complications. It's not a good idea to be overconfident. You must consider and accept the worst case scenario before LL. A forum member did experience a life threatening condition a day after his surgery and he immediately had to be shifted to the ICU unit, despite having surgery with the best. His experience was horrifying and seriously made me reconsider LL. It was an eye opener. I believe that majority of serious complications related to LL will not be reported in LL forums and only a very few percent of LL patients do have diaries.
Yes I know. I knew that the outcome of losing life or a limb is very unlikely to happen but they're is still a chance. I think the fact that Dr. Birkholtz brought it up made me think that it happened under his supervision. I do not think I would lose a limb or die doing this operation but I do know that you are going to lose something with this surgery because no matter how successful the operation is you'll lose something like job promotion, personal relationships, lose of athletic ability etc. In my case, I think it's definitely worth going to various countries to get a good view of what it's like because all though I want this surgery more than almost anything, I know the thing that I want most could destroy me in the end even If I don't die or lose a limb.
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Yes I know. I knew that the outcome of losing life or a limb is very unlikely to happen but they're is still a chance. I think the fact that Dr. Birkholtz brought it up made me think that it happened under his supervision. I do not think I would lose a limb or die doing this operation but I do know that you are going to lose something with this surgery because no matter how successful the operation is you'll lose something like job promotion, personal relationships, lose of athletic ability etc. In my case, I think it's definitely worth going to various countries to get a good view of what it's like because all though I want this surgery more than almost anything, I know the thing that I want most could destroy me in the end even If I don't die or lose a limb.
I remember the initial reaction in Dr.B's page when he mentioned amputation and was derided by several forum members. But as a prospective LL patient I would want to hear the worst case scenario before entering the operation theatre. Sometimes patients only like to hear what they want to hear and many doctors can take advantage of this, but a good doctor will always let their patients know about the worst possible outcome and not guarantee anything with a risky surgery.
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mehh if its amputation, Just end your own life fast easy. Not alot lost. But if you gain that new height. life begins. 50-50. Only the worthy survive
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mehh if its amputation, Just end your own life fast easy. Not alot lost. But if you gain that new height. life begins. 50-50. Only the worthy survive
Don't agree. Some doctors are driven by greed and not your safety. Build a strong repport with your doc and if you genuinely trust him/her, you'll probably be okay.
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Chances of amputation or death is very slim to zero with a good surgeon. Deep infection, embolism and compartment syndrome can happen regardless of how much you lengthen, the latter two mostly happens after surgery. Non-union could be multifactorial and nerve damage could happen with higher lengthening amount. There have not been any reported amputation cases in forum patient diaries but I have read studies that exclude some patients from the study because their outcome was amputation. They don't state the reason why they were amputated but these patients did have pre-existing trauma before fixation and some resulted in osteomyelitis and non-union. Compartment syndrome, complex non-union and osteomyelitis resulting to amputation have been reported in studies.
Just remember that these are worst possible outcomes to LL, although rare with a good surgeon. Judging from some of the posts in this forum, it seems that some prospective LL'ers take this surgery very lightly and believe that they're immune to very serious complications. It's not a good idea to be overconfident. You must consider and accept the worst case scenario before LL. A forum member did experience a life threatening condition a day after his surgery and he immediately had to be shifted to the ICU unit, despite having surgery with the best. His experience was horrifying and seriously made me reconsider LL. It was an eye opener. I believe that majority of serious complications related to LL will not be reported in LL forums and only a very few percent of LL patients do have diaries.
Very good comment. There's a clear bias in the forums not to show the complications. I have been attacked several times for writing about what i have seen at a very popular doctor. Nobody gets attacked for writing nice things. Even patients with diaries try to hide negative things (they are still under treatment , how could they dare openly criticise their doctors? ) . They rather stop writing or simply don't tell the truth.
I personally believe if i went to India my experience wouldn't have been worse than what has happened to me in Germany.
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Chances of amputation or death is very slim to zero with a good surgeon. Deep infection, embolism and compartment syndrome can happen regardless of how much you lengthen, the latter two mostly happens after surgery. Non-union could be multifactorial and nerve damage could happen with higher lengthening amount. There have not been any reported amputation cases in forum patient diaries but I have read studies that exclude some patients from the study because their outcome was amputation. They don't state the reason why they were amputated but these patients did have pre-existing trauma before fixation and some resulted in osteomyelitis and non-union. Compartment syndrome, complex non-union and osteomyelitis resulting to amputation have been reported in studies.
Just remember that these are worst possible outcomes to LL, although rare with a good surgeon. Judging from some of the posts in this forum, it seems that some prospective LL'ers take this surgery very lightly and believe that they're immune to very serious complications. It's not a good idea to be overconfident. You must consider and accept the worst case scenario before LL. A forum member did experience a life threatening condition a day after his surgery and he immediately had to be shifted to the ICU unit, despite having surgery with the best. His experience was horrifying and seriously made me reconsider LL. It was an eye opener. I believe that majority of serious complications related to LL will not be reported in LL forums and only a very few percent of LL patients do have diaries.
Questions rising shorty,
1. Why will non-union lead to amputation? Worst case let it stay unconsolidated, walk with crutches all your life.
2. Are there sudden "signs" of these dangers: nerve damage and compartment syndrome? So that you can stop lengthening in a timely fashion? It's not like you go to bed doing 1mm and the next morning it's over, right?
3. You seem to have a tone of someone prepared for this kind of stuff? Could you have really lived through if you faced a leg amputation? I don't understand how someone who feels so unhappy being short and considers a ridiculously crazy procedure can accept such an adverse outcome. No offense, just curious.
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mehh if its amputation, Just end your own life fast easy. Not alot lost. But if you gain that new height. life begins. 50-50. Only the worthy survive
how do you suggest we end our own lives?
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Very good comment. There's a clear bias in the forums not to show the complications. I have been attacked several times for writing about what i have seen at a very popular doctor. Nobody gets attacked for writing nice things. Even patients with diaries try to hide negative things (they are still under treatment , how could they dare openly criticise their doctors? ) . They rather stop writing or simply don't tell the truth.
I personally believe if i went to India my experience wouldn't have been worse than what has happened to me in Germany.
What happened to you?
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Very good comment. There's a clear bias in the forums not to show the complications. I have been attacked several times for writing about what i have seen at a very popular doctor. Nobody gets attacked for writing nice things. Even patients with diaries try to hide negative things (they are still under treatment , how could they dare openly criticise their doctors? ) . They rather stop writing or simply don't tell the truth.
I personally believe if i went to India my experience wouldn't have been worse than what has happened to me in Germany.
I'm very sorry to hear that
Get well soon
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Very good comment. There's a clear bias in the forums not to show the complications. I have been attacked several times for writing about what i have seen at a very popular doctor. Nobody gets attacked for writing nice things. Even patients with diaries try to hide negative things (they are still under treatment , how could they dare openly criticise their doctors? ) . They rather stop writing or simply don't tell the truth.
I personally believe if i went to India my experience wouldn't have been worse than what has happened to me in Germany.
Unfortunately many people do dismiss things they don't want to hear. I'm really sorry for what you have gone through and I hope you do recover soon.
Questions rising shorty,
1. Why will non-union lead to amputation? Worst case let it stay unconsolidated, walk with crutches all your life.
Not all non-unions will lead to amputation. These days many cases are resolved with proper Ilizarov techniques, stem cells and growth factors but for some people non-union can last for many years or even life time and face complications such as fractures and infections. So they opt for amputation. Here is a study on non-unions http://actaorthopaedica.be/acta/download/2000-3/laursen-lass.pdf. There is one patient who requested amputation because he suffered from non-union, complications, disability and severe pain for 15 years.
2. Are there sudden "signs" of these dangers: nerve damage and compartment syndrome? So that you can stop lengthening in a timely fashion? It's not like you go to bed doing 1mm and the next morning it's over, right?
Yes, there are sudden signs of compartment syndrome and embolism
Here are some notes I prepared before my surgery and stored in my laptop for reference. You can call me crazy lol.
Compartment Syndrome
http://www.medicinenet.com/compartment_syndrome/article.htm
Signs:
Bleeding causes compartment pressure to rise and diminishes blood supply to nerves and muscles leading to:
-Pain exceeding the expectation of trauma
-Paresthesia (change in sensation) e.g tingling, tickling, prickling or burning of skin, pins and needles
-Paralysis of limb
-Tightness
-Bruising
-Swelling
Risks:
-Occurs hours or days after trauma
-Trauma include surgery, muscle, vascular damage
-Person with a history of anticoagulants
-Dressing, casts, splints constricting affected parts
-Permanent nerve and muscle damage mostly occur if patient is unconscious or heavily sedated, failing to report pain. Can occur 12-24 hours after compression
Treatment:
-Fasciotomy (making long incision on skin and fascia to release pressure)
-Removing cast, splints and dressing
Prevention:
-Early diagnosis and treatment should prevent complications
-People with cast should report pain under cast due to swelling, despite taking pain medications
Fat Embolism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2700578/
Signs:
-Occurs 24-72 hours after surgery/trauma (maximum at 48 hours)
-Tachypnea (rapid breathing)
-Dyspnea (shortness of breath)
-Cyanosis (blue/purple discolouration of skin) in head, neck, thorax, sub conjunctiva, underarm
-Hypoxia (oxygen deprivation in body or region of body) Maybe detected hours before respiratory problems
-Cerebral problems e.g. confusion, drowsiness, rigidity, convulsions(rapid muscle contraction and relaxation)
-Tachycardia (rapid resting heart rate)
-Jaundice
Risks:
-Trauma of pelvis and long bones
-Overzealous nailing of the medullary canal
-Reaming the medullary canal
-Increased velocity of reaming
-Increase in gap between nail and cortical bone
Treatment:
-Mechanical ventilation to maintain arterial oxygenation
-Albumin with electrolyte solution to restore blood volume and bind to the fatty acids to decrease lung injury
Prevention:
-The use of plates and external frame or smaller diameter nails decreases FES by reducing injury instead of nailing and reaming the medullary canal
-Using a pulse oximeter to monitor 02 saturation in blood therefore early desaturation will allow early oxygenation treatment to decrease hypoxic and systemic damage
-Preoperative use of methylprednisolone may prevent FES
Pulmonary Embolism
Cause
Blockage of lung artery from a blood clot developed in the deep leg veins.
Signs:
-Sudden shortness of breath
-Sharp chest pain and worse especially after cough or deep breath
-Pink foamy mucous cough/bloody cough
-Sweat a lot
-Anxiety
-Light headedness/faint
-Fast heart rate/breathing rate/irregular heart beat
-Heart palpitation
-Signs of shock
Risks:
- Surgery involving both legs/breaking bones where arteries/veins are affected
-Inherited risk of developing clots
-Slowed blood flow from long term bed rests after surgery, sitting for a long time, leg paralysis
-Abnormal blood clotting from blood vessel injury
-Not taking anticoagulents
Treatment:
-Anticoagulants (3 months after embolism or through life if risk remains high)
Hospital use of IV or shots/Home use via tablets
Slow down clot development and prevent clots getting bigger. But do not break up or dissolve existing blood clots
-Thrombolytics for extreme life threatening situations
All thrombolytics are capable of causing serious bleeding and capable of causing stroke and death.
-Embolectomy via surgery or catheter into the blood vessel
For patients with life threatening clots and cannot wait for medicine to work or for other failed treatments. Increases chance of developing more clots.
-Vena cava insertion into large central abdominal vein after failed anticoagulant treatment or bleeding risks fem anticoagulants. Or if a patient has an increase risk of death or restricted lifestyle for a recurrent emboli. Can break or be blocked with blood clots.
Prevention:
-Daily use of anticoagulants stops formation of new blood clots and prevents further growth of existing clots.
-Movement after surgery
-Compression stockings
For nerve damage, signs will be tingling, severe pain, loss/abnormal sensation, paralysis and loss of motor control.
3. You seem to have a tone of someone prepared for this kind of stuff? Could you have really lived through if you faced a leg amputation? I don't understand how someone who feels so unhappy being short and considers a ridiculously crazy procedure can accept such an adverse outcome. No offense, just curious.
Good question.
Yes I did prepare myself for the worst and I feel that in order to be ideal candidate for LL, people must consider whether they will be able to cope with the worst case scenario of amputation and whether others will cope in an unfortunate event of death. You may laugh at me but I made a will before I left for SA just to prepare for the worse. Personally, if I did lose my limbs then I would try and find solace knowing that I did try my best to fight the constant heightism I suffered for the past 20 years. I would then try and find happiness while being an amputee and not go straight into taking my own life.
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Yes, there are sudden signs of compartment syndrome and embolism
I went through those links, but some aspects of limb lengthening are not particularly addressed.
What I think now is that the "risky" part is during the surgery. After the surgery once you start lengthening, the worst outcomes can be poor recovery and non-union. I was wondering if everyday is a dread whilst lengthening, because nerve damage and contractures can happen even while lengthening as you indicated.
Good question.
Yes I did prepare myself for the worst and I feel that in order to be ideal candidate for LL, people must consider whether they will be able to cope with the worst case scenario of amputation and whether others will cope in an unfortunate event of death. You may laugh at me but I made a will before I left for SA just to prepare for the worse. Personally, if I did lose my limbs then I would try and find solace knowing that I did try my best to fight the constant heightism I suffered for the past 20 years. I would then try and find happiness while being an amputee and not go straight into taking my own life.
Is there a way to tell the doctor to euthanize you if things one of the worst outcomes happen and you have no control after that.
Do you think someone who has no motivation to live if the worst case of amputation happens is a good LL candidate? if not, why not?
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I went through those links, but some aspects of limb lengthening are not particularly addressed.
Some of the links only describe and address the condition itself. They are from general medical websites not specialising in LL but provide very helpful information on conditions that can manifest after LL surgery.
What I think now is that the "risky" part is during the surgery. After the surgery once you start lengthening, the worst outcomes can be poor recovery and non-union. I was wondering if everyday is a dread whilst lengthening, because nerve damage and contractures can happen even while lengthening as you indicated.
Yes the surgery itself is very risky and it is of vital importance to go to a experienced surgeon who specialises in LL. I'd consider the entire LL phase to be risky because the latency period after surgery is when chances of compartment syndrome,embolism and deep infection to be at its peak. The risk of embolism can also present during distraction and that is why some surgeons continue anticoagulant treatment with their patients.
You're right about the risk of nerve damage, contractures, delayed/non-union and poor recovery during distraction phase. Don't forget the risk of device malfunction. And then the chance of refracture and poor recovery during consolidation.
Is there a way to tell the doctor to euthanize you if things one of the worst outcomes happen and you have no control after that.
It depends where you reside. It's illegal where I live but maybe possible in your country.
Do you think someone who has no motivation to live if the worst case of amputation happens is a good LL candidate? if not, why not?
This is a very difficult question to answer to be honest since the views will be highly subjective. If height is the major cause of suffering and preventing one from living a normal life then that particular person would be a good candidate for LL, regardless whether he has the motivation to live after the worst case of amputation. Instead people should ask themselves whether they have the motivation to live at their current height? Remember that chances of amputation is almost zero with a good surgeon.
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How was your mentality whilst lengthening?
Were you scared all the time about such possibilities like you probably were scared just before surgery?
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How was your mentality whilst lengthening?
Were you scared all the time about such possibilities like you probably were scared just before surgery?
Pre-op nerves was the worst. The week before LL was very emotional and my flight to SA was possibly the worst flight ever because of the constant thought of whether I would make it through LL. After my consultation with Dr.B I looked forward to my surgery and just wanted to get over with it. I was really excited when they took me to the operation theatre the next day. I felt very euphoric and relieved right after surgery. During lengthening I was constantly occupied with the fear of nail failure and failing to reach my target. Other complications like nerve damage was the least of my concern because I paid very close attention to how my legs responded during lengthening. Fortunately I did not have any complications like nerve pain and contractures. The social isolation and the monotonous days during lengthening did have a toll on me but I kept my self busy with physio, cooking, reading study materials, TV, music etc..
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I wrote a response on this article regarding knee pain: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1562.msg24774#new (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1562.msg24774#new)
But I thought this would be a good area to post it as well, and hopefully it will help people make better, more informed decisions regarding their limb lengthening journey and their fate:
1. Pain when kneeling on a hard surface, occasional discomfort when walking. Nothing at all when standing still.
2. None, really. I can still kneel.
3. 3-4 when kneeling on a hard surface, 1 occasionally when walking.
I get pain too when kneeling on hard surfaces and I never had anything inserted into my knees. I also feel discomfort when walking for long periods of time, as well my feet ache (like normal people do)...All of these "issues" were always there, even before my Femur lengthening.
I think most normal, healthy people, if they had to kneel or "walk on their knees" on a hard surface will get some type of pain or discomfort.
On a side note: I also receive discomfort when using my Elbows to crawl on a hard surface as well even though I never receive shoulder surgery.
That is why we cannot be so rash to form conclusions based on small sample sizes.
Hence, why, for example, in Japanese or Asian cultures where is kneeling is customary, people are aware of the discomfort of kneeling on hard surfaces and oftentimes use pillows, mats, or other cushions when kneeling to give comfort.
http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481 (http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481)
http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481 (http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481)
The most important thing is as you have no pain or discomfort when functioning in daily life such as standing or walking, then one could say that your knees are relatively healthy and is in line with the general population.
For example, I read many articles of people who never underwent LL but still get knee pain for a variety of other reasons such as being overweight, being inactive, sports injuries, arthritis, diseases, Old Age and more.
I also read and personally witnessed people who were involved in traumatic injuries which required Metal rods; many of them had little to no issues whereas others complained about pain while being mobile and functioning in daily life. Whether that pain is because of their accident trauma or because of the IM Nail insertion is debatable.
I work in the medical field and see many cases of people who had IM Nail inserted through their knees and they are functioning 100% fine, lead an active lifestyle, and can do everything they usually do.
Also, I have personally witnessed other people who have never done LL still get knee pains even though there was no insertion trauma. Generally, they can barely stand for long periods and walk with pain. Some of these people cannot function in day to day life without pain or disability.
They have other issues which has caused knee pains such as being overweight, weak or unbalanced leg muscles, being inactive, unhealthy lifestyle, arthritis, diseases, from Old Age, and more.
This is a far cry from the "Superman" MDOW who can function in everyday life, and in his words,"feels stronger after my limb lengthening then before" and could lift more after his Limb lengthening then before it.
Finally, I have had the fortune to communicate with old patients who underwent Limb Lengthening with Rod Insertion (LON And LATN) and they have told me they experienced nothing negative longterm and fully recovered...even the Indian Doctor ones like sarin. Look at people like Smallguy, Captain America, or Calic.
So essentially saying, medical and biological responses are incredibly complex with many variables from a person's history, their bodies ability to heal, or many other countless variables so we cannot jump into rash final conclusions based on a very small sample size of a few active forum members.
Also, remember that the proper insertion of IM Nall for healthy patients who undergo Limb Lengthening in controlled way is different from the patients who experienced trauma, accidents or injuries and require emergency IM Nail insertion on top of their injuries and other variables.
Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
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I wrote a response on this article regarding knee pain: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1562.msg24774#new (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=1562.msg24774#new)
But I thought this would be a good area to post it as well, and hopefully it will help people make better, more informed decisions regarding their limb lengthening journey and their fate:
I get pain too when kneeling on hard surfaces and I never had anything inserted into my knees. I also feel discomfort when walking for long periods of time, as well my feet ache (like normal people do)...All of these "issues" were always there, even before my Femur lengthening.
I think most normal, healthy people, if they had to kneel or "walk on their knees" on a hard surface will get some type of pain or discomfort.
On a side note: I also receive discomfort when using my Elbows to crawl on a hard surface as well even though I never receive shoulder surgery.
That is why we cannot be so rash to form conclusions based on small sample sizes.
Hence, why, for example, in Japanese or Asian cultures where is kneeling is customary, people are aware of the discomfort of kneeling on hard surfaces and oftentimes use pillows, mats, or other cushions when kneeling to give comfort.
http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481 (http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481)
http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481 (http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/japanese-couple-kneeling-on-a-tatami-mat-in-traditional-way-18936481)
The most important thing is as you have no pain or discomfort when functioning in daily life such as standing or walking, then one could say that your knees are relatively healthy and is in line with the general population.
For example, I read many articles of people who never underwent LL but still get knee pain for a variety of other reasons such as being overweight, being inactive, sports injuries, arthritis, diseases, Old Age and more.
I also read and personally witnessed people who were involved in traumatic injuries which required Metal rods; many of them had little to no issues whereas others complained about pain while being mobile and functioning in daily life. Whether that pain is because of their accident trauma or because of the IM Nail insertion is debatable.
I work in the medical field and see many cases of people who had IM Nail inserted through their knees and they are functioning 100% fine, lead an active lifestyle, and can do everything they usually do.
Also, I have personally witnessed other people who have never done LL still get knee pains even though there was no insertion trauma. Generally, they can barely stand for long periods and walk with pain. Some of these people cannot function in day to day life without pain or disability.
They have other issues which has caused knee pains such as being overweight, weak or unbalanced leg muscles, being inactive, unhealthy lifestyle, arthritis, diseases, from Old Age, and more.
This is a far cry from the "Superman" MDOW who can function in everyday life, and in his words,"feels stronger after my limb lengthening then before" and could lift more after his Limb lengthening then before it.
Finally, I have had the fortune to communicate with old patients who underwent Limb Lengthening with Rod Insertion (LON And LATN) and they have told me they experienced nothing negative longterm and fully recovered...even the Indian Doctor ones like sarin. Look at people like Smallguy, Captain America, or Calic.
So essentially saying, medical and biological responses are incredibly complex with many variables from a person's history, their bodies ability to heal, or many other countless variables so we cannot jump into rash final conclusions based on a very small sample size of a few active forum members.
Also, remember that the proper insertion of IM Nall for healthy patients who undergo Limb Lengthening in controlled way is different from the patients who experienced trauma, accidents or injuries and require emergency IM Nail insertion on top of their injuries and other variables.
Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
why is he on the floor crawling in the first place? have not done it before the surgery and sure as hell wont become sports magasine #1 loverboy after.
Aslong as i can walk down to the supermarket with my girlfriend and take a ice cream. Or go to a festival and watch some shows i am all good.
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Think twice about this for cosmetic purposes. I've been witness of disastrous outcomes in otherwise perfectly healthy patients. This is not correct.
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Such as what?
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Think twice about this for cosmetic purposes. I've been witness of disastrous outcomes in otherwise perfectly healthy patients. This is not correct.
i didnt read what you said yet, please repeat
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Medcare, you’re usually very rude, but in this thread you’re telling the truth. Sometimes LL leads to disastrous outcomes, and sometimes these disasters are unavoidable, even if you’re operated by the best surgeons in the world. Fat embolism, for example, isn’t a theoretical complication, but a very real risk which is usually silenced in the forum and however happens. And there are patients from the best surgeons in the world who die from it. I’ve been told this by a very reliable source from a medical point of view.
Can we do anything to avoid these risks? Sometimes it's imposible to avoid these disastrous outcomes, but you can minimize complications by choosing a good doctor, who stays in the safe zone and respects the protocols. It’s better not doing more than one segment at once and even avoiding CLL if possible. Risks are high and real out there.
Do you happen to have any data on how often fat embolism happens?
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Only things about embolism death I found so far:
[Fat embolism during limb lengthening with a centromedullary nail: three cases].
Blondel B1, Violas P, Launay F, Sales de Gauzy J, Kohler R, Jouve JL, Bollini G.
Several methods are available for progressive limb lengthening, including centromedullary nailing, external fixation, or a combination. Each technique has its own advantages and drawbacks. In trauma victims, use of centromedullary nailing is associated with potentially fatal fat embolism. This fatal outcome might also occur during limb lengthening, particularly in bilateral procedures. To our knowledge, fat embolism has not been reported with the use of centromedullary nail for limb lengthening. This was a multicentric study of three cases of fat embolism, including one fatal outcome. In all, 36 centromedullary lengthening nails were inserted in the three centers before these acute episodes. The first two cases occurred during single-phase bilateral procedures, the third during unilateral lengthening.
Fat embolism could result from several factors, as reported in the literature. While the bilateral nature of the procedure has been incriminated, the observation of an embolism during a unilateral procedure suggests other factors may be involved. Considerable increase in endomedullary pressure during reaming and insertion of the nail has been demonstrated. At the same time, there is the question as to whether the reduction of the diminution of medullary pressure by corticotomy would be an efficient way of reducing the risk of fat embolism. Based on the analysis of our three cases, we suggest that the best way to avoid fat embolism might be to drill several holes within the area of the osteotomy before reaming, in order to reduce endomedullary pressure. This can be achieved via a short skin incision, sparing the periosteum before low energy osteotomy. Since applying this protocol, the three centers have implanted 17 lengthening nails, without a single case of fat embolism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18774027
Strategy in the surgical treatment of achondroplasia: techniques applied in the Department of Orthopedics and Traumatology Hospital of Lecco
M.A. Catagni, F. Guerreschi, L. Lovisetti
Between 1982 and 2007, 128 patients with achondroplasia were treated in the Lecco Hospital. 100 of these were treated with sequential bilateral limb lengthening and seven with crossed lengthening. The average tibial lengthening was 14.1 centimeters (range: 6 to 19 cm). The average femoral lengthening was 9.8 centimeters (range: 8 to 12 cm), and the average humeral lengthening 8.3 centimeters (range: 8 to 12 cm).
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The complications were classified as minor, moderate, and severe. Minor complications were those which required only modification of the apparatus during treatment. Twenty-three percent of the lengthenings required some modification of the device during treatment. Moderate complications were those which required additional procedures during lengthening. Forty-two percent of patients fell into this category. Finally, severe complications were those which required another surgery following treatment or had lasting sequelae of the treatment. Twenty-one percent of patients fell into this category. The most common complication was equinus contractures of the ankle which required treatment by tendoachilles lengthening. Two pulmonary emboli were sustained following percutaneous tendo-achilles lengthening. One patient died as a result of this complication.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10261-009-0032-9
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^^ Actually there are ways you can prevent Fat embolism .
This is what Dr Dror Paley have wrote about it :
http://www.screencast.com/t/aRmHCK8m
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So you wont be able doing sports after doing this?!
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This made me so scared.
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Does anyone know when fat embolism occurs? Can it happen all the way through the LL? Or only a few hours after the surgery?
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Interesting answer, mm. I like this kind of answers more than your other posts. In my humble opinion you're usually too credulous and naive. Too young perhaps? You should be more critical.
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Interesting answer, mm. I like this kind of answers more than your other posts. In my humble opinion you're usually too credulous and naive. Too young perhaps? You should be more critical.
Oh snap! Dems are fightin' words! :o
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Oh snap! Dems are fightin' words! :o
No. I'm just being friendly. I like this post.
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No. I'm just being friendly. I like this post.
What you said seemed like a backhanded compliment. You called MM naive lol. But I was only joking...I'll grab some popcorn and stay out of it ;)
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The opening post to this thread is great, as well as the list of any and all complication that may/will occur during treatment post surgery. It's definitely given me some perspective about LL. I had never honestly considered doing it while I'm still poor (maybe someday I'll be in the working class status if things at my job go well, lol). But honestly, I think if were to ever hit the lottery, I'd get the surgery, only get 5 cm on both bones (for a total of almost 4 inches) and attempt to make myself go from 5-2 (158 cm) to 5-6 (167). And if complications arose that prevented me from being athletic anymore, or worse yet, confined to a wheelchair, I think having my millions of $$$ would make up for it.
Sorry if my post is redundant to the topic but just thought I'd share my tfeelings on this with like-minded individuals :)
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These are complications of all surgery.
I had once a surgery to cut lump on my arm bone and i must signed a statement that it is possibility that i can't move my hands after that.
Did anyone know someone who all paralyzed or have nerve damage after LL?
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It is not so far fetched that general patients are apprehensive about reporting complication when still lengthening under the care of the surgeon. More so if surgeon regularly visits the forum.
I have personally seen few complications with some renowned European surgeons where patients have lost function. Generally compartment syndrome and foot drop is a very real possibility when doing internal tibias.
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I could find information about complications from tibia lenghtening surgery on Wikipedia, which had references from Pubmed. I could not find the link but I remember something about 75% suffered from arthritis. Does anyone have information about long-term complications after INTERNAL FEMUR lenghtening? Any scientific data or studys to back up the infos which are presented in the forum.
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Interesting answer, mm. I like this kind of answers more than your other posts. In my humble opinion you're usually too credulous and naive. Too young perhaps? You should be more critical.
That's a sh1tty humble opinion and you are 98% wrong. I have met the goddess herself in real life. Desperate is not the same as being naive or credulous.
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I could find information about complications from tibia lenghtening surgery on Wikipedia, which had references from Pubmed. I could not find the link but I remember something about 75% suffered from arthritis. Does anyone have information about long-term complications after INTERNAL FEMUR lenghtening? Any scientific data or studys to back up the infos which are presented in the forum.
Internal Femurs aren't relatively old or new, so I doubt there are long term studies into the after effect (I certainly couldn't really find anything). But, I would infer that a huge factor into what might cause Arthritis in relation to LL through the Femurs would be how much one lengthens and how the rods are inserted. I know for a fact Paley likes to insert his nails through the back, and not through the knees.
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Also the best/closest things to studies we have are these abstract conference book for an event that occurred about a month ago in which orthopedist congregated and talked about their own experiences.
http://illrsmiami2015.com/abstract-book/
As far as the details go it's very much sparse and vague as it can possibly be; to my knowledge none of the lectures were recorded or are available to the general public. What is interesting about this is that includes the like of Dong-Lee, Paley, and Guichet talking about their results with Cosmetic Limb Lengthening.
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Internal Femurs aren't relatively old or new, so I doubt there are long term studies into the after effect (I certainly couldn't really find anything). But, I would infer that a huge factor into what might cause Arthritis in relation to LL through the Femurs would be how much one lengthens and how the rods are inserted. I know for a fact Paley likes to insert his nails through the back, and not through the knees.
Do you have any idea what might be the red line here? Speaking about the insertion of the nail. Do you know if Dr Guichet uses the same technique?
I am asking myself these questions because tibia lenghtening seems to have a lot of correlation when it comes to knee problems. I was wondering if the same applies to femur lenghtening.
Also the best/closest things to studies we have are these abstract conference book for an event that occurred about a month ago in which orthopedist congregated and talked about their own experiences.
http://illrsmiami2015.com/abstract-book/
As far as the details go it's very much sparse and vague as it can possibly be; to my knowledge none of the lectures were recorded or are available to the general public. What is interesting about this is that includes the like of Dong-Lee, Paley, and Guichet talking about their results with Cosmetic Limb Lengthening.
That looks like a great ressource. Thank you! I wish we could find out more about the lectures.
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Do you have any idea what might be the red line here? Speaking about the insertion of the nail. Do you know if Dr Guichet uses the same technique?
I am asking myself these questions because tibia lenghtening seems to have a lot of correlation when it comes to knee problems. I was wondering if the same applies to femur lenghtening.
Typically saying 5 CM on either Tibia or Femurs always seems to be a great limit. It give you 2 inches, and if we are just talking about femurs here, 5 cm isn't that much in femurs. In fact, with femurs one might even be able to go as far as 8 cm (5 CM+ on tibia isn't a good idea for max recovery); although after that I wouldn't recommend going for tibia increase since your proportions would look weird.
So honestly If you want max gain of 8-10 and keep good recovery (we have no idea if we can get back to 100%; 90% seems close so far but who knows) then splitting the surgeries would be the most advantageous.
Also this is 4 years outdated but I'm sure it's still the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-TAvKepnv0
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Very good comment. There's a clear bias in the forums not to show the complications. I have been attacked several times for writing about what i have seen at a very popular doctor. Nobody gets attacked for writing nice things. Even patients with diaries try to hide negative things (they are still under treatment , how could they dare openly criticise their doctors? ) . They rather stop writing or simply don't tell the truth.
I personally believe if i went to India my experience wouldn't have been worse than what has happened to me in Germany.
Very good comment Metanoia. Popular doctors and their popular patients... don't tell the truth.
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Is it true, that you are not allowed to fly on a plane? I have read it on anold forum, that it causes tremendous pain, and it is almost unbearable to fly when you have internal rods. Of course, I mean after the lenghtening phase but before the removal procedure.
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Is it true, that you are not allowed to fly on a plane? I have read it on anold forum, that it causes tremendous pain, and it is almost unbearable to fly when you have internal rods. Of course, I mean after the lenghtening phase but before the removal procedure.
I have internal femur rods and I fly just fine with no pain. Most of the pain might be from sitting for too long while putting pressure on your rods due to the now shorter seats compared to when your femurs were shorter. This can be fixed by putting something under your feet to take the pressure off your rods and onto your feet instead. This only affects people with short tibias like me who can't reach the floor while sitting.
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Can we get back to the original topic? Is there ways for doctors to mitigate this or has there been any new techniques?
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That's an interesting post. It would be great to hear from people who had internal femurs done and if they have any complications say from two years onwards. The operation is costly both financially and in time. Considering the "cheapest" for internals in Europe is 48,000 euros not including accommodation/physio/food which is possibly another 8000 euros if one decides to stay for the entire lengthening period. ( say three months for 7.5cm) As well the person is out of work which I'm guessing for five months before walking "normally", that is nearly three months for lengthening and two months for consolidation (on crutches). That's five months out of your life and work ( if your job entails walking a lot or doing community work). It's a big sacrifice.
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http://www.childrenshospital.org/centers-and-services/anterior-cruciate-ligament-program/bridge-enhanced-acl-repair-trial
What do you guys think about this?! if the problem with this operation will be the knee? is it possible to recover 100% from this operation?
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New study shows that increasing Tibia/Femur ratio beyond 0.8 is correlated with long-term arthritis.
Copy paste from link https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26398436):
The Association of Tibia Femur Ratio and Degenerative Disease of the Spine, Hips, and Knees.
Weinberg DS1, Liu RW.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
When individuals with asymmetric lower extremities present for evaluation of limb-length inequality, correction can occur at the tibia, femur, or in both bones; however, there are limited data available to justify either technique. The aim of this study is to examine the normal ratio of tibia length/femur length (T/F), and to explore the relationship between T/F ratio and osteoarthritis of the spine, hips, and knees.
METHODS:
Bone lengths of 1152 cadaveric femora and tibiae from the Hamann-Todd osteological collection were measured. Degenerative joint disease was graded in the hip, knee, and spine. Correlations between the ratio of T/F and osteoarthritis were evaluated with multiple regression analysis.
RESULTS:
The average ratio of T/F was 0.80±0.03. There was a strong correlation between age and arthritis at all sites, with standardized β ranging from 0.44 to 0.57 (P<0.0005 for all). There was a significant correlation between increasing T/F and hip arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.006), and knee arthritis (standardized β=0.08, P=0.008).
DISCUSSION:
Increasing tibia length relative to femur length was found to be a significant predictor of ipsilateral hip and knee arthritis. Therefore, we recommend that when performing limb lengthening, surgical planning should lean toward recreating the normal ratio of 0.80. In circumstances where one bone is to be overlengthened relative to the other, bias should be toward overlengthening the femur. This same principle can be applied to limb-reduction surgery, where in certain circumstances, one may choose to preferentially shorten the tibia.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
This is the first study to report long-term consequences of lower extremity segment disproportion.
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I have:
-Altered sensation in my knees when kneeling or touching them, around the IM nail insertion sites and around the osteotomy sites
-Stiffness in my knees unless I exercise regularly
-Hypersensitivity in my knees when kneeling on a hard surface
-Worse balance than before
-A left ostoetomy scar that's thin and weak, that I have to protect from getting bumped or it'll break and bleed
-Altered mechanics in my legs which led to exertional compartment syndrome when walking, requiring fasciotomy
I hope my posts and diary here don't whitewash the issues I've dealt with and continue to deal with as an LLer. I did it and got my 3 inches without getting crippled. Those 3 inches changed my life, but sacrifices were made. LL is a tradeoff and there are consequences I'll have to live with from now on.
3 inches in the tibias is a lot, and more than what most doctors would recommend. I know LL is costly, but if you're concerned about complications, split the increase in height across the tibias and femurs. That way you can get 2 + 2 inches with far less risk.
how do you suggest we end our own lives?
You can go all high-tech (http://www.lifenews.com/2017/11/20/new-suicide-machine-with-detachable-coffin-lets-you-kill-yourself-anytime-anywhere/) about it :)
No, seriously, get the money for a top doctor and you'll be fine.
Fat embolism, for example, isn’t a theoretical complication, but a very real risk which is usually silenced in the forum and however happens. And there are patients from the best surgeons in the world who die from it. I’ve been told this by a very reliable source from a medical point of view.
Where did that happen and why wasn't the surgeon sued for malpractice?
Can we do anything to avoid these risks? [...] It’s better not doing more than one segment at once and even avoiding CLL if possible.
Exactly. Paley advises against doing both segments at once (http://www.paleyinstitute.org/centers-of-excellence/stature-lengthening-center/consolidation-phase). I'll be doing them three weeks apart.
tibia lenghtening seems to have a lot of correlation when it comes to knee problems. I was wondering if the same applies to femur lenghtening.
I've asked Dr. Paley about knee pain following insertion of nail in the tibias. His reply:
Very little if any knee pin in our patients with CLL after tibial lengthening. I think it has to do with the minimally invasive we we insert the rod and avoid damage or irritation to the patellar tendon.
So honestly If you want max gain of 8-10 and keep good recovery (we have no idea if we can get back to 100%; 90% seems close so far but who knows) then splitting the surgeries would be the most advantageous.
Exactly. That's my research too so far after spending weeks reading a ton of patient diaries. Keep your lengthening to 5-6 cm in the femur and 5 in the tibias, and pay attention to when physical therapy during the lengthening phase become suddenly more difficult - and stop there. The extra 1 or 2cm is NOT worth the pain and complications. Think 2 years to return to normal function instead of 6 months. Do you want that? In that year and a half you might as well earn the money to pay the difference between just femurs and femurs+tibias. This is the route I'm taking (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=5215.0).
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Where did that happen and why wasn't the surgeon sued for malpractice?
I don't know what doctor MM talks about. All I can say is patients sign a medical consent form where it says that fat embolism is a possible side effect of this surgery. When you get this surgery you must assume that death is a possible, if highly unlikely, risk. Doctors can't be sued if you die from fat embolism since it's a well known, though highly unlikely, side effect of this surgery.
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reviving the thread since I also want onions on pitfalls on lon/latn vs complete external. In pm many people advised me against latn/lon, but going full external woyld mean 9 months out of job.
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reviving the thread since I also want onions on pitfalls on lon/latn vs complete external. In pm many people advised me against latn/lon, but going full external woyld mean 9 months out of job.
LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-yB-7Um-A&t=1013) for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.
As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011 (https://www.fdanews.com/articles/162250-ellipse-technologies-precice2-limb-lengthening-system-wins-fda-clearance), the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628243/), you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.
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LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-yB-7Um-A&t=1013) for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.
As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011 (https://www.fdanews.com/articles/162250-ellipse-technologies-precice2-limb-lengthening-system-wins-fda-clearance), the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628243/), you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.
Thanks for the links.
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LATN was the method of choice by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-yB-7Um-A&t=1013) for many years and he was quite the evangelist, before the advent of Precice of course.
As a reminder Precice was cleared by the FDA in 2011 (https://www.fdanews.com/articles/162250-ellipse-technologies-precice2-limb-lengthening-system-wins-fda-clearance), the improved 2.0 version in 2014, so LATN is relatively contemporary. Here's some research by Dr. Rozbruch (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628243/), you can read the Abstract and Discussion sections for the pros and cons compared directly against classic Ilizarov.
Thanks man
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The patellar tendon is split and pulled apart to make a path for the nail to go into the tibia. Studies have shown 25% of patients who've had this done end up with permanent discomfort in their knees.
then why you did LON?
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Good question ! If there is a risk of permanent pain or discomfort with LON/LATN why people still do that ?
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Good question ! If there is a risk of permanent pain or discomfort with LON/LATN why people still do that ?
They don't want to spend a year with frames on their legs, but don't have money for internal femurs.
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I think if u keep the lengthening in moderation everything will be fine
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All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol. That is stupid. Take APO the god for example, lengthened 20 cm and now runs, plays sports and recovered completely to the extent that he can function like he did before. Then there are many people who did 5 cm and got fked up. Its about how dedicated you are and physical therapy along with the safe precautions. At the end of the day its also about luck. Lengthening is individual for everyone so stop posting this crap about how 5 cm is safer than 6 cm.
Taller in Kiev is another perfect example of someone who lengthened 11cm in his femur and Im sure hes doing better than most people here who haven't even underwent the surgery yet. If anyone cares to notice what Taller in Kiev and APO had in common was they were both motivated and had belief and of course didn't go to butchers. CLL is a different experience for everyone.
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Yea and we are going to take some medical advice over some loser on here. You are not a doctor.
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All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol. That is stupid. Take APO the god for example, lengthened 20 cm and now runs, plays sports and recovered completely to the extent that he can function like he did before. Then there are many people who did 5 cm and got fked up. Its about how dedicated you are and physical therapy along with the safe precautions. At the end of the day its also about luck. Lengthening is individual for everyone so stop posting this crap about how 5 cm is safer than 6 cm.
Taller in Kiev is another perfect example of someone who lengthened 11cm in his femur and Im sure hes doing better than most people here who haven't even underwent the surgery yet. If anyone cares to notice what Taller in Kiev and APO had in common was they were both motivated and had belief and of course didn't go to butchers. CLL is a different experience for everyone.
Hey man you say Apo. Do you read the Dr. Betz Asian patients lengthening from170to 179 in makemetaller forum? He said if stop 7cm everything would be better and you could see what he suffer after 2years for the surgery.
Do you read tall' dairy (Dr. Betz patients)? He would not advise anyone over 7.5cm in femur form his experience. The risk and time losing is over the gain.
Do you read many 8cm Precice femur patients in this forum? Most of them just do not satisfied with the result.
7.5cm patients in South Africa and 7.5cm up Penguin said 7.5cm in femur is fxcking dangerous.
Do you read crazy+6 diary(external tibia and femur) Do you see his picture?
Do you read Jim, android, pope dairy? They are all Dr. Solomin's patients in Russia.
Why do you think they stop 9-10cm totally in femur and tibia or 6cm in femur?
They are close to your height. Do they want more cm? I think sure but they are smart to stop.
Do you think your are so special and different from others that you can handle 13 cm in femur and tibia with Lon?
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All you people think 5 cm guarantees you safety, lol
people say it's less risky, not guaranteed safatey (unfortunately)
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Why does everyone on here hate Dr M? He was one of my considerations, and now after reading this forum I'm having second thoughts!
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All people says, max 5cm for tibia but doctors in Turkey says
No problem 7-8 cm for tibia.
I dont understand who is telling the truth.
Why would these doctors say that?
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I am a 23 year old male planning my LL experience for the near future. I became aware of my neurosis and discovered this site at the age of 16.
No disrespect to anyone who has used methods that may seem outdated now, but the newer technology (stryde) appears to have a different set of risks than that of the old. I'm not saying people who have had surgery done in 2007 with LON shouldn't be forewarning new users and new prospective patients, however, I think when listing risks it is important to understand more modern technologies are continuing to develop that allow for a smoother experience - and possibly a different set of long term medical complications or drawbacks.
I am also of the mind that none of us would be on this website if we didn't think that the benefits outweigh the negatives. All we have is hope and educated decisions to make with respect to doctors and techniques. My goal is to go with Conway or Paley using stryde. I plan to use all supplements vitamins, pre-stretching, and I've even read some interesting topics on stem cells. Bottom Line is if you are warning others to not undergo this surgery while at the same time enjoying the aspects of your gained height - the message is always going to be distorted.
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I am a 23 year old male planning my LL experience for the near future. I became aware of my neurosis and discovered this site at the age of 16.
No disrespect to anyone who has used methods that may seem outdated now, but the newer technology (stryde) appears to have a different set of risks than that of the old. I'm not saying people who have had surgery done in 2007 with LON shouldn't be forewarning new users and new prospective patients, however, I think when listing risks it is important to understand more modern technologies are continuing to develop that allow for a smoother experience - and possibly a different set of long term medical complications or drawbacks.
I am also of the mind that none of us would be on this website if we didn't think that the benefits outweigh the negatives. All we have is hope and educated decisions to make with respect to doctors and techniques. My goal is to go with Conway or Paley using stryde. I plan to use all supplements vitamins, pre-stretching, and I've even read some interesting topics on stem cells. Bottom Line is if you are warning others to not undergo this surgery while at the same time enjoying the aspects of your gained height - the message is always going to be distorted.
I completely agree with what you say. It's like putting candy in front of a child and telling him that if he eats it he can have cavities haha Anyone who is informed a little (I for example a few months alone) knows perfectly the risks it has and what complications it can have from the non-union of the bones to thrombosis or permanent damage.
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I think what we all should keep in mind is that we are sacrificing athletism, money, potential permanent risks, and time in order to gain height. The only one who can decide if it is worth it is yourself!
However, regardless of the method, so long as you are breaking bones. It WILL hurt. If you don't have support, it WILL be very dificult. Everything depends on your mental fortitude and being aware that you could lose everything in any moment.
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What you are saying is quite terrible but sadly most LL patients probabely feel this way. To be at a place in your life where you are willing to do this means you probabely have height neurosis and are suicidal. However I am very blackpilled on life and believe genetics is destiny and height is tied to success.
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The one's that actually go through it in the states at least are in my opinion, much more reasonable than just thinking "height is everything" They just have a neurosis and insecurity and complex that lowers their quality of life, but the ones that are suicidal in my opinion are not the ones who actually can afford LL, at least not in the USA. These are too busy in their head. The ones who simply have a big neurosis but otherwise are competent in life (and successful sometime) are the ones who can afford to throw 100 grand at a surgeon. I'm sure they have had a deep depression sometime in their life though regarding height, im sure all of us on this forum has had. However The ones in their basement continually weeping sadly and believe they are unemployed due to height, are a NEET solely because of their stature, unfortunately have a very miscontrued mentality, are probably never going to even have the money for LL. I feel for everyone though, neurosis can be very serious or minor and there was certainly moments where I have thought height means the entire world and I'm sure I'll feel that way too in the future.
it comes to the point where people are just tired of living their life with neurosis- not necessarily suicidal. but definitely something close to a depression which is really not that much better. some people do have minor neurosis and get this also.
a few months or a year of suffering and pain is worth it to cure a neurosis. anyone who thinks LL has no negatives is in their head and confused. the ones who do LL realize that it does have negatives, but it is worth it. the journey of LL is a hard one not just physically but mentally and more than enough diaries i have read where the person was isolated in a foreign country and depressed during lengthening. It is tough. It is sad. But I commend everyone who has to courage to go through this if they think they need this to just kill that neurosis and sound in their head. i respect all of you guys. i dont respect the people who think certain peoples don't have a valid neurosis simply because of their height though. I would be confused at a 5'5 women getting LL, but I will not judge. Because I know they also have suffered similar, just by virtue of being on this limblengtheningforum site you have suffered enough and want to change
i love all of u guises and take it easy on urself. you will come out of this one day. and be neurosis free if you tunnel vision into getting a balanced life with good savings and enough money.
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The one's that actually go through it in the states at least are in my opinion, much more reasonable than just thinking "height is everything" They just have a neurosis and insecurity and complex that lowers their quality of life, but the ones that are suicidal in my opinion are not the ones who actually can afford LL, at least not in the USA. These are too busy in their head. The ones who simply have a big neurosis but otherwise are competent in life (and successful sometime) are the ones who can afford to throw 100 grand at a surgeon. I'm sure they have had a deep depression sometime in their life though regarding height, im sure all of us on this forum has had. However The ones in their basement continually weeping sadly and believe they are unemployed due to height, are a NEET solely because of their stature, unfortunately have a very miscontrued mentality, are probably never going to even have the money for LL. I feel for everyone though, neurosis can be very serious or minor and there was certainly moments where I have thought height means the entire world and I'm sure I'll feel that way too in the future.
it comes to the point where people are just tired of living their life with neurosis- not necessarily suicidal. but definitely something close to a depression which is really not that much better. some people do have minor neurosis and get this also.
a few months or a year of suffering and pain is worth it to cure a neurosis. anyone who thinks LL has no negatives is in their head and confused. the ones who do LL realize that it does have negatives, but it is worth it. the journey of LL is a hard one not just physically but mentally and more than enough diaries i have read where the person was isolated in a foreign country and depressed during lengthening. It is tough. It is sad. But I commend everyone who has to courage to go through this if they think they need this to just kill that neurosis and sound in their head. i respect all of you guys. i dont respect the people who think certain peoples don't have a valid neurosis simply because of their height though. I would be confused at a 5'5 women getting LL, but I will not judge. Because I know they also have suffered similar, just by virtue of being on this limblengtheningforum site you have suffered enough and want to change
i love all of u guises and take it easy on urself. you will come out of this one day. and be neurosis free if you tunnel vision into getting a balanced life with good savings and enough money.
Right on the money and spot on with everyone I've talked to at Paley who actually went through with it.
For many (including myself) it just comes down to wanting to improve this one nagging area in an otherwise amazing, fulfilling life.
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Is it a piece of true news that one Korean patient died of improper LL skills?
I heard for once from domestic news that a Korean youngster set out for LL and died of surgeon's fatal
manipulations(also he is not sure to be Dr.Lee).
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This is scary af.
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All people says, max 5cm for tibia but doctors in Turkey says
No problem 7-8 cm for tibia.
I dont understand who is telling the truth.
Why would these doctors say that?
Everyone thinks they're telling the truth....it's very, very subjective on how much you can lengthen safely. I'd normally say listen to what Paley says on lengthening amounts since he has the most experience, but the what determines how much you can lengthen depends on how well distraction goes (some factors: dedication to pt, no infections, surgery went well, mental well being to get through pt and isolation, fixation device used, and more).
For example, someone I knew personally did combined tibia and femur 3 weeks apart and gained over 12cm total when Paley only suggests 10cm total for this surgery option. This person was stretching 5-8 hrs a day like it was their full time job and because so, the dr's let them lengthen more than normal since their ROM and other vitals checked out.
Dr's in india aren't as wise and may let tight patients lengthen more than they should....which in turn, creates more risks.
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I am really afraid of these complications, even if they have only a small chance. ButI noticed that everyone said that Dr. Paley was the safest doctor, and that 5cm of femur seemed to be a safe extension. so if I go to Dr. Paley for this operation and only do 4-5cm of femur, can this guarantee that I will be safe and sound?
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I am really afraid of these complications, even if they have only a small chance. ButI noticed that everyone said that Dr. Paley was the safest doctor, and that 5cm of femur seemed to be a safe extension. so if I go to Dr. Paley for this operation and only do 4-5cm of femur, can this guarantee that I will be safe and sound?
Sorry for the delay, but unfortunately not. Nothing is guaranteed, not even with femurs which IS A SAFER OPTION. Look at programdudes diary, he went to paley, had it removed by dr R, and his leg still snapped 4 months after rod removal.
Yet, you will increase your chances of a successful surgery and recovery by going with better doctors. Much of it after a successful surgery is your determination to stretch and trust in the process while in more pain than you've ever been in before.
You have 2 options. Do it and take what lottery ticket you get, or don't and try to come to terms with your height. Not trying to be harsh, js...it surely is a difficult decision.
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Ah... I see. It's really disturbing, but thank you for your explanation, man :)
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并不是李医生做的，他澄清过这一点。
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Hi, I got this in my inbox yesterday about Dr Giotikas' new research on the Stryde complication.
https://www.athensbjr.com/more-data-about-stryde-related-bone-lesions-from-dr-giotikas/ (https://www.athensbjr.com/more-data-about-stryde-related-bone-lesions-from-dr-giotikas/)
https://online.boneandjoint.org.uk/doi/abs/10.1302/1358-992X.2022.5.024 (https://online.boneandjoint.org.uk/doi/abs/10.1302/1358-992X.2022.5.024)
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I am really afraid of these complications, even if they have only a small chance. ButI noticed that everyone said that Dr. Paley was the safest doctor, and that 5cm of femur seemed to be a safe extension. so if I go to Dr. Paley for this operation and only do 4-5cm of femur, can this guarantee that I will be safe and sound?
Looking at the post immediately above, in pure strictly logical terms, I don’t believe so. Dr. Paley participated in Stryde development.
I don’t even understand why he's not active in contributions to clarify the issue, as Dr. Giotikas appeals to all colleagues.
And nevertheless, in surgery practice and as a doctor, Paley seems undoubtedly one of the best.
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Instead, this is more like how a healthy athlete/person who gets in a serious injury, such as in a sporting accident or car accident, and has to undergoes traumatic surgery which cuts open, damages, scars (internally and externally) and alters the natural body...sure they may recover to a point...but they will never be like their PRE-surgical / PRE-injured self.
Unfortunately no. Medical technology has come a long way since the advent of rando polish “physicians” medical tech. NuVasive and (I guess Betz) have developed a system that; if implemented would allow even an athlete (taking the right pharmaceuticals) to return back to novel function. LL != becoming irreversibly crippled. It’s 2023. You just need to be working with an elite physician. In medicine you get what you pay for.
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I did the LL in Cairo with dr. Yasser Elbatrawy .There were many problems during lengthening period due to his irresponsibility ! He is the most dangerous person i have ever met in my life...
I am in touch with two of his patients who did the surgery the same period with me.Both have mobility problems.