Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Information About Limb Lengthening => Topic started by: Medium Drink Of Water on October 17, 2013, 12:31:32 AM
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I was a tibia-lengthening patient at the Beijing Institute of External Fixation for five months in 2007. I went back and had my internal nails removed in late 2008. I'm done with LL but wanted to come back and share my knowledge with current and future LLers.
I'm currently working on a diary about my LL experience called "Fear and Lengthening in Beijing" that you can find in the Diaries section. But if you have any questions, go ahead and ask them here. Unlike the people on that old forum, I'm happy to answer anything here even if it's been mentioned in my diary, just in case you don't feel like reading the whole thing.
More about me:
Race/sex: White, Male
My age when I had LL: 25
Starting height and weight: 5'7" 138 lbs.
Current height and weight: 5"10" 138 lbs.
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How long did it take until you could run, not walk, down stairs?
Can you sprint?(like Usain Bolt on 100 meters, but not equal fast...)
Do you feel any strain or tightness in any part of your body?
Would you dare to jump down from 1-2 meters up?
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Question I have is, you are 3 inches taller but weigh the same? I would imagine you would weigh a little more right?
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1. What is your wingspan?
2. What do you think of your proportions? Have your thoughts changed over time?
3. Any regrets?
Very nice of you to be available to us. Thank you.
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How long did it take until you could run, not walk, down stairs?
Can you sprint?(like Usain Bolt on 100 meters, but not equal fast...)
Do you feel any strain or tightness in any part of your body?
Would you dare to jump down from 1-2 meters up?
I could run down stairs and sprint as soon as I'd healed up from the IM nail removal surgery. I was really careful with my legs while the nails were in, so I never tried doing either of those things until they were removed. I used a leg press machine at a gym and ran short distances but that was the most I did while I had the IM nails. I think most IM nail issues are caused by slow bone consolidation and/or too much physical activity.
When I squat, I feel some pressure in my knees. The knees are also sensitive when I kneel on hard surfaces. They're also a little stiff but they do have a full range of motion; if they were made of metal I'd think they were a tiny bit rusty. This stiffness goes away if I do kickboxing exercises but comes back in a few hours. I think all of these knee issues could've been avoided by doing external-only. Cutting open the knees twice, once to put the IM nails in and then again to pull them back out was a lot of knee surgery. I'm fine with my 5'10 height, but if I wasn't I still might not do femurs due to fear of developing hip issues similar to what's happening in my knees.
I don't have any ankle or foot issues. My hamstring flexibility is as good as it was before LL, but my quadriceps flexibility is a little bit worse (just a tiny bit) but I have no idea why.
I would jump down from one meter, sure. I've done that quite a few times. I'd jump down two meters if I had to and I doubt my legs would break like Sid Eudy's (Google "Sid Vicious WCW leg break" if you're not squeamish). I'd be mostly worried about what would happen to my knees from that two meter drop. The tibiae themselves are really solid.
Question I have is, you are 3 inches taller but weigh the same? I would imagine you would weigh a little more right?
When I got out of the hospital I weighed about 130. Almost everyone there lost weight; some people lost significantly more than my 8 pounds. I weighed as much as 160 a year ago but I was eating a lot and not exercising very often. Now I'm eating less and exercising more than ever. But yeah, it's surprising how little 6 inches of human leg (3" on each side) actually weighs.
1. What is your wingspan?
2. What do you think of your proportions? Have your thoughts changed over time?
3. Any regrets?
Very nice of you to be available to us. Thank you.
1. 5'10" so it's equal to my height now.
2. I think my proportions are fine. Nobody's ever mentioned anything about my legs looking strange.
3. I regret not being able to be happy with myself when I was 5'7". Lots of people shorter than that manage to be happy. Why couldn't I? Also I regret having the IM nails put in for the reasons explained above, although I can't be 100% certain I wouldn't be having those issues if I'd done external-only.
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I can relate to the knee issues and I'm afraid to take out the nail in India. I hope I can do that here in Sweden. The fact that you don't feel anything when you're doing kickboxing is bc you have such greater blood flow in your knees.
I'm still going to do my femurs. The great issue there is that EVERYONE will get it and I'm passing my wingspan with 6cm. But my shins are too long with +7cm. I don't recommend doing more than 5cm - for several reasons.
I am 180cm now but I still feel short. ALL of my friends are either equal or taller.
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Your issues on your knees in my opnion aren't because you opened your knee two times. For me it is because you did 3 inches on tibias, what makes your knee work harder. 7.5 cm on tibias is almost the same of doing 10 on femurs. This problem on your knees would be reduced if you did some cm on your femur to balance. I had titanium inside my femurs after lengthening with internals and i removed them, so I had to open my hips 4 times, and I actually don't feel anything on it. I think this issue you said has more to do with the amount you lengthen. For me ideal is 5 cm on tibias or 7 cm on femurs or both. However, I am sure you can "survive" very well with this knee issues.
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I can relate to the knee issues and I'm afraid to take out the nail in India. I hope I can do that here in Sweden. The fact that you don't feel anything when you're doing kickboxing is bc you have such greater blood flow in your knees.
I'm still going to do my femurs. The great issue there is that EVERYONE will get it and I'm passing my wingspan with 6cm. But my shins are too long with +7cm. I don't recommend doing more than 5cm - for several reasons.
I am 180cm now but I still feel short. ALL of my friends are either equal or taller.
Hehe yeah, I can relate to still feeling short at 5'10 in some countries. I went to the Netherlands and it seemed like almost all the men were taller than me. Even when I thought I saw a short guy from far away, he ended up being about my height when he got closer.
Your issues on your knees in my opnion aren't because you opened your knee two times. For me it is because you did 3 inches on tibias, what makes your knee work harder. 7.5 cm on tibias is almost the same of doing 10 on femurs. This problem on your knees would be reduced if you did some cm on your femur to balance. I had titanium inside my femurs after lengthening with internals and i removed them, so I had to open my hips 4 times, and I actually don't feel anything on it. I think this issue you said has more to do with the amount you lengthen. For me ideal is 5 cm on tibias or 7 cm on femurs or both. However, I am sure you can "survive" very well with this knee issues.
I was having knee stiffness/inflammation problems almost the entire time I was in Beijing, so I don't think it was caused by too much lengthening. I was at less than 2cm when these problems started. Some other patients told me I should just stop lengthening, but I didn't listen to them. The problems were a few inches above where the lengthening was taking place, and I wasn't going to spend $25000 and not get my height.
I think my joints/tendons are just more sensitive than average.
Nobody should read this discussion and decide not to get IM nails, and nobody should read this discussion and decide to get 5cm if they really wanted 7.5. Each LL case is unique, so your results can and will vary.
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What was the feeling in your legs like doing leg workouts on the weight machines while the rods were inside?
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I barely felt the IM nails at all on the machine. I was surprised at how quickly I was able to regain the strength in my legs. It only took a few months before I was leg pressing at my pre-LL level. Those IM nails can support a lot of weight if you're doing something smoothly and with correct form; it was forceful/jarring impacts that caused me to feel like there was some foreign object in my leg.
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I barely felt the IM nails at all on the machine. I was surprised at how quickly I was able to regain the strength in my legs. It only took a few months before I was leg pressing at my pre-LL level. Those IM nails can support a lot of weight if you're doing something smoothly and with correct form; it was forceful/jarring impacts that caused me to feel like there was some foreign object in my leg.
That's reassuring information.. I was hoping it wouldn't be too uncomfortable using weights while the rods were still in.
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Did you had any physical preparation before LL and how was your fitness level heading into the surgery?
What's your observations about how physical fitness affect the patient's outcome?
Cheers
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I worked out regularly anyway, so I didn't need to do any special preparation. My fitness level was quite good going in to LL.
Physical fitness didn't seem to matter that much during the lengthening phase, when the fixators were on. In general the fitter people had an easier time of it, but not that much easier.
The biggest differences I observed were related to the consolidation/recovery phase with the IM nails. The less fit people took longer to recover and get their IM nails out, and were more prone to IM nail problems while they were in.
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Do you play any contact sports now? E.g. football (soccer).
Curious to know how this may have impacted your abilities.
Regarding your knee problems, is this a common thing with internals? I've always read that internals is a "better" method and less risky than external, but the knee problem is pretty worrisome. I can only imagine it'd get worse with old age, unfortunately.
Did you have physiotherapy lessons when you returned home? Do you occasionally still have them at all?
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Do you play any contact sports now? E.g. football (soccer).
Curious to know how this may have impacted your abilities.
Regarding your knee problems, is this a common thing with internals? I've always read that internals is a "better" method and less risky than external, but the knee problem is pretty worrisome. I can only imagine it'd get worse with old age, unfortunately.
Did you have physiotherapy lessons when you returned home? Do you occasionally still have them at all?
I've never played contact sports. I'm a little slower, a little less agile, and have less endurance in my legs. That would certainly negatively affect performance, but I'm not sure by how much. My muscles just never grew big/strong enough to match the new bone length, although my flexibility is excellent. The bone is as strong as natural bone now, so my risk of breaking my legs isn't any higher than it would have been without LL.
When I look at pictures of knee anatomy, it appears that the issue is with my patellar tendon. That's where the stiffness and sensitivity are. I know that they split that tendon vertically and stretch it apart to create an opening to insert/remove IM nails. This is the standard way of doing it everywhere, not just a Beijing technique. I don't know how common it is, but it's worth mentioning that I've had an issue with inflammation in my wrists/hands before when I was working with computers all day, so I might be more prone to this type of problem than others.
I did go to an American physiotherapist when I got home. I think I made about six visits. It didn't need to be an ongoing thing. She showed me exercises and stretches, all of which could be done on my own once I'd learned to do them properly.
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Very interesting!
Have you spoken to Doctors etc to discuss whether there's anything they're able to do to help, or is it something you wouldn't be able to fix?
You said earlier that you regret the operation, which is much of the reason I don't want to take the plunge, yet.
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Just to clarify, what I regret is not being able to be happy with myself at my previous height. Most likely that would never have happened though, so I don't regret having the surgery. It changed my life for the better, much for the better. My self-confidence skyrocketed after I got home from Beijing, and I had a completely different outlook on life. LL is better than any antidepressant. It's a treatment for mental illness or dwarfism. No mentally stable 5'7" person needs LL.
I saw a doctor about my knees but all he did was give me some Prednisone which didn't help any. Cortisone injections make it all better but those aren't a long-term treatment option.
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Did you ever experience bitterness or disillusionment towards society for treating you differently due to a change in such a superficial factor that has little bearing on who you are as a person?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "had a completely different outlook on life".
Thanks for doing this.
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Did you ever experience bitterness or disillusionment towards society for treating you differently due to a change in such a superficial factor that has little bearing on who you are as a person?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "had a completely different outlook on life".
Thanks for doing this.
No, I wasn't bitter toward society. The person who judged me the harshest was always me. I was and still am one of society's worst offenders when it comes to being superficial, so that'd be kind of hypocritical anyway. :P
Before LL, I knew what it would take for me to be happy - become rich and famous. Movie Star and Rock Star were my only choices. I'd get famous or keep trying no matter what, even if I was writing songs in the gutter between acting auditions. No matter how unlikely, I had to go for it because there was no other life I could see myself living. There never really was a plan B, just some vague idea that I might quit and figure something else out if I hadn't made it big by the time I was old.
When I came back from Beijing, I started to think that having a regular job and a wife was an acceptable life. The Napoleon complex was gone. It was okay for me to have a normal life and be an average person. Four years later I had a bachelor's degree.
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What did you tell people when they asked about your height increase?
Do you think you should have opted for 2 different surgeries with lower height increases on each?
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What did you tell people when they asked about your height increase?
Do you think you should have opted for 2 different surgeries with lower height increases on each?
My mother was kind enough to tell everyone with ears that I was getting the surgery. I couldn't believe her lack of discretion. Guess I should've said DO NOT TELL ANYONE I AM GETTING LEG LENGTHENING. But oh well, that ship sailed before I knew it had pulled up anchor. Some people we don't see very often believed me when I told them I grew.
I'm not sure about the two surgeries instead of one. I can see the advantage in theory of not stretching out one bone segment so much, but that's a lot of cutting and reaming and money to do two operations. And I don't know which problems I'd still have and which ones I wouldn't. Someday some identical twins are going to have to settle the issue once and for all. ;)
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If possible can you compare the benefits of going from 5'7 --> 5'10 and going from 5'10--> 6'1. I can't find where you said what country you are from?
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If possible can you compare the benefits of going from 5'7 --> 5'10 and going from 5'10--> 6'1. I can't find where you said what country you are from?
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I went from 5'8 to 5'11 and I'm not really sure how that have impacted on my life yet.
Actually so far it's been mostly embarrassing and I had to hide it.
There is no really benefit that I know of. I noticed some girls were looking at me at the gym the other day but they've done that lots of times before too.
Maybe I should try dating to see if there's any difference ;D
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If possible can you compare the benefits of going from 5'7 --> 5'10 and going from 5'10--> 6'1. I can't find where you said what country you are from?
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I think the most benefit from LL is going from short to average. In my opinion average height should be the goal of every LLer. It doesn't seem worth it to go from average to tall.
Being short has drawbacks, being tall has benefits. Getting rid of those drawbacks will change your life way more than gaining the benefits of being tall.
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I think the most benefit from LL is going from short to average. In my opinion average height should be the goal of every LLer. It doesn't seem worth it to go from average to tall.
Being short has drawbacks, being tall has benefits. Getting rid of those drawbacks will change your life way more than gaining the benefits of being tall.
For me, when I go from 5' 5.75" (where the average is around 5' 10" in the US) lengthening all the way to a little over 5' 10", it will change my life drastically. I've always been short, and have received discrimination from not even just women, but from men who like to make me feel inferior just because I'm short. I'm not wanting to do this for the women, I'm doing this for the respect that I can't otherwise have just because I'm physically short.
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I went from 5'8 to 5'11 and I'm not really sure how that have impacted on my life yet.
Actually so far it's been mostly embarrassing and I had to hide it.
There is no really benefit that I know of. I noticed some girls were looking at me at the gym the other day but they've done that lots of times before too.
Maybe I should try dating to see if there's any difference ;D
I don't understand? I always thought your situation was rather strange as you have already got a wife, good job and a hobby that relies on being agile. But, this just confirms that LL has little to offer you. What confuses me further is you want to go back for a second surgery!? What do you think you have to gain from this? Just curious
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I want to gain height.
I imagine people will stop looking at me like I was a child.
Maybe it'll benefit me in my work, making me boss or something.
Lets see, it was too tempting NOT to do it. AND, I decided already when I was 14 yo that it was something I was going to do.
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Do you feel the way you walk/run/otherwise use your legs has changed since the operation and 'recovery'?
How have your scars healed? It might be asking too much to see pictures, whatever you're comfortable with.
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Actually so far it's been mostly embarrassing and I had to hide it.
Is it you feeling embarrassed because people 'look down' on you for having the surgery? Or some other reason?
You've made a brave life decision, never feel embarrassed! :)
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Do you feel the way you walk/run/otherwise use your legs has changed since the operation and 'recovery'?
How have your scars healed? It might be asking too much to see pictures, whatever you're comfortable with.
Yes, I feel like my strides are shorter when I walk. I have to take more steps to travel the same distance as someone who's a natural 5'10. Having longer tibiae means a shorter stride, having longer femurs means a longer stride. The tibia:femur ratio affects when your foot will hit the ground in your stride. It's less noticeable when I run.
When driving, I have to adjust the seat differently. The seat goes all the way back, and the backrest goes all the way forward. The tibiae got longer but the arms didn't.
Hey,
After LL, how did you deal with these things?
1. explaining to employers about why you were not working for a year
2. getting a job/going back to school?
3. explaining to employers you got height surgery?
Could you post a picture of your scars on the forum?
When people see your scars what do they say?
1. I had a whole lot more than just a year of not working to explain to potential employers. I'd never had a job before LL and didn't get my first one until two years after. What I say in job interviews varies depending on what they ask, and if they try to dig too deep I just end the interview. If your situation requires a detailed explanation, I suggest either telling the truth or making up a story nobody would be able to contradict.
2. I'd gone to college and dropped out multiple times as a short guy with mental illness. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in America there are community colleges that accept everyone who applies. You can do half a bachelor's degree there and then transfer to a 4-year university as a 3rd year student. Most state universities are required to accept community college transfer students with a 2.0 or better GPA.
3. I don't tell anyone I got height surgery except doctors, and only the doctors that need to know about it.
If anyone asks about my scars I tell them I had knee surgery. I had scar removal done by a plastic surgeon so they don't show much. I'll be telling the full story about scar removal in my diary once I get to the post LL-phase. Here are some pics of my right knee.
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I think you are really helping this forum and I have enjoyed everything you have written. I was wondering about the S-cut by the Beijing Institute. Did you have this done to you? Do you feel that it is a much better way to have the bone cut? Any information about that would be helpful, thanks.
By the way your diary is really interesting. I hope you keep posting great information.
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I got mine done before they started doing the S-cut or double cuts, or whatever method they're doing now. Actually one of the first test patients getting the double cut method arrived about halfway through my LL. He had a weird piecemeal frame because the new design wasn't finalized. It was a complicated hassle for him to do his turns.
The reason they started doing it differently was to speed up bone growth. Asians tend to have slower bone growth so they had a lot of Chinese patients in danger of non-union. Some ended up lengthening .33mm a day or less sometimes, and having to take breaks from turning entirely. Some gave up before reaching their goals. Chinese locals there pay by the centimeter so it was costing the clinic money.
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Umm... I'm COMPLETELY new to ALL of this... just a heads up.
Are you're proportions right? Torso and arms? Are they short? Can people tell something is up if your shirtless? Also, does six inches sound excessive?
P.s. can someone...like..walk me through on how to use this site? The most I've ever been involved on an online community is yahoo answers :P
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I don't understand? I always thought your situation was rather strange as you have already got a wife, good job and a hobby that relies on being agile. But, this just confirms that LL has little to offer you. What confuses me further is you want to go back for a second surgery!? What do you think you have to gain from this? Just curious
aha ha ha ha This is exactly why u cant just listen to what ppl say. actions speak louder than words.
the fact that he wants to go back for seconds ( spending money and time and risking complications) gives a far better picture of the benefits of LL than what he might post /say.
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aha ha ha ha This is exactly why u cant just listen to what ppl say. actions speak louder than words.
the fact that he wants to go back for seconds ( spending money and time and risking complications) gives a far better picture of the benefits of LL than what he might post /say.
Yes, I've been short all of my life and I still don't feel the way I want to.
If I don't get any benefit then fine, I'm doing this for myself.
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Umm... I'm COMPLETELY new to ALL of this... just a heads up.
Are you're proportions right? Torso and arms? Are they short? Can people tell something is up if your shirtless? Also, does six inches sound excessive?
P.s. can someone...like..walk me through on how to use this site? The most I've ever been involved on an online community is yahoo answers :P
My proportions are fine. Nobody has ever noticed anything weird about my body. Many short guys have disproportionately short legs anyway, which was the case with me. There are people who have done six inches (2-3 on tibiae, 3-4 on femurs) and that's definitely a lot, but whether it's excessive is debatable. You might look a little bit odd doing 6 inches, but how odd depends on the rest of your body. Some people want the extra height no matter what.
Well, you successfully made a post here so you're doing it right. All the other features are pretty much superficial. The only other important thing to know about is "MY MESSAGES" near the top of the screen. When a number appears next to that, it means you have a new private message. If you want to talk with another member without everyone else seeing the conversation, you use the private message system.
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Thank you :)
However, I still don't know how to make my own post. Is this because the site has deemed me a "newbie" and I don't have that privilege?
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No, only old forum restricts newbies from doing things. Click where I've circled in the picture.
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Yes, I've been short all of my life and I still don't feel the way I want to.
If I don't get any benefit then fine, I'm doing this for myself.
Hi Sweden, don't take this the wrong way, but, perhaps a psychiatrist would be a cheaper/quicker solution to your issues? If you acknowledge no noticeable benefit from your initial surgery yet want to proceed with a second then clearly the way you feel isn't due to any external factors but a height complex. Visits to a psychiatrist could save you a sizable chunk of money not to mention all the negative of LL. If you still want to do it after some sessions then by all means, but, you really have nothing to lose by talking it over with someone. Much love.
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Hi
This might has been asked already (my apologies):
How long was the lengthening period? (As accurate as possible please)
At which rate (lengthening)?
Did you had any administrator problems because of LL before? (For ex not able to go home because of the papers)
Did you suffer ANY side effects that ISN'T curable after the LL?
Can you walk normal without having any problems for a long period?
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Hi
This might has been asked already (my apologies):
1. How long was the lengthening period? (As accurate as possible please)
2. At which rate (lengthening)?
3. Did you had any administrator problems because of LL before? (For ex not able to go home because of the papers)
4. Did you suffer ANY side effects that ISN'T curable after the LL?
5. Can you walk normal without having any problems for a long period?
1. I was in Beijing for 5 months and I lengthened 7.5cm during that time.
2. Rate of lengthening was highly variable. In the beginning they tell everyone to lengthen .66mm per day, and they wait for x-rays to see how good your bone growth is before telling you to lengthen more or less each day. My bone growth was excellent so in the end they were telling me to lengthen 1.33mm per day.
3. No.
4. I'm not sure if the stiffness/sensitivity in my knees will ever go away.
5. Yes. I can walk for hours.
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Hi,
You said you were in Beijing for 5 months and you gained 7.5cm, did you stay in Beijing for a few months after frame removal?
Could you give a rough, brief timeline of how long you lengthened for, how long after surgery you got your frames removed, how long after frame removal until you could first walk without crutches and how long after frame removal until you could walk normally.
Thanks.
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Hi,
You said you were in Beijing for 5 months and you gained 7.5cm, did you stay in Beijing for a few months after frame removal?
Could you give a rough, brief timeline of how long you lengthened for, how long after surgery you got your frames removed, how long after frame removal until you could first walk without crutches and how long after frame removal until you could walk normally.
Thanks.
My plane ticket departed 5 months to the day after I arrived in Beijing. I stayed for 2 weeks after frame removal. They want you to stay for 2 weeks to make sure everything is okay with the IM nails but then you're done.
Time in frames - 4 1/2 months
Walking without crutches - 3 months after frame removal (I was very careful and conservative with this. People who rush it are prone to problems with the IM nails).
It's hard to say when I could walk "normally." It was a gradual, steady improvement. By the time I ditched the crutches, there was nothing unusual about the way I walked.
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So 4 and a half month lengthening for 7.5cm?
Isn't that slow?
1mm/day = 3cm/month = 2,5 month = 7,5cm (if math is correct)
How come it took so long?
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So 4 and a half month lengthening for 7.5cm?
Isn't that slow?
1mm/day = 3cm/month = 2,5 month = 7,5cm (if math is correct)
How come it took so long?
Pin bending and taking breaks from turning due to knee stiffness.
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What were the 'causes of pin bendings?
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Weight bearing and muscle resistance are the two causes of pin bending. It happens to everyone using a pin-based device, it wasn't a complication.
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Thanks so much for doing this. This thread is more helpful than almost anything I have seen from past LL vets on old forum . If you don't mind, I have a few additional questions?
1. When you had to renew a drivers license or passport post-LL, did your height increase cause any problems/complications/suspicion?
2. Assuming you have health insurance, will your coverage costs increase if it is found out that you had this procedure? I assume a doctor would notice a height increase at a checkup at some point, wouldn't they, and after age 23 they would probably investigate, right?
3. Do you have any kind of nerve damage or change in your legs post-LL? Are any areas more/less sensitive? Is your feeling ability altered in any way? Can you move all of your toes as well as pre-LL?
4. Are you able to sit comfortably in a normal chair for long periods of time (an hour or more), or do longer tibiae make it uncomfortable?
5. Have you tried climbing ladders, trees, or rock walls post LL? If so, how did you fare?
6. Can you walk as much as you want without experiencing more leg pain than before LL?
Thanks so, so much again for doing this! People like you are the reason I left old forum in favor of this forum.
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Thanks so much for doing this. This thread is more helpful than almost anything I have seen from past LL vets on old forum . If you don't mind, I have a few additional questions?
1. When you had to renew a drivers license or passport post-LL, did your height increase cause any problems/complications/suspicion?
2. Assuming you have health insurance, will your coverage costs increase if it is found out that you had this procedure? I assume a doctor would notice a height increase at a checkup at some point, wouldn't they, and after age 23 they would probably investigate, right?
3. Do you have any kind of nerve damage or change in your legs post-LL? Are any areas more/less sensitive? Is your feeling ability altered in any way? Can you move all of your toes as well as pre-LL?
4. Are you able to sit comfortably in a normal chair for long periods of time (an hour or more), or do longer tibiae make it uncomfortable?
5. Have you tried climbing ladders, trees, or rock walls post LL? If so, how did you fare?
6. Can you walk as much as you want without experiencing more leg pain than before LL?
Thanks so, so much again for doing this! People like you are the reason I left old forum in favor of this forum.
1. No. Most peoples' drivers' licenses list their height/weight when they were 18 so it's not unusual for someone to be taller or heavier. That was the case for me. I know Jungle was concerned it'd be an issue because he lengthened so much and did it later in life, so he had Dr. Mitkovic write a letter for him explaining the surgery in case he'd need it.
2. My health insurance did not go up because of this. As far as I know, no cosmetic surgery causes insurance rates to rise.
3. I have a little bit of numbness right where the osteotomy sites are. Most of the time I don't notice anything though. I can move my ankles/toes/feet as well as I could before the surgery.
4. I can sit as long as I want/need to. The longer tibiae didn't change anything regarding sitting endurance. ;D
5. Ladders are no problem. It's a little harder to climb trees and walls because the longer tibiae have to be pulled up higher to get the feet where they need to go, but not so hard as to make me not do it.
6. My lower leg muscles get a little more sore after really long walks than they used to, but I still go on really long walks without having to stop. The difference isn't very much.
Well I'm glad I can help people and hurt that terrible forum at the same time. 8) So keep the questions coming if you're curious about anything. But remember I'm only an expert on my personal LL experience, and your results may vary.
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Very useful stuff, as usual. I'd give you a major credibility boost, but we all know how well that system worked out for the old forum :P
1. Who actually performed your surgery?
2. How much of an issue was the language barrier for you while in Beijing?
3. Do you suffer from hypertrophy of the calves? If so, have big calves made your legs stronger in any way?
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This thread is more helpful than almost anything I have seen from past LL vets on old forum .
It's funny how LL vets are hailed as the greatest things to happen since sliced bread, while they won't even bother to come back to their diaries to answer the many questions people have for them.
Medium Drink Of Water is doing the whole LL Forum community a great service!
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Very useful stuff, as usual. I'd give you a major credibility boost, but we all know how well that system worked out for the old forum :P
1. Who actually performed your surgery?
2. How much of an issue was the language barrier for you while in Beijing?
3. Do you suffer from hypertrophy of the calves? If so, have big calves made your legs stronger in any way?
1. Good question about the first surgery, actually. Their LL assembly line can do your operation almost immediately after you arrive in Beijing because it's their hospital and their operating room. The operating room was full of Chinese guys wearing surgical hats and masks and I didn't know who was who yet. Dr. Aimin Peng was probably the main surgeon for my 1st operation, but it's a team effort regardless and they do your surgery FAST. I know Dr. Peng was leading the team that performed my 2nd (frame removal) and 3rd (IM nail removal) surgeries because by that time I could recognize the doctors.
2. Not much of a problem. The biggest problem is communicating with the caretakers who are migrant peasants and don't speak any English at all. But you're only talking to them about food, water, toilet, washing hair, brushing teeth, etc. The rest of the staff members speak some degree of English, and the foreign liaison Wang Bei (Ronne) will translate if necessary. She almost always accompanied Dr. Peng on his rounds because his English isn't very good.
3. No, and I'm not sure I'd use the word suffering for that either. I wish it had happened to me. I think my endurance would probably be better with the larger muscles. Walking is fine but my legs get tired pretty quickly when doing more strenuous activities.
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Thanks again for your answers, mate. I apologize if I'm grilling you with questions. Knowing old forum trends though, I really don't know if I'll ever have the chance to get questions answered by a LL vet ever again, let alone one who went to Beijing, so here are a few more questions, if you don't mind.
1. How long did it take for your bones to feel strong and for marrow to come back after IM nail removal?
2. (Asked on behalf of the more ambitious/crazier lengtheners out there) After Dong Mei's successful 12cm LL stunt, I seem to see more and more people say they will shoot for ~10cm. Did you see this much in Beijing? Of the people that went for it, do you know about how many were successful and around how many actually recovered well?
3. Six years later, do you feel as though you are still recovering from LL, or do you think that you have stopped recovering and have either plateaued recovery wise or moved into improving your health beyond your "recovered" levels.
4. Do you feel that physiotherapy beyond the typically recommended walking, biking, and sandbagging is necessary for 7.5cm?
5. Did your IM nails trigger any metal detectors?
6. Do the Beijing frames lock the ankles in place to lengthen the Achilles' tendon? If so, is walking still manageable with level of restricted ankle motion caused by the frames?
7. Did the Beijing doctors affix each cut fibula to its corresponding tibia in one place or two? It's hard to tell from the X-rays in some patients' diaries.
8. Did the majority of patients who went home with IM nails, leave in wheelchairs (and are they provided by the hospital), walk with braces and crutches, or walk unaided?
9. Last and not least, did 3 inches feel like a major change in height to you, personally? This one's pretty subjective but I'd still love to hear your response.
Again, a great many thanks! You have no idea how much I appreciate this, and how helpful your responses may be to me and others considering LL in Beijing in the future. I seriously feel that this thread informed me as much as, if not more than, all the Beijing diaries on old forum combined.
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Thanks again for your answers, mate. I apologize if I'm grilling you with questions. Knowing old forum trends though, I really don't know if I'll ever have the chance to get questions answered by a LL vet ever again, let alone one who went to Beijing, so here are a few more questions, if you don't mind.
1. How long did it take for your bones to feel strong and for marrow to come back after IM nail removal?
2. (Asked on behalf of the more ambitious/crazier lengtheners out there) After Dong Mei's successful 12cm LL stunt, I seem to see more and more people say they will shoot for ~10cm. Did you see this much in Beijing? Of the people that went for it, do you know about how many were successful and around how many actually recovered well?
3. Six years later, do you feel as though you are still recovering from LL, or do you think that you have stopped recovering and have either plateaued recovery wise or moved into improving your health beyond your "recovered" levels.
4. Do you feel that physiotherapy beyond the typically recommended walking, biking, and sandbagging is necessary for 7.5cm?
5. Did your IM nails trigger any metal detectors?
6. Do the Beijing frames lock the ankles in place to lengthen the Achilles' tendon? If so, is walking still manageable with level of restricted ankle motion caused by the frames?
7. Did the Beijing doctors affix each cut fibula to its corresponding tibia in one place or two? It's hard to tell from the X-rays in some patients' diaries.
8. Did the majority of patients who went home with IM nails, leave in wheelchairs (and are they provided by the hospital), walk with braces and crutches, or walk unaided?
9. Last and not least, did 3 inches feel like a major change in height to you, personally? This one's pretty subjective but I'd still love to hear your response.
Again, a great many thanks! You have no idea how much I appreciate this, and how helpful your responses may be to me and others considering LL in Beijing in the future. I seriously feel that this thread informed me as much as, if not more than, all the Beijing diaries on old forum combined.
Awww... all this praise is gonna start going to my head. :)
1. I don't know how long it took for the marrow to come back. My bones were fully consolidated when the nails came out so strength wasn't an issue. All I had to do was recover from the soreness of the surgery (which did take a few weeks) and then I was feeling great. Make no mistake, that 3rd surgery is major surgery that's only minor in comparison to the first two.
2. Yes! Lots of people went in there with the 10cm goal. I even considered going for it. The clinic's sales pitch was (up to) 10cm in 4 months for $25,000 at that time, and you could stay longer for free if you needed to. Some got to 8, some got to 9, and some did end up doing the full 10. I don't know how any of them are doing long-term yet. I recently managed to get in touch with a girl who did 10cm. Once she gets back to me, and if she gives me permission, I'll let LL Forum how she's doing after 5 years. Perhaps I'll invite her here too if she's interested.
3. I thought I had plateaued a while ago, but in the last several months I started doing kickboxing exercises and yoga which took my fitness and recovery to another level. Now I'm not sure what my recovery potential is, but it's higher than I thought it was even six months ago.
4. I think it's adequate in the beginning since most PTs don't know anything about LL anyway. A few months after your 2nd surgery, I think PT can be helpful to address any specific problems you're having. That's how it was for me anyway. Maybe there's some PTs who are LL specialists and can do great things for you right away, but I don't know who they are. I had to just use the PTs who worked for my HMO anyway since money was so tight after the operation.
5. They never triggered any metal detectors.
6. In Beijing they have a spring-loaded heel attachment that lengthens the Achilles. You can adjust the tension on it to be really tight when you're in bed, then loosen it when you want to walk. I posted pics of it on this board, possibly in the clinic's thread in the doctor directory.
7. I seriously do not remember, and I don't have any of my old x-rays to check.
8. Everyone gets a brand new wheelchair included in the fee. Most people left in their wheelchairs, especially if they were leaving 2 weeks after their 2nd surgery, which is the minimum the clinic recommends. Some people chose to stay longer until they'd managed to get strong enough to leave with crutches. Only one idiot was walking around unaided, and he started doing it within a day or two after his 2nd surgery, against doctor's orders. Like I was saying in another thread, you can stand on a weight-bearing nail immediately, but that doesn't mean you should.
9. A thousand times yes! 3 inches changed my life. I am not even the same person who went into that hospital at 5'7.
If you have more questions, please don't be shy about asking them. Even stupid ones! I just love talking about LL and could do it all day, which is why my falling out with old forum was such a bummer. >:( I was so happy when this forum started up that I decided to do whatever I could to help it succeed and grow.
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Could you elaborate a bit on number nine? Can you date women you couldn't before now, for instance? Do attractive women show more interest in you with your new height?
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Yes and yes. At 5'7 it was like I didn't exist to some women. The prettier they were, the more invisible I was.
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Yes and yes. At 5'7 it was like I didn't exist to some women. The prettier they were, the more invisible I was.
Have anyone of them noticed you having longer legs than you were born with, if they saw you nked?
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Thanks. I guess it's moving abroad or getting LL for me unless I want to risk being forever alone, because my country's attractive women certainly don't seem to want me all that much. FML.
Have anyone of them noticed you having longer legs than you were born with, if they saw you nked?
I'm much shorter than my nation's height average and I have a beautiful girlfriend. My suggestion is for you to rely on your wits to get an attractive girlfriend, not height.. (who wants a girl who just wants you for your height anyway!?)
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I'm much shorter than my nation's height average and I have a beautiful girlfriend. My suggestion is for you to rely on your wits to get an attractive girlfriend, not height.. (who wants a girl who just wants you for your height anyway!?)
How much shorter? Great topic anyway, MDOW does a superb job at providing valuable information from his post-LL life.
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I'm in the 6th percentile of my country's height average, we're short buddies. ;D
I agree with everything you've said, it's possible that your soul-mate could be out there but she only overlooks you because she's taller than you by a few inches. LL definitely expands the very limited dating pool us short guys have.
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Guess who. You've already addressed so many questions I couldn't find answers to in other places, and the ones I have remaining are less of a priority compared to the others I had. But, since you've been so kind as to offer to answer even my more stupid questions, I was wondering:
1. The pictures you posted of your scars (or lack of them) are impressive. Where did you get them removed? Was it at the Guang Ji Hospital? If not, where did you get them removed, and what method did you use to remove them? Also, if you don't mind my asking, how much did this cost you?
2. As my username may suggest, sometimes I contemplate using LL, not only to reach average height, but to become tall. Being tall would be just awesome in so many ways (I often even dream about it lol), and since I have a long torso and broad shoulders, it may* be feasible without looking weird. Oh wait. I'm an adult. I don't want to look like T-Rex anymore. Broad shoulders mean that, with my wingspan currently only 4cm more than my height, if I were to gain more than a couple inches, my arms would look very short. Just when I thought hope was lost, I saw that the Guang Ji hospital offers humerus (upper arm) lengthening. I wonder if you've met anyone who's had this, or if you'd heard anything about it. If so (and even if not), what are your thoughts? Dr. Paley claims the humerus is the easiest bone to lengthen, but I'd rather get this done in Beijing rather than with a US doctor, if safe and possible. Of course, safety comes first, which is why I feel the need to ask this question.
3. You've already addressed your ability and confidence in jumping down, but how is your ability to jump up? Is jumping difficult now? About how high do you think you can jump?
A billion thanks. Really.
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Hey, glad to talk to an intelligent potential LLer with good questions about LL anytime! :)
1. I got them removed by a plastic surgeon in America. When I went back for my nail removal at Guang Ji I asked about it and they didn't want to do it, saying my scars weren't so bad. I took that to mean their scar removal ability was truly 2nd rate. At least they were honest about it though.
Gels/creams didn't do anything but at least they were cheap. Laser treatments were an expensive ripoff that gave me almost no improvement. The plastic surgeon I went to surgically excised the scars (cutting them out and stitching the non-scarred skin together.) That's the only way you're going to turn LL gashes into little white lines. Pinsites scars that are close together can't be excised at the same time; you have to wait several months or a year in between excisions, so it took multiple visits and surgeries.
I must have spent about $6000 on scar removal over the last few years but I think I could've gotten it done cheaper with different doctors and if I'd known what to do from the get-go. Just look for a plastic surgeon who specializes in operations like brachioplasty and tissue expansion and you'll be fine. A burn specialist would also be a great choice for surgery.
2. I saw one person who was getting his arms lengthened in Beijing, but he was a Chinese dwarf. I really don't know anything about arm lengthening. Most LLers I've met aren't interested in it and won't get it done even if their arms are shorter than they "should be" (whatever that really means) after LL. My advice is do your legs first and then decide if you really need it, because a lot of people decide they don't.
3. My head will go as high as it ever could when I jump, but my feet go about 3 inches less off the ground due to the longer legs. So that's pretty much what one would expect.
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Have anyone of them noticed you having longer legs than you were born with, if they saw you nked?
In addition to this - would you say getting LL is/was worth it at your original height simply to widen your dating pool, that is, being able to attract more (attractive) women?
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In addition to this - would you say getting LL is/was worth it at your original height simply to widen your dating pool, that is, being able to attract more (attractive) women?
LOL, actually no. Dr. Roger Li and I actually talked about this. He jokingly told me to just marry a Chinese girl instead of getting LL. Well, it's no longer a joke because my 5 months in Beijing made me only interested in Chinese girls. They don't care as much about physical appearance as western women do. I haven't dated any western girls since LL, although I can tell they'd be more interested in me.
My friend Kelly from Serbia would probably say yes to your question though. He never had the chance to catch yellow fever like I did.
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LOL, actually no. Dr. Roger Li and I actually talked about this. He jokingly told me to just marry a Chinese girl instead of getting LL. Well, it's no longer a joke because my 5 months in Beijing made me only interested in Chinese girls. They don't care as much about physical appearance as western women do. I haven't dated any western girls since LL, although I can tell they'd be more interested in me.
My friend Kelly from Serbia would probably say yes to your question though. He never had the chance to catch yellow fever like I did.
Haha, I see, thanks. I like Asians myself, and I get the feeling it's often mutual.
I don't mean to get too private with you, but I just wonder if you could answer this last one.. no worries if you won't.
Have anyone of them noticed you having longer legs than you were born with, if they saw you nked?
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Nobody has ever said anything about my legs looking weird, in any situation/context.
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Nobody has ever said anything about my legs looking weird, in any situation/context.
Do you find it cheaper buying pants now?
In the UK if you have a slim waist and long legs you can often get decent jeans and dress pants cheaper because these sizes rarely sell so end up in the sales heavily discounted, where as Mr 32"Waist 32"Leg has to pay full price.
This is a part joke.part serious question. Answer however you see fit. P.s. Grow that mustache back. I liked it.
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No, it's actually gotten more expensive for me as an American. >:( I have to buy the 32x32s and have the waists taken in because the selection of tall/skinny pants is so bad in the US.
I used to buy extra large boys' pants which fit me great. I kind of miss those days actually. Those were the ones that didn't sell well and got put on big discounts. :'(
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I haven't noticed ANY difference in my pants-size yet. I still need to fold them.
My waist is smaller than before and that's bad bc I'm at 17% fat or something now. 9% before.
The only thing I've noticed lately is my calf muscles has grown much bigger so my pants get stuck on them.
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Hey, i just had my frames removed yesterday. My ankle is sore as F%$k! Did u experience the same thing? I was surprised by this, the nail locking wasn't even half as bad as my ankle, i can't even move them!
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Just one of your ankles or both? I don't remember ankle pain being worse than the rest of my legs after my frame removal/nail locking surgery. Maybe ask your doc if anything happened in the OR with the ankle(s).
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Both of them, the sensation is exactly like letting the feet hang from the frames without support. (Those who did LON knows exactly what i mean) Its not painful but it was very uncomfortable, enough to interrupt my sleep. It feels like my feet are constantly sprained!
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Now that you mention it I think I do remember something like that with the feet/ankles. The 2nd and 3rd surgeries are definitely more traumatic than you'd expect. Once the body gets used to something, taking it out causes a reaction, I guess.
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Hah! thank you for that. I thought i was the only one. It drove me half mad last night. I really hope this gets better by the end of the week :-[
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Yeah, in Beijing they recommended a two week recovery period after frame removal. I just took it easy and got waited on by the staff there until it was time to leave.
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Hey MDOW,
How long was your stay in Beijing from start to finish?
Sorry if you already answered this.
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Unlike the vets on old forum , I don't mind talking to new people even if they have old questions.
My airline tickets in and out of there were exactly 5 months apart.
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2. Rate of lengthening was highly variable. In the beginning they tell everyone to lengthen .66mm per day, and they wait for x-rays to see how good your bone growth is before telling you to lengthen more or less each day. My bone growth was excellent so in the end they were telling me to lengthen 1.33mm per day.
if you take look at my x-ray could tell if my bone growing excellent as yours? cuz I really want do more than 1mm per day.. My Dr said that the callus is good but he warning me to increase the number of the turn... although that I feel my body can handle doing 1.5mm in tibia and 2 mm in femur ...
Also I have stupid question... why there is consolidation phase?
I mean when we start the distraction the bone is start growing right? so the consolidation actually started in the distraction phase..
so suppose there is a guy who is aiming to gain 3cm and he is doing 1mm/day
that will take from him 1 month to reach his goal, and "suppose again" 2 months more to consolidate
so if he did 0.33mm/day wouldn't he will reach 3cm and his bone will be consolidate in the same amount of time I mean 3months !!?
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if you take look at my x-ray could tell if my bone growing excellent as yours? cuz I really want do more than 1mm per day.. My Dr said that the callus is good but he warning me to increase the number of the turn... although that I feel my body can handle doing 1.5mm in tibia and 2 mm in femur ...
Also I have stupid question... why there is consolidation phase?
I mean when we start the distraction the bone is start growing right? so the consolidation actually started in the distraction phase..
so suppose there is a guy who is aiming to gain 3cm and he is doing 1mm/day
that will take from him 1 month to reach his goal, and "suppose again" 2 months more to consolidate
so if he did 0.33mm/day wouldn't he will reach 3cm and his bone will be consolidate in the same amount of time I mean 3months !!?
Post your latest x-rays here and I'll give you my opinion.
You're right that the bone starts to fill in during the distraction phase, but if you distract too slowly you'll get premature consolidation, and the bone will have to be re-broken if you want to continue lengthening.
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Post your latest x-rays here and I'll give you my opinion.
You're right that the bone starts to fill in during the distraction phase, but if you distract too slowly you'll get premature consolidation, and the bone will have to be re-broken if you want to continue lengthening.
OK I'll post it tmw ..
hmm.. ok but they could prevent the reunion by doing 1mm/day tell they reached 1cm.. then they'll start to slower the rate..
what I want to say that most if not all the LL patients take at least 2 months in consolidation phase they could prevent make the consolidation phase as such as long time by slowing the rate.. so what point finishing the distraction earlier and leaving 4 or 5 cm gap between the bones then taking lot of time in consolidation ?
the total time theoretical should be the same but it will make huge different in term of the feel of the pain ... did you get my point?
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One of the reasons is so a fixed internal nail can be put in after distraction, so you're not in fixators for 9 months. As for people who are doing external only, I think that's a very good question but only Franz on this forum would have the knowledge to answer it.
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humm ok thanks MDOW
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Hey mdow, while you are in Beijing. Do many ppl getting complication, etc? Is it minor/ major? Please explain, thx.
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Some people did get complications. The most common one was pinsite infections. Nobody got a serious infection though; they were always minor and treated with antibiotics. I think it had something to do with poor diet and lack of sleep weakening peoples' immune systems. I never got an infection. I was one of the few patients who was able to get enough sleep, and I always forced myself to eat even if I wasn't hungry. The only other patient I know who never got a pinsite infection also ate and slept well.
The Ilizarov frame is very adjustible so nobody had any severe alignment problems that the doctors couldn't fix. One guy ended up with one foot pointed slightly inward; that was the worst case I knew of and it wasn't that bad.
Another patient had such poor bone growth that he had to stop lengthening way short of his goal, I think at 4cm because he was in danger of non-union. That was most likely genetic though.
Two people I met had issues with their internal nail after the operation. One of them had his problem discovered by the doctors before he left, so they fixed it (but he had to stay longer than he expected). The other didn't have any problems until going back home, then had to go back to Beijing to have a correction.
Those are all the complications I can remember out of about 30 people, so they did a pretty good job while I was there.
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Wow, thanks for your info mdow. ;)
Im 167cm with 65 kg, 22 yo. How many cm of lengthening so u advise for me?(tibia).
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My advice is don't have a plan in the beginning except just to get taller. Start lengthening and then decide when it's time to stop. Some people do great and might even regret not doing more. Some people can't reach their goals because of too much pain/complications and have to stop. Some people keep going just to get to their goal when they shouldn't, and then they regret it forever.
Ideally, you don't want to be any of those people.
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Some people can't reach their goals because of too much pain/complications and have to stop.
Hey mdow, what do you mean by that? Thanks for the reply.
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Out of the approximately 30 LL patients I've met, two quit. One guy had to stop because of poor bone growth. Another was a wimp who couldn't handle the pain or being away from home, and went crying back home to mommy after less than 2cm.
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Hi mdow, thanks for the reply. I want to ask you what is ballerina foot? How it is occur? And how it is treated? Thanks again ;D
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Ballerina foot is when your toes point like a ballet dancer because your tendons are shorter than the bone after LL. Almost everyone gets minor ballerina foot, which is treated by walking and stretching exercises. Severe ballerina foot is treated with tendon lengthening surgery.
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Hey MDOW. I had a few more questions about your LL experience that I felt like stopping by and asking. I think I'll ask them now, before I accumulate too many in my mind :D :
1. You mentioned that your legs now get more sore after long walks. Does this new soreness usually begin to occur during the walking or strictly afterwards?
2. Despite the soreness, are you still able to walk (and run) as quickly as you could pre-LL if you put forth enough effort? If so, can you maintain your pre-LL speeds for the same duration of time as you could pre-op?
3. How cautious must you be with your legs post-LL and recovery? Are there activities that you know you need to stay away from on account of having undergone LL?
4. Have you developed any psychological barriers that make you afraid of any activities, say running, jumping, skiing, etc? I know that personally, after once sustaining an upper body injury as a kid, whilst skateboarding, I have had a weird psychological block that prevents me from being comfortable or relaxed on a skateboard, even though I fully recovered from my injury and am, physically speaking, perfectly capable of using one again.
5. You mentioned that you do yoga. How was your balance affected by LL?
6. How long did you keep your IM nails in your legs for? How limiting were they to your day to day life? How did you explain to people that you couldn't run or take part in activities that were unsafe to do with the IM nail?
7. Are you still on familiar terms any people at all who knew you prior to LL, and somehow didn't find out about your surgery? If so, do they notice your new height? Do you tell them the truth of use a cover-up story? If its the latter, what is it?
8. Can you elaborate on the nature of your loss of agility (mentioned on page 1) and how it has (or hasn't) affected you?
Thanks so much for your answers. You are such an asset to this site and write very well. I hope you’re having an awesome weekend! Nice profile avatar BTW.
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Hey MDOW. I had a few more questions about your LL experience that I felt like stopping by and asking. I think I'll ask them now, before I accumulate too many in my mind :D :
1. You mentioned that your legs now get more sore after long walks. Does this new soreness usually begin to occur during the walking or strictly afterwards?
2. Despite the soreness, are you still able to walk (and run) as quickly as you could pre-LL if you put forth enough effort? If so, can you maintain your pre-LL speeds for the same duration of time as you could pre-op?
3. How cautious must you be with your legs post-LL and recovery? Are there activities that you know you need to stay away from on account of having undergone LL?
4. Have you developed any psychological barriers that make you afraid of any activities, say running, jumping, skiing, etc? I know that personally, after once sustaining an upper body injury as a kid, whilst skateboarding, I have had a weird psychological block that prevents me from being comfortable or relaxed on a skateboard, even though I fully recovered from my injury and am, physically speaking, perfectly capable of using one again.
5. You mentioned that you do yoga. How was your balance affected by LL?
6. How long did you keep your IM nails in your legs for? How limiting were they to your day to day life? How did you explain to people that you couldn't run or take part in activities that were unsafe to do with the IM nail?
7. Are you still on familiar terms any people at all who knew you prior to LL, and somehow didn't find out about your surgery? If so, do they notice your new height? Do you tell them the truth of use a cover-up story? If its the latter, what is it?
8. Can you elaborate on the nature of your loss of agility (mentioned on page 1) and how it has (or hasn't) affected you?
Thanks so much for your answers. You are such an asset to this site and write very well. I hope you’re having an awesome weekend! Nice profile avatar BTW.
1. It begins during the walks but goes away pretty quickly, actually.
2. I'm able to walk as quickly as I could before as long as I take more steps. My stride was actually shortened because of the tibia lengthening. Femur lengthening will make your strides longer. It's all about the ratios. Running isn't affected since the stride is different. I can still run quite fast at top speed, but I'm not sure if it's faster or slower as I could before. I've never timed myself or figured out the MPH I could run either before or after surgery.
3. I don't need to be cautious about any activities. The bones are strong and I don't worry about breaking them any more than I would have before LL.
4. I'm not sure if this was psychological or if there really was a physical component, but for 5 years after surgery I couldn't stand to have a blanket on my feet at night. The weight of it on my feet bothered me so much. I bought a blanket support like they had at the hospital and only recently stopped using it.
5. Balance got quite a bit worse with the longer legs. Getting taller without getting wider at the base, that's to be expected. The Warrior 3 pose is especially difficult since you're balancing on one leg while holding up the other one.
6. The IM nails were in my legs for 13 months after frame removal. They weren't limiting. I did weightlifting during the consolidation phase and even used a leg press machine with them in. It took about a year for the bone to fully consolidate. I often didn't notice them, and even ran a couple of times with them in. I never ran marathons or anything like that in the first place, so having to tell people I couldn't do something because of the IM nails never came up.
7. Yes! There were a few people whose ears weren't reached by my mother's big mouth about the surgery. They noticed I was taller and believed me when I told them I grew. The younger you do the surgery the better, since that'll be a believable explanation.
8. The loss of agility is really about having longer legs without the bigger muscles that would usually go with legs this long. I just can't move them around as quickly as I used to be able to. My kicks are especially slow and laborious.
Haha thanks for all the kind words. I'm glad to help out potential LLers with all the info I know, so keep the questions coming if you have them. That's not just directed toward Tall by the way, it's for everyone here. :)
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I noticed your signature now says you did LON. I thought the Guang Ji hospital only offered LATN, or at least gave LATN by default. How come you ended up getting LON? Was this their preferred method when you did your lengthening? Do you see any particular advantage to one method over the other? I have read that multiple LATN patients experience "bone popping", which is when the broken bone somehow pokes against inside of the skin, despite the frame which supposedly holds it in place. I guess LON would prevent this, but would make axial corrections more difficult, if not impossible. What are your thoughts?
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How long did it take to get back to normal after IMnail-removal?
Does your split knee tendon still hurt?
My knee tendon aches all the time.
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I noticed your signature now says you did LON. I thought the Guang Ji hospital only offered LATN, or at least gave LATN by default. How come you ended up getting LON? Was this their preferred method when you did your lengthening? Do you see any particular advantage to one method over the other? I have read that multiple LATN patients experience "bone popping", which is when the broken bone somehow pokes against inside of the skin, despite the frame which supposedly holds it in place. I guess LON would prevent this, but would make axial corrections more difficult, if not impossible. What are your thoughts?
Yes, LON was the default in 2007. I don't see any significant advantages between LON/LATN. When you put the nail in makes little difference. I don't think it prevented corrections since it was only fixed on one side of the osteotomy cut and had a smaller diameter than a lengthening nail. With internal lengtheners, corrections and lengthening are indeed separate surgeries/processes. We had a guy who was going to do internals in the U.S. but came to Beijing because the correction he needed and lengthening he wanted could be done together faster.
How long did it take to get back to normal after IMnail-removal?
Does your split knee tendon still hurt?
My knee tendon aches all the time.
Just a few weeks. I was almost back to normal with the nails in.
Yes my knees still hurt. That'll forever be the legacy of that psychiatric snafu in Serbia, since I would've gotten external-only with Dr. Mitkovic otherwise.
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So I guess our knees will forever ache. :-X
Well that sucks for sure.....
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So I guess our knees will forever ache. :-X
Well that sucks for sure.....
No way to be sure if that will be the case, but seems like it's quite normal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod
"Long-term complications a patient may develop after the implantation of an intramedullary rod may include persistent or permanent knee pain (present in 73.2% of patients studied), atrophy of the calf muscle (27.3%), atrophy of the quadriceps (27.3%), and arthritis (35.4%).[5]"
It's kind of screwed up if LON/LATN patients aren't being informed of these stats beforehand (if the surgeon is aware of it, that is). 73.2% is the MAJORITY of patients.
Source study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282
CONCLUSIONS:
At a median 14 years after tibial nailing of isolated tibial fractures, patients' function is comparable to population norms, but objective and subjective evaluation shows persistent sequelae which are not insignificant. This study is the first to describe the long-term functional outcomes after tibial shaft fractures treated with intramedullary nailing nails. It may allow surgeons to better inform patients on the expected long-term function after intramedullary nailing of a tibia fracture. It may also prove useful when comparing intramedullary nailing nailing to other treatment techniques.
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I asked this in another thread but perhaps I should have asked this in this one:
I've got a question that I have been googling and havent been able to get a solid answer for.
My height is 155cm with an armspan of 158cm. If I were to follow Dr Franz's advice (which is to lengthen 5 (or 6?) cm in each part as a maximum), then I would be 165/167 cm with a 158cm armspan.
Would this be painfully obvious? Obviously not Apo level of obvious, but still very obvious?
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No way to be sure if that will be the case, but seems like it's quite normal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod
It's kind of screwed up if LON/LATN patients aren't being informed of these stats beforehand (if the surgeon is aware of it, that is). 73.2% is the MAJORITY of patients.
Source study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282
Yeah, it sucks. >:( But as long as I keep doing my kickboxing exercises, the knees don't feel that bad. If there were no other way I'd still do it the way I did.
My height is 155cm with an armspan of 158cm. If I were to follow Dr Franz's advice (which is to lengthen 5 (or 6?) cm in each part as a maximum), then I would be 165/167 cm with a 158cm armspan.
Would this be painfully obvious? Obviously not Apo level of obvious, but still very obvious?
I actually looked pretty goofy with my long arms and long neck before LL so I've never researched proportions that much. After doing 3 inches my armspan and height are equal now. On top of that, I think Apo doesn't look that bad, so I'm really not the guy to ask about proportions.
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MDoW,
How was your sex life affected after LL? Did you have any problems with girls of certain heights or positions? I ask because I'm a little worried how LL is going to affect my sex life with my gf! She's already about 4 inches shorter than me and my plan is lengthen around 5 inches, so we'll have a real noticeable gap between us. Did you notice any different between sex pre-LL and sex post-LL?
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No difference.
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hi MDOW ,
thanks for helping alot of people regarding valuable information about LL , i really appreciate your contribution from my heart.
i want to ask something about ballerina , how long does it take to walk without any support ? like how long does it take for you to
get you ankle flexiblity to 110 or 120 degree .
thanks
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hi MDOW ,
thanks for helping alot of people regarding valuable information about LL , i really appreciate your contribution from my heart.
i want to ask something about ballerina , how long does it take to walk without any support ? like how long does it take for you to
get you ankle flexiblity to 110 or 120 degree .
thanks
It varies from person to person. My roommate and I finished LL at about the same time. A few days before we left, Dr. Li came to visit us and said his knees were better than mine, but my ankles were better than his, and that I'd be able to walk sooner because of it.
One patient in Beijing was walking, without support, the day after his frame removal even though the doctors told him not to. I was very conservative so it was several weeks before I started doing that. Even though you can, it's a bad idea to do it until the titanium screws holding the IM nails in place have fused to the bones.
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After frame removal, how long did it took you to be able to walk properly again?
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I think it was about 2-3 months before I was walking properly/normally so nobody would notice something was wrong.
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Ok ty :)
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Just out of curiosity can you remember roughly what the distribution of starting heights was like for patients, particularly the international patients. Were you one of the tallest or around average? and were you strongly discouraged from LL due to your starting height which is probably average for a Chinese male? I read in your diary about the lady who said your height was fine, was that the only time someone tried to discourage you based on your height? Were there any patients with surprising high starting heights? (175cm+)
Thanks so much for this invaluable thread.
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Probably 2/3 of the patients or more were between 5'5 and 5'8, hoping to reach average height in their countries.
Most of the rest were between 5'2 and 5'4.
Three guys came in at 5'9 wanting to get to 6'. Some people didn't like the fact that they were there.
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Is it ok if I ask you in here? Maybe Dameon can move it if it's inappropriate.
Why did you feel like you needed to remove the IM-nail? It is double trauma to your knees, and a serious kind too.
My doctor here in Sweden tells me I don't need to take the nails out and it's a reinforcement to my shins.
Did the screws in your knee bother you or any other?
Can you run 10kilometers and sprint like Usain Bolt? Does your knees ache for like 2 days if you do?
Tight ankle problems?
Sorry to bother you but I just want to know what I should look forward to....
I can now press real 100kilos in the leg press machine, but my knees ache for 2-3 days after I do it.
I can't run. :(
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Is it ok if I ask you in here? Maybe Dameon can move it if it's inappropriate.
Why did you feel like you needed to remove the IM-nail? It is double trauma to your knees, and a serious kind too.
My doctor here in Sweden tells me I don't need to take the nails out and it's a reinforcement to my shins.
Did the screws in your knee bother you or any other?
Can you run 10kilometers and sprint like Usain Bolt? Does your knees ache for like 2 days if you do?
Tight ankle problems?
Sorry to bother you but I just want to know what I should look forward to....
I can now press real 100kilos in the leg press machine, but my knees ache for 2-3 days after I do it.
I can't run. :(
I do think this belongs in the MDOW questions thread, but I'll respond here and Dameon can move it.
It was standard procedure to remove the nails at the Beijing Institute. I know in the west they like to leave IM nails in because it's less risky than having a second surgery, but in Beijing you take the risk with their experienced surgeon and try to go for the best possible result. I never really thought of not removing it.
The screws didn't bother me, but sometimes I felt some kind of internal pressure/tension like the bone and the nail were fighting each other for which angle the leg would have. This was especially noticeable when climbing ladders for some reason. My bone was 100% consolidated before that started happening though.
I haven't tried to run 10km ever in my life. I can sprint fine, but I rarely do it. My knees don't hurt afterward. I never tried sprinting with the nails in; I always just took it easy. The most I did was jog short distances before I got them out.
When I did leg presses with the nails in, my knees always felt better rather than worse, and the same was true for any exercise. That goes for without the nails too.
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Do you think that anyone got lower quality of care and treatment than other patients or descrimination of any kind at the Guang Ji Hospital as the result of any factor (country of origin, starting height of 5'9+, political/religious identity etc)? I am from the United States and don't know if all Chinese would take too kindly to that. Happy new year by the way!
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Do you think that anyone got lower quality of care and treatment than other patients or descrimination of any kind at the Guang Ji Hospital as the result of any factor (country of origin, starting height of 5'9+, political/religious identity etc)? I am from the United States and don't know if all Chinese would take too kindly to that. Happy new year by the way!
They have a new religion in China, and it's called foreigner worship. Especially American or British, because that signifies international power/status. The lighter your hair/skin the better, also. Several Chinese people wanted to take their picture with me just because I'm white.
The people who are discriminated against there are the local Chinese patients.
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Thanks for all the info Medium drink of water,
Just have one big question for you :)
You say that you have lost agility in your legs, and you think the reason is because you have a longer bone now but the same muscle mass you did earlier but stretched further to match the new bone length. That sounds logical.
However ive read on some FAQ on old forum and i believe this forum as well, and heard many people claiming that the muscles, nerves and tendons will "grow" when you do LL, only it does it more slowly as the body regenerates the soft tissue slower than the bone. So at first the soft tissue is stretched as it cannot regenerate at the same speed of the bone, but eventually new soft tissue would be created to match the new bone lenght.
Considering how your own body have healed, do you believe that info above to be false? or does it depend on the individual? (i know some people claimed their calf muscles experienced hypertrophy and grew in size larger than they were before LL)
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I think it depends on the person. I'm skinny and have trouble putting on weight. I might've been rejected entirely if I'd gone to Guichet since he insists on many patients putting on extra muscle before he'll operate.
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1.Have there been people who have aborted the operation after feeling to much pain in their legs?
2. How fast did the time seem to go. What i mean is time and days.
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1.Have there been people who have aborted the operation after feeling to much pain in their legs?
2. How fast did the time seem to go. What i mean is time and days.
1. Yes! There was a guy who went home after not even 2cm because of the pain.
2. Once I'd gotten into a nice routine, the time went by pretty quickly. If you have a schedule and stick to it, the days will pass quicker. Here's one that worked for me:
8:00 get up and eat breakfast
9:00 brush teeth then take a nap
11:00 internet
1:00 eat lunch
1:30 videogames
3:00 internet
4:00 movie
6:00 eat dinner then go out and socialize
10:00 internet
10:30 bedtime
That was approximately what I did every day towards the end.
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8:00 get up and eat breakfast
9:00 brush teeth then take a nap
11:00 internet
1:00 eat lunch
1:30 videogames
3:00 internet
4:00 movie
6:00 eat dinner then go out and socialize
10:00 internet
10:30 bedtime
That was approximately what I did every day towards the end.
Wow, if it weren't for the pain involved, that would sound to me like a pretty nice and relaxing, albeit perhaps painfully uneventful, life. How often did you exercise, and what kinds of exercises did you have to do? Was the relative isolation minimal enough to keep most of the patients from going cuckoo? I've read your diary (I admit I check for updates almost daily), and sometimes wonder if more people didn't become a little depressed and weird after being crippled and stuck in China so long. Did mummy have issues before LL, or did the LL experience mess with his mind pretty bady?
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Also, did anyone try lengthening at home, or at least going home with frames on? If so, how did they fare?
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Medium Drink Of Water,
All in all i feel that it all was a positive experience..almost to good to be true.
But can you tell us about the dark side of the trip. Just one of those days where everything went wrong.
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Wow, if it weren't for the pain involved, that would sound to me like a pretty nice and relaxing, albeit perhaps painfully uneventful, life. How often did you exercise, and what kinds of exercises did you have to do? Was the relative isolation minimal enough to keep most of the patients from going cuckoo? I've read your diary (I admit I check for updates almost daily), and sometimes wonder if more people didn't become a little depressed and weird after being crippled and stuck in China so long. Did mummy have issues before LL, or did the LL experience mess with his mind pretty bady?
The memories of the pain and misery fade and I'm left looking back on a really relaxing 5-month vacation sometimes. ;D No responsibilities, no obligations, it was like being a kid again in some ways.
For exercise I'd do leg lifts, ankle flexes, standing, and walking. I didn't exercise regularly though, due to problems with my knees. I'll make sure to include the details about the complications and what I could and couldn't do because of them in my future Patient Experience entries.
Most people had roommates so we weren't totally isolated, but a lot of people did end up going a little bit cuckoo, including me. The locals called it shen jing bing. Some turned it inward and got depressed and wanted to be isolated, some turned it outward and started fighting and causing mischief (that was me), and some fit in both categories at different points during their LL. I'm pretty sure Mummy had issues before coming, but I can't be 100% sure since he was already there when I arrived and I didn't get to know him until the middle of my LL journey.
Also, did anyone try lengthening at home, or at least going home with frames on? If so, how did they fare?
Yeah, the guy who quit after less than 2cm went home with his frames on. I was a 2007 patient and he was a 2008 patient, so I actually first met him when I was there for my internal nail removal. We were both there for the same reason. He was mostly consolidated so his frames and one of the nails were removed at that time. I haven't met or heard of anyone leaving and lengthening a bunch, then coming back.
Medium Drink Of Water,
All in all i feel that it all was a positive experience..almost to good to be true.
But can you tell us about the dark side of the trip. Just one of those days where everything went wrong.
Near-constant knee issues, difficulty getting to and from the toilet, staff not answering the hospital phone when I needed them on many occasions, hospital filth, getting in fights with other patients, getting in fights with the staff, getting betrayed by my so-called girlfriend... it's all coming in future chapters of Fear and Lengthening in Beijing.
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Near-constant knee issues, difficulty getting to and from the toilet, staff not answering the hospital phone when I needed them on many occasions, hospital filth, getting in fights with other patients, getting in fights with the staff, getting betrayed by my so-called girlfriend... it's all coming in future chapters of Fear and Lengthening in Beijing.
You seem to be an advocate for Beijing. Did you met someone there who has created an everlasting good impression for you? Like a female nurse or a Chinese stranger?
"betrayed by my so-called gf" lol.. that sounds familiar. Can't wait to read it!
I'm also working on my chapter 2 for my LL diary.
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You seem to be an advocate for Beijing. Did you met someone there who has created an everlasting good impression for you? Like a female nurse or a Chinese stranger?
"betrayed by my so-called gf" lol.. that sounds familiar. Can't wait to read it!
I'm also working on my chapter 2 for my LL diary.
Wang Bei. :-* ;)
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Hey mdow I have a few questions if you don't mind answering.
I have similar starting measurement's to you and am still weighing
up whether to do tibs or femurs.
Since I may only do one ll surgery in leaning towards tibs as too long
femurs just look weird. What is the length of your tibias
compared to your femur before and after your surgery? If your tibias become as long as your femurs
does it cause permanent problems.
Im aware after reading talks diary on old forum that quite a few ll patients
have knee problems after just doing femurs.
Do you believe that it is going outside the range of normal tib and femur ratios
that causes knee problems?
Also what is your opinion on doing precise 2 on tibias?
Finally would you ever take a girlfriend along for support while doing ll.
Many thanks
theuprising
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I agree with you that overly long femurs look kind of weird. People are used to seeing high knees due to shoes but nobody's used to seeing low knees.
My tibias and femurs are both approximately 18 inches now. So my original femur:tibia ratio would've been 6:5. Professor Xia said most short people have disproportionately short tibias but that wasn't the case with me. I almost ended up doing femurs but he said that tibias would be okay as long as I didn't pass a 1:1 ratio.
Could you tell me which old forum patients did only femurs and have knee problems as a result? I'd like to read about that but I don't check old forum regularly. The only precaution Professor Xia gave me was not to make the tibias longer than the femurs, but perhaps that was because I was doing tibias and the too long femur information wouldn't have been relevant to me.
I don't know if going outside a normal femur:tibia ratio is what causes knee problems or not. My guess is that it would make you walk funny - too long tibias would shorten your stride too much while too long femurs would lengthen it too much. That may be a cause of knee problems. My knee sensitivity is right where the patellar tendon is so I'm leaning toward the IM nail surgery as the cause of my knee issues, but that doesn't mean LLers can't get knee issues in other ways too.
I don't have any opinion on Precise since that was never an option in 2007. My knowledge of the new devices isn't very good.
No way, I'd never take a girl along with me. LL is about going away a short man and coming back a new man. It's a journey of personal growth and change best taken alone in my opinion. Maybe you'll meet a nice girl who's also doing LL while you're there. Or a not so nice girl like I did. :'(
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It was tall who had to do tibia surgery as he
had made his femurs too long with dr betz, I believe
he lengthened 11cm femur and then had to do 6.5 cm
in tibias to prevent arthritis in his knees.
After this he advocated only doing a max of 7.5 cm on any
limb segment.
I will have to check with the doctor I do LL with thanks for
clearing up what ratio not to pass. I find it hard to believe some
people did 10cm on tibia and would imagine that there would
be serious recovery problems as a result.
It makes me glad to know someone with a similar height and weight
did this surgery to the lengthening limits I want to still has good proportions
and is really enjoying his new life. Sucks about that girl hope you have
found someone better.
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Hello everyone! I am new to this forum even I am visiting it for a while, just like old forum. U can't imagine how grateful I'm to all your posts and writings. Just to introduce myself shortly. I'm 26, male, 169cm. As my nickname says all I want is 4cm added to my height.
I contacted dr. Betz (he replied but it's sooo expensive - 50 000 euros and as I can see from others he doesn't do his job properly even for that price). I also read from your posts that dr. Guichet is number one in setting the price so I have to remove him from my list. The third one who is interesting to me is dr. Mitkovic from Serbia. I am Croatian so we are neighbours and it seems as a best option if I sum all the things written about him on forums; price, experience, great results.
Is there any patient here on LL forum who passed everything from operation to back-to-normal-life phase? If there is someone could he upload photos and write smth about it? Btw, I am an athlete - small one but still an athlete :) and as I said all I want is 4cm more to my height. What do u think, should I do it on femurs or tibias? If I go with dr. Mitkovic should I take external or internal method? I won't hurry going back home and for sure I won't lift heavy weighs immediately after the surgery so I'll take time for recovering.
I know all of u answered these type of questions hundreds of time but remember u were LL noob just like me so please help me.
Once again ty so much for sharing your experience.
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I'm finished with LL and currently writing all about it. It's not even half finished yet, but my LL experience is here:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=84.0
My 1st choice was external tibiae with Dr. Mitkovic. His 9300 Euro fee is very reasonable for Serbia. Everything there is approximately 1/4 the price of the US so he's definitely not jacking up his prices to get extra money from foreigners. Externals are cheaper and less invasive so that's why they were my choice, but you can live a more normal life while lengthening with intenrals.
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Hi Medium. I already read every single word u wrote and I'm impressed as everyone is. Ty for your time and advices. I sent an e-mail two days ago to dr. Mitkovic but he didn't respond yet. I hope he still does cosmetic LL surgeries and I wrote to him if it is necessary I'll come to Serbia for consultation.
Medium are u still in contact with that guy called Jungle u met in Serbia? How is he doing? Is there any photo of before and after? I mean even if I want to gain some extra cm I also don't want to ruin my body by someone who doesn't care about his patients (like that idiot from Ukraine who mutilated poor guy from Canada; I read about it on old forum). Is it ok to be a bit more cautious than usual?
Do u think dr. Mitkovic will answer my mail? Ty.
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Dr. Mitkovic still does cosmetic LL but only a limited number of cases per year. He didn't reply to several of my emails in 2007 but when I got there, he remembered what I'd written. If you can go to Serbia, I think that's definitely the best way to get his attention since he gets a lot of emails and doesn't respond to most of them.
I'm not in contact with Jungle anymore. He and I had a fight on old forum after I left Serbia. Jungle posted quite a few pics of himself on old forum that are probably still in his diary. Dr. Mitkovic cares about his patients and has become more conservative after dealing with crazy patients like Serbtips and Jungle. The maximum gains he's offering are lower and the number of people he takes is fewer than in the past.
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Great! U r right, I have to go to Nis and talk to him personally and see what he can do with my legs
Btw, I've played soccer for 19 years and my legs go a bit like letter "o". Could that present a problem in lengthening my legs?
What will take more time to recover? External, internal? Tibias, femurs?
Ty.
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Your legs could probably be straightened in addition to the lengthening; you should ask the doctor about it. I don't know which surgery gives you the fastest recovery time.
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Do you think 5-6cm in tibias (LON) is possible in 2-3 months?
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Maybe, if you have no complications, 5cm in 3 months could be done. But you'll probably have complications like everyone does.
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I dont know if you can answer this question since I think you did the whole lengthening phase at the clinic, but id like to get your input still :P
But my visa wont last for the entire lengthening phase assuming i lengthen 1 mm/day, because my health insurance only lasted until the first of april and I didnt have time to renew it for the visa application.
However the Doctor has told me that they encourage lengthening at home in their program, after minimum 5 days at the hospital after surgery.
I intend to stay for most of the lengthening phase but some of it i will have to lengthen at home unless i go faster than 1 mm/day which might be too risky.
My question then is, if you lengthen at home, and the number of turns is unreliable for how much length you gain (due to pinbending even though pinbending happens mostly at the beginning of Lengthening phase) then i would need to schedule an x.ray with another ortopedic in my homecountry.
But lets say I count the number of turns I need so i know which day i should be at my desired height, then i would have to have my x-ray very close to that date so i can confirm it, because otherwise i risk premature consolidation if i stop turning and then if i didnt lengthen enough i cant compensate for it anymore since im in my homecountry.
I realize i can measure my standing height but even that is unreliable because of spine compression, better to measure the gap through x-ray. How much risk is there for premature consolidation? If i follow a schedule of turning that my doctor gives me, then it shouldnt start to consolidate until i stop turning right? also how long after i stop turning until it will start to consolidate and i cant turn more?
I realize that these are questions i will have to ask my doctor when i get there, but its still worth a try to ask here :) thank you in any case.
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It'll take months after you're done turning before your bones will consolidate. Just be sure to get regular x-rays and send them to your doctor, because that's how almost every LL problem is identified.
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It'll take months after you're done turning before your bones will consolidate. Just be sure to get regular x-rays and send them to your doctor, because that's how almost every LL problem is identified.
Yeah that is true but how come the risk of premature consolidation is quite common during lengthening phase if that is the case? (maybe im mistaken and its not common, but still it has happened for some patients) Im afraid that will happen if i lengthen away from the clinic, as the doctor wont be available to solve the problem :-\
And also non union is a risk but i guess that is even less likely to happen, as i will take supplements and the fact that im young so should heal callus faster than average.
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The closer together the bone segments are, the quicker they'll consolidate. You're not going to get premature consolidation at the end when you have a big gap that needs to fill in. It happens at the beginning when people have a small gap.
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The closer together the bone segments are, the quicker they'll consolidate. You're not going to get premature consolidation at the end when you have a big gap that needs to fill in. It happens at the beginning when people have a small gap.
Okey sounds good :D Then overall is your opinion about lengthening at home (at least the last part of the lengthening phase) that it is quite safe to do?
Thank you for all the info!
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Do you, after 7 years, still have knee pain? on what scale is it (1-10)
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Okey sounds good :D Then overall is your opinion about lengthening at home (at least the last part of the lengthening phase) that it is quite safe to do?
Thank you for all the info!
Personally I wouldn't do it since complications could happen at any time, and periodic adjustments need to be made to the fixators.
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Do you, after 7 years, still have knee pain? on what scale is it (1-10)
Yes, my knees still bother me sometimes. It ranges from 0-4 depending on what I'm doing. Kneeling is the worst.
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Personally I wouldn't do it since complications could happen at any time, and periodic adjustments need to be made to the fixators.
With complications you mean like severe pain and infections? :P
And what do you mean with periodic adjustments? If that is necessary why would they even allow patients to lengthen at home? ???
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With complications you mean like severe pain and infections? :P
And what do you mean with periodic adjustments? If that is necessary why would they even allow patients to lengthen at home? ???
Adjustments are needed if you develop a discrepancy between your gap sizes, or if your legs become misaligned. Those can be fixed at the end but it's easier to nip them in the bud.
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Hi i'm sorry people, i seem to be having a big confusion here, Did Apo gain 6 inches on just his TIBS? OR did he like break his 6 inch gain into femur + tibs? I mean, i think i just red on reddit that he had it done on just his tibs?!
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Hi i'm sorry people, i seem to be having a big confusion here, Did Apo gain 6 inches on just his TIBS? OR did he like break his 6 inch gain into femur + tibs? I mean, i think i just red on reddit that he had it done on just his tibs?!
No, he didn't do 6 inches on his tibiae alone.
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No, he didn't do 6 inches on his tibiae alone.
Oh i see, so could someone please tell me exactly what he got?
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Oh i see, so could someone please tell me exactly what he got?
11 cm on tibs
9.9 cm on femur
total around 21 cm.
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11 cm on tibs
9.9 cm on femur
total around 21 cm.
Oh right Thank you very much. Amm one question, how come he did tibiae lengthening more than femurs?
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Proportion (his own proportion).
Oh right Thank you very much. Amm one question, how come he did tibiae lengthening more than femurs?
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hi again
I have question, and yes it is again about the callus
my last x-ray shows that the callus in my both tibia better than the femurs
when I asked the Dr he said cuz the femur has a lot of muscles that's why in the x-ray it wont show much callus, but both your tibia and femur has the same amount of the callus.
2days later I asked Dr Rah (the one who operated the surgery for me), and he said I have kind of poor callus in the femurs , acctaully he said (not good as it is in the tibia), and that may happened during fixing the misalignment, according to him it disturbed the callus .
so which one of them should I believe, is true that fixing the misalignment causes losing some callus?
if that the case then when it is the best time to fix the misalignment?
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With the Ilizarov frames I wore, misalignments were fixed right when they occurred and were still small, so it didn't require a big procedure. Maybe that wasn't possible with your monorail frames, or maybe your doctor was lazy and didn't check you for misalignments.
I don't know much about x-rays or disturbing the callus, so I don't know why your femur callus is appearing faintly in the x-rays.
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hi again
I have question, and yes it is again about the callus
my last x-ray shows that the callus in my both tibia better than the femurs
when I asked the Dr he said cuz the femur has a lot of muscles that's why in the x-ray it wont show much callus, but both your tibia and femur has the same amount of the callus.
2days later I asked Dr Rah (the one who operated the surgery for me), and he said I have kind of poor callus in the femurs , acctaully he said (not good as it is in the tibia), and that may happened during fixing the misalignment, according to him it disturbed the callus .
so which one of them should I believe, is true that fixing the misalignment causes losing some callus?
if that the case then when it is the best time to fix the misalignment?
Why don't u call those two drs and ask them in front of u about that? For the money u are paying and for the pain u r suffering call those two bastards and tell them not to phuck with u anymore.
I get really upset when I read about Indian doctors saying eveything is ok. Nothing is ok, bring your phucking ass to patients room and give him/her advice and care he/she deserves.
Even u paid that much money for it, u have to fight for your health and good outcome of the operation...
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Hi MDW,
Do you happen to know what the brand of the Beijing nails is?
I was a 2013 patient and I am having a lot of issues with my legs since the operation. I need the information for my orthopedic surgeon, but they would not give me the information even though Ronne told me before I could get the information whenever I need it. It has been very frustrating, I've been asking for almost 2 months but she just kept me going in circles.
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They used Orthofix nails when I was a patient. Hope they haven't changed that, and that everything works out okay for you.
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Hey there, I read through your entire thread and it has answered a lot of questions I would have had for a LL veteran! First off, my brother is the one who had ll surgery performed on him last week, but I am the one who will be taking care of him for the next 3 months. We booked an apartment specifically for this, and have no relatives or friends close by, nice little apartment completely wheelchair accessible.
So far, for the past few days he's been in pain of course, tomorrow his first day of lengthening starts. He went with the precise nail.
Being his personal care taker, would you have any recommendations on any do's and dont's we should take caution of? Anything that will help speed of his recover, and to ensure he recovers completely would be great. Is there anything you would have differently that if you knew you could change you would?
Also, as far as physical therapy goes, we're young guys so we pretty much will be trying to get my brother back to walking by ourselves. Do you have any idea as to how is hould start doing this? Perhaps a physical training routine you could share with me? I found these stretches, hope it's a good start:
http://www.theorthocentermd.com/patient-education/Knee/knee-therapy/
We also ordered a stationary bike for my brother. Thanks so much, and it was great to hear you're doing a lot better and are able to walk after your surgery. I seriously have so much respect for anyone going through this surgery and has gone through it. I personally myself would have never thought about going through the surgery, but the fact that I see everyone have such heart and determination to makes me feel inspired. I'm a huge supporter and advocate now for anyone who has gone through the process and managed to get back to walking. My brother is in a lot of pain already and it's difficult to watch sometimes and not be able to do much. Doing all I can though.
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Hey there, I read through your entire thread and it has answered a lot of questions I would have had for a LL veteran! First off, my brother is the one who had ll surgery performed on him last week, but I am the one who will be taking care of him for the next 3 months. We booked an apartment specifically for this, and have no relatives or friends close by, nice little apartment completely wheelchair accessible.
So far, for the past few days he's been in pain of course, tomorrow his first day of lengthening starts. He went with the precise nail.
Being his personal care taker, would you have any recommendations on any do's and dont's we should take caution of? Anything that will help speed of his recover, and to ensure he recovers completely would be great. Is there anything you would have differently that if you knew you could change you would?
Also, as far as physical therapy goes, we're young guys so we pretty much will be trying to get my brother back to walking by ourselves. Do you have any idea as to how is hould start doing this? Perhaps a physical training routine you could share with me? I found these stretches, hope it's a good start:
http://www.theorthocentermd.com/patient-education/Knee/knee-therapy/
We also ordered a stationary bike for my brother. Thanks so much, and it was great to hear you're doing a lot better and are able to walk after your surgery. I seriously have so much respect for anyone going through this surgery and has gone through it. I personally myself would have never thought about going through the surgery, but the fact that I see everyone have such heart and determination to makes me feel inspired. I'm a huge supporter and advocate now for anyone who has gone through the process and managed to get back to walking. My brother is in a lot of pain already and it's difficult to watch sometimes and not be able to do much. Doing all I can though.
Welcome to the forum! ;D You're a really awesome brother, damn I wish I had one like you.
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Welcome KP!
I haven't read very many posts from someone taking care of a loved one doing LL.
It will be great hearing about LL from your perspective. I hope you keep posting here.
Good luck with everything!!
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Thanks for the support guys, if anything I've noticed everyone on here has been very kind and shows genuine interest/care, I really appreciate it! And I'm glad to be able to share things from my perspective. I've pretty much documented everything for my brother from pictures to interviews on experience with my brother, perhaps I can make a diary with his permission.
My brother has done a lot for me in the past, I feel as though I can never repay him enough even with doing all this I think that it's my job to make sure my brother gets completely better and gets all the help he can for a procedure and process that is life changing for good/worse. I just want to ensure I can do everything in my power to make sure he makes a great recovery. It's definitely been a journey all on my own while trying to look for an apartment and place to stay while my brother was in the hospital, all of which in a foreign city/state.
I'm the younger between us, so I've always just followed my brother around everywhere, but this time it's me who's taken initiative to find a good place and truely make sure the best conditions are met for him to recover. To be quite honest with everyone, I was against the surgery when he first told me about it and we had even argued a few times, as I knew in the end there would still be pain. But even then, my brother decided to go through with it, I can't change his mind so I might as well be there every step of the way.
So far it's been one week since his surgery, he can't walk yet, let a lone even stand with the help of a walker. Tomorrow I'll try to do some stretching when we wake up to ensure his legs don't get too stiff and in the long run develop ballerinas foot. I would think that it's because of the position your leg is in when laying down, perhaps the tendom behind the calf gets used to being in that position all the time that it loses it's flexibility.
Anyway,
I appreciate the warm welcome, I most definitely will post here so I can help out any one in the future who may need tips/are curious to know.
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The advice I have for your brother is to get up in the morning and go to sleep at night, and to eat three meals a day whether he's hungry or not. Maintaining a normal schedule of sleeping and eating is important. There's a rhythm to life that can get easily disrupted by LL unless you make an effort to maintain normalcy.
Some of the patients at Guang Ji hospital developed odd sleeping and eating habits that I'm sure weren't conducive to recovery. I force-fed myself sometimes and took sleeping pills whenever necessary, and I was a lot better off because of it.
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Thanks Mdow, I make sure I cook at least 3 square meals, complex carbs only, with plenty of protein (mainly chicken) and vitamin d, c, calcium, fish oil, and a multivitamin. We also take protein, hopefully that helps with the healing process. Thanks for the advice!
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You are the same starting height as me and almost same weight I'm 140 lbs , always been . How long did it take u to recover and walk normal ? Do you have any problems now ? What do you think I should do I wanna gain 3 inches too and I wil be happy with that , I have skinny legs , and 5'9 wingspan , what's the dif between 5'7 and 5'10 I mean do ppl treat you dif now ?
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You are the same starting height as me and almost same weight I'm 140 lbs , always been . How long did it take u to recover and walk normal ? Do you have any problems now ? What do you think I should do I wanna gain 3 inches too and I wil be happy with that , I have skinny legs , and 5'9 wingspan , what's the dif between 5'7 and 5'10 I mean do ppl treat you dif now ?
I had my surgery in June of 2007, and I was walking normally by February 2008, so that took about 7-8 months. My problems now are that my knees get quite stiff if I don't exercise regularly, and they have a lot of sensitivity when I kneel.
People treat me differently now, but I'm not sure if it's because of my new height or my newfound confidence from being average height. It's made a world of difference in my own perception of myself, self-confidence, and self-worth.
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I had my surgery in June of 2007, and I was walking normally by February 2008, so that took about 7-8 months. My problems now are that my knees get quite stiff if I don't exercise regularly, and they have a lot of sensitivity when I kneel.
People treat me differently now, but I'm not sure if it's because of my new height or my newfound confidence from being average height. It's made a world of difference in my own perception of myself, self-confidence, and self-worth.
thanks a lot do you know what should I do to prevent the knees problem ? And also can u do any kind of work even if it require u to stand for 12 hours a day ?
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I'm not 100% sure, but I believe my knee stiffness and sensitivity were caused by the IM nails.
I can stand as long as I need to. LL didn't affect my endurance for standing.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I believe my knee stiffness and sensitivity were caused by the IM nails.
I can stand as long as I need to. LL didn't affect my endurance for standing.
well said thank man .
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1. You have persistant knee pain up to 4/10 and you still feel it was worth it? How much does it prevent you from enjoying life?
2. I know you posted some pics of the scars but.. can you post more with strong lighting and several angles?
I'm not saying it to knock you down. I'm asking because they look excellent, and if you post more pics and they still look excellent then I will probably do externals then scar revision surgery just like you.
3. Do you think internal femurs would have resulted in significantly less knee pain?
4. Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently?
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Hi there
so as I'm gonna have internal plate in femurs after few days, I'm thinking now to have it for tibia too
some doctors said that I need around 1.5 months to remove the fixator from my tibia..
but I'm not sure about that too... forget about china for a min and let's say you're diso, would you have the plate for your tibia too ?
I want to get back to my life, but I want to avoid extra surgery..
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I wouldn't do the extra surgery. 1.5 months isn't a very long time to wait.
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I'll try to stick to this idea,,
although sometime I think this shouldn't be consider as an extra surgery since I could do it at the same day when I'll operate my femur..
but .. yeah maybe this is better, no more surgery for the tibia ,, thnx MDOW
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So Diso are you not going to lengthen your tibiae then? You're not going for the extra surgery? Which surgery are you not going to go for?
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Hi Medium Drink Of Water, great topic. A couple of questions.
1. About the knee issues - do you just experience stiffness and high sensivity when walking, or real pain? Is the "real" pain just when kneeling or squatting, or also when walking normally?
2. Are you worried about any long time issues and problems that might occur when you are older (in your 60s for example) that haven't been uncovered as a result of LL yet?
Thanks!
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1. It's just occasional stiffness while walking. The sensitivity/pain happens when I kneel on hard surfaces. Here's a link to a post I made about how bad it hurts.
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=288.0
2. I don't think any weird problems will start happening to me as a result of LL when I get older. My legs feel normal and healthy most of the time.
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1. How is the walk during consolidation ? do you look like a slow robot without balance or like an elder who need a bit of support?
2. How long before walking normal after frame removal? By normal i mean like the guy in the video below
3. Is it possible to lengthen in an apartment near the doctor? i mean like a couple of minutes away from him, in case some complications arise so i could reach him within an hour as i don't like the idea of staying in the hospital where i plan to go ( for the first 2 weeks i'll definetely stay in the hospital so the doctor could check my situation and give me the instructions, but no more than that)
4. How much help do you need as time progresses?
5. Did you experience any loss like a couple of mm?
6. Can you give me an idea of the level of pain as time progresses during lengthening and if there's any during consolidation?
7. That's obviously not me, but his body is identical to mine , in terms of proportions as my femurs are way longer than my tibias like in this pic, do you think 5 cm on tibias on this guy will look proportionate? ( the guy in the pic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMR29YFquvg
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Hmm, if its not you in the pic, why bother hiding the face?
To me this guy look perfectly proportional and still will after 5 cm on tibs.
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Medium, were you ever bothered by your proportions at your new height? Have you ever noticed someone at your height having quite bigger arms/hands/feet/torsos than you, and did anyone else ever point it out or do you think someone noticed? Also do you notice your sitting height being quite lower than of people your height?
Your situation now sounds so good, if some knee stiffness is all I had to take for being of average height, I would definitely do it, but I'm also very worried about proportions. We need more reports of fully recovered limb lengtheners, I wonder why they are so scarce.
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I think they tend disappear once they fully recover because they don't need anymore the forum and get on with their life
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1. How is the walk during consolidation ? do you look like a slow robot without balance or like an elder who need a bit of support?
2. How long before walking normal after frame removal? By normal i mean like the guy in the video below
3. Is it possible to lengthen in an apartment near the doctor? i mean like a couple of minutes away from him, in case some complications arise so i could reach him within an hour as i don't like the idea of staying in the hospital where i plan to go ( for the first 2 weeks i'll definetely stay in the hospital so the doctor could check my situation and give me the instructions, but no more than that)
4. How much help do you need as time progresses?
5. Did you experience any loss like a couple of mm?
6. Can you give me an idea of the level of pain as time progresses during lengthening and if there's any during consolidation?
7. That's obviously not me, but his body is identical to mine , in terms of proportions as my femurs are way longer than my tibias like in this pic, do you think 5 cm on tibias on this guy will look proportionate? ( the guy in the pic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMR29YFquvg
1. In the beginning my walking was really slow and I needed to use a walker for balance. A walk around the block could take me 2 hours.
2. I was walking normally (but slower) about 3-4 months after frame removal, except for going down stairs. Stairs are big obstacles for LLers. I could walk at normal speed like the guy in the video by about 7 months.
3. Yes, many people get apartments near their doctor instead of staying in a hospital the whole time. I never had to worry about that since the Beijing Institute's fee includes hospitalization for the entire lengthening period.
4. I didn't feel confident in my ability to drive for the first few months, so I needed help with that. Otherwise, I could do everything for myself as long as I had my walker.
5. No, I didn't lose any height after I finished lengthening.
6. My pain was the worst in the beginning because of all my knee complications, so lengthening for me got easier and less painful toward the end. That's not typical though. The consolidation phase isn't painful for anyone as far as I know.
7. I think that guy could do more than 5cm and still look fine.
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Medium, were you ever bothered by your proportions at your new height? Have you ever noticed someone at your height having quite bigger arms/hands/feet/torsos than you, and did anyone else ever point it out or do you think someone noticed? Also do you notice your sitting height being quite lower than of people your height?
Your situation now sounds so good, if some knee stiffness is all I had to take for being of average height, I would definitely do it, but I'm also very worried about proportions. We need more reports of fully recovered limb lengtheners, I wonder why they are so scarce.
I never get bothered by my proportions at my new height. My sitting height is a bit low for a 5'10 guy, but I just make sure I sit up straight and that's good enough so that it's not a problem. I don't think anyone has ever noticed anything to be "off" about me, and they certainly haven't said anything. I think getting LL was one of the best decisions of my life.
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1. In the beginning my walking was really slow and I needed to use a walker for balance. A walk around the block could take me 2 hours.
2. I was walking normally (but slower) about 3-4 months after frame removal, except for going down stairs. Stairs are big obstacles for LLers. I could walk at normal speed like the guy in the video by about 7 months.
3. Yes, many people get apartments near their doctor instead of staying in a hospital the whole time. I never had to worry about that since the Beijing Institute's fee includes hospitalization for the entire lengthening period.
4. I didn't feel confident in my ability to drive for the first few months, so I needed help with that. Otherwise, I could do everything for myself as long as I had my walker.
5. No, I didn't lose any height after I finished lengthening.
6. My pain was the worst in the beginning because of all my knee complications, so lengthening for me got easier and less painful toward the end. That's not typical though. The consolidation phase isn't painful for anyone as far as I know.
7. I think that guy could do more than 5cm and still look fine.
That's good to hear, cause i have the same proportions as him, 5 cm will make me 183cm at my lowest so that's awesome to hear
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That's good to hear, cause i have the same proportions as him, 5 cm will make me 183cm at my lowest so that's awesome to hear
If that means you are now 178 cm tall, don't do it. Your height is already perfectly fine. Go out there and enjoy your life.
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If that means you are now 178 cm tall, don't do it. Your height is already perfectly fine. Go out there and enjoy your life.
you've already answered it for me
(http://i.gyazo.com/ed65c3bad6ff19874fba0a9fd2b9accf.png)
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Hi,
You said you were in Beijing for 5 months and you gained 7.5cm, did you stay in Beijing for a few months after frame removal?
Could you give a rough, brief timeline of how long you lengthened for, how long after surgery you got your frames removed, how long after frame removal until you could first walk without crutches and how long after frame removal until you could walk normally.
Thanks.
What if you had done the Ilizarov method? now everything would be fine..Right?
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Medium, would you be comfortable with posting a full body shot of yours (in clothes) to see what appearance you make?
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No, I've decided I don't want to post any photos of myself online.
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I just noticed if i put my foot up while sitting relaxed in a couch or even at the computer chair,
My Tibia is unproportioned long for my femur like it's a Tibia of a 5'11-6'0 guy.
And the femur of a under average guy. Maybe im seeing to much but putting your foot up is about 5 cm so adding another 2,25 cm on that would make it obvious no?
So i think i might go for femurs instead but that might look messed up when you walk.
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Also what was the mental part of this journey for you,
I mean the day you sat down and made that appointment from home to the doctor for visitation, Too actually being on the flight and then later on at the hospital talking to the doctor saying you want to pay large amount of money to lengthen/f**k up, your legs? How was his reaction on that.
And did you feel anxiety the first 1-5 days of actuall lengthening? Like what to do, and if you should call the doctor with the smallest doubt of pain/panick.
Also lets say 3 months into lengthening what was you thinking about like you must have had the same 10 things pop into your head.
"what are the folks at home gonna think"
"is this worth it"
Stuff like that. Obviously you had a rather easy road compared to alot of the other lengtheners*.
And you was already on good ground at home but generally i want to know what it was to be you at that moment. ty-.
It all happened very quickly. I made the decision to have LL in a February, and by June my legs were broken and I was in fixators. Both the doctors I visited (Mitkovic and Xia) had lots of recent experience with foreign LL patients so they didn't think it was a big deal.
The first few days of actual lengthening were easy and problem-free. Nothing went wrong so I had no cause for concern. I was just happy to be getting LL at that point. They didn't make me stand for a while, and that was when I got my first taste of real LL pain. It felt like I was standing on spikes, and I guess I kind of was. It wasn't until the end that I started getting paranoid about every little thing, like having one fixator closer to the radiator than the other and the metal expanding unevenly.
The worst time to be me was the 2nd month of my LL when my knee problems were at their worst and nobody could do anything to help me except cortisone injections, which only offered temporary relief and weren't healthy for the knees. That's when I was thinking that I'd made a terrible mistake and considered stopping lest my knees get any worse. However, I knew they weren't going to refund my $25,000 so that was my only chance to get LL and I kept going anyway.
3 months into lengthening my knee problems were starting to get a little better, so I was more relieved than worried by then. I wouldn't be a cripple. I was mostly concerned about the lousy roommate situation at the hospital at that point. I was stuck with either Mummy or KF, and neither of them was a good match for me. I never had doubts about whether LL was worth it or not, nor did I worry about what people would think about LL at home. Because of my then-untreated mental illness I'd lost my last friend a few years prior to getting LL, so I knew I'd be starting over with a whole new group of people who never knew I used to be 170cm.
Thanks for the questions. If anyone has any more, please post them and I'll be glad to answer them. Getting specific questions helps jog my memory about my LL experience 7 years ago. If I just started writing about it, I don't know if I'd be even half as informative as I am when I'm answering questions.
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How much did it take from you life ? a year or more ?
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3 weeks in Serbia (May 2007)
5 months in China (June 2007 - November 2007)
3 months of limping around with a walker/crutches (November 2007 - January 2008)
2 weeks in China again to get the internal nails removed (December 2008)
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Do you think it might become a problem as you grow older?
Especially the stiffness part?
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LL has been around for a long time. There've been thousands of cases of CLL and probably hundreds of thousands of non-cosmetic cases since it was invented by Professor Ilizarov. Nobody's reported major long-term problems as far as I know of, or one would think doctors would've have stopped doing it by now.
So I don't think my problems will get any worse than they are now. However, if I do have problems in the future I'll definitely share them here, or at whatever LL forum exists by then.
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Right now I am unable to do a lot of the physio exercises or walk because of the pain in both legs. The most I can do is stand for maybe 15 or 20 minutes at a time because of the soreness in the leg muscles. I know you said the thicker patients had a harder time lengthening in Beijing. What were the problems they faced from what you could tell? Was it just more pain during the lengthening? Did they seem to recover as well as the other patients once the lengthening was finished?
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Standing works wonders and is a great form of PT for LL patients. As long as you can stand you're all right, so don't worry too much about the other exercises. I was one of the lazy ones, just doing standing for my PT, and I eventually caught up to the more active patients.
Yes, pain was the main complaint from the big guys. They had a lot more tissue to provide resistance, therefore they had more stretching and ripping going on. Larger patients had more wires in Beijing, but it looks like Dr. Parihar is using those two big bolts in the front of your tibiae to deal with your larger size. I have a small frame and got away with just the four wires. Here's an excerpt of what Sober42Long had to say about having thick legs and getting LL:
I look back at my experience here at the hospital and the only thing I can tell you is the only thing I can honestly remember? Pain. This entire process for me, the past 4 months is one giant blur of pain. Although my stature is not very high, my body is very wide and stocky. I had approximately 8% body fat and extremely toned body. My calves were very large and well-developed from jogging 3-5 times a week. I was actually given the largest frames the hospital has, which are generally given to dwarves. (large frames are not necessarily good. they are heavier and require more pins in your legs) Perhaps if my calves were more girly and were scrawnier I would have had significantly less pain. My advice to those who wish to undergo this process is to UN-develop your lower legs. Make them as girly and scrawny, soft and giggly as possible, and stretch them to be a gooey, pliable muscle and that will in my opinion prepare your legs to be stretched 3 inches. Large, muscular and firm calves are not conducive to a pleasant LL experience because the muscle density is greater and generally tougher to stretch which will cause more pain. (Hence, another reason why women experience little or no pain, and can be stretched far more centimeters than men)
He got out okay in the end.
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But that is what i don't get. I got exreme pain sensitivity like if i really knuckle hit my leg it hurts like bad bad. Where my face goes into the position of screaming without actually screaming. It wasnt like this before but i guess depression and inactivity does that to you. So maybe before surgery i should do some muy thai kicks or something to harder my pain sensitivity.
Also he said he got 4 months of pain? Well did he not have pain killers to take?.
Also my calves have gotten juicy from all my shoe lifts i have marched several miles with.
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i had very large legs... so i have heavy frames and large bolts too..... my calves were enormous, very firm... ii think ballerina was unavoidable for a guy like me...
this feels like my diary... i only do standing for pt too
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Also he said he got 4 months of pain? Well did he not have pain killers to take?.
Because of China's bad history with opium, their culture is very conservative about giving out opioid pain medications. And some LL pain is so bad (especially from accidental sudden movements) that even medication can't stop it.
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Medium, you mention that having longer tibias means having shorter strides, and that you have to take more steps than a natural 5'10 person. Do you also have to take more steps than when you were at your original height? Do you have to take more steps than a natural 5'7 person?
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That's a really good question that took some walking around in front of a mirror to answer. I think they're about the same as they were when I was 5'7 since the length of the stride is mostly determined by how far the femur goes forward.
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Can you do LL if you have taken antidepressants in the past? Because they say on old forum that you can't possibly underdo the surgery, because it screws up your brain chemistry and doctors will never do the surgery in that case.
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LL doesn't affect your brain at all. You can do LL if you've taken antidepressants in the past, and even if you are currently on antidepressants. I was on antidepressants the whole time I was doing LL. Three other LL patients I've met in person but won't name out of respect for their privacy also had a history of taking antidepressants, and nothing bad happened to them either.
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This has probably been asked before, but what's the best way you can reduce the physical pain of LL?
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People with thick legs seem to have more pain in general from LL, so I'd advise people to let their legs get skinny in the months before the surgery if they want to spare themselves some misery.
If pain pills aren't enough of a relief, in China they had a medicine called wood lock. It caused a burning sensation that would distract you from the pain caused by the lengthening.
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oh dear, i have pretty thick legs :-[ ok thanks for the answer!
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I can attest to the thing leg thing.
MDOW: Do you still have some minor stretch aches in your calfs or tendon in the mornings?
Could you easily stretch your calfs when you wake up(you know, pushing against a wall with one leg straight back. Entire foot on floor) without and discomfort?
Have you ever tried squats with heavy weights?(60-100kg or 200pound)
Did you ever had x-legs? How was it handled?
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I can attest to the thing leg thing.
MDOW: Do you still have some minor stretch aches in your calfs or tendon in the mornings?
Could you easily stretch your calfs when you wake up(you know, pushing against a wall with one leg straight back. Entire foot on floor) without and discomfort?
Have you ever tried squats with heavy weights?(60-100kg or 200pound)
Did you ever had x-legs? How was it handled?
At this point everything has settled down, and my legs feel the same in the mornings as they do in the evenings. I can do the stretch you described without discomfort, and I often do yoga first thing in the morning.
I haven't tried doing squats, but I have a home weight machine that goes up to 200lbs. I can do a lot of reps on the leg press at the maximum weight. I even did that back when I had my nails in without any problems. I think I could go quite a bit higher if I went to a gym, since bearing weight with the legs has never been a problem.
I never had x-legs or bowed legs. In Beijing the doctors regularly checked us for misalignment and corrected it by having us turn the knobs unevenly until the legs straightened out. I'm skeptical of non-surgical treatments for bowing or x-ing. Maybe building up the muscles can create an illusion of the leg being straighter, but if the bone is crooked then it's crooked. I don't see how doing PT is going to change that when you've got an orthopedic nail holding it in place.
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You often hear the advice "don't go over 10-15% of the original bone length" because you will get alot of trouble otherwise. Was this true for you? Did you lengthen under or over 15%, and if over, did your doctor warn you against it?
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I lengthened about 20% (15 inches to 18 inches). Professor Xia measured my legs and told me 8cm was the most I should lengthen, and I did 7.5cm.
I didn't get any additional problems once I passed the 5cm mark like patients such as Sweden have reported, at least not while I was lengthening. I got exertional compartment syndrome as a result of the new anatomy of my legs, which needed another surgery (fasciotomy) to fix. I'm not sure I could've avoided that if I'd lengthened 15% or not though, since I don't have a twin who only did 15%. ;)
The more I learn about LL, the more patients I talk to, the more I think of it as an individual thing that needs to be customized to fit the needs of each patient. Some people can lengthen a lot without problems, some can't. The best advice I can give to people is not to have a goal in the beginning - just stop lengthening when you start having problems since that's your body telling you it's had enough.
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Thanks!
One more question...can you touch your toes while keeping your legs straight?
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Yes. My flexibility came back surprisingly well. It's better than it's ever been actually. The fact that I started doing yoga helps a lot.
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Yes. My flexibility came back surprisingly well. It's better than it's ever been actually. The fact that I started doing yoga helps a lot.
Did you loose yourself during lengthening or did your morale and generall awarness stay as high. i Mean 17:39 at the clock with pain on your legs in a foreign country doing a surgery you don't know much about regarding complications.
I feel that i will have a hard time relaxing when i do the surgery.
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My morale and general awareness always stayed pretty high. I think I can credit the Guang Ji Hospital social scene for that. There were always ~20-25 foreign patients there who spoke English, plus the Chinese patients who knew the language. Being able to look forward to going on rounds and visiting with friends every evening after dinner was hugely important for my mental well-being.
I was able to relax because I was basically a baby while I was there. I was under the care of doctors, nurses, and caretakers the whole time and didn't have to do anything for myself. I signed up for a program with proven results, and I fully bought into it mentally. I was really worried about my knees in the beginning, but those problems ended up resolving themselves and the end was pretty smooth sailing.
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My morale and general awareness always stayed pretty high. I think I can credit the Guang Ji Hospital social scene for that. There were always ~20-25 foreign patients there who spoke English, plus the Chinese patients who knew the language. Being able to look forward to going on rounds and visiting with friends every evening after dinner was hugely important for my mental well-being.
I was able to relax because I was basically a baby while I was there. I was under the care of doctors, nurses, and caretakers the whole time and didn't have to do anything for myself. I signed up for a program with proven results, and I fully bought into it mentally. I was really worried about my knees in the beginning, but those problems ended up resolving themselves and the end was pretty smooth sailing.
Thanks man. This give me great relief because i need the certainty that the pain im feeling is the right one. And im being taken care of accordingly. I am normally a person who don't talk about my feelings or ask for help. I want to do it myself because i always am happy with the result or i can only blame myself. So the thought of being 0% in controll scares me.
Also a question. How did you socialize with the other patients there. Do you just roll into their room while you are in a wheelchair or what?. I think i will be "ashamed" of the procedure so i don't want others to know i went to great lengths to improve my height thinking im UBER insecure while i just want a little bit of height. Maybe im looking into this too much haha.
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That's pretty much it, just roll on into their hospital rooms and start a conversation. You've got the "how are your legs" icebreaker to use on everyone there so it's easy to start chatting with people. Then it moves into deeper conversation. I revealed quite a lot about myself and got told a lot by others. It's amazing how quickly strangers can open up when they have something in common.
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That's pretty much it, just roll on into their hospital rooms and start a conversation. You've got the "how are your legs" icebreaker to use on everyone there so it's easy to start chatting with people. Then it moves into deeper conversation. I revealed quite a lot about myself and got told a lot by others. It's amazing how quickly strangers can open up when they have something in common.
Very good point, i also suspect that when people are vulnerable which they would be doing LL, they tend to be more open because they need the support and sharing the burden etc.
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Kinda pointless question, but did the topic of LL ever come up at a medical examination with a doctor after the operation? Like when you were at the doctor for something totally different, and he just casually notices scars and you said "Oh yeah, I had surgery to lengthen my legs" or when you just told him. Did something like that ever happen?
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That happened to me a few weeks ago actually, and has happened before that as well. I always just tell the truth since there's no reason to hide things like that from a doctor, due to confidentiality. I like using the term "distraction osteogenesis" with them though.
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How have doctors reacted or responded when you tell them that you did this surgery for cosmetic reasons? What kinds of visits/examinations prompted you to feel the need to reveal LL to doctors, and do the doctors document what you reveal to them on terms of LL?
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They haven't had strong reactions at all. Just "oh, okay" and then they move on. But pretty much everything you tell a doctor will get documented, even if you didn't come in for that reason. Doctors like to document stuff.
It mainly came up when I was dealing with LL-related stuff, like scar revision and my fasciotomy surgery. But it's come up when I was in a wheelchair, and also when I was wearing shorts one time and the doctor saw my scars.
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When I consulted with an ortho he was astounded that I would do something like this, especially in India of all places. We spent more time discussing the details of my journey than the condition of the legs. He even called people in to show them the x-ray.
One nurse looked disgusted at me, almost like I had raped her or something to a similar effect. It was complete and utter disgust and disdain and like I was the biggest loser she had ever encountered. Completely avoided eye contact the whole time. Why? I don't know. But it goes to prove a point: never tell a female about this, ever.
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But it goes to prove a point: never tell a female about this, ever.
Why not? It sorts the dumbest ones out.
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The main reason i wouldnt tell a girl/woman about this surgery is because it would suggest my genes are worse than they initially appeared to be..(i think a big part of why lots of girls want tall guys is because they think they are genetically better than shorter guys)
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Perhaps that is why she appeared as if she had been raped. Maybe she was indeed raped metaphorically, knowing that this type of deception against her instincts exists in the world.
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The main reason i wouldnt tell a girl/woman about this surgery is because it would suggest my genes are worse than they initially appeared to be..(i think a big part of why lots of girls want tall guys is because they think they are genetically better than shorter guys)
Honestly, I cancelled that in my area. I know for sure doing this surgery to appeal females is just wrong. Especially them braindead sluts who should care about your genes. You don't want that crap.
Maybe she was indeed raped metaphorically, knowing that this type of deception against her instincts exists in the world.
Yeah, that's a good point. I was having x-ray once at random clinic, and the woman in charge of it asked what's with my legs, I told her I lengthened them and she said something like 'well you can't cheat nature', damn I got pissed and literally felt beating her to death telling her she can't beat death. The only thing that stopped me is the fact I was still wearing frames.
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But if the reason is based on genes, then you cant really blame those girls as it is part of evolution and natural. If a girl drops a guy because she has been mentally conditioned by society that taller guys are better then i agree she is not worth it.
I mean can we really hold it against a person who (maybe only subconciously) is looking for good genes? its different compared to girls who want a bad boy, like the criminals who gets tons of love letters (criminal behavior doesnt suggest good genes, maybe it gives the impression of aggressive behavior and thus alpha genes, but it should be obvious to their instincts that simply being aggressive doesnt translate to being alpha)
Its similar as me wanting to marry a girl with a good looking face, because i want our children to be good looking too, if i found out a good looking girl had done lots of plastic surgery and that she was originally ugly, then i wouldnt be able to date her, because her new look isnt suggestive of her actual genes she will pass on.
Although height is slightly different since it is more affected by the environment/nutrition during the time you grow up, so even people with good genes for height can end up shorter than they should have been based on their genes. the facial features wont change depending on your nutrition during the growth, if anything just minimally.
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I would date a hot girl who had plastic surgery for fun, but would definitely make sure that no kids come out of it if her plastic surgery was extreme! Point is that I can still find a "fake" girl attractive, but wouldn't want my kids to have her genes. I am sure it can work that way for women being attracted to men who had LL. As long as he is proportional, women are still programmed to find tall men attractive subconsciously, regardless of how they got tall. Now, they might take precautions to stop themselves from having that man'a kids (and such a precaution might be rejection), but that is merely the logical part of the brain kicking in, and the logical part of the brain is NOT responsible for attraction. The natural feelings of attraction would still present of the LL patient looks good.
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I would date a hot girl who had plastic surgery for fun, but would definitely make sure that no kids come out of it if her plastic surgery was extreme! Point is that I can still find a "fake" girl attractive, but wouldn't want my kids to have her genes. I am sure it can work that way for women being attracted to men who had LL. As long as he is proportional, women are still programmed to find tall men attractive subconsciously, regardless of how they got tall. Now, they might take precautions to stop themselves from having that man'a kids (and such a precaution might be rejection), but that is merely the logical part of the brain kicking in, and the logical part of the brain is NOT responsible for attraction. The natural feelings of attraction would still present of the LL patient looks good.
Yeah when i said i wouldnt date a hot girl who had plastic surgery, i basically meant that i wouldnt try to make her my girlfriend, i would bang her though regulary if she was up to it. I just dont want her genes if she was ugly before surgery.
However women are different, they knowing we did a surgery like this would tell them we are insecure, and maybe also shallow with our looks. These personality traits are very off putting to many women, even if they happen to like what they see. Some girls might still want the D, but not date us because of the surgery. personally i wouldnt want to remove the potential of a partnership with anyone who is hot enough to bang (only exception is as mentioned when they had plastic surgery and i knew about it, and they where ugly before)
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MDOW, did you ever get random pain in your thighs while lengthening tibias? Particularly in the hamstrings?
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MDOW, did you ever get random pain in your thighs while lengthening tibias? Particularly in the hamstrings?
No. All my pain was at or below the knees.
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Man, I haven't read of any other tibia lengthening patient having pain on their thighs yet one day the pain in my right hamstring for so bad I needed a shot underneath my thigh for pain relief. Weird.
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Man, I haven't read of any other tibia lengthening patient having pain on their thighs yet one day the pain in my right hamstring for so bad I needed a shot underneath my thigh for pain relief. Weird.
It could be nerve damage or even early consolidation. A guy in India had that. His fibula fused and pulled the muscles in the thigh.
He was on heavy pain medication but it was unbearable and then they found out about the fibula and had to re break it.
Then right before frame removal it was fused again and had to get a small monorail on it to lengthen it even more.
He was in a world of .
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Do you regret doing the surgery or was it one of the best decision of your life?
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Omg you guys saying girls are shallow when most of the time you are even worse, basically you are turning a chick off just because of her looks, add to your personality your height which doesn't help either and you got the reasons why had problems with them
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Them. As if they were a commodity, a collective entity, a stock, a product; something to be traded and bartered for on the open market. Sounds accurate after all...
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you cant really blame those girls as it is part of evolution and natural
Yes I can and I will. It should also be natural for a man to rape, if his sperm is rejected. Don't use nature to justify stupidity, we're HUMAN, we should strive as much to get away from our animal instincts.
On top of that you forget completely, ignore the fact that height is influenced hugely by nutrition and overall quality of life, look at the Dutch. And also that we currently have tons of medication to increase height in child.
Can't also compare height to facial features, you can't inject your child rGH to get him prettier. In a perfect, intelligent world, no one should care anyways.
basically you are turning a chick off just because of her looks
Wha... how? How do you know? And even if so, how are we worse exactly, if they're doing the same? Lol
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Do you regret doing the surgery or was it one of the best decision of your life?
I don't regret it. It sucks being short, and my life is much better now.
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Another stupid question, now that you're taller, has any girl ever said she liked that about you, for example by admiringly saying "you're so tall" ? Did you get compliments from some because of your height, when they were describing you?
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Nah, that's never happened. I guess at 5'10 most girls don't consider me "tall."
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Nah, that's never happened. I guess at 5'10 most girls don't consider me "tall."
But do you consider yourself an item now? like you can begin to construct your avatar and height is just meh at this point. Sure we all would like to be 6'4 but still at 5'8 i feel just a coupe more inches and i would roll my eyes all day.
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I'm not sure what you mean by being an item and constructing an avatar.
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I'm not sure what you mean by being an item and constructing an avatar.
Like before you did the surgery nothing you ever did mattered. Now that you are taller and "in the game again" Do you feel confident that you got enough height to yeah...construct/improve yourself.
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The opposite, actually. The need to construct/improve myself is all in the past. Right now I'm happy with who I am, just being an average person. Being average is what became okay after the surgery that wasn't okay before.
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One should always look to improve and find himself. Height is not relevant to these things.
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can I do external tibia stay like for 2 xeeks and then go length home ?
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Hi MDOW ;D
I need you to recommend for me any natural supplement that has the same affect as tramadol,
I noticed when I took 37mg of tramadol I can walk for long distance without feeling tired, I feel much stronger when I take it, I even be able to walk without walker, just need someone to hold my hand though to sustain my balance, but the thing is I could complete about 60 min in my feet if i took it , beer would have the same influence,but I cant get beer in hospital .. and I want to cutout using tramadol, so any recommendation
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Maybe ask your doctor about taking diazepam, lorazepam, or clonazepam. Those are tranquilizers that have a similar effect to alcohol when taken in high doses.
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can I do external tibia stay like for 2 xeeks and then go length home ?
Yes. That's how the local patients do it in Beijing.
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Nah, that's never happened. I guess at 5'10 most girls don't consider me "tall."
Lol. I have a friend who's claims he's 6'1" but I'm 99.9 certain he's actually 6'0" and women didn't consider him tall. So Im not surprised they didn't consider you tall.
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Hi
It may sound like a silly question but I'm a woman and I enjoy greatly walking in high heels.
After reading that for some people has been difficult to even kneel on the floor after surgery I wonder if I could ever slipper into my heels again once recovered.
If there is any woman who may had experience that I would be interested to know!
Another topic I was interested about is scars. I would like to gather as many suggestions as possible on how much scarring can be improved after surgery.
Thank you!
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Hi
It may sound like a silly question but I'm a woman and I enjoy greatly walking in high heels.
After reading that for some people has been difficult to even kneel on the floor after surgery I wonder if I could ever slipper into my heels again once recovered.
If there is any woman who may had experience that I would be interested to know!
Another topic I was interested about is scars. I would like to gather as many suggestions as possible on how much scarring can be improved after surgery.
Thank you!
I can still wear my shoes with lifts just fine, so I don't see why high heels would be a problem after LL.
Scarring can be almost completely eliminated with excision surgery. You'll just have thin white lines once they are healed up.
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Thank you for your answer, given the many complications of this surgery it's good to know that recovery could be brighter then I thought.
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The opposite, actually. The need to construct/improve myself is all in the past. Right now I'm happy with who I am, just being an average person. Being average is what became okay after the surgery that wasn't okay before.
you said you are avereage n not tall now .. are u from a western country? america?
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Yes.
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Would you be interested in doing a screening test to really see what you can and can't do?
How does it feel in the mornings when you wake up and go to the bathroom? Aching ankles for the first steps? Full balance?
Can you fully squat and hop around like a frog for like a yard?
How fast are you when sprinting compared to before?(if you ever do that)
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I have full balance and no aching first thing in the morning. Mornings are the same as afternoons, evenings, and nights.
I can squat and hop like a frog.
I'd say I'm about 80-90% as fast as I was sprinting before LL. Endurance is what suffered. The tibialis anterior muscle gets tired really easily.
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I just wanna thank you for still being here and supporting us water. It means alot.
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If you didn't care much about athletic ability, except maybe walking fast every now and then, would you think that LL would be worth it? I'm currently 5'8 and would love to reach 5'11. Overall do you recommend LL? Also does it hurt to stand/walk for long periods of time?
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If you didn't care much about athletic ability, except maybe walking fast every now and then, would you think that LL would be worth it? I'm currently 5'8 and would love to reach 5'11. Overall do you recommend LL? Also does it hurt to stand/walk for long periods of time?
Yeah, LL will probably be worth it for someone like you.
It doesn't hurt to stand/walk for long periods of time any more than it did before I had LL.
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Hi MDoW,
How did it take you after surgery to start running? My walking is improving every day, but I feel like running is still far away. I had my surgery 10 months ago.
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Hi sweatpants.
how much do you lengthening?
I am planning 5, 5,5 in tibias with salameh.
Cheers, and i hope you have very good recovery.
paco.
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Hi MDoW,
How did it take you after surgery to start running? My walking is improving every day, but I feel like running is still far away. I had my surgery 10 months ago.
I first ran to catch a bus at about the 9 month mark. I was worried that running might make my screws come loose, so I didn't make a habit of it until after the nails were out.
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Hi sweatpants.
how much do you lengthening?
I am planning 5, 5,5 in tibias with salameh.
Cheers, and i hope you have very good recovery.
paco.
I have 4 cm on my tibia.
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sweatpants, do you have any knee pain?
i am thinking in fitbone in my tibias.
cheers paco.
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hi mdow, i am planning to join the police force but my height is 2 cms short and i thought of doing 4 cm of LON on tibia, although i only need 2cm to qualify for the selection but what worries me is the medical checkup and the hard training, do u think 2 cm lengthening is possible without loosing all the effects of the legs like before surgery???pls help
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I don't know how 2cm or 4cm will affect you, sorry. I just know how 7.5cm affected me.
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Hey Medium Drink of Water.
I have a question. How has LL affected your walking speed? Do you feel slower? Do you have any pain when you walk? What about flexibility in your legs?
Thanks a lot.
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My walking speed is about the same as before. Same with running. I don't have pain when I walk, but I get tired more easily when I run.
Flexibility-wise, I used to be able to put my palms on the floor. Now I can only get the tips of my fingers on the floor. I lost about 3" of reach, the same amount I lengthened.
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My walking speed is faster now my legs are longer. Longer strides I guess.
I can not run because I get pain. I can jog very small distance and stop and then run again and then stop.
Flexibility. I have tight knees and can not touch my toes. When I stretch I get nerve pain
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How long ago was your surgery ant?
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About 6 years ago in India. Might be 7 years ago. Problem was ilizarov treatment in India. Mitkovic has given me some free treatments to help me recover somewhat. A lot of treatment has been doing cheaply such as tibia re alignment, tendon lengthening, some scar removal, ankle arthroscopy I'm still got muscle contractures so have limited motion but I can walk without anybody noticing I have a problem
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well...
ant... hope u recover more
i made a bad decision, and now will need left leg realigned
im not in any pain though... just the outside of my left foot isa bit numb currently, but no pain or loss of function
just pissed i need left leg aligned
what surgeries do you need?
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I need left femur rotating slightly and that would fix my left tibia misalignment a bit better. Some knee damage, not too sure what. I need Achilles' tendon lengthening again. I can get flat feet to walk but I feel my legs wanting to get into ballerina position again.
I still have 2 broken pins sitting in my bone that need removing.
I need something so I can bend my knees more aswell. I have lost about 30% knee motion.
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Ant, was LL worth it for you, despite everything it's made you endure?
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ant,,..
i read a few of your posts
people need to read this... some ballerina issues are permant unless you get surgery... people need to realize this... i had surgery, seems to have fixed it, but ant is correct
ant, you need more lengthening??
and did you lenthen both femurs and tibias?
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For me it's been worthwhile confidence wise . I love the extra height but the financial cost, time, life long problems etc all seem to effect my close loved ones aswell. I seem very selfish for doing this. Life would have been a million times easier for me if I didn't do leg lengthening. My children would never be bothered if I was short All they want is a daddy they can play with. I married my wife at 5ft 5inches talk and was together about 5 years before I did leg lengthening. I never needed leg lengthening. It was just a added bonus. I had everything , family, house , money etc. leg lengthening was just a added bonus. The only mistake I made was going to India. If I went to serbia in the first place, I would have recovered very well and be taller and would have spent a lot less money and time on doing this
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I lengthened both Tibias and femurs. Tibias were lengthened about 2 cm more and then gained on my Tibias through re aligning them aswell so Tibias could well be 4 cm too long than my femurs and you can tell the difference I think you need to keep original individual tibia to femur ratio for athletic performance. I think if I lengthened my femurs some more then that would help a little yes for balance and running.
Achilles' tendon was lengthened approximately 7 cm via a plasty and I think I need about 4 cm more.
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ant,
can you not put your heels on the floor?
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Yes my heels are flat no problem. The problem is when the calf muscle is tired and starts to become tight I want to start standing on my top toes like a ballerina. My ankles do not bend backwards so walking uphill is a knightmare. Stairs are a problem as each ankles bends a different amount
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Ankles will go to 90 degrees maximum. No more even if I jump on them and I weigh 220lbs. They are solid at 90 degrees
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mmm
will you get surgery soon?
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what about heavy duty pt to get ankles more flexible?
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Done all kinds of physiotherapy. Best treatment was heating my ankles up with heat lamp and then Having someone realy strong try and stretch them but the progress is nearly zero. Aqua therapy was a waste of time. I need surgical lengthening again but the total recovery time could be several months and they would only do 1 ankle at a time. So to Do both ankles and walk again could take more than a year again.
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i agree, lengthening is needed sometimes
and recovery does take up to 9 months for achilles
but in the long run, its better to fix it now
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Are you getting any positive comments from people about your height?
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mdow, is it normal for fibula callus to form much later??
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Are you getting any positive comments from people about your height?
No. I'm just average for my country now.
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mdow, is it normal for fibula callus to form much later??
I don't know if it's normal, but that's how it happened for me. My fibulae weren't consolidated yet when the internal nails came out.
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No. I'm just average for my country now.
What country?
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are they consolidated now?
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are they consolidated now?
I don't know. I haven't had an x-ray since then.
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What country?
USA
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You've mentioned that you considered lengthening your femurs in the past. Are you still considering lengthening them?
Do you desire to be above average in height, or is average good enough for you? Is it hard for you to accept your height at 5'10? If not, what rationale do you use to feel comfortable with your current height? I am 5'10 as well, and I really don't want to do LL, but I haven't gone a week without thinking negatively about myself due to my height for the last few years, and I want to change that. 6'1-6'2 should do it for me. But, maybe I can avoid LL. I used to think about height every day. Now it's down to a few times per week, which I interpet as progress in the right direction. Do you have any advice in regard to this?
Would you have preferred it if you could have stayed 5'7 but found a way not to care about your height, or did the perks of being average at 5'10 make LL worth it for you, even though it meant being very aware of height descrimination and changing yourself because of it?
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You've mentioned that you considered lengthening your femurs in the past. Are you still considering lengthening them?
Do you desire to be above average in height, or is average good enough for you? Is it hard for you to accept your height at 5'10? If not, what rationale do you use to feel comfortable with your current height? I am 5'10 as well, and I really don't want to do LL, but I haven't gone a week without thinking negatively about myself due to my height for the last few years, and I want to change that. 6'1-6'2 should do it for me. But, maybe I can avoid LL. I used to think about height every day. Now it's down to a few times per week, which I interpet as progress in the right direction. Do you have any advice in regard to this?
Would you have preferred it if you could have stayed 5'7 but found a way not to care about your height, or did the perks of being average at 5'10 make LL worth it for you, even though it meant being very aware of height descrimination and changing yourself because of it?
I'm not considering lengthening my femurs anymore. When I look at myself in the mirror with 2" lifts on, my legs just look too long. I've decided that being taller isn't even an option for me. Of course I'd like more lengthening... who wouldn't want to be 6' or more and enjoy all the benefits of being tall? However, I no longer feel bad about my height like I did when I was 5'7. It's something I rarely think about anymore when I'm out in public. About half the people I see are shorter than me and half are taller, which is fine.
I definitely would prefer to have stayed 5'7 and found a way not to care about my height, but I think that would've been impossible. LL was necessary for me to be happy with myself. If there's another way for you to be happy without LL, then that's for the best, but if not then I guess you've got to go for it.
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How do you feel when you pee with your new height?
What do you feel when you stand near someone who is your former height?
Does hugging feel different?
Do you feel more hungry?
Can you sleep as you did before surgery?
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How do you feel when you pee with your new height?
What do you feel when you stand near someone who is your former height?
Does hugging feel different?
Do you feel more hungry?
Can you sleep as you did before surgery?
At first the toilet looked really low, but I've gotten used to it by now.
Sometimes when I stand next to someone my former height, I'm amazed at how little difference there seems to be. Maybe that's because my forehead isn't taken into the equation.
Hugging feels different depending on the height of the person.
I don't know if I feel more hungry or not. I've had other diet/exercise things going on which has muddied the waters.
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Do you look at yourself more often in the mirror?
With a bigger body can you handle more alcohol now?
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did u not use lifts before?
or u got higher than ur lifts? :D
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How much pain did the stomach injections felt like?
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Do you look at yourself more often in the mirror?
With a bigger body can you handle more alcohol now?
I actually look at myself less in the mirror because I'm less self-conscious overall since the surgery.
I'm not much of a drinker so there's not enough data to make a conclusion about how much alcohol I can handle.
did u not use lifts before?
or u got higher than ur lifts? :D
I tried a lot of different kinds of lifts but hated them all, so no, I didn't use lifts. LL was my reaction to how badly I hated them.
How much pain did the stomach injections felt like?
I never had any stomach injections.
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Are your legs the same length or do they differ?
Can you hop in one leg for 20 seconds?
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Now when you watch tv with your friends and obvious heightism commercials pop up maybe subtle message that means taller is better. Are you still aware? Do you feel like you are on the "other side" while watching tv with your friends do you feel as if you all are looking down at the commercial.
As Before (5'7) you where the george in comedy of every sitcom kinda situtation. If you get what i mean.
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Are your legs the same length or do they differ?
Can you hop in one leg for 20 seconds?
They're the same length, and I can hop on one leg for much longer than 20 seconds.
Now when you watch tv with your friends and obvious heightism commercials pop up maybe subtle message that means taller is better. Are you still aware? Do you feel like you are on the "other side" while watching tv with your friends do you feel as if you all are looking down at the commercial.
As Before (5'7) you where the george in comedy of every sitcom kinda situtation. If you get what i mean.
That's gotten a lot better.
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Longest drive after LLS?
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I don't know what you mean.
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I don't know what you mean.
Longest amount of time you spent driving a car post LLS?
Can you sit in your legs like Japanese people do?
Did you ever fall out of balance from being taller?
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Could you tell us a bit more how your proportions have changed?
Do you move differently with a longer inseam, or do you perhaps have trouble reaching things without bending?
I am also interested if you have gone hiking, climbing or otherwise been active for a few days since your surgery, if so how did that go?
-Have your "explosivness" suffered?
-Did you have long arms before surgery, how do they look now?
Not to make you feel insecure or anything, I'm sure you look great.
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Longest amount of time you spent driving a car post LLS?
Can you sit in your legs like Japanese people do?
Did you ever fall out of balance from being taller?
3 hours is the longest I've driven. Driving isn't a problem at all, as long as I push the seat all the way back and lean the backrest all the way forward.
I can still sit Japanese-style, but it's not comfortable. Feels like my quads aren't flexible enough, and like there's too much weight on my calves.
Sometimes I wobble a little bit if I'm not paying attention to my balance, but I've never actually fallen.
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Could you tell us a bit more how your proportions have changed?
Do you move differently with a longer inseam, or do you perhaps have trouble reaching things without bending?
I am also interested if you have gone hiking, climbing or otherwise been active for a few days since your surgery, if so how did that go?
-Have your "explosivness" suffered?
-Did you have long arms before surgery, how do they look now?
Not to make you feel insecure or anything, I'm sure you look great.
Feels like my strides are shorter, but I don't think they really are. More like shorter than they should be for someone of my height. They haven't changed in length since before LL.
I don't hike or climb, but I'm sure I could do it for a trip that lasted a few days. During my rehab period I walked multiple hours a day every day.
My explosiveness in some ways is reduced, and in other ways it's fine. I can sprint as well as I used to. I think I'd have trouble with a sports/army style obstacle course, like when they jump into and out of tires. Hopping around is also slower and more difficult than it was before.
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Do you eat healthier now?
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Did you have Achilles' tendon lengthening along with your tibial lengthening?
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Did you have Achilles' tendon lengthening along with your tibial lengthening?
No. Dr. Peng examined me and said it wasn't necessary.
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No. Dr. Peng examined me and said it wasn't necessary.
Hmmm, I wonder if that was a problem. Dr. Paley and others heavily advocate Achilles' tendon lengthening for anything above 5 cm.
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It doesn't seem to be an issue for me at all.
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(Not a joke) Are you sure they didn't steal an organ from you?
My mom thinks that in places like China or India have high risk of organ traffic.
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I didn't wake up with any unusual scars, so I'm sure no organs were stolen from me.
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Do more people initiate conversations with you?
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It doesn't seem to be an issue for me at all.
I thought you said that you lost some endurance and agility?
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That has nothing to do with my Achilles needing surgery.
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all In all how much did the surgery cost, And how much cash would you recommend. for 7-8 cm increase?
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all In all how much did the surgery cost, And how much cash would you recommend. for 7-8 cm increase?
The prices in Beijing are no longer the same as when Medium Drink of Water did LL. That means that the cost he payed is not relevant to you. You can expect to pay over $30,000 to do LL at the same clinic.
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That has nothing to do with my Achilles needing surgery.
Do you think that it was just a natural side effect of ll (losing endurance and such)?
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Do you think that it was just a natural side effect of ll (losing endurance and such)?
If I had to guess, it's biomechanical. Imagine swinging a longer than standard baseball bat. You'd be slower and get tired sooner.
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Can you walk just fine in a slope/diagonal surface?
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Can you walk just fine in a slope/diagonal surface?
Yes I can.
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is your tibia longer now tan your femur? how much cm?
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Is it harder to get out of a short car now that you got long legs?
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is your tibia longer now tan your femur? how much cm?
They are the same length now. Dr. Xia believes that it's acceptable for them to be the same length, but the tibia can't be longer.
Is it harder to get out of a short car now that you got long legs?
A little bit harder but not much. If I'm not paying close attention to what I'm doing, I might wobble a bit when getting out of a short car.
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Can you use an elliptic machine now?
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Yes.
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They are the same length now. Dr. Xia believes that it's acceptable for them to be the same length, but the tibia can't be longer.
A little bit harder but not much. If I'm not paying close attention to what I'm doing, I might wobble a bit when getting out of a short car.
If your tibia is same length as femur, does it make your walking weird? or do you run worse than before? Because the usual ratio is 0.8
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Hi MDOW,
Thanks for the replies so far. I read all of this thread, and I'm left with a couple of questions:
1) Why would you have done the other external method in Eastern Europe (the name escapes me right now), vs the one you did in China?
2) I don't know if you've kept up with the technological advances, would you still have done it at the Beijing hospital?
3) How bad are the scars without the plastic surgery to have them reduced? were you getting questions on them prior/ do you still get them even with the scar reduction?
4) I'm 1.77m (5'9-10) and I'm the shortest of my friends, and I've always dreamed of 'if I had 2 more inches'. Did you encounter any such patients there?
5) Is the process for 5cm different /less invasive/less complications/faster healing than going for extra added length?
Thanks!
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If your tibia is same length as femur, does it make your walking weird? or do you run worse than before? Because the usual ratio is 0.8
Just a little bit worse. It's worth it for the extra height.
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Hi MDOW,
Thanks for the replies so far. I read all of this thread, and I'm left with a couple of questions:
1) Why would you have done the other external method in Eastern Europe (the name escapes me right now), vs the one you did in China?
2) I don't know if you've kept up with the technological advances, would you still have done it at the Beijing hospital?
3) How bad are the scars without the plastic surgery to have them reduced? were you getting questions on them prior/ do you still get them even with the scar reduction?
4) I'm 1.77m (5'9-10) and I'm the shortest of my friends, and I've always dreamed of 'if I had 2 more inches'. Did you encounter any such patients there?
5) Is the process for 5cm different /less invasive/less complications/faster healing than going for extra added length?
Thanks!
1. I chose Serbia first because the method he was going to use was the least invasive and would cause the least amount of trauma to the body. (External-only monorail).
2. I'd go back to China. Dr. Peng is a good surgeon and the price includes hospitalization for the whole time you're there. They brought me good Chinese food 3 times a day and doctors/nurses were always on call. It's also nice to have a group of other LLers with you in the hospital who you can talk to. That's something the hospital environment in China also provides. However, I'd insist on external-only if I could do it again. I blame the nailing surgery for my knee issues.
3. I think it's all a matter of opinion about how bad scars are.
Here are RGKEY's scars. http://i.imgur.com/6z27vWbl.jpg Mine were a little less noticeable because I had fewer pins, but that's pretty much what Ilizarov scarring looks like.
4. There were two 176cm patients whose goal was 183 when I was there, so you're not going to be the only one in history wanting to go from average to tall. Dr. Peng doesn't have a maximum height cutoff. He doesn't turn away paying customers.
5. 5cm isn't any less invasive, but you'll finish faster and heal faster.
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Just a little bit worse. It's worth it for the extra height.
some people quote issues with balance. is it a problem?
my second question: did you try strengthening your legs with plyometrics. It will only be a fair comparison if you have done everything you can to regain your leg strength (after all you been thru a harsh surgery). So after surgery, if you want to assess athletic performance I think you should try all you can before making a conclusion.. (and also wait a few years like you did). so my question is did you try to regain your leg strength and quickness, and how does it compare to pre-op (if you did plyometrics and all)
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1. I chose Serbia first because the method he was going to use was the least invasive and would cause the least amount of trauma to the body. (External-only monorail).
2. I'd go back to China. Dr. Peng is a good surgeon and the price includes hospitalization for the whole time you're there. They brought me good Chinese food 3 times a day and doctors/nurses were always on call. It's also nice to have a group of other LLers with you in the hospital who you can talk to. That's something the hospital environment in China also provides. However, I'd insist on external-only if I could do it again. I blame the nailing surgery for my knee issues.
3. I think it's all a matter of opinion about how bad scars are.
Here are RGKEY's scars. http://i.imgur.com/6z27vWbl.jpg Mine were a little less noticeable because I had fewer pins, but that's pretty much what Ilizarov scarring looks like.
Thanks, couple more follow up questions.
1) I went to the Chinese website, I don't see a mention of external only - do you happen to know if they have that option?
2) The scars are definitely noticeable since they're dotted. I'd definitely have to have them worked on. Can you tell me if it was the same reason you had them redone? How soon realistically could you do the scar revision surgery?
3) Why did you go for tibia vs femur?
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Thanks, couple more follow up questions.
1) I went to the Chinese website, I don't see a mention of external only - do you happen to know if they have that option?
2) The scars are definitely noticeable since they're dotted. I'd definitely have to have them worked on. Can you tell me if it was the same reason you had them redone? How soon realistically could you do the scar revision surgery?
3) Why did you go for tibia vs femur?
just to chime in..
how plausible are these non-surgical scar treatment modalities? eg, cortisone/5-FU/kenalog injections, chemical peels for the colouring, AHA/BHA creams to apply, kligman's formula or retin-A for the colouration, etc
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How soon realistically could you do the scar revision surgery?
you have to wait 6 months from frame removal. otherwise the scars can become keloid.
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some people quote issues with balance. is it a problem?
my second question: did you try strengthening your legs with plyometrics. It will only be a fair comparison if you have done everything you can to regain your leg strength (after all you been thru a harsh surgery). So after surgery, if you want to assess athletic performance I think you should try all you can before making a conclusion.. (and also wait a few years like you did). so my question is did you try to regain your leg strength and quickness, and how does it compare to pre-op (if you did plyometrics and all)
Balance is only very slightly worse, not a big deal.
I have tried doing plyometrics but my legs get so tired so quickly. I think it's a biomechanical issue; too much is being asked of the muscles.
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hey medium , do you think one person could run 50 meters in less than 8 seconds if he has done LL with longer tibias than femurs?
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Thanks, couple more follow up questions.
1) I went to the Chinese website, I don't see a mention of external only - do you happen to know if they have that option?
2) The scars are definitely noticeable since they're dotted. I'd definitely have to have them worked on. Can you tell me if it was the same reason you had them redone? How soon realistically could you do the scar revision surgery?
3) Why did you go for tibia vs femur?
If you were to ask for external-only, I think they would oblige. You might get charged extra for staying longer though, that is, if you stay there the whole time.
Yes, the reason I got the scars revised was because they were noticeable. I don't know of any reason why you'd have to wait a long time to do the scar revision surgery.
I went with tibia because that was Professor Xia's recommendation after examining my legs. He believes that an equal tibia:femur ratio is okay, and my tibiae were 3 inches shorter than my femurs.
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just to chime in..
how plausible are these non-surgical scar treatment modalities? eg, cortisone/5-FU/kenalog injections, chemical peels for the colouring, AHA/BHA creams to apply, kligman's formula or retin-A for the colouration, etc
None of those are actually going to make the scars into thin white lines like excision does. I don't have any experience with any of those methods.
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None of those are actually going to make the scars into thin white lines like excision does. I don't have any experience with any of those methods.
Yup excision might be the best bet.. but those modalities are pretty powerful. I had some puncture scars from liposuction.. hypertrophic. Steroid injections do wonders. then fade them with retin -A and all.
Regarding plyometrics, what was the problem? was it the muscles get sore and tired easily? that really sucks... Also, any issue with muscle response time after so many years?? Do you think, if you really wanted, you could do plyometrics and gradually build up?
Thank you for offering your perspectives after so long your surgery... You are very kind and helpful.
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Did you have inconvenient stuff happen to you such as vomiting or perhaps catching a flu? Never?
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Yup excision might be the best bet.. but those modalities are pretty powerful. I had some puncture scars from liposuction.. hypertrophic. Steroid injections do wonders. then fade them with retin -A and all.
Regarding plyometrics, what was the problem? was it the muscles get sore and tired easily? that really sucks... Also, any issue with muscle response time after so many years?? Do you think, if you really wanted, you could do plyometrics and gradually build up?
Thank you for offering your perspectives after so long your surgery... You are very kind and helpful.
Yeah, when I try those jumping exercises I'm slow and get fatigued really quickly. I don't know if I could gradually build up or not. I'm not a fan of high-impact exercises in the first place. Right now I'm doing HASfit's HIIT workouts which only have a little plyo in them.
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hey medium , do you think one person could run 50 meters in less than 8 seconds if he has done LL with longer tibias than femurs?
LL didn't affect my top speed, it affected my endurance. So if that person could do it before I think they could still do it after.
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Endurance how so? That's a bit of a concern because I'm a long distance runner
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Yeah, when I try those jumping exercises I'm slow and get fatigued really quickly. I don't know if I could gradually build up or not. I'm not a fan of high-impact exercises in the first place. Right now I'm doing HASfit's HIIT workouts which only have a little plyo in them.
Thanks MDOW. I will speak to more doctors regarding loss of athletic abilities.
You mentioned that muscle reaction time is slower?? Ie, the nerve fibres are not as active? Just wanna confirm did I get you right.
You seem to have a rather average starting tibia length, similar to mine. So if you did 7.5 cm and had problems with athleticism, I might decide to stop at 6-7 cm instead.
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MDoW some people have been talking of aging rapidly during the surgery. Did you notice anything like that?
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MDoW some people have been talking of aging rapidly during the surgery. Did you notice anything like that?
Not at all, that's just crazy talk.
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You mentioned that muscle reaction time is slower?? Ie, the nerve fibres are not as active? Just wanna confirm did I get you right.
It's not the nerve fibers or anything like that. It's just that a longer leg is more difficult to move. Imagine swinging a baseball bat. Now imagine that the bat is 3" longer. The bat is going to be more unwieldy and harder to swing. That's what happened to my legs. It's an anatomical issue.
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It's not the nerve fibers or anything like that. It's just that a longer leg is more difficult to move. Imagine swinging a baseball bat. Now imagine that the bat is 3" longer. The bat is going to be more unwieldy and harder to swing. That's what happened to my legs. It's an anatomical issue.
then wouldn't guys with naturally longer legs possibly have the same problem?
I think long tibias are very dangerous for jumping high especially if alignment is wrong. if you land wrongly, you might break a bone...
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I think guys with naturally longer legs have the musculature to handle the bodies they were born with. The unnatural addition of 3 inches, especially in adulthood, causes the issue.
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I read some posts from Medium Drink of Water in regards to his loss of agility and balance. I don't mean to be naive but, when you state loss of agility and balance are you specifically referring to like standing and being used to your 'new' legs? I can definitely understand somewhat the concept if you were to only lengthen your legs without lengthening your torso that things would start to become a bit off.
Secondly on agility, (this means a bit to me) do you guys have major problems with your limbs in athletics? I'd intend to continue working out at the gym, box, and run after an LL if I were to engage in such a procedure.
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Standing is fine. When moving around and twisting my body at an angle, such as when I get into and out of a car, I can sometimes wobble a tiny bit if I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing.
Your gym workouts likely won't be affected much if at all. Your running might be a little worse than it is now. I think your footspeed while boxing will take the biggest hit in terms of performance.
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Standing is fine. When moving around and twisting my body at an angle, such as when I get into and out of a car, I can sometimes wobble a tiny bit if I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing.
Your gym workouts likely won't be affected much if at all. Your running might be a little worse than it is now. I think your footspeed while boxing will take the biggest hit in terms of performance.
What's the wobbling like? Is it distracting and something noticeable?
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It's like slightly losing your balance. It's very mild.
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Better for balance is do tibia or femur?
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I don't think it matters. If your legs are getting longer by a certain amount, your center of gravity is getting raised the same amount regardless of which segment you're doing.
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Hey Mdow, I think it's great you have this thread as it's been so helpful to many members.
My questions is regarding your motivations to continue to visit the LL forums where many veterans usually move
on after a year and never heard from again. What keeps you coming back? Do you plan to have more LL in future?
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Originally I came back to LL forums because I wanted to write my diary/patient experience, which I didn't get a chance to do while I was doing LL because of my falling out with old forum. I stay a member here because I enjoy being part of the LL community. LL was a time of growth and change in my life, and hanging out with all you guys (and gals) brings some of that magic back. As long as people are still interested in what I have to say about LL, I'll continue to hang out here.
If I suddenly came into some money (this came up in the thread about winning the lottery,) I'd lengthen my femurs by 5cm to get to an even 6 feet tall. It's in the back of my mind would be cool to do, but I probably won't.
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If I suddenly came into some money (this came up in the thread about winning the lottery,) I'd lengthen my femurs by 5cm to get to an even 6 feet tall. It's in the back of my mind would be cool to do, but I probably won't.
Having read what you've posted on your proportions I think it would be a good idea. You said you have a knee height of 60cm at 178cm tall which is the average knee height of a man who is 190cm. (http://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm)
I haven't seen any pictures of you or what your wingspan/torso length is like but it would balance you out a bit more I believe.
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here is a shallow question.
Did LL changed in any way your success with girls? Or men (if you are a girl or gay)?
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here is a shallow question.
Did LL changed in any way your success with girls? Or men (if you are a girl or gay)?
Haha I love how you're non-discriminatory when it comes to homosexuality.
... i don't think that gay men have the same inclinations towards height as do females.
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What was the recovery period like after your fasciotomy for CECS? I'm hoping it won't be necessary for me later, but who knows once I start running again. I wouldn't be surprised if I get CECS since I already had thick calf muscles and lengthening probably increased the risk of it.
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It's been a month without you buddy. Hope things are going well for you. (I'm sure they are mate)
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Sorry but what is CECS ?
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https://lmgtfy.com/?q=CECS+legs
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ahahahahahah well done mat e ;D