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Author Topic: Permanent effects of LL  (Read 123814 times)

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Uppland

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Permanent effects of LL
« on: January 12, 2015, 03:34:47 PM »

I want to renew the discussion of permanent effects because I think people on here are too optimistic -naive- even about what this surgery means. The general consensus seems to be: "I'tll be tough but I'm going to get through it and then I'll enjoy being tall for the rest of my life -who cares about muscle stiffness or knee pain I was never into sports anyway."

Not only will this mindset lead to a rude awekening but it can be outright dangerous as stated in this thread: http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=680.0

Limb lenghtening is dangerous, it can even be life-threatening here are a number of common complications that can occour. Each one is quite unlikely but altogether there is a very real chance that one or more of these will happen to you:

Quote
- nerve damage (numbness, altered sensation, painful supersensitivity (from neuromas formations),
- paralysis, or reduced motor function or response times, especially in high level sports);
- pain and stiffness from internal trauma and scarring;
- bio mechanical load changes and it's added load stresses on joints (back, hip, knees, and ankles) leading to pain and possible early Arthritis
- reduced Athletic response time and abilities;
- permanent muscle / adipose tissue damage / atrophy; mobility issues; reduced agility;
- osteoporosis and increased chances of osteochonral lesions;
- lingering aches and pains months or years, or even a lifetime after the lengthening is complete and you say Good Bye to your CLL doctor.etc."

The scary part is that this can happen to anyone regardless if you pay a million euros or 5 thousand. It has happened in Germany and the US so we aren't safe just because we go with a respected surgeon.

Even if you make it through unscathed you will never recover fully -well you might if you only do 2CM but then what's the point?
No you will have hurt your body in a very real sense and in such a way that no doctor can ever fix it. I know a lot of you might think that you can deal with some issues and that it's a worthy trade-off for that extra height but will you think that 6 years from now, or 10? -Remember this is forever it can't be undone.

Some of us think it's possible to recover completely -100%- you're just as good as you were and you've still got all the potential you once had- Well maybe it can be done afterall Shyshy says he had but for every success story there are three other like Sweden who feels he has destroyed his body and replaced it with regret -and for everone of him there are five other diaries who just end abruptly with no follow-up and it gets moved to the back of the list never mentioned again.

What happens to these people? I like to think the just move on with their life and forget the whole thing but who can say. If you fell into a depression because you now move like a 60-year old or people avoid you because you look like a freak or worst case scenario you've lost a leg -would you really continue to update your thread on a small internet forum?

These things worry me because even though I am tall by this sites standard I don't see a very happy future for me at this height and yet what if I do this surgery and I regret it? I don't have a bad life but it needs improvement in this one area -the question is: is it worth the risks and can I deal with the effects?

Guys, can we really live a life like someone who was naturally tall after LL or will we always be a bit damaged, always be slightly crippled and always a bit of an abomination?

And an addition: maybe I'm not the one to talk but you guys that are 183CM or above you've already got a respectable height are you reall certain this is all worth it? I know I wouldn't do it if I were 185CM.
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Moubgf

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 03:56:36 PM »

OK. you win.. Everybody that was about to do this surgery. Cancel it.

You are talking to deaf ears. It does not matter. Is like when your hungry. You might put it off for sometime. But you will eat inevitably orelse you die inside.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 04:22:08 PM by Slim_tim »
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Uppland

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 04:46:02 PM »

But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.
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GeTs

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 04:51:11 PM »

This should be addressed to Ajax/endomorphisme
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Moubgf

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 04:52:59 PM »

But this is serious it's a life altering decision. I refuse to believe people on here don't want to discuss stuff like this -it's more important than all the pointless arguments about girls and threads about what women care about. We can go to a relationships forum for that crap this site is supposed to be about discussing the surgery.

The subjects are intertwined, one string fits to the other. I find this thread more pointless because as i said i could give 2 flies about the consequences others might not agree with me but i doubt it.

I've been a member for 5 years ive seen it all inside out. all the old school diaries. I get the feeling you are new here and think that this thread is somewhat revelation to the majority of members but its not. It just states the obvious. sorry.
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ForcedPuberty

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 05:05:31 PM »

take a look at the poll for itsmylifes diary.

the statistic never seems to change.

40% believe in 5-6cm
20% believe in 6-7cm
20% believe in 7-8cm
20% believe in 8-9cm

this is the very reason why so many people get fked up. the second reason is because we all know soft tissue cant go past 0.66mm per day and NO MUTHERfkER STICKS TO IT.

instead they (ultimately do an average of 0.66mm perday) but destroy their body 1 day at a time by over lengthening on a daily basis, they think they are fine during this process because they mask the symptoms of the damage with massive levels of pain killers. ultimately they are fking their body up.

I can tell you with certainty the body can not lengthen past this level unless you use medication to lie to yourself about how fast you can lengthen. when you do something bad the body produces pain to tell you to fking stop. my doctor will not give me any pain killers and I tell you now going above 0.66 is impossible. because your body screams to stop this madness. the same for going above 5cm in total length.

I have never seen a diary where someone did 5cm or less and had permanent damage. with a good doctor. and lengthened 0.66mm per day every single day.

the problem is that people need to be informed about how serious this surgery is. but NOOOOOO every stupid mutherfker comes here wanting to lengthen 20cm, and then ultimately decides on less but still decide to do too much. the problem is greed. people are greedy they want to complete the surgery as fast as possible and want to lengthen the maximum as possible.

greed needs to end.
6cm tibia is the MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.
external femur 5cm MAX LIMIT. not a mm more.

internal femur...... I cant answer. but every stupid nobody who does answer will answer this question with greed in their mind wanting it to be as high as possible. and that again is the problem. your body has limits.

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Nope, 20cm is just nope.

"because FP's the hero LL Forum deserves, but not the one is needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. because hes not the hero. He's a silent gardian, watchfull protector. The Dark Knight."

endomorphisme

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 05:44:22 PM »

you won't recover completely, some people may think they are fully recovered because they are not athletic, and i think 4 cm is pretty safe with a good doctor  and if you follow his recommendations, but people on the forum call you retard because they consider 4 cm is not worth it.
Overall i agree, i'm more concerned by the risks than money and proportions
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paco1

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015, 06:18:53 PM »

Hi forcedpuberty in which country aro you do lengthening?
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joax

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 06:41:00 PM »

I'm also very interested about this topic and rest assured that Slim_tim's response is not representative of the entire forum. I believe that we should compile more data (complications, etc) from diaries and other sources so we know exactly what we're getting into.
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Uppland

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2015, 07:59:35 PM »

Yeah we should try to move this forum in a more serious direction instead of resting it between a forum for serious discussion and a community of short folks complaining about women and disrespectful friends.

I've come to respect Forced puberty, even though he can be a bit crude, because he actually brings up relevant information and he at least seems to know what he's talking about. The thing he said about not lenghtening over 0,66mm per day is very interesting but is it possible todo that while avoiding premature consolidation?

Also the safe limits are important I think staying below 7CM with internal femur and below 5CM in the tibia is key -won't even bother adressing ext. femur. The less -the safer. We also should do a better job of cautioning people that have excessive goals in mind for their own good.

As for Slim_Tim I know this has been discussed before but there is still no consensus. Until we have at least guidelines that will help ensure a reasonable recovery I'll continue making threads like this. Also: an important topic like this needs to be an ongoing discussion as we successively learn more about how we can stay as safe as possible.
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crimsontide

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2015, 09:35:27 PM »

you guys, especially the ones that never did lengthening are simply wrong... there are no definites first of all


i lengthened over 7 cm... i lewngthened more than .66 mm a day often...


guess what... I'm in no pain, and on no painkillers... ill see dr agaon on wed, but i'm pretty sure im ok

I can already walk. etc etc

i might need to realign my left leg, which is a bit annoying, but other than that... and a very tiny amount of numbness that seems to be going away(already cant even notice it unless i consciuously think of it)... and  it has zero impact on function


Will I be 100%... well, Considering the fact that I, as well as most others, never pushed our bodies to ithe maximum anyway, I doubt it even matters

For most people, while technically they will  not be 100%, for all intents and purposes, they will not even notice theres a difference


the people that have done ll, ask them if they regret it, almost all will confidently say no...


I know I don't regret it... even with the potential of fixing one last issue... for me to regret it, I'd have to suffer loss of a limb or  motor function


Being short sucks
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123

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2015, 10:01:23 PM »

I had LL so maybe you want to here my experience about that.

If you have a good doc you will be completely healed after a certain time, once the bone is fully consolidated you will be same as pre op, just like after a normal broken bone. But of course things can happen, but they rarely happen and if you have a competent doc, he will fix them. I walk like pre-OP 11 months after my first OP, no one can tell that I had a big operation, because I walk completely normal.

If it's worth it though? I'm not sure, even though I'm average now and that I feel tall at 178cm (with shoes) and I live where the average height is 179cm, so I really enjoy that but 1 year is a long time. Would I do LL at this height? Not even if I got paid millions, I can promise you that. I realized that this height thing is more of a mental problem, I felt like a king at 165cm because I never thought about height, but when I started to think about it and read on bull  forums like this I started to get problems.

So my tip to you is get off this forum like I did (well sometimes I come and read some things when I'm really bored, but I'm not as active as I used to be) and forget about height because you are fine and please don't come with this bull  excuse like "I'm from Sweden hurr durr" it's nonsense and you know that.

But I would still recommend this for people who are around 165cm, even though you suffer a lot, being average feels really nice and with some Nike Air-Max, phuuu, you will feel awesome. And this is coming from a guy who had probably one of the "easiest" LL you can imagine, no complications, a really really good doc, support from my whole family and friends, I did LL at my home and many many more positive things most of the people who do LL didn't have the pleasure to have. But this is just my advice, do what you want with this.

Maybe I'll be back another time. Good luck and enjoy your life guys :)
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crimsontide

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 10:10:51 PM »

I agree with 123

It's definitely worth it, if you're as tall as I was..

I would not think about ll at my current height
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Uppland

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2015, 10:36:46 PM »

Alright thanks for the answers and I can definitely relate to height-neurosis being a mental thing -I used to feel just great about myself as well.

Crimsontide are you saying that it is mostly individual and some people have problems and some people don't? Are there some things that can help your recovery and are there complications that can arise later after the surgery?

123 what doctor did you go to and do you have any tips for people that haven't done the operation yet?
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Outgrown

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 10:39:36 PM »

It comes out of two ways - either you're cured or crippled.

Flip a coin
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123

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 10:58:15 PM »

Alright thanks for the answers and I can definitely relate to height-neurosis being a mental thing -I used to feel just great about myself as well.

Crimsontide are you saying that it is mostly individual and some people have problems and some people don't? Are there some things that can help your recovery and are there complications that can arise later after the surgery?

123 what doctor did you go to and do you have any tips for people that haven't done the operation yet?

I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times  ;D

But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.
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LifeReloaded

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 11:02:23 PM »

It comes out of two ways - either you're cured or crippled.

Flip a coin

even with a good doctor like Paley/Guichet and training your flexibility months before?? This is nonsense...

The real answer is that it varies by the individual. If you are athletic, exercise and stretch regularly, have a good doctor doing the procedure, and have a positive outlook during lengthening, you will find it very rewarding. I myself haven't lengthened yet but from reading the diaries of ppl that were lengthened by good doctors, I can tell that you will be more happy if you put 100% effort into it and focus on your goal.

I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.

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Outgrown

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 11:15:01 PM »

even with a good doctor like Paley/Guichet and training your flexibility months before?? This is nonsense...

The real answer is that it varies by the individual. If you are athletic, exercise and stretch regularly, have a good doctor doing the procedure, and have a positive outlook during lengthening, you will find it very rewarding. I myself haven't lengthened yet but from reading the diaries of ppl that were lengthened by good doctors, I can tell that you will be more happy if you put 100% effort into it and focus on your goal.

I don't get why so many people on this forum have a self-defeating attitude of potentially being "crippled" and worry about all the possible complications in the world. Get off your ass, and train your legs and flexibility at least a year before your surgery. Stay active. If lengthening was easy, then everyone would be doing it but it takes hard work and if you're not willing to give it your all, then frankly you don't deserve to be taller in the first place.



Mentally

It's mostly a mental game. We created this in our heads, and can only be resolved in our heads, which is altered by our experiences.

It's our choice to take and decrease the risks as much as possible through quality effort and treatment.

However, it's only to create the experience in our effort and image to put the beholder in ourselves.
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crimsontide

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 11:47:25 PM »

uppland,

i'm saying that almost everyone comes out ok

I don't see many diaries of those tat went india  regretting it... the majority are ok


I personally did nothing special to prepare, and hardly walked while lengthening... I know medium drink has said he rarely walked too, and he's ok as well...


there are drs in russia and india that do the operation correctly....And getting it done  in europe or america dosnt guarantee zero complications...

this operation is actually relatively simple.... and the correction I might need to get even simpler


ilizarov in particular has been around a while now, and extensivelystudied ... as long as you find a dr that has a good ammount of experience, you will be ok


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programdude

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 12:35:58 AM »

Looking forward to weighing in as I recover.

Having done 8 CM, I can say for starters that my fully healed legs leg press and movements feel great.

My only issue is some pain in lower left leg and rather tight hip flexors with duckass, both of which should likely be resolved soon.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

ItsMyLife

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 01:05:24 AM »

was it 8 cm taking into account any pin bending?

apparently some people lose 3-5 mm.

please do let us know if you can still run..problems with nerve injury has been documented by paley et  al, the common peroneal nerve.. which may result in delayed athletic response times,etc
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ItsMyLife

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 01:19:55 AM »

uppland,

i'm saying that almost everyone comes out ok

I don't see many diaries of those tat went india  regretting it... the majority are ok


I personally did nothing special to prepare, and hardly walked while lengthening... I know medium drink has said he rarely walked too, and he's ok as well...


there are drs in russia and india that do the operation correctly....And getting it done  in europe or america dosnt guarantee zero complications...

this operation is actually relatively simple.... and the correction I might need to get even simpler


ilizarov in particular has been around a while now, and extensivelystudied ... as long as you find a dr that has a good ammount of experience, you will be ok

i agree..
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Uppland

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 02:04:06 AM »

@123 That is actually great advice, I'll admit I am a bit nervous of how the doctor will react -he certainly will not perform the operation on me as it is illegal for cosmetic reasons here but whatever he could tell me helps thanks for the tip.

@crimsontide I'm sorry but what do you mean with "ok" I have accepted that the surgery may be with me my whole life but I couldn't accept not being able to do stuff like climbing mountains, running long distances, skiing on steep slopes etc. That would make me feel cippled even if I technically wasn't. So that's what I'm really worried about.

Of course I would do everything in my power to recover best I could. I'll start stretching tomorrow actually -as soon as I learn what kind of stretches I should do. Does anyone know?
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programdude

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 02:57:07 AM »

was it 8 cm taking into account any pin bending?

apparently some people lose 3-5 mm.

please do let us know if you can still run..problems with nerve injury has been documented by paley et  al, the common peroneal nerve.. which may result in delayed athletic response times,etc

Went with internal femurs.
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Dr. Paley Patient- Surgery completed successfully on July 22nd
My Diary for those who want a real play by play to know what to expect:http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=733.0

Starting height: 5 8
End Height-:5 11 +

Moubgf

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2015, 03:16:34 AM »

I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times  ;D

But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.

whats the name of the doctor who did your surgery? /pm
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ItsMyLife

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2015, 03:30:11 AM »

@123 That is actually great advice, I'll admit I am a bit nervous of how the doctor will react -he certainly will not perform the operation on me as it is illegal for cosmetic reasons here but whatever he could tell me helps thanks for the tip.

@crimsontide I'm sorry but what do you mean with "ok" I have accepted that the surgery may be with me my whole life but I couldn't accept not being able to do stuff like climbing mountains, running long distances, skiing on steep slopes etc. That would make me feel cippled even if I technically wasn't. So that's what I'm really worried about.

Of course I would do everything in my power to recover best I could. I'll start stretching tomorrow actually -as soon as I learn what kind of stretches I should do. Does anyone know?

how long are u post-op? and how many months post frame removal?
once u can do contact sports, try plyometrics.... it builds up muscle reaction times, speed and power....
but i just read disturbing information from paley et al that nerve damage might result in slow reaction times for the muscles..
very disturbing
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Disobedient

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2015, 12:28:47 PM »

I won't tell you the name of my doc because privacy reason and even if I did, he doesn't do LL on people above 160cm, I was a rare exception. My tip would be not to do it at all but I think I told you that a few times  ;D

But I want to help you, so just choose your doc carefully, there isn't really something else you can do, you will be completely depended on him. So don't to India, Russia or whatever. Do it in Sweden, go to your nearest hospital and arrange a date with an orthopedic and talk with him. He will be happy to help, maybe you get lucky like I did and he will do it on you and if not, you can ask him all the questions instead of wasting your time on this forum talking to incompetent people. Or ask your personal doc for the best leg deformity surgeon in your area and that you want to talk to him or with some orthopedics about LL, just do it like I did. No need to be ashamed of that, do that or you will end up somewhere in India and you will regret LL for the rest of your life.


are you the same 12345 in the old forum ?
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123

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2015, 02:02:50 PM »


are you the same 12345 in the old forum ?

No.
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ReadRothbard

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2015, 04:33:56 PM »

I doubt there are any long-term effects from ll with a good doctor, safe protocols, etc. The little research that exists in area of cosmetic ll seems to show that there are few-to-no long-term effects of the procedure. As for Sweden, it's important to remember that he got his surgery with Dr. Sarin the butcher.
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Uppland

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2015, 06:53:14 PM »

I doubt there are any long-term effects from ll with a good doctor, safe protocols, etc. The little research that exists in area of cosmetic ll seems to show that there are few-to-no long-term effects of the procedure. As for Sweden, it's important to remember that he got his surgery with Dr. Sarin the butcher.

Well that is true but I also feel like it's the norm on this forum to gloss over the real negative and focusing on the gain. It's a coping strategy I understand but I don't want us to ever get to the point where we ignore serious concerns like motor function, nerve damage, permanent pain etc.

It does happen: Medium Drink has knee pain and reduced fatigue maybe nothing too serious but it will still be with him for the rest of his life. Sweden has reduced motor function and agility -he had a bad experience sure but those can happen with all doctors. I'm sure Sweden walked into Dr Sarins office thinking he was in safe hands.

Some of the brightest diaries like OBG's feauture videos that show him moving seemingly like normal and yet he says he only regained 75-80% of his running ability after two years -he did 6CM internal femur and is considered one of the more successful ones.

This is a life altering surgery -hopefully for the better but I, at least, want to be very clear about what I'm walking in to before I go for it.
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endomorphisme

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Re: Permanent effects of LL
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2015, 07:14:25 PM »

Well that is true but I also feel like it's the norm on this forum to gloss over the real negative and focusing on the gain. It's a coping strategy I understand but I don't want us to ever get to the point where we ignore serious concerns like motor function, nerve damage, permanent pain etc.

It does happen: Medium Drink has knee pain and reduced fatigue maybe nothing too serious but it will still be with him for the rest of his life. Sweden has reduced motor function and agility -he had a bad experience sure but those can happen with all doctors. I'm sure Sweden walked into Dr Sarins office thinking he was in safe hands.

Some of the brightest diaries like OBG's feauture videos that show him moving seemingly like normal and yet he says he only regained 75-80% of his running ability after two years -he did 6CM internal femur and is considered one of the more successful ones.

This is a life altering surgery -hopefully for the better but I, at least, want to be very clear about what I'm walking in to before I go for it.

80 percent is not that bad, but both did 7 cm which is maybe too much, especially for tibia.
I hope there will be more people who will do 4 or 5 cm, this is what i'm aiming for, so i need to know if it's safer or not.
And oldiebutgoldie has not updated his diary for 4 months, i hope he will catches us up on his recovery
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