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[FutureLengthener]

Like all of you guys, I'm not happy with my height and want to lengthen to improve my chances in love and the business world. But just today I was thinking about all the other things men can be insecure about. Their weight, receding hairlines, their hook noses, weak chins, etc. Men with those problems dwell on them them and even join forums and consider surgeries to fix them, just like us. They're convinced that if I can just fix that one flaw, I'll be set for life.

Thinking about that, I started wondering if height is really just a small part of the whole package that makes us attractive to women or be taken seriously. A lot of women who say they want tall men might just want to be saying that instead of a rich man to seem a little less shallow. As long as you're at least a centimeter taller than your GF/wife, you can still feel like the bigger one and keep a traditional gender role.

At the same time, height does feel like an important thing, like it maybe really is the end all-be all of self improvement. Being taller commands respect and the halo effect makes people assume you are also strong and smart. Of course tall men have it the best, but average men (where most of us hope to be after LL) are spared from so much of the flak short men get. If I were to put benefits from height on a scale, I would say short men get 0, average men get 4, and tall ones get 5 or 6, does that sound realistic?

[Uppland]

It's not the end all be all of attractivness. It works a little something like this:

-The vast majority of women are much more attracted to men that are noticebly taller than them.

-Some women have a height fetisch and like much taller men.

-A small minorit of women don't care either way.

-A vast majority of women are moderately more attractived to tall men i.e not just taller than they are but objectively tall.

As for respect in private and professional life it should work kind of like this:

-If you are taller than most other men you will be more noticeable -this is usually for the better as it provides oppertunity in all things.

-The taller you are the more intimidating you are.

-When you are tall you will be more respected.

-Much like attractive people a tall height will make people more prone to like you subconciously.

-It is a characteristic that encourages leadership

[KiloKAHN]

Being tall can be pretty rough. For every attractive woman that is into you there are at least 5 that look like this.

[FutureLengthener]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Uppland. Every inch I lengthen opens more doors. I'm just curious, whats your starting height and lengthening goals?

When I hear Apo's story and how much the 20cm or whatever changed his life, I wonder if proportions are so important..I'd never do that much because I'm too cautious, but outside of the LL community, it seems people care a lot about height, but barely at all about whether it comes from legs or torsos.. of course they notice extreme proportions, but it doesn't seem like long legs on men actually are a turn off to women per se.

[TomD]

We live in a reality based world. Not the world we want to believe is real.

Ask a woman what the most attractive quality in a man is? They will all say 'confidence'. What gives a man the most confidence? His fundamental size. His strength. His masculinity. His ability to 'measure up' against other men and in the world in which he lives in.

 We all know first hand even if we try to be confident, we invariably get slapped down. I have spent my life trying to be an Alpha Male and it was like rowing upstream with a small paddle. People wont take you seriously. They fundamentally  dont think you deserve to be the Alpha Male.

What do men find the most attractive in women? Their confidence. What makes a woman confident? Her femininity. When I was in college , I accidently went into a feminist class . You can always tell the feminist class. All the ugly, fat , lesbian or hurt women with an axe to grind. Never any babes . Why? Babes have no problem with femininity . So I popped in and asked 'Hi ladies, do you know where room 8A is'?

The screeching cascade of foaming at the mouth I received for calling them something as misogynist as 'ladies' rained upon me and I beat a hasty retreat.
I have always wondered if I was 6ft 2 and on the football team would I have received such a childish reaction or would they have been forced to be nice to me because of my looks. No doubt the latter.

We men put up will all kinds of crap from sexy women but will blow off ugly woman without a care in the world about their feelings or their point of view.

Admit it. We do. So it stands to reason we get the same treatment. Short men are unattractive to woman and so they have no reason to be nice to us if they don't feel like it.

In the end? All I ever ended up doing was 'accepting' second rate women and a second rate social standing because I was.........well, second rate. Obviously that bothers us , as we are here on this site prepared to break our damn legs over it.

[Blackhawk]

You make a lot of good points.

I have also spent much of my life trying to be alpha.  It is like rowing upstream when you are less than about 5'9" in the U. S.

When do you plan on doing LL TomD?

[KiloKAHN]

Does everybody need to be alpha though? Surely people can be happy without being the prime focus of attention in a group.

[GeTs]

Being tall can be pretty rough. For every attractive woman that is into you there are at least 5 that look like this.

Kill with fire

[GeTs]

Does everybody need to be alpha though? Surely people can be happy without being the prime focus of attention in a group.

u're more Alpha t'han these bunch of pussies

[TomD]

Does everybody need to be alpha though? Surely people can be happy without being the prime focus of attention in a group.

There is no extreme like that. It doesnt work that way.

There isnt  ONE Alpha male out of a whole group. There is a tier of them. A whole social class.

As for being happy, you dont need to do LL surgery to be happy either, if you are willing to accept certain realities.

If we are here ready to break our legs over it, apparently we are not very happy about it.

[TomD]

You make a lot of good points.

I have also spent much of my life trying to be alpha.  It is like rowing upstream when you are less than about 5'9" in the U. S.

When do you plan on doing LL TomD?

If I had my way I would go to Paley but that costs too much. I thought about India or Russia but India's reputation is still dubious and the Russian / American tensions are worrysome for me. I may not even get a visa.

China looks ok but I am still unconvinced as of yet. I like the Spanish doctor who does all internals and one leg at a time but I would like to hear more about it from the doctor.

Its only 66k euros for all 4 limbs in 2 stages. I am seriously considering it if all the potential side effects and concerns about 1 leg at a time are answered.

What about you?

[kunta kinte]

Being tall can be pretty rough. For every attractive woman that is into you there are at least 5 that look like this.

maaaaaaaaaaan, thats just. . . where did you find that thing?

[Blackhawk]

If I had my way I would go to Paley but that costs too much. I thought about India or Russia but India's reputation is still dubious and the Russian / American tensions are worrysome for me. I may not even get a visa.

China looks ok but I am still unconvinced as of yet. I like the Spanish doctor who does all internals and one leg at a time but I would like to hear more about it from the doctor.

Its only 66k euros for all 4 limbs in 2 stages. I am seriously considering it if all the potential side effects and concerns about 1 leg at a time are answered.

What about you?

I agree that china and Russia aren't good options right now.  I am still considering India but I need more evidence to support going there.  Dr Birkholtz seems like a good option in South Africa.  If I have the money, maybe paley, Betz or Guichet.

[Uppland]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Uppland. Every inch I lengthen opens more doors. I'm just curious, whats your starting height and lengthening goals?

When I hear Apo's story and how much the 20cm or whatever changed his life, I wonder if proportions are so important..I'd never do that much because I'm too cautious, but outside of the LL community, it seems people care a lot about height, but barely at all about whether it comes from legs or torsos.. of course they notice extreme proportions, but it doesn't seem like long legs on men actually are a turn off to women per se.

178-9CM tall and I wanna get to 186CM. I'm playing with the idea to get arm lenghtening surgery and go all the way to 189-190CM

[Ajax2thousand20]

I agree that china and Russia aren't good options right now.  I am still considering India but I need more evidence to support going there.  Dr Birkholtz seems like a good option in South Africa.  If I have the money, maybe paley, Betz or Guichet.

Would I be able to finance Birkholtz via my bank? I know it's $52000 and I make $30k but you never know.

[ShortDude]

I know this is a very prehistoric thread, but I felt obliged to reply and give my opinion here. This opinion is based off observations I've had throughout the years.

As we all know, every boy as he grows up is conscious about how big he is compared to his peers. For children, they want to grow up big, strong, tall, and be a "grown-up". Socially, there are bound to be comparisons / discussions about children's heights by both parents and adults in numerous ways:

• The boys themselves do in fact compare themselves to other boys in terms of height and height growth. It's just a normal part of growing up as a guy.
• There will always be comments by others about our height. Relatives, neighbors, family friends might say to a tall(er) boy during a family gathering, "Oh, Billy has grown so tall since we have seen him".
• Short(er) guys will always get bull*hit comments about "not drinking enough milk" or "not exercising and stretching your legs", while often putting a blind eye to the fact that it's pretty much just genetics (Even the adults know this deep down, but don't want to admit it to children).

But at the same time, there aren't discussions about boys' faces / handsomeness. How his face looks. At least not to the same level. Nor is there discussion about boys losing hair (this happens well past puberty and mainly when boys become adults).

In addition, it's hard to measure facial attractiveness too. While height is an easily measurable thing.

And keep in mind, out of all of this, it also depends on how short the guy is.

Through these children's development, there are bound to be short(er) men who grow up to have attractive facial features along with short(er) men who just aren't facially attractive and have unattractive facial features and traits. During the pre-teen and teenage years, I envision three types of short boys:

• Short boys who are handsome and they know it. They are men who have gotten attention in HS. Sure, they weren't every girl's cup of tea, but they did get some attention and validation, and probably had romantic relationships too.
• Short boys who are handsome and they know it but are unhappy that they aren't appealing to all women, or simply just still subconscious about their height just from growing up as a boy. Nonetheless, they also get attention, romantic relationships, etc., but just don't have as much general appeal.
• Short boys who aren't facially unattractive but aren't self-aware of that. But they might have gotten comments about their height, and/or compared themselves to other boys (and even girls) in terms of height. These types of boys might just be oblivious to the big factor that is their face, and only fixate their assessment of their lack of appeal to their height.
• Short boys who are facially unattractive and fully aware of this brutal reality.

Don't get me wrong, being short is BRUTAL as a guy in terms of its impact to attraction to women. I mean, just look at this graph:



Let's say a guy is at the average American woman's height, which is 64 inches tall (5'4" or 162cm), according to this graph, it says that only 10% of women would accept a potential male partner at that height. I actually believe that data. But some guys in category 3 which I mentioned completely overblow the lack of appeal to women and act like only 0.00000000001% of women would genuinely be interested in them, while ignoring how their face looks. 10% is brutal, but it is still sizeable where you could find love if you have a "good enough" face in my opinion, which is something that category 1 guys might end up getting / doing.

I guess for saying this, I'll be told that I have "toxic optimism", but I don't care. I don't think I'm toxically optimistic either. Toxic optimism is saying that a "ugly and short guy can rizz up any girl provided that he has personality, and confidence" which we all know is nonsense.

A lot of men are oblivious to this, since hell, when it's even acceptable for adults to comment on children's (especially boys') heights openly and casually, why wouldn't grown-ass women in their 20s do it? That's why we have tweets and TikToks of women openly shaming / putting down short(er) men.

I know there are some men who want to be appealing to all women. And I'm not here to judge them for that, even though I'd personally be content with having a pool of even a few women who were heavily into me (it's never, ever happening to me though with my abomination of a face and height, even if I "fix" my height as my face will still be just... bad). But I understand that some people are mentally built differently, as humans are not only physically very different from each other, but emotionally too.

[sphenopetroclival]

It's not the end all be all of attractivness. It works a little something like this:

-The vast majority of women are much more attracted to men that are noticebly taller than them.

-Some women have a height fetisch and like much taller men.

-A small minorit of women don't care either way.

-A vast majority of women are moderately more attractived to tall men i.e not just taller than they are but objectively tall.

As for respect in private and professional life it should work kind of like this:

-If you are taller than most other men you will be more noticeable -this is usually for the better as it provides oppertunity in all things.

-The taller you are the more intimidating you are.

-When you are tall you will be more respected.

-Much like attractive people a tall height will make people more prone to like you subconciously.

-It is a characteristic that encourages leadership

“The Nail That Sticks Out Gets Hammered”

Can you really say a performant society optimizes for height; if that criteria would cause one to stick out? History looks a bit different from what it is you seem to be projecting.

[sphenopetroclival]

Being tall can be pretty rough. For every attractive woman that is into you there are at least 5 that look like this.

As if they were involved at the Lebensborn program (laughable outcomes) and had the ability to predictably sway the genetics at a given (performant) direction . If only people like that could optimize for intelligence we’d be a bit further along in terms of medical technology and tech in general.  Perhaps they should direct their efforts to a novel genetics PhD program if they’re interested in becoming gene surgeons. I’d suggest working with Andrew Fire ar Stanford, the Quake lab or perhaps even peeps at the rock hall at UCSF.

[Sorcerer]

Does everybody need to be alpha though? Surely people can be happy without being the prime focus of attention in a group.

I really can't get why some people put so much emphasis on being the focus of a group. I even hate being that but I guess that's just because I have a different personality.

[LG1816]

I also feel that any desire to be alpha invariably means a person will not be. I doubt the sorts of people we've all seen, those that have a quality that commands the room, have never actively sought to be that way -- they just are.

It also feeds into this idea of what confidence is as it relates to being 'alpha'. If we're analyzing this through the lens of height, it stands to reason that tall people are naturally more confident because of the way people have treated them on the basis of being tall.

Whichever way you look at the concept, though, this infatuation with being/becoming alpha that we see in these Red Pill movements is sickeningly cringe.