Limb Lengthening Forum
Limb Lengthening Surgery => Limb Lengthening Discussions => Topic started by: OverrideYouGenetics on February 17, 2014, 09:27:37 PM
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It seems, more and more people are now waking up and preferring recovery and athleticism.
Our targets are no longer 8,9,10 cms in one limb but rather 5 cm in femur and tibs.
I think this is good. It is just silly to ruin your body just to reach a silly dream created by the the discrimination that we have endured.
What really opened my eyes were;
OldiebutGoldie (6cm) doing skiing just like that. He looked so normal and so recovered, yet it wasnt even 1 year post-op!
Crazy+6 (9cm or something), guy never recovered.
Apotheosis and Tall (did 20cm on two surgeries) - they are both shy of posting videoes. Apo/sysop is posting some strange jogging video which looks so weird.
Few other horror examples from india which I wont mention.
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That seems to be the process of most who find out about CLL. When I first found out about it years ago I had the thought of doing 10cm per segment, but the more I read the more my goals continued to drop. I'm targeting 5.5 cm at max for my tibias. The ones who do extreme lengthening have extreme cases of height neurosis to the point where logic is thrown out the window. Really, what good is 20 cm if you're left with the body of a worn out old man?
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what good is 20 cm if you're left with the body of a worn out old man?
Beautifully said.
With LL, we have the ability to improve our life drastically. Let's not fk it up now by getting greedy!
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In a way, I thank them 20cm-ers for showing us not to follow them.
It's just amazing how the old forum advocates more, and more.
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In a way, I thank them 20cm-ers for showing us not to follow them.
It's just amazing how the old forum advocates more, and more.
Yes and no. On the one hand, Sysop/Apotheosis does repeat that people probably shouldn't do more than a certain amount on each segment and not follow his example. On the other hand, more people on that forum are potentially going to become delusional in terms of thinking that they can do 20 cm since Sysop downplays or doesn't address problems I'm sure he's having. I think he's fooling himself thinking he'll make a full recovery, but no skin off my nose if he wants to do so.
It is funny to take a step back and see how messed up old forum is, though. I remember a post where Sysopotheosis said "I'm glad that all of the dumbasses that I've banned now have a place to congregate and spread misinformation about LL" and I was thinking that's very ironic considering that he and his right-hand man Crazy+6 are people who have done pretty much everything that experienced limb lengthening surgeons tell their patients they shouldn't do. Combine that with old forum 's karma and title system which both inflate everyone's egos and encourages threads where 20 people answer a question by saying "shut up and read the diaries" in the hopes one of the "vets" will give them a karma boost, and you have one train wreck of a forum.
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I remember the past, whenever he posted, it's like an all-knowing, narcissistic statements about CLL.
But now I notice that whenever he posts, it's more non-confrontational kumbayas.
He's feeling the heat that old forum might not survive with the status quo.
It is funny to take a step back and see how messed up old forum is, though... I remember a post where Sysopotheosis said "I'm glad that all of the dumbasses that I've banned now have a place to congregate and spread misinformation about LL" ...
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Crazy+6 did 10+ cm, I believe.... According to an old diary, it says he went from 5'4 to 5'11.... If he did this all in one surgery, I can understand why recovery would be next to impossible. That is a lot of lengthening for one surgery.
"I think this is good. It is just silly to ruin your body just to reach a silly dream created by the the discrimination that we have endured."
I think a lot of people get disillusioned by reality once they find out the truth. When I first found LL several years ago via old forum , I was one of those people that thought I could do 11 or 12 cm like the people writing those diaries. I was completely unaware that people doing that many cm were either going to end up crippled and disabled for the rest of their lives or end up with very off proportions. I understand that there are people out there that are trying to be 6'0 and beyond when they're 5'3 or 5'4 but it isn't realistic. I would rather be average height, than to be 6'0 tall and unable to half walk. I am blessed that I realized and found the truth before I put myself through such trials and tribulations.
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I like that there are doctors like Dr Franz who won't make a six footer out of a 5'4" guy.
I think a lot of people get disillusioned by reality once they find out the truth. When I first found LL several years ago via old forum , I was one of those people that thought I could do 11 or 12 cm like the people writing those diaries. I was completely unaware that people doing that many cm were either going to end up crippled and disabled for the rest of their lives or end up with very off proportions. I understand that there are people out there that are trying to be 6'0 and beyond when they're 5'3 or 5'4 but it isn't realistic. I would rather be average height, than to be 6'0 tall and unable to half walk. I am blessed that I realized and found the truth before I put myself through such trials and tribulations.
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I remember the past, whenever he posted, it's like an all-knowing, narcissistic statements about CLL.
But now I notice that whenever he posts, it's more non-confrontational kumbayas.
He's feeling the heat that old forum might not survive with the status quo.
Yeah, he even started a thread about removing his recommended doctors list.
Crazy+6 did 10+ cm, I believe....According to an old diary, it says he went from 5'4 to 5'11.... If he did this all in one surgery, I can understand why recovery would be next to impossible. That is a lot of lengthening for one surgery.
He did two surgeries. The first one was external tibias with Drs Patil and Tejwani at SPARSH hospital in Bangalore. Then he did femurs with Dr Sarin in New Delhi. With tibias, Crazy+6 disobeyed the doctors and lengthened more than they advised him to. Although I think the complications with femurs came at fault from both doctor and patient.
One or two surgeries, that's still lengthening way beyond what people would consider a safe amount.
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Hi Kilo, for the record how is crazy+6 now?
Can he run? Does he have severely limited Activities of Daily Living?
How about Apo?
Yeah, he even started a thread about removing his recommended doctors list.
He did two surgeries. The first one was external tibias with Drs Patil and Tejwani at SPARSH hospital in Bangalore. Then he did femurs with Dr Sarin in New Delhi. With tibias, Crazy+6 disobeyed the doctors and lengthened more than they advised him to. Although I think the complications with femurs came at fault from both doctor and patient.
One or two surgeries, that's still lengthening way beyond what people would consider a safe amount.
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Hi Kilo, for the record how is crazy+6 now?
Can he run? Does he have severely limited Activities of Daily Living?
How about Apo?
Last I heard was a few months ago and person who saw him said he would have potentially lifelong problems. Made it seem like he would be near crippled forever. Last I saw of Apo was that video he posted of him on the trampoline.
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the most scary part about Crazy6+'s diary were the mind-boggling positive comments that people posted. I don't know if it was to obey the law and orders of old forum or not, but I remember when crazy posted a full shot of his body. It looked like he was on stilts. I swear to God, I never seen any person more disproportionate and off-looking. It was a pic taken of him from behind, where he was standing in front of a bed and held his crutches midway up in air.
I cannot remember a single person tell the truth to him. Does anyone still have that pic?
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Hi,
I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.
And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.
So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.
Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. :P
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I agree that everyone is different. There'd be few whose body can absorb more than 10 cm of lengthening. The problem is we don't know who would that few are until they LL; it doesn't mean one is fit and flexible and he could do more. It's not as predictable as that.
Eventually everyone will regress to the mean. We just don't know what is the magic soft spot, that mean cm, where more than that is already more than enough. Dr Franz won't lengthen more than 10cm (femur + tibia), and I believe his reason is both for safety and proportion.
We're still getting more data as we discuss this in the forum. CLL is still in its infancy. I hope there's a randomized control trial (golden standard) where the optimum lengthening is determined based on safety and proportion, with 5-10-20 years follow up.
But that won't ever happen. All we have are anecdotal reports of each diary. This is the poorest evidence recommendation.
As Leechlet would always use poker as an analogy, our bet should be just enough. If we're too greedy, safety would be compromised (betting too high will make the other guy fold).
Hi,
I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.
And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.
So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.
Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. :P
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Ya, totally agree with mediocre
WHen i first started this journey, I always asked Guichet if i can get to 10cm and HOW i would know. SLR score? cybex? just give me the bottom line, i told the guy. but he always said, "we'll see..." or "it depends..." which annoyed me bc i thought that was a bull answer. i mean, what the heck? why can't he just tell me a straight up answer? so i kept asking and asking.
after i got the surgery, i finally understood. LL is not a controlled event, like u just put in a nail, u do some stretches, and BOOM bro, u got taller. sweet man. time to go hit up chicks. no no, it's not like that. it's a much more chaotic procress with lots of random variables. how well will u heal? how fast will ur muscle adapt? how about ur nerves? psychology? sleep? eating? etc etc. soooo many variable. thats bc our body is one hella complex piece of machinery. it's not like an engine, a linear system where A+B = C always. no, there's so many things u couldn't possibly know until u do it.
i think that's why guichet has above average results. he claims he is the best. i never believe those claims. but his patients i see all have no major complications bc he adjusts to their conditions, such as click rate and medicine to speed up or slow down bone healing. but in the end, u gotta understand that LL like poker, is both a game of skill and luck. u can control how much u train, how closely u follow orders, and how seriously u take the whole experience, but u can't control how ur body will react. u just get a good doctor. that's like starting out with AKs. u have a good prep and surgery. that's liek flopping TPTK on a two tone board drawing to the nut flush. but maybe sometime will go wrong. maybe that stubborn nerve in ur right leg is causing problem, holding a set and boating up by the river. idk. okay, i am gonna stop with these poker analogies. but basically, u gotta accept the random nature of LL too if u wanna be completely realistic
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Obvious heading.
Less is always better. If you do less, you recover faster and you will look more proportionate (assuming you don't have awkward body to begin with).
If you can overcome this height neurosis that we're all suffering from, I would never suggest anyone to undergo LL in the first place. I have made too many sacrifices this year and last year and my life would have been wayyyy better off and I would be much more happier had I not done LL. I would still keep my gf, finished by degrees, and be promoted to a higher position at work. Plus one of the reasons why my CEO liked me was because of my height. He was looking out for the small guy. But I can never overcome this height neurosis, which is ruining me in a bad way.
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Here is my comments regarding those folks above.
Oldie - perfect
Tall - this guy allowed his height insecurity to get the better part of him. He went from a respectable height of 5'10 to become 6'7 (correct me if I'm wrong, 12cm + 6.5cm?). First of all, I can't imagine all the money he has spent. And his job is as respectable as his height. He's a sleazy salesman for Dr. M.
Crazy 6+ - he was my first roommate at Sarin's guesthouse. I knew all along he was the manager there. As we're friends, so I don't want to say too many bad things about him. But I wouldn't blame Sarin for his lack of recovery. While I was doing 300 sit-up per day, he was only reaching up for food. And he was even lazy to go to the washroom himself and have to ring the helper to carry him there.
Apo/Sysop - any guy who call himself Apothesis should have a reality check. He's really far from being a "god," both physically and mentally. He has been hiring hookers, who he calls girlfriends on old forum , to come over his house to take photo of him. He said women look at him with "deary" eyes out of admiration. I'm not sure if it's admiration or because they feel sorry for how mess up he has become. He's bald, upper body looks like a balloon with two long pair of white legs sticking out at the end. He said he likes to looking over ppl with his height, standing next to his other tall friend. I can imagine what that looks like. If they're both at the same height, Apo's crotch level would be at his friend's rib cage height level... not a very cool sight.
India's patient - well, I feel sorry for myself now. I was really hoping that my journey would end well. Unfortunately, I discovered that my left tibia is short than my right by 1cm. Now I have this problem to deal with before I can think about my next femur LL journey. And I wouldn't do much, maybe just 6cm.
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10cm is still a reasonable maximum goal for some people. My calves and ankles were extremely flexible before going into the surgery. I think I could have lengthened more than 7.5cm and still been all right. My only real problem was with my knees, which hurt from the very beginning and were resistant to PT. Things actually got easier for me the more I lengthened, possibly because of time passing between the IM nail surgery and then.
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LL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)
I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.
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I agree, patients will ask more because that's just human nature. We don't see it objectively. But doctors do, and I'm happy there are doctors like Dr Birkholtz who put limits because they see it objectively. He loses patients and money, true, but that's the ethics of being a doctor—he swears that he will, "First, Do No Harm."
LL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)
I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.
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Crazy+6 did 17cm.
I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.
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I thought 10 cm tibial lengthening was possible because it was listed in Dr.Xia's LON package and how he stated that it is possible to lengthen 10cm.
But after doing more research and emailing CLL doctors, I then realized how delusional I was.
For normal adults considering CLL, restrict yourselves to max 6cm femur and 5 cm tibias.
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According to my x-ray I did 5.2, but, I think its reasonable to think I actually got a little less.
When I was in the guesthouse I was asked over and over if I regretted not doing more. Pretty common to hear stuff like "Why come all this way and only do 5". At the time I did sometimes think maybe I f**ked up when I took my frames off and I should have done more.
Since actually starting walking and trying to function in day to day life I am so so thankful that I did 5cm instead of more [god forbid doing 10cm on tibias?]. The toll this takes on your legs is just absolutely disgusting and I am not surprised the vast vast majority of people who do this surgery never post on the forum again.
The videos people post are a huge misrepresentation of the patients day to day life and the comments that follow are so ignorant if it wasn't so sad it'd be hilarious. I consider myself thoroughly disabled currently yet I have only seen two patients (smallguy and blackbear after his first surgery) do things that I can not do. So I am going to assume that everyone else who posts videos struggle day to day just as much as me, some of whom are years post surgery. Doing an extra 2cm prolongs recovery exponentially perhaps permanently.
After consulting with an Australian doctor overall I do regret doing this. In his opinion I will never squat or dead lift at anywhere near my previous level. My knee pain will not subside and currently I can't even do an unweighted leg extension with my right leg. Ironically I think the knee pain has nothing to do with how much you lengthen but just the rod being put in. I asked the doc if taking the rods out would solve the pain and he said it's just as likely to exacerbate it. Extremely nervous for my rod removal and the months that follow as it could be either help with the issues or be the beginnings of a lifetime of chronic pain that will severely detract from my quality of life. I have an array of other issues but are more short-medium term in nature which undoubtedly would have worsened had I lengthened more.
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After consulting with an Australian doctor overall I do regret doing this. In his opinion I will never squat or dead lift at anywhere near my previous level. My knee pain will not subside and currently I can't even do an unweighted leg extension with my right leg. Ironically I think the knee pain has nothing to do with how much you lengthen but just the rod being put in. I asked the doc if taking the rods out would solve the pain and he said it's just as likely to exacerbate it. Extremely nervous for my rod removal and the months that follow as it could be either help with the issues or be the beginnings of a lifetime of chronic pain that will severely detract from my quality of life. I have an array of other issues but are more short-medium term in nature which undoubtedly would have worsened had I lengthened more.
I concur with this doctor's opinion. I was hoping the nail removal would improve my knee pain but it did not.
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I am starting to lose faith in the LON/LATN method. :-\
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Crazy+6 did 17cm.
I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.
Hey Sweden, I understand your professional karate career is over, which doesn't surprise me because of how extensive this surgery is, but can you walk still?
And for all the young kids like me reading your post, what would you have done differently? Thank you, and I wish you the best of luck in recovery!
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Taekwondo.
It's not about that. At all.
Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.
Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.
I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.
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Hey Russianblues,
How thoroughly did your doc in Australia evaluate your legs? Did he say the lengthening was performed correctly and that your legs are anatomically intact and such things? I'll be doing the same as you the moment I get home and going to a doc to be evaluated for he damage done (maybe after I first get on my knees and kiss the beloved ground I took so much for granted). I'm even considering electrotherapy to rid my mind of the sights of India 8). I had an x-ray on Tuesday and got 4.6cm and 4.7cm. I want to end up with just 5cm as well but, as you know, there is no way of being sure with these x-rays. I feel like I need to go to 6cm to be certain for 5.....
It sucks that you're having the knee issues. Mine seem to be fine; I can get full range of motion on both with relative ease in the frames, but I have my toe that might never function again..... Glad to hear you've gotten home intact. It seems you and Sweden didn't find Thailand to be too appealing. Don't say I didn't try to warn you, bud. ;) Come on skype when you have free time.
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Have you asked your doctor about that? I think that it isnt normal that you have been welll and know you cant walk. Have you gone to any doctor? What did the say?
Taekwondo.
It's not about that. At all.
Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.
Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.
I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.
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Taekwondo.
It's not about that. At all.
Today I can't even walk normal. I don't know what happened. In December I was out running and jump kicking and feeling great about myself.
Now for some reason my ankles hurt insanely much. A life without even walking is totally worthless.
I would not have done LL if I knew this. No way! I hate my life now. My life was truly fantastic before LL.
The only thing I can think of is that a screw might be loose in one or both of your ankles? Why don't you get an x ray?
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Crazy+6 did 17cm.
I did 7cm and my body and life is totally ruined. My ankles are destroyed and I hate my life.
Some days I think of ending it. There is no spark anymore.
Jeezuz.. I used to read your posts and think 3 inches is nothing for this guy, he has taken so much lengthening and even showed us a video of his performing a human flag - I think i should be fine if i do 3 inch femurs and 2 inch tibie but now.. :'( I'm scared as hell.. I'm only 5'4 and thought i could nicely reach 5'7 or 5'8 (even 5'9) which i'm more than happy for but reading all this.. I wish Limb Lengthening was perfected and people could do it properly without these heinous consequences.
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Jeezuz.. I used to read your posts and think 3 inches is nothing for this guy, he has taken so much lengthening and even showed us a video of his performing a human flag - I think i should be fine if i do 3 inch femurs and 2 inch tibie but now.. :'( I'm scared as hell.. I'm only 5'4 and thought i could nicely reach 5'7 or 5'8 (even 5'9) which i'm more than happy for but reading all this.. I wish Limb Lengthening was perfected and people could do it properly without these heinous consequences.
I wish that too, but keep in mind it's major surgery and no surgeon has perfected any type of major surgery. LL is a big deal with big risks involved. That's why most doctors won't even do CLL.
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There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals
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There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals
Have you heard of a patient named Amatan... Or Apotheosis for that matter? One had a non-lengthening precise, the other had a "weight-bearing" betzbone nail break, then had a non-union.
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I wish that too, but keep in mind it's major surgery and no surgeon has perfected any type of major surgery. LL is a big deal with big risks involved. That's why most doctors won't even do CLL.
What would you say are the biggest risks in Cosmetic Limb Lengthening? I mean could you categorically list all the MAJOR consequences of Limb Lengthening surgery? And are these risks present if someone got 5cm on Tibiae and then a few years later got 5cm on femurs?
Also if you could do it over again MDoW, which would you have done first? Tibiae or Femurs?
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There is a common denominator for all the people having issues after LL: externals
Another common denominator: malfunction of internal devices and internals rods breaking.
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Have you heard of a patient named Amatan... Or Apotheosis for that matter? One had a non-lengthening precise, the other had a "weight-bearing" betzbone nail break, then had a non-union.
we are talking about permanent or long-term complications. Not technical issues with the hardware.
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Another common denominator: malfunction of internal devices and internals rods breaking.
Ok everyone. Without letting this get out of hand. I thought the topic was long-term / permanent complications with the BODY not the hardware. Yes amatans precice malfunctioned, but that is fixed. it doesnt mean he is going to have long tern knee issues or ankle issues.
Same with all the betz nail bending or breaking. They get titanium replacement and they are back dancing (andrew) and skiing (oldie).
But in external patients case, alot have long term problems with their body. All the people who reported it in this thread did, externals no?
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I concur with this doctor's opinion. I was hoping the nail removal would improve my knee pain but it did not.
so after 7 years, you still have knee pain caused by LL?
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Rod inserted inside tibia bone = permanent knee pain.
It can happen whether you do internals or external.
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Rod inserted inside tibia bone = permanent knee pain.
It can happen whether you do internals or external.
so all the 100 000 people who undergoes tibial lengthening or correction due to trauma, deformity, dwarfisism are all suffering permanent knee pain.
it all makes sense now. ::)
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so all the 100 000 people who undergoes tibial lengthening or correction due to trauma, deformity, dwarfisism are all suffering permanent knee pain.
it all makes sense now. ::)
30% of them anyway. I didn't bother elaborating because I sound like a broken record saying it nearly every time I log on.
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Ok everyone. Without letting this get out of hand. I thought the topic was long-term / permanent complications with the BODY not the hardware. Yes amatans precice malfunctioned, but that is fixed. it doesnt mean he is going to have long tern knee issues or ankle issues.
Same with all the betz nail bending or breaking. They get titanium replacement and they are back dancing (andrew) and skiing (oldie).
But in external patients case, alot have long term problems with their body. All the people who reported it in this thread did, externals no?
Where did you get your knowledge about these things? There are lots of Betz patients with long term and/or permanent damage. For example, when the nail breaks very often other things break too. Internals are good for femur lengthening. For tibia they are worse than externals for several reasons.
-Knee damage due to rod insertion
-Higher risk of compartment syndrome
-Slower consolidation
-Additional surgery to remove fibula screws
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Over 70% actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod#Complications
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282
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Another study here showing a huge risk of knee pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026)
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Thanks kusop for this interesting topic!
Has anyone heard of long term complications with internal rods? If so, please tell us more about the details - thanks!
Another thing I would like to point out with lengthening a large amount is the risk of having to lengthen the other segment too, as in Talls (old forum ) case:
Tall - Internal Tibias - Dr. Mahboubian - 2012 - A PRECICE Journey to Proportion
« on: February 20, 2012, 05:00:11 AM »
As some of you know I competed my Internal Femur LLing with Dr. Augustine Betz in Fall 2006. Since that time I have enjoyed my current height: 188CM. The height increase has been amazing! During the past few years I have been experiencing minor knee pain & discomfort. During various examinations by orthopedic doctors, I have been advised that in order to avoid future problems with my knees (arthritis) that I needed to correct the discrepancy between my femur/tibia ratio which was caused by my femur legthening. Don't get me wrong, I am very proud of my lengthening with Dr. Betz as I was his first 11CM patient. But, this confirms what I already knew & that was that most individuals should not legthen beyond 7.5 CM. I state this in most cases, as I know everyone's body is different and there are exceptions to the rule.
So I will be legthening both of my tibias separately by 6.5 CM with the new PRECICE nail starting on April 5, 2012 in Hollywood, CA with Dr. Shahab Mahboubian, D.O., MPH. Please stay tuned for a detailed diary.
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It's strange how something so significant doesn't ever seem to be discussed by many orthopedic surgeons that perform CLL, or maybe they do and the patients just don't report it.
"Fourteen (67%) of the twenty-one patients treated with transtendinous nailing reported anterior knee pain at the final evaluation. Of these fourteen patients, thirteen were mildly to severely impaired by the pain. Fifteen (71%) of the twenty-one patients treated with paratendinous nailing reported anterior knee pain, and ten of the fifteen were impaired by the pain. The Lysholm, Tegner, and Iowa knee scoring systems; muscle-strength measurements; and functional tests showed no significant differences between the two groups."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11940618 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11940618)
I mean knee pain may be the trade off for people who need an IM nail inserted for trauma or deformity. But for CLL you may as well stick with externals, or discuss with your surgeon if LATP (lengthening and then plating) is an option -I saw a study call it FAP (fixating and plating) :D - so you get stabilization and somewhat reduced fixation time (not as reduced as LON/LATN but lower than external) without the anterior knee pain.
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Over 70% actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramedullary_rod#Complications
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758282
Another study here showing a huge risk of knee pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8990026)
These studies should be terrifying to anyone even considering have internal lengthening done. I'm sure scared :(
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I mean knee pain may be the trade off for people who need an IM nail inserted for trauma or deformity. But for CLL you may as well stick with externals, or discuss with your surgeon if LATP (lengthening and then plating) is an option -I saw a study call it FAP (fixating and plating) :D - so you get stabilization and somewhat reduced fixation time (not as reduced as LON/LATN but lower than external) without the anterior knee pain.
LATP sounds like a winner to me for when I lengthen my tibiae!
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LATP sounds like a winner to me for when I lengthen my tibiae!
I'm going to discuss with the surgeon about doing that as well. Glad Dr Birkholtz told me about it because I wasn't too excited for external only either.
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the most scary part about Crazy6+'s diary were the mind-boggling positive comments that people posted. I don't know if it was to obey the law and orders of old forum or not, but I remember when crazy posted a full shot of his body. It looked like he was on stilts. I swear to God, I never seen any person more disproportionate and off-looking. It was a pic taken of him from behind, where he was standing in front of a bed and held his crutches midway up in air.
I cannot remember a single person tell the truth to him. Does anyone still have that pic?
This one?
(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).
(http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17897110_crazy6.jpg) (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17897110/crazy6.jpg.html)
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This one?
(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).
(http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17897110_crazy6.jpg) (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17897110/crazy6.jpg.html)
Oh, this brings back memories. We were having a conversation about height. He said he would only go for white girls now that he's taller. And I ask where would he find white girls in India. It was quite egotistical. So while he stood up, I ask if he feels comfortable with me taking a pic of him. He said sure and while I'm at it, feel free to post it on old forum for him because a lot of guys were questioning him about his proportion. That was the story.
This pic was taken when he was "skinny." He was much worst, like a ballon when I left.
Anyway, I will maybe do 7cm in the femur instead of they original 8cm which I planned for.
This brings back memories because now I'm thinking about my ex. I'm so out of sync with everyone on this site.
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So if we could get back to the discussion at hand then, i would like to ask everyone with more knowledge than me about limb lengthening. After seeing all the evidence of how disastrous limb lengthening can be at extreme lengths, is 5cm tibs and 5cm femurs a more safer approach/goal?
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So if we could get back to the discussion at hand then, i would like to ask everyone with more knowledge than me about limb lengthening. After seeing all the evidence of how disastrous limb lengthening can be at extreme lengths, is 5cm tibs and 5cm femurs a more safer approach/goal?
Less will always be safer in general, but don't think that you'll be problem-free with 5/5, or guaranteed to have problems over 5/5. Every body is different.
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This one?
(Normally I wouldn't post pics from that site, but since Gladiator2012 and Sysop refused to take down pics from Disobedient's friend on old forum , it's only fair).
(http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17897110_crazy6.jpg) (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17897110/crazy6.jpg.html)
yes thats the one. holy fukcing .. if anyone needs a warning against disproportion, that pic should be shown first.
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I actually don't have knee pain. It's only both of my ankles that are killing me, literally.
The right one can hurt up to 8-9 when I put load on it.
While sitting down it doesn't feel anything.
I can sense some kind of ache in my knees when I press really hard at the gym in leg sections and leg press.
Other than that - nothing in my knees. And I was running outside in the cold Swedish winter this December too.
Now I'm practically crippled :-\
Sitting at the hotel room right now in Thailand and need to climb furniture just to get to the bathroom. Right ankle is killing me :'(
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This thread alone makes me finally decide I won't go more than 6.5 cm (femur).
Is it true crazy+6 went from 5'4" to 5'11"?
That's 17cm!
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This thread alone makes me finally decide I won't go more than 6.5 cm (femur).
Is it true crazy+6 went from 5'4" to 5'11"?
That's 17cm!
Yeah, you probably read this from me. Haha :-)
My second roommate had bow leg correction in addition to lengthening. He was there to fix his bowleg. Height increase was just a bonus for him. He managed to obtain 7.2cm (his original goal was 8cm like me)
However, for him, he was different from the rest of the patient. He had his legs plated instead of having the nail inserted. Also, with having your legs plated the rate of consolidation is much faster because there are no interference from having the nail. My lower left leg was also plated and it consolidated 3 weeks after frame removal. So I get to experience both having the im nail inserted and having legs plated.
So if you're afraid of having im nail causing you permanent knee pain, then another option would be having your legs plated. I wouldn't go for purely external because you would have to wear the frame for too long.
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Yeah, you probably read this from me. Haha :-)
My second roommate had bow leg correction in addition to lengthening. He was there to fix his bowleg. Height increase was just a bonus for him. He managed to obtain 7.2cm (his original goal was 8cm like me)
However, for him, he was different from the rest of the patient. He had his legs plated instead of having the nail inserted. Also, with having your legs plated the rate of consolidation is much faster because there are no interference from having the nail. My lower left leg was also plated and it consolidated 3 weeks after frame removal. So I get to experience both having the im nail inserted and having legs plated.
So if you're afraid of having im nail causing you permanent knee pain, then another option would be having your legs plated. I wouldn't go for purely external because you would have to wear the frame for too long.
My plan is to correct bow legs I got from playing soccer. Believe me or not but it looks like I was ridding a horse whole my life. Could u please explain a bit more about having legs plated? Would I gain that 4cm I want so bad just with having my legs plated? Does every LL surgeon also do those kind of operation?
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Crazy is the typical Indian guy: always chomping at the bit for a white woman. Indeed, where will he find one in India? I haven't seen a single one in the four months I've been here. I wanted him to come and hold himself accountable like a man at the guest house, but I think his proportions might leave too severe a horror in my mind.
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It is a fascinating picture and also a little sad. Notice how he's wearing a slightly long sweater as well. With a dress shirt tucked into pants it would look even worse. It's almost shocking that surgeons will allow that kind of height increase, actually. I don't know what's worse, height discrimination or looking like a tall and freaky balloon on stilts? You're only replacing one more or less normal problem with another extremely rare one. How the hell will you explain it to someone? It's one thing for people to try to understand the need for having surgery just to become a little taller, but having multiple surgeries, spending years, only to end up looking like that (not to mention hardly walking normally)? :o
It's a no-brainer that the average upper body of someone 5'4" will look weird on a 5'11" tall person. It's an 11% increase in height. The same figure applies to Apotheosis, btw. So I can imagine he looks a little like Crazy.
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The same figure applies to Apotheosis, btw. So I can imagine he looks a little like Crazy.
I wouldn't compare Apoth with Crazy 6. Crazy 6 has a head full of hair which Apoth has none. Having hair helps Crazy look slightly more proportionate. And Apoth lengthen way more than Crazy has, 20cm?
And I wouldn't give Apoth too much credibility. Crazy 6 has an MBA background and managerial experience. I even doubt that Apoth even has a real job with all the hours he spent monitoring old forum . He's more like a cyber junkie with really bad people skill, banning ppl at the slightest mistake.
But if you really want to imagine what Apoth looks like from that photo, you can imagine two white pair of cleanly shaven legs underneath of a man in his 40s with bald head.
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My plan is to correct bow legs I got from playing soccer. Believe me or not but it looks like I was ridding a horse whole my life. Could u please explain a bit more about having legs plated? Would I gain that 4cm I want so bad just with having my legs plated? Does every LL surgeon also do those kind of operation?
If you just want to get your leg straigthen, then I believe that won't be hard. I heard from Sarin that it will just takes 14 days. But if you want to lengthen along with straightening your legs then you have to go through the whole LL ordeal including straightening your legs at the same time.
I believe Sarin doesn't charge you extra for straightening your legs. It is included in the price of lengthening. However, because your legs will be straighten during the process, he won't insert a nail into your tibia like he does with normal LL patient. Once you finish your lengthening, he will plate your bones for support. The plate has less weight bearing relative to the IM nail but since there is no rod to interfere in your bones, your bones will consolidate faster. If you want just 4cm, then the whole ordeal would probably take just 4 months before you can walk freely again. 1.5 months for lengthening and 2.5 months is the conservative estimate for recovery.
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If you just want to get your leg straigthen, then I believe that won't be hard. I heard from Sarin that it will just takes 14 days. But if you want to lengthen along with straightening your legs then you have to go through the whole LL ordeal including straightening your legs at the same time.
I believe Sarin doesn't charge you extra for straightening your legs. It is included in the price of lengthening. However, because your legs will be straighten during the process, he won't insert a nail into your tibia like he does with normal LL patient. Once you finish your lengthening, he will plate your bones for support. The plate has less weight bearing relative to the IM nail but since there is no rod to interfere in your bones, your bones will consolidate faster. If you want just 4cm, then the whole ordeal would probably take just 4 months before you can walk freely again. 1.5 months for lengthening and 2.5 months is the conservative estimate for recovery.
Guys I just want to say once again, u r doing such a great job for future LL patients and if it means anything to u - I'm sooooo gratefull to each of you. If there is more people like you, the world would be a better place for sure.
Smallguy, my pick is dr. Mitkovic and I hope I'll get him soon. I'm working hard on getting my body and legs ready for the operation.
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Boy, this topic sure is popular. :D
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A good friend recently gave this advice
" LL should be about adding more to your quality of life and making it better.
Not unnecessarily risking/ sacrificing one area of your life (Athletic, everyday ability, mobility, and Health/comfort/lack of pain) for another area (extra height). It's not about getting rid of one insecurity (shortness) and replacing it with another insecurity (ex. Scars, immobility, disproportion or whatever complications) .
The extra height is definitely worth it, only if you can live a full life."
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Where's the problem than if all of us know it is too risky to go above 5cm? If u can't stretch your legs let say like barellina why you think muscles will do the job on their own when u lengthen a single cm? Anyone who's fighting to do splits or any stretching excercise knows it hurts when u r going beyond your stretching level. What I'm trying to say is that u must prepare your legs for LL and be fit like professional sportsman. I know Sweden was in good form and used to do taekwando but in my opinion he did to much of lengthening. It is impossible to stretch your muscle 7-8-9-10 cm without consecvences. Maybe 3cm is too much for the body to handle... Before u do the operation work hard on your body and don't length more than 5cm.
First of all your body won't look good, u'll face problems sooner or later and how can any doctor allow patient to length 10cm?? Does he have a heart?
Few of u lengthen more than 5cm and u r doing well, but what I've been reading almost everyone is facing one or more problems.
Sorry if my post sounds rude or agressive, I feel sorry for anyone who's in pain after surgery and I want everyone to be happy with their old or new life and I want to help as much as I can.
Once again I'm grateful to all of u on this forum. <3
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My initial goal was 6cm when I came to India. It sounded like the most safe in combination with the most gain.
I then looked at all of the other patients legs and I couldn't really see anyone with abnormal proportions, even one guy who did 8,6cm.
My room mate did 7cm and so I figured I could do 7cm and be 180cm tall.
That's the story about choosing 7cm. (Turned 7,4 on device).
All of my problems started when passing 5cm.
I fought everything pretty good and I've been running and jumping and doing advanced kicks post LL and really felt the happiness LL is supposed to offer a patient.
Right now I have constant aches in my right ankle and I can't run absolutely not jump. It's a huge set back :-\
Maybe my ankles are too tight and I need surgery. I'll look more in to it as soon as I get back from Thailand.
I should have only done maximum 6cm.
But, I am "only" 178/179 and at the time it felt like a big deal being 180.
Apo didn't lengthened way much more than Crazy+60(hehe), only 3 more cm.
Crazy looked alright many times but he always wore long shirt, jeans and dress shoes - even when he was "working out"(or whatever you could call sitting down).
Apo claims he has done 4 hair transplants, and he shaves his head(???)! Christ ;D He must look very weird with his spider legs and bold shiny head.
I'm considering femurs to even out my proportions. You can't see I lengthened but I would do 5-6cm on my femurs to get to 6 feet tall.
But right now I just want to heal up my ankles that are killing me.
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With the born of this topic, I believe this forum is now officially superior to old forum . We are the people who can look at the reality in its eyes and make a wise decision. People on old forum are a bunch of poor delusional people mislead by Apo. This is how CLL evolves guy. I really hope that more and more people will join the " no more than 5cm/segment" club, so we wont have to witness anymore heartbroken stories in the future. Now I only use old forum to check on Sweden's diary.
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Hey Sweden!
I did a surgery with Guichet on the femur about 35 day post op at about 4.6cm now. I am feeling fine and can extend my leg fully during night and sleep through the night without having to get up and go exercises. I can bend all my joints completely, but I have a problem walking with my legs closed.
I was wondering what your opinion is of me going past 5cm. How will I know there's a problem? How will I know when my body is started to get damaged? I am not a heavy sports person like you, but ideally I would like to be able to walk around on mountains to talk about philosophy and to also do long biking trips.
Thanks
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With the born of this topic, I believe this forum is now officially superior to old forum . We are the people who can look at the reality in its eyes and make a wise decision. People on old forum are a bunch of poor delusional people mislead by Apo. This is how CLL evolves guy. I really hope that more and more people will join the " no more than 5cm/segment" club, so we wont have to witness anymore heartbroken stories in the future. Now I only use old forum to check on Sweden's diary.
guys, lets not make this a old forum bashing topic. We have other threads for that. In fact old forum is dying. The user activity is now way below this forum. I just hope Apo doesnt kill it. Way too valuable information there for newbies. I know someone here zipped it but unless the files in the zip is posted in a organized structure its not really comparable to old forum .
Remember we all started at old forum . I am grateful even though Apo permbanned me :P
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guys, lets not make this a old forum bashing topic. We have other threads for that. In fact old forum is dying. The user activity is now way below this forum. I just hope Apo doesnt kill it. Way too valuable information there for newbies. I know someone here zipped it but unless the files in the zip is posted in a organized structure its not really comparable to old forum .
Remember we all started at old forum . I am grateful even though Apo permbanned me :P
The zip file contains a surfable archive of the site. If you haven't downloaded it yet, do it, the more people have it on their hard drives the better, just in case. Searching in it is not that easy unless you index all the files with some kind of html parsing software, but when browsing through it, it should "behave" exactly like the online forum does except for everything being read-only and static and from last year, obviously.
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The zip file contains a surfable archive of the site. If you haven't downloaded it yet, do it, the more people have it on their hard drives the better, just in case. Searching in it is not that easy unless you index all the files with some kind of html parsing software, but when browsing through it, it should "behave" exactly like the online forum does except for everything being read-only and static and from last year, obviously.
ok, I think I downloaded the zip for a long time ago (as you said, just in case) but I never bothered to check out the contents.
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Hey Sweden!
I did a surgery with Guichet on the femur about 35 day post op at about 4.6cm now. I am feeling fine and can extend my leg fully during night and sleep through the night without having to get up and go exercises. I can bend all my joints completely, but I have a problem walking with my legs closed.
I was wondering what your opinion is of me going past 5cm. How will I know there's a problem? How will I know when my body is started to get damaged? I am not a heavy sports person like you, but ideally I would like to be able to walk around on mountains to talk about philosophy and to also do long biking trips.
Thanks
Leechlet,
You should be good going over 5 cm on your femurs, but I wouldn't recommend your initial 10 cm goal. Tibiae are generally harder to lengthen and face more complications as opposed to your femurs. Someone else can probably explain why better than I could.
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It's nice to see that this forum is an eye opening for those who are planning to do CLL safely .
i wish i would go back in time and did 6 cm even though right now i do not have any pain on my both knee at 8.3 cm except for my left tibia slightly not alligned at the degree of 5% to 10% which is causing little pain in my inner left ankle (fk Dr Sarin) .
i will be going to Mumbai on 27th this month to see if i can do correction if its possible , i will be visiting Dr Mangal Parihar and Dr Suhas shah (i believe they are the best doctors in india regarding Ilizarov Technique and of course Dr Milind Chaudhary) .
5 cm to max 6 cm on tibia is what i recommend to any future LL patients if they really want to be safe .
As for femur i believe 6 cm to max 7 cm to be safe (according to my research experience).
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guys, morale of the thread dont become like Crazy or Apo (below):
(http://s24.postimg.org/i260vfzet/apodis.png)
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Apo just posted a new photo of himself. I actually think he looks great, but that's just my opinion. He has his leg muscles back and his upper body looks very muscular in a lean way. He does look like a male model, imho.
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Leechlet: you will feel it in your body when it starts to go tough.
Don't pass 7cm on your femurs.
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Apo just posted a new photo of himself. I actually think he looks great, but that's just my opinion. He has his leg muscles back and his upper body looks very muscular in a lean way. He does look like a male model, imho.
holy . i just seen it. apo looks ripped
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He is competiting for mister Olympia of LL. I would like to see some girls pose please.
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He is competiting for mister Olympia of LL. I would like to see some girls pose please.
I thought I have seen that same pose somewhere before. Right, Miss Universe.
And I would like to see the result of his multiple hair transplant.
Btw, those are some really cleanly shaved pair of legs.
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Someone is asking for side boobs only pics like me ? But im doing it for scientific reasons, i would like to know if LL has some effects on side boobs volume.
Please email me some pics at drpervnakethong@side.com, we stay in touch.
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Don't let pictures betray logic. You will have permanent issues with 20 cm of lengthening. Photos don't show the damage on the inside of your body, and once you let physique go (as everyone eventually does), you don't even have that going for you.
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Don't let pictures betray logic. You will have permanent issues with 20 cm of lengthening. Photos don't show the damage on the inside of your body, and once you let physique go (as everyone eventually does), you don't even have that going for you.
It's kinda like when a girl takes a selfie of only her face, and leaves her obese figure out of the frame...
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what do you all think if sysop/apotheosis now after all his lengthening ?
(http://i60.tinypic.com/vgvaf.jpg)
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It's kinda like when a girl takes a selfie of only her face, and leaves her obese figure out of the frame...
LOL. If she's obese, you'd see it in her face though. :D
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I must admit. I enjoy bashing Apoth (for fun). But if that's him in the photo, he doesn't look disproportion at all.... at 20cm of lengthening.
But that doesn't exclude the possibilities that he might have photoshopped his photo... like trimming a little fat here and there, blanking out his head to hide his baldness, or adding some muscles.. like many Korean girls or beauty queen do these days on Facebook.
And why is he so shy about posting a video of himself running on the treadmill? That just make me feel like he's hiding something.
Of course, because of his business to promote LL, he has every motive to make himself appear as a LLer success.
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I must admit. I enjoy bashing Apoth (for fun). But if that's him in the photo, he doesn't look disproportion at all.... at 20cm of lengthening.
But that doesn't exclude the possibilities that he might have photoshopped his photo... like trimming a little fat here and there, blanking out his head to hide his baldness, or adding some muscles.. like many Korean girls or beauty queen do these days on Facebook.
And why is he so shy about posting a video of himself running on the treadmill? That just make me feel like he's hiding something.
Of course, because of his business to promote LL, he has every motive to make himself appear as a LLer success.
You gotta admit he does look good here though.. . How did he make his torso appear so in proportion? He look's totally fit..
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he looks good, that picture makes him look proportional....
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Too bad you can't see shin splints, joint stiffness, or injury to nerves and vessels in a photo.
I wouldn't want a lamborghini that had a permanently busted up engine, no matter how polished it was on the outside.
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The photo shows him in a realy good shape but what's going on with his nerves, muscles and vessels... I don't know the guy and I've never been registered on that forum and I won't write anything bad about him, I wish him all the best and I hope he won't be an example to future LL patients.
20cms?? I had problems whit my knees when I was 10-11 and gained 7.5cm in one year naturally. I can't imagine what's going on with his body.
Who is/was his doctor? So I know not to go there never ever.
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Why would anyone lengthen their legs by four inches on each bone? Holy hell his penis must look tiny next to those stretched out legs. And how do you explain being 6'2 and having size nine shoes or whatever his original height foot size is? Embarrassing.
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Apo went to Dr. Betz in Germany for both of his lengthenings.
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Why would anyone lengthen their legs by four inches on each bone? Holy hell his penis must look tiny next to those stretched out legs.
Perhaps there is a surgery to enlarge the penis aswell xD
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what do you all think if sysop/apotheosis now after all his lengthening ?
(http://i60.tinypic.com/vgvaf.jpg)
he looks good actually, no more than good, he looks like a model ::) ..
even his arm doesn't look short as I read before,...
he just need some tan , and he'll be perfect. 8)
But that doesn't exclude the possibilities that he might have photoshopped his photo... like trimming a little fat here and there, blanking out his head to hide his baldness, or adding some muscles.. like many Korean girls or beauty queen do these days on Facebook.
Therefore, I can say that the disproportion thing can be solved easily , by doing liposuction and consuming some of protein shakes along with training your muscles .. 20cm doesn't look bad at all in Apo's case
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if you know how to adjust the camera angle you pretty much will look proportionate no mate how much you have lengthened. I will only be convinced that APO looks proportionate if he stands next to a guy at his height and still looks like this.
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Perhaps there is a surgery to enlarge the penis aswell xD
If there is then he will probably get that also even though it will probably damage his ability to pee. He doesn't care about body safety just about how he thinks he'll look that is why he lengthens a ridiculous amount. Picture looks good but that's like covering a piece of dog crap in chrome. Maybe the chrome looks nice but on the inside it is all messed up like the inside of Apo's legs.
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The only way you can see his porportions is to see a video of him walking or running...
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if you know how to adjust the camera angle you pretty much will look proportionate no mate how much you have lengthened. I will only be convinced that APO looks proportionate if he stands next to a guy at his height and still looks like this.
This.
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His photo is not too bad but nobody has commented why he would post a side view.
Again his proportion is not too bad as I would expect but I still feel something is funny about his overall proportion (or maybe I'm biased cuz I know he had LL).
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Why would anyone lengthen their legs by four inches on each bone? Holy hell his penis must look tiny next to those stretched out legs. And how do you explain being 6'2 and having size nine shoes or whatever his original height foot size is? Embarrassing.
So u think all/most short guys like u have a small penis like you?
Stop feeling the forum with your immature comments. Keep ur small bits to urself dude.
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He has an impressive upper body physique, no doubt about that. It distracts from the disproportion somewhat. But notice how his fingers and hands are really short and small.
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So u think all/most short guys like u have a small penis like you?
Stop feeling the forum with your immature comments. Keep ur small bits to urself dude.
Jimmies status = rustled.
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Of course he picked the best camera angles, but even the best camera angles can't hide freakish proportions if you have them. He looks fine after doing so much lengthening. That's some impressive work by Dr. Betz.
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IMO Apo looks great in that photo in terms of his physique. But I believe he would look disproportionate when wearing a tucked formal shirt and also the formal shoes which adds about 1-2 inches.
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The only way you can see his porportions is to see a video of him walking or running...
I wished someone at the guesthouse would be keen enough at that time to take a photo of him. I didn't meet him in person but have spoken with patients who have met him. One was machine's roommate and he was just here at my house last month. And the description and the comments I heard from the people who met him in person are nothing like what I'm seeing in the photo now. Maybe he has really work-out at the gym.
Unless, he shoot a video of himself jogging or running, I wouldn't buy it. I've been a forum member for years and when it comes to Apoth/Sysop, there is always a shroud of mysteries. He only reveals what he wants you to see. And it's such a coincident that he would post it at a time when we have the shift in paradigm... and everyone thinks he probably looks ridiculously disproportionate.
This single photo is probably picked from a hundred photo-shoot. Yes, I have many female friends on facebook so I understand their mentality. I'm not saying that it was edited but I would be skeptical anything coming from Apoth.. unless it's a video shot showing walking, running or from different view. And if he is so honest, how hard it is to show us that?
Obviously, he has a reputation to uphold and a business that depends on people going for LL. He wouldn't want to show you anything that discredits him or put him in a bad light.
On the other hand, if gaining muscle would compensate for freakishly long limbs, that will be great news indeed.
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The other thread on Sysop/Apotheosis proportions
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=201.0
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Camera angles really do work magic. His arms seem much longer and his hands much bigger than they do in previous pictures, such as the ones on page 1 of this thread.
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My 2 cents working as a freelance photographer. From my experience I can tell you guys that photos definitely does not equal real life 100%! :D The camera angles, posture and photo editing can plays a part in how you perceive the subject in the photo.
So take a healthy pinch of salt with what you see in photos. To give an example of how this works, you can even distort height difference with the camera
First Photos. Are you convinced these two guys are of the same height?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/T5Ev4XdQ0Pw/mqdefault.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mTxy8Lx.png)
Well here's another set of photos that prove that the camera is not always real.
Second Photo (Different Height)
(http://s28.postimg.org/f39t91x1l/height_difference.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f39t91x1l/)
(http://i.imgur.com/qcI2kMV.jpg?1)
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He lengthened his arms. That's why the proportions look acceptable.
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Even without the power of photoshop, the human body can be re-sculpted through lighting, posture and advantageous angles. Just putting it out there that what you see is not always what you get. Some examples of photoshop and digital image-retouching
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ap1v-Mu90G0/UXHgujN3r-I/AAAAAAAABjA/nGt_1S2vmcA/s640/0201-retouching_aw.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-39JBTm9hoIs/UXHfexKMNUI/AAAAAAAABi4/_FwK_xbiEIQ/s640/before_after_t610.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yiqN6Je1lqs/UXHdvuc-3tI/AAAAAAAABiw/Lspet1xFmUw/s640/6431443.jpg)
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I would consider this as a fair scale.
While a person may not experience major complications lengthening above 5 cm, it does put excessive pressure on the knee and ankle joints. Therefore in the long term more likely to face the risk of osteoarthritis than a person who has lengthened 5 cm or less.
Is 6/6 quite a considerable risk then?
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Is 6/6 quite a considerable risk then?
A number of competent Doctors have 5cm on Tibias and 5-6cm on Femurs as the maximum safe limit for adults. The more you lengthen, the more complications you risk. How your body reacts and Xrays during lengthening should give the doctor and yourself indications about the limit.
My personal opinion. LL is different for every individual and it should be taken one step at a time. There are a number of variables that affect the outcome of LL.
Lengthening amount aside, other factors are physical condition, nutrition, physio therapy, rate of lengthening, and technique used. Also a good doctor who perform the surgery properly and monitor your recovery to deal with complications.
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I'd say 0-5 cm is low risk, and 5-8 cm is medium risk. Anything more than that is high risk. This is not a technically universal risk indicator though, I'm making this on basis for cosmetic lengthenings only. For non-cosmetic lengthenings, much more is achieved if necessary.
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He lengthened his arms. That's why the proportions look acceptable.
How did you know?My 2 cents working as a freelance photographer. From my experience I can tell you guys that photos definitely does not equal real life 100%! :D The camera angles, posture and photo editing can plays a part in how you perceive the subject in the photo.
So take a healthy pinch of salt with what you see in photos. To give an example of how this works, you can even distort height difference with the camera
Hey Jerry,
Thanks for providing this info. It baffles me that a single picture taken from side-way view can rile up so much attention. But that is also a part of his enigma. The less info he provides, the more people exonerate him to the status that he is not. This is my last comment on this villain who has been preying on short people for commission for so long.
He's lucky that he has old forum to fall back on where he can be his own greek god (apotheosis) and no one can question him. If I meet him in person, he would probably be unnoticed. In fact, a lot of people from the guesthouse didn't know who he was until he told them that he was apoth/sysop from old forum . And if he comes to my gym, no one would care about a lanky old dude who walks around with his balls up to people's chest.
And I checked old forum today. Apoth said that he was looking forward to playing SOCCER (football) with Sweden. At 21cm of leg lengthening, what sort of soccer is he expecting to play? Old people's league? Can he dash/run? He can't even dribble the ball properly. Even a little kid pass through his legs. Enough said.
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As for football, Let him live in his own Neverland.
How did you know?
Hey Jerry,
Thanks for providing this info. It baffles me that a single picture taken from side-way view can rile up so much attention. But that is also a part of his enigma. The less info he provides, the more people exonerate him to the status that he is not. This is my last comment on this villain who has been preying on short people for commission for so long.
He's lucky that he has old forum to fall back on where he can be his own greek god (apotheosis) and no one can question him. If I meet him in person, he would probably be unnoticed. In fact, a lot of people from the guesthouse didn't know who he was until he told them that he was apoth/sysop from old forum . And if he comes to my gym, no one would care about a lanky old dude who walks around with his balls up to people's chest.
And I checked old forum today. Apoth said that he was looking forward to playing SOCCER (football) with Sweden. At 21cm of leg lengthening, what sort of soccer is he expecting to play? Old people's league? Can he dash/run? He can't even dribble the ball properly. Even a little kid pass through his legs. Enough said.
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I haven't been posting as much since the moderator altered the format of the forum. Anyway, I'm weighing in my 2 cents regarding LL.
LL is the stuff of nightmare. I went from full of energy, ready to do anything to bedridden, helpless and totally drained. Rozbruch was right, it's not worth it putting your body into overdrive for a year just to gain a few inches. Well my pride won in the end, I bought the visa, the plane ticket and one way token to an unknown future. Pain and pills is my game, not to mention loneliness. I alone bear the responsibility of my action, had I born a little taller I wouldn't have known such surgery exist and would have looked at it with disdain. For those who is of average height and wanting more, be careful what you wish for. Most of the time personally will trump good looks.
I'm short to begin with but I never dream of anything above 7 cm in each section. Now I'm lower my expectation to 6.5cm, after what I'm going through, lengthening my femur is a distant dream. For those who considered LL, do think over and over and over until you realize LL makes no sense.
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I haven't been posting as much since the moderator altered the format of the forum. Anyway, I'm weighing in my 2 cents regarding LL.
LL is the stuff of nightmare. I went from full of energy, ready to do anything to bedridden, helpless and totally drained. Rozbruch was right, it's not worth it putting your body into overdrive for a year just to gain a few inches. Well my pride won in the end, I bought the visa, the plane ticket and one way token to an unknown future. Pain and pills is my game, not to mention loneliness. I alone bear the responsibility of my action, had I born a little taller I wouldn't have known such surgery exist and would have looked at it with disdain. For those who is of average height and wanting more, be careful what you wish for. Most of the time personally will trump good looks.
I'm short to begin with but I never dream of anything above 7 cm in each section. Now I'm lower my expectation to 6.5cm, after what I'm going through, lengthening my femur is a distant dream. For those who considered LL, do think over and over and over until you realize LL makes no sense.
It's good to hear your honest opinion, I think you are going through the rough period of lengthening where alot of people will question their own decision of doing LL. The pain, drugs, immobility and loneliness gets to most people. I hope you will let us know if that opinion changes a few months down the road.
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I haven't been posting as much since the moderator altered the format of the forum. Anyway, I'm weighing in my 2 cents regarding LL.
LL is the stuff of nightmare. I went from full of energy, ready to do anything to bedridden, helpless and totally drained. Rozbruch was right, it's not worth it putting your body into overdrive for a year just to gain a few inches. Well my pride won in the end, I bought the visa, the plane ticket and one way token to an unknown future. Pain and pills is my game, not to mention loneliness. I alone bear the responsibility of my action, had I born a little taller I wouldn't have known such surgery exist and would have looked at it with disdain. For those who is of average height and wanting more, be careful what you wish for. Most of the time personally will trump good looks.
I'm short to begin with but I never dream of anything above 7 cm in each section. Now I'm lower my expectation to 6.5cm, after what I'm going through, lengthening my femur is a distant dream. For those who considered LL, do think over and over and over until you realize LL makes no sense.
I am so sorry....
I hope you will get better soon. :(
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I haven't been posting as much since the moderator altered the format of the forum. Anyway, I'm weighing in my 2 cents regarding LL.
LL is the stuff of nightmare. I went from full of energy, ready to do anything to bedridden, helpless and totally drained. Rozbruch was right, it's not worth it putting your body into overdrive for a year just to gain a few inches. Well my pride won in the end, I bought the visa, the plane ticket and one way token to an unknown future. Pain and pills is my game, not to mention loneliness. I alone bear the responsibility of my action, had I born a little taller I wouldn't have known such surgery exist and would have looked at it with disdain. For those who is of average height and wanting more, be careful what you wish for. Most of the time personally will trump good looks.
I'm short to begin with but I never dream of anything above 7 cm in each section. Now I'm lower my expectation to 6.5cm, after what I'm going through, lengthening my femur is a distant dream. For those who considered LL, do think over and over and over until you realize LL makes no sense.
f**k... posts like this just makes me doubt this whole LL I've been reading about for the past few years.
Then there are moments in daily life that does the total opposite.
I have to totally forget LL for good. delete my account here. Never ever think about LL and get on with my life.
Or just take the plunge. Face whatever obstacle I have coming...
All these former LL patients coming out and claiming their lifes are ruined. All these ITB release surgeries required to function normally.
Precice2 malfunctioning. I just cant decide. If I want, I can just get the girl I like and live my life. But will I ever forget LL? I don't think so. It will always be in my head: "what if...".
The two people I intensively followed was GoodFotballer and Sweden, because they were both active in sports. Goodfootballer the most. he promised to return to football and show the world. I was so happy. fast forward 1 year, I have seen f**k all from either. One claims he can't walk without pain in thailand, the other hasnt talked about football ever again.
I am in such a nasty limbo...
If I hadnt seen such riches (LL) I would happily live as a poor (short man).
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What doctor did you go to BullSurfer?
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Hey guys, i hope everyone manages to read this.. I've just recently heard of a gym in London called gymbox whose owner has guaranteed at least 2cm height increase or your money back. Apparently people have been reaching height gains of up to 2 inches. Approximately 5.5 cm. So i was just wondering if anyone has given that a go as of yet?!
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Hey guys, i hope everyone manages to read this.. I've just recently heard of a gym in London called gymbox whose owner has guaranteed at least 2cm height increase or your money back. Apparently people have been reaching height gains of up to 2 inches. Approximately 5.5 cm. So i was just wondering if anyone has given that a go as of yet?!
Your money and time would probably be better off doing yoga. I suspect that's what this gym thing is really about. A temporary increase in height via stretching. Once you stop doing it, your height will return to normal.
If you are under 20 and your growth plates have not close, it's worth stretching yourself via exercises.
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I'd rather be dead than live as a 165 cm man and I'm not kidding about it. It disgusted me for years. Yes, I'm vain, I accept it. I'd rather be a murderer than a short guy. LL is my salvation, there hasn't been a single day I regretted my decision. It's breaking the body for healing the hurt soul. If I was 173 cm or above, I wouldn't do LL. I would lock myself into the gym and get closer to a godlike physique. My minimum limit is 173 cm ( 5'8 ). Anything above that limit and if you still want LL, you might be better off by thinking again and dedicating yourself to working out. If you have doubts, then don't do it.
If your growth plates have fused, there's no other way for height increase except surgery. All other solutions are temporary (stretching, yoga, pilates). An endocrinologist can tell you whether if your growth plates have fused.
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I'd rather be dead than live as a 165 cm man and I'm not kidding about it. It disgusted me for years. Yes, I'm vain, I accept it. I'd rather be a murderer than a short guy. LL is my salvation, there hasn't been a single day I regretted my decision. It's breaking the body for healing the hurt soul. If I was 173 cm or above, I wouldn't do LL. I would lock myself into the gym and get closer to a godlike physique. My minimum limit is 173 cm ( 5'8 ). Anything above that limit and if you still want LL, you might be better off by thinking again and dedicating yourself to working out. If you have doubts, then don't do it.
If your growth plates have fused, there's no other way for height increase except surgery. All other solutions are temporary (stretching, yoga, pilates). An endocrinologist can tell you whether if your growth plates have fused.
I was reading your post early in the morning and was confused asking myself when did I write it? :-) I have same thoughts as u. I think this forum will bring better results for future LL patients. Most of them won't go beyond 5cm, most of them will pick their dr really carefully and if they go to third world hospitals they are well educated about LL so drs can't fool them, and so on and so o.. If there weren't guys who did LL and unselfishly shared their experience with us we could follow that idiot from old forum and ruined our lives just like that. If I had money I would pay the operation to each of u suffering from any kind of pain because LL.
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Christ isak, you me both brother feel the same.
But i can be 5'8 and let me tell you it still bad. Not make you guys that have that as a goal feel dishearted but shee you need to be 5'11 to see the benifts of life.
At 5'8 They are still gonna look as you as short but not SHORT enough to be called out on a regular basis know im sayin'. And you are still not gonna gain any more respect when going out clubbing or trying to act little bit dominant.
5'11 or die tryin.
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Clubbing is such a minute part of life though. 5'8 may not be tall enough for those wanting a height gain in order to enjoy all the social privileges that come with being tall, but for those wanting to enjoy a life without the constant ridicule toward their height, 5'8 is more than enough in most countries. I'm sure there are many people who will enjoy life immensely at an average height simply because their height is no longer a disadvantage.
I think of it like this:
Short = social disadvantage
Average = neutral ground
Tall = social privilege
If you're in the middle and have other things going for you like a well built body and/or an endearing personality, or even a respectable job, then your height will be a non-factor in most situations. Plus, I think there's more of a psychological benefit for short guys becoming closer to average than for average guys becoming tall.
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My minimum limit is 173 cm ( 5'8 ). Anything above that limit and if you still want LL, you might be better off by thinking again and dedicating yourself to working out. If you have doubts, then don't do it.
How will working out solve a person's height insecurity? I think leg lengtheners who are taller than 5' 8" make you feel insecure about yourself because you suffer from height-envy, or else you wouldn't be constantly whinging about it so much.
Taller = better. It's not that difficult to understand. I do draw the line at 6' 2", being taller than that is an inconvenience, but to each his own.
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Christ isak, you me both brother feel the same.
But i can be 5'8 and let me tell you it still bad. Not make you guys that have that as a goal feel dishearted but shee you need to be 5'11 to see the benifts of life.
At 5'8 They are still gonna look as you as short but not SHORT enough to be called out on a regular basis know im sayin'. And you are still not gonna gain any more respect when going out clubbing or trying to act little bit dominant.
5'11 or die tryin.
I agree with this although in my experience the limit for being respected and being able to act dominant is 5'10, even in a country such as Sweden where there are lots of tall people. I have never heard of anybody that height being referred to as short, even in company of much taller men. At that height you are pretty much taller than 90% of the women you will meet as well.
Also there is a guy who fights in the UFC, he used to be a heavyweight and was undefeated there, Daniel Cormier, he is 5'10 and was destroying skilled giants like Josh Barnett (6'3), Bigfoot Silva (6'4) and Frank Mir (6'3). Now he moved down to LHW division though.
Guys like that make me feel that at 5'10, you will never be looked at as short, and because of that nothing is stopping you from being dominant. Being average is enough to be able to be dominant imo, its only when you are less than average that it becomes a hinderance, for the same reason that you dont have to be bodybuilder build to be dominant, you can be slightly muscular and that would be enough.
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@Frank Garrett
Nah, I don't care about leg lengtheners above 5'8. To each his own. If they want to do it, then fine, best of luck. 5'8 is still short in the United States, but it's the -supposed- male average in Turkey. I'll be fine. Working out solves a lot of insecurities. True, it doesn't solve height insecurity, but there's no need for me to be insecure of my height at 5'8. Yes, taller is better, but LL is expensive and requires time. I can't do a second LL now, so I'll keep it out of my mind and go on with my life. Once again, working out raises serotonin levels, makes one feel good about oneself, introduces discipline into one's life and is a more attainable goal than LL. At 5'5 I felt working out was meaningless. At 5'8 there are guys like Mark Wahlberg, Zac Efron or Taylor Lautner with good bodies (bulky or lean) as examples of what one can do if he works out. I also think a 5'8 guy with a muscular body is better than a skinny 6'0 guy any given day. At 5'5, however, no one cares. Did I make my point?
If you look at height dysphoria in a larger frame (body dysmorphic disorder) you'll understand.
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The other side topic between Frank and Chris can be discuss via Pm, back to the original topic.
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working out does not release serotnoning? levels, It is the people who already is at a low bodyfat the "10% bodyfat" people that looks them selves in the mirror and gets a boost in mind from that. So a fatty wont get happy after working out UNTIL he see the results later on. THEN it was the reflection in the mirror not the actuall physical activity.
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I think he meant endorphines
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2572819/Chinese-woman-21-surgery-extend-stunted-left-leg-23-CENTIMETRES.html
anyone heard of this?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2572819/Chinese-woman-21-surgery-extend-stunted-left-leg-23-CENTIMETRES.html
anyone heard of this?
Interesting article. It's great that her doctors are confident that she will be able to walk normally.
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Walking would be very tough even after knee/hip replacements. Those joints were just smashed.
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It is possible for people with bone deformities and leg discrepancy to lengthen to that extent.
Despite their bone(s) being shorter they still have fully developed/longer muscles, blood vessels and nerves therefore lengthening to such proportion is possible without much complications.
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I don't know if the writer is exaggerating or the doctors are very optimist. Tough to give false hopes on walking normally.
All the best for her.
It is possible for people with bone deformities and leg discrepancy to lengthen to that extent.
Despite their bone(s) being shorter they still have fully developed/longer muscles, blood vessels and nerves therefore lengthening to such proportion is possible without much complications.
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I was talking to a patient who did 8cm on tibias. He suggest to have a consultation with a doctor to have your legs x-rayed and find the ideal amount to lengthen via your bone length.
He believe that 5 cm is always safest but what really matters is the percentage increase in the tibia. Around a 20% increase is best which is about 7.5cm for most people. The taller you are the longer your tibia will be and the more you can lengthen safely. We were talking about tibias, I suppose this apply for femurs too.
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I was talking to a patient who did 8cm on tibias. He suggest to have a consultation with a doctor to have your legs x-rayed and find the ideal amount to lengthen via your bone length.
He believe that 5 cm is always safest but what really matters is the percentage increase in the tibia. Around a 20% increase is best which is about 7.5cm for most people. The taller you are the longer your tibia will be and the more you can lengthen safely. We were talking about tibias, I suppose this apply for femurs too.
So does this mean that if you already have long tibias, then you should be able to lengthen them more than a person with short tibias?
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Yes
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Yes
Good for me i guess since i have pretty long tibias, although it seems counterproductive to this surgery, people with short tibias are able to lengthen longer without it looking weird, but physically it will be harder for them to do it.
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So does this mean that if you already have long tibias, then you should be able to lengthen them more than a person with short tibias?
Correct, that's exactly the point. That is your bone length as determined by Xray. The longer the length, the more you can lengthen.
From Dr Donghoon Lee website - it is recommended that lengthening is performed under 20% of the original bone length, and by an experienced surgeon.
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So much for new paradigm with leechlet going for 10cm in femur and rgkey
having done 9cm in tibia and going for femurs with both these guys being below
165cm to begin with.
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So much for new paradigm with leechlet going for 10cm in femur and rgkey
having done 9cm in tibia and going for femurs with both these guys being below
165cm to begin with.
Are they able to run and walk normally? They are not fully recovered yet, so you can't tell how their results are. I doubt everyone can do 9-10cm without complications.
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Well leech is using internal method which helps TONS, if it was external then it would be a complete downey move to do 8-9 cm on femurs.
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After much thought, I have decided that we need to do 2 surgeries or none at all.
Our bodies are designed to work in a mechanical way that nature engineered for millenia.
Making one section of our legs longer than the the other section throws that whole balance out. We would need to learn how to run in a different way. Ergo, whatever we do to the tibs, we do to the fibs.
I am still for 7cm each. For me its realistic. :)
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After much thought, I have decided that we need to do 2 surgeries or none at all.
Our bodies are designed to work in a mechanical way that nature engineered for millenia.
Making one section of our legs longer than the the other section throws that whole balance out. We would need to learn how to run in a different way. Ergo, whatever we do to the tibs, we do to the fibs.
I am still for 7cm each. For me its realistic. :)
Hey Tomd, welcome back!
I agree with you. In life, there is never a perfect solution. You have to consider your original height, your means, and what you are willing to compromise in terms of proportion to reach your goal.
Some taller guys can talk about proportion, but for short guys, that may not be feasible.
Since I'm starting out quite short, I will probably comprise 2-3cm of disproportion to be able to reach my dream height. I agree with you, 7cm on each segment would work for me.
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One thing that people do notice is guys who have really long legs compared to their torso.
I saw an indian guy today who looked like he had LL when my friends pointed him out.
Obviously they are unaware of LL but they knew he was off. This is why I don't believe
height trumps proportions. People will notice.
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Check out this guy's proportions. Real life Slenderman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uecqTO2fP2g
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Lol!!
If there wasn't some nice women in that video it may be the worst video I have ever seen!!
It was still pretty awful though!
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Check out this guy's proportions. Real life Slenderman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uecqTO2fP2g
wow, I didnt know Greekster made a music video
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One thing that people do notice is guys who have really long legs compared to their torso.
I saw an indian guy today who looked like he had LL when my friends pointed him out.
Obviously they are unaware of LL but they knew he was off. This is why I don't believe
height trumps proportions. People will notice.
I hold a different opinion here. If you are below average or even just average, extra height, in general, garners you higher respect from your peers and much more attention from the ladies. That is of course if you lengthen realistically; if you are lengthening 11cm on your femurs, for example, you'll look great with clothes on, but probably pretty weird at the beach, unless of course you started out with some pretty long tibias. And besides 11cm on one bone segment is really not safe anyways.
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I used to think that I could do 10 cm on my tibs, but after reading through the forums it's obvious that's asking for trouble, plus no doctor should really even allow that. I'm already 5'7" and want to be 5'11". That's why im thinking do 5-6 on tibs and 5-4 on femurs. It seems also that externals are the way to go. Forget the nails. Sure frames for longer but at least you can save the knee.
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I used to think that I could do 10 cm on my tibs, but after reading through the forums it's obvious that's asking for trouble, plus no doctor should really even allow that. I'm already 5'7" and want to be 5'11". That's why im thinking do 5-6 on tibs and 5-4 on femurs. It seems also that externals are the way to go. Forget the nails. Sure frames for longer but at least you can save the knee.
You have virtually the same mindset as me: do a safe amount of lengthening, save your knees from terrible pain, and do externals...I'm also 5'7 (170cm) and though I'd love to be 5'11, I don't know if I'd have the will to go through it twice. I think I could do 2 surgeries no problem, but it's the lengthening part and fear of incredible boredom and life flying by that makes me want to do this only once. I want to do this once and get to at the very minimum 5'9, and maybe 5'9.5 as that would be great to be the US average, and 5'10 if my body is feeling up to the challenge and I still look ok proportionally. And if were to get to 5'9.5 or 5'10 (which would be awesome) I would be satisfied enough as I've worn lifts at those heights and feel pretty average, I am able to attract women just fine, and I feel overall confident enough at those heights.
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I used to think that I could do 10 cm on my tibs, but after reading through the forums it's obvious that's asking for trouble, plus no doctor should really even allow that. I'm already 5'7" and want to be 5'11". That's why im thinking do 5-6 on tibs and 5-4 on femurs. It seems also that externals are the way to go. Forget the nails. Sure frames for longer but at least you can save the knee.
Hey !
So, you're saying internal nails probably lead to permanent knee pain/issues ?
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Hey !
So, you're saying internal nails probably lead to permanent knee pain/issues ?
Tbh, I can't say for certain as I've never done it. I'm just using my own common sense. no nail through the kneecap in my mind seems like it'd save you from knee pains. I'm still doing as much research as I can as I won't be ready for at least a year financially for this.
Plus doing a smaller amount such as 5cm. I'm 5'7" and I don't want care to be 6ft. I'd be more than happy at 5'11". 4 inches split between two parts is more realistic than 3+ in one. Athletic ability is a HUGE factor. I need to be able to perform at my current level
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I used to think that I could do 10 cm on my tibs, but after reading through the forums it's obvious that's asking for trouble, plus no doctor should really even allow that. I'm already 5'7" and want to be 5'11". That's why im thinking do 5-6 on tibs and 5-4 on femurs. It seems also that externals are the way to go. Forget the nails. Sure frames for longer but at least you can save the knee.
This is exactly the case I am in, I recently just did 5.5 on femurs and I'm considering doing 4 cm on tibias in a few years and can't decide between using another internal (maybe the precice) and going with externals on tibias. If price isn't a factor, the precice for tibias if you are looking for a smaller gain such as 4-4.5 cm imo can't be beat.
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This is exactly the case I am in, I recently just did 5.5 on femurs and I'm considering doing 4 cm on tibias in a few years and can't decide between using another internal (maybe the precice) and going with externals on tibias. If price isn't a factor, the precice for tibias if you are looking for a smaller gain such as 4-4.5 cm imo can't be beat.
What was your experience like? How are you doing? Do you have a diary?
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Hey !
So, you're saying internal nails probably lead to permanent knee pain/issues ?
There are studies showing that inserting a rod into the tibia has lead to persistent knee pain even after rod removal. Depending on the study you will see a different percentage, but there was one showing as high as 70% had that issue.
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Hey Kilo,
Have you done any LL or are considering? Would you do externals only?
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Personally for me, LON/LATN isn't even an option..even in my femurs, I wouldn't do nails, only externals for a 5cm gain. If people/results show external femurs for even small gains are a bad idea, then oh well, looks like I'll have to be happy with 5cm on my tibias.
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Hey Kilo,
Have you done any LL or are considering? Would you do externals only?
Will start lengthening this April. I'm not going to do externals. I'd prefer to do plate fixation.
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What was your experience like? How are you doing? Do you have a diary?
Pretty bad compared to other precice patients, but I did achieve my goal in the end so I can't complain too much.
Pretty good right now. I should be able to stand by the end of the month or early april.
Yes, I have a diary, I did the procedure with Dr. Donghoon Lee in south Korea. To sum it up, my right leg was not lengthening properly from the start (Dr. Lee thinks this was due to my incredibly fast bone callus formation in the right leg), I wasn't getting enough from each lengthening. At about 4 cm the device stopped lengthening completely and they had to do a second surgery and rebreak the bone. Afterwards, the device still didn't lengthen properly, but I was getting enough from each lengthening that I was able to hit my target of 5.4-5.5 cm eventually, putting me at 176.5 cm. It was fairly comfortable 99% of the time with the exception of a few moments that were incredibly painful.
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Hi Amatan.
Congrats for achieving your goal although, lots of hiccups there.
The answer may be obvious but still I want to know your general experience on LL. Would you recommend precice? Wound you recommend Dr Donghoon Lee?
Thanks.
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Hard to say so far, but based on patients I met who have done 6 or less cm lengthenings here (most Koreans are very conservative in how much they lengthen in comparison to Westerners, very rarely does anyone lengthen over 6.5cm here), they say they've regained all or pretty close to their previous athletic ability, although I have noticed that the femur patients as a whole recovered better than the tibia patients. One patient here who did 6 cm on tibias say his sprint speed for a certain distance I don't remember went from 12.0 seconds to 12.8 after two years post surgery, which I consider a pretty good recovery. Talking to a lot the patients made one trend stick out to me - stick to 6 cm or less if you want to recover very close to your pre-op athletic level. This is the main reason I decided to stick in the 5-6 cm range rather than go for my original target of 7.5 cm.
I believe the two cases of precice malfunctions here were more or less freak isolated incidents. Looking back on it objectively, I would still recommend the precice, the only disadvantage it has is that most doctors do not let you weight bear with it.
Dr. Lee is probably one of the best surgeons in the world for LL. It's something I've heard a lot of surgeons here say, and he is regarded as possibly the top orthopedic surgeon in the whole of South Korea in LL and deformity correction. Dr. Paley himself even said that he could not have done a better job with the surgery than Dr. Lee did when he was observing him.
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Looking back on it objectively, I would still recommend the precice, the only disadvantage it has is that most doctors do not let you weight bear with it.
Thanks for sharing this. I have observed the same thing with Turkish doctors, they are usually conservative and don't allow you to bear weight with Precice, even though it's technically possible. May I ask what level of weightbearing are you referring to? Were you on a wheelchair like me during your lengthening phase, or were you able to use crutches, at least for making transfers? Wish you a quick recovery.
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Does anyone have any experience or information on external femur lengthening for 4-6cm gains
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Reading this forum made me realize that it is actually better to lengthen 5cm on the femurs or at least 5.5cm. On the other hand there is a chance that people might not be satisfied.
If anyone could please help me and answer me this question. Are there people who lengthened on Dr. Guichet and have any complications with how much they lengthened?
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5 cm may seem insignificant just by looking at the number, but a 2 inch height gain makes a whole world of difference in actuality, especially if you're shorter to begin with.
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5 cm may seem insignificant just by looking at the number, but a 2 inch height gain makes a whole world of difference in actuality, especially if you're shorter to begin with.
I agree with you, but most people would say that doing such a surgery for 5 cm is not worth it
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At first I was planning on doing 7 but I don't think the potential complications are worth it. I plan on doing 5-5.5. Also I think 7 would make my tibs way too long. Guys with tibs about 7 cms longer than mine are about 6' tall and I am about 5'6" right now. I think that 5 cms makes a huge difference for most people.
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I agree with you, but most people would say that doing such a surgery for 5 cm is not worth it
Hey sadboy,
Just read your message. My surgery was screw up but I can walk/run. You can check my video from my diary.
My orthopaedic said the work that was done to my legs were actually an insult. The plates were all bent to begin with. My knee axis are way off causing x-leg or knock knee as they call it here. I was luckly to have no pain and to be able to walk/run again. But having x-leg kind of make it arkward to run with. I would need to wait another year for Canada to operate on me again. They will fix my x-legs and bent plate. My ortho will break one leg at a time and align it back straight again.
My dream for +6 femur in early 2015 has to be postpone now. I wonder what I will do with all the money I save up.
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to me 5 cm is not worth it, if I am going to spend close to 100K USD i better get ATLEAST 3cm or i will just wear lifts my whole life!
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There are studies showing that inserting a rod into the tibia has lead to persistent knee pain even after rod removal. Depending on the study you will see a different percentage, but there was one showing as high as 70% had that issue.
how about the femur? I'm considering doing internal road in femur.. don't decided the doctor yet.. but yeah I do think of the internal sometime, and maybe I'll add 3-4cm more to my femur.. .. but I don't want to damage my knee,! ..
seeing ppl who did LON/LATN I think they're doing fine like smallguy and others however, Sweden in the other hand has a lot of problems ..
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I think if you don't do too much like 8 or 9 cm you should be ok.
Just to be safe, doesn't matter which method, lengthen 5 to 6 cm max.
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nah, waste of money to only lengthen 5 cm, the increase will be so little that you could have not done the surgery at all.
7-7.5 or Don't do it at all.
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nah, waste of money to only lengthen 5 cm, the increase will be so little that you could have not done the surgery at all.
7-7.5 or Don't do it at all.
So doing 5 cm is almost nothing, but 45-50% more than nothing is huge.
Makes sense.
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Even 5 cm makes a significant difference on your legs' appearance. Being bedridden for two months, one thing I did for fun was keeping a ruler by my side at all times. I would place the ruler vertically to the ground and imagine standing on a box at 5 cm, 6 cm, 7 etc. on my former height to imagine how the difference would be.
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Thanks for sharing this. I have observed the same thing with Turkish doctors, they are usually conservative and don't allow you to bear weight with Precice, even though it's technically possible. May I ask what level of weightbearing are you referring to? Were you on a wheelchair like me during your lengthening phase, or were you able to use crutches, at least for making transfers? Wish you a quick recovery.
By the end of the month, full weightbearing (standing without crutches, taking first steps) should happen for me.
During lengthening and right now I am exactly like you are, on a wheelchair almost all the time. Dr. Lee only recently cleared me to stand with a walker and walk in place. I can't stand totally normally yet (I still have a bit of duck ass) but it felt amazing. Even though my eye level is only 3-3.5 cm taller than before (the rest will come as my back straightens), it is a huge difference in your perspective.
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Hey sadboy,
Just read your message. My surgery was screw up but I can walk/run. You can check my video from my diary.
My orthopaedic said the work that was done to my legs were actually an insult. The plates were all bent to begin with. My knee axis are way off causing x-leg or knock knee as they call it here. I was luckly to have no pain and to be able to walk/run again. But having x-leg kind of make it arkward to run with. I would need to wait another year for Canada to operate on me again. They will fix my x-legs and bent plate. My ortho will break one leg at a time and align it back straight again.
My dream for +6 femur in early 2015 has to be postpone now. I wonder what I will do with all the money I save up.
Thanks for replying and I'm so sorry to hear that your surgery was a screw up, after all this surgery isn't easy. Do you think 7 cm on the femurs will be ok and safe?
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Hard to say so far, but based on patients I met who have done 6 or less cm lengthenings here (most Koreans are very conservative in how much they lengthen in comparison to Westerners, very rarely does anyone lengthen over 6.5cm here), they say they've regained all or pretty close to their previous athletic ability, although I have noticed that the femur patients as a whole recovered better than the tibia patients. One patient here who did 6 cm on tibias say his sprint speed for a certain distance I don't remember went from 12.0 seconds to 12.8 after two years post surgery, which I consider a pretty good recovery. Talking to a lot the patients made one trend stick out to me - stick to 6 cm or less if you want to recover very close to your pre-op athletic level. This is the main reason I decided to stick in the 5-6 cm range rather than go for my original target of 7.5 cm.
4-6cm is the safe zone for athletic function. only go beyond that 4-6cm range if you think that the extra height is worth having, in exchange for an athletic function of 60-70% your current level.
your daily life function becomes affected at a higher cm level than this safe zone.
those who chose to lengthen between 6 and 7 centimeters recovered 100% in performing daily functions, BUT only recovered about 60-70% of their pre-LL athleticism when engaging in serious sports/strenuous activities
and above 7cm is an even greater decrease in function.
it is almost like after 5cm each additional cm is a new level of impairment. of course their are exceptions to the rule.
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I would disagree that 5cm on the femurs and/or tibias is necessarily the limit. I would go with what Dr. Paley says: 7 cm (or maybe slightly more) on the tibias and 8 cm on the femurs.
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ok. I look forward to your diary proving this claim. I hope you don't end up like Sweden RR.
I will pray for you. :)
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I would disagree that 5cm on the femurs and/or tibias is necessarily the limit. I would go with what Dr. Paley says: 7 cm (or maybe slightly more) on the tibias and 8 cm on the femurs.
I know you really want to get to 6'1" but if your going to do that much, you really would probably need 2 surgerys on each section (if that is possible). Your sitting height is the same to mine but it still would probably be best to go that route. I'm thinking of doing 4cms on my tibias and maybe 3-4 on my femurs which would put me in the 6'3.5-6'4" range (ideal height for footballer!)
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I know you really want to get to 6'1" but if your going to do that much, you really would probably need 2 surgerys on each section (if that is possible). Your sitting height is the same to mine but it still would probably be best to go that route. I'm thinking of doing 4cms on my tibias and maybe 3-4 on my femurs which would put me in the 6'3.5-6'4" range (ideal height for footballer!)
ideal height for footballer?? look at Lionel Messi , Maradona , etc... the tallest is Christiano CRonnie7 that is 184 or 6,1
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ideal height for footballer?? look at Lionel Messi , Maradona , etc... the tallest is Christiano CRonnie7 that is 184 or 6,1
He's american (notice how he says 6'3.5 instead of 192) so he means american football. Also I think CRonnie7 is 186CM not that I know much about sports.
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ideal height for footballer?? look at Lionel Messi , Maradona , etc... the tallest is Christiano CRonnie7 that is 184 or 6,1
Typical misunderstanding between football and American "football". Lol
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Just play Rugby, no misunderstandings, problem solved ;D
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Yeah, my plan is 7 cm on the tibias and 8 cm on the femurs. With that, I'll reach 184 cm, which might be slightly less than my goal, but is still alright.
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I love how short dudes worry with proportions, I m 6 feet and I m not preocupied by those things hehe
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Typical misunderstanding between football and American "football". Lol
im from Spain where the best football in the world is done :)
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im from Spain where the best football in the world is done :)
was*
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I love how short dudes worry with proportions, I m 6 feet and I m not preocupied by those things hehe
You should be.
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You should be.
the taller the more u can lemgthen
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Just play Rugby, no misunderstandings, problem solved ;D
Most people never even heard of Rugby in the U.S. we have a rugby team but don't know who it is.
But basically model height in America is 5'11.75-6'3" (was 6'2" but they upped it to 6'3" and have a select amount of men who are 6'4" but no one under 5'11" barefoot) baseball is 6'3", and American football ideal is preferably 6'3.5-6'5" (with 6'4" being sweet spot).
He's american (notice how he says 6'3.5 instead of 192) so he means american football. Also I think CRonnie7 is 186CM not that I know much about sports.
CRonnie7 was measured at a hair over 6'1" so yes that's equal to 186 cm (6'1.25")
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the taller the more u can lemgthen
But the difference should be very slight no? 178/170=1,047 and 188/180=1,044
So there is a 4,4% increase in 188 from 180 compared to 4,7 in 178 from 170. The difference is less than half a percent not very significant.
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But the difference should be very slight no? 178/170=1,047 and 188/180=1,044
So there is a 4,4% increase in 188 from 180 compared to 4,7 in 178 from 170. The difference is less than half a percent not very significant.
I don't think I can do more than 5cms each segment because I already have long legs. I will be just under %50 of my proportions for doing 10cms so I think I'll probably do "2 max on my tibias maybe even "1.5 to be even safer.
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In your opinions, anybody's opinion with reasonable experience on the matter, is lengthening 7 cm per limb too risky?
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In your opinions, anybody's opinion with reasonable experience on the matter, is lengthening 7 cm per limb too risky?
I don't think it's too risky, as long as you go to a good doctor.
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I don't think it's too risky, as long as you go to a good doctor.
That applied to both tibia and femurs ? Thank you for your answer
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Yes, both tibiae and femurs.
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I don't think it's too risky, as long as you go to a good doctor.
I think the rule of thumb is to lengthen a single segment no more than 20% of original bone length.
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I think the rule of thumb is to lengthen a single segment no more than 20% of original bone length.
Rule of thumb. 7.5-8 cm max.
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So did Crazy 6 do 3" on Tibias and 5" on femurs? What was the amount on each surgery?
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So did Crazy 6 do 3" on Tibias and 5" on femurs? What was the amount on each surgery?
16 cm total. 8cm on each i think it was. He looked recovered and good so that is great.
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16 cm total. 8cm on each i think it was. He looked recovered and good so that is great.
Do you know how old was he? How much in your opinion age factors in recovery?
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16 cm total. 8cm on each i think it was. He looked recovered and good so that is great
I thought he did 17 cm, and was more or less crippled for life.
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I thought he did 17 cm, and was more or less crippled for life.
Slim Tim was being sarcastic.
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I did 10 cm in my femurs and 7.5 cm in my tibias. At 6'3" I am too skinny for my height. Though steroids temporarily kept my weight fine for my height, I knew that I could not take steroids for the rest of my life and stopped. I cannot run and probably never will. If I could go back in time, I would have stopped at 6'1 or so.
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I did 10 cm in my femurs and 7.5 cm in my tibias. At 6'3" I am too skinny for my height. Though steroids temporarily kept my weight fine for my height, I knew that I could not take steroids for the rest of my life and stopped. I cannot run and probably never will. If I could go back in time, I would have stopped at 6'1 or so.
Hi Greekster, I remember you from way back in the day on the old forum. That's a shame you're unable to run. How's your walking? Do you get random aches and pains or anything?
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I thought he did 17 cm, and was more or less crippled for life.
I thought the same thing and the video he posted was very hard to watch.
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Greekster. Allthough I'm not considering going beyond 5cms each segment, can you at least walk?
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mr greekster :)
long time no hear. I am gratefull that you decided to post.
I appreciate vets opinions. and hope you stay and talk with us :) your opinion is invaluable.
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I did 10 cm in my femurs and 7.5 cm in my tibias. At 6'3" I am too skinny for my height. Though steroids temporarily kept my weight fine for my height, I knew that I could not take steroids for the rest of my life and stopped. I cannot run and probably never will. If I could go back in time, I would have stopped at 6'1 or so.
Have you gone to some PT clinics to see off they could do anything?
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Guys, I can walk fine, and at long distances too. But running is simply out of my reach. Almost 5 years since lengthening, so my conclusion is that I will never be able to run. I also lost interest in tall girls (the first 6 foot+ girl I asked out since my leg lengthening turned out to be gay!). It's actually girls 5'4" or shorter that I find the most attractive, and guess what, the height they like most on guys is 6 feet max!
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why did you to do 17 cm,that's insane, didn't know thee risks?
Do you have pain?
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Why can't you run? Is it too painful? What's the problem, exactly?
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Why can't you run? Is it too painful? What's the problem, exactly?
For the same reason why I could not run 1 month after I finished lengthening. I just can't. No pain when I try. I just can't do it anymore than I was able to do sumersaults before leg lengthening.
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What do you mean "you can't"? Do you try to run, and your legs just don't move? What are you talking about?
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Greekster,
Do you think you can't run because of lengthening on tibia, femur or both?
Can you bicycle (stationary bike) very fast?
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Hey Greekster,
Welcome back! You should start a thread. There is many questions which I would like to ask you! What does Dr. Betz say when you ask him about your recovery?
Btw, if you can post a current photo of your body to enlighten us regarding proportion that would be great.
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Guys, I can walk fine, and at long distances too. But running is simply out of my reach. Almost 5 years since lengthening, so my conclusion is that I will never be able to run. I also lost interest in tall girls (the first 6 foot+ girl I asked out since my leg lengthening turned out to be gay!). It's actually girls 5'4" or shorter that I find the most attractive, and guess what, the height they like most on guys is 6 feet max!
Would still rather be 6'2"+. Don't care if returns diminish after 6'0". But that's too bad you can't run.
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I did 10 cm in my femurs and 7.5 cm in my tibias. At 6'3" I am too skinny for my height. Though steroids temporarily kept my weight fine for my height, I knew that I could not take steroids for the rest of my life and stopped. I cannot run and probably never will. If I could go back in time, I would have stopped at 6'1 or so.
Do you need steroids in order to keep weight on your body?. I know that bone- fractures creates increased need for calories intake, but this goes for naturally tall men no?
You are enchanced thus your daily intake cant fluxuate that much from 2600 caloriers to 3000 maybe ?. Also you dont need steroids in order to gain weight that is just ignorance.
The reason you can barely run is because you have not developed any muscle tissue to support your body. Start to do 10x5 every day. including torso.
And just eat,eat,eat even when you are full you eat more. And this will probably mean that you will have to go up 6 in the morning to get your first workout and meal inplace. Stay away from choclad,milk,meat in order to get your stomach to calm down so it can begin to repair.
Start eat spinach,oatmeal,and alot of water 2x what youre drinking now.
And you be up and running in 6 months.
If your not?....start to plot world domination.
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Do you need steroids in order to keep weight on your body?. I know that bone- fractures creates increased need for calories intake, but this goes for naturally tall men no?
You are enchanced thus your daily intake cant fluxuate that much from 2600 caloriers to 3000 maybe ?. Also you dont need steroids in order to gain weight that is just ignorance.
The reason you can barely run is because you have not developed any muscle tissue to support your body. Start to do 10x5 every day. including torso.
And just eat,eat,eat even when you are full you eat more. And this will probably mean that you will have to go up 6 in the morning to get your first workout and meal inplace. Stay away from choclad,milk,meat in order to get your stomach to calm down so it can begin to repair.
Start eat spinach,oatmeal,and alot of water 2x what youre drinking now.
And you be up and running in 6 months.
If your not?....start to plot world domination.
He could also try out Stronglifts 5x5 to build some muscle in his legs. I don't know if he is able to squat or not.
But, seriously, he needs to see a doctor if he can't run. Something's obviously wrong.
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you guys need to stop throwing out random suggestions just so you can all listen to the lovely sounds of your own voices,
and instead actually wait for greekster to say why he thinks he cant run, or at least explain more symptoms or feelings.
a lot of the advice here is silly and dumb without more information to diagnose.
you don't even know if its a biomechanical problem, a muscle problem, a fascia problem, a soft tissue ligament problem.
how about instead of telling him advice you just be quiet and actually listen to someone else other than yourselves for once everyone. why don't you try to get more information before jumping to random conclusions.
at this current time no one can answer anything until greekster gives more information, there's just not enough info available.
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you guys need to stop throwing out random suggestions just so you can all listen to the lovely sounds of your own voices,
and instead actually wait for greekster to say why he thinks he cant run, or at least explain more symptoms or feelings.
a lot of the advice here is silly and dumb without more information to diagnose.
you don't even know if its a biomechanical problem, a muscle problem, a fascia problem, a soft tissue ligament problem.
how about instead of telling him advice you just be quiet and actually listen to someone else other than yourselves for once everyone. why don't you try to get more information before jumping to random conclusions.
at this current time no one can answer anything until greekster gives more information, there's just not enough info available.
That's why I said he could possibly try stronglifts 5x5 if it was a muscular problem, and if he was able to squat. I didn't say to definitely try it. That's also why I said he should really see a doctor, because all we on the forums can do is make uneducated guesses as to what his problem is.
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I did 10 cm in my femurs and 7.5 cm in my tibias. At 6'3" I am too skinny for my height. Though steroids temporarily kept my weight fine for my height, I knew that I could not take steroids for the rest of my life and stopped. I cannot run and probably never will. If I could go back in time, I would have stopped at 6'1 or so.
Oh my god, that sounds horrible. I'm sorry things got so messed up for you mate but surely there must be some way to regain your running ability?
Whenever there is life there is hope.
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Oh my god, that sounds horrible. I'm sorry things got so messed up for you mate but surely there must be some way to regain your running ability?
Whenever there is life there is hope.
perhaps see a doctor for an opinion?
sports medicine or something?
or orthopedics...
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what do you all think if sysop/apotheosis now after all his lengthening ?
(http://i60.tinypic.com/vgvaf.jpg)
his hair fell out because he took steroids to look like that, you can't do LL then lose 10% body fat and gain muscle steroids = hair loss and finastride = loss of testerone hair grows back however your dck doesn't work as finastride causes DHT the hormone your penis has or you can barely see it to be smaller.
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For the same reason why I could not run 1 month after I finished lengthening. I just can't. No pain when I try. I just can't do it anymore than I was able to do sumersaults before leg lengthening.
Looks like stem cell research should pick up pace!
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his hair fell out because he took steroids to look like that, you can't do LL then lose 10% body fat and gain muscle steroids = hair loss and finastride = loss of testerone hair grows back however your dck doesn't work as finastride causes DHT the hormone your penis has or you can barely see it to be smaller.
Or maybe its because he is in his 40s. He has done hair transplant so i doubt his hair is falling off from one cycle.
Apo always had that juicy upperbody. The legs are impressive and could be hard work. You dont need steroids at all after ll. I mean you loose 99% of what you gained in that cycle when you come off either way. I bet he had good muscle memory and that made him get great gains rather quickly.
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his hair fell out because he took steroids to look like that, you can't do LL then lose 10% body fat and gain muscle steroids = hair loss and finastride = loss of testerone hair grows back however your dck doesn't work as finastride causes DHT the hormone your penis has or you can barely see it to be smaller.
I'm no expert but you don't need steroids to look like that.
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I think he looks great, and I wish the best for him.
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My legs were skinny even before I did leg lengthening in 2009. During lengthening my legs became super-skinny to the point where I could not stand freely for more than 10 seconds. My legs are still skinny now, but at least I can stand for hours now before I get tired. But I think after 2 hours or so my legs will get too weak (haven't tested it yet). So I guess that might explain why I cannot run? To be honest, I really don't care that much that I can't run, because there has never been a situation where I needed to. I just stated it so that you might not be surprised if you cannot run afterwards either.
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My legs were skinny even before I did leg lengthening in 2009. During lengthening my legs became super-skinny to the point where I could not stand freely for more than 10 seconds. My legs are still skinny now, but at least I can stand for hours now before I get tired. But I think after 2 hours or so my legs will get too weak (haven't tested it yet). So I guess that might explain why I cannot run? To be honest, I really don't care that much that I can't run, because there has never been a situation where I needed to. I just stated it so that you might not be surprised if you cannot run afterwards either.
No offense, but you did your lengthening with Dr. Betz. He doesn't do any preop prepartion for large amounts of lengthening like Dr. Guichet does.
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My legs were skinny even before I did leg lengthening in 2009. During lengthening my legs became super-skinny to the point where I could not stand freely for more than 10 seconds. My legs are still skinny now, but at least I can stand for hours now before I get tired. But I think after 2 hours or so my legs will get too weak (haven't tested it yet). So I guess that might explain why I cannot run? To be honest, I really don't care that much that I can't run, because there has never been a situation where I needed to. I just stated it so that you might not be surprised if you cannot run afterwards either.
you're 190 cm now aren't you?
how much should you have done in order not to cope with your current problems?
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My legs were skinny even before I did leg lengthening in 2009. During lengthening my legs became super-skinny to the point where I could not stand freely for more than 10 seconds. My legs are still skinny now, but at least I can stand for hours now before I get tired. But I think after 2 hours or so my legs will get too weak (haven't tested it yet). So I guess that might explain why I cannot run? To be honest, I really don't care that much that I can't run, because there has never been a situation where I needed to. I just stated it so that you might not be surprised if you cannot run afterwards either.
There are no blacks where you live?
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There are no blacks where you live?
Damn, lol
Hopefully everyone has a sense of humor about this one
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Damn, lol
Hopefully everyone has a sense of humor about this one
Many people with a sense of humor and many depressed guys. This forum is creepy.
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Casually bumping a must read 5 year old thread. No fu.cks given either *shrug*
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I personally want 8cm femurs, but 5cm femur + 5cm tibia is so much more expensive and painful. Not sure if 5cm femur would be enough.